Batman #600 *spoilers*

[CadaverousEyes]

I'll start this off, if that's all right with everyone...

A great issue. I particularly liked how Barbara really suspects Bruce did it, Nightwing constantly assuring him that he doesn't believe for a second that he's guilty, and Robin being completely divided on the matter. Dick's anger was completely justified, and I actually wanted him to give Batman the beating he needed. However, the revelation that Wayne has always been a mask seemed a bit.. off. Hasn't he been through this before and learned to accept that he needs to be both Bruce and Batman to stay sane? Eh, we'll see what happens. The three retro-styled stories in the back were even better than the main one, and the best part? I managed to get the last copy off the stands. "Up your wang with a bat-a-rang..."

[Kathy Kane]

I think that Batman has finally lost it and has decided to be one personality.
I think he has multiple personality syndrome. What Barb needs to do is have an intervention, somewhere that isn't the Cave.

Another thing is if Bats doesn't want any of his old allies around, how is he going to get information and support if he needs it ?
And what about Sasha, where does this leave her, is Batman gonna break her outta jail or leave her there?
Plus why is Alfred helping Bruce again? :confused:

This issue raises too many questions and not enough answers.

But the question on everyone mind is Did he murder Vesper?

Call me Kane.

[James Harvey]

All these questions are set becuase they will be answered and explored in the BRUCE WAYNE: FUGITIVE arc. I think this will turn out to be the best crossover ever for Batman...I like how it's focused more on Batman and the characters. Plus it's cool how alot of things happened off screen (the murder, Bruce's escape...).

[Trent Lane]

Wow, this was one powerful read. There was so much emotion from Dick, and it was completely justified. I wonder where he stands now? I really wonder why Bruce is acting this way? Does he know more than he's letting on? I can't believe that he would kill because someone figured out his "occupation", but his behavior makes me wonder... nah, he couldn't kill. He's just being a pain in the ass for some reason...

[kid_flash]

YES! This RULES! NOT ONLY do we kick an awesome story about the possibility of Bruce Wayne killing someone, NOT ONLY do we get a fight scene between Batman and Nightwing, NOT ONLY is Batman getting rid of the Bruce Wayne gig for awhile, but now we get to hear all those people whine about how they think writers today just take the "Frank Miller Insane Batman" shtick.

Seriously, though, this ruled. FUGITIVE's starting off with a bang (well...the bangs came earlier, so now...ah, never mind). I'm really glad the writers are really diving into the heads of the characters and not making every character believe Bruce is innocent.

And I'm looking at the handy Diamond shipping list (which I feel the need to mention from time to time), and unfortunately it's another two weeks until the next part of FUGITIVE. Awww, nutbunnies!

[Manhunter]

Originally posted by Trent Lane
Wow, this was one powerful read. There was so much emotion from Dick, and it was completely justified. I wonder where he stands now? I really wonder why Bruce is acting this way? Does he know more than he's letting on? I can't believe that he would kill because someone figured out his "occupation", but his behavior makes me wonder... nah, he couldn't kill. He's just being a pain in the ass for some reason...

You know how many people would be dead, if he did? It wouldn't just be Vesper Fairchild, I can tell you that.

[James Harvey]

I'm not all to sure of his sanity either. With the recent whole 'split personality' thing, I wouldn't be surprised. Also, with stock in his company falling quickly, how long will it be until he's broke? This new turning point opens a whole new can of worms.

[CadaverousEyes]

Notice also that he doesn't even care about who killed Vesper. He either knows who did it and refuses to pursue them, actually killed her, or genuinely doesn't care. And since when does Batman not care about solving a mystery?

[nerium_oleander]

Originally posted by CadaverousEyes
Notice also that he doesn't even care about who killed Vesper. He either knows who did it and refuses to pursue them, actually killed her, or genuinely doesn't care. And since when does Batman not care about solving a mystery?

Nice point CE, what would make Bats shirk the one rule he's had continuosly throughout the twisting continuums. I was in the shop today bouncing ideas off the usual suspects and I'm stumped. Rucka's novels are great mysterys to read, and it's kinda cool he's working more mystery into Tec et al.

The split persona thing has always been one of the reasons I like Bats, even more Harvey Dent, I can go on an on about them being different sides of the same coin, (full of corniness sure); but sanity has always been a thin line with this world. We all go a little crazy sometimes... ya know. It'd be cool if he did kill her, but that's obviously not what happened. Have to wait and see. I never really cared for Vesper, so she's no big loss, but it would have been cool if Sasha got iced. Hmmm, and then maybe Bruce did do it? Ah Sasha's cool and all, but she cramps the style ya know?

-n

[The Guard]

OBSERVATIONS:

Batman waited for them. He wasn't just waiting for the cops to leave so he could get into the cave.

He dropped the mask. Not because he's crazy. Because he's smart. Bruce Wayne IS a burden. A liability. Vesper proved that. Like Batman said..."Bruce Wayne was a way inside. There are no more of those."

Batman mentioned a sense of relief at losing the mask. But look at the last illustration. He's HURTING. That isn't a "Batman swinging and looking angry" shot, that's Batman HURTING. He did something he had to do, but didn't want to do it.

WHAT ABOUT SASHA? Is he just going to leave her in prison?

[MattL.]

Personally, I find this development depressing and kind of disgusting.

Of course I've never subscribed to the school of thought that Batman was insane. Which one of the shopping list of reasons I loathe Frank Millers work.

Obssesed and determined. Unorthadox to a fault perhaps, and I realize what a fine line can seperate the two. He is a haunted man. But he's not nuts. Frank had to make him nuts because he can't rationalize little things like the costume yet he still insists on working with superheroes. A genre he clearly does not understand anymore, and I'm not even sure he likes. Add to this that every writer (and fan) since 1986 has taken this one experimental work and used like the new gospel as though the character never had all those years of history and was created the day Frank typed page 1 of DKR.

To me this is the worst move I've seen since that issue of the dreaded clone-saga where Peter Parker starting making a web cocoon above his bed and hiding in it. :mad:

[Clayface]

Originally posted by kid_flash
...but now we get to hear all those people whine about how they think writers today just take the "Frank Miller Insane Batman" shtick.



Originally posted by MattL.
Personally, I find this development depressing and kind of disgusting.

Of course I've never subscribed to the school of thought that Batman was insane. Which one of the shopping list of reasons I loathe Frank Millers work.



Hehehe. How right you are, kid_flash, how right you are....

[MattL.]

Yeah whatever Clayface.

[nightwing_38116]

Originally posted by MattL.
Personally, I find this development depressing and kind of disgusting.

Of course I've never subscribed to the school of thought that Batman was insane. Which one of the shopping list of reasons I loathe Frank Millers work.

Obssesed and determined. Unorthadox to a fault perhaps, and I realize what a fine line can seperate the two. He is a haunted man. But he's not nuts. Frank had to make him nuts because he can't rationalize little things like the costume yet he still insists on working with superheroes.

Miller's take on Bats made Bats believable in my book. Batman is NOT MENTALLY stable. No fully sane man would dress as a Bat and hunt criminals. That's the brilliance behind the character in my opinion. Bats had a very childlike reaction to seeing his parents gunned down in front of him, "I'll dress up as a Bat and scare them." Gotham has always been a city that I could relate to in the sense of being a resident. High crime, corruption ect. If you began hearing of a guy dressed as a Bat doing what Bats does the first thing you'd think is, "What a nut". Miller gave me a version Batman that I could buy into. Driven, relentless, tormented, intelligent, brilliant, and committed. Do I think that Batman is a total loon? No. Needs some serious mental help? Yes.
He is rational in his strategic thinking and totally screwed up in many other aspects. That's what draws me to this character. He's good looking, wealthy beyond most peoples dreams, and highly intelligent, and has a group of those who love him and would die for him. Yet his mind is truly fragile. You can't ask for a better character than that.

[BLACKHEART]

Anyone who wears a costume in public isn't sane. Did I ever mention I have an assortment of masks and costumes I enjoy wearing?

[Ms. Kitty]

I'M NEW!!!!! :D

Iam SO gonna buy this issue!! I also wanna know what you guys think about the latest Gotham Knights OK?

These reviews make Purrgirl very happy! Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...HACK!-URK!....sorry fur ball... ;)

[BLACKHEART]

The latest issue of Gotham Knights is horrible. If you haven't read it I suggest you don't buy it. The storyline is two weeks old and outdated.

[MattL.]

Well see thats just it. Superheroes are a fantasy genre. The costumes are part of that fantasy. Part of what makes it what it is and what makes it fun for gods sake.

But if you have to rationalize stuff like the costumes and the only way you can do that is make the character a wacked out psychotic then I think it misses the point.

If you've "outgrown" superheroes then just dont do them. Or read them. Its a genre conceit and if you can't one can't wrap their brain around it then the problem is with them and not the genre.

Even at the end of Batman Year One, Frank just had to take him out of the costume.

Touches of reality are fine but you can ground a fantasy idea in so much "realism" that it chokes on the dirt. Making Batman insane is weak because its basically like apologizing for the costume being there.

How far is this going to go? I mean if everyone is requiring 6:00 news level reality then we might as well just Bruce Wayne in a ski-mask and make the Bat Cave a padded room.

and where the hell is the romance and escapism in that?

and no my view does not mean I want to return to the 60's show or Batman of the 50's.

The animated series had the right idea and the right balance. I think Bruce Timm is one of the few people left on the planet that actually gets it and can see comicbook characters outside of the Frank Miller box. While at the same time incorperating some of the better aspects of Millers work into his own.

I view superheroes as fantasy but others seem to think of them as and want them to be sociopolitical mainstream fiction, which to me just sucks all the joy out of comics.

[nightwing_38116]

While I do agree with you I feel that Batman easily lends itself to a sort of neo-escapism that fits the world that we live in today. While the "classic" superhero genre is a valid genre even in today's society, it's part of any solid character's evolution that they may be subject to the shifts and trends that come with a changing society. Batman's element of escapism comes from the fact that many of us observe what goes on in the world around us and find pleasure in reading about a "hero" acting out against some of those negative forces in a world familiar to us. Many feel that for a man to do that in our current society he would likely be a "little off". Not only as a result of the society that spawned him and his actions, but as a coping mechanism as well.

[CadaverousEyes]

*chokes with laughter* Okay, *ahem*

Frank Miller took him out of the costume to demonstrate that Batman, under no circumstances, wears the costume during the day. Batman made a ton of daytime and public appearances during the silver age and this doesn't fit right with his character. A guy who dresses up as a big scary bat and fights crime isn't a smiling and happy people person.

A lot of comics are taking a turn in realism, and while I may not like it, a lot of others do, and I like the way it's being done with Batman. Notice, though, that Brubaker also penned the two silver age-type stories in the back. They wouldn't feel out of place at all in the 50s and 60s, so it's obvious he has a lot of respect for the character in all his incarnations. If you don't like the current incarnation, then just ignore it and stock up on the silver age or batman tas/gotham adventures comics or whatever. There's plenty of escapism and romance in those stories.

[Sugar Daddy]

I read the issue today, and its really good. I really like the fight scene, and I'm really looking forward to the next part. Weird question, but there was no letters page in this issue, right? Also, what's with starting the comic with the last few pages of the issue before it? JLA #63 did that too.

[Sugar Daddy]

Waaaaaaaait a second here. The end of the issue says to be continued in Detective Comics # 768. But DCComics.com and TZ say the 2nd part is the next Birds of Prey. What is going on here. The summary for the next Detective Comics doesn't tie in to Fugitive, so Batman isn't in trouble.

[Sugar Daddy]

Anyone?

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Sugar Daddy
Waaaaaaaait a second here. The end of the issue says to be continued in Detective Comics # 768. But DCComics.com and TZ say the 2nd part is the next Birds of Prey. What is going on here. The summary for the next Detective Comics doesn't tie in to Fugitive, so Batman isn't in trouble.

Huh?

If you check out TZ's listings for comics coming out next week it shows that the story is continued in Detective Comics.

http://www.toonzone.net/comics/solicitations/2002-03/batman.html

It follows Batman back on the streets fighting crime - just like he was at the end of Batman #600. Its just that we don't get anything directly relating to the storyline of trying to clear him until Birds of Prey.

[Sugar Daddy]

So, technically, its not part of the Bruce Wayne Murderer Storyline, but Bruce still is in trouble?

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Sugar Daddy
So, technically, its not part of the Bruce Wayne Murderer Storyline, but Bruce still is in trouble?

Yep, you got it. Basically, Batman has given up the Bruce persona completely, so (I'm guessing) he'll just be running around fighting crime as Batman as usual, while the rest of the Bat-team tries to figure out what the heck really happened withthe murder, how to do deal with it all, and how to bring some sense back into Batman's head.

[Domino]

I'm generally with Matt L. on this. I don't care for the way this version of Batman acts, nor for the way Frank Miller has portrayed him most of the time. I enjoyed Year One, but not Dark Knight, nor the Spawn/Batman crossover that Miller wrote, and especially not DK2. I just hope that there's something rational behind it all!

And Kid Flash, there's a reason why you can predict that the people who don't like Miller's work will now voice their opinion. It's because we have a valid opinion, as do you.

Miller succeeded in "deconstructing" the superhero in 1986. Some of us didn't want our heroes "deconstructed." What is required to believe in Batman going out in a costume is suspension of disbelief, and unfortunately a lot of today's fiction relies on beating people over the head with the obvious, and kowtowing to the lowest common denominator. I'd like to be given a little credit as a reader, and to be trusted to read between the lines sometimes.

I have hope that there's a good story behind Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive. I have faith that we're not going to be subjected to an oversimplified Multiple Personality Disorder crutch. We saw that a few years ago in the Incredible Hulk. I think the writers know better than to fall back on something so simple. Don't get me wrong, I like this storyline because for the first time in a while, I'm interested. I can hardly wait for my next batch of comics to come. I get excited when the UPS guy stops outside my house. I even called my comic book dealer and had them switch me to twice monthly shipping so I wouldn't have to wait so long. That, in itself, is a good thing. So I'm hanging in there, Bat-editors. Don't let me down!

[Beyond Batman]

I couldn't have asked for anything better. Is it me or is this the first book I've picked up in a while that had all of the Bat cast in the same panels? It was a nice reunion between the Bat crew... and it's nice to see they're handeling things well. Sort of. More like venting out pent up rage amongst each other. But hey, don't we all break up to make up?

I'm sure you'll all agree the frustration between all of them was very well portrayed. And that the way Nightiwng and Bats came to fistacuffs over who was right and wrong was a strong, powerful, and intense emotional moment.

Additional comments: Over time, I've noticed someone here has had a big "hard on" for Bruce Timm and how he's the last survivor of bringing Batman to his romantic and escapism roots. All the while, he downplays and degrades Frank Miller's work by calling it "disgusting."

Well, it's a harsh realty to face my friend, but Batman's not shifting into reverse. Do you think he can really go back? I don't call the animated universe "disgusting," however, I see it as a different interpretation of Batman. I would like to think a "real fan" would appreciate different adaptations of Batman in the comic realm rather than trash it. Not liking it out of personal preference is one thing... completely stripping it of it's good qualities and flushing it down the toilet is another (in your case is 90% of the time when it comes to comics)...

Interesting how you added nothing to this thread about Batman #600, yet jumped quickly into how Frank Miller's the devil. Why didn't you just start your own "I hate Frank Miller" thread rather than rain on our parade. Or better yet, tell us why you didn't like #600? It would be more constructive and appropriate to this thread, rather than hearing about your obsession for Timm and your hatred for Miller. Also, #600, a quaral between family members... is that really that psychotic. I think your fingers are being pointed the wrong way because you're concentrating on what's psychotic, your completely missing the sane humanity part of it.

If you can't embrace Batman's evolution, then take CadaverousEyes' advice. Stock up on those silverages and BTAS, and live in the past, because you're adding nothing but negativity. Keep reading Gotham Adventures and stop pointing fingers at the mainstream books. BTW, I don't think Gotham Adventures has made any improvements in their evolvement, does that mean anything to you?

I on the otherhand, think Batman's character is developing quite well and I'm glad to see how Batman has evolved. Post Frank Miller, I think more dimension has been added to Batman and allies. Partly due to Miller, but not soley. Other writers have added to Batman, to what he is now, making him all the better to read.

[Sugar Daddy]

Did this comic have a letters section? Mine didnt.

[James Harvey]

Simmer down folks. If you have an personnel issues, take it (and leave it) off the boards. This is a discussion about Batman #600 and if you have any problems with the poster, then take it up with the poster - don't air your problems on the boards.

Anyways, there was no letter column in my issue as well, but it's not uncommon. Usually on big anniversary issues, sometimes the letter pages will be taken out so an extra page or two of story can be squeezed in.

[Beyond Batman]

Jumping back on topic, I really enjoyed this read. I thought Dick brought up a good point about, "If Bruce Wayne is gone, then who's Dick's adopted father?..." or something like that. Interesting how Nightwing is the one defending Batman (with no doubt), yet Dick's the most hurt by Batman's decision.

[FLIPMODE]

This was a great Issue. Personally Im pissed at Batman, for ALWAYS leaving Nightwing out of the Loop. I know Batman has some hidden agenda. There is SOME fact about the murder that will be uncovered one day, But Bruce never Let's his most trusted alley know whats going on.

I feel sorry for Dick, and I can't see how he can take anymore of this humiliation. This may be the end of their relationship.

Perhaps Nightwing will lead the Bat Team, and All will look to him for wisdom.

I'd also like to move Nightwing up a Notch, on the top 10 fighters list. MANY times I've seen Batman allow one hit, but never 2. But Dick managed to pull it off. Honestly the line where Batman say's "You get ONE for free..."(referring to the punch), has been used SO many times through out Batman's history, that everyone knows what happens If the opponent tries to do it again...total punishment. So they set that scene up very intentionally to showcase that Nightwing, is up in the top 5. Because anyone that knows the fighting history of Batman,...your not supposed to be able to call shots on the Batman, unless your someone very special. And coming from anyone else, besides Batgirl and Shiva, Batman, would have been able to counter that punch. And judging by the proceeding fight between the two, Batman WOULD have countered the punch if he Could have. But NW was too quick. And did any notice Batman trying to Kick NW while he was down??

Also, would anyone here be upset if Batman was a CLONE? And it explains why Bruce could kill Vesper, and go rogue from the Bat Family? I dont think I'd be mad if that was the Story. Why? Because there was a recent issue of JLA, where all the Characters dual Identities were separated from their other half. So there was a Bruce Wayne, AND a Batman. These half I think were put back together by some kind of crazy rational. But What If the Bruce Wayne half, (who has Bruce's exact I.Q.) figured a Way to keep himself whole. This way there are 2 Bruce's on the planet. Infact he probably kidnapped the real Bruce, and is acting on impulses.

Batman Fugitive is very similar to Batman: EGO. It's basically the same Story.

[Tracer]

Originally posted by FLIPMODE
I'd also like to move Nightwing up a Notch, on the top 10 fighters list. MANY times I've seen Batman allow one hit, but never 2. But Dick managed to pull it off. ....

You know I am actually disappointed by the fight. Granted, I knew nightwing could not beat Batman, but Batman completely out classed him. To the point where he made him destoy the case with his (or Jason's) old suit was. I am pretty sure it was his since it was sitting next to batgirls suit and Jason's suit always sat alone. BTW nice way to prove a point.

Anyway, He could not lay a hand on him. He didn't even have to block (except once). Dick has dropped several levels on my scale. I really would have put them closer on the scale than that fight showed but, I guess it really shows who is the master!!

Over all an EXCELLENT ISSUE. I do hope they fill in the blanks of things that happened off screen (the escape, alfred's resons for helping him, etc...) Now I am looking forward to one more thing, Seeing the JLA's (more importantly, Superman's) reaction to this mess. Does anyone know when this will happen? This story will cascade into the JLA right?

[Sugar Daddy]

Originally posted by Tracer

This story will cascade into the JLA right? In JLA#62, Martian Manhunter mentioned Bruce being on trial, and that was it. He is not in the current storyline, which started in JLA#62, and ends in #64. I read in Wizard that JLA #65 has a Batman/Plasticman focus, so i guess not.