Fansub and Industry Panel @Otakon

[EroSennin]

A couple weeks ago at Otakon there was a panel between fansubbers and Industry professionals from Media Blaster and Funimation. Well ANN has put the video up for the full panel as well as an article summarizing it if you dont want to watch the full 80 mins but its a pretty good panel and worth a watch.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/convention/2008/fansubs-and-industry-panel

[BrendaBat]

It was amusing to watch grown men on the panel refer to themselves and each other with ridiculous internet pseudonyms like "YaoiBoy" and "Get Fresh". :p

I couldn't watch the whole video, but I read the summary. It's nice that the two groups could get together at a civil forum, and both groups made some good arguments. But the fansubbers lose some points for not having the cojones to drop the stupid internet handles and use their real names.


From the article
Here, the replies were more nuanced. YaoiBoy says he would "absolutely stop" fansubbing if requested, but would then demand that whichever company does the asking then give him a viable alternative to watch the anime in question. GetFresh said, flat-out, that his response would depend on whether the company that attempts to get him to stop fansubbing actually has the North American rights to the series. Dattebayo's Interactii would stop as well - but he is fully sure that if one group were to abandon a series, another, with fewer ethical concerns, would likely come right along to continue. Even more complicated is the possibility that a new fansubbing group that picks up a series after an established one has dropped it will do an inferior job of presenting it to fans.
..........

For Hissobaraiken, the answer also depends on which exactly company were to approach his group.
And this exchange made the fansubbers sound like weasels. It shows disrespect for both the American and Japanese companies when they say things like, "I'll take down the fansubs if asked. But not until the company doing the asking meets MY conditions! If they don't do what I think they should do with the anime, then I won't stop."


From the article
The final question to the panel asked the speakers to think about how they would like to see the North American anime industry change to best work towards a harmonious relationship with fansubbers and fans. The answers, from various of the fansubbers, were to continue developing and perfecting new distribution models for anime, embrace the Blu-Ray format more fully, and stop editing anime for American release. "I don't like Americanization on my DVD's. I can handle Japanese culture," one of them stated, to much applause from the audience.I'm all for American companies embracing Blu-Ray and new distribution models.
But fansubbers (and fansub consumers) really really REALLY need to stop using the old canard about "edited, American releases" to justify what they do. This isn't 1995. 99% of anime DVDs released here are released unedited, with the Japanese language track there for the purists who simply can't bear the thought of watching a cartoon in English!
For goodness sake, not every American anime company is freakin' 4Kids!!!
[/end freakin' rant] :p

[TheVileOne]

They probably used the fake handles for legal reasons.

[BrendaBat]

Originally posted by TheVileOne
They probably used the fake handles for legal reasons.

Oh, I know that. But it doesn't change the fact that it made them look silly. :p

[Weatherman]

I couldn't watch the whole video, but I read the summary. It's nice that the two groups could get together at a civil forum, and both groups made some good arguments. But the fansubbers lose some points for not having the cojones to drop the stupid internet handles and use their real names.

And this exchange made the fansubbers sound like weasels. It shows disrespect for both the American and Japanese companies when they say things like, "I'll take down the fansubs if asked. But not until the company doing the asking meets MY conditions! If they don't do what I think they should do with the anime, then I won't stop."

I don't remember anyone saying anything about edited versus unedited apart from they get really annoyed when companies hack stuff they don't need to touch. So long as a show is licensed the rule of thumb for any fan subber is to stop subbing it. That's what they all said they would do, especially once they get a C&D.

[Karl Olson]

Yeah, but in the old days, the licensing announcement was good enough - they did not need a legal threat to stop, they just respected the fact the show was licensed and that was that, and that was in a era where there were some subtitle issues, and when dubs stood a very solid shot at being unlistenable. You'd think the across the board increase in quality this industry has seen would have improved the likelyhood of a show getting dropped by subbers, not decreased it.

[Roman Legion]

Thanks to modern technology, there are more subbers now than back then, bringing with them more diverse motivations for subbing, so numerically speaking, of course there are going to be more subbers with distorted personal ethics.

Also consider that, subbed or not, the raws are still floating around out there. Although we're starting to see a crackdown on their distribution, so long as the untranslated sources are still available, chances are decent that someone on the internet will be desperate enough to continue subbing.

--Romey

[BrendaBat]

Originally posted by Weatherman
I don't remember anyone saying anything about edited versus unedited apart from they get really annoyed when companies hack stuff they don't need to touch.

If you skip the video to about the 59:00 mark, you'll see the fansubbers go on their "DON'T DEPRIVE ME OF THE GLORIOUS JAPANESE CULTURE!!!!!" rant (and claim that dub actors can't sing :shrug:). You'll also see the Funimation guy reply by pointing out that his company never censors the shows they licence. So that point was sorta addressed in the panel.


Originally posted by Karl Olson
Yeah, but in the old days, the licensing announcement was good enough - they did not need a legal threat to stop, they just respected the fact the show was licensed and that was that, and that was in a era where there were some subtitle issues, and when dubs stood a very solid shot at being unlistenable. You'd think the across the board increase in quality this industry has seen would have improved the likelyhood of a show getting dropped by subbers, not decreased it.
Well, like Romey said, there are far more fansubbers today than there were back in the VHS days. So the sheer numbers mean that there's bound to be a substantial number of jackasses in the mix who refused to stop even when the American (or Japanese) company send out C&D warnings.
I'm sure a few of those types existed back then, too. But fansubbing was such a pain in the ass in those days that I assume most people thought it was simply a waste of time to fansub a licensed title.

[Roman Legion]

Maybe I've said this before, but it's too bad there's not a legal outlet for fan translations... supply the anime, streaming or otherwise, support it with ads or whatever's necessary for the revenue stream, and permit folks to apply fan translations to the content. Give the impatient folk an outlet, get money to the creators faster, and keep a chunk of fansub community occupied.

--Romey

[BrendaBat]

Originally posted by Romey
Maybe I've said this before, but it's too bad there's not a legal outlet for fan translations... supply the anime, streaming or otherwise, support it with ads or whatever's necessary for the revenue stream, and permit folks to apply fan translations to the content. Give the impatient folk an outlet, get money to the creators faster, and keep a chunk of fansub community occupied.

--Romey

I'd like to see the Japanese companies do that too (though I'd prefer it if they used pro translators instead of fanboys).
One of the industry people in the panel said that Japanese contracts/rights and royalty issues can be pretty wacky. I suppose that's part of the reason why something like that hasn't happened yet even though there's an obvious demand for it.

[Roman Legion]

I'd like to see the Japanese companies do that too (though I'd prefer it if they used pro translators instead of fanboys).We already have limited streaming with professional translations, though. It'd be nice for that to be more widespread as well, but pro translations take time. Either you delay the availability of the translation, or you delay the Japanese air date. There are practical reasons for not being able to do this all the time, which you're aware of. My thoughts were about how you could more easily beat fansubs to the punch. The idea, of course, isn't to replace professional translations, but rather to buy them time.

--Romey

[BrendaBat]

Originally posted by Romey
We already have limited streaming with professional translations, though. It'd be nice for that to be more widespread as well, but pro translations take time. Either you delay the availability of the translation, or you delay the Japanese air date. There are practical reasons for not being able to do this all the time, which you're aware of. My thoughts were about how you could more easily beat fansubs to the punch. The idea, of course, isn't to replace professional translations, but rather to buy them time.
Thats a good point. But pro translations take time because they have standards and most of them have to check with the Japanese company before they put them out. The fansubbers are quick because they answer to no one but themselves. If they screw up, there are no consequences; but a professional could lose his job if he does sub par work. Because of this, fansubbers have a habit of turning out translations that are incomprehensible to the casual fan (i.e. lots of Japanese words left randomly untranslated and what-not).
My point is that the Japanese companies are better off getting a professional because at least that way they'll have someone who's used to answering to a boss and won't let his fanboy mentality get in the way of producing subtitles that people besides hardcore otaku can read and enjoy.
Hiring an in-house professional translator will also save the Japanese companies the bureaucratic nightmare that would likely go along with hiring a fansubber who lives outside Japan.

[Jacob T. Paschal]

I think reading that article made me throw up a little in my mouth, if not give me chest pains. The attitude that "Because I can, I should" is very prevalent in todays culture and primarily that can be blammed on parenting or lack thereof, I would think. Most fansubbers are at the most in the teenage to thirties range but even so they should know that once you put it up it'll never go away. In summary, they know they're stealing and even if they turn around and saying "Oh sure, we'll take them down" the file is still out and about on the internet meaning--specifically speaking--teenagers can use those instead of getting off their lazy asses and earning the money to buy what they might be interested in seeing. Lord people, if you don't like it there's a guaranteeded Half-Price or other threft shop around the flippin' corner, go give it to them and don't complain about only getting three dollars, you're dang lucky to be getting that much. Heck, try your luck on eBay, even.

Fansubbers have got to realize that once they open Pandora's box Hell has been unleashed and the devil will not stopped until we're all damned! Those that do not buy the official products cannot call themselves fans whatsoever and by having fansubs in existence people have far less incentive to buy said official products thus said product either becomes created increasingly cheaper or stops altogether.

The only way--as Heiskell suggests--is to hit up the Japanese companies for simultaneous releases which will at the very least:


Cut down on fansubbing.
Highlight the idiots who think anything from Japan is better then from the licencee and additionally believe the fansubs more accurate or 'faithful' because [in a stupid attempt to appear exotic] leave things untranslated.
Additionally, will allolw us to forget the rediculous subtitle fonts and animations and covering of 80% of the screen with their own credits as if they had any sort of claim to the work itself outside of capturing the video and audio feeds and throwing up on the internet to suck away the rights holders' profits.


It's a vicious cycle that can only be stopped at the source: by instilling in the young a since of [manly] honor. Excuse the overthetopness of the the preceding line, but it's pretty much the truth.

EDIT:


Thats a good point. But pro translations take time because they have standards and most of them have to check with the Japanese company before they put them out. The fansubbers are quick because they answer to no one but themselves. If they screw up, there are no consequences; but a professional could lose his job if he does sub par work. Because of this, fansubbers have a habit of turning out translations that are incomprehensible to the casual fan (i.e. lots of Japanese words left randomly untranslated and what-not).
My point is that the Japanese companies are better off getting a professional because at least that way they'll have someone who's used to answering to a boss and won't let his fanboy mentality get in the way of producing subtitles that people besides hardcore otaku can read and enjoy.
Hiring an in-house professional translator will also save the Japanese companies the bureaucratic nightmare that would likely go along with hiring a fansubber who lives outside Japan.

Actually, when FUNimation had TOEI give them already translated into Eng[r]ish scripts for Dragonball Z the supposed 'in-house' translated scripts were terrible--which explains the dubs own rewritings. Whether or not this is just a TOEI getting back at them for having to spend money of FUNi's free, initial, translated scripts or just a thing of the mid-nineties, I do not know.

[Roman Legion]

Thats a good point . . .

I think you miss the point, somewhat. No fansubbers would be hired by anybody. All I'm contemplating is permitting and enabling fan translations to be applied to a legal, quickly available source, possibly solving several legal and social issues at once. Personal opinions about the quality of fan translations have little to do with it.

--Romey

[Jacob T. Paschal]

I think you miss the point, somewhat. No fansubbers would be hired by anybody. All I'm contemplating is permitting and enabling fan translations to be applied to a legal, quickly available source, possibly solving several legal and social issues at once. Personal opinions about the quality of fan translations have little to do with it.

--Romey

But that's never going to happen because both their quality and the companies management are placed in question. Companies do not want their shows or themselves being represented in such a line because if they endorse a fansub that is either inaccurate or not to how it is they wish to represent themselves then it just complicates things.

[Roman Legion]

But that's never going to happen because both their quality and the companies management are placed in question. Companies do not want their shows or themselves being represented in such a line because if they endorse a fansub that is either inaccurate or not to how it is they wish to represent themselves then it just complicates things.You miss the point as well. Enabling isn't endorsing. If there's a problem with that, companies might as well attempt to scrub every un-endorsed derivative work of their material -- from fanart to fanfic, motivational posters to AMVs -- off the internet. It never works, it wouldn't accomplish anything positive if it did work, it's misguided, and it only encourages intentional mischief.

--Romey

[BrendaBat]

Originally posted by Jacob T. Paschal
But that's never going to happen because both their quality and the companies management are placed in question. Companies do not want their shows or themselves being represented in such a line because if they endorse a fansub that is either inaccurate or not to how it is they wish to represent themselves then it just complicates things.Thank you for making my point more eloquently than I could. :sweat:

Yeah, the Japanese companies wouldn't want to put their official seal of approval on shoddy translations or translations that don't portray the show in the right light. Thats why companies like Funimation and ADV (and even 4Kids!) have to get their sub and dub scripts approved by the Japanese companies before they can put them on the market. I doubt the Japanese companies would be eager to make exceptions for the fansubbers who have spent the past couple of years stealing their work.

Originally posted by Romey
You miss the point as well. Enabling isn't endorsing. If there's a problem with that, companies might as well attempt to scrub every un-endorsed derivative work of their material -- from fanart to fanfic, motivational posters to AMVs -- off the internet. It never works, it wouldn't accomplish anything positive if it did work, it's misguided, and it only encourages intentional mischief.But your suggestion of putting fansubs on official, ad supported sites would be endorsing them.

[Roman Legion]

Are you in such a hurry to disagree that you're assuming things I never stated?
Take a moment to think about what I've said so far.


But your suggestion of putting fansubs on official, ad supported sites would be endorsing them.Alright, point out where I suggested that. :p

--Romey

[rubberchicken]

Perhaps you should elaborate on this

legal, quickly available source
you mentioned.

[Roman Legion]

Perhaps you should elaborate on this...Could be anything. Streaming, downloads, HD content via game consoles... anything, so long as you don't have to wait on professional translation or even R1 licensing. The faster you can cut the fansubbers off, the better. The more available, the better. Just enable viewers to supply their own sub file. If some companies actually did want to host a fan translation after screening it (as some host fanart), whatever: that's above and beyond what I'm thinking of.

Render raw suppliers obsolete to the West, preoccupy the translators and timers, satiate the impatient viewers and the "fanboys" alike. Dismember it all starting with their motivations.

Naturally, they can do this, mismanage it, and still blame piracy when it fails... but hey, I'm not responsible for their mistakes. Sure, you'll never completely stomp out pirating tightwads either, but if you're really concerned about losing sales, better to divert the majority to legal means than to merely drive them further underground where they can never be controlled.

--Romey

[Weatherman]

Yeah, the Japanese companies wouldn't want to put their official seal of approval on shoddy translations or translations that don't portray the show in the right light. Thats why companies like Funimation and ADV (and even 4Kids!) have to get their sub and dub scripts approved by the Japanese companies before they can put them on the market.

Actually, a lot of them either don't care that much about the translation or, alternately, care too much and muck it up with what they think it should be. Don't underestimate the sheer arrogance of some of the companies in the biz. Some are great about working out a good translation, others insist that no can be right but them.

Of course, their show's usually bomb.

The Japanese Culture rant was kinda facious. No one on the panel was stupid. They all know the process of bringing things over quite well and they know that the companies there don't go around hacking stuff up for fun. Heck, that costs money.

[TheVileOne]

The Japanese producers still gave 4Kids approval and free reign to do it for One Piece. So I do blame them for that.

Also the English subtitles the Japanese will put on their anime releases are generally terrible. Doesn't necessarily help the case for direct import buys you know.

Just saying, if fans had access to that from the actual Japanese . . . need for fansubbing is eliminated.