Holding Back (on purpose!)

[Squall]

I noticed that a lot of people don't like the fact that Superman holds back when using his powers in battle. I think he does this on purpose. Perhaps since the S:TAS days he's gotten used to using his powers on a regular basis (remember, he wasn't even Superman before "The Last Son of Krypton"!), and holds back as a result? Remember, Superman finally noticed the true potential of his power when he got REALLY ticked off and went on a rampage in "Legacy." Then Supergirl basically told him he'd better start holding back, or he'd end up as bad as Darkseid... I think he took that lesson to heart.

For example, you could tell at the beginning of the fight that Superman didn't want to hurt Draaga. However, when he realized that Draaga could give him a run for his money, he finally let loose (a little) and took him out fairly quickly.

And as for the complaints that most of the Superman vs. Draaga fight involved throwing rocks at each other. What else was there on War World to throw at each other? And the reason that most of those 'rocks' broke off as cubes is because War World was once a populated area... Superman and Draaga were fighting in the ruins of a deserted city! Those weren't just rocks, they were walls from bulidings.

Martian Manhunter's reaction to Mongul saying "Then destroy him!" was pretty amusing, but understandable. Both he and Wonder Woman haven't been in the JL for long; they don't yet know Superman's potential power. They both know he's the brute force of the team, of course, but somehow I doubt that Batman has given them a briefing on Krytonite, magic, and getting him away from a yellow sun for a while. So, I would like to think that Martian Manhunter really wasn't sure that Mongul couldn't have Superman destroyed... As a contrast, I could imagine Batman in that arena with a "Yeah, whatever" look on his face when Mongul gave that order :D

Finally, about the robots... nobody said that these robots were just shooting plain old lasers! They could be shooting powerful particle beam weapons. And, Superman withstood direct Omega blasts from Darkseid in "Legacy" because Sueprman was ticked off and running at full power (which takes a lot of concentration, mind you) and off adrenaline. Does anyone remember when Darkseid shot Superman with those same Omega beams in "Apokolips... Now!" ? Superman was really tired... he had just prevented a burn hole from erupting on Earth, you know. :) Those same Omega beams took Superman out pretty quickly. Besides, the two times the robots' laser-like weapons knocked Superman out (at the beginning and the end of "War World", Part I), Superman was injured (at the beginning, and through the whole episode, now that I think about it), and tired (after the fight with Draaga). Everyone should remember that Superman is powerful, but not the Engergizer Bunny! :) Using that power he has takes a lot out of him, and he's more vulnerable when he's tired, injured, or exhausted, just like the rest of us. And, like I said, using that power takes a lot of concentration too! I bet those same robots would have decimated a regular Human (or any other regular alien species) with their weapons like a phaser blast on full-power in "Star Trek" if they shot one. :)

OK, that's my opinion, and my thought patterns, on why I don't have a problem with Superman in general on JL, or with any of the plot points that people have complained about in "War World", Part I...

"Typical." -- Hawkgirl

"Big surprise." -- Batman

"Your problem, not mine." -- Aquaman

[Squall]

I almost forgot to mention my thought about the scene when Superman frees himself and leaves the prison! Some people complained that Superman didn't release the other prisoners when he left. Well, neither would I. Superman didn't yet know where he was, or what was going on. For all he knew, these prisoners were all homicidal psychopaths with power comparable to his own, and releasing them would have caused BIG trouble. I think he was thinking, "This must be a BIG misunderstanding," at that point.

And the reason Martian Manhunter was near the croc pit is because the prison runners thought he WAS dead, and all the dead warriors are fed to the croc.

I think I've successfully explained away all the complaints from "War World", Part I! :D At least, until the replies start getting added, anyway... :)

[Bird Boy]

wow..you're right! I completely forgot about Legacy and stuff..

and Bruce Timm even said somewhere that Legacy was pertaining to JL because in Secret Origins, Pt1, it was the reason nobody was willing to trust Superman...

-BB

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

You know, Squall, just when I'm all set to post a big long thing about the Superman/Draaga fight, you go and post almost exactly everything I'm going to say. So, now, all I got left is to say, "Uh, what he said." =8^). I would add that (at least in the comics), Superman can be pretty seriously knocked for a loop by an Apokolips (sp?) Mega-Rod, although it'd take some serious time to really hurt him. I consider the 'bots to have laser beams of that strength on them.

The only quibble I have with the points you raise is the whole Superman/slaves thing. I don't have a problem with that he didn't free them -- my problem was that he didn't even ask. "Where am I?" or "What are you all doing here?" wouldn't have been out of line, IMO.

-- Ed/Ace

[Joe Wagner]

I think this all has to do with being more concerned about J'onn than the prisioners. I mean for all he knew J'onn was in danger and could die. If Supes hadn't left when he did, J'onn would have been croc bait fairly quickly. I'm more surprised that he didn't go back but then again it's a lot easier to make a run at a prision if a) you have a lot of people with you (like the league) and b) if everyone is healthy (whcih J'onn wasn't and I think explains his power weakness, he wasn't 100% and therefore his powers wouldn't be either). Just my two cents.

-Joe!

[Karkull]

Originally posted by Squall
I noticed that a lot of people don't like the fact that Superman holds back when using his powers in battle. I think he does this on purpose. Perhaps since the S:TAS days he's gotten used to using his powers on a regular basis (remember, he wasn't even Superman before "The Last Son of Krypton"!), and holds back as a result? Remember, Superman finally noticed the true potential of his power when he got REALLY ticked off and went on a rampage in "Legacy." Then Supergirl basically told him he'd better start holding back, or he'd end up as bad as Darkseid... I think he took that lesson to heart.

Maybe you're right, but he needs to break out of that mindset pretty quickly. The villains he fight will kill him, and I sincerely doubt that he'd end up like Darkseid anyway.

[The Green Hornet]

while some of your points are good, you fail to address some key issues

why doesnt he use his super-speed more? what about COLD BREATH or thunderclap

there were a TON of things he could have done to stun/disable dragaa but instead he takes it?

superman may be holding back but hes not gonna just let someone pound on him out of some stupid principled objection

the real problem is that the writers have superman as SOOOOOOO one dimensional on the show-- he hits and gets hit

someone needs to watch STAS and remember that Superman CAN be a one-man league

i certainly hope he cuts lose against Mongul-- i pray he does actually

[Joe Wagner]

The only thing I can think of is that Superman could have been possibly still dazed during the fight scene and not thought to use his super speed. Then again sometimes in the heat of battle you don't always use all of your weapons becuz you get caught up in the moment. Using retrospect tho then you think "Oh next time I should use super speed, etc...."

-Joe!

[The Green Hornet]

but hes ALWAYS fighting people

and its not like his powers come from an external source-- they are a part of him and his everyday life!

[Joe Wagner]

True, but haven't there been times when you were playing a game, say football, and after you've been smashed a couple of times while running with the ball you realize next time you should go right instead of left, or you should try running faster? (I don't know this might not work - just a general analogy to show sometimes we don't think when we are in physical activity, no matter how much talent we have).

I just thought of something else, what if he didn't move at first to kind of frighten Draaga, sometimes people are all lot more intimidated when something they think will hurt you has no effect. They often have to reconsider whether or not to take you on. Plus Supes had even said that he didn't want to fight.

-Joe!

[Maxie Zeus]

Funny, I was going to make a new post today talking about the JL Superman. But this is the natural place to stick it in anyway, since squall (very nicely) makes the very points I was going to argue against. Anyway:

There's a lot of dissatisfaction about the way JL is handling its Superman. He's wimpy; he's whiny; he's depowered; and Newburn doesn't give him any oomph or edge.

Taken one at a time, there reasonably good answers to each of these complaints. Superman isn't wimpy, he just doesn't fight back if he can possibly avoid it. He's depowered so that there's some drama to the fights and so that the other heroes become useful and necessary. And Newburn will grow into the role -- if you put Tim Daly out of your head and let him grow into it.

As I say, reasonably good answers if you take them one at a time. But they don't address the way the complaints work as a critique if you put them all together. Here's what I mean.

The Superman we get on JL is plainly loathe to fight. But it's more than that. He looks positively desperate to avoid any kind of physical encounter. He is constantly apologizing, constantly turning away, constantly negotiating and pleading and looking for a way to avoid coming to blows with an adversary.

Surely this is an admirable attitude, but it's one not enhanced by the voice and line work. Newburn never quite whines, but he tends to sound anxious when the bad guys come knocking. Those lines on Superman's face may be meant to suggest age or wear, but in conjunction with the dialogue and voice work they look like the worry lines of indecision. The overall result is a Superman who looks like he suffers from a crisis of self-confidence.

squall mentions "Legacy," and it's hard not to think that JL's Superman has been designed with that episode in mind. squall says that Superman is purposely holding his powers in check, for fear that if he uses them he will hurt people again, or turn into something like Darkseid. Psychologically, that is quite sound. But it's a turn in the character that damages him in our sympathies.

What makes Superman super? It's not just his "super" powers, or his rectitude in using them. A lot of it is his self-confidence. This is a person who can be trusted to do the right thing, and moreover trusts himself to do the right thing. He is super, in part, because he will not hesitate to act when he sees the need. (If Superman endlessly held back, dithering over whether he was about to use his powers for good or ill, lots of bad things could happen in the meantime.) To be trustworthy you have to trust yourself, otherwise there is no guarantee that you will actually act when circumstances demand.

In JL's post-"Legacy" stories, it sure feels as though Superman doesn't trust himself. It explains why he comes off as weak and passive: If he's worried about doing harm, then he will hang back and try to avoid the fight. It explains why he seems desperate to settle all fights before they start: Because then he won't have to use his super abilities.

And it explains why he seems "wimpy." Think about it: Here's a muscle-bound boyscout who loudly proclaims his devotion to truth and justice, but will do anything to avoid a fight. He's bully-fodder. The bad guy is tempted to whomp on his ass, in the justified hope that Supes won't fight back, and so in one stroke could humiliate a superhero and demonstrate the superiority of vice to virtue. Supes might as well pin a "Kick Me" sign to the back of his cape.

When the bad guys show up, I'm constantly expecting Supes to start wringing his hands, to start pleading "I'm a nice feller, guys. Why don't you leave me alone? I don't want to fight you. Can't we all just get along?" That he seems to act this way (even without doing so directly) because he seems to think he's pleading from a position of strength -- don't make me hurt you -- rather than weakness, doesn't make the spectacle any more appetizing.

This is Superman as impersonated by Jack Lemmon. Anyone who's seen that old worrywart, dithering about his conscience and twisting his collar in indecision, will recognize that it's not high praise.

[The Dark Knight]

Considering that the JL writers have failed to make any mention of "Legacy", or how Superman is working to make things right again, stating that his lack of power is due to him holding back because of what happened in "Legacy" is simply unfounded speculation. The fact is that it's easy to challenge Superman, but to challenge all the members of the JL is a difficult task, so they weaken Superman, and the other members of the JL at times, to even things out. So far Superman could easily have defeated any villain they have come up against. Hades could have been a problem, but considering the way he was defeated I see no reason why Superman could not have done the same. So far I am unconvinced that his weakness in the show is due to him "holding back".

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by The Dark Knight
Considering that the JL writers have failed to make any mention of "Legacy", or how Superman is working to make things right again, stating that his lack of power is due to him holding back because of what happened in "Legacy" is simply unfounded speculation.

There is a reference in "Secret Origins" where Supermans says early on that he has worked hard to earn back the world's trust. That is taken by many as a veiled reference to the events of "Legacy."

[JL4Ever]

Originally posted by The Dark Knight
Considering that the JL writers have failed to make any mention of "Legacy", or how Superman is working to make things right again, stating that his lack of power is due to him holding back because of what happened in "Legacy" is simply unfounded speculation. The fact is that it's easy to challenge Superman, but to challenge all the members of the JL is a difficult task, so they weaken Superman, and the other members of the JL at times, to even things out. So far Superman could easily have defeated any villain they have come up against. Hades could have been a problem, but considering the way he was defeated I see no reason why Superman could not have done the same. So far I am unconvinced that his weakness in the show is due to him "holding back".

Actually it's not "unfounded speculation" based on an interview Bruce Timm did with Toonzone several months ago. Timm said that he wants JL to continue from S:TAS, and there was actually a direct reference to "Legacy" in "Secret Origins" that was taken out so that non-S:TAS fans wouldn't be confused. Timm has also said that "Legacy" will be addressed. I think Supoerman's reactions will be explained the way Squall and others detailed as Timm himself said he plans to reference "Legacy" and is probably laying the ground work by developing Superman in this fashion.

[The Green Hornet]

heres the question-- when superman and darkseid go toe to toe again in season 2 will supes still be holding back? or will he give EVERYthing he has since he knows he can only beat him to a standstill

[The Dark Knight]

Originally posted by TheFastestManAlive
heres the question-- when superman and darkseid go toe to toe again in season 2 will supes still be holding back? or will he give EVERYthing he has since he knows he can only beat him to a standstill
He won the fight in "Legacy", so I assume they'll hold him back just so the rest of the JL will have something to do. We'll probably have a pretty good idea of how strong Superman will be allowed to get in JL after seeing his fight with Mongul.

[BLACKHEART]

If Superman didn't hold back his powers would destroy the Earth. He's a powerful being and look at the battle with the General and his hood rat girl did to Metropolis.

[Borg4of3]

Its too bad we have to wait for Season 2, supposedly, for a more direct revelation about the post-Legacy events. This episode would be the perfect place to have Superman explain what has become of him. I can picture J'onn meeting with him in Part 2 after Supes being recaptured and demanding that he fight to free all the slaves, only to have Superman retelling the Legacy story to explain, to J'onn's disatisfaction. When it came down to fight Mongul, he'd still hold back, but find another way to beat him, through Mongul's achilles heel, diplomacy :rolleyes:, building a revolution among the slaves, etc. , - and thus justifying his stance against unbelievable power, as well as finally curing him of the lack of self-trust that Maxie explained.

My stance on this subject is that squall and Maxie both are completely right. I think your character analysis' of the pros and cons of the post-Legacy Superman are right on the mark. I simply believe that the writers thusfar have not been able to truly engage those points. This 'holding back' thing could become both Superman's greatest character weakness as well as a great strength. That idea has a great amount of potential. But its placed in a show where 3 robots can take down Superman (tired or no, thats still a no no). So, in this 2D world filled with 2D characters, the true analysis of JL Superman is simply: wimpy. :(

[Clayface]

Originally posted by SLIPKNOT
If Superman didn't hold back his powers would destroy the Earth.

Hmmm. So he couldn't use his super-speed to stop Deadpool in the Aquaman episode because if he did it would destroy the world? :rolleyes:

Face it, they're not using the members to their full potential, because, as has been pointed out, each member could have taken on each of these villians by themselves successfully.

[Harvey Dent]

So he's holding back because of what happened during "Legacy". That still doesn't explain why he's getting his rear-end handed to him in just about every episode. I would think that holding back would allow him to conserve more energy, making him stronger from a defensive standpoint, yet he's still getting knocked around like a damn volleyball. Just doesn't make any sense to me.

[The Dark Knight]

Originally posted by JL4Ever


Actually it's not "unfounded speculation" based on an interview Bruce Timm did with Toonzone several months ago. Timm said that he wants JL to continue from S:TAS, and there was actually a direct reference to "Legacy" in "Secret Origins" that was taken out so that non-S:TAS fans wouldn't be confused. Timm has also said that "Legacy" will be addressed. I think Supoerman's reactions will be explained the way Squall and others detailed as Timm himself said he plans to reference "Legacy" and is probably laying the ground work by developing Superman in this fashion.
Well, I call it unfounded speculation simply because it's not really dealt with in the show. Bruce Timm talked about it, but that doesn't mean they have made direct mention of it in the show. They did make a reference to it in "Secret Origins", but since they failed to explain any further I don't really take that as a reason for him being weaker. He worked hard to win back the world's trust, but he makes no mention of the fact that he doesn't trust himself enough to use his own powers, and this isn't an issue I wish to infer from vague lines of dialogue on the subject. I'm not saying he isn't holding back because of "Legacy", but if he is then the writers have failed to bring it to the attention of the audience.

[BLACKHEART]

Maybe Superman is just tired and need a vacation?

[Squall]

"Maxie Zeus", you make some great points, which should be considered in whole with my arguements when the JL writers are writing Superman and his actions, but I still go with my analysis on how the JL writers are thinking through what they're doing with Superman. :D

It was asked, "Why didn't Superman use his super-speed to catch Deadshot when he was driving that truck through Metropolis?" Well, maybe he didn't want to. Deadshot was an easy crook to catch for Superman (once he knew where Deadshot was, that is), so he could have used any number of methods to stop that truck and get Deadshot out. Why bother to use super-speed when you can just blow out a tire from a distance using heat vision?

I think that, as Season 2 and beyond beckons and the post-"Legacy" plotline comes into focus, we'll see what I mean about Superman holding back on purpose. Everyone's right, he's scared he'll go berserk and overkill again, and for him that's a character flaw. Since "Legacy", he has switched to the "Don't make me hurt you" approach -- which doesn't work for him. I think that Superman will grow comfortable again with his powers as JL progresses, and he'll likely make a mistake in a future JL episode that will help the villians, and when the other JL members get on his case for that (my bets are that it'll probably be Green Lantern or Hawkgirl), then the old pre-Superman we all love will start to come back. (There will probably be a "Legacy" flashback involved in that episode too, heehee ;).) Heck, it might even BE the first Darkseid JL episode!!

I think this character flaw exists on purpose, because (1) it keeps Superman from being the "perfect" super-hero; (2) this allows for character development for Superman on JL; and (3) it allows the JL writers to more directly link JL to B:TAS and S:TAS.

I think that Superman will let loose on Mongul in "War World", Part II, but not to the level he let loose on Darkseid in "Legacy", Part II. Now, when Superman faces Darkseid again, he'll probably go all out again. Superman has been learning the hard way (in the fights against Hades and Draaga, for example) that holding back doesn't help him win, especially against opponents that can kill him, so he's been getting better progressively as JL progresses. Give it time! :D

By the way, why are any robots beating up on Superman and/or knocking Superman out "a big no-no"? Superman got beat up pretty bad by the largest of Luthor's robots in "World's Finest", Part III (the one he fought by himself after he and Batman rescued Mercy Graves from the robot before it), but no one seemed to complain at the time. And Mongul rules an entire multi-species planet with access to technology more advanced than that available on Earth, so if Luthor can design and build robots that can beat up Superman (Kryptonite or not), why can't Mongul???

[Karkull]

Okay...I could deal with Superman's current condition if it's anything like you've all discussed. Maybe he's holding back because he's afraid he might lose control like in Legacy. Maybe he's experiencing some kind of crisis of faith right now. Maybe he's tired and is slacking off by having six others around to pick up the slack for him. Maybe he's been broken by losing Lois Lane from his life [maybe, but prove otherwise].

Batman and Superman have been going at this the longest (from our perspective), but whereas Batman has trained himself to be a demigod, Superman has conditioned himself to be a man. And men bleed whether they're super or not. The events of Legacy must have put him into depression and, for all we know, he's Superman all the time now. That's got to take a toll on a person's spirit.

I could deal with his current condition, but I'd like to see it actually addressed in the show.

[JL4Ever]

Originally posted by The Dark Knight

Well, I call it unfounded speculation simply because it's not really dealt with in the show. Bruce Timm talked about it, but that doesn't mean they have made direct mention of it in the show. They did make a reference to it in "Secret Origins", but since they failed to explain any further I don't really take that as a reason for him being weaker. He worked hard to win back the world's trust, but he makes no mention of the fact that he doesn't trust himself enough to use his own powers, and this isn't an issue I wish to infer from vague lines of dialogue on the subject. I'm not saying he isn't holding back because of "Legacy", but if he is then the writers have failed to bring it to the attention of the audience.

As I said earlier, Timm said "Legacy" would be addressed. It was minimally in "Secret Origins" and more is to come so it's not "unfounded" until when find out exactly what he means.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Squall

It was asked, "Why didn't Superman use his super-speed to catch Deadshot when he was driving that truck through Metropolis?" Well, maybe he didn't want to. Deadshot was an easy crook to catch for Superman (once he knew where Deadshot was, that is), so he could have used any number of methods to stop that truck and get Deadshot out. Why bother to use super-speed when you can just blow out a tire from a distance using heat vision?


Riiiiiiiiiight.

I mean, why would Superman stop stop Deadpool when he's running away? It makes sooo much mroe sense to let Diana destroy public property to try and stop him. It makes so much more sense to blow out the guy's tire and possibly have his truck go careening off into crowds of innocents. It makes so much more sense to play games with the guy, rather than just fly in and pick him up by his collar before he can do more damage.

And of course, we wouldn't want MM to stop him with his phasing ability either - that wouldn't make any sense, would it? :rolleyes:

The writers just wanted more action, and a role for each character - thus, they purposefully or inadvertantly, misused or underused characters' powers. This is just one example of many. We've seen it n basically every episode so far. We've been discussing Supes only in this thread, but the fact is, all the character have gotten this sort of treatment in the series.

[BLACKHEART]

Has anyone took into consideration his new wimpy voice? Maybe the man of steel had an accident. The same accident that causes him to reach higher notes may infact be the reason he's such a "kitty" now.

[Borg4of3]

Originally posted by Squall

By the way, why are any robots beating up on Superman and/or knocking Superman out "a big no-no"? Superman got beat up pretty bad by the largest of Luthor's robots in "World's Finest", Part III (the one he fought by himself after he and Batman rescued Mercy Graves from the robot before it), but no one seemed to complain at the time. And Mongul rules an entire multi-species planet with access to technology more advanced than that available on Earth, so if Luthor can design and build robots that can beat up Superman (Kryptonite or not), why can't Mongul???

Okay, I'll concede that Mongul apparently had Star Trek-like technology (even had the transporters!), but I guess I just thought after finally seeing Superman let loose (a little), its disappointing and anticlimactic to see Superman taken down so... quickly. While we know appearances can be deceiving, its simply good showmanship when special effects mimick plot effects. If those robots fired beams that made him fall asleep, or could vaporize tritanium... we should be able to see and know that, not simply speculate. But, yah, I agree that Mongul shows he has technology capable of taking down Superman and even giving even Darkseid maybe a run for his money. And of course, I also agree that Superman is holding back, so I concede on this.

As for the no-no, I personally hate fights against inanimate objects with no soul, no character, etc. Usually, when a superhero and a supervillain fight, its the quintessence of their values, beliefs, and morals really dueling it out. Against Luthor's pure evil or Metallo's unlimited vengence, Superman always comes on top, showing that truth, justice, etc. always prevail (or at least should). Then he deals with a hunk of metal that beats him down flat. Realistic? Maybe. Disappointing? Yes. Thematic? No. Oh, and even that huge robot from World's Finest had some character, being the birthchild of Luthor's evil(taking beneficial Wayne technology and perverting it to an evil weapon), enhanced with technology that gave Batman a run for his money for nearly an entire episode. And that was just peaches compared to the massive, super, very frightening LuthorBot DX Superman was forced to deal with at the end.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by SLIPKNOT
Has anyone took into consideration his new wimpy voice? Maybe the man of steel had an accident. The same accident that causes him to reach higher notes may infact be the reason he's such a "kitty" now.


LOL!

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Squall
"Maxie Zeus", you make some great points, which should be considered in whole with my arguements when the JL writers are writing Superman and his actions, but I still go with my analysis on how the JL writers are thinking through what they're doing with Superman. :D

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you and I are not so far apart on substance, just on emphasis.

Look at it this way: I say, "Superman looks weak, demoralized and bullied; and that's a bad thing." To paraphrase, you seem to reply "Yes. After 'Legacy' he would be weak, demoralized and bullied, and that's not a good thing, and maybe in a future episode he'll get his self-confidence back." That is, we seem to agree on fundamentals -- how Superman comes across, and that it is not a good thing, and that there is a potential explanation for it -- and only disagree on whether that should be taken as reflecting badly on the show. You seem to suggest that Superman could hardly be treated otherwise after 'Legacy,' and hold out the hope that he will recover. I'm not quite so sanguine, on both counts.

First, even granting your diagnosis of why Supes is acting so craven, I'm not sure it was a wise move for JL to undertake. That's a very subtle character analysis, and one that relies heavily on knowledge of what happened at the end of STAS. But Timm and Co. knew that they couldn't rely on the viewers to make the connection; at least, that's why I understand they toned down the reference reference to 'Legacy' in 'Secret Origins.' Moreover, JL is not a character-driven show, but seems to be an action show, and an attention to those nuances of history and psychological detail would seem to be out of place in JL, if for no other reason than because they tend to get trampled underfoot in the rush toward the battle sequences.

Note: I'm not saying there should not be this kind of attention to character in JL, only that the show as conceived does not seem able to give it the room and scope it needs.

Secondly, I'm not sure that Supes needed to be developed in this direction, even if you wanted to take 'Legacy' into account. That's the subject for another and longer post; I'll just say here that part of my dissatisfaction with Supes' treatment in JL, and with your analysis of it, stems from the feeling that matters didn't have to be set up this way.

[Harvey Dent]

Another argument I've been reading about deals with the fact that Bruce Timm and Co. don't want to bog down new fans with all the stuff from previous shows? Why? Justice League is on Cartoon Network. BTAS and STAS are also on Cartoon Network. If people don't know what's going on, why not simply play an episode of STAS immediately after JL so that new people won't get lost. Think about it:

"Secret Origins" (all 3 parts) plays. After that, CN shows both parts of "Legacy". People who are new to the DC Animated Universe watch "Secret Origins", then "Legacy", and say, "Oh, THAT'S why Superman is acting the way he is" or "THAT'S why the general doesn't trust him with this or that". Confusion is eliminated, and everyone is happy.

[The Green Hornet]

harvey-- good idea but it will never happen-- why?

BECAUSE IT MAKES TOO MUCH SENSE =))

[Squall]

"Harvey Dent", that's a great idea and one I've had as well! I think that, personally, they should put JL on Toonami, then play JL, Batman, Superman, and Batman Beyond as a "package" on Toonami (like from 10:00 pm - 12:00 midnight on weekdays on Cartoon Network?). Then people could watch JL, then see immediately after that Batman and Superman every night. They could still play new episodes of JL on Sunday nights, and have Toonami air the rerurns on weekday nights on Toonami.

It would also make all four TV shows easier to record on VHS tape off your VCR. :D

"Maxie Zeus", both of our analyses of Superman are perfect, so you're exactly right about how we see the same thing differently. I am confident though that "Legacy" and other issues carrying over from Batman & Superman will be gotten into in Season 2 and beyond. You made me wonder though... do the "regular" JL viewers (those who never watched Batman & Superman) also view Superman as weak, or do they not even notice? Are we 'fanboys' the only ones who noticed this?

And who knows? Maybe "Injustice For All" is where we'll see Superman make his first big mistake that actually helps the bad guys, which will result in Green Lantern and/or Hawkgirl getting on his case about holding back, which may result in some dialog about "Legacy". But I'm still thinking it'll be Part I of the Darkseid episode(s) next season... :)

[BLACKHEART]

It would be better to show the episodes before the JL cartoon. That way they already know what's going on when watching it. After would still cause them to be confused. However just someone saying "Well after Superman blah blah" would also work.

[Samhaine]

Originally posted by TheFastestManAlive
why doesnt he use his super-speed more? what about COLD BREATH or thunderclap
I've also noticed that he's not once used speed. But then again, that's stealing Flash's shtick, so maybe that's why. Not that this is an excuse, because I certainly don't agree with it, but maybe an explanation.

I'm saving my judgement on the whole Superman issue, mainly because I don't want to start thinking about it and get myself worked up. Once I've seen the entire season, I'll reflect on it, and then tear Supes' characterization to shreds.

And did SUperman even have cold breath in StAS?