MP3s and Grammy responses

[Calhoun07]

I didn't really get to watch this last night, but caught bits and pieces here and there as it was on at work. So, what did you all think?

There was only one thing I really remember (outside of the way cool Moulin Rouge performance!) and that was some guy talking on and on about downloading music. He talked about how many BILLIONS of songs get downloaded every day. He talked about the legality aspect of it all and I kept thinking to myself, are these record companies REALLY losing that much money?

I mean, what I down load mostly are things I cannot find anywhere else. Usually it's live versions of songs I already have on CD and of artists I like, or it's unreleased stuff that you cannot find anywhere else, or it's out of print stuff that I would have to give up my left lung for on fleecEBay. Or, occasionally, its a single I like on the radio that I know I will NEVER buy on CD. But I don't think it's prevented me ever from buying CDs I like and love. If anything it's enhanced my appreciation for the music by artists I already have on CD. And let's say they shut down all these MP3 sites. What then? All that's left, as I indicated before, is fleecEBay, and who's making the money off of those "CD" sales (cuz we all know they would be CD-Rs anyway made by fans)? Certainly not the record companies.

I just thought that guy who spoke about downloading songs was way off base. Maybe it is hurting record sales, but somehow I doubt it. I use WINMX and I have a hard time finding complete CDs by new artists out there.

[ccffan01]

Wanna hear something cool. My music teracher played trumpet in Alicia Keys performance. You could see him in the dark in the right hand corner. Anyway I thought the grammys sucked.

[Samhaine]

If I went through all of my MP3s, I'd say roughly 75% were songs from CDs I already own or CDs that I haven't been able to find (such as smaller bands I heard of while working at the college radio station). The other 25% are pop songs for when I'm in the mood for popiness. I'd never want the CD, because it would probably NEVER be listened to, but a song every once in a while helps lift spirits.

[The Polisher]

Most of the MP3's I download are off of imported CDs that cost a TON of money ($40 for a single CD!). It's stuff that is VERY hard to find in the US at your neighborhood music store. Either that or real obsure artists that (for some reason) their record company decided to make virtually no copies of.

[James]

Originally posted by Calhoun07
I didn't really get to watch this last night, but caught bits and pieces here and there as it was on at work. So, what did you all think?

I just thought that guy who spoke about downloading songs was way off base. Maybe it is hurting record sales, but somehow I doubt it. I use WINMX and I have a hard time finding complete CDs by new artists out there.

I agree with all the last three posts.

Firstly, there are obviously people who download entire albums instead of buying them - we have to face that fact before we defend downloads. How many I'm not sure, but I reckon they do a great diservice.

Personally, I looked at my files and mine are:
a) Files I NEVER by - I have one S Club 7, one Tears For Fears, one Kylie Minogue. Individual songs that I'd NEVER buy because I either HATE the artist or just like the one song.
b) Imports. If the country you live in does not produce them, and it will cost 70 quid to get the CD, I have no qualms. If they sold it here at a reasonable price I'd get it (Final Fantasy - I'm pointing at you!!)
c) Songs I've liked and will likely buy the album. There have been MANY albums I have bought through MP3s.
d) Songs I've tried, hated, will delete. Nickleback - you HEAR ME? Afterall doesn't radio offer the same thing?
e) Remixes from the Internet. Remixes of 8bit console games, FF tracks...
f) Songs I already have on tape/CD.

I think rather than whining, crying, sobbing and spitting, the recording industry should be looking at a way to EVOLVE with the technology and sort out the mess it's in.

IF people are downloading WHOLE albums, instead of shutting places down, offer some incentive with the albums. Technology can't be stopped - RC should get off their lazy butts and concentrate on producing GOOD music and a firm product and a GOOD price rather than trying to lay down the law and looking like idiots!

[Deltamon]

Hoo wee. The argument I ca never get into without ending up with mixed feelings afterwards. As an artist (of a separate medium, mind you) I can definately emphatize(?) with the idea of people taking my stuff and not giving me credit where credit's due. In my case, though, I give an xtra hissy fit if a particular character or drawing of mine is blatantly altered and put online as someone else's work. Musicians very rarely have this problem, though (I mean besides P.Diddly/Puff Daddy, and he at least asks permission before altering the song...at least he better be!) :p :p :P


On the other hand, I'm an Ex-Napster user...


Before you judge me, though, consider what I collect:

-Remixes based on video games or other shows. Half the time these are fanmade, and next to impossible to find anywhere else.

-Anime singles, usually image songs and Intro/Ending themes that would be too hard or too expensive to buy (and I might end up regretting the investment in the long run anyway because I'd only be interested in one or two songs). And since my family buys online once under a blue moon, I can nix looking in places like Ebay from my list of choices.

And I'd LOVE to see someone find me a Zoids(any of the 3 series) OST anywhere.

The rest tend to be 'gifts' from friends online or the occasional on-the-spot song that I really really really needed for that one moment (Like the Spanish theme song for the anime series Saint Seiya which, BTW, makes the US Digimon theme song sound like Mozart).

I don't collect whole albums (As if I had the patience, anyway!) and I certainly don't sell burned CDs (gifts, maybe, but its a very very very rare occasion, and I don't put in more than 15 songs from various artists, anyway).

I've nothing to really add, so I'll just vamoose now.

[Failure]

Whoo, my opinion on this is pretty convoluted and completely hypocritical, but here goes.

It's plain and simple: the music industry is using file downloading as a scapegoat. There's this little thing we in the business world like to call a recession going on for about the past year. And trivial things like music sales tend to drop during these recessions. I'm inclined to believe that business cycles are more influential on final sales numbers than file sharing programs. If you look to napster's prime years (coinciding with the years of the economic boom) music sales actually increased. However, all this is correlational and I don't think it's been proven causally, so it's all up to argument.

I'm also not inclined to support the music industry one bit. When you talk about rapists(in the business sense) the music industry is probably far and away the worst case. Lack of a strong musicians' union allow the music conglomerates to do whatever they want with whomever they want.

That said, I completely understand artists' point of view that they don't want their work doled out to millions without compensation. If I was a musician I'd feel the same. However, here's where my hypocrisy kicks in, I download mp3's of regular songs, I even download mp3's of whole albums. But I do plan to buy those albums in the future, and if I hadn't downloaded it, I probably wouldn't have bought it anyway (no $ is no $) and would've forgotten about it over time, while if I had the mp3's on my computer, I would've been reminded time and time again. I also download mp3's of lesser known bands and have found a bunch of bands I love that I never would've even heard of if I relied solely on radio (to digress a little, radio sucks. they're basically run by the music corporations and payola, supposedly illegal, runs rampant.).

I think I've gone off on a pretty big tangent, so getting back to whether mp3s are killing sales, I don't think they are. I think they help sales in some aspects and hurt them in other aspects and ultimately, the effects cancel each other out more or less. But I do emphasize with the artists. But technology cannot be stopped, you have to embrace it and turn it for your own advantage. Whining really wont do any good.

So why are corporations so peeved over file sharing? For one, it is a form ofstealing. But more than anything, I think they realize that if they keep harping on the issue of downloads (more or less a common enemy for both the fatcats and musicians), they keep themselves from having to deal with artists' clamoring for a union and more rights and etc. It's an age-old political tactic.

Shoot, I know I've been rambling and this is way long :), but I think this is one of those issues with many shades of gray and no clear black and white.

[Calhoun07]

To artists who feel that they are being cheated if I download a couple songs of theirs I like but I don't particuarly care for their music as a whole, all I can say is that maybe thru me liking that one song, a friend of mine might be turned on to you and be provoked to buy your entire CD. You never know. And I don't sell any of the stuff I download, but I will let people hear it from time to time if I find something really interesting. So it's either I don't buy the music at all, and I don't give it any kind of exposure, or I download it and nobody is out any money anyway, and maybe if I give it some exposure among my friends word of this artist will get around and draw some interest to them.

I guess I look at MP3s as radio at my control. I control the programming, so to speak, when I chose what songs to listen to. And I will still buy CDs of artists I like because sometimes all you can find are certain songs by artists but not everything they have ever put out. And if you ever do find everything they put out, you can never find the time to download them all. And my time is money, so I'd rather spend $15.00 and have a CD by somebody I like than spend the next two months chasing down songs online.

Honestly, I would be more ticked off at people making money off my music on E Bay. Seriously, I've seen CDs sell for good money out there and we all know the artist doesn't see one single dime. And the person who won the bid isn't going to buy that CD in a store and support the band, cuz they got it already used. I would think if anything is hurting music, it's second hand CDs over MP3s. I think if an artist is good enough, their MP3s will only promote them and propell their sales, especially if they are good yet unknown, cuz hardly anybody wants to buy a CD unless they have heard some of the songs.

[Psycho Fox]

Well MP3 technology could lead to labels being obsolete since we would no longer need a middle man. It would not be hard for an artist to set up a pay per download system or go the other way and put ads in the MP3 file then just crack down on people that edit them out.

[Calhoun07]

If there was a pay per download site, and it was just one song I was interested in, my response would be the same as if I was deciding whether to buy the CD or not: I would just live without that song. Sorry, but there are just some songs on the radio I like and want copies of, and I guess if that makes me a bad person for downloading them and not paying the artist, then that makes me bad, but I don't see it as any different than taping songs off the radio (and the record companies never liked that either, by the way). The main difference is now I can put them on CD instead of a tape. So either the artist will have to deal with me downloading it for free or taping it for free. Sorry, but if it's just one song, I am not paying to download it or paying to buy the CD.

Tho if I knew I could get a dedicated, FAST download stream to get an entire CD for, oh, say $2.99 or so, I would do it if it was an artist who I wanted every song from on that particular CD.

[Failure]

Originally posted by Calhoun07
I guess I look at MP3s as radio at my control. I control the programming, so to speak, when I chose what songs to listen to. And I will still buy CDs of artists I like because sometimes all you can find are certain songs by artists but not everything they have ever put out. And if you ever do find everything they put out, you can never find the time to download them all. And my time is money, so I'd rather spend $15.00 and have a CD by somebody I like than spend the next two months chasing down songs online.

Honestly, I would be more ticked off at people making money off my music on E Bay. Seriously, I've seen CDs sell for good money out there and we all know the artist doesn't see one single dime. And the person who won the bid isn't going to buy that CD in a store and support the band, cuz they got it already used. I would think if anything is hurting music, it's second hand CDs over MP3s. I think if an artist is good enough, their MP3s will only promote them and propell their sales, especially if they are good yet unknown, cuz hardly anybody wants to buy a CD unless they have heard some of the songs.

Those two paragraphs summed up my views perfectly!

I don't listen to the radio anymore, I haven't in years. It's boring, it's repititave and most important, it's "un-controllable."

I don't condone the selling or distribution of "self-created" cd's one bit though. It may be a trivial point, but I think there's a big difference in having a computer file on your computer to having it in bootleg cda format.

And I've always wondered why a stink's never been raised about the selling of 2nd-handed cd's. Maybe because it's legal?

[James]

Radio also suffers from the dreadful DJ syndrome. I can't stand DJs... play the SONGS dammit! And different ones!

I agree with Failure's early remark - the music industry is in a bad state and this is a scapegoat.

MP3's has meant I've listened to music or looked at artists I'd have NEVER listened to.

I don't believe in downloading whole albums - I think no matter how much you hate the industry, you do still have to keep feeding it to make it a market where artists can produce material. if it's got to the point when I have almost the whole album (BB:ROTJ for example) I will probably buy the album.

However, something has to change in the music industry - and that's up to them rather than trying to crush the people with a cries of heresy!

[Calico]

I think a great disservice has been done to the many authors of great (and not so great) literature. These great big buildings exist where people can go and read their books for FREE! Why would anyone ever BUY a book?? *Gasp* These hardworking writers are having their product used without earning a dime. This wave of gratuitous word sharing needs to be stopped now! [/end sarcasm]

[Calhoun07]

And close all television stations! This is only allowing people to see movies and TV for free or virtually nothing thru their cable companies, and DVD and home video sales are suffering for it!

I do from time to time make CD-Rs of my favorite songs and give them to friends who might be interested, but by no means do I sell them, nor do I copy full CDs for them. I let them have compilation CDs for the same reason I used to give my friends compilation tapes, and that's to expose them to new music and hopefully provoke them to buy the full CDs from the store, and thus promote the artists I like even more.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by Calhoun07
If there was a pay per download site, and it was just one song I was interested in, my response would be the same as if I was deciding whether to buy the CD or not: I would just live without that song. huh but you would be paying per song thus if it was only one song you would pay for that one song
Sorry, but there are just some songs on the radio I like and want copies of, and I guess if that makes me a bad person for downloading them and not paying the artist, then that makes me bad, but I don't see it as any different than taping songs off the radio (and the record companies never liked that either, by the way). The main difference is now I can put them on CD instead of a tape. So either the artist will have to deal with me downloading it for free or taping it for free. Sorry, but if it's just one song, I am not paying to download it or paying to buy the CD.The diffence would be that with a pay per download the arist is getting most of the profits, buying a CD or lissening to it on the radio the label gets most of the profits. I don't mind screwing the labels since they are a bunch of bums anyway but I fell the artist deserves more respect.

[Failure]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
The diffence would be that with a pay per download the arist is getting most of the profits, buying a CD or lissening to it on the radio the label gets most of the profits. I don't mind screwing the labels since they are a bunch of bums anyway but I fell the artist deserves more respect. [/B]

Are you sure about that? I could understand this if it was the artists who set up pay per download themselves, but if it's the record labels who set up the service, wouldn't they keep most of the royalties, just like cd sales?

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by Failure


Are you sure about that? I could understand this if it was the artists who set up pay per download themselves, but if it's the record labels who set up the service, wouldn't they keep most of the royalties, just like cd sales? Well each artist wouldn't set up their own pay per download service it would most likely be a company that would provide the service to many arist but more and likely a small start up internet company trying to do a pay per download service would ask for a very small piece of the pie to stay competitive

[Sheamon]

lol, the RIAA cracks me up. What I find 'interesting' is them claiming that the mp3 has destroyed the industry then the next day in Billboard I see that Britney Spears has sold another 700,000 albums in a week. Any decreasement in sales most likely has to do with the fact that napster was killed and this little known thing called the 'recession'.

I go to a music store it costs me $19 for a CD. Lets see. Of that $19...
The CD costs about a dime.
The packaging, liner, plastic wrap, etc... costs maybe 50 cents or so.
Royalties give about a quarter to the artist.
Shipping's probably about another quarter or so a CD if not less.
The store itself probably makes 3 or 4 dollars per CD.
Leaving around $14 to go the the industry per CD. Lets see... So if it costs them $1.10 to make each CD, they'd be making over a 1000% profit, wouldn't they? And you want me to sympathize with you? For christs sake, there's this little thing called ECONOMICS. When you are clearly screwing the customer, they go elsewhere. As simple as that. Lower the price of a CD to $10 and maybe you'll see this downloading problem go away.

[oranthal]

Mya is so hot! does anyone agree with me? she is so yummy. she is certainly the most beautiful of the four "moulin rouge" girls.

[JohnStewart-GL]

i definately agree. she is the hottest.
Lil Kim is hot too though.

[oranthal]

nah. lil' kim is more of the trashy-type and that is a big turn off.


Originally posted by JohnStewart-GL
i definately agree. she is the hottest.
Lil Kim is hot too though.

[Maxie Zeus]

Here's a rant about the music industry (http://happyfunpundit.blogspot.com/?/2002_02_24_happyfunpundit_archive.html) that I thought people might find interesting. It's on the same theme.

Excerpt:



On the Grammy awards the other night, Michael Greene ranted for an eternity about how music swapping was killing the record industry. He pointed out that record sales are down over 10% this year, and blamed the downturn on file swapping networks.

But then we find out that Grammy viewership has hit a six year low. Hey Michael, does file swapping explain this? If the kids today are swimming in music, why aren't they tuning in to the Grammys in record numbers to see their favorite acts?

I have an alternate theory for the downturn in record sales: THE MUSIC SUCKS. You know something is very, very wrong when Barry Manilow is on top of the charts with a moldy greatest hits collection instead of caterwauling at the Tick-Tock Inn for tip-jar money.

You want to know why the kids aren't buying your music? How about because you package two or three 'good' songs along with 8 other pieces of complete crap, call it an album, and sell it for $20? How about because you cancel record deals with great artists like John Prine or Warren Zevon so that you can make more shelf space for the latest focus group packaged boy band or pyrotechnic female singer with big hooters but no soul?

[BLACKHEART]

There was only one cd released this year that was any good. There has been a lot of crap released. It's a bunch of Korn-fed crap. It's a lot of pop with no meaning crap. It's not a napster's fault. It's the industry's fault for putting out crap

[Failure]

Without KoRn, you'd probably never have heard of Slipknot though. Korn moved mainstream rock music to a heavier sound. I think they deserve a lot of credit for that.

I don't really agree with the rant on the music industry. The pre-constructed music with 2 good songs and 10 fillers are the cd's that are selling 10 million copies a year. Contrary to popular belief, "good" music is not what the the general populace wants. Most "good" music goes unnotices and sells only a few thousand copies. File sharing is a small part of the reason, but if record companies want to blame someone, they should blame radio (personally, I still stand by that little thing called the recession ;) ).

[Nightwing]

As usual with controversies like this, I'm not swayed whatsoever by either side. I'm against the general public because they like doing illegal things like that anyway (although some of those "illegal" things are "illegal" but not neccessarily wrong). For example, reasons like "oh well fans would burn and sell CDs to people anyway, you can't stop it." I think that shows some irresponsibility on the part of the public. And I'm against the record companies because all they want is money, no matter what they say. Um, not much else needed to say there. They're pretty self explainatory. :D

I guess, generally speaking, I'm simply shunning the greed that everyone has.

And as a computer user of this generation, I can honestly say that things like "pay per download" are complete stupidity. It's just wrong. I hate when people think they can leach money off of computer users like that.

[Joe Wagner]

I honestly don't see how mp3's are killing the music industry. I liked the analogy of having to shut down cable TV becuz it's hurting DVD sales. Personally I have a pretty big collection of mp3's but at the same time they are mainly of songs that I would never buy and only listen to a couple of times. The music industry needs to learn though that rather than blaming the mp3 market for their troubles they should look at the way they sell their albums. If they are going to charge me $18 to buy a CD with 10 songs for an artist I don't even know that well then I'm probably not going to buy the CD. The worst part is you can't even find a good single for under $7 any more. A single - one freaking song! Instead they charge you almost half of the price of the actual CD and include the "super-duper party pooper extreme heavy duty" remix of the song. It's very irritating for music fans - why should we have to dish out our money to an industry that could care less about the quality of a CD, as long as they can pay Joe Shmoe $48 million dollars for three albums? Obviously I have very little sympathy for a $14 Billion industry that feels they are above the consumer. Just my two cents.

-Joe!

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by Nightwing
And as a computer user of this generation, I can honestly say that things like "pay per download" are complete stupidity. It's just wrong. I hate when people think they can leach money off of computer users like that. Well there is already a few up and the format seems to work they get payed for every down plus the file requires a special viewer that puts adds on the screen while playing thus the also get ad money too so they don't care if people share the file. I think the idea is cool as it reduces the power of the middle man. The artist gets most of the money on the sites since the record compaies shuns them and the site it self only gets a small cut