How would you have managed a line up for Avengers (exposure for Big 3 & 2nd Stringers

[Antiyonder]

Aside from being more of a toy commercial and questionable quality (though I don't have a serious dislike for it), it's been said that the lack of regular appearances of Captain America, Thor and Iron Man was a major factor in the failing of the Avengers. Now looking at both sides:

Big Three-

A. As Bruce Timm states when explaining the efforts to get Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman for Justice League that an Avengers cartoon isn't something that comes along often so you better get it right.

B. People identify Captain America, Iron Man and Thor when they hear Avengers. Those three bring recognition to the table.

However, there are other factors too.

Second Stringers-

A. The comics have pulled off runs with the Second Stringer better than the series. Even the TV Tie In comic did well with them.

B. While Marvel has shown a willing to have shows and movies with their lesser known characters, there's more of a chance of the Big Three getting their own shows (Iron Man being an example of that). Heck even before JLU, there are quite a bit of JL episodes that don't always have the complete Trinity. Even episodes without the Trinity


Getting to the question, I'd probably have kept the same line up from the series with Cap, IM and Thor being reserve members. I'd work that aspect by having at least one of the Big Three showing up in a different episode so you could feel their presence and give them their due without ignoring the Second Stringers. The bigger fights (Most notably the premiere and finale of the season) would incoporated the main 8 members and the Big Three (which would help to convey the intensity of the threats).

I'd mainly have The Big Three on reserve not as a demotion, but because they tend to have a lot of their own enemies and emergencies outside the Avengers.

[AdamYJ]

This is basically a "How would you do an Avengers show?" thread, right.

Well, I'm not crazy about the "Big Three" myself, for various reasons. The thing is, I don't view the Avengers like many people do. Many just act like they're the Marvel version of the Justice League and thus have to have at least the "Big Three" as their heavy-hitters (note, the JLA hasn't always been stocked with big guns, but we'll leave that as the argument for now). There are different types of superhero teams in terms of how characters influence story. There's the JL, which many say are just big guns. There's the X-Men, who have big and small characters within their own circle. There's the FF which are just those four guys for the most part. Now, the Avengers are different from those teams. The Avengers are actually a lot more like a different super-team: the Teen Titans. In that sense, they both have big names (Robin, Captain America, etc) who people like to see. But, they also have lesser lights that give the group their soul and much of its mythos (Scarlet Witch, Starfire, etc). Heck, you could just front-load the team with big names and heavy hitters if you want. The Avengers could be: Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Spider-Man, Daredevil and Wolverine. But the problem is you can't do the wedding of Scarlet Witch and Vision without Scarlet Witch and Vision. You can't use Grim Reaper as a villian without Wonder Man. You catch my drift. So, taking a cue from the Teen Titans cartoon, I decided I would cement the team with a big gun as the backbone of the team and other second stringers working off of that:

Captain America
Giant Man
Wasp
Hawkeye
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Wonder Man
Vision (comes in to replace Simon after his apparent demise).

It's basically a modified "Cap's Kooky Quartet". There would be frequent guest spots by other Avengers, including Thor and Iron Man, but this would be the main team (I understand Pietro's a dark horse choice, but I have my reasons).

[capfan1]

I like the second stringers also,my favorites are hawkeye(clint barton)black panther,ms.marvel and others.You just cannot make an avengers series without the big three.What they should have done was put the big three in the first few shows then alternate the team.The whole format and direction of the show was off.I dont like the fact they used the same voices as the xmen series,with wolverine as hawkeye and rogue as tigra.It makes you kinda think youre watching xmen.I was excited when ultimate avengers came out but dissapointed it was based on the ultimate avengers and not the classic avengers.I really wasnt reading or keeping up with comics then so nick fury being black was just wrong!The other beef I have with the avengers series was not enough action or fighting scenes.It seems like marvel has a problem with fighting scenes in the cartoon shows they make.The team I would start off with is the original team of Ant man,Wasp,Iron man and Thor then the second or third show would show them freeing cap from the ice.It doesnt have to be exactly like the comics but similair in a way.Then they could just keep adding 1 or 2 new avengers every 3 or 4 shows and Thor would leave to Asgard and Iron man would be gone a few shows and return now and then.It would be a fun show to write and produce but very hard.

[AdamYJ]

I like the second stringers also,my favorites are hawkeye(clint barton)black panther,ms.marvel and others.You just cannot make an avengers series without the big three.

You can, and I would. Just like they can make a Teen Titans cartoon without Kid Flash and Wonder Girl and actually proved it.

Then again, I run hot and cold on the "Big Three". I generally don't even read their solo books. I don't find them that interesting. I'm only reading Thor right now because of Straczinsky writing it, and I generally find him to be the dullest of the trio (you want an exciting god on the Avengers, you get Hercules). And the only version of Iron Man I currently read is Marvel Adventures.


I dont like the fact they used the same voices as the xmen series,with wolverine as hawkeye and rogue as tigra.It makes you kinda think youre watching xmen.

Wolverine wasn't Hawkeye. Gambit's second voice was Hawkeye.

Anyway, I'm not sure if your idea to have characters joining and leaving the team constantly would work. It would in the comics and has, but not on TV. I think most purveyors of animated shows would be nervous about having such an unstable cast when you don't know how long the show will go on for. What I'd suggest is instead to do like Justice League Unlimited and have one really big team of Avengers and pair it down into smaller groups depending on what missions there are.

[Antiyonder]

You can, and I would. Just like they can make a Teen Titans cartoon without Kid Flash and Wonder Girl and actually proved it.

But you still have Robin as the main character. At the very least, Captain America should have been a part of the cast.

[AdamYJ]

But you still have Robin as the main character. At the very least, Captain America should have been a part of the cast.

Look at my suggested lineup. :D :p

Y'know, the problem is that there are too many cool Avengers and not enough chances to put them in cartoons. Like Hercules. Marvel's version of Herc is awesome, but you never see him on TV or anything. And what about the Black Knight? Or Photon (aka Captain Marvel). Or Justice, Firestar, Living Lightning, Quasar or Starfox. I could just keep going on.

[Antiyonder]

Look at my suggested lineup. :D :p

I'm aware of that. I was just pointing out my disagreement at the TT analogy. Besides it seems like that particular group actually had better reception than the Junior JLA.


Y'know, the problem is that there are too many cool Avengers and not enough chances to put them in cartoons. Like Hercules. Marvel's version of Herc is awesome, but you never see him on TV or anything. And what about the Black Knight? Or Photon (aka Captain Marvel). Or Justice, Firestar, Living Lightning, Quasar or Starfox. I could just keep going on.

Hence, my reason for using the reserve status for The Big Three as it explains them not being part of the main cast, but makes it plausible for them to show up regularly and all at once on multiparters.

Going further though, I think a more well made Force Works cartoon could be made as a companion to any later Avenger shows. Avengers being Cap's show with Force Works being Iron Man's show.

[capfan1]

You cant have an avengers show without the big three,it wouldnt last past 1 season,and that already happened.You cant compare the teen titans to the avengers,they are more of a kids cartoon.I really saw nothing great about hercules the marvel character.I like thor much better,although he wasnt that great in ultimate avengers .Hawkeye's voice in the avengers is the same as wolverines in xmen the animated series right?Anyway I just want Captain america in a series,either his own or the avengers as a reguler appearing hero. If any hero that hasnt had his own series deserves it,its Cap.

[Antiyonder]

You cant have an avengers show without the big three,it wouldnt last past 1 season,and that already happened.

A. I'm not saying that the big three should be left out, but that they could rotate which of them appear in certain episodes so that both they and the second string members could get a good amount of focus. The instory justification would be that Cap, Thor and IM are busier than the other Avengers and that not all of them can answer the call.

B. Thing is that the main reason the show failed was it's less inspired writing and story telling. There've been runs before in the comic that were entertaining despite inclusion of the big three. While Spider-Man and X-Men were made to sell toys, there were at least attempts at making them compelling in the writing department.

[ShadowDemon]

Personally, I'd've avoided the "Big Three" issue entirely (if they weren't available) by doing the West Coast Avengers...that way you could use whatever 2nd stringers you wanted, and have the East Coast "big guns" available for cameos (if permitted).

[AdamYJ]

B. Thing is that the main reason the show failed was it's less inspired writing and story telling. There've been runs before in the comic that were entertaining despite inclusion of the big three. While Spider-Man and X-Men were made to sell toys, there were at least attempts at making them compelling in the writing department.

Okay, if we're throwing down the reasons here, let's just get straight to the point.

The Avengers cartoon failed because Marvel went bankrupt at that point. Because of some faulty business practices, Marvel filed Chapter 11 and had to pull the plug on a lot of the projects they had going at the time. The Avengers was the most popular cartoon in its timeslot that year for boys age 6-11. A second season was planned. Word was already going around about an episode with a planned Thor guest appearance and an episode guest starring the X-Men. Then the other shoe dropped. That's why the show "failed".

Kids who don't read comics don't know what "The Big Three" is. They aren't bothered by them using armor instead of the traditional costumes. And kids are able to let things like "writing and storytelling" slide (don't believe me? Go watch some of the cartoons you absolutely loved as a little kid and come back to me).

[Antiyonder]

Kids who don't read comics don't know what "The Big Three" is. They aren't bothered by them using armor instead of the traditional costumes. And kids are able to let things like "writing and storytelling" slide (don't believe me? Go watch some of the cartoons you absolutely loved as a little kid and come back to me).

Hey, now all age groups will watch something with quality and something with crap. Sure we watched crap like Power Rangers and Beetleborgs (No offense), but we also watched Gargoyles, Batman The Animated Series and X-Men.

Batman (counting the KidsWB Animated episodes) and X-Men not only made it to 65 episodes, but they went up to 109 and 76 episodes. There are case when our interests can be described by Nostalgia, and times when we have a valid reason for praising a show.

Then there's the fact that Fox Kids focused more on The Pokemon styled shows rather than just trying to have a diverse line up. Heck, the only reason X-Men got an airing on the schedule was to cash in on the movie's success.

[AdamYJ]

Hey, now all age groups will watch something with quality and something with crap. Sure we watched crap like Power Rangers and Beetleborgs (No offense), but we also watched Gargoyles, Batman The Animated Series and X-Men.

Batman (counting the KidsWB Animated episodes) and X-Men not only made it to 65 episodes, but they went up to 109 and 76 episodes. There are case when our interests can be described by Nostalgia, and times when we have a valid reason for praising a show.

Then there's the fact that Fox Kids focused more on The Pokemon styled shows rather than just trying to have a diverse line up. Heck, the only reason X-Men got an airing on the schedule was to cash in on the movie's success.

X-Men was actually a very corny, melodramatic show when you go back and look at it. Also, Batman was aimed at a slightly older age group (boys 9-14).

Anyway, what I'm saying is true. I remember reading about it. The show was popular and a second season was being planned. It just ended for other business-related reasons.

I just hate when people start casting their views of why a show "failed" when they really don't know. It's like how all those people bemoaning made up reasons why JLU was "cancelled" when pretty much every interview pointed to Timm and company choosing to end it themselves.

[TheVileOne]

It's simple. You use a balance. The 1999 series was terrible. And one of the reasons it was terrible is because it was a ham n eggers team. There were a lot of other reasons it was terrible, but not having Cap, Iron Man, and Thor as regulars was a big part of it.

JL used a lot of characters including the A characters and even the B and C characters.

Just because the comics successfully had good runs with B teams, if you do a new Avengers show that's better than any before it, you want to do a show with the classic line-up.

Throughout history the most classic Avengers line-up with the best stories would feature some combination of Iron Man, Cap, Thor, Hawkeye, Ant-Man/Giant-Man, Wasp, the Vision, and the Scarlet Witch.

If we are finally getting an Avengers, that's AVENGERS, and not Ultimate Avengers, then Marvel finally has a chance to man up and erase all those terrible memories of United. That means giving us a show with Cap, Iron Man, and Thor.

Here's the other thing. An Avengers movie in 2011 is definitely going to feature Cap, Thor, and Iron Man in it. So there's no way they will not be main members of the cast in the new show.

[AdamYJ]

Throughout history the most classic Avengers line-up with the best stories would feature some combination of Iron Man, Cap, Thor, Hawkeye, Ant-Man/Giant-Man, Wasp, the Vision, and the Scarlet Witch.

Couldn't they at least put a little Wonder Man in there before Vision joins? Simon is, like, my favorite Avenger EVER. And he's more important than you think. Vision has his brain engrams. The Grim Reaper, one of the Avengers' recurring foes, is his brother. And he was in love with Wanda. Not to mention being the first Avenger to defy death.

Also, I'm going to plead that they at least make Thor more like his Heroes Reborn counterpart, because that's the only version of Thor that doesn't bore me to tears.


If we are finally getting an Avengers, that's AVENGERS, and not Ultimate Avengers, then Marvel finally has a chance to man up and erase all those terrible memories of United. That means giving us a show with Cap, Iron Man, and Thor.

I like United. :mad:

[TheVileOne]

Couldn't they at least put a little Wonder Man in there before Vision joins? Simon is, like, my favorite Avenger EVER. And he's more important than you think. Vision has his brain engrams. The Grim Reaper, one of the Avengers' recurring foes, is his brother. And he was in love with Wanda. Not to mention being the first Avenger to defy death.

How do you know they won't? All we have is one promo image. Look at the amount of characters in Wolverine and The X-men.

Simon/Wonder Man is a great character, but he can't carry an Avengers show nor can Vision.


I like United. :mad:Don't take this the wrong way because I am NOT trying to be mean. But you were in the minority that liked it. The show was a dismal failure, and it's an embarrassment to Marvel Studios. And those are facts, that being that the show was a failure and it was an embarrassment. I understand for your tastes it worked since it the smaller name characters instead of Cap, Thor, and Iron Man. But the problem is if the show had the big names it probably would've lasted longer meaning you still would've gotten more stories with the lesser characters instead of not even an entire season of the Power Rangers wannabe lameness. Also Hawkeye with a Wolverine voice, also bad.

[AdamYJ]

Don't take this the wrong way because I am NOT trying to be mean. But you were in the minority that liked it. The show was a dismal failure, and it's an embarrassment to Marvel Studios. And those are facts, that being that the show was a failure and it was an embarrassment. I understand for your tastes it worked since it the smaller name characters instead of Cap, Thor, and Iron Man. But the problem is if the show had the big names it probably would've lasted longer meaning you still would've gotten more stories with the lesser characters instead of not even an entire season of the Power Rangers wannabe lameness. Also Hawkeye with a Wolverine voice, also bad.

But you're completely wrong about why the show "failed".

It wasn't unpopular. It ended because of Marvel business issues (I'm pretty sure this was right around the time Marvel Comics filed for bankruptcy). There was a second season planned and everything. I read it somewhere.

Let me ask this: have you ever read anything anywhere that states why the show didn't have a second season?

[ShadowDemon]

And one of the reasons it was terrible is because it was a ham n eggers team.

That's BS...many of the "second" and "third" string characters are just as good as the "big guns" but the "names" get more marketing.

[DawnWarrior]

If we're just talking about the roster, let me check my notes...

I'd start with the founders: Loki tricks Thor into a battle with Hulk. Iron Man, Giant-Man, and Wasp show up to help, and they all team up to battle Loki. In the background, Captain America is this larger-than-life figure who vanished at the height of WWII. In the second ep, Cap is found and revived, and decides to join and train this new team. Rick Jones is there too.

So the first 5 eps or so is just the founders: We have Cap as the first super-hero whipping these guys into shape. We have Iron Man/Tony funding the team and being the resident tech-meister. Thor is the most powerful member, and gives the team additional prestige. Giant-Man/Hank kind of has something to prove, but feels overshadowed by Iron Man's science know-how, Cap's fame, and Thor's raw power. Wasp is the celebrity of the group, charismatic and talky, doing a lot of interviews and raising some good publicity for the team. And Rick, long story short, is a mascot (I'll save my "How I'd do Rick Jones" for another thread.) Namor and Black Panther both get spotlight episodes.

A three-part episode has the gang battling the Masters of Evil, a plot which includes Wonder Man. Hawkeye and Falcon show up here to help fight off the MoE. In the next ep, a recruitment drive brings in Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and Tigra, who would then become regulars. Rick would leave at this point. From there, I'd introduce Ultron and then Vision. Episodes spotlighting Falcon in his Harlem stomping grounds, Hawkeye revisiting the circus, or Magneto showing up to reclaim Wanda and Pietro would be fairly simple. (Oh, and we should have an ep where all the heavy-hitters are busy, leaving Cap with just the classic "kooky quartet" to take into battle.)

Soon more super-heroes show up, like Black Widow, Hercules, and Black Knight; maybe even Stingray, She-Hulk, Photon, Beast, and Firebird, depending on how the season is laid out. I'd introduce Ms. Marvel, Quasar, and Mar-Vell in a big Kree/Skrull War season finale, which also sees appearances from every single Avenger introduced by that point.

[Crash]

Maybe I'm just wierd, but I've always liked the idea that the Avengers are somwhat government sanctioned. I think that would be an interesting direction for a show to take, and would help out with the balance issue.

Split the 'team' into two parts: The superheros, like Thor and Iron Man, who have secret identities and solo carreers who work with the team when they can, or when they have to. And then the proffessionals, like Captain America, who work as Avengers full time. I'm thinking Cap's Kooky Quartette would be great here, with Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver working as some sort of parole. The freelancers could get some sort of legal sanction that makes them more than just vigilanties, whithout becoming government lackeys. And the professionals could be sent after specific objectives, and, well, would get paid. The idea would need some fleshing out, I think it has its advantages.

The big guns could be available at a moment's notice, without having them dominate every episode. And other secondary characters could rotate in-and-out of the line-up. Helping out when they have the time and calling for help when they need it. Again, a way to have a vast cast without having to have everyone there all the time.

Course the news of an actual Avengers toon in the works kinda makes all this speculation moot...

[TheVileOne]

But you're completely wrong about why the show "failed".

It wasn't unpopular. It ended because of Marvel business issues (I'm pretty sure this was right around the time Marvel Comics filed for bankruptcy). There was a second season planned and everything. I read it somewhere.

This is actually wrong. Avengers and Spider-man Unlimited were Marvel coming back and returning to animation. The issues you are referring to as well as a lawsuit with ToyBiz caused the death of Silver Surfer which did have a planned second season with episodes that were written after a very successful third season AND the WWII Captain America animated series that was in production before it was axed. This was back in 1998. Silver Surfer was a successul show and got good ratings. Season 2 scripts were written, but the show died after the season finale (with Thanos ending everything) because of Marvel's issues.

These shows were not popular and they didn't make it past one season.

Marvel's bankruptcy happened in 1996. Avengers and Spider-man Unlimited aired in 1999-2000. This was around the time Marvel was coming out of bankruptcy. So the shows getting cancelled did not happen as the same time as the bankruptcy happened.


Let me ask this: have you ever read anything anywhere that states why the show didn't have a second season?

Yup. Cancelled.

[AdamYJ]

This is actually wrong. Avengers and Spider-man Unlimited were Marvel coming back and returning to animation. The issues you are referring to as well as a lawsuit with ToyBiz caused the death of Silver Surfer which did have a planned second season with episodes that were written after a very successful third season AND the WWII Captain America animated series that was in production before it was axed. This was back in 1998. Silver Surfer was a successul show and got good ratings. Season 2 scripts were written, but the show died after the season finale (with Thanos ending everything) because of Marvel's issues.

These shows were not popular and they didn't make it past one season.

Marvel's bankruptcy happened in 1996. Avengers and Spider-man Unlimited aired in 1999-2000. This was around the time Marvel was coming out of bankruptcy. So the shows getting cancelled did not happen as the same time as the bankruptcy happened.

Yup. Cancelled.

Well, I do remember talks of a second season with guest spots for Thor and the X-Men.

Anyway, I watched the Iron Man movie last night and what won me over for Tony is that he was funny. Some of his lines really made me laugh. So, if he were to be like that all the time, I'd be fine with him. Of course, it might have just stemmed from Robert Downey, Jr.'s improvisations and delivery.

[AlgeaX]

The "big three" may bring the star power to the Avengers, but in my mind The Avengers as a book has always been the story of what I call the "core five": Wasp, Hank Pym, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and the Vision. When one looks at the best classic Avengers tales, it's always these five who end up carrying the emotional weight of the story.

Just think about Ultron, arguably he Avengers greatest nemesis; who are the heroes with the most personal stake in battling this monster? Cap? Tony? Thor? No, its Hank, Jan, Vision and to a lesser extent Wanda and Simon.

[AdamYJ]

The "big three" may bring the star power to the Avengers, but in my mind The Avengers as a book has always been the story of what I call the "core five": Wasp, Hank Pym, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and the Vision. When one looks at the best classic Avengers tales, it's always these five who end up carrying the emotional weight of the story.

Just think about Ultron, arguably he Avengers greatest nemesis; who are the heroes with the most personal stake in battling this monster? Cap? Tony? Thor? No, its Hank, Jan, Vision and to a lesser extent Wanda and Simon.

They're the ones that stuff happens to in the pages of Avengers. Cap, Tony and Thor have their own books. Stuff happens to them there.

Hey, remember when Ultron kidnapped the people he thought of as "family" in the Ultron Unlimited story? It was Vision, Wanda, Hank, Jan, Simon and the Grim Reaper.

[Jordacar]

They're the ones that stuff happens to in the pages of Avengers. Cap, Tony and Thor have their own books. Stuff happens to them there.Exactly. On an Avengers toon, Cap, Thor and IM probably aren't going to have their own shows running concurrently (who knows if IM:Armor Adventures will still be on in 2011 or if it will play into this toon), so the main Avengers cartoon is going to have to cover Big3-centric stories, some of which will have occured in the comics in the individual books. Which brings us back to what this whole thread is about...

[TheVileOne]

Believe it or not stuff happened to Cap, Thor, and Iron Man in Avengers that didn't happen to them in their own books.

Iron Man even dated the Wasp for instance.

[AlgeaX]

Believe it or not stuff happened to Cap, Thor, and Iron Man in Avengers that didn't happen to them in their own books.



Iron Man even dated the Wasp for instance.


There are exceptions to every rule, but for the most part you couldn't really mess with the big three outside their respective solo books. Which means that "second stringers" like Hawkeye or Vision had to carry the dramatic weight of most Avengers stories. I suspect that's why Stan and Heck originally phased out the founders in favour of Cap's Kooky Quartet.

[AdamYJ]

Exactly. On an Avengers toon, Cap, Thor and IM probably aren't going to have their own shows running concurrently (who knows if IM:Armor Adventures will still be on in 2011 or if it will play into this toon), so the main Avengers cartoon is going to have to cover Big3-centric stories, some of which will have occured in the comics in the individual books. Which brings us back to what this whole thread is about...

What classic Cap, Thor or Iron Man stories do you think could be converted well into Avengers stories?

[TheVileOne]

Well Cap being thawed out and joining the Avengers for one. Another one is when he loses his shield, except when it's recovered, it's basically shattered to pieces. The thing is that Cap's shield is such an important part of him, it's almost like an extra appendage or a dear friend. And when he loses it at first it's somewhat awkward and he has to deal with some inferior replacements.

For Thor they could do the story where he went to war with the Marvel Universe, and Iron Man went to toe to toe with Thor in his Thor-buster armor.

For Iron Man, they could do the secret assassin story. Also, his issues with Carol Danvers which carried over from Avengers into the Iron Man book in the late 90's. Also Armor Wars is another one since during that storyline Iron Man went after heroes including Cap.

[DawnWarrior]

Don't forget the story where Cap is ostracized from the government and replaced by Johnny Walker. That would play well over a season.

Maybe the Surter Saga for Thor.