What Happened to Bruce Timm's Style?!

[Caped Crusader]

I think JL has completely strayed away from Bruce Timm's style after comparing it to his previous shows, TNBA and S:TAS. In JL the characters, IMO, are way over-detailed. Compare WW to Lois Lane, they look totally different. And Superman...I won't even go there! :eek: I just don't think all of the lines and details are necessary--they just make the characters less pleasing to look at.

What are your thoughts on the subject?

[BLACKHEART]

My thoughts? Superman doesn't look so super

[JohnStewart-GL]

i just got done watching War world and i didnt see anything wrong with supes look.

[Bird Boy]

I dunno..I like the more detailed look. It's not just so streamlined anymore. I always thought TAS was detailed, then when TNBA came around, it was just straight lines basically..... (which was good..it looked "clean")...now JL is a mixture of both, and I love it... :)

-BB

[The Flash]

Actually, I think it went BACK to his style. I never liked the streamlined look. JL is kinda cross between BTAS and TNBA. ......I like it. :)

[Heehaw]

Since Timm designed it all, it is all his style. His style has evolved, though not necessarily for the better(for me).

[The Flash]

....good point. :)

[GL2k2]

His style is definitely still there. And why would Wonder Woman look like Lois Lane, they are completely different people. It's like comparing Courtney Cox to Catherine Zeta Jones, you just don't do it.

[Caped Crusader]

Originally posted by GL2k2
His style is definitely still there. And why would Wonder Woman look like Lois Lane, they are completely different people. It's like comparing Courtney Cox to Catherine Zeta Jones, you just don't do it.


When I compared Lois Lane to WW, I was talking about how all of the women in general have changed from his previous shows. I think WW looks nothing like what Bruce Timm's style used to be.

[Livewire]

I thought I was the only one who had noticed this, Caped Crusader! Interesting topic.


I’ve been studying Bruce Timm’s art for quite some time, from his work in the ‘80’s, to the present, and as it was previously stated by Heehaw, his style has certainly evolved. In the ‘80’s, he hadn’t quite acquired his style yet, and with the advent of B:TAS, he had finally attained it. In fact, in the mid ’90's, he was at his peak, especially with his own sketches. He did some of his best ones during this period. Sure, the people in B:TAS looked bulky and too detailed at times, but it fit the show. (It’s true.) It still looked like his style. I can’t imagine it being done in the TNBA way. It wouldn’t have gone with the whole feel and atmosphere of B:TAS.


But B:TAS wasn’t everything Bruce Timm had wanted it to be, as you can read in this excerpt from a Comicology issue:

"I can't even look at [BTAS] anymore. I look at them now and can't believe how ugly they are … how slow they are."

On BTAS vs "The New Batman Adventures:

“I think that the newer style is infinitely superior; all across the board, it's better. I never like the way Bruce looked . I tried to give him a Dick Tracy nose - a big, sharp nose. Overseas interpreted it as this big, ugly, broken nose. [All the characters looked] fat and baggy. By giving it that streamlined, angular style - it still looks sharp and elegant, [more consistent] and it's just animated better. “(end of quote)





When S:TAS came out, ahh that was wonderful to see. What an improvement over B:TAS! It epitomized his art style to a tee. Supes and the rest weren’t overly simplified like TNBA.(Actually, I really only had a problem with Alfred and The Ventriloquist- [I]too simplified!) Everything, imo, was perfect. It was B:TAS style without being overly detailed with too many lines. The bodies were slimmed down-it was great.



I think his style started to change when he began working on BB. But even that show looked better than JL. His art is different now, which really shows in Justice League. No longer does he follow his “straight on curve” rule that he used to use on people’s arms. And instead of the characters having smooth, flat shoulders, they have a hump; this goes for the women too, not just the men.



Oh, and the women! Yes, CC, I know what you mean. The woman in his previous shows looked…well, womanly. Just look at my avatar- the women that are in JL and the ones that he draws now do not look like that anymore. WW definitely would not have looked like she does in JL if she had shown up in S:TAS or TNBA. She has too many lines- and those cheeks! Why does she have to have those high cheekbones? They’re not necessary, imo. She’d look a lot better without them. Come to think of it, every woman I’ve seen in JL has those same cheeks, save Hawkgirl. (At least, I don’t think she does-I’d have to see her without her mask.)

And let’s not even get into Superman! UGH!! Look at the S:TAS Supes and then look at the JL version. Compare them, and you’ll see what I mean. There is no reason for him be so ugly. Batman doesn’t seem to have changed as much. It couldn’t have been that many years since “Legacy”. There’s no cause for him to look that old! He doesn’t even appear to be the same character! I used to think Supes was handsome, but now? Blech!


Even seller’s of BT’s art on EBAY make sure that buyer’s know when they’re selling his ‘old’ stuff. One seller said, and I quote: “Vintage art from the mid-‘90’s, NOT the new stuff!”. See, other people noticed it, too.



It’s sadly true-JL is BT’s style; it’s how he now draws. I personally enjoy his ‘vintage’ art and his older shows best.

[JohnStewart-GL]

it got better to me. Now Supes looks less like Bruce. He doesnt look old to me.
And whats wrong with Dianas Cheeks. They look just fine. IF she didnt have have em she'd look like a taller version of Lois.

[iKlEiTlH]

I know what you mean CC...
I also thought those extra lines on supe's and ww's cheeks make them look um...
"not like the old BT animated style"
I was even wondering during "Paradise Lost" whether or not the lines on ww's cheeks were really part of her face or her were just strands of hair coming down or something.
They just make the characters look really aged...
I'd say supes got it the worst though...
Now I know he's supposed to be an older version anyway, but still...
I don't think it was necessary for them to age him by that much...

[DerekPowers]

actually, id tend to disagree to a degree.

as far as a general look, id say jl is definately bruce timm style. but as far as detail, the backgrounds are more detailed, but the characters arent.

actually, in my honest opinion, the jl characters are WAY too generic looking in their rendering. if you watch some of the better animated eps of btas or tnba, the detail of the characters far surpasses that on jl. there was always a nice amount of shading on the characters faces and bodies, which seems to be either lost or down played on jl. also the highlights on the jler's costumes and hair seems SO much more sloppy than in previous series. i hate the shine in superman's hair in jl, its so sloppy and why is it white/grey, it makes him look old. i liked the blue streak better.

also, since were talking detail, everyone im sure has noticed the crappy S on superman's costume.

ww's face isnt detailed enough, if you ask me. its so freaking generic looking imo.

imo tnba and btas had much more solid character designs which were drawn much better and w/ much better detail and craftmanship than any of the jl eps so far. just adding a line or two on superman's face and calling more detailed doesnt cut it for me. they arent more detailed as far as shading and overall drawing, they are way more sloppy and unclear than other series, but ofcourse, this is my opinion. peace.

[Heehaw]

I can't even look at [BTAS] anymore. I look at them now and can't believe how ugly they are … how slow they are."

I disagree with Bruce Timm. It's a matter of taste, I suppose. BTAS told it's stories through acting, composition, suspense, and the like. TNBA takes more of an action approach, but still maintains some of the older show's charms. I prefer the old "slow" style.

Alot of his banter, about his preference of TNBA style over BTAS style can be chalked up to the PR machine and promoting the newer show over the old. It's a form of politics and spin. He may very well like the newer stuff more than the old, but he also has to positively and constructively promote the fresher material so as not to sabotage ratings.

Justice League is the current standard. I truly believe that secretly he is not too happy about the way the show turned out, but he still has to maintain a postive stance towards all aspects of it while it is on the air. Maybe one day he will come forth and tell the world his feelings on it. The same positives that he attributes to JL he also said about BTAS(and the interview above contradicts those original statements).

[Salvor]

Originally posted by Heehaw


I disagree with Bruce Timm. It's a matter of taste, I suppose. BTAS told it's stories through acting, composition, suspense, and the like. TNBA takes more of an action approach, but still maintains some of the older show's charms. I prefer the old "slow" style.

Alot of his banter, about his preference of TNBA style over BTAS style can be chalked up to the PR machine and promoting the newer show over the old. It's a form of politics and spin. He may very well like the newer stuff more than the old, but he also has to positively and constructively promote the fresher material so as not to sabotage ratings.

Justice League is the current standard. I truly believe that secretly he is not too happy about the way the show turned out, but he still has to maintain a positive stance towards all aspects of it while it is on the air. Maybe one day he will come forth and tell the world his feelings on it. The same positives that he attributes to JL he also said about BTAS(and the interview above contradicts those original statements).
BT's stance is very contradictory sometimes. In fact, he usually says he thinks "some" of the old shows look ugly, not all of them, which is definitely true. In this interview his judgement was harsher than usual (and quite surprising I must say)

[Spider]

Is Bruce Timm contradictory, or is he presenting a dichotomy intentionally? (I'm asking the question, not looking to be flamed! ;))

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Heehaw
I disagree with Bruce Timm. It's a matter of taste, I suppose. BTAS told it's stories through acting, composition, suspense, and the like. TNBA takes more of an action approach, but still maintains some of the older show's charms. I prefer the old "slow" style.


The only thing I really dislike about the BTAS style -- and which I disliked at the time -- was how slow people were in moving across the screen. Watching someone walk out a door was like watching a glacier move.

It may have simply been superior editing or storyboarding technique rather than character-design that was responsible for it, but I never had that same feeling in STAS or TNBA.

[Livewire]

Originally posted by iKlEiTlH
I know what you mean CC...
I also thought those extra lines on supe's and ww's cheeks make them look um...
"not like the old BT animated style"
I was even wondering during "Paradise Lost" whether or not the lines on ww's cheeks were really part of her face or her were just strands of hair coming down or something.
They just make the characters look really aged...
I'd say supes got it the worst though...
Now I know he's supposed to be an older version anyway, but still...
I don't think it was necessary for them to age him by that much...


I agree with everything you said! Those are my thoughts exactly. Supes could have looked older wighout those cheeks and all the lines. And WW would have looked prettier without the cheeks also. She's supposed to be beautiful.


And aside to JohnStewart-GL, without the cheeks, WW would still look nothing like Lois, imo. WW's face shape, hair style, eyes, and nose are completely different from Lois'. Is it just because they have black hair that you think they would look alike? Because if that is the case, Lana, Barbara Gordon, and Poison Ivy all have red hair and they look totally dissimilar.

[Heehaw]

The only thing I really dislike about the BTAS style -- and which I disliked at the time -- was how slow people were in moving across the screen. Watching someone walk out a door was like watching a glacier move.

See, like I said it has all to do with taste. I, for one, love stuff like what you just described. It adds a real world texture to the whole thing and makes it much more than a "cartoon".

It's the little things that make the show. It raises the material, when done only average or even below average, to a higher plane. BTAS(and TNBA to an extent) had a soul. Blood, sweat, and tears were poured into it, and it shows. It was a commercial venture, while at the same time a labor of love. It raised the bar of quality in American TV animation(and animation in general).

Something like JL is missing that type of substance and dedication; thus, for me it's not as strong of a program. It's more commercial and about marketing than anything else.

[James Harvey]

I think where some of the style is lost is due to the poor translation from page to animation. I ma really not impressed with the animation that AKOM...er...KOKO is turning out. There were some neat animated sequences in some of the episodes, but the animation has been only fair overall. The coloring is another matter. The shiney look doesn't work all the time, making Batman look out of place initially. I am hoping this is just like Batman Beyond, and it'll take a few episodes for them to get the coloring to work right. Did I stary off topic? Anyways to sum up - I think the animation can take at least partial blame here.

[Harvey Dent]

Originally posted by Jim Harvey
I think where some of the style is lost is due to the poor translation from page to animation. I ma really not impressed with the animation that AKOM...er...KOKO is turning out.

I feel the same way. Just look at the picture of Superman in the background of this page and compare it to Superman when animated. I can't help but wonder why they look so different. In fact, the only time Superman's face looked right was briefly during "Secret Origins" when he was holding up that tank to shield Batman and J'onn. There were no lines under his eyes, yet he still looked mature. If only his face could remain that way throughout the entire series, then I'd have no problems with the show visually.

[James Harvey]

I totally agree. Superman is no animated well at all on this series. There are some scenes where he looks just horrible. He was handled ok in Secret Origins, as you mentioned but not so well since. If this show gets the second season greenlight, I think they should tweak Superman a bit. Lose the lines under his eyes that seem to cause problems for the animators (which shouldn't, BTW).

[JohnStewart-GL]

Originally posted by Jim Harvey
I totally agree. Superman is no animated well at all on this series. There are some scenes where he looks just horrible. He was handled ok in Secret Origins, as you mentioned but not so well since. If this show gets the second season greenlight, I think they should tweak Superman a bit. Lose the lines under his eyes that seem to cause problems for the animators (which shouldn't, BTW).
the lines under his eyes should be removed. but whats funny is sometimes he doesnt have em. but i thought he looked good in War World.