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GWOtaku
07-26-2008, 01:29 PM
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6272/ewlogotc4.jpg
History is much like an Endless Waltz. The three beats of war, peace, and revolution continue on forever. -Mariemaia


Most likely, very few will be surprised to see me say that I'm still a fan of Gundam Wing. Though it borrowed a great deal from its predecessors in the Gundam franchise, it still has elements that make it distinct. There was no clueless overwhelmed boy thrust into a war story. Instead we got the story of five youths that were sent to Earth to exact revenge and win freedom for their homes, only to set in course a series of events that would change the course of history in ways they could have never imagined. The constant realignment of military and political power crafted a dynamic narrative that left very few members of the series' considerable cast unchanged or at least unaffected. It’s not for nothing that the narrator at times called this period a "chaotic era."

And yet, in my view, the series was very fortunate to enjoy enough success for a sequel to be created. Of course I'm talking about Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz, which was released in Japan in 1998 and marks its 10th anniversary this year. August 1st, in fact, is the 10th birthday of the movie edition.

Endless Waltz’s existence is very important because it is more than just one last hurrah for the Gundam boys. It completes the narrative, and most critically it both addresses and completes the ideology of the series. In my opinion, Endless Waltz is great because it completely succeeds as a sequel: you can’t imagine the story of the original being complete without it.

What did Endless Waltz do right? Read on.

Presentation

As even a casual fan knows, Endless Waltz offers new and highly stylized designs for the Gundams from Hajime Katoki. The most iconic change, of course, are the mechanical “angel wings” on the Wing Zero, but every Gundam looks dramatically different from before. The reaction to this change has always been mixed. Some like it, some approve of some changes and dislike others, and some hate the way the Gundams were remade to be “cool” and less like the machines of war that they are.

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I have the most sympathy for the latter point of view, but I find the changes palatable by looking at them in a different way. While they are machines of war, the Gundams were often talked about as symbols of rebellion, a rallying point for others who fought back against tyranny. That said, the Gundams were also often treated as partners by the Wing boys themselves. I like to think that Endless Waltz simply gives form to the concept of the Gundams being avatars for the Gundam pilots, after a fashion. It fits from a stylistic perspective—Sandrock’s cloak is fitting for a Warrior of the desert. Heavyarms’ half mask reflects the split between Trowa’s repressed emotions and his awakening as a person. Altron’s twin-headed dragon is the literal symbol of Wufei’s clan, most of which he has now lost.

Beyond that, if we want to get imaginative, the new designs are symbolic for the independence of the Wing boys. We learn through Endless Waltz that before the start of the TV series the Gundams weren’t just machines of war, but intended to be tools of massacre in Operation Meteor. Instead each Gundam pilot went rogue with a different machine, acting on their own. Beyond appearance, in Endless Waltz the Gundams are literally extensions of the personalities and will of the Gundam pilots.

In any case, whatever one thinks of the new designs, it can’t be denied that Endless Waltz’s animation stands the test of time. Movement is very fluid, detail is paid attention to, everyone and everything is looking their best. Though mecha warfare far from dominates Endless Waltz, what action there is looks fantastic.

Character Closure

For a 90 minute adventure, Endless Waltz surprisingly manages to involve most named characters still living from the TV series. Supporting friends or love interests, such as Hilde Schbeiker and Catherine Bloom, get a sliver of screen time. The weakest link is probably newcomer Mariemaia, who was a puppet for almost the whole movie and has more than a few similarities to a different character in another timeline. Lady Une, thankfully, is portrayed as a strong person, no longer plagued by her split personality or hung up over Treize Khushrenada. Even Dorothy, who mostly acted as an antagonist in the series, makes an appearance to incite the people out of passivity when it counts. Noin and Sally continue their partnership, working for a better world.

However, Endless Waltz really belongs to three people: Heero, Wufei, and Relena. The other Gundam pilots are a presence, but for the most part they are acting as themselves and their actions are no surprise at all to fans. On the other hand Wufei’s defection to Mariemaia’s forces is a great surprise at first, and his duel with Heero is possibly the climax of the movie in every way.

Heero and Wufei were always the truest soldiers among the Gundam boys, and yet they have opposite reactions to the new era. Contrary to Wufei’s claim, they are definitely not the same. Wufei always acted as a crusader for justice, finding meaning in his quest to destroy evil. The peaceful era has taken that away. On top of that, to Wufei his duel with Treize reached an unacceptable conclusion. Treize essentially allowed his own death, conceding defeat and paving the way toward a better era that would be created without him. Wufei didn’t win through superior strength, causing him to doubt his own justice. Perhaps in the end he saw Treize as a better man than himself, and his inability to accept the era is basically his inability to accept Treize’s willing sacrifice for that era.

Given all of that, it’s perhaps natural that Wufei feels despair and frustration at the idea of soldiers not being needed and, in his view, abandoned by the times. Heero, on the other hand, is tired of it all. All his life he was taught only about fighting and following orders, and he was as active as anyone in the year of constant warfare. We also see that he’s tired of killing the emotion he feels over the destruction he’s caused, as we see with the flashback about the accident that killed that little girl and her dog. Heero clearly sees the tragedy of war for what it is, whereas Wufei is blinded by the meaning he found in it until his eyes are opened. The popular revolution against the Mariemaia Army at the end is the final push he needs, making him realize that sometimes “battles like these are not decided by the soldiers.”

And then, we have Relena. Her development is completely ideological, and is best discussed later.

The End of History? Guess Again

For many, Gundam Wing has a reputation of reckless idealism in large part thanks to the ending. How likely is it that Earth and the space colonies shake hands, decide to join together, and coexist in harmony with no problems? The pacifist ideal, once merely a value held onto by a few idealists in space colonies, was treated as a principle whose time had simply come after an era of perpetual turmoil.

While ideologies often matter more to Wing than real world political realities and the series demands some acceptance of idealism in order to be enjoyed, the ending is still not easy to accept at face value. It seems too easy a solution to the years of problems between Earth and outer space before After Colony 195, and it ignores human nature—problems are going to come up. For that matter, it contradicts Heero Yuy’s own observation that human nature is simply expanding to outer space.
Perhaps there was an age where people dreamed of the possibilities in the outer space, where they could start from scratch. However, it's unthinkable that the colonies or that humankind will ever forget the Earth.

What did technological development in the colonies bring to the Earth? The kind of technology the Earth wants most: military power. Destruction is a human nature that can never be gotten rid of; and now the colonies are developing a militaristic disposition. The colonies cannot forget the Earth.

The Earth has great beauty. The animals known as humans have acquired such strength that they even think about controlling this planet for themselves. From the point of view of a planet’s life the life of a living thing lasts no more than an instant. But in the end, it is only themselves that humans can think of. Nothing changes. The time spent by humans in outer space has been a complete waste. The ideal is just a dream.

-Heero Yuy, Gundam Wing Episode 18
Fortunately, Endless Waltz returns to reality right from the start: “After Colony 196. Battle weapons no longer exist in the Earth sphere. However, as long as mankind exists, there will always be battles.” It would be wrong to take Heero’s monologue at face value—it was said in light of the colonies militarizing with the help of OZ. Obviously things were looking hopeful by the time of Endless Waltz, but the central point is made. However far we go, people are people and we’ll have flaws and problems to deal with.

So what can be made of the idea that mobile suits are never seen again, as declared by the ending to Endless Waltz? Is this a return to the idea that everyone lives as a pacifist forever? No. I interpret the ending as a sign that humanity is returning to a more reasonable time, chastened by its recent experiences. It is a sign that while there may be strife and war in the future, humanity won’t allow itself to be destroyed by it. Long ago in the series, Treize Khushrenada once said that “I believe what mankind needs is not absolute victory, but a certain demeanor in fighting. An attitude toward fighting.” Later, toward the end of the series, he decries an era in history where wars were won and lost with the press of a button. “When wars are dehumanized, both victory and defeat become miserable, and God no longer lends a helping hand.” Thanks to Wing’s events, warfare actually scales back from battleships and automated soldiers (mobile dolls) to a time where even humanized machines become taboo and outdated. If humanity fights again it will be directly, on a more limited scale, and with more temperance and, with any luck, honor in mind.

Perhaps, in the end, Treize was the real winner of the show.

Power to the People

The simple truth of it is that pacifist ideals get pushed aside in favor of the central message of Endless Waltz. Far from peace at any cost, Relena is forced to realize that if people want change for the better then they have to stand up for themselves and insist on that. She finally encounters a situation that she can’t talk her way out of. Just in case it wasn’t obvious enough for everybody, she comes out and says that “I’ve been running from the truth.”

I find this very satisfying. Not only does Relena finally take action over talk, but Endless Waltz makes a good message against apathy and for activism. In Wing, change was always forced on the people by an elite few. OZ, Romefeller, White Fang. They all changed the world dramatically while being heavily outnumbered by people who wanted differently. Yet with each shift of power, people either accepted the change or did nothing about it. It was left to a few determined rebels and individuals, along with the Gundam pilots, to bring things to an end. In contrast, by Endless Waltz the Earth Sphere has a democratically elected President—no more Romefeller aristocrats running the show, apparently. Also, the Gundams don’t solve the problem alone. Everything the Gundams did would have been meaningless without the people rejecting Mariemaia’s coup. The better era was won with the actions of a few, but the actions of the many kept it.

Though there isn't much focus given to it, Endless Waltz also downplays the supremacy of the Zero system. Heero remarks to Wufei that Zero has nothing to tell him about how long his fighting must go on. It’s a good reminder that the Zero system was simply a machine meant to enable absolute victory in battle. It is in every way a relic of the old age. It can predict probability, but it can’t offer the user truth or contentment.

The message is clear. Ultimately, we all have responsibility for ourselves. Don't leave it in the hands of elites. To paraphrase a line from the very end of Babylon 5, you either create the future or other people will create it for you.

Endless Waltz is to Gundam Wing what Char’s Counterattack was to classic Gundam. It truly completes the story, rendering itself the perfect complement to the TV series.

HellCat
07-26-2008, 01:52 PM
I think the best thing Endless Waltz did was acknowledge the mistakes of the TV series conclusion. As you say, the show basically ends on an ideal rather than a reality. It feels unfulfilling after the rest of the show has been discussing the complex reasons that people fight. Thus,it's very rewarding where Relena openly denounces her earlier beliefs and accepts something closer to reality. This is an issue which I think Gundam has botched for over a decade. Classically, Gundam characters have their hands tied and use what little power they can to change things or merely survive. However, series like Wing and SEED instead mix in too much ideal. Teenagers can suddenly topple regimes, armed with a single MS and a noble heart. That's very different from what Tomino did. Look at CCA- in the closing moments, as Char and Amuro's conflict ends we see the beggining of Hathaway's. Tomino always seemed to be saying that humanity is locked in a cycle and that in terms of the fictional reality of Gundam, we the audience are seeing but portions of this cycle. In contrast, Wing focuses on what is supposed to be the defining moment of change for humanity. Suddenly ideals become reality and we're supposed to believe that humanity came togethor in essentially ever lasting piece. Really, it's insulting. The show resorts to constant speeches to make itself look deep and then simplifies the central issue. War wouldn't end simply because the current generation chose so, even if we all agreed to do it. There are so many catalysts for war. What about a later generation who wasn't part of the generation that ushered in such a utopia? What reason would they have to enforce it? Wars start for reasons that can't simply be white washed by saying humans love to fight. A military option is taken by those who feel it is the most suited way to achieve their goals.

kaine23
07-26-2008, 02:02 PM
Count me as the 2nd Wing fan around here then. Beautifully put essay on EW, man. *slow claps*

Mr. Anime
07-26-2008, 02:26 PM
As a fellow fan of Gundam Wing, I applaud you sir. You manage to convey in your essay eveything that I felt great about EW and what made it to a satisfying conclusion to both Wing in general and the series philosophies.

Juu-kuchi
07-26-2008, 02:27 PM
While I can relate to the ill feelings one may get from such a cut and dry ending after much political turmoil and complexities, I enjoyed Endless Waltz. Like you said, it serves as a grand completion to the story. Yes it may have failed in some sense regarding the ideals conversed, but as a closure to both characters and story it comes off rather well. We managed to see the pasts of all the Gundam boys which were noticeably absent in the series (and with boys like them, visual pasts are needed), the ambiguity of some sort in the TV ending was met with something much more fuller than such, and characters have managed to remain as they are or developed in a more positive way. In short though they stayed true to form.

A small qualm I had was how relatively tame the Brussels battle was. Yes I'm well aware that they were restraining themselves so as not to kill the pilots of the Serpents (correct?), but compared to the rather intense initial battles of Gundam Wing in the first episodes and the advent of mobile dolls it comes off as rather held back. The only one that didn't seem to have qualms with killing was Heero given how many Serpents were destroyed as he kept blasting into the bunker.

Also, let's not neglect to mention the awesomeness of White Reflection and Last Impression.

Zeonic Freak
07-26-2008, 02:28 PM
Well, Wing ends on a much more idealistic level, where instead of one army fighting another for control, its more "Is fighting really worth anything to me?"

This is really the first time ive read something about Endless Waltz that made me think other than "ah, its an ok movie." There's alot of good thought into this.

I may not be the best Wing fan, but my friend pointed out that Wing offers alot to the series other than "One army fighting another army, blah." Wing is political, idealistic, and showing things to be put in reality. I do like wing for the fact of the factions in the series, and after watching the first 15 episodes a second time, it makes more since, and is very intellectual (minus the english dubbing, well, i guess its not that bad).

As what Wing showed, once a conflict ended, another begins. Its a never ending cycle that is just part of human nature.

I need to get around to watching Wing again, i know i will get more outta it...

bigdeath
07-26-2008, 03:13 PM
Well, everyone should know I'm a gundam wing fan.

This needed more mention of Deathscythe H. Shame on you. Of course its symbols was obvious. Duo thought of himself as a kind of grim reaper and his mecha's apearence was meant to make his opponents think so as well.


Perhaps, in the end, Treize was the real winner of the show.

Treize was (in his own mind at least) a chivalrous knight in a chaotic era till his end. He wanted to be a symbol of his on sense of honor , leading by example.

As for wings ending. I think is was more that the gundams were never scene again. Mobile suits and war continue but the gundam pilots finnaly felt there was no need for them personally to fight anymore. After all, what the gundam pilots were fighting for was a big question in the series.


After WW1 and WW2 people declared war was over for all time. That didn't last long and the ending in wing should be viewed as the same. Its the voice of hope that seems to come up after a chaotic period moves into a more peaceful period. But in truth its just another step in the endless waltz that is history. Hence the name of the movie.

HellCat
07-26-2008, 04:18 PM
The problem for Wing, as with most Gundam and indeed fiction overall is exactly that- it's a product. Ultimately it exists to sell merchandise and it'll take short cuts, simplify and have hypocrisy to sell that merchandise. The Mobile Dolls for instance brought up an interesting commentary on the relation of humanity to war escalation, but you can clearly see it was added to sidestep the moral issue of the 5 leads. After a certain point, blubbering in the cockpit that you didn't want to kill stops working on the audience and so the Mobile Dolls allow the Gundams to have their big flashy rampages whilst technically killing no one.

The commercial aspect just creates problems. You can see that even in recent shows like Code Geass. Shows like Wing can create an interesting base, but the potential will go unfulfilled so long as there is executive meddling. Heero and such can't truely address the blood on their hands because then fangirls won't find them cute and cuddly. But the show will continue to claim it's a harsh look at war and human nature whilst ultimately putting the protagonists in a bubble. No one ever really came after the Wing pilots for revenge. Even if Heero sought such people out, we saw them just forgive him and how glad they were to have met him. Far too idealistic. I think at most we had that episode with Noventa's...grandaughter, was it?

Alucard
07-26-2008, 04:48 PM
So uh, really, how much of this praise is nostalgia talking?:p

"I'm telling you guys Voltron is a masterpiece!"

Mr. Anime
07-26-2008, 04:56 PM
So uh, really, how much of this praise is nostalgia talking?:p

"I'm telling you guys Voltron is a masterpiece!" And how much of your criticism is UC Gundam fan bias? :p

HellCat
07-26-2008, 04:57 PM
*strokes curly white mustache*

Alucard
07-26-2008, 04:58 PM
And how much of your criticism is UC Gundam fan bias? :p

90%

The other 10% is anti pretty boy bias;)

bigdeath
07-26-2008, 05:03 PM
90%

The other 10% is anti pretty boy bias;)

:D

Because REAL men look like Char with his infamous sunglasses. Oh, just looking at him makes be hate him. Bleeping pretty boy.

Mr. Anime
07-26-2008, 05:04 PM
:D

Because REAL men look like Char with his infamous sunglasses. Who is also a pretty boy....

Alucard
07-26-2008, 05:09 PM
That said, Its doubtfull I'll mistake char for a girl:sweat:

Beat
07-26-2008, 05:11 PM
No, real men look like Yazan.

Endless Waltz was another chapter in the Gundam Wing "Let's say big words like philosophy, pacifism, and we'll sound smart" saga full of plot twists outright stolen from its superior UC counterparts and pointless fights, not to mention the rather annoying blather about pacifist ideals. Really...a battle where one side tries to not kill a single soldier? The idea that someone might have guns not ringing in anyone's head? The whole pretty boys lead the future deal?:sweat:

Mediocre at best.

bigdeath
07-26-2008, 05:19 PM
http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/CODE%20GEASS/CODE%20GEASS%20R2%20-%2015%20-%20Large%2040.jpg


I say thats does the sunglass look better without the girlish Char hair.

What was this topic about again? :sad:

Alucard
07-26-2008, 05:21 PM
What was this topic about again? :sad:

Pretty boys in mecha, Gundam Wing Nostalgia, UC nostlagia and wether or not Char looks like a girl.

Serious stuff.

HellCat
07-26-2008, 05:21 PM
We really should get back on track. It'd respect GWOtaku's effort.

bigdeath
07-26-2008, 05:29 PM
GWOtaku:

Did you just go an rewatch Gundam Wing Endless Waltz? Just wondering were the willpower to write this came from. It sums up what I like about Endless Waltz quite well. But man, some people really hate Endless Waltz and gundam wing for that matter. You did a great job of showing why some of us are fans of wing.

GWOtaku
07-26-2008, 11:28 PM
Lots of thanks for the praise and opinions so far. Big, my thoughts have been developing for a long time, and that will likely continue on. The 10th anniversary was a good excuse to finally get a lot of it written down. I did rewatch most of Endless Waltz for this to help organize my thinking, and to take a few choice shots of the Gundams. As for charges of nostalgia, meant in jest or otherwise, all I can say is that I should hope it's very clear that my thoughts about this don't come from nowhere. Wing is something I've constantly gone back to ever since the TV run in 2000 so it's very much a thing of the present to me, not something that I appreciate only out of yearning sentimentality. No, I'm a child of the 80's, folks.

As a side note, there may be a part 2 coming later. I'm considering going over the manga adaptation and the three independent side stories bridging the gap between Wing and Endless Waltz, and maybe some other little details.

Regarding one other criticism, as I've said, Endless Waltz is mostly not concerned with pacifism. It went out of its way to make the point that progress doesn't just happen; people must take action. I talked about this angle at some length before. The not killing angle was certainly idealistic, but on the other hand the pilots all would have died for it if Heero hadn't shown up at the right moment. The Gundams were by no means unstoppable here, which I would think a Wing critic would consider an improvement.

You'll never see me praising Wing or Endless Waltz for gritty realism, but does it offer some things to think about? I tried to show with this that it does. It isn't UC, and odds are no AU Gundam will ever be UC. You have to approach a series on its own terms if you're going to get any enjoyment or understanding out of it. In terms of issues raised, I personally get as much thought out of this as I do Char's Counterattack--which I do think is the best Gundam movie ever made, before anyone asks.


While I can relate to the ill feelings one may get from such a cut and dry ending after much political turmoil and complexities, I enjoyed Endless Waltz. Like you said, it serves as a grand completion to the story. Yes it may have failed in some sense regarding the ideals conversed, but as a closure to both characters and story it comes off rather well. We managed to see the pasts of all the Gundam boys which were noticeably absent in the series (and with boys like them, visual pasts are needed), the ambiguity of some sort in the TV ending was met with something much more fuller than such, and characters have managed to remain as they are or developed in a more positive way. In short though they stayed true to form.

A small qualm I had was how relatively tame the Brussels battle was. Yes I'm well aware that they were restraining themselves so as not to kill the pilots of the Serpents (correct?), but compared to the rather intense initial battles of Gundam Wing in the first episodes and the advent of mobile dolls it comes off as rather held back. The only one that didn't seem to have qualms with killing was Heero given how many Serpents were destroyed as he kept blasting into the bunker.

Also, let's not neglect to mention the awesomeness of White Reflection and Last Impression.

The flashbacks were absolutely essential, I think. All the backstory was supposed to be in the series, and the narrative is much stronger for its presence. As I said, Wing was very fortunate to have a chance at a sequel in Endless Waltz.

The songs were great. My only issue with the movie edition was that white reflection wasn't included in the reworked soundtrack; it is one of the best Wing songs.

I see what you mean about Brussels, although I think the movie edition extends the battle. I thought they did the job of establishing what a hard fight the Gundams were in without drawing it out, making it longer than it should have been.



I may not be the best Wing fan, but my friend pointed out that Wing offers alot to the series other than "One army fighting another army, blah." Wing is political, idealistic, and showing things to be put in reality. I do like wing for the fact of the factions in the series, and after watching the first 15 episodes a second time, it makes more since, and is very intellectual (minus the english dubbing, well, i guess its not that bad).
I need to get around to watching Wing again, i know i will get more outta it...

There's something to that. You get the sense that what you're watching is about something, beyond the fairly straightforward drama of a war story. Even classic Gundam, to its credit, has the Newtype angle.


I think the best thing Endless Waltz did was acknowledge the mistakes of the TV series conclusion. As you say, the show basically ends on an ideal rather than a reality. It feels unfulfilling after the rest of the show has been discussing the complex reasons that people fight. Thus,it's very rewarding where Relena openly denounces her earlier beliefs and accepts something closer to reality. This is an issue which I think Gundam has botched for over a decade. Classically, Gundam characters have their hands tied and use what little power they can to change things or merely survive. However, series like Wing and SEED instead mix in too much ideal. Teenagers can suddenly topple regimes, armed with a single MS and a noble heart. That's very different from what Tomino did.

I partly agree, but I think Wing easily trumps Seed when it comes to this. In fact, a terrific aspect of both the Wing series and Endless Waltz is that just about every time a major change in the times happens up until the end, it happens in spite of what the Gundam pilots are doing. They influence and inspire, but they are generally powerless to change the direction things are going. OZ and Romefeller and White Fang are all organizations far too large for a handful of Gundams to take down, however powerful. Did they ever prevent a major coup d'etat? Did they stop Operation Nova? Did they stop White Fang from building Libra? It's even outright said that Romefeller only sees the Gundams as a nuisance. Much was made of the Gundams surviving through a series of losing battles. Seed, in contrast, often hyped Freedom as a conquering hero.


The problem for Wing, as with most Gundam and indeed fiction overall is exactly that- it's a product. Ultimately it exists to sell merchandise and it'll take short cuts, simplify and have hypocrisy to sell that merchandise. The Mobile Dolls for instance brought up an interesting commentary on the relation of humanity to war escalation, but you can clearly see it was added to sidestep the moral issue of the 5 leads. After a certain point, blubbering in the cockpit that you didn't want to kill stops working on the audience and so the Mobile Dolls allow the Gundams to have their big flashy rampages whilst technically killing no one.

To be fair, MD were a major issue in the series. Definitely far more than a gimmick for convenience. I'd also like to point out that the hand-wringing over killing was selective and by no means widespread. Heero and Wufei never thought twice about killing in the series, so far as I know Duo never displayed much regret, and Trowa had a hand-wringing moment in Antartica and then it was never seen again.

I think it's to their credit that the Gundam boys value life. They're fine with fighting their enemies and putting themselves at risk, but involving innocents is where all five of them draw the line. That's why they rejected Operation Meteor, and that's why Heero and the others went out of their way to help civilians.


The commercial aspect just creates problems. You can see that even in recent shows like Code Geass. Shows like Wing can create an interesting base, but the potential will go unfulfilled so long as there is executive meddling. Heero and such can't truely address the blood on their hands because then fangirls won't find them cute and cuddly. But the show will continue to claim it's a harsh look at war and human nature whilst ultimately putting the protagonists in a bubble. No one ever really came after the Wing pilots for revenge. Even if Heero sought such people out, we saw them just forgive him and how glad they were to have met him. Far too idealistic. I think at most we had that episode with Noventa's...grandaughter, was it?Yeah, his granddaughter Sylvia. I liked the meeting for what it was, as Heero was called out for only looking for a way to die as compensation for what he had done. By and large, yes, I think the series botched it. I really would have liked to have seen the first meeting between Heero and Noventa's wife. Without it, the letter is just out of nowhere. Sylvia alone wasn't enough to capture the drama of what Heero was doing.

bigdeath
07-26-2008, 11:41 PM
granddaughter Sylvia

Really, what was wrong with her? How could that have been better? Him not offering to kill himself? Seeing her go on a rant about wanting revenge and then coming to the realisation to forgive slower? Ignoring it all together? I was amazed they even have him ask for forgiveness. Meh...

Oh, by the way, could you do an analysis of Char's Counterattack. It would be great to read your thoughts on it.

GWOtaku
07-26-2008, 11:45 PM
Really, what was wrong with her? How could that have been better? Him not offering to kill himself? Seeing her go on a rant about wanting revenge and then coming to the realisation to forgive slower? Ignoring it all together? I was amazed they even have him ask for forgiveness.

She was fine, but it wasn't enough. The forgiveness of Noventa's wife is treated as something pretty important, but we never even met her. The arc as a whole falls short thanks to this.



Oh, by the way, could you do an analysis of Char's Counterattack. It would be great to read your thoughts on it.

Anything is possible. I'd like to take a deeper look at other anime beyond this one.

HellCat
07-26-2008, 11:48 PM
Heero trying to atone for Noventa felt flat to me because it was the start of the Gundam saviours angle. Heero had killed this man and yet his entire family treats him like they were privvy to the same knowledge as we the audience. They don't just accept/forgive it, they praise it. Noventa's wife sends a letter which basically says "I'm proud you made my husband a sacrificial lamb. Go on and enjoy life, you deserve it".

buttah
07-27-2008, 12:38 AM
Great essay, haven't seen EW in a while and when I did watch it, it was when I didn't see symbolism in anything just giant robots blowing crap up. So thanks cause now I'm gonna rewatch EW

GWOtaku
07-28-2008, 09:11 PM
Next up, a few notes and criticisms about the manga adaptation. The Endless Waltz manga was drawn by Koichi Tokita, who is also responsible for many other Gundam adaptations including the side story Battlefield of Pacifists, one of three published manga stories that attempt to connect Endless Waltz to the TV series.

Well, I should say that I like the opening script.



After Colony 195. After the greatest war the world has ever known, the Earth and the colonies chose to lay down their arms and peacefully coexist. Together they formed the Earth Sphere Unified Nation.

Did they make the right choice?

Can a true peace be legislated to the people?
That's one of the better parts, unfortunately. Unlike some of Tokita's other work this adaptation isn't nearly as condensed a summary, which I suppose is to its credit. Even so, the dialogue suffers a lot compared to the anime, though maybe Tokyopop is mostly to blame. Not much is added in the manga, but there are some interesting points one way or the other:

-When Trowa fails to kill Dekim, Dekim accepts Trowa into his forces even though he seems to know the truth about how Trowa took on his son's name. He puts the past aside for political expediency it seems, as he declares to the Mariemaia soldiers on the spot that having two Gundam pilots on their side proves their justice. I have to say, its rather surprising to me that neither Dekim or Wufei thought to keep a close eye on Trowa.

-Zechs is introduced as though he's already a Preventer agent. The anime did it far better I think; I really liked the scene where he walks in out of the blue and shocks Lady Une.

-Duo recognizes Trowa when his serpent apparently does a twirl in mid-air. While silly, it does make more sense than Duo recognizing Trowa because of...the way he's shooting while standing still? Yeah.

-Une remarks "War has been declared, but no one sees Mariemaia as a threat." Really? I doubt that, Tokita.

-Another stupid mistake: When Tallgeese III shows up, Dekim remarks that it was Treize's mobile suit. Obviously, of course, Treize never used it.

-In Wufei's flashback, Master Long tells Wufei to seek his own justice, whereas in the anime Wufei runs away after his angry rant and what happens after is left to our imagination. This addition is consistent with content in Episode Zero, where Master Long goes so far as to offer Wufei one of the clan's most precious treasures to help pay for supplies.

-In one very interesting change, the Gundams are sent away on the production factory Vulkanus. This ties into Battlefield of Pacifists, whose plot centered around the fact that there are over 300 dormant Virgo mobile dolls waiting to be used there. With Vulkanus heading back, Une considers using the mobile dolls to help deal with the Serpents. However Zechs says that he would kill her if she gave the order, remarking that they would just be repeating White Fang's mistake. Though obviously not canon, it's an interesting angle to put the temptation there. If they had gone through with it, the Earth Sphere Unified Nation would've been considered a farce.

-In the anime, after Mariemaia is shot, Dekim remarks "We can always find a replacement for Mariemaia. I made her, after all!" In the manga he remarks "I picked up that girl on the stre--" right before he is shot, directly suggesting that Mariemaia is not Treize's daughter after all. Considering Tokita's record of changing plot points in other adapatations, I take the anime as canon here. Dekim's statement there can be interpreted to mean that he could find anyone to play the part, not that Mariemaia was a fake. Episode Zero strongly hints that Treize had a relationship with Leia Barton in the past, and even earlier in Tokita's adaptation the real Trowa Barton is telling our Trowa that Mariemaia was a relative of his. As near as I can tell, beyond this one comment in the manga there's no proof at all that Mariemaia was a fake.

-At the very end, Heero is watching over Relena wearing sunglasses and apparently a suit and tie, suggesting that he's working as a legitimate bodyguard. While that makes some sense, I like the two different endings in the anime. In the OVA, Heero is watching a speech of Relena's and walks away. In the movie Relena is at some kind of treaty ceremony and looks up at the sky, with the camera cutting to Heero doing the same and remarking "mission complete." Both endings imply that Heero's personal war is finally over, and that he will likely go on looking over Relena from the shadows. Not to sound sentimental or romantic about his old ways, but that suits Heero's style better than working for Relena out in the open.

In sum, the manga is no substitute for the real thing. It's helpful for a little perspective and decent for the art, but that's mostly all in my book. Its value is greater if Battlefield of Pacifists happens to be your favorite side story, although for me that honor goes to Blind Target.

Zeonic Freak
07-29-2008, 11:30 AM
No, real men look like Yazan.



True Dat, that dude was a beast, or how he was described by Sarah " ... like a wild beast."

Shoot, even in the beginning of Double Zeta, he was still trying to get revenge against the Argama and Kamille by getting Judou and his gang to fight with him.


The problem for Wing, as with most Gundam and indeed fiction overall is exactly that- it's a product.

Speaking of products, we should have an official Gundam Model thread. I know there was one on the past, but it was on the toonami section, and, didnt really get alot of reviews. Shoot, if have a huge list of Gunpla i can list up, if i can remember whats in my boxes.

But yea, were so off topic...

HellCat
07-29-2008, 12:19 PM
Something I find interesting is that in the manga and novels, the story ends with the five going to colonise Mars. Compare that to the TV series, where they just assume normal lives and Heero keeps an eye on Relena. Makes me wonder if the Mars idea was the ending before they knew they were getting a sequel. They do reference it later by saying it was a project Relena was pushing for.

GWOtaku
07-29-2008, 01:00 PM
Yeah, that's an interesting alternative outcome. It plays into the whole "I will survive" thing, the concept that man lives a precarious existence in space but will persevere. Wish I could find the translation of the very ending, as it mentions the contents of Heero's letter to Relena. Something about finding a new battle of survival on Mars, & I think it ends on the "I will survive" line. The final lines of the last novel also have the Gundams hidden at different places on Earth, presumably waiting to be called on if needed.

It's been awhile but I think the site that had that content is sadly gone now, but at least there is a fan who is slowly translating (http://www.gundamwingtales.com/) the light novels and is more than half done.

I haven't read it in quite some time and my copy seems to be missing, but I believe Battlefield of Pacifists also has Wufei befriending a Treize loyalist that wanted to use Vulkanus to, I think, explore the galaxy. Of course he gets backstabbed and killed by one of the hyper pacifists, who just want the mobile suits inside. Though not the best side story in my opinion, it at least hits on a nice theme with the idea of humanity struggling toward progress beyond the chaos of all the recent war. It also gives some nice motivation for Wufei's actions in Endless Waltz, since the hyper pacifists messed up his friend's ideal. It gives some substance to his declaration that humanity and the Earth haven't changed.

HellCat
07-30-2008, 06:46 AM
I'm pretty sure I know the site you mean. One of the first I found and had alot of info on the Japanese exclusive stuff like the novels and the Odds & Evens OVAs (which really do make episode 49 feel less rushed and pick up on some otherwise throw away lines).


Random note- from GA, a 'Queen Relena' figure is being released, alongside a Lacus. Start your teenage despot collection today!