Hybrid Car ??

[jdawson1960]

I am getting ready to buy another car now. When gas prices were $4 plus, I was really thinking about buying a hybrid. Now with gas prices back down to $2 or less, should I.

I understand the environment situation, however with the cost of a hybrid being $5k plus more, I will never make the money back over the life of the 4-5 years I am going to keep the car.

So any feedback of your experience owning a hybrid, or why I should or shoulnt would be appreciated.

[Shredder565]

I recommend the car from Roger Rabbit. What better car than one that gets great gas mileage, can walk under it's own power using tires as feet, talks back to you, and is virtually indestructible unless it runs into some DIP?

If you can't find one of those, I suggest posting in the proper forum next time :evil:

[Shawn Hopkins]

Wow. I know I shouldn't but this is something worth celebrating. This is epically off topic. It's like he somehow registered for and posted on the wrong Website entirely, by accident. I salute you.

[Shredder565]

The only reason why I replied to his post...Trying a small attempt at humor :).

[R-Taco]

You want eco-friendly, check out what those Flintstones have got goin' for 'em. Zero emissions!

[MonkeyFunk]

I Googled a line from this post and found the exact same thread posted on some other forums, so this looks very much like a spambot. A curious, non-advertising spambot.

Anyways, it's reported now.

[J'onn J'onzz]

I know that the OP is a bot, but to any other members considering a hybrid, I'd recommend you get one.

[Shawn Hopkins]

There's probably a followup tied to this where after our suggestions he says he's decided to go with the the Prius or another hybrid and tells us why it's the best. If for some bizarre reason it doesn't get locked I guess we'll find out eventually.

[J'onn J'onzz]

Wow, this bot has posted this on well over a thousand sites in the last day. That's insane. No followup posts, sadly.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Wow, this bot has posted this on well over a thousand sites in the last day. That's insane. No followup posts, sadly.

Check it out. It's registered at, like, every forum. How can it even do that?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=jdawson1960&btnG=Search

You know, thinking about it I detect a subtle anti-hybrid message being planted in its question. There's an implication there that hybrids are, in fact, not economical. OMG conspiracy!

[Jedigreedo]

I know that the OP is a bot, but to any other members considering a hybrid, I'd recommend you get one.

Indeed.

Gas prices are only low now because less people are driving as they adapted to the higher gas prices, and the economy sucks so people aren't traveling as much in general. If the economy crawls forth again from the cavern of darkness it has receeded into, and people start driving more, then the gas prices will go back up. The problem isn't solved, leaving the Hybrid to be a safe bet.

[purplehairedwonder]

Alright guys, this can actually develop in a decent thread if we stay on topic. So, hybrid cars... have at it.

[Light Lucario]

Even with gas prices going down, I suggest getting a hybrid car anyway. Gas prices can be tricky and they could get really expensive again. More importantly, or just as important depending on your point of view, using a hybrid car is better for the environment. Of course, its all your choice in the end.

[Punisher]

Hybrid cars....pass. For all you who have bought into the eco-freindly propaganda
While hybrids are associated with environmental crusading in pop culture, they actually leave a larger carbon footprint than many conventional vehicles like, for instance, a HUMMER (http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188).

To start off, anything that utilizes an internal combustion engine will still produce pollutants. That includes hybrids. Catalytic converters are designed to handle most of the pollutants, but like any car, hybrids do in fact release greenhouse gas into the atmosphere. The reduction of these gases is mainly because most hybrids have gas engines that turn off when the vehicle comes to a halt (hence the silent killer aspect).

Another major factor in hybrids’ environmental impact are the batteries that store the electricity to power the hybrid drive system. Most hybrids use a nickel metal hydride system, which requires nickel mining (http://www.newcarpark.com/blog/?p=68), which is often done in open cast mines with all the pollution that goes along with excavating large holes in the ground. Sorry, no unicorns. Oh yea, and what of those batteries when they no longer hold a charge? They don’t turn into pixie dust, either. Recycling them costs a chunk of change, so expect to see lovely piles of depleted hybrid batteries oozing battery acid in a landfill near you in the not-too-distant futureThe two links in there are also quite informative. Me, I care about performance first, and that's the real deal killer with Hybrids. I'll stick with my TrailBlazer for now. It's got a hell of an engine for an SUV.
The first step in improving fuel economy is to use a smaller engine. The problem with hybrids, however, is they’re fairly heavy, due in part to the huge batteries they have to lug around. So to start out with, don’t expect a hybrid to “perform” in any traditional sense of the word. Take, for instance, the Ford Escape hybrid. While it weights nearly 2 tons, and it’s combined engine output is 155 horsepower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Escape_Hybrid). Let that sink in for a minute - a vehicle that weights about the same as a Cadillac, powered by an engine that would feel underpowered in a Honda Accord. Don’t forget about the fact that, since it is technically an SUV, it’s supposed to be designed to haul things other than itself. But, with that level of power, you’ll be lucky to haul your ass up the hill .

[Shawn Hopkins]

Alright guys, this can actually develop in a decent thread if we stay on topic. So, hybrid cars... have at it.

Are we going to let robots pick our thread topics, though? I say lock it and show Skynet that the the human spirit WILL NOT BE CONQUERED!:p

[Ed Liu]

The first point Punisher makes about hybrid engines is a classic straw-man argument -- it points out that hybrids still produce emissions, when none of the advocates for hybrids are saying that they don't. However, the argument conveniently forgets that 1) hybrid engines still burn less gas than comparable pure-gas ones, meaning they will produce less emissions, and 2) Toyota's hybrid system can actually drive in pure-electric mode, producing zero emissions while it does so. I'm not sure what is meant by the "silent killer" aspect.

Citing the Ford Escape hybrid as typical of hybrid vehicles is also stacking the deck. 99% of the people driving SUVs are never going to tow anything ever, so the fact that the Ford Escape can't tow things is technically true but practically irrelevant. Anybody who needs to tow things seriously should get a real pickup truck. The engine may also be underpowered compared to other SUVs, but practically speaking, horsepower is not the only gauge of driving ability -- torque matters a lot as well. Electric motors is that they can produce a whole lot of torque at low RPMs, which is exactly the point when gas engines are the least efficient. The former Honda Accord Hybrid was also the most powerful engine you could buy for the model line, in terms of both horsepower, torque, and acceleration, and still got gas mileage ratings comparable to a pure-gas Civic. Empirically, I've driven a pure-gas Nissan Sentra and a Ford Focus and found that neither one felt better in acceleration or handling than my Honda Civic Hybrid, and the HCH definitely got better gas mileage than either vehicle. I also think that cars in general these days are over-powered, but that's a subjective thing.

I can't argue with the statements against nickel mining, but I find it odd that the sudden environmental concern about this and the cost of recycling batteries are enough to justify a decision to drive a gas guzzler instead of a hybrid, without noting the added environmental impact of producing an SUV instead of a car.

I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid in 2003 and my only complaints about it are that its carrying capacity is limited because I have no fold-down rear seats and there's been a persistent problem with the CVT transmission that was in all the high-end Civics that year (it was an option in the standard gas engine cars). I've never felt that it was underpowered. I'm not going to win any drag races with it, but that's not why I bought the thing. On the other hand, averaging 40 MPG over the lifetime of the car in almost pure city driving in a vehicle this size is pretty damn cool. Needing to fill up once every 3 weeks is cool when gas is $2 a gallon, but completely awesome when it's $4. I also bought the thing as a political statement as much as anything to signal that I do, in fact, want cars to get better gas mileage however you choose to do it.

But, hey, it's a free country and there are other options for more fuel-efficient vehicles that aren't hybrids, if you object to things about hybrids. At the moment, I think you are still compromising with them, but I think that's changing.

-- Ed

[SirLemming]

The only reason I don't own a hybrid car is: hybrid cars are new. I'm not wealthy enough to buy new cars, period. 5-10 years from now, we'll see.

[The Irishman]

Hybrid cars are a great thing but there's a few things that some people seem to be oblivious about:

True hybrids allow the electric motor to drive the car on its own. More are available now but not so for older models.
With generally smaller engines than other cars, hybrids don't actually save you any petrol when on the Interstate.
Depending on your annual mileage, it could take years to claw back the differential cost over a regular car, even if petrol is $4+ a gallon.
The Germans have developed diesel technology to such an extent that you can have a 4.0L V8 and still get 50mpg.
And of course there's the question of the batteries. Granted you're not going to be stranded should they die, but let's just say you won't be buying replacements.I'm not railing against hybrids, they're a great idea and one would fit great with my commute, it's just that right now, for the cost, a regular car (like a Civic) makes just as much sense.

[Ed Liu]

True hybrids allow the electric motor to drive the car on its own. More are available now but not so for older models.

The difference between "pure" hybrids and mixed hybrids is there, but it's also largely irrelevant as far as driving the vehicles go. They both save gas, they can both shut down their engines at stop lights, and they both use the same tricks to charge the batteries in the car. The major difference is that only the pure hybrids can be converted to plug-in hybrids, but the majority of people aren't going to do that.

As far as I know, only Toyota offers hybrid engines where the electric motor is large enough to move the vehicle. Everyone else uses the mixed system, where the electric motor just assists the gas when needed. There is a benefit to the mixed-hybrid systems in that they're generally simpler than the pure hybrids, but I think the maintenance records show that the Toyota Prius hasn't suffered from outsized maintenance problems compared to other hybrids.


With generally smaller engines than other cars, hybrids don't actually save you any petrol when on the Interstate.

This is not true. Smaller engines burn less gas than larger ones, so the fact that hybrids use smaller gas engines means they'll burn less gas that comparably sized pure gas engines. The smaller engines don't work any harder at highway speeds, either. Most of the horsepower and torque in car engines is used to get the car moving from a dead stop. It takes a lot of energy to get a car moving, but not anywhere near as much to maintain speed (go review your high school physics if you don't know why). A lot of higher-end cars with 6 and 8 cylinder engines have tech now to shut off extra cylinders at highway speeds. Once you get to 60, those extra cylinders aren't doing anything but wasting gas.

Empirically, I know a few people who drive their hybrids on the highway and still get higher gas mileage than other comparably sized vehicles.


The Germans have developed diesel technology to such an extent that you can have a 4.0L V8 and still get 50mpg.

This is true, but diesel hasn't made the same kind of inroads in the US as in Europe. It's a chicken-and-egg problem of a lack of fueling stations and a lack of vehicles for the ones that are there. Earlier diesel engines also had real problems with higher emissions and difficulty starting in cold weather, but as I understand it these problems are mostly not present any more in the newer models. In any event, hybrids are more popular in the US because of historical aversion to diesel engines and a lack of will to push the tech, and diesels are more popular in Europe because they've had them longer. No reason why different parts of the world can't use different tech to save gas.

-- Ed

[Ickis]

Nah, hybrids are a little over-sophisticated in my book but then again if you drive a car with a hole in the floor and if you switch between using your feet or a sturdy stick and your cars engine then you have a nice redneck hybrid. I sail might work on light cars and using one of those counts as a hybrid right?

[Nightflower]

I'm not sure about hybrids, but I do think it is getting increasingly less practical to buy cars like SUVs and hummers. I mean, I would rather have a fuel efficient car than the ability to off-road... when do I ever do that?

[Ickis]

I'm not sure about hybrids, but I do think it is getting increasingly less practical to buy cars like SUVs and hummers. I mean, I would rather have a fuel efficient car than the ability to off-road... when do I ever do that? If you ever had to drive on country roads or swerving to avoid something but having an economical car is better than being to go off-road but why not have both? Oh yea, because old VW Bugs are seen as underdogs and Suzuki Samurais are rubbish.

[The Irishman]

This is not true. Smaller engines burn less gas than larger ones, so the fact that hybrids use smaller gas engines means they'll burn less gas that comparably sized pure gas engines. The smaller engines don't work any harder at highway speeds, either. Most of the horsepower and torque in car engines is used to get the car moving from a dead stop. It takes a lot of energy to get a car moving, but not anywhere near as much to maintain speed (go review your high school physics if you don't know why). A lot of higher-end cars with 6 and 8 cylinder engines have tech now to shut off extra cylinders at highway speeds. Once you get to 60, those extra cylinders aren't doing anything but wasting gas.

Empirically, I know a few people who drive their hybrids on the highway and still get higher gas mileage than other comparably sized vehicles.

Good response Ed. While you are right about the physics of a cruising car (someone once estimated that 6 horsepower is all that's needed), and the fact that smaller engines generally don't work any harder at such speeds, smaller engined cars (esp. 5-speeds) have lower gear ratios to account for lower torque and horsepower. This means that in a smaller-engined car, you will be running at a higher rpm than a large one. The difference varies along with a lot of other factors, and of course, the faster you go, the more you use!

[KPTitan]

If you can't afford a hybrid car, I would get like a sedan type of car, that's if you don't plan on halling anything though.:sweat: My car is a 2001 Buick LeSabre, and it's gas mileage is unbelievable. I can drive for 4 hours and only take up a half tank of gas.

And doing your usual maintenance like replacing the filters and whatnot regularly, should increase the gas mileage more too.:cool:

[tucsoncoyote]

Well since we're on the subject of hybrid cars, I think the real difference here is that the current 2008, and 2009 models will be completely different from the upcoming 2010 models. For example While Toyota has it's Prius hybrids out now as well as the GM/Saturn Aura and Vue (which is a Hybrid SUV). The New 2010 models will have a function where it will be where you will be able to plug the car into a standard wall outlet and get a charge in about 12 hours or so. But the range on the "Plug ins" are limited to about 40 miles before they lose their charge. But it's because of the computer technology that is on these cars that will make then unique in 2010.

Because when the battery runs down on the 2010 models, the motor will be automatically started so that the gas engine will take over charging the car.

There's hints and rumors that these new "Pluggables" will be capable of 40MPG, but I'm a bit of a skeptic here, and figure that it might be 30MPG at best.. still good gas milage, but not to the point where you'll get better gas milage than most Honda inline engines today on most 2008 models of Honda. (In fact the first car I can attest is the 1977 Honda CVCC which got up to 51 mpg on the high way.. But will we ever see a car to get 60MPG and is a hybrid? That remains to be seen..

But would I buy a hybrid at this point? Not really, as the tech is still too new and that they haven't worked out the kinks for the cars to perform within a realistic reason of 40MPG. But give the car manufacturers time, they'll work out the kinks.

:coyote:

[Ed Liu]

Because when the battery runs down on the 2010 models, the motor will be automatically started so that the gas engine will take over charging the car.

This technology is used right now in all current model hybrids to recharge the batteries, which is why none of them need to be plugged in. The difference between the pluggable ones and the standard model hybrids is that the pluggable ones can drive in pure electric mode (or what my brother-in-law calls "golf cart mode") for much longer. 40 MPG is what most hybrid cars get right now. Going plug-in is already boosting mileage ratings to over 100 MPG (http://www.calcars.org/vehicles.html).


But would I buy a hybrid at this point? Not really, as the tech is still too new and that they haven't worked out the kinks for the cars to perform within a realistic reason of 40MPG. But give the car manufacturers time, they'll work out the kinks.

This is all news to me, since, as I said earlier (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=3050666&postcount=16), my 2003 Civic Hybrid is averaging 40 MPG in real-world driving over the lifetime of the vehicle (and this is from my ridiculously obsessive spreadsheet, not the MPG meter in the car), and this is in pure city driving (and mostly by my wife, who isn't as good as I am at maximizing mileage while she's driving). The HCH also isn't the most efficient hybrid out there, either -- the Honda Insight would score in the 50-60 MPG range regularly in real-world driving, and real-world Prius owners regularly report averages better than 40 MPG.

The "kinks" you describe are gone. They were never there even five years ago. There are production issues, like the impact and availability of battery tech, and demand issues, but hybrids are here now and perfectly usable if you're willing to pay the extra money.

-- Ed