Is Joker really insane?

[M'ral]

This is a question I've been pondering for a while now. I think (or at least, hope) we all agree that the things Joker does are unspeakably and undeniably evil and sickening. But my question is, are they truly sick? Is the Joker really insane, i.e does he know the difference between right and wrong? And if he is sane, how does he keep winding up in Arkham? Your thoughts?

[Chibi Kageboshi]

my question is why do they keep giving him parol? i think its arkham thats insane :P

[M'ral]

That's funny, I can't remember Joker ever being released--as far as I know, he always breaks out. But I could be wrong. :confused: But any institution that would release the Joker would definately need their collective heads examined.

[The Penguin]

I think the Joker knows what he's doing is sick and twisted. One of the things that makes him insane in that he takes so much joy in the suffering he inflicts on others. He's clearly unstable otherwise he wouldn't do those types of things.

The Penguin is a criminal, but he isn't going to do anything really twisted to you, he'll just get what he's after and take his leave.

Now think about "Joker's Favor," Mr. J knew he would be screwing with Charlie's head until he called in the favor, and he thought it was funny as hell. :D :D

[Borg4of3]

Being mentally unstable doesn't necessarily mess with your intelligence, and an insane man can be just as manipulative and intelligible as any normal man. One of the scariest things about the Joker that people don't always realize how intelligent he is. He has proven a genius at chemicals, technology, and criminal psychosis. He has that Batman-level capability to do pretty much anything. But wheras Batman's obsession causes him to ignore his physical limits to do whats right, the Joker's insanity helps him to ignore all common sense of what is right and do what he considers 'fun' - which would be to bring sensationalism and shock value to life, to ruin peoples lives in the form of a mere joke. The Joker is not only pure and unadulterated insanity, he is the very face of evil.

[M'ral]

I agree that the Joker is evil, but IMHO that in itself proves that he is in fact sane. In order for an act to be truly evil, the person commiting the act must be aware that it is evil, and the definition of an insane person is someone who doesn't know right from wrong. The two are incompatible. You're either evil or insane, not both. The United States justice system is based in part on this principle. The Joker obviously knows that his actions are wrong, and he chooses to do them anyway and takes pleasure in the results. That is not insane. That is evil.

Sadly, the judges on the Gotham circuit seem to disagree, since they continually send Joker to Arkham instead of prison. :rolleyes:

[TimTwoFace]

The Joker is evil, and ACTS insane, but I think he is sane. As we can see in his sickest moments (any part of MASK OF THE PHANTASM or ROTJ, for example), he contemplates his sick and twisted actions before carrying them out.

It's easy to label his actions as insane - and he is definately crazy - but not SO crazy that he can't be held accountable for his actions. Stuff in JOKER'S FAVOR and THE LAUGHING FISH don't appear to be reasonable at first, but even then, as time goes on, we just come to learn that the Joker just likes to inflict pain by any means necessary.

I think "sick and twisted" would be a much better label.

Just as Batman says in THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS (I'm going to paraphrase), "There is nothing wrong with you that I can't fix with my own hands."

-Tim

[JL Man]

IMO, it depends on what continuity you go on. In the cartoon I think he isn't insane, just looking for fun. However, in the comics I do think he's insane, he does much worse things than in the show.

[Borg4of3]

Originally posted by M'ral
I agree that the Joker is evil, but IMHO that in itself proves that he is in fact sane. In order for an act to be truly evil, the person commiting the act must be aware that it is evil, and the definition of an insane person is someone who doesn't know right from wrong. The two are incompatible. You're either evil or insane, not both. The United States justice system is based in part on this principle. The Joker obviously knows that his actions are wrong, and he chooses to do them anyway and takes pleasure in the results. That is not insane. That is evil.

Sadly, the judges on the Gotham circuit seem to disagree, since they continually send Joker to Arkham instead of prison. :rolleyes:

Good point - tho you have to question how someone who knows the difference between good and evil can possibly do the things he's done. TimTwoFace is right, he is just plain sick and twisted.

Also, I agree with JL Man, He seems just plain crafty in the cartoon and then goes crazy once he has his audience, but if you read the comics, particularily NML, especially Greg Rucka's novel version, he is mad 'onstage' and not

[BLACKHEART]

Even Batman has said it that the Joker could be the only sane man in the city. His condition may have helped him reach a higher plane of awareness. I could dig out the issue.

[The Dark Knight]

A person is insane, and is not responsible for criminal conduct if, at the time of such conduct, as a result of a severe mental disease or defect, he was unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts. This is because willfull intent is an essential part of most offenses; and a person who is insane is not capable of forming such intent. Mental disease or defect does not otherwise constitute a defense; the person has the burden of proving the defense of insanity by clear and convincing evidence.
If you want to see someone who's really insane, just look at Maxie Zeus or The Mad Hatter (the mods or the Batman villains :wakko: ), but since the Joker is definitely able to "appreciate...his acts" he's not technically insane, but you can't deny the fact that he could benefit from a little therapy.

[redDragon]

"I'm insane! Not crazy! I'll take on Batman, but the IRS nooooooooo way!"(Joker's Millions) :D

At least I think that's how it goes

[zmanjz]

Yes, he is truly insane.

I would say that he has a mixture of Psycopathy and sociopathy.

His high inteligence allows him to understand the consepts of right and wrong, however his insanity is that these mean nothing to him.

Many Con-men are sociopaths, however their intelligence allows them to act as normal people. The joker's combination of these two problems combined with what I would believe to be a manic depressiveness, and a psycological trauma associated with "The Accident". have all combined to make him the most dangerous lunatic ever.

I think that Batman Beyond ROTJ was amazing because Terry's efforts to push the joker over the edge are nearly the exact tecniques my mother uses when interrogating Sex-Offenders (Generally the most intelligent of all criminals).

Just because a person can understand what he is doing is not a sign of sanity. It is just the Legal definition of insanity that may be at odds with the joker's situation.

I have no doubt that the joker is not in his right mind.

[The Game]

I think by the definition of his character he is insane. Some of the things he does, I simply don't think a sane man could do, that's all. I don't know how crazy he really is, because he shows some evidence of thought and planning into his crimes, but he is never remorseful for anything and...

I guess I'm just trying to say he's a few shrimps short of a barbie.

-The Game

[Lucky Bob]

Originally posted by M'ral
This is a question I've been pondering for a while now. I think (or at least, hope) we all agree that the things Joker does are unspeakably and undeniably evil and sickening. But my question is, are they truly sick? Is the Joker really insane, i.e does he know the difference between right and wrong? And if he is sane, how does he keep winding up in Arkham? Your thoughts?

We're all a little crazy!

[Ed Liu]

Howdy all,

Just my 2 cents on this topic...

I believe the definition of criminal insanity is not just restricted to the inability to appreciate the consequences of your actions (which the Joker clearly does). There are plenty of cases where one can appreciate one's actions completely and even explain them in great lucidity, and still be categorized as insane. The Unabomer would be one example of this, and I remember a guy who shot up a Long Island Rail Road train a while ago who served as his own defense counsel (often making a complete mockery of the criminal justice system in the process). In other fictional contexts, Hannibal Lecter is completely aware of what he is doing, but I don't think anybody would doubt that he's dangerously insane.

In Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum trade book, they talk about how the Joker's personality can swing from being little more than a harmless clown aiming for pie-in-the-face gags on one extreme, to to being a complete homicidal, psychopathic killer on the other (neatly explaining the camp-60's era, I thought). It was one of the few good things about the story, IMO. The reason I bring it up, though, is that the extreme personality swings could also be considered a sign of insanity.

-- Ed/Ace

[DR. BELCH]

They are often intelligent, yet are incapable of a real emotion like love or compassion. They relish their depravity and the suffering of others.

[CadaverousEyes]

In a real court of law, one can't plead insanity if their actions were premeditated. All of Joker's plans are well-thought out in advance. Then again, anyone who would sell their soul for just a box of cigars isn't exactly sane. The supersanity theory works though.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

I think Joker is a little bith of both.

[The Mad Hatter]

Here's an unhelpful tidbit for you all. There is, in fact, no psychological definition of "insane." The term is actually a strictly legal definition, though psychiatrists often make reccomendations to the courts as to whether a person should be labelled sane or insane. If we are to go by legal definitions, then yes, the Joker is insane. He never gets sent to regular prison, he always gets sent to Arkham for mental treatment. And since states generally have to deem a person mentally unfit before committing them to a psych ward, it would follow that Joker gets that label slapped on him every time Bats turns him over to the police.

[rhynokane]

Didn't any of you guys read Arkham Asylum by Grant Morrison? That book is amazing and near the end, batman says to Gordon (I think) that the joker is not insane. Well something like that, it has been a while since I've read it. He does say Joker's sane though.
Just read the book, it's one of the best Batman comics I've ever read.

[Barb Gordon]

Sounds like a good book. I would have to say that he's at least not entirely insane. Joker is quite an intelligent guy when you really think about, but he is also not entirely all together in his head. He knows the difference between right and wrong, at least I think so, but also has this incredible, sick, twisted sense of fun. He enjoys doing bad things and wreaking havoc and hurting people, disrupting the normal flow of life. Now Harley for instance, I consider completely insane, because it doesn't seem that she can really see the difference between right and wrong. But you get the feeling that the Joker does, and I mean, it seems that even he sees that Harl is off her rocker.

Barb^-^

[The Penguin]

I think "Harlequinade" (people who haven't seen it beware) really shows that The Joker is indeed insane. He doesn't care about anyone, not his love Harley, not even himself "That bomb's blowing up if I have to go with it!" He is so obsessed with killing Batman, Hill, and Gordon, etc. that he is willing to kill himself in order to do it. Now that folks is nuts.

[Nightwing]

originally posted by M'ral
I agree that the Joker is evil, but IMHO that in itself proves that he is in fact sane. In order for an act to be truly evil, the person commiting the act must be aware that it is evil, and the definition of an insane person is someone who doesn't know right from wrong.


That's the reason why I say Joker is insane, but that's because my definition of insane, since there really is none, is being mentally unstable, out of the norm, and potentially (if not ALREADY) dangerous. And Joker fits that bill. I think Joker does what he does because he is mentally unstable, and frankly is only in it for a laugh. HIS type of laugh.

[DisneyBoy]

I think the Joker completely understands. He plays mind games and is well aware of what is acceptable and what is not. He takes joy in doing what is wrong, and he'll blame it on "mental unstability", but both he and Batman are well aware that he's not living in a different world.