Gundam wussies

[SpaceCub]

Has anyone ever noticed how many wimps there are on the Gundam series? And why are they only the good guys?

That chump from Mobile Suit Gundam was a complete cry baby. As Cotton Hill would say "Son, I once gutted a man, and he whined less than you." Maybe if he'd shut up once in awhile, all his buddies wouldn't die on him.

I've only seen 2 eps of 0083, but I hope that kid get's fragged.

Don't even get me started on the entire cast of Gundam Wing. Just one pre-pubessent punk after another. What are they, friggin' stupid? Okay, the war's over, what do we do? "Let's hurl our best line of defense into the sun in the name of eternal peace! Uh-oh, Somebody started a war again, guess we'd better risk our lives trying to save the Gundams before they get toasted. Okay, now that that war's over, there couldn't POSSIBLY be one after that. LET'S BLOW THE GUNDAMS UP! THAT'LL WORK!" Did the writer's of Endless Waltz just forget the entire meaning of the movie's title? Peace, War, Aftermath (or something like that). The cycle can't be broken, they even friggin' say it THEMSELVES.

Peacecraft- "Boo-hoo, I can't fly the Tallgeese, the stress is too much for me." Well no der, maybe if you'd try wearing a G-suit (for those of you unfamiliar w/ the term, watch a good documentay on fighter pilots) instead of a tee-shirt. You just made a drop from space at about 3 times the speed of sound, yer lucky your head didn't explode!

The only remotely cool guys are the bad guys. Zeon's have way cooler mobile suits and the guy who flew the Gouf in the next to last ep of 8th MS Team was the only decent pilot on the entie show. After a few eps of MSG I was actually rooting for the bad guys, if it wasn't for what's him face in the mask the show would have completely sucked (didn't Toonami ever finish showing that, or did they just stop half way because of bad ratings?).

*Sigh* Enough venting for today, should probably go watch some Bebop, at least there's one good guy worth watching (altough once again, the bad guys are cool).

---

"And you shall shed tears of scarlet."

[JL Man]

Ok. I've said it once and I'll say it again.

Don't Post About Something You Don't Like At A Board Where The Show Is Liked!

It's stupid, ok!

If you really don't like a show, don't even bother to complain about it.

[Sheamon]

If you really don't like a show, don't even bother to complain about it.


I've said it once, and I'll say it again.

This is a MESSAGE BOARD not a PRAISE BOARD. If someone has a problem with something, they post and discuss it. Simply saying crap like "If you don't like it then leave" is spammy nonscense that adds nothing to the discussion.

If you don't like people not liking something, you should god forbid... ACTUALLY BRING UP POINTS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW!!!

[RogueMartian]

Sheamon is right, so I'll bring up some good points.

Gundam Wing was a good series. These kids were far from being wimps (except maybe quatre, but he was still cool in his own way). These kids were trained fighters and for 15 year olds in heavy combat and being terrorists, I give them a lot of credit. Although it wasn't focused on in the series, I'm sure as a pilot, zechs tried some way to protect himself from the G-forces put on him. We were supposed to get the idea that the reason he had a heart attack was because the piloting of the Tallgeese itself took a great deal of skill and fortitude.

In Endless Waltz, the Gundams were sent into the sun because of Quatre. Disarmament is what all countries in peace try to do. Even the US was doing this before certain events that don't need to be name. The gundams were extremely deadly weapons and most of the Gundam Pilots who had fought so hard for peace believed that symbols of death and destruction should be destroyed. Was this logic good or bad? You can make valid points either way, I would call their logic idealistic and leave it at that.

As for the UC century series, I'll agree with that one there. The Feddies are wimps. Okay, i'm gonna get flamed for this but let me start with Amuro. This guy got into a gundam for the first time and PULLED OUT AN INSTRUCTION MANUAL. How he survived I'll never know. After a while he hated being a pilot and spent days in his room in the dark whining about hating war. His friend was an idiot who tried to leave the army in the middle of a war and the rest were barely competent pilots at all.

08th ms team shocked me. This is supposed to be the military and I see absolutely NO discipline. At least the OZ soldiers were a disciplined group in GW. The members of the 08th ms team were slovenly, got kidnapped several times in only 13 episodes and their leader, ensign amada, would have been executed as a traitor if he was in any normal army.

Gundam 0080 that premiered on the midnight run, was the best one. Of course, it was only 6 episodes and it focused on spies. So its not a lot to go on.

I won't pass judgement on the 0083 yet, I haven't seen the whole series, but I will say that thus far, it seems to follow the UC trend.

[Sheamon]

Now that I've got time (had to go to class earlier so I couldn't talk about the actual subject -_-) I'll do what JL Man can't do.


That chump from Mobile Suit Gundam was a complete cry baby. As Cotton Hill would say "Son, I once gutted a man, and he whined less than you." Maybe if he'd shut up once in awhile, all his buddies wouldn't die on him.

Sigh... what else do you want then? You may not like Amuro, but he's REALISTIC. What you have to realize is that in the late 70's, all the mecha shows featured perfect heroes piloting perfect mechs that never ran out of supplies, or fuel, never broke down, were one of a kind, etc... Then Gundam comes around and... hold your breath here... Actually did something realistic! Tell me something. If you watched the town you were living in get destroyed, then were forced into an organization against your will and forced to essentially 'carry' the fate of the entire squadron on your back like Amuro was forced to do, how the hell would you act!?!?!?

Is Amuro whiny? Yes, he certainly is. But so would any of us in that situation. And thats what makes him such a good, realistic character. Instead of complaining about Amuro's whiny behavior in the first half of the series, I think complaints should instead arise out of his behavior in the second half of the series, where he's practically perfect in every way.

Gundam essentially created the flawed hero in the genre. Without Amuro Ray there's no Shinji Ikari, there's no Gene Starwind, etc...




I've only seen 2 eps of 0083, but I hope that kid get's fragged.

2 episodes? How can anyone get a proper opinion of 13 episode show after only 2 episodes?




Don't even get me started on the entire cast of Gundam Wing. Just one pre-pubessent punk after another. What are they, friggin' stupid? Okay, the war's over, what do we do? "Let's hurl our best line of defense into the sun in the name of eternal peace! Uh-oh, Somebody started a war again, guess we'd better risk our lives trying to save the Gundams before they get toasted. Okay, now that that war's over, there couldn't POSSIBLY be one after that. LET'S BLOW THE GUNDAMS UP! THAT'LL WORK!" Did the writer's of Endless Waltz just forget the entire meaning of the movie's title? Peace, War, Aftermath (or something like that). The cycle can't be broken, they even friggin' say it THEMSELVES.


Yes, thats actually a good point, like I recently mentioned in another Gundam thread, the effort to 'cash in' off of GW's success actually ends up destroying the message of the show, totally ruining the ending of the series, not to mention EW as well.



Peacecraft- "Boo-hoo, I can't fly the Tallgeese, the stress is too much for me." Well no der, maybe if you'd try wearing a G-suit (for those of you unfamiliar w/ the term, watch a good documentay on fighter pilots) instead of a tee-shirt. You just made a drop from space at about 3 times the speed of sound, yer lucky your head didn't explode!

LoL, remember how Zechs has so much trouble piloting Tallgeese in episode 9, then suddenly he's perfect with it in episode 10? :rolleyes: However, I don't even see what you're getting at here.



The only remotely cool guys are the bad guys. Zeon's have way cooler mobile suits and the guy who flew the Gouf in the next to last ep of 8th MS Team was the only decent pilot on the entie show.


The show's about the infantrymen, not the aces. What do you expect?!



After a few eps of MSG I was actually rooting for the bad guys, if it wasn't for what's him face in the mask the show would have completely sucked (didn't Toonami ever finish showing that, or did they just stop half way because of bad ratings?).

You haven't even watched the whole show. Sigh.... I see a pattern here.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by RogueMartian


08th ms team shocked me. This is supposed to be the military and I see absolutely NO discipline. At least the OZ soldiers were a disciplined group in GW. The members of the 08th ms team were slovenly, got kidnapped several times in only 13 episodes and their leader, ensign amada, would have been executed as a traitor if he was in any normal army.


I'm pretty sure the show was TRYING to be about a ragtag group of soldiers who managed to escape the war alive through luck and willpower. They looked stupid, screwed up, and were very lucky. But Shiro vowed to keep his group alive, and through sheer luck, willpower and leadership, he did. And if you think this doesn't happen in real life, I could tell you stories I've heard from guys who fought in the 'Nam.

Shiro was a good leader, by the way, despite his rendezvous with the enemy and getting thrown in jail. He had a distinct fighting style, which I liked--Shiro was pretty competent in the art of the ambush and the hit-and-run. In a way, he used guerrilla tactics, something we didn't see much of in the "shoot the baddies up because our mechas are so powerful" strategies the other Gundam good guys tended to use in other Gundam shows.

Anyway, 08th MS Team may not be as "realistic" as other Gundam shows in the way the events turned out, but it tried to put a different, slightly humourous spin on the UC Gundam universe, which had previously been mostly super-serious. IMO, it's better than 0083.

[ohmrbill]

Originally posted by SpaceCub
Has anyone ever noticed how many wimps there are on the Gundam series? And why are they only the good guys?

That chump from Mobile Suit Gundam was a complete cry baby. As Cotton Hill would say "Son, I once gutted a man, and he whined less than you." Maybe if he'd shut up once in awhile, all his buddies wouldn't die on him.

I've only seen 2 eps of 0083, but I hope that kid get's fragged.

Don't even get me started on the entire cast of Gundam Wing. Just one pre-pubessent punk after another. What are they, friggin' stupid? Okay, the war's over, what do we do? "Let's hurl our best line of defense into the sun in the name of eternal peace! Uh-oh, Somebody started a war again, guess we'd better risk our lives trying to save the Gundams before they get toasted. Okay, now that that war's over, there couldn't POSSIBLY be one after that. LET'S BLOW THE GUNDAMS UP! THAT'LL WORK!" Did the writer's of Endless Waltz just forget the entire meaning of the movie's title? Peace, War, Aftermath (or something like that). The cycle can't be broken, they even friggin' say it THEMSELVES.

Peacecraft- "Boo-hoo, I can't fly the Tallgeese, the stress is too much for me." Well no der, maybe if you'd try wearing a G-suit (for those of you unfamiliar w/ the term, watch a good documentay on fighter pilots) instead of a tee-shirt. You just made a drop from space at about 3 times the speed of sound, yer lucky your head didn't explode!

The only remotely cool guys are the bad guys. Zeon's have way cooler mobile suits and the guy who flew the Gouf in the next to last ep of 8th MS Team was the only decent pilot on the entie show. After a few eps of MSG I was actually rooting for the bad guys, if it wasn't for what's him face in the mask the show would have completely sucked (didn't Toonami ever finish showing that, or did they just stop half way because of bad ratings?).




HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! LOL!!!

As much of a Gundam fan that I am, I'll admit that he's right! Nearly every main character in nearly every Gundam series is a nancy-boy wuss. There are a couple of exceptions, though. Domon Kasshu from G Gundam is a bad ass. ^_^

[SpaceCub]

The reason why I felt the need to complain about MSG and 0083 after not watching all of it is because, I too, see a pattern developing.

I'm sorry, but after watching Amuro cry, day in, day out, for HALF of the entire series, I figured that he would just continue to do so. After how many eps, he showed no sign of change whatsoever. Why else do you think people stop watching a series? The show sucks, it doesn't look like it will stop sucking any time soon, so why continue watching a show for the off chance that something cool might happen? The same goes for 0083, but yes, going back on my own word, I will continue watching the show on the off chance something cool will happen.

Sheamon, the point I was trying to make about Sechs was that he is a professional fighter pilot. Professional fighter pilots should know basic things like G's. G's are Centrepical forces applied to the pilot after he/she does a high speed maneuver. Like slamming on the brakes in a car, but in the other direction. This force can actually get so bad in combat situations that it can actually simulate additional gravities, G's, on the human frame (think Goku's space ship that Dr. Briefs made for him). At high enough G's, blood flow in a body is altered (like standing on your head) and someone can actually pass out from lack of blood to the brain, or, theoretically, have their head explode from excess blood flow. Research and development guys figured out that this can be quite a problem in dogfights, where G's can be in excess of 10 (Goku could barely even move on King Kai's planet, and he's a Sayain). So someone came up with the brilliant idea of making a suit that could use swelling air "bladders" to restrict blood flow to certain parts of the body, depending on pilot's position (upside down, left, right, etc). In maneuvers where blood flow to the brain would increase, bladders around the neck inflate, preventing red outs. In maneuvers where blood flow to the brain decreases, air bladders around the neck deflate, and bladders below the heart (areas that aren't as needed to fly a plane with the exception of rudder control) inflate, causing more blood to be able to reach the brain. Thus, the "G-Suit" was born, and now pilots are able to pull G's around 12 or so without passing out or suffering heart attacks (as they did on the Prison World in OS or like Sechs' buddy). If someone makes a thruster propelled space drop (as the pilots on GW repeatedly did and mind you the space shuttle is actually trying its damnednest to slow down by coming in horizontally to build up wind resistance and not firing its thrusters) G's would be around, oh, 25 or so. And if a pilot is not wearing a G-suit, blood flow to the head area would increase to such extent that the pilot would either die as their brain drowns in its own blood, or pass out and not be able to land his plane without making a Gulf of Mexico sized crater in the earth, destroying himself, his Mobile suit, and any helpless civies near by.

So this is what I'm talking about, and this is why the fact that none of the pilots in GW use G-suits irritates me so much.

---
Woman "Well you're awfully self-confident"
Fighter Pilot "You have to be when you have 10,000 pounds of thrust to your command"

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

BTW guys---Gundam pilots don't come more pathetic than Kou. And love interests don't come more childish than Nina Purpleton.

Don't think so yet? You'll see, you'll see....mwhahahahahaha!

[Evil Dr. Reef]

Yeah, Kou is a pretty sissy-boy pilot. And here's a quote to back it up:
Anavel: The usuall Gundam rant on the battlefield
Kou (after being tounge-lashed by Anavel): "Uhh, umm, yes sir!"
Anavel (stunned): "YOU IDIOT! I'M THE ENEMY!!!!!!"

[RogueMartian]

Originally posted by Leaping Larry Jojo
BTW guys---Gundam pilots don't come more pathetic than Kou. And love interests don't come more childish than Nina Purpleton.

Don't think so yet? You'll see, you'll see....mwhahahahahaha!

LOL. I still think Amuro is the most pathetic gundam pilot so far, but you are right.

[randomguy]

This isn't just Gundam. This is everybody. Nearly every anime has a bunch of whiny guys who can mysteriously kick ass when the need arises. Often in a giant robot. Chalk it up to one of the most cliched show formats around. That's why I loved Cowboy Bebop. Spike would gun down a Gundam pilot effortlessly without going into a ten-minute long rant on the ills of violence.

[Sheamon]

I'm sorry, but after watching Amuro cry, day in, day out, for HALF of the entire series, I figured that he would just continue to do so. After how many eps, he showed no sign of change whatsoever. Why else do you think people stop watching a series? The show sucks, it doesn't look like it will stop sucking any time soon, so why continue watching a show for the off chance that something cool might happen? The same goes for 0083, but yes, going back on my own word, I will continue watching the show on the off chance something cool will happen.
[/B]

Thats your problem, you're assuming something without watching the entire show. Anyway, there's a rather big event thats BEFORE the half way point in the series that changes Amuro's attitude for the rest of the series. If you don't mind spoiling yourself: Ryu saves Amuro(not to mention all of White Base) by flying one of the Core Fighters into an enemy craft, killing himself instantly
The same can be said about Kai (who I'm sure annoyed you if Amuro did) about a half a dozen episodes after that.

Frankly, I wonder why you think that makes the show suck so much. Amuro only has 2 real big outbursts, the one when Bright attacks him, and the long 5+ episode ordeal when he steals the Gundam, etc... ending with the afformentioned event. I know people love to complain about Amuro's behavior, but the fact is THAT YOU ONLY GET THIS REALLY WHINY BEHAVIOR FROM AMURO IN ABOUT 6 OF THE 43 EPISODES!

And is there something wrong with realism? Like I said earlier, what would you do if you were in his situation? The fact that Amuro acts immature, that Kai annoys everybody on board, the fact that Bright is too rough on the crew, etc... makes it a much better show. Because its realistic. Take away the realism (lets take the final 3 episodes of Outlaw Star for example where Gene becomes Mr. Perfect) and the show looses a lot of appeal.

lol, if you hated MSG that much I'd love to hear about what you think about Shinji Ikari :rolleyes:

[ohmrbill]

Originally posted by SpaceCub

I'm sorry, but after watching Amuro cry, day in, day out, for HALF of the entire series, I figured that he would just continue to do so. After how many eps, he showed no sign of change whatsoever. Why else do you think people stop watching a series? The show sucks, it doesn't look like it will stop sucking any time soon, so why continue watching a show for the off chance that something cool might happen? The same goes for 0083, but yes, going back on my own word, I will continue watching the show on the off chance something cool will happen.


You're missing the entire point of MSG. They were not trying to make some sort of role model for the kiddies to look up to in Amuro. The whole point was that the entire crew (except for Bright) was made up of civilians who did not want to fight in a war but were forced to do so. Amuro isn't supposed to be a likeable character for the first 3/4 of the series. That's why he received beatings Bright and was thrown into the brig for acting like a spoiled brat and you were glad when it finally happened! And if you didn't notice any change in Amuro's behavior then you really weren't paying attention. He starts off being whiney, scared, and unconfident about his abilities, and then jumps to the other extreme of being a completely self-centered and arrogant bastard ("I'm the best one here!"), before finally becoming a relatively decent soldier by the end (of course a few beatings from Bright helped with that).

But yes, the first 3/4 of the series is VERY slow moving compared to the last quarter. It doesn't start to really pick up until about the Battle of Solomon, when both Char's and Amuro's newtype powers start to reach their peak (some of the real meat of the series) and Amuro finally starts to get his act together. It's a shame that CN took it off just as it was getting really good. In fact, (and not a lot of people seem to know this) it actually did quite badly on its first run in Japan, as well. So bad, in fact, that it was cancelled near the end (the series was originally planned to have 50-some episodes). The creators begged for a slight extension for the series so they could finish the story, and they got it. Gundam didn't start to reach its immense popularity until after the final episode aired and got into reruns. So, if it ever comes back on again, I strongly suggest watching the second half.

And, as was mentioned up there, don't expect a lot from Kou in 0083. I wish he'd get fragged, too... As I've stated before, he's one of the luckiest SOB's in any Gundam series. At least Amuro had the newtype excuse on why he was able to survive.

[randomguy]

lol, if you hated MSG that much I'd love to hear about what you think about Shinji Ikari

Oh good lord no, let's not even go there. Lord knows the whole thing's bad enough without having Freudain analysis thrown into the works.

[Sheamon]

You're missing the entire point of MSG. They were not trying to make some sort of role model for the kiddies to look up to in Amuro. The whole point was that the entire crew (except for Bright) was made up of civilians who did not want to fight in a war but were forced to do so. Amuro isn't supposed to be a likeable character for the first 3/4 of the series. That's why he received beatings Bright and was thrown into the brig for acting like a spoiled brat and you were glad when it finally happened! And if you didn't notice any change in Amuro's behavior then you really weren't paying attention. He starts off being whiney, scared, and unconfident about his abilities, and then jumps to the other extreme of being a completely self-centered and arrogant bastard ("I'm the best one here!"), before finally becoming a relatively decent soldier by the end (of course a few beatings from Bright helped with that).
LoL, I can't believe I forgot about that. Amuro isn't whiny from episodes 1-21, like I said earlier, he's whiny from eps 1-13. I'm wondering exactly how many episodes you've watched, spacecub. Doesn't seem like much.



But yes, the first 3/4 of the series is VERY slow moving compared to the last quarter. It doesn't start to really pick up until about the Battle of Solomon, when both Char's and Amuro's newtype powers start to reach their peak (some of the real meat of the series) and Amuro finally starts to get his act together.

Well technically, Amuro truly gets his act together around Jaburo, where at this point in the series he's witnessed among other things:

-Icelina's death right in front of him
-Ryu's kamikaze right in front of him.
-Matilda, who he was in love with, dying right in front of him.
-Matilda's fiance, Lt. Woody dying right in front of him.


Sure took a lot of messed up lives to straighten Amuro out. Thats not even mentioning his parents :yawn: But the fact remains that HE DID STRAIGHTEN OUT AND BECAME THE BEST PILOT THERE WAS.

just correcting a mistake here - Char didn't even show up at the Battle of Solomon. You might be thinking of Texas colony.

[ohmrbill]

Originally posted by Sheamon


Well technically, Amuro truly gets his act together around Jaburo

just correcting a mistake here - Char didn't even show up at the Battle of Solomon. You might be thinking of Texas colony.

I didn't mean exactly at the Solomon, I meant right around that time. If I remember correctly, Jaburo wasn't long before Solomon and the Texas Colony wasn't long after. I may have the order of events mixed up in my head, though. I'm going purely by the memory here. Ehhh... where did the whole Side 6 arch fit in, again?

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by randomguy
This isn't just Gundam. This is everybody. Nearly every anime has a bunch of whiny guys who can mysteriously kick ass when the need arises. Often in a giant robot. Chalk it up to one of the most cliched show formats around. That's why I loved Cowboy Bebop. Spike would gun down a Gundam pilot effortlessly without going into a ten-minute long rant on the ills of violence.

Too true...

But the most kick-ass anime hero of all time is either:

Chirico Cuvie

or

Kenshiro

[Sheamon]

Jaburo - eps 29 & 30
Side 6 - eps 33 & 34
Solomon - eps 35 & 36
Texas - eps 37 & 38

They made it even more confusing in the movies by mixing up the order of everything :confused:

[androvsky]

I remember watching the Gundam movie trilogy thinking about how great it was that Amuro wasn't nearly as bad a wuss as some other anime heros I had seen recently, with far less whining about violence than Heero from Gundam Wing. My favorite scene from any of the Gundams is when, as I put it, "Amuro got the Shinji beat out of him" by Bright. :)

As for Amuro pulling out an instruction manual in the first episode and somehow winning, it's not that far-fetched. In WWII, American Sherman tanks were so worthless that their shells would bounce off of the incredible armor of the German main battle tanks. And the Shermans were the improved version! We had even crappier tanks at the beginning of the war going up against Panzers. I imagine a teen who had passing knowledge of tank operating theory and a manual could jump in a Panzer and take out a couple of Shermans with a bit of luck. Remember, it was a souped-up prototype vs. older production models.

[ohmrbill]

As for Amuro pulling out an instruction manual in the first episode and somehow winning, it's not that far-fetched. In WWII, American Sherman tanks were so worthless that their shells would bounce off of the incredible armor of the German main battle tanks. And the Shermans were the improved version! We had even crappier tanks at the beginning of the war going up against Panzers. I imagine a teen who had passing knowledge of tank operating theory and a manual could jump in a Panzer and take out a couple of Shermans with a bit of luck. Remember, it was a souped-up prototype vs. older production models.

In addition to that, Amuro also had two things going for him: 1) He's a newtype, which gives him an advantage over regular people. And 2) The Gundam is equipped with that "self-learning computer" which means that most of the complex functions are largely automated.



"Amuro got the Shinji beat out of him"


LOL!!! I've gotta use that one! :D

[SpaceCub]

Regarding your spoiler, good, that knowledge just made my day.

And believeit or not, I actually liked Kai more than Amuro.

I watched just about nearly every ep they showed of MSG (and if CN would show it, I'd probably watch the rest) and I'm sorry, but Amuro still comes off as a snot IMO. No, he didn't act this way for all the eps CN showed, but that little stint he pulled holed up in his room for how many days while everyone was counting on him sure doesn't help him out. And yes, I count someone saying that he's (Amuro, not you) the best, counts as whiny behavior. More in the spoiled brat category.

As for the last 3 eps of OS, the 3rd to last doesn't ring a bell (yes, I saw all of them), but out of the whole series I'd say the last 2 were my fav. Not because of characters (although I did find it funny how Harry? MacDougal went from being possessive psychopath to being a devoted protector. Not only that, but Hasanko kicked ass), but because of plot and drama. I always enjoy it when a series answers questions about the plot. That's probably why I liked Ballad of the Fallen Angels so much, although I think it raised more questions than it answered (that and the whole gunfight in the abandoned Cathedral rocked).

Getting back to MSG, what do I want? I want people piloting multi-billion dollar peices of gov't equipment to grow up and stop acting like kids (regardless of their age). They wanna defend their home and serve in the military (as I recall, nearly all the MSG crew became officers/non-coms in that one ep), then they should show some frickin' discipline and shut their pie-holes (this goes for the 8th MS Team too. Shiro's your CO for crap-sakes, follow his orders once in a while, Mikail).

---
"Ever hear how those Chinese restaraunts always say 'Our food contains no MSG.' Well, I for one would like to know if it contains D-O-G"- Comedian

"I am Hasanko and caster shells do not work on me"

[Sheamon]

Originally posted by SpaceCub
I watched just about nearly every ep they showed of MSG (and if CN would show it, I'd probably watch the rest) and I'm sorry, but Amuro still comes off as a snot IMO. No, he didn't act this way for all the eps CN showed, but that little stint he pulled holed up in his room for how many days while everyone was counting on him sure doesn't help him out. And yes, I count someone saying that he's (Amuro, not you) the best, counts as whiny behavior. More in the spoiled brat category.

Now you have no idea what you're talking about @_@ Theres a little thing called character development. I'm wondering what specific actions by Amuro in episodes 22 and after made you think of him as such a whining brat.



As for the last 3 eps of OS, the 3rd to last doesn't ring a bell (yes, I saw all of them), but out of the whole series I'd say the last 2 were my fav. Not because of characters (although I did find it funny how Harry? MacDougal went from being possessive psychopath to being a devoted protector. Not only that, but Hasanko kicked ass), but because of plot and drama. I always enjoy it when a series answers questions about the plot. That's probably why I liked Ballad of the Fallen Angels so much, although I think it raised more questions than it answered (that and the whole gunfight in the abandoned Cathedral rocked).

The thing I really dislike about the ending is that the thing I enjoyed so much about Outlaw Star was the realistic characters, and the good character development, only to see it all flushed down the toilet in the finale. Of course I had many problems with the plot as well :rolleyes:



Getting back to MSG, what do I want? I want people piloting multi-billion dollar peices of gov't equipment to grow up and stop acting like kids (regardless of their age). They wanna defend their home and serve in the military (as I recall, nearly all the MSG crew became officers/non-coms in that one ep), then they should show some frickin' discipline and shut their pie-holes (this goes for the 8th MS Team too. Shiro's your CO for crap-sakes, follow his orders once in a while, Mikail).

Alright, so you like shows that are less realistic. No problem with that. I just happen to like things the other way around, where KIDS aren't perfect soldiers.

[RogueMartian]

Sheamon, don't you think that whiny kids piloting expensive government machinery is kind of unrealistic? Kids piloting at all is unrealistic, but if the government was going to have children soldiers, they would most certainly prepare them(something they do in GW but not in MSG). Okay, Amuro got into the Gundam for the first time without permission and amazingly got to Whitebase alive, I believe that at that point the gundam would have been taken away from Amuro and given to a comissioned experienced officer. Okay, I'll suspend belief even further, Amuro gets to keep the gundam all the way to earth, but then he bars himself up in his room for some unknown number of days and refuses to come out. If I was a commander the LAST thing I would do is let this guy continue being the keystone of my defense. There are many soldiers in the military, surely one of them would have been a more capable pilot.

Yes you are right, his character later develops to become a good soldier, and character development is one of the strengths of MSG, but I have a hard time buying it. Not the character development itself, but the fact that these characters were given the freedom to develop the way they did and STILL won the war. By far the Zeons were more disciplined and realistic as a military.

Edit: Oh I forgot, someone called Heero whiny for talking about the evils of war. Heero was quite intelligent about war and the philosophies of it, as were all the characters on that show, since the philosophy of war, terrorism, and humanity's nature was a MAJOR theme in that series, I think its good that they discussed it.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by RogueMartian
Sheamon, don't you think that whiny kids piloting expensive government machinery is kind of unrealistic? Kids piloting at all is unrealistic, but if the government was going to have children soldiers, they would most certainly prepare them(something they do in GW but not in MSG).

In GW, the war was something a long time in planning, so they had the time to train Heero and Co from childhood. The Earth Federation was essentially thrust into the war, and so they didn't have enough time to train or react. There was a shortage of soldiers in general--heck, the whole White Base was made up on civilians. Bright Noah, for gawd's sake, was just a kid no older than someone in his mid twenties.

This is not much different than World War II or World War I. A lot of the men who fought back then weren't much older than 14 or 15. A lot of them panicked and disobeyed orders. Most of them had less than a few weeks of training. A lot of them were worse--they were shellshocked to the point that they couldn't do ANYTHING in the war.

In 08th MS Team, you think that troop looked stupid and incompetent? Well, I watched it with a friend's grandfather who was in the 'Nam, and he found some of the MS Team's antics amusing because they reflected some of his experiences in that war.

Yeah, war isn't fun and games, but it's not like soldiers don't do stupid things, and some of the luck the MS Team had isn't too far from the real thing. Most war veterans would tell you that surviving is 80% luck.

The Zeon had planned the war and were PREPARED for it. They had ample time to get their troops in gear, so they were more seasoned. That, and the fact that they had a common goal, a thrust. The EF was just trying to SURVIVE. Now, I'm not going to get into the "who's bad, who's good" debate of it again, but it is true that the EF had little time to react to the Zeon's declaration of war.

This is anime, of course, so the concept of "realism" is nonsense as the major thing with Gundam is to sell model kits, but the attitudes and characteristics of Gundam is not far from the real thing. ALSO, the Gundam shows often tended to take sides--we never get to see the Zeon's vulnerable side other than a few key characters and in 0080...but that isn't enough to match the 40+ episode Gundam series where the POV is from the "good guys" side.

[Watagashi]

How are the Gundam Wing pilots wussies? :confused: I don't get that.

[ohmrbill]

Originally posted by RogueMartian
Sheamon, don't you think that whiny kids piloting expensive government machinery is kind of unrealistic? Kids piloting at all is unrealistic, but if the government was going to have children soldiers, they would most certainly prepare them(something they do in GW but not in MSG). Okay, Amuro got into the Gundam for the first time without permission and amazingly got to Whitebase alive, I believe that at that point the gundam would have been taken away from Amuro and given to a comissioned experienced officer. Okay, I'll suspend belief even further, Amuro gets to keep the gundam all the way to earth, but then he bars himself up in his room for some unknown number of days and refuses to come out. If I was a commander the LAST thing I would do is let this guy continue being the keystone of my defense. There are many soldiers in the military, surely one of them would have been a more capable pilot.


Ughhh, I'd rather not get into a UC vs. GW debate here, but it looks like this may turn into one...

Why have kid pilots AT ALL if you don't have to? The difference between GW and MSG is that there was no reason for them to us 15 year-olds instead of adults as pilots in GW. Whereas in MSG, the excuse was that there wasn't much of a choice. In addition to LLJ's points, you're forgetting a lot of key facts in MSG.

1) When 50% of humanity has been whipped out in less than a year, it doesn't leave you with very many qualified pilots. As was pointed out, the only actual military personnel left alive at Side 7 was Bright Noah, Ryu (who's still in training, anyway), and the fatally wounded White Base captain.

2)The Federation doesn't even HAVE very many people trained at mobile suit combat outside of a few test pilots (all of the ones at Side 7 were killed). Remember, it's a new and heavily classified technology to them.

At Side 7, Amuro wasn't replaced with anyone because there was no one to replace him with (as a matter of fact, Bright wanted to replace him; remember?). I guess Ryu could have done it, but it seems he was training as a fighter pilot, not an MS pilot. At Luna II, the military was going to replace not only Amuro, but the entire crew (remember how they were all thrown into the brig?). I forget exactly why they changed their mind, but I think it was a combination of them already having the experience of a few battles, and not having enough experienced personnel to man the new ship themselves (no one there had even seen a Feddie MS before, let alone know how to pilot one). Anyway, the plan they stated was that the White Base crew was only going to deliver the ship and its MS's strait to Jaburo. They weren’t planning on any combat. Of course, this plan went awry when Char (Senor Bad Ass) destroyed their escort and knocked them off course into Zeon territory.

In regards as to why they continued to let Amuro pilot after he continued to behave like a baby: they didn't. Remember that the reason the little bastard took off with the Gundam was because Bright was going to make someone else its pilot. When he finally came back, he got his ass thrown into the brig. And after they saw that know one else was able to do jack in the Gundam, they saw they had no choice but to give it back to Amuro (remember, he's a newtype so there's an excuse as to why he's so good). By the time they finally did reach Jaburo, Amuro was far better and more experienced than any of the test pilots there so he of course he was kept as the pilot. And besides, he had cleaned up his act by then (even if he was still a little bit whinny.

Flash back to GW, and you see that they never give any reason as to why these kids are piloting Gundams are so damn good at it. Yes, Heero was explained, and I'll admit that his reason was just fine. They even had an excuse for Trowa (even though they waited until EW to give it). Duo, Wu Fei, and especially Quatre, however, remain a complete mystery throughout the series. The biggest question I had ever since the first episode of GW was: who are these kids, why are they piloting the Gundams, and why are they so darn good at it? GW ended in dissapointment for me because, except for Heero and Trowa, that question never got answered.


How are the Gundam Wing pilots wussies? I don't get that.

They're not wussies, they're idiots. ;)

[Watagashi]

Originally posted by ohmrbill
They're not wussies, they're idiots. ;)

HEY! :mad: :p

[Sheamon]

but that little stint he pulled holed up in his room for how many days

Sigh... I think you need to watch the show again, its certainly clear that you've forgotten a lot of what happened.
He wasn't in his room for days, more like an hour, even if that much. If you'll remember, Amuro refused to go out in the Gundam on patrol, then when Garma's forces were attacking the ship. Brights consistent yelling and hitting Amuro didn't work, but Frau's threats to pilot the Gundam did. After whining and moaning for an hour, if that long (about half the episode or so) he went out and piloted the Gundam, not after days -_-



At Luna II, the military was going to replace not only Amuro, but the entire crew (remember how they were all thrown into the brig?). I forget exactly why they changed their mind, but I think it was a combination of them already having the experience of a few battles, and not having enough experienced personnel to man the new ship themselves

It was cause Captain Paolo(the original White Base Captain) convinced Wakkein to let them go, shortly before his death.



In regards as to why they continued to let Amuro pilot after he continued to behave like a baby: they didn't. Remember that the reason the little bastard took off with the Gundam was because Bright was going to make someone else its pilot. When he finally came back, he got his ass thrown into the brig. And after they saw that know one else was able to do jack in the Gundam, they saw they had no choice but to give it back to Amuro

Well they did give it to Sayla to pilot for a little while :rolleyes: When Hamon and the rest of Ranba Ral's forces attacked White Base yet again, Ryu used the opportunity not only to get Amuro in the Gundam, but to get in the Core Fighter himself so he could help out. And we all know what happened next... To honor the deceased Ryu's wishes (he kept trying to convince Bright to ease up on Amuro throughout the episode), not to mention the fact that Bright got deathly ill and couldn't instill his command over the ship anyway (Mirai was in command for a while immediately after Ryu's death) Amuro was able to go back to the Gundam, despite his behavior, and by the time Bright was well enough to take back command he certainly couldn't take Amuro, who had just recently taken out a nuclear weapon in the battle of Odessa, off the Gundam. Amuro lucked out due to the circumstances, it wasn't really a case of Amuro being the only one who could do it (if you'll remember in the episode when Amuro steals the Gundam, Bright says not only that he'd rather have Ryu pilot instead, but also Kai, Hayato, Omur and Jobe John.)

As for Gundam Wing, we all know the reasons why their the pilots. Can you say invinsible pretty boys? :p It doesn't really bug me that much, outside of comparing the show to UC ones.

[randomguy]

Man Sheamon. You know your Gundam. Scary.

[RogueMartian]

I feel I have to apologize, I didn't mean to turn this into a AC vs. UC debate. The point in bringing up GW was to state that they trained the pilots for years in advance. There are other mecha anime series where the pilots are trained early on, but GW was the first one that came to mind.

My statement was against the so-called realism of Amuro being allowed to pilot the gundam. Okay, so he was so good at piloting because he was a newtype, but so was Sayla. So if two newtypes could be accidentally thrown together like that, newtypes aren't that rare, they're not common either, but certainly in a global military with millions of soldiers there had to be quite a few available. So somewhere somehow there had to be other people than Amuro to pilot the gundam.


Flash back to GW, and you see that they never give any reason as to why these kids are piloting Gundams are so damn good at it. Yes, Heero was explained, and I'll admit that his reason was just fine. They even had an excuse for Trowa (even though they waited until EW to give it). Duo, Wu Fei, and especially Quatre, however, remain a complete mystery throughout the series. The biggest question I had ever since the first episode of GW was: who are these kids, why are they piloting the Gundams, and why are they so darn good at it? GW ended in dissapointment for me because, except for Heero and Trowa, that question never got answered.

I'll agree with that, I wish Duo, Quatre, and Wufei's history could have been explained better. I'm guessing they were also trained from a very early age, but no one can say for sure because it wasn't ever shown. (Although I heard a rumor that said it was explained in a GW manga).



They're not wussies, they're idiots.
In UC, this is true. In GW though, most of the characters, civilians, pilots and soldiers are very intelligent, pensive, and articulate. That's a big part of what I loved about that series.

[ohmrbill]

Originally posted by RogueMartian

My statement was against the so-called realism of Amuro being allowed to pilot the gundam. Okay, so he was so good at piloting because he was a newtype, but so was Sayla. So if two newtypes could be accidentally thrown together like that, newtypes aren't that rare, they're not common either, but certainly in a global military with millions of soldiers there had to be quite a few available.

Sayla is an extremely weak newtype with very limited abilities, whereas Amuro is one of the most powerful newtypes out of any UC series. No, newtypes aren't super-rare. But strong ones like Amuro, Char, and Lalah are.


So somewhere somehow there had to be other people than Amuro to pilot the gundam.

Oh I'm sure there were plenty. But by the time they reached someplace where they could get a qualified MS pilot, Amuro was already practically an ace. ;) Remember, the Federation may have had millions of soldiers, but they certainly didn't have millions of MS pilots at that stage of the war.



In UC, this is true. In GW though, most of the characters, civilians, pilots and soldiers are very intelligent, pensive, and articulate. That's a big part of what I loved about that series.

Calm down. I was just jokingly referring back to SpaceCub's original post. :p

But in all seriousness, drawn-out speeches are not very good way to measure intelligence. The reason I jokingly call them idiots is that I don't agree with most of their philosophies (although I'll admit there were a few insightful points made) and courses of action (see SpaceCub's original post).

And while we're on the subject of the speeches, I'll go ahead and say that they are one of the main reasons I don't like GW very much (I do like it to a certain extent, BTW). It's not that I don't like a thought-provoking show, it's just that GW's speeches were far longer than they needed to be in order to make their points. In addition, most of the speeches were just redundant and were repeating points that had already been established MANY times before. A few times they didn't even relate to any thing that was going on in the show at the time. About half of them could have been cut entirely, and about half of what was left could have been greatly shortened. You'd be surprised how much more effective a few well-placed lines can be than many long-winded soliloquies.

It was this mis-management of time that really bugged me. They spent about half of every episode on scattered speeches, and the other half mindlessly swatting Leos/Mobile Dolls/whatever. I would have much preferred them to spend some of that wasted time on character and plot development (and a story as complex as GW's needs all the plot development it can get). Heck, I would have even been happy if they spent some of that wasted time on interesting action scenes.

Sigh… it’s a shame. Maybe it's just me, but I thought GW had so much potential that it was never really able to live up to. :( Had the time usage been balanced better I probably would have loved the show. I'm not saying that it was a bad show, I'm just saying that I was very disappointed with it by the end.

Hmmm... this thread has turned into something completely unrelated to Adult Swim (not that it had very much to do with it in the first place:p). Maybe this should be moved to the Toonami board?