DCAU problem

[bighate]

DCAU already has problems with differing power levels, Shonen animes, like One Piece, Bleach, Naruto, and DBZ, all have incredibly overpowered characters.


Why does the DCAU need limits for the characters while shonen anime characters can get as strong as they want?.

[Silverstar]

DCAU already has problems with differing power levels, Shonen animes, like One Piece, Bleach, Naruto, and DBZ, all have incredibly overpowered characters.


Why does the DCAU need limits for the characters while shonen anime characters can get as strong as they want?.

Because the DCAU isn't anime. Different countries, different authors, different rules.

[bighate]

So thats why DCAU characters are so weak while shonen anime characters are getting stronger with no limits?.

[Silverstar]

So thats why DCAU characters are so weak while shonen anime characters are getting stronger with no limits?.

No offense, but that last statement sounds like flamebait. One style isn't definitively better or worse than the other; they're just different.

Something isn't a "problem" just because you personally don't agree with it.

[Blackstar]

So thats why DCAU characters are so weak while shonen anime characters are getting stronger with no limits?.

Is this one of those "USANIMIATON SUXX!!! ANIME RULZZZ!!! Anime >>>>>>>>>USAnimation" threads? Because if it is, I see this discussion going nowhere, and fast too. It's only a matter of time before this gets locked.

[Wonderwall]

No offense, but that last statement sounds like flamebait. One style isn't definitively better or worse than the other; they're just different.

Especially when the name of the poster is bighate. This could get ugly quick.

[bighate]

No this is not a flamebait topic I was just wanting to know why the DCAU needs limits thats all


This is not about flaming.


Hey My name is bighate because I like that Billy and Mandy character named hate.

[Wonderwall]

fair enough. The characters have limits because the creators chose to put said limits on these characters. In anime this isn't always the case, where many shows have lots of over powered characters fighting over powered characters and usually a lot of exposition. It's different styles, over here that style would be considered "bad writing" but in Japan story structures are quite a bit different.

[Blackstar]

We really can't judge a USAnimated cartoon by anime standards or vice-versa. They're just different, that's all.

[CyberCubed]

Bruce Timm said if Superman was all-powerful and could destroy a planet or something, there would be no show.

I liked the fact that Superman wasn't all powerful. Almost all his villains were just as strong as he was.

The fact that a guy from Earth like Parasite could give Superman a run for his money is what made the show good. Superman was never "invincible" he was about on-par with all the other people with powers.

Bruce Timm is a genius.

[The Weed Of Cri]

No this is not a flamebait topic I was just wanting to know why the DCAU needs limits thats all

Because limitations provide more dramatic storytelling opportunities. They also force characters to use ingenuity and tactics rather than simply overpowering their enemies, which also makes for better storytelling.

[Raidon Makoto]

BTAS Batman would defeat Goku before the first commercial break. 'Nuff said.

[bighate]

So limitations provide more dramatic storytelling and opportunities.

[Blackstar]

BTAS Batman would defeat Goku before the first commercial break. 'Nuff said.

And Justice League/Unlimited Batman could beat the entire Saiyan army just by blinking at them.

[DarthGonzo]

Where would the drama be if the DCAU characters could get as strong as they want?

[bighate]

Bruce Timm said if Superman was all-powerful and could destroy a planet or something, there would be no show.

I liked the fact that Superman wasn't all powerful. Almost all his villains were just as strong as he was.

The fact that a guy from Earth like Parasite could give Superman a run for his money is what made the show good. Superman was never "invincible" he was about on-par with all the other people with powers.

Bruce Timm is a genius.



So thats why the makers of the DCAU want him to be toned down.

[BigFatHairyDeal]

Bruce Timm said if Superman was all-powerful and could destroy a planet or something, there would be no show.

I liked the fact that Superman wasn't all powerful. Almost all his villains were just as strong as he was.

The fact that a guy from Earth like Parasite could give Superman a run for his money is what made the show good. Superman was never "invincible" he was about on-par with all the other people with powers.

Bruce Timm is a genius.

Timm gets a lot of flack on the DC boards for his interpretation of Superman, and at the risk of getting flamed myself, I kind of agree. The idea of Superman is not to be barely better than or equal to his enemies, it's to blow them out of the water. The trick is to do it in clever and memorable ways.

Limitations on abilities help, but there is a drawback. Think of what happened in the first season or two with Green Lantern. A lot of GL fans felt robbed because they didn't give him expansive use of his abilities.

Answering the original post, I'll just say that's the direction they decided to go. Keep the characters consistent as opposed to making an ongoing arms race of new and growing powers.

[bighate]

We all know DCAU Superman is not so god-like to be an unstoppable force. No turning back time, breathing in space, or hyperactivating his molecules for a fast jaunt between dimensions. When he does superhuman feats, he has to put some sweat into it. Superman is not totally invulnerable, either. He can bruise. He can bleed. He can conceivably die. It would take something akin to a megaton bomb going off in his face, but it could happen. Even a blast from a heavy artillery shell might knock him out temporarily or place him in a comatose state.

[bighate]

So it would be bad if the DCAU characters were get stronger & stronger?

[AlgeaX]

So it would be bad if the DCAU characters were get stronger & stronger?

Thing is if you have a hero who keeps getting more and more powerful with every episode then it becomes harder to create credible villains for him. Plus it would really shatter the suspension of disbelief if Superman went around vaporising galaxies with his sneeze. Personally I find overpowered heroes boring as hell, gimme a plucky underdog any day.

[bighate]

How come the DCAU creators do not want the heroes to get stronger & stronger and get upgrades. Why do they always leave the characters the same?.

[Aldrius]

Because they like drama and character more than gimmicks and villain grinding?

[Jan van Ooyen]

I'd say it's what seperates the 2,,

I mean some DCAU shows (batman TAS:D ) are somewhat a lot more realistic then almost every anime i've ever seen. And this aint a flame on anime but you can't compare the two imo Xcept for gotham knight.

Sorry i came up with some things right after i posted :sweat:

DCAU is more about telling a story each episode. a REAL story with real emotions. of course there's the action but that's only half the episode. I'ts more about the characters and emotions and conflict. That's the kind of thing that Anime lacks sometimes. The story is there but i miss the dialogue and emotion. I'm taking my opinion in anime's that i've seen off course. Still. I've never came accross anything, Anime, USAnimation or any other cartoon that could match up or even come close to Batman TAS. It's an almost perfect take on how cartoons should be. And one of the reasons is that the main character isn't all high and mighty like Goku or naruto. It's because the character is human, and we get human dialogue and human emotions that we can relate to in our own lives. And no one can shoot a kamehameha or a shadow clone jutsu :D But i guess that is and always will be my opinion:sweat:

[Temple Fugate]

DCAU is more about telling a story each episode. a REAL story with real emotions. of course there's the action but that's only half the episode. I'ts more about the characters and emotions and conflict. That's the kind of thing that Anime lacks sometimes. The story is there but i miss the dialogue and emotion. I'm taking my opinion in anime's that i've seen off course. Still. I've never came accross anything, Anime, USAnimation or any other cartoon that could match up or even come close to Batman TAS. It's an almost perfect take on how cartoons should be. And one of the reasons is that the main character isn't all high and mighty like Goku or naruto. It's because the character is human, and we get human dialogue and human emotions that we can relate to in our own lives.
That's it exactly. If I may add a few more technical points...

From a story writing perspective, a lot of fighting anime run into trouble when it comes to the longevity of a series. The easiest example is, of course, Dragonball Z. It lasted almost 300 episodes, much longer than even its creator intended. But if you watch any given arc, the ultimate solution in every story is exactly the same. How do we beat Vegeta? Train and get stronger. How do we beat Frieza? Train and get stronger. How do we beat the Androids? Cell? Buu? Train and get stronger.

Repetition does not captivate an audience. Furthermore, once a bad guy is defeated, they rarely return, and even when they do, the good guys have become so powerful that the bad guys pose almost no threat. Writers have to keep creating stronger and more formidable opponents.

Superman's and Batman's rogues galleries can pop up again and again and again and still challenge the heroes. Nobody thinks "Oh, well the Joker can't possibly beat Batman this time. Batman's power level is WAY higher now."

Superheroes have to rely not only on their superpowers, but also their ingenuity. Take Mr. Mxyzptlk. That's one villain Superman could never beat with super-strength or heat vision. He had to use his mind to think of a way to TRICK him. No fighting involved.

Yes, Naruto and others have used clever tricks to defeat enemies before, but almost always those tricks are used in a fight in order to allow the hero to come in and deliver a crushing blow. Superman is an example of how you don't always need to be strong to win a victory. That's the kind of message that resonates with people.

In the interest of full disclosure, I like DBZ and Naruto and Gurren Lagann and all sorts of anime. They're fun to watch on a different level than the DCAU. Do I think the DCAU is written better? Yes. But I enjoy all of it just the same because of the variety. Sometimes I like turning my mind off and watching an explosive, manically-animated ninja fight.

But I'll never hold Goku or Naruto in the high regard that I hold Superman and Batman, because Superman and Batman are characters I can believe in and aspire to. They tackle ordinary day-to-day problems just like the rest of us, while also dealing with extraordinary crises. I believe that gives them a perspective that most anime fighting heroes don't have.

[frostedone]

That's it exactly. If I may add a few more technical points...

From a story writing perspective, a lot of fighting anime run into trouble when it comes to the longevity of a series. The easiest example is, of course, Dragonball Z. It lasted almost 300 episodes, much longer than even its creator intended. But if you watch any given arc, the ultimate solution in every story is exactly the same. How do we beat Vegeta? Train and get stronger. How do we beat Frieza? Train and get stronger. How do we beat the Androids? Cell? Buu? Train and get stronger.

Repetition does not captivate an audience. Furthermore, once a bad guy is defeated, they rarely return, and even when they do, the good guys have become so powerful that the bad guys pose almost no threat. Writers have to keep creating stronger and more formidable opponents.

Superman's and Batman's rogues galleries can pop up again and again and again and still challenge the heroes. Nobody thinks "Oh, well the Joker can't possibly beat Batman this time. Batman's power level is WAY higher now."

Superheroes have to rely not only on their superpowers, but also their ingenuity. Take Mr. Mxyzptlk. That's one villain Superman could never beat with super-strength or heat vision. He had to use his mind to think of a way to TRICK him. No fighting involved.

Yes, Naruto and others have used clever tricks to defeat enemies before, but almost always those tricks are used in a fight in order to allow the hero to come in and deliver a crushing blow. Superman is an example of how you don't always need to be strong to win a victory. That's the kind of message that resonates with people.

In the interest of full disclosure, I like DBZ and Naruto and Gurren Lagann and all sorts of anime. They're fun to watch on a different level than the DCAU. Do I think the DCAU is written better? Yes. But I enjoy all of it just the same because of the variety. Sometimes I like turning my mind off and watching an explosive, manically-animated ninja fight.

But I'll never hold Goku or Naruto in the high regard that I hold Superman and Batman, because Superman and Batman are characters I can believe in and aspire to. They tackle ordinary day-to-day problems just like the rest of us, while also dealing with extraordinary crises. I believe that gives them a perspective that most anime fighting heroes don't have.

My thoughts exactly.

The way I see it, limiting the character's powers gave the writers more chances to tell better stories.

Look at it like this: If Superman was ramped up to his Pre-Crisis comic or even his Superfriends cartoon levels of power, no episode would be over 5 minutes long with out massive Plot Induced Stupidity. Same thing with the Flash. No fight would last longer that 1 minute.

Instead limiting their powers gave them more slack to tell better, more fleshed out stories, and wrap up arcs reletively quickly. Pklush the characters are easier to relate to and we get to see more of their personal lives and see them interact with others. We get to see more character development too.

Look at a typical DBZ arc, they are all the same:

1. Train.
2.Fight for 10 episodes.
3.Loose.
4. Train more/Go SSJ.
5. Fight for another 10 episodes.
6. Beat the Big bad.
7. New Big Bad comes.
8. Repeat.

[bighate]

I could see this if the DCAU characters good or bad fought the shonen anime characters, the DCAU characters would lose, because the shonen anime characters are more powerful.


DCAU: Characters remain the same and are weak.
Shonen anime: characters get stronger and get upgrades for powers & abilities.



See what I mean.

[Temple Fugate]

I could see this if the DCAU characters good or bad fought the shonen anime characters, the DCAU characters would lose, because the shonen anime characters are more powerful.You're comparing apples to oranges here. They would never need to fight each other.

Shonen anime characters and DCAU characters are the products of two different cultures with two completely different motivations for designing their heroes.

It makes no difference whether DCAU heroes or shonen anime heroes would win in a battle. They operate on two completely different levels. That's like asking "Would a soccer player beat a chess player?" It depends on what game they play. The argument is simply irrelevant.

[AlgeaX]

I could see this if the DCAU characters good or bad fought the shonen anime characters, the DCAU characters would lose, because the shonen anime characters are more powerful.


DCAU: Characters remain the same and are weak.
Shonen anime: characters get stronger and get upgrades for powers & abilities.



See what I mean.

So what? Doomsday would probably squish the Joker in a straight up fight, does that make him the better character?

[Silverstar]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bighate http://forums.toonzone.net/images/buttons/wf/viewpost.gif (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?p=3116096#post3116096)
I could see this if the DCAU characters good or bad fought the shonen anime characters, the DCAU characters would lose, because the shonen anime characters are more powerful.


You're comparing apples to oranges here. They would never need to fight each other.

Shonen anime characters and DCAU characters are the products of two different cultures with two completely different motivations for designing their heroes.

It makes no difference whether DCAU heroes or shonen anime heroes would win in a battle. They operate on two completely different levels. That's like asking "Would a soccer player beat a chess player?" It depends on what game they play. The argument is simply irrelevant.

YES. Thank you. This logic is the precise reason that I usually try to stay out of fanboy-induced "VS" arguments. Most of the time, they just break down to people placing characters who have no reason or chance of ever fighting each other (save for fan fiction) duking it out.


DCAU: Characters remain the same and are weak.
Shonen anime: characters get stronger and get upgrades for powers & abilities.



See what I mean.


So what? Doomsday would probably squish the Joker in a straight up fight, does that make him the better character?

Precisely. being more powerful doesn't make a character better. There's more to good characters than just how many powers they have.

Majin Buu could, and would, annihilate Lex Luthor if the 2 of them ever came to blows. But does that mean that Buu is a better character than Lex?

Lex Luthor=deep, multi-layered, complex and compelling personality.

Majin Buu=simple-minded, one-dimensional Gary Stu.

I rest my case.

[Wonderwall]

Is there really any more point to this thread?

[Blackstar]

How come the DCAU creators do not want the heroes to get stronger & stronger and get upgrades. Why do they always leave the characters the same?.

Because if the DCAU characters kept getting more powerful after every battle, eventually, they would get so powerful that no one except gods would present a challenge for them. Omnipotence doesn't lend itself to very compelling stories. How is one supposed to write for a character who can wipe out an army just by blinking at them? It's more interesting when evil at least stands a chance.


Originally Posted by bighate
DCAU: Characters remain the same and are weak.
Shonen anime: characters get stronger and get upgrades for powers & abilities.



See what I mean?I see that the basis of your entire argument is "More powers = Better character". There's more to characters than just how powerful they are, you know. Some writers actually take the time to develop their characters' personalities. It isn't always about fighting and blasting.Take a character like Cell, for instance. Sure, he could destroy entire planets with his pinky finger, but no one cares about what sort of person he is. But conversely, on the DCAU, some of the most popular characters introduced in Justice League Unlimited--Green Arrow, The Question--became hugely popular despite their having no powers at all. It doesn't matter who could beat who in a hypothetical fanboy battle. Really, who would win would depend who was writing the story and what audience it was written for. The characters can be however strong or weak their creators want them to be because they're (wait for it) fictional!

[BigFatHairyDeal]

Just to add another point, the way DCU and DCAU characters are written, it's physically impossible for them to become significantly stronger than they currently are. There are a few exceptions, but it's not as though they can tap into surrounding mystical energies and become more powerful. The Western heroes have mostly concrete explanations of how their powers are derived, and as such, there's generally a demonstrative limit to their capabilities.

[Silverstar]

Just to add another point, the way DCU and DCAU characters are written, it's physically impossible for them to become significantly stronger than they currently are. There are a few exceptions, but it's not as though they can tap into surrounding mystical energies and become more powerful. The Western heroes have mostly concrete explanations of how their powers are derived, and as such, there's generally a demonstrative limit to their capabilities.

Exactly. To reiterate what was already stated back on page 1, the DCAU heroes and shonen anime heroes are just different. Different countries, different sensibilities, different authors, different rules. It's pointless to try and enforce the rules of one onto the other; the same rules just don't apply. One style isn't any better or worse than the other; they're just different. Again, it's apples and oranges.

[bighate]

How would the DCAU be if the heroes got stronger & stronger and got upgrades.

[Temple Fugate]

How would the DCAU be if the heroes got stronger & stronger and got upgrades.
Boring.

[creativerealms]

Yeah look at DCAU's AMAZO, boring.

[Collie]

Boring.

and Stupid.

What the OP describes isn't a DCAU problem, it's an anime problem.

I'd much rather see: "I'm outclassed ... I'm going to have to think my way out of this" over "I'm outclassed ... time for a TRAINING MONTAGE!"

[bighate]

So the reason all the heroes in the DCAU remain the same is because the whole series would be ruined if they got stronger and got upgrades.



It gets boring for DCAU characters to always stay the same.

[Silverstar]

So the reason all the heroes in the DCAU remain the same is because the whole series would be ruined if they got stronger and got upgrades.



It gets boring for DCAU characters to always stay the same.

That's your opinion, which does not equal fact. Again, you're trying to apply shonen anime logic to an American cartoon, which simply doesn't work. The 2 genres are simply not the same. It's not a "problem" that one show doesn't fit the parameters that you think it should. It's only a problem for you, not for them.

Anyways, this discussion is becoming circular. People are just stating and restating the same things over and over again. If no one else has anything new or worthwhile to bring to the table, I'd say this thread has run its' course.

[Blackstar]

It gets boring for DCAU characters to always stay the same.

Of course it does, but conversely, the DBZ fighters initially getting pwned by the Big Evil and then flying off to train for a year, that never gets old, right? ;):p

[Antiyonder]

It gets boring for DCAU characters to always stay the same.

It would be boring if they could win every fight. What makes their fights interesting is that the means to gain victory differ.

Sometimes they might have to outwit their opponents.

Other times they have to develop a weapon to steal their opponents power.

Sometimes they might even achieve victory through simply mocking their opponents.

[W.C.Reaf]

It gets boring for DCAU characters to always stay the same.

See there the thing, they don't. OK their powers are relatively the same throughout, but their characters develop and change from the beginning of the series to the end. That's more interesting to me than just their powers getting bigger to fight bigger threats.

I can't compare to anime's since I haven't seen that many that go beyond 26 episodes and therefore don't need to do the "train to get more power to defeat bigger badder foe" thing.

[Beyond Batman]

What kind of epic story would you tell where the JLU has limitless power? Who would be their enemy?

[Beyond Batman]

To add to that, what's your definition of "limitless power?"

[Silverstar]

:^: The poster who started this thread has since been banned, so we'll probably never know. :sweat:

[BigFatHairyDeal]

Just to play a little bit of devil's advocate, there are avenues for expanding powers in the DCAU, and in fact, there were a few examples here and there. The most obvious example was when the Flash tapped into the Speed Force. I'm not sure anybody stood a chance against him. Fortunately, the writers obviously put restrictions on that angle, making it improbable or impractical for Flash ever to try that tactic again.

Another example, sort of, was "Hearts and Minds" when GL seemed to lose his ability to use the ring properly. It's not quite the same when power goes down, just to go back up, but the point is he had to re-train and refocus to become effective again. Any GL easily could fall into the anime character mold of having to train to become better to beat enemies. I wouldn't necessarily want to see that happen over and over again, but it's something the DCAU could have referenced more often, even if the hints were slight. It's not asking too much for GL to be better at his job than he was in day 1, especially when you consider a lot of fans think that's appropriate for Batman, even to the point of claiming that Batman's growing "power" is a result of good character evolution.

Lastly, I'm going to bring up the All-Star Superman comic line. IMO, the stories blow away any recent Superman story, DCU and DCAU alike. To me, it's the way Superman should be handled by more writers. Anyway, for those not familiar, Superman came into very close proximity of the sun, and as a result became much more powerful. The catch? It turned out to be seemingly lethal, as many of his cells progressed into apoptosis (normal accelerated programmed cell death). It's an example of how to write a story with growing powers. You can give a lot more, you just have to know where you have to take back in order to restore some balance of power and conflict.

[Wolf Boy2]

and Stupid.

What the OP describes isn't a DCAU problem, it's an anime problem.

I'd much rather see: "I'm outclassed ... I'm going to have to think my way out of this" over "I'm outclassed ... time for a TRAINING MONTAGE!"
When I read this, "Eye of the Tiger" started playing in my head.

"Training montage" ... I get this image of DCAU Superman jogging through Phillidelphia, punching meat and waxing cars to 80s rock. :D