A lack of fantasy.

[Gokou Ruri]

Anyone else disheartened by the lack of serious, fantasy action shows? The last one I can recall is W.I.T.C.H. form 2004-2006. Before that, there was He-Man and the Masters of the Universe in 2002-2003.

So I'd say we're about do for another one in the next year or two... hopefully. Any of them in the works, or should we just keep our fingers crossed?

[MonkeyFunk]

Not really, since I can't think of many good ones.
Oh, and you missed out Avatar. I'm not sure if it really constitutes "serious", but since you mentioned WITCH...

[Blackstar]

You know, I hadn't really noticed a decline in serious fantasy programs, as swords & sorcery is a very niche market, so it's not as if there were a wide abundance of them around to begin with. Shows like Dungeons & Dragons, W.I.T.C.H. and Avatar are few between.

We're just in a sci-fi/action/superhero time right now.

[Gokou Ruri]

Oh, and you missed out Avatar. I'm not sure if it really constitutes "serious", but since you mentioned WITCH... Avatar is Asian folklore rather than traditional fantasy (though it does implore some fantasy elements) Okay show, but not my cup of tea.


We're just in a sci-fi/action/superhero time right now. Maybe that's how WITCH was made. They billed it as a superhero show, then pulled a fast one and made it focus on the fantasy world aspects rather than the standard superhero city setting. :sweat:

[Blackstar]

Maybe that's how WITCH was made. They billed it as a superhero show, then pulled a fast one and made it focus on the fantasy world aspects rather than the standard superhero city setting. :sweat:

That's quite possible. Toon Disney probably promoted it as typical Jetix fare because they didn't know any other way to promote it. Plus, what with W.I.T.C.H.'s having a predominantly female cast, the execs may have had that big fear that boys would dismiss it as being a "girly show" and not tune in.

[DawnWarrior]

That's quite possible. Toon Disney probably promoted it as typical Jetix fare because they didn't know any other way to promote it. Plus, what with W.I.T.C.H.'s having a predominantly female cast, the execs may have had that big fear that boys would dismiss it as being a "girly show" and not tune in.
Naturally, because only boys watch TV. Everyone knows that. Heaven forbid that any network would ever make/market a show directly to that tiny niche market of strange, exotic, little-known and less-understood creatures sometimes called "girls." :bubbles: :blossom: :bcup:

[Ed Liu]

Avatar is Asian folklore rather than traditional fantasy (though it does implore some fantasy elements) Okay show, but not my cup of tea.

Given this, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a "traditional fantasy" show. Other than the inspirations for the show, I don't see any serious difference between a show like Avatar and a show like He-Man or Dungeons and Dragons.

Do World of Quest or Jane and the Dragon count? I also haven't watched it, but it seems like Magi-Nation would count as a fantasy show as well.

-- Ed

[Gokou Ruri]

Naturally, because only boys watch TV. Everyone knows that. Heaven forbid that any network would ever make/market a show directly to that tiny niche market of strange, exotic, little-known and less-understood creatures sometimes called "girls." :bubbles: :blossom: :bcup: The show was geared towards both genders, even according to the people who wrote it (specifically Greg Weisman) the problem is you have people who automatically think "girl main character = girly show for girls only" despite the fact we have Powerpuff Girls and Kim Possible to prove them wrong.

Fantasy being a niche makes sense, I suppose. He-Man was apparently canceled due to low-toy sales (along with low ratings) so I suppose kids aren't into fantasy stuff these days.

[Beat]

Don't really care. These things ebb and flow in cycles. I don't need one genre of shows any more than I need another.

[Gokou Ruri]

Given this, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a "traditional fantasy" show. Other than the inspirations for the show, I don't see any serious difference between a show like Avatar and a show like He-Man or Dungeons and Dragons. Fantasy has a few different definitions depending on how you define it. It can be applied to any work that's make-believe, though most usually use it to define the sword and sorcery aspect in the vein of Lord of the Rings, Dungeons & Dragons, and the like. The kind that usually focus on a more Western approach with knights, kings, castles, magic, which Avatar doesn't. The "magic" in Avatar is fairly limiting, as opposed to say Evil Lyn in He-Man or Phobos/Nerissa in W.I.T.C.H., and depending who you talk to, magic is an important aspect of fantasy.

It can be classified as Asian Fantasy, I suppose, like samurais, ninjas, martial arts, stuff shows like Inuyasha or Dragonball focus on, but it's definately not in the same vein as the other two thematically. It's a bit more.. limiting than fantasy usually is, I guess I'd put it that way. The only "magic" is one of the four elements (technically three, since Aang is the only Airbender anymore) or they use a weapon of some kind. Where as traditional fantasy tends to lend to more creative uses of magic and creatures.


Do World of Quest or Jane and the Dragon count? I also haven't watched it, but it seems like Magi-Nation would count as a fantasy show as well. I haven't personally seen World of Quest, though it seems more of a comedy/slapstick action show (like Ying Yang Yo or El Tigre are) with a focus on fantasy than a serious action show. I've never even heard of Jane and the Dragon, and I thought Magi-Nation was a card-game show.

[MonkeyFunk]

It can be applied to any work that's make-believe, though most usually use it to define the sword and sorcery aspect in the vein of Lord of the Rings, Dungeons & Dragons, and the like. The kind that usually focus on a more Western approach with knights, kings, castles, magic, which Avatar doesn't.

Then you should really have said "a lack of sword and sorcery". The only people who use the term the way you describe are people who don't know very much about the genre.

[Gokou Ruri]

Then you should really have said "a lack of sword and sorcery". The only people who use the term the way you describe are people who don't know very much about the genre. Sword and Sorcery is an even trickier subgenre to define, it certainly wouldn't be He-Man or W.I.T.C.H. going by the textbook definition. The word "fantasy" these days have come to be used by most to describe the works of fiction that focus on European-esque magic, knights, and mythical creatures. Afterall, who are we to argue with Tolkien and Gygax?

[AlgeaX]

Sword and Sorcery is an even trickier subgenre to define, it certainly wouldn't be He-Man or W.I.T.C.H. going by the textbook definition. The word "fantasy" these days have come to be used by most to describe the works of fiction that focus on European-esque magic, knights, and mythical creatures. Afterall, who are we to argue with Tolkien and Gygax?

I don't see why fantasy should be confined to the mold established by Tolkien any more then all sci-fi should be like Star Trek. I dare say one of the banes of fantasy litireature over the past fifty years is all the wannabes like Eragon trying to ape Lord of The Rings rather then doing something that would require original thought.

[Gokou Ruri]

I don't see why fantasy should be confined to the mold established by Tolkien any more then all sci-fi should be like Star Trek. I dare say one of the banes of fantasy litireature over the past fifty years is all the wannabes like Eragon trying to ape Lord of The Rings rather then doing something that would require original thought. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying shows can't do anything different, just the word tends to be associated with one thing these days, mainly due to Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons (video games in general, really) and their massive popularity. There's a lot of subgenres of fantasy, but usually the term is used in the context of swords, kings, magic, creatures, and so forth.

So let's all just avoid the debate and I'll clarify that that's what the topic is about.

[Justy]

I haven't personally seen World of Quest, though it seems more of a comedy/slapstick action show (like Ying Yang Yo or El Tigre are) with a focus on fantasy than a serious action show. I've never even heard of Jane and the Dragon, and I thought Magi-Nation was a card-game show.
You're pretty much dead on about World of Quest. It had some moments when some of the main characters were being introduced, but got a bit boring to me as it went on. Jane and the Dragon is part of the qubo block on the ION and NBC networks. It's a CG show and, though aimed for children, is fairly entertaining and pleasing to look at. Magi-Nation, though based on a card game, is set in an alternate universe and is traditionally animated. Card games are NOT part of the story (thank God) and it is a pretty straight fantasy show (read not overly funny) featuring creatures the humanoid characters can summon from a dream plane to help them fight their enemies. Though intended for young children (including educational explanations of scientific things), I found it to be unexpectedly entertaining. Hopefully, 4kids will air another season in the fall.

[Gokou Ruri]

You're pretty much dead on about World of Quest. It had some moments when some of the main characters were being introduced, but got a bit boring to me as it went on. Jane and the Dragon is part of the qubo block on the ION and NBC networks. It's a CG show and, though aimed for children, is fairly entertaining and pleaseing to look at. Magi-Nation, though based on a card game, is set in an alternate universe and is traditional animated. Card games are NOT part of the story (thank God) and it is a pretty straight fantasy show (read not overly funny) featuring creatures the humanoid characters can summon from a dream plain to help them fight their enemies. Though intended for young children (including educational explanations of scientific things), I thought it to be unexpectedly entertaining. Hopefully, 4kids will air another season in the fall. Magi-Nation seems interesting enough, I'll have to catch an episode or two to try it out. As long as it's got a nicely developing story, then it's fine.

[Justy]

Magi-Nation seems interesting enough, I'll have to catch an episode or two to try it out. As long as it's got a nicely developing story, then it's fine.
It does have a story (the three main characters travel around the realm they're in searching for moonstones), but it's in its second airing about 10 or so eps in. Don't expect any real character development but there are some nice moments and I really like the art myself. Hope you like it.

[Kagetsu]

That's quite possible. Toon Disney probably promoted it as typical Jetix fare because they didn't know any other way to promote it. Plus, what with W.I.T.C.H.'s having a predominantly female cast, the execs may have had that big fear that boys would dismiss it as being a "girly show" and not tune in.


Naturally, because only boys watch TV. Everyone knows that. Heaven forbid that any network would ever make/market a show directly to that tiny niche market of strange, exotic, little-known and less-understood creatures sometimes called "girls." :bubbles: :blossom: :bcup:Wow, Dawn, I'll bet we could have some detailed discussions on this because I believe both thoughts are right. I believe Disney added Caleb and Blunk to the original WITCH story just to appeal to boys. In the beginning, Molly star racer was in serious danger of being changed to a male lead character because it was what the larger animation producers wanted before they would finance the show for broadcast. I can't think of a show I bother with that doesn't at least have a serious female support character. To sell a story centric show to US networks is hard. Add a female lead and you may as well market to Europe and Canada only.
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/sakurabanners/shows/Quest1.jpghttp://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/sakurabanners/shows/JaneDragon.jpg
neither Quest or Jane & the Dragon, both favorites for me really aren't what I'd call fantasy. They are close, but more along the lines of fantasy parody. US tv doesn't have a strong mythos to draw from. Writing from scratch isn't their strong suit either. Most good fantasy is complex, violent with a bit of theology mixed in. All things tv writers shy away from. I've yet to see a good show that has any idea that magic is anything other than psychokinesis. move to Asian shows with a basis in Shinto. You see a balance to maintained between good and evil. The struggle is there, both have power but neither can be dominate. There is also a strong basis in elemental magic and seals.

[Gokou Ruri]

US tv doesn't have a strong mythos to draw from. Writing from scratch isn't their strong suit either. Most good fantasy is complex, violent with a bit of theology mixed in. All things tv writers shy away from. I've yet to see a good show that has any idea that magic is anything other than psychokinesis. move to Asian shows with a basis in Shinto. You see a balance to maintained between good and evil. The struggle is there, both have power but neither can be dominate. There is also a strong basis in elemental magic and seals. I thought W.I.T.C.H. possessed an excellent magic system. There were checks and balances, i.e. rules and regulations that magic had to follow. Very remeniscent of works like Earthsea, D&D, and Tolkien. Stuff like giving life to inanimate objects required you to give up part of your own life (sacrificing a body part, or giving up a portion of your lifespan, stuff like that) and magic "vows" which could not be broken unless a loophole was found, or the maker of the vow was killed. Plus the whole "every planet possesses a source of its magical power" and the fact powerful sources of magic could not be taken by force, but given up willingly, and all the magical talismans and artifacts.

Very refreshing from the usual "magic is just different colored energy beams" a lot of shows seem to use.

[Lavenderpaw]

Avatar is Asian folklore rather than traditional fantasy (though it does implore some fantasy elements) Okay show, but not my cup of tea.

Maybe that's how WITCH was made. They billed it as a superhero show, then pulled a fast one and made it focus on the fantasy world aspects rather than the standard superhero city setting. :sweat:

Fantasy is fantasy,bub.

Bub (for any of you picky mods out there) means:Used as a term of familiar address, especially for a man or boy: See you around, bub.

Fantasy to me is made up people in a made up place doing made up things that are similiar.Some have move action in them then others,so maybe you mean a serious decline in action.Fantasy is animation in general.

[Starbro]

I believe Disney added Caleb and Blunk to the original WITCH story just to appeal to boys.

Blunk was indeed created for television, though I think it was more for comic relief than boy appeal. Caleb, however, was not a TV-exclusive character; he existed in the books as well.

[kid rabbit]

back in th 80's there were great verity of fantasy shows
smurfs
thunder cats
gummie bear
dungens and dragons
to name a few
got me nostelgic

[Kagetsu]

I thought W.I.T.C.H. possessed an excellent magic system. There were checks and balances, i.e. rules and regulations that magic had to follow. Very remeniscent of works like Earthsea, D&D, and Tolkien. Stuff like giving life to inanimate objects required you to give up part of your own life (sacrificing a body part, or giving up a portion of your lifespan, stuff like that) and magic "vows" which could not be broken unless a loophole was found, or the maker of the vow was killed. Plus the whole "every planet possesses a source of its magical power" and the fact powerful sources of magic could not be taken by force, but given up willingly, and all the magical talismans and artifacts.

Very refreshing from the usual "magic is just different colored energy beams" a lot of shows seem to use.I'm still a newbie for D&D, though Tolkien is my standard even though I could only just follow the Silmarillion. WITCH is to me, elemental chi magic. It's great, but only level one magic. Though it works very good in the show and is a favorite show. Elemental casting, mind illusions, Golom conjuring, Other plain summoning of spirits(almost as dangerous to the summoner as the target), universal manipulation (that's when energy circles must be used). These are the levels I look for.

The one thing most important for magic that most ignore,,, the more persons that concentrate on the purpose, the stronger the power released.

[Gokou Ruri]

I'm still a newbie for D&D, though Tolkien is my standard even though I could only just follow the Silmarillion. WITCH is to me, elemental chi magic. It's great, but only level one magic. Though it works very good in the show and is a favorite show. Elemental casting, mind illusions, Golom conjuring, Other plain summoning of spirits(almost as dangerous to the summoner as the target), universal manipulation (that's when energy circles must be used). These are the levels I look for.

The one thing most important for magic that most ignore,,, the more persons that concentrate on the purpose, the stronger the power released. Only the Guardians use the elemental magic, there's other characters who do all those kinds of things you mentioned.

[Beat]

I still think the popularity of genres and types of storytelling are all cyclic. You want to see good fantasy toons and TV? Wait about 3-5 years. I know, I know, it doesn't sound like the best advice, but it's the best I can offer.

[Kagetsu]

I still think the popularity of genres and types of storytelling are all cyclic. You want to see good fantasy toons and TV? Wait about 3-5 years. I know, I know, it doesn't sound like the best advice, but it's the best I can offer.The cyclical nature of animation is often what annoys me. "This is popular, let's make everything look like it". The current era we have now,,, except for a few shows like AvatarTLA. Was it the 80's or 90's,,,, I loose track, that everything was was teens solving mysteries during a race, or had dinosaurs, or worst,,, D&D was popular, let's make a meaningless show that proves social justice and has magic,,, which they didn't have a clue about.

[MonkeyFunk]

The cyclical nature of animation is often what annoys me. "This is popular, let's make everything look like it". The current era we have now,,, except for a few shows like AvatarTLA. Was it the 80's or 90's,,,, I loose track, that everything was was teens solving mysteries during a race, or had dinosaurs, or worst,,, D&D was popular, let's make a meaningless show that proves social justice and has magic,,, which they didn't have a clue about.

That's a problem with Hollywood as a whole. Only one thing for it: to the independant sector!