"WWE Friday Night SmackDown" Talkback (Spoilers)

[The Penguin]

Tonight the two possible opponents for Triple H will face off and we will find out the stipulations that can be voted on for the Cyber Sunday Taker-Show match. Don't forget, voting is underway for Cyber Sunday here on TZ (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=218137). You can currently vote on the World (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=218138), WWE (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=218229), I-C (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=218310) and ECW (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=218377) Title matches.


http://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/wwe.jpghttp://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/smackdown.jpgWWE Friday Night SmackDown #479
Friday, October 17, 2008 @ 8 p.m. ET/7 CT on MyNetworkTV

POWER VS. FORM
Vladimir Kozlov and Jeff Hardy go one-on-one for the first time ever tonight on SmackDown. Can Hardy end the Moscow Mauler’s undefeated streak?

[hobbyfan]

What worked:

Hardy-Kozlov. While I didn't like it being billed as "first time ever" (they've battled on the road with each man winning his share), proving once again that what happens on TV is all that matters to Vince, it was a good match, and Jeff was able to extend Kozlov for the first time. It's more likely Kozlov will win the title before Jeff does, that I am certain of.

Spoilers said that Hunter gave Hardy a receipt in the form of a pedigree, but that was after the broadcast had ended.

Rematch between the Colons and Ryder/Hawkins wasn't as good as the first, but for once Primo gained the fall after Carlito was the imperiled face.

What didn't work:

MVP was made to look like a glorified jobber vs. R-Truth. Who did Porter piss off to fall that fast?

Big Show's demonstration vs. 3 anonymous "rent-a-jobbers" fell flat. We didn't need this.

We've seen better matches (if that's possible) between Great Khali & Undertaker, but this had contrived written all over it. Khali & Runjin are definitely turning face, and it looks like Khali will be rematched with Big Show, with the roles reversed this time. And that brings me to......

Potential: Festus & Maria? Good for some comedy, but not a long term angle.

Maria vs. Michelle McCool for the Divas title should be a benchmark as to how far Maria has come as a wrestler.

Vicki Guerrero gets only one segment, but needs to be rid of the psychological dependence on the wheelchair. Preferably now.

[Hobbes829]

House shouldn't matter to storylines as they don't further storylines. That's how it's always been. Not just in Vince's company.

Man you would've really hated wwe in the 80s. All the stars did was fight jobbers. They rarely faced eachother on TV. On tv, stars beat jobbers, then the stars faced eachother on the big events like wrestlemania. If you wanted to see 2 stars fight you had to go to the house show. Jobbers are neccessary to build up stars. Get over it.

So, Kozlov is getting the title because he beats Hardy? What are you talking about? Jobs rarely mean anything. It's just that a job.

Kozlov v. hardy was good, but needed more time to tell the story.

The tag team title match was aweful. There was no story, at least not a good one. There was no heat, no comeback, and very little pop.

MVP deserves better than this. Losing in a competitive match is one thing, but this was pitiful. He needs to be put in a program with someone.

The show really needs Edge back.

Hopefully Kennedy will comeback, and not get injured.

[Marvin Tikvah]

I am highly disappointed with how the WWE has treated MVP lately. He hasn't had a good program with anyone since dropping the U.S. title to Matt Hardy, he's been left off every pay-per-view since Backlash I believe, and he's basically become a jobber to the stars.

I like R-Truth and I definitely like the fact that he's getting his promised push, but I still don't like the fact that the match made MVP look so disposeable.

I was half expecting Big Show to use Chavo in all his demonstrations to continue his torture of him. Those jobbers sure knew how to sell those bumps.

What's with Funaki's new gimmick?

The rest of the night was utterly forgetable, except for the Diva's #1 contendership match, but I'm disappointed in how that turned up as well. Why are they wasting a title shot on Maria when Natalya and Bella are clearly the better choices?

[hobbyfan]

House shouldn't matter to storylines as they don't further storylines. That's how it's always been. Not just in Vince's company.

That's not always true. There have been cases where house shows have been woven into storylines. Most notably, Bret Hart's 1st WWF title win, October 1992, over Ric Flair, ending Flair's last WWF title after just a month. More recently, they did an IC title change about 5 years ago at a house show when Booker T dropped it to Christian because of an injury.


Man you would've really hated wwe in the 80s. All the stars did was fight jobbers. They rarely faced each other on TV. On tv, stars beat jobbers, then the stars faced each other on the big events like wrestlemania. If you wanted to see 2 stars fight you had to go to the house show. Jobbers are neccessary to build up stars. Get over it.

You just made my point for me. Back in the day, television was used to build up selected stars in the upper-to-mid-card (i.e. Putski, Santana, Billy Graham, et al). It isn't done as much anymore, but in this case, Hobbes, you misunderstood what I was talking about. We've seen enough I Quit and Last Man Standing matches, and a "Knockout match" is about the same as a Taped Fist or a Coal Miner's Glove match. Thus, there was no reason to have a "demonstration" in the ring when a regular match would've sufficed.


Kozlov v. hardy was good, but needed more time to tell the story.

More time? It had the last two segments of the show!! Hello! It was Kozlov's longest TV match to date.


The tag team title match was aweful. There was no story, at least not a good one. There was no heat, no comeback, and very little pop.

Huh? Ryder & Hawkins invoked their rematch clause. That's the story to the match, Hobbes. They got the rematch, and failed to get the gold back. The end.


MVP deserves better than this. Losing in a competitive match is one thing, but this was pitiful. He needs to be put in a program with someone.

The show really needs Edge back.

Hopefully Kennedy will comeback, and not get injured.

1. MVP has fallen on hard times. I noted that much. The only solution I can think of is having him use the VIP Lounge to rip into Vicki. He ultimately is "fired", but gets "signed by Mike Adamle" for Raw.

2. Wait no more than about a month for Edge to return. I've a feeling he'll figure into Survivor Series.

3. Kennedy is gone until at least January. We're all hoping he stays healthy this time.

[Hobbes829]

Yeah, but there were cameras at those events, and it's a whole out of sight out of mind.
I'm still not sure what your point is. Jobbers don't bother me, but they apparently bother you. I'm not so sure we're on the same page. I'm also not so sure i made your point for you.
It amounted to around 8 minutes of air time... with Jeff Hardy! Hardy is a main eventer or damn close. The match should have been at least 15 minutes. Also, Kozlov needs to learn how to sell better, and the comeback was a little short.
That's not what i meant by story. Sure, it's part of it. A story in wrestling generally should go: the face either gets attacked at the beginning of the match and has to fight from underneath, or has the upperhand at the beginning because he's smarter, a better wrestler, or has more intestinal fortitude. Then the heel gets the upperhand either through underhanded tactics or the face gets a little overconfident. Then the heel keeps kicking the crap out of the face until through fortitude and fire the face mounts a comeback. Finally, either the face triumphs or the heel pulls the rug out from under their opponent. This match had none of that. It was rushed, it was just a bunch of moves with no context, very little selling, and there was no heat, no comeback and thus very little pop from the crowd. It's not about the moves, it's about drama. Think of wrestling like a book. There's act 1 which has the introduction. The characters and the conflict are introduced. Act 2 contains the rising action. Roadblocks are put in front of the protaganist to keep them from reaching their goal(s). the Final act contains the climax and the resolution. The climax is the highest point of action where everything in the story has been building towards pays off. Finally, the resolution is self explainatory.On a side note, i'm tired of every pin attempt being a 2 count or a near fall. It's breaks credibility, and it doesn't help build a story.

[The Penguin]

I thought the Big Show matches demonstrations was rather uninteresting. Same for the Cyber Sunday match options (which you now vote on here on TZ (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=218475)).

No surprise to see the Colons successfully defend their Tag Titles. I think Hawkins & Ryder and going to have some trouble without Edge's coattails to ride.

I don't know what to make of this Kizarny (or what he says). We'll see how it goes.

"Hey Zeke, nice tights. Do they come in your size? I'm just sayin'." :D

So Khali throws Knoxville around, but doesn't want to take out Undertaker with Show giving the orders? And I was afraid of the McMahon's trying to control Umaga. This could be a much worse idea for Show/Vickie.

Michelle sure didn't seem to respect Maria being the big winner of the "fuzzy dice on a pole" match or whatever (couldn't we have gotten some roulette?). That could be a bad move on her part.

Kenny & Braddock got the match they should have gotten last week and it went about as well as I expected. Braddock will likely never go anywhere, but I'm still mad about Kenny.

Well Kozlov beating Jeff was no surprise with his undefeated record. Triple H tried to sell Kozlov in his commentary and with that big stare down at the end. I still have hopes he will not be voted into the match at all.

[EinBebop]

On a side note, i'm tired of every pin attempt being a 2 count or a near fall. It's breaks credibility, and it doesn't help build a story.I've heard that before, and I disagree. A professional wrestler is going to know when his opponent is close to a pin... or more to the point, when he's not at all close. One-counts means you've greatly underestimated your opponent... a world-class athlete will rarely misread his opponent that badly. There may be story-telling potential there, but only in rare cases... and 90% of those would be building up monsters like the Khalis and Umagas.

[Hobbes829]

I haven't a clue what you're talking about. The reason a guy would kick out at 1 or before is because they're not that badly hurt. Going for pin attempts early and often just tells the crowd you're trying to win. When the purpose of good wrestling is to tell a story that you're trying to win it just makes good sense. Going for a pin cover and getting a 2 count after shoulder tackle 3 minutes into the match makes no sense.

[EinBebop]

Going for pin attempts early and often just tells the crowd you're trying to win.You also said that lack of one counts breaks credibility. I say that a professional wrestler with no ability to discern how much he's worn down his opponent breaks credibility. Obviously we have a difference of opinion here.
Going for a pin cover and getting a 2 count after shoulder tackle 3 minutes into the match makes no sense.That part I would agree with. But then, 21st century wrestling is written for the twitchy ADHD types, and that three minutes is an eternity to them.

[Hobbes829]

The last thing you said is too true, unfortunately. It doesn't help that most wrestlers today can't work a lick. I don't think that it's the lack of territories, i think it's a lack of desire to learn and improve. But that's another story for another time.

As for the first thing. I get what you're saying. I'm not implying that every wrestler should go for a cover every minute. Once in a while, like in a title match i think it's warranted. My beef is that most guys do the 1...2...2 and 9/10 kickout. They're going for nearfalls all the time as if somehow that makes it more dramatic. If they want drama they should learn to sell and show emotion.

[hobbyfan]

Yeah, but there were cameras at those events, and it's a whole out of sight out of mind.
I'm still not sure what your point is. Jobbers don't bother me, but they apparently bother you. I'm not so sure we're on the same page. I'm also not so sure i made your point for you.
It amounted to around 8 minutes of air time... with Jeff Hardy! Hardy is a main eventer or damn close. The match should have been at least 15 minutes. Also, Kozlov needs to learn how to sell better, and the comeback was a little short.
That's not what i meant by story. Sure, it's part of it. A story in wrestling generally should go: the face either gets attacked at the beginning of the match and has to fight from underneath, or has the upperhand at the beginning because he's smarter, a better wrestler, or has more intestinal fortitude. Then the heel gets the upperhand either through underhanded tactics or the face gets a little overconfident. Then the heel keeps kicking the crap out of the face until through fortitude and fire the face mounts a comeback. Finally, either the face triumphs or the heel pulls the rug out from under their opponent. This match had none of that. It was rushed, it was just a bunch of moves with no context, very little selling, and there was no heat, no comeback and thus very little pop from the crowd. It's not about the moves, it's about drama. Think of wrestling like a book. There's act 1 which has the introduction. The characters and the conflict are introduced. Act 2 contains the rising action. Roadblocks are put in front of the protaganist to keep them from reaching their goal(s). the Final act contains the climax and the resolution. The climax is the highest point of action where everything in the story has been building towards pays off. Finally, the resolution is self explainatory.On a side note, i'm tired of every pin attempt being a 2 count or a near fall. It's breaks credibility, and it doesn't help build a story.

I don't have a problem with jobber squashes. It used to be common practice back in the day, as we both noted, but not so much so now.

As for Kozlov-Hardy, if you add the amount of time spent on commercials, the match actually went 11-12 minutes. Had it started, say, at 9:40, with 1 or 2 ad breaks, you probably get the 15:00 match you wanted.

[EinBebop]

I don't have a problem with jobber squashes. It used to be common practice back in the day, as we both noted, but not so much so now. I actually think they need to be used just a little more, particularly for new guys. Example: Santino Marella, right after his debut/IC title win... instead of giving him fluke victories for several weeks (and really, he wasn't credible enough to get the wins over the rest of the roster yet), a few short but competitive jobber matches where he actually got to display a finisher would have served a lot better.

[Tapout]

I actually think they need to be used just a little more, particularly for new guys. Example: Santino Marella, right after his debut/IC title win... instead of giving him fluke victories for several weeks (and really, he wasn't credible enough to get the wins over the rest of the roster yet), a few short but competitive jobber matches where he actually got to display a finisher would have served a lot better.
But if they had actually allowed Santino to turn into a credible wrestler we wouldn't have what is the only reason to watch WWE these days.

[hobbyfan]

I actually think they need to be used just a little more, particularly for new guys. Example: Santino Marella, right after his debut/IC title win... instead of giving him fluke victories for several weeks (and really, he wasn't credible enough to get the wins over the rest of the roster yet), a few short but competitive jobber matches where he actually got to display a finisher would have served a lot better.

Good point. IMPO, the reason Santino doesn't have a clear finishing move is that I don't think he had one when he was called up a year and a half ago, and still doesn't. He's another one of these kids rushed up to the big club before he was really ready.