Sex and kiddie cartoons

[Mavericker]

Isn't that kind of treading dangerous ground with you put sexy female characters in kid shows and animated cartoon movies?

You had Jessica Rabbit in Roger Rabbit which was supposed to be a family film.
Hello Nurse in Animaniacs.
Lola Bunny in Space Jam.

What kind of message is that sending to kids?

Are they subliminally trying to get youngsters to think about sex early?

[Brandon Pierce]

Cartoons aren't just for kids you know.

Don't forget, there was also Cleo from Heathcliff & the Catillac Cats.

[Mavericker]

Cartoons aren't just for kids you know.

Don't forget, there was also Cleo from Heathcliff & the Catillac Cats.

Yes, and Dixie and Roxy.

But what was the point of putting them in kids' shows if they are meant for kids?

[Cartman]

Wasn't Roger Rabbit geared more towards adults?

[AlgeaX]

Yes, and Dixie and Roxy.

But what was the point of putting them in kids' shows if they are meant for kids?

Because cartoons aren't made solely for kids to the exclusion of everyone else, if they were this site probably wouldn't even exist. Lots of cartoon writers try to make their shows accessible to adults even if they're main demographic is kids. Check out any Greg Weisman show like Gargoyles or Spectacular Spider-Man for what Greg calls "writing on multiple levels".

You may argue that these are action dramas and therefore held to a higher standard then your typical toon but comedies are no different, Tiny Toons, Animaniacs and Freakazoid all made constant jokes based on American politics, decades old movies and even world history.

[Mavericker]

Wasn't Roger Rabbit geared more towards adults?

Yes-It was released under Touchtone Pictures.

[Blackstar]

Seriously, Mavericker? You're going to try this again?

And anyway, furries are the only people who are sexually attracted to cartoon animals, so it's hardly a issue.

[James]

Seriously, Mavericker? You're going to try this again?

I don't think the mods would mind me hollering out here - if members have any concerns about threads, please use the report button, don't open up the thread to question publicly.

[Blackstar]

I don't think the mods would mind me hollering out here - if members have any concerns about threads, please use the report button, don't open up the thread to question publicly.

Gotcha. I understand. Apologies.

[Mavericker]

Seriously, Mavericker? You're going to try this again?

And anyway, furries are the only people who are sexually attracted to cartoon animals, so it's hardly a issue.

Try what again? Discussing morals in kiddie cartoons?

Stop trying to ruin this thread.

Getting back to topic parents should monitor what cartoons their kids watch.

Also, what used to be considered family entertainment has changed.

They are sticking sexual innuendo in G-rated movies.

[Blackstar]

The problem with censoring "questionable content" in cartoons is that anyone can be offended by anything, so it would be impossible to make a cartoon with absolutely no questionable content in it. I very much doubt that a 5-year-old kid is having sexual feelings for a cartoon cat. Some teens and adults, sure, but a preschooler or a kid in 1st-3rd grade? Again, that's doubtful.

Also, drawing a female cartoon character to look attractive is not synonymous with making them sexually explicit or suggestive. Any who has impure thoughts after looking at Cleo from Cadillac Cats probably just has a dirty mind to begin with.

Different people view things differently. What 1 viewer may view as being suggestive or sexual, someone else may look at the same thing and see nothing questionable or objectionable.

[Silverstar]

How is someone stating his opinion "spoiling the thread"?

[Mavericker]

How is someone stating his opinion "spoiling the thread"?

By insinuating I want to cause trouble when I am not.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Try want again? Discussing morals in kiddie cartoons?

Stop trying to ruin this thread.

Getting back to topic parents should monitor what cartoons their kids watch.

Also, what used to be considered family entertainment has changed.

They are sticking sexual innuendo in G-rated movies.

Things are what you make of them. Kids probably won't even notice Jessica Rabbit's breasts, but adults and teens are so horny they sexualize freakin' Gadget Hackwrench, a cartoon mouse. It doesn't really do the kids any harm, only the adults respond to it because it taps into their desires. The alternative is creating a sexless world, which would ring so untrue to the adults that they would not be interested in the shows at all and would also destroy one of the major topics for comedy.

And at any rate shielding kids from such things as sex too strictly can be a bad thing. I'm no scientist, but it would seem to me that too much sexual repression could lead to sexual maladjustment. You deprive the child of a context in which to understand natural sexual feelings so they are forced to create an artificial, maladjusted context.

Parents really should sit down and have that birds and the bees talk. I know guys that seem to have gotten their sexual education from porn, which is mostly a grotesque distortion of human sexuality. They end up with some tell-tale weird preferences that are starting to become norms.

Gee, for a guy that thinks pornography and masturbation is a sin, you sure talk about sex and cartoon porn a lot. Also, you do realize that kids read this forum, right? Maybe you don't need to make every other topic about sex.

[Ed Liu]

How is someone stating his opinion "spoiling the thread"?


By insinuating I want to cause trouble when I am not.

Ahem:


I don't think the mods would mind me hollering out here - if members have any concerns about threads, please use the report button, don't open up the thread to question publicly.

Everyone, this is not difficult to understand, but if it takes dishing out warnings over it to get the message through, we'll be happy to oblige.

Now knock it off.

-- Ed

[Silverstar]

Well, the others here have a point: First, that not all cartoons are strictly for kids, and that the little kids looking at characters like Jessica Rabbit and Hello Nurse aren't getting the same...well, impulses, we'll say, as the older guys watching them.

I'd also like to point out that just drawing an attractive female character doesn't automatically qualify as "questionable content". Everyone from age 6 to age 60 has seen a pretty girl and knows what a pretty girl is, so it's not going to poison or corrupt the world to depict an attractive female character in a cartoon. Keep in mind also that not everyone finds cartoon characters attractive, so to some such depictions are perfectly harmless. It all boils down to one's personal tastes and/or inclinations.

Finally I wouldn't exactly put Hello Nurse and Cleo the cat in the same breath as Jessica Rabbit. The Nurse and Cleo are more 'living room' attractive whereas Jessica Rabbit is more 'big screen' hot. It's like comparing Donna Reed and Shelley Fabres to Veronica Lake. So it's not really the same vibe, at least not to me.

[Mavericker]

Things are what you make of them. Kids probably won't even notice Jessica Rabbit's breasts, but adults and teens are so horny they sexualize freakin' Gadget Hackwrench, a cartoon mouse. It doesn't really do the kids any harm, only the adults respond to it because it taps into their desires. The alternative is creating a sexless world, which would ring so untrue to the adults that they would not be interested in the shows at all and would also destroy one of the major topics for comedy.

And at any rate shielding kids from such things as sex too strictly can be a bad thing. I'm no scientist, but it would seem to me that too much sexual repression could lead to sexual maladjustment. You deprive the child of a context in which to understand natural sexual feelings so they are forced to create an artificial, maladjusted context.

Parents really should sit down and have that birds and the bees talk. I know guys that seem to have gotten their sexual education from porn, which is mostly a grotesque distortion of human sexuality. They end up with some tell-tale weird preferences that are starting to become norms.

Gee, for a guy that thinks pornography and masturbation is a sin, you sure talk about sex and cartoon porn a lot. Also, you do realize that kids read this forum, right? Maybe you don't need to make every other topic about sex.

You need to stop trying to judge me.

Kids should learn about sex from their parents and not from public schools.

I was raised Christian-my parents objected to me taking sex ed so I sat outside the classroom.

A lot of older people watch kid shows and get excited watching them-that's why there's so much Teen Titan porn out there.

[Shawn Hopkins]

You need to stop trying to judge me.

Kids should learn about sex from their parents and not from public schools.

I was raised Christian-my parents objected to me taking sex ed so I sat outside the classroom.

A lot of older people watch kid shows and get excited watching them-that's why there's so much Teen Titan porn out there.

Well, that's what I said, basically. Parents should talk to their kids about sex and older people get excited watching cartoons. There's no disagreement there.

[Dudley]

Having beautiful women in cartoons is perfectly fine.
Not everyone finds cartoon characters attractive, and those people don't see it as a big deal.

[Ed Liu]

A lot of older people watch kid shows and get excited watching them-that's why there's so much Teen Titan porn out there.

ShawnHopkins' original point is that some of those older people would be making porn about anything, no matter how overtly sexy or plain it was. If people are making Teen Titans porn, I do not think that the right answer is to cover up Raven, Starfire, or Beast Boy.

Besides, the number of people who have watched cartoons with sexy characters drawn in them for decades without any serious deleterious side-effects. The number of people making porn about cartoon characters is vastly smaller than the number of people watching them, but you seem to be viewing the extreme minority as the norm.

I also can't help but notice that you're zeroing in on the women exclusively, when characters like Tarzan or He-Man are running around in even less clothing. It cuts both ways.

To answer the original question, no, I don't think that putting sexy characters in cartoons is some subliminal attempt to get kids to think about sex early.

-- Ed

[Mavericker]

ShawnHopkins' original point is that some of those older people would be making porn about anything, no matter how overtly sexy or plain it was. If people are making Teen Titans porn, I do not think that the right answer is to cover up Raven, Starfire, or Beast Boy.

Besides, the number of people who have watched cartoons with sexy characters drawn in them for decades without any serious deleterious side-effects. The number of people making porn about cartoon characters is vastly smaller than the number of people watching them, but you seem to be viewing the extreme minority as the norm.

I also can't help but notice that you're zeroing in on the women exclusively, when characters like Tarzan or He-Man are running around in even less clothing. It cuts both ways.

To answer the original question, no, I don't think that putting sexy characters in cartoons is some subliminal attempt to get kids to think about sex early.

-- Ed

A lot of parents object to how Raven and Starfire dress.

They showed Lola Bunny flaunting her body in Space Jam-that was intentional.

In Toy Story 2 they made jokes about Mr. Potato Head cheating on his wife with Barbie dolls.

[Blackstar]

That may be true, but covering them up or simply getting rid of them won't accomplish diddlysquat. Like I said earlier, it's impossible to prevent people from viewing things sexually. It's going to happen, regardless whether said cartoons are censored or not. To reiterate: anyone can be offended by anything. As long as there are fans, there will be fanservice. You can't stop people from drawing "sexy" pictures of cartoon characters any more than you can stop the rain.

If something offends you, don't look at it. Problem solved.

[Silverstar]

A lot of parents object to how Raven and Starfire dress.

Then those people don't need to be watching the show, and they have the option to simply turn it off when it comes on. The majority of kids don't care how those characters dress, and kids are the ones whom Teen Titans was aimed at, not uptight parents. Similarly, there are also a lot of parents who don't find Starfire and Raven's wardrobes the least bit offensive. Again, different strokes for different folks.

[sdp]

I was raised Christian-my parents objected to me taking sex ed so I sat outside the classroom.

Maybe thats the problem? I'm not trying to be mean but you seem to be very obsessed over something that should be completely normal.

Oh yeah and Rule#34 of the internet is "if it exists theres porn of it". You will find porn of EVERY cartoon ever made on the internet.

Inuendo flies through a kid, I know since never did I notice it until a few years ago as what they look as a kid you don't even notice like mentioned on the other thread, even as an adult its just a cartoon. Even as a kid watching anime with fanservice I didn't notice until I was in later grades and by 4th-6th grade kids already know and talk about it in school and not because of cartoons believe me. I hate it when people grow up and forget they learned about sex early in their childhood and act like its a bad thing that shouldn't be learned...

[sdp]

A lot of parents object to how Raven and Starfire dress.

They showed Lola Bunny flaunting her body in Space Jam-that was intentional.

In Toy Story 2 they made jokes about Mr. Potato Head cheating on his wife with Barbie dolls.

They are pretty basic costumes, they aren't exactly revealing. Do your kids have to go blindfolded when they go outside? Are they not allowed to watch the Olympics? Since you'll see more revealing outfits there that are not even supposed to be sexy its just what you use in the sport. Also Lue is correct in that you seem to have double standards as a more revealing man with muscles all over not also "inappropriate" by your crazy standards?

I'm 22, I saw Space Jam as a kid never did I think of anything of Lola Bunnie except that she was supposed to be the "hot" girl and Bugs love interest, the way she is drawn is introduced just sets that up I never saw anything sexual about it.

Toystory is just a fun gag and everyone can understand the joke, theres nothing sexual about it.

Again you are seeing way too much into it maybe because you were deprived and think anything to do with it is wrong. Trust me they are just cartoons.

[Dr.Pepper]

I really doubt that little boys are going to care about Jessica Rabbit, Hello Nurse or any of those over people until there like 13. So they are okay for "kiddie" cartoons

[peterg14]

A lot of parents object to how Raven and Starfire dress.

They showed Lola Bunny flaunting her body in Space Jam-that was intentional.

In Toy Story 2 they made jokes about Mr. Potato Head cheating on his wife with Barbie dolls.

Which parents? The kids obviously didn't notice or care that much. Most of those things fly over kids heads and are just little jokes for adults to catch. I didn't even notice that about Mr. Potato Head until you pointed it out, and since I haven't seen the movie since I was 12, that proves my point.

[Gokou Ruri]

Check out any Greg Weisman show like Gargoyles or Spectacular Spider-Man for what Greg calls "writing on multiple levels" Especially W.I.T.C.H., which has plenty of attractive girls and sexual references in it.

[AlgeaX]

As I said before in the "stacked females" thread, kids aren't really effected by sexual innuendo as long as it isn't too explicit. Below a certain age most kids are completely indifferent to all things sexual. I watched Animaniacs as a kid and I never had any strong reaction to Hello Nurse, I understood that she was supposed to be attractive in the same abstract way that I understood pandas like bamboo but I personally was never in anyway aroused or exited by her. I was much more interested in the Pinky & The Brain shorts to be honest.

As for Teen Titans, Raven and Starfire's costumes were no more reveling or suggestive then what you'd see at any high school gymnastics competition. Plus sexiness is not directly proportional to how much skin one presents to the world, it is just as much if not more so a matter of attitude and presentation. In all five seasons of Teen Titans I never saw anything that lead my to believe that the creators intended to present them in a sexual light.

And Maverick, it's a bit disingenuous of you to start half dozen threads about "animated sirens" in the space of a week and then turn around a condemn cartoons that dare to feature attractive women.

[SirLemming]

Who Framed Roger Rabbit is not for kids. It's not full-on "adult" animation, but it's a definite PG, intended for all film-viewing audiences with parental guidance expected.

The other characters you mentioned don't seem overtly sexual to me, just "attractive". (Lola Bunny being attractive to Bugs Bunny, of course.) There's nothing subliminal about the concept of attractive women.

What can be a problem is when anime series are imported to America, as some anime series we perceive as being "for kids" are not necessarily considered so in Japan. And of course, there are cultural differences. But this seems to be less of an issue now, with shows like Naruto being quite clearly aimed at teenagers instead of being aimed at kids with lots of edits that leave a few questionable aspects intact. (For a counter-example, Rurouni Kenshin aired as a TV-Y7 show with edits, but there were still some things, such as certain acts of violence and Shishio's busty assistant, that seemed a little inappropriate for kids. See also Tenchi.) And then of course there's Adult Swim.

[Mavericker]

Then those people don't need to be watching the show, and they have the option to simply turn it off when it comes on. The majority of kids don't care how those characters dress, and kids are the ones whom Teen Titans was aimed at, not uptight parents. Similarly, there are also a lot of parents who don't find Starfire and Raven's wardrobes the least bit offensive. Again, different strokes for different folks.

But there are people who complain that they are dressed a bit too racy for a kids show-I've seen them discuss it on other forums.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Well, you know what they always say about people who complain about stuff:

"Screw 'em!"

[Patchwork]

But there are people who complain that they are dressed a bit too racy for a kids show-I've seen them discuss it on other forums.

Then those people should find different shows for themselves and their children to watch.
Those people's opinions don't speak for everyone, and while they're free to think what they want, not everyone feels the same.

[GregX]

But there are people who complain that they are dressed a bit too racy for a kids show-I've seen them discuss it on other forums.

There's a word for those people:

Idiots.

[Mavericker]

There's a word for those people:

Idiots.

Starfire is dressed like an alien go-go dancer and Raven is dressed like a Goth lolita. :mad:

[bigdeath]

Starfire is dressed like an alien go-go dancer and Raven is dressed like a Goth lolita. :mad:

I thought that was a good thing.

[Mavericker]

I thought that was a good thing.

No-and that's why there's so much TT hentai/porn.

People will lust after the girls in Pokemon, or Sailor Moon, or other female characters in kid shows.

[Nel]

No-and that's why there's so much TT hentai/porn.

People will lust after the girls in Pokemon, or Sailor Moon, or other female characters in kid shows.

There'd still be porn of it anyway.:sweat: Sorry to say.

[Mavericker]

There'd still be porn of it anyway.:sweat: Sorry to say.

What about the Princess in Atlantis? Was making her sexy necessary?

[GregX]

Starfire is dressed like an alien go-go dancer and Raven is dressed like a Goth lolita. :mad:

Then don't watch it.

As George Carlin once said about a minister who made a big commotion over hearing something on the radio that he didn't like:


"Well Reverend, Did anyone ever tell you that there are two KNOBS on the
radio? Although I'm sure the reverend isn't that familiar with anything
that has two KNOBS on it. One, turns the radio off, and the other . . .
CHANGES THE STATION!!!!! Imagine that, reverend, you can actually change the station. It's called freedom of choice and it's one of the liberties this country was founded upon. Maybe you could look it up sometime if there are any libraries left after you've finished Burning All the Books!"

[Mavericker]

Then don't watch it.

As George Carlin once said about a minister who made a big commotion over hearing something on the radio that he didn't like:


"Well Reverend, Did anyone ever tell you that there are two KNOBS on the
radio? Although I'm sure the reverend isn't that familiar with anything
that has two KNOBS on it. One, turns the radio off, and the other . . .
CHANGES THE STATION!!!!! Imagine that, reverend, you can actually change the station. It's called freedom of choice and it's one of the liberties this country was founded upon. Maybe you could look it up sometime if there are any libraries left after you've finished Burning All the Books!"


Firstly they are KIDS-that can be sending kids the wrong message.

They should have given Raven a full-body suit. Not some form-fitting thing that makes her look naughty.

Starfire's dress is too short.

[GregX]

Firstly they are KIDS-that can be sending kids the wrong message.

They should have given Raven a full-body suit. Not some form-fitting thing that makes her look naughty.

Starfire's dress is too short.

Well guess what, my best friend, who is a mother of four, and a Christian, btw, sees nothing wrong with the way those characters dress.

Get over it.

[Patchwork]

Starfire is dressed like an alien go-go dancer and Raven is dressed like a Goth lolita. :mad:

...Um. No. No, they're not.
They're dressed no differently than any other female supereros. They're shpwing no more skin than Wonder Woman does.

Also, Raven's outfit isn't anywhere NEAR Gothic Lolita. Gothic Lolitas have frilly Victorian Alice-In-Wonderland-style dresses, with little skulls and such.
I'm not really seeing the Starfire/Go-Go dancer connection, either.

Really, there's nothing I can see that's objectionable at all about TT in a sexual context... except maybe Slade being a little too obsessed with Robin, but that's more an likely not true at all, and just my overanylizing brain working overtime.
In other words, that's just personal opinion.
That's the thing about opinions about what's "too sexy" and what isn't. It's all very subjective. Which is what makes them opinions.



I also can't help but notice that you're zeroing in on the women exclusively, when characters like Tarzan or He-Man are running around in even less clothing. It cuts both ways.
I've got to second this. And really, it's not just in Mavericker's argument, but overall.
Why doesn't anyone call out the apparent objectification and over-sexualization men in cartoons, but it's any time a girl wears a skirt above the knee, she's suddenly calling out to the pedos of the world? It's not like only men have sex drives. If little boys can apparently get the hots for Starfire and her "short" skirt, then why can't little girls get the hots for Samurai Jack fighting in his underpants? In half the episodes?

[Shawn Hopkins]

Starfire is dressed like an alien go-go dancer and Raven is dressed like a Goth lolita. :mad:

That's why I watch the show. Well, no, not really. It's actually quite well written and plotted out, exceeding the comics on some levels.

Hey, if you think the cartoon versions are overly sexualized, you should see their comics counterparts, at least Starfire. Cartoon Starfire looks like a nun compared to comic book Starfire.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/479339530_d82d6a74ce.jpg

Raven's not so bad. A little more boobalicious, maybe, but at least she's wearing a dress.

http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/bigimages/raven-classic.jpg

[AlgeaX]

No-and that's why there's so much TT hentai/porn.

People will lust after the girls in Pokemon, or Sailor Moon, or other female characters in kid shows.

You can't control what a few maladjusted weirdo's find arousing. All the female characters you mentioned could dress like Inuit and some freak would still be lusting after them, hence the existence of Rule 34. Short of mind control, there's nothing anyone can do about.

[GregX]

You can't control what a few maladjusted weirdo's find arousing. All the female characters you mentioned could dress like Inuit and some freak would still be lusting after them, hence the existence of Rule 34. Short of mind control, there's nothing anyone can do about.

We should dress the women like this:

http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/saudi-women-outraged.jpg

[AlgeaX]

We should dress the women like this:

http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/saudi-women-outraged.jpg

Thanks for that GregX. In a weird way you actually prove my point, since I know for a fact that many men actually find burkas arousing.

[Mavericker]

Well guess what, my best friend, who is a mother of four, and a Christian, btw, sees nothing wrong with the way those characters dress.

Get over it.

And Raven is a half-demon who uses witchcraft to fight evil. If she's a Christian she and her family SHOULDN'T be watching it.

[SirLemming]

And Raven is a half-demon who uses witchcraft to fight evil. If she's a Christian she and her family SHOULDN'T be watching it.
With all due respect: that's up to her, not you.

[The Huntsman]

Regardless, I believe that the general consensus is that having attractive cartoon characters isn’t going to corrupt the minds of our nation’s youth. Most children wouldn’t even notice such things, and if they did, then they’re probably old enough to early about the birds and the bees anyway. As for adults, who cares? If they draw hentai, it doesn’t matter. If parents do their jobs, then children would never see such things.

[Mavericker]

With all due respect: that's up to her, not you.

Blame the show's artists and creators.:mad:

[peterg14]

And Raven is a half-demon who uses witchcraft to fight evil. If she's a Christian she and her family SHOULDN'T be watching it.

The show was on for 5 years, and no one gave a crap. I don't see why it's such a big deal. If you have such strong opinions about this, complain to the FCC, because they must not have noticed or no one cared for all those years.

[DarthGonzo]

Regardless, I believe that the general consensus is that having attractive cartoon characters isn’t going to corrupt the minds of our nation’s youth. Most children wouldn’t even notice such things, and if they did, then they’re probably old enough to early about the birds and the bees anyway. As for adults, who cares? If they draw hentai, it doesn’t matter. If parents do their jobs, then children would never see such things.

Red Hot Riding Hood was really something else in those 1940s Tex Avery cartoons, and the kids watching those turned out all right, didn't they?

I grew up on Jessica Rabbit and Hello Nurse and I turned out all right.

The only people who are going to be messed up by watching sexy girls in children's cartoons are those who have issues to begin with.

[Patchwork]

Blame the show's artists and creators.:mad:

...we should blame the wirters and creators that she... approves of the show?

[GregX]

We've got a religious extremist here.

[The Huntsman]

Blame the show's artists and creators.:mad:
Blame them for what, exactly? Are there not real people in the real world who are more attractive than others? Are there not real people in the real world who are well endowed? Why protest something in an animated program that your children would likely see every single day walking down the street? It’s not like the characters are nude.

[GregX]

And Raven is a half-demon who uses witchcraft to fight evil. If she's a Christian she and her family SHOULDN'T be watching it.

She is a much better Christian than you are. Why, because she does not judge or condemn others.

[J'onn J'onzz]

No-and that's why there's so much TT hentai/porn.

People will lust after the girls in Pokemon, or Sailor Moon, or other female characters in kid shows.
How do you know about all this porn? :confused: I thought you said you didn't look at porn.

[GregX]

How do you know about all this porn? :confused: I thought you said you didn't look at porn.

Oh, I am sure he does look for it.

[peterg14]

Blame the show's artists and creators.:mad:

Is your good idea of a cartoon Davey and Goliath? Because you seem to think that all cartoons that draw and showcase women as...women, should be banned and will sex all the kids up into an orgy.

[J'onn J'onzz]

We should dress the women like this:

http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/saudi-women-outraged.jpg
I bet he actually does advocate burkas, despite the fact that most people who use them are non-Christians.

And Raven is a half-demon who uses witchcraft to fight evil. If she's a Christian she and her family SHOULDN'T be watching it.
Why are you trying to force your views on everyone? Not EVERY Christian is pro-censorship.

We've got a religious extremist here.
QFT.

[Wonderwall]

This thread isn't going to end well is it?;)

[Ed Liu]

This thread isn't going to end well is it?;)

No. No it isn't.

And apparently we do have to hand out infractions, warnings, and temp bans for people to learn how to discuss things with respect for others or learn to use the "ignore" feature of the forum. Well, so be it.

-- Ed