League, yes... Team, no

[MILatino]

We may have seven heroes on the Justice League but they don't work well as a team. I realized this while watching an educational show on the Discovery Channel. :)

It seems that the Japanese have imported European bees because that species makes twice the honey as the Japanese species. Unfortunately, the Japanese wasps like to feed bee larvae to wasp larvae. When Japanese wasps attack European bee hives, they usually win. When they attack Japanese bee hives, they often lose. Why? European bees defend the hive one bee at a time whereas Japanese bees literally smother each wasp in a ball of bees to kill them.

I watch a lot of fight scenes in the Justice League and despite having all these heroes, they often lose fight scenes. Why? Because like European bees, our heroes seem to attack the foe(s) one at a time, almost taking turns. If Superman AND Wonder Woman, for example, grab a foe and hold on for dear life, half the battles would be won with little damage to property.

They don't work well as a team except for brainstorming... and most of the time that is poor except when Batman steps in. Come on, JL, a little team work here! That means more than just showing up at one place at the same time. :rolleyes:

[GL2k2]

Unfortunately, it is very well known for decades that DC is not good at superhero teams. Marvel took the idea and ran with it, and seeing how some of those guys were actual war-veterans they knew how to create an actual team. The ultimate team that comes to mind is the Fantastic Four. If you read the old comics, and I think the cartoon emulated this too, they worked together. They fought as a team. If the Thing punched a villian, the Invisible Woman would trip him, Mr. Fantastic would wrap him up, and the Human Torch would burn his gun or something. It got more complex of course, but that's pretty much it. X-Men copied this team work, however, with their overbearing individual issues and personalities, which worked with characterization and story, they didn't always succeed.

As for the Justice League, or should I say the writers of JL. They really are not using the team to the fullest. Yes, yet another episode has passed by with Superman simply punching someone who runs for him instead of zapping them with his heat vision. Or John Stewart not being inventive with his ring. The Flash can use super speed for other than running, as can Superman.

[Squall]

Everything said above is true, but remember... they're still learning how to work together as a team! Only 4 1/2 episodes ago, they were all used to working seperately. In "Secret Origins", they even got into arguments over how to split up the team of 7 in order to attack three different targets! And techically, they failed to destroy all three targets!

But now, by "War World", Part I, we see that some of the JL members are starting to learn to work together. I think that, by the end of Season 1, they'll have their teamwork down pretty good, and by the end of Season 2, they'll all be in tune with each other. Heck, by the end of Season 2, even the Injustice Gang will have gotten used to working as a team! (Without trying to kill each other, that is... well, OK, with the exception of Joker, of course. :D)

I say, give it time. Rome wasn't built in a day. Neither was any great city, for that matter... :rolleyes:

Oh, and I have a feeling that "Injustice For All" will be the episode where the JL is forced to learn some teamwork. They'll probably try the one-attacks-after-the-other approach, then fail miserably, then Batman or Green Lantern will say, "OK. That's it. We work together from now on." :)

[JL4Ever]

I rather like that there's conflict in the team and that they don't always work together. If everyone liked each other and the fight sequences were choreographed to the tee, the show would be boring. Let them argue. Let them fail a few times before defeating the bad guy. That's what makes for drama and not just action.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by JL4Ever
I rather like that there's conflict in the team and that they don't always work together. If everyone liked each other and the fight sequences were choreographed to the tee, the show would be boring. Let them argue. Let them fail a few times before defeating the bad guy. That's what makes for drama and not just action.

I don't think any of us mind the idea of conflict or arguments between the teammates. But that's different from the complete lack of coordination that the team has when they're fighting.

[JL4Ever]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus


I don't think any of us mind the idea of conflict or arguments between the teammates. But that's different from the complete lack of coordination that the team has when they're fighting.

You can't have it both ways. If the team is as coordinated as you want them to be they must be in agreement, which gets rid of the drama and spontinaety of the show. As I said, let them argue. Let them do things they're own way because these are great heroes who have agreed to come together on occasion, but have their own unique style and way of doing things. Understand that if you get rid of this then you lose the essence of the show.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by JL4Ever


You can't have it both ways. If the team is as coordinated as you want them to be they must be in agreement, which gets rid of the drama and spontinaety of the show. As I said, let them argue. Let them do things they're own way because these are great heroes who have agreed to come together on occasion, but have their own unique style and way of doing things. Understand that if you get rid of this then you lose the essence of the show.

Wait a minute. Are you saying that the reason these guys don't work well together in a fight is because they're always in competition with each other? Are you saying that Flash spitefully sits out the fights rather than rush in and help Superman, so that he and not Supes will be able to hog the glory? :confused:

If so, then it was a bad idea to start up the "Justice League" -- pretty soon Wonder Woman will be slipping Kryptonite into Superman's coffee and J'onn will be framing Batman for murder.

No, there can be plenty of personal friction between teammates, even as they work seamlessly together at their job: The guys who play on a basketball team can hate each other's guts, and still engage in great teamwork.

But with JL it seems to be that they haven't figured out that they can pool and coordinate their talents. And that's something they should be able to figure out independent of whatever prickly interpersonal issues they may have with each other.

[JL4Ever]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus


Wait a minute. Are you saying that the reason these guys don't work well together in a fight is because they're always in competition with each other? Are you saying that Flash spitefully sits out the fights rather than rush in and help Superman, so that he and not Supes will be able to hog the glory? :confused:

If so, then it was a bad idea to start up the "Justice League" -- pretty soon Wonder Woman will be slipping Kryptonite into Superman's coffee and J'onn will be framing Batman for murder.

No, there can be plenty of personal friction between teammates, even as they work seamlessly together at their job: The guys who play on a basketball team can hate each other's guts, and still engage in great teamwork.

But with JL it seems to be that they haven't figured out that they can pool and coordinate their talents. And that's something they should be able to figure out independent of whatever prickly interpersonal issues they may have with each other.

I'm not saying they're competing with each other, I'm just saying that they have different styles and ways of doing things. For example, Hawkgirl would rather fight first and talk later, which makes her very different from say Superman who always tries to resolve things peacefully. Having established that, you can't just say to Hawkgirl well now you're a member of a team so you have to do things this way now, because that's not her style. And further, if that in fact does happen you will lose the drama and spontinaety because the league will then become a well-oiled machine instead of a conglomeration of very unique parts.

[Maxie Zeus]

Ah, I get it. :)

I still disagree. You seem to be saying that good storytelling requires them to each have their own unique style, and that for them to have their own unique style they can't work together inside a fight.

Well, I'll certainly go along with the first inference, but not the second.

They don't have to lose their independent powers to cooperate effectively. So, the bad guys walks in with a laser gun. GL pins him to the wall with a power beam, Supes heatvisions the gun out of his hand, Flash races up and claps the handcuffs on him, and Hawkgirl flies up and whomps him on the head with her mace. Unique styles, integrated seamlessly.

Instead, in the show each hero would race up individually and get shot down by a laser beam.

Will the former kind of fight scene make for boring stories? No more boring, it seems to me, than watching the bad guy shoot down each hero individually, like ducks in a shooting gallery. And if it means the fight scenes are over that much quicker, then good. Maybe we've got more time for the story to develop; we'll have time to ask, "Who is this bad guy? What's his story? What does he want?" instead of asking "Will he hit Superman with the laser beam? Huh. Now, will he hit Flash? Huh. Now, will he hit GL?"

The idea that the heroes must constantly be put in jeopardy certainly makes the writer's life easier: He can simply build a little shooting gallery -- or, if he's writing "War World part 1" he can have Supes and Draaga throw rocks at each other for ten minutes. But it does not make for a more interesting story. Just a tedious one.

[JL4Ever]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
Ah, I get it. :)

I still disagree. You seem to be saying that good storytelling requires them to each have their own unique style, and that for them to have their own unique style they can't work together inside a fight.

Well, I'll certainly go along with the first inference, but not the second.

They don't have to lose their independent powers to cooperate effectively. So, the bad guys walks in with a laser gun. GL pins him to the wall with a power beam, Supes heatvisions the gun out of his hand, Flash races up and claps the handcuffs on him, and Hawkgirl flies up and whomps him on the head with her mace. Unique styles, integrated seamlessly.

Instead, in the show each hero would race up individually and get shot down by a laser beam.

Will the former kind of fight scene make for boring stories? No more boring, it seems to me, than watching the bad guy shoot down each hero individually, like ducks in a shooting gallery. And if it means the fight scenes are over that much quicker, then good. Maybe we've got more time for the story to develop; we'll have time to ask, "Who is this bad guy? What's his story? What does he want?" instead of asking "Will he hit Superman with the laser beam? Huh. Now, will he hit Flash? Huh. Now, will he hit GL?"

The idea that the heroes must constantly be put in jeopardy certainly makes the writer's life easier: He can simply build a little shooting gallery -- or, if he's writing "War World part 1" he can have Supes and Draaga throw rocks at each other for ten minutes. But it does not make for a more interesting story. Just a tedious one.

I think the sticking point in our debate is what we each define as boring. You don't find a neatly choreographed fight sequence boring, but I do. If one hero takes one shot then the next follows through and the next and the next until our villain of the week is defeated, to me, it would make these scenes almost seem routine after a while. If we know Superman is going to do this, GL is going to do that and Hawkgirl is going to say that then to me, it becomes boring. I like the fact that each member has their own style and uses it even when it maybe conflicts with another member's style or philosophy. I think to see the heroes get knocked down only to come back in a fight scene makes the scene more suspenseful instead of just going through an assembly line of attacks that invariably always ends in the villain getting taken down. Yes, it does make the action sequences longer, which takes time away from the story, but the writers have been getting around that so far by incorporating actual story in the action. For example, in "War World" part one Hawkgirl throws three aliens through a glass wall and goes on to fight all three at the same time. GL then decides this has gone far enough and uses his ring to stop the fight. Hawkgirl is mad because she feels she could have taken them and at that point GL uses the ring to subdue one of the aliens to get the needed information his way, using Hawkgiurl as a backup. This scene was interesting to me because of of the sparing that went on between Hawkgirl and GL, in that they each did their own thing, disagreed, but came together in the end to get the job done. In using this chain of events the writers establish relationships and story while the scene is going on, thus increasing the suspense and the drama. If they did it your way the scene would be over in a minute and the two would have just gone off the find Superman without ever having to interact at all, which would detract from the characterization the writers accomplished by putting in the longer sequence where each hero does things their own way.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy all,

OK, here comes the funny part. JL4Ever, I think the example you provided is exactly the kind of thing that Maxie is saying is lacking in JL. So, I agree with both of you and with neither of you at the same time. This will probably result in both of you getting ticked at me, and proceeding to use team tactics to beat me up =8^).

An example of the kind of "Team Tactics" which I think Maxie is referring to is in the first Zauriel story of Grant Morrison's JLA run, when GL rings up a treadmill that turns the Flash's speed into sound. It's a tactic which simply WILL NOT WORK without both players involved at the same time.

There's a whole bunch of examples in Mark Waid's JLA: Year One series, which is especially appropriate to this discussion because there's plenty of personal friction between members, but plenty of teamwork, too. Off the top of my head, there's the bit where the Flash carries Black Canary as they run over the Arctic Ocean, and Canary shatters icebergs in their way with her sonic scream. Or the bit where Aquaman gets his fishy friends to cover up GL's light so GL can use his ring without getting pounded on.

JL does this kind of thing (e.g., the Hawkgirl/GL example you give above, and the bit where all the heroes wipe out the Imperium in "Secret Origins"), but not often enough for my tastes.

If this makes fights in JL too short, then either cut down the number of heroes at one time, or get bigger threats =8^).

-- Ed/Ace

[Maxie Zeus]

May I throw out a counter-hypothesis? :)

It may not be that we disagree about what is "boring," but about the kind of fight scene we're talking about. Because I completely agree with you about the GL/Hawkgirl scenes in "War World." I thought they were really well-handled, and liked very much the differing approaches that each had to the bar patrons. And I really like it whenever we see that.

When criticizing the show, I was thinking about the "battle" scenes, like at the climaxes of "Paradise Lost" and "The Enemy Below," or in the initial confrontation with the Manhunters in "In Blackest Night." In those scenes the entire team is together, and concentrated on a single goal. But instead of working together they tend to charge separately, and get knocked around a lot more for it. Those scenes have kinetic energy, and some clever bits, but like others in this thread, I kept wondering why the team didn't knit together and charge as one. And, after awhile of seeing each team member get knocked down, I got bored. Why should I care about action heroes who can't get their act together?

If you're worried that such a team will defeat the villain too quickly, try this solution: Make the villain so clever and resourceful that the team isn't able to catch up to him until the very end. And in the meantime, you've jazzed the entire story up by improving the adversary. But if your villain is so pathetic that the team can only lose to him by using a weak strategy, then that story needs a better villain.

[Memphis Bleek]

justice league have different styles. Bats and GL are serious while Flash is cracking joke. Supes and J'onzz are passive while Wonderwoman and Hawkgirl are aggresive. JL does have good team cohesive right now.

[kid_flash]

Basically, this has always been the run-down for the different teams:

JLA (or JL, whatever makes you happy): It's an army. They work together every now and then, but it's not very personal, with the exception of a few members.

Teen Titans: This is the groupyou hung with in high school. You hung out just chatting, then you went and did stuff together (like save the world).

X-Men: This is a school with a faculty. The falculty teaches the students, who will one day be like them (somewhat like college). The faculty is headed by a principle.

Fantastic Four: The family. They know each other better than anyone, and genuinely care about each other, even beyond that of any other team.

The Avengers: The preppy football team that always kicks your butt. They live in a mansion and have a jet and hang out with each other every now and then, but aren't incredibly close.

You basically see what I'm driving at? The Justice League has a common goal, but not really a common way of achieving it.

[MILatino]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
In those scenes the entire team is together, and concentrated on a single goal. But instead of working together they tend to charge separately, and get knocked around a lot more for it. Those scenes have kinetic energy, and some clever bits, but like others in this thread, I kept wondering why the team didn't knit together and charge as one.

Yes. Believe it or not, the even the writers of the Superfriends :eek: had a better idea what team work was. Consider this final fight scene from the episode where Black Manta creates the Water Beast:

• Manta summons the Water Beast because a cargo ship broke the rules and sailed without his permission.
• The Water Beast grabs the ship and tosses it in the air where Superman flies in and catches it.
• Meanwhile, Wonder Woman flies her invisible jet around the beast and covers it in a smoke screen to block Manta's view.
• Next Batman & Robin copter in and use a suction hose to break down the beast into individual tanks of water on shore rendering the beast harmless.
• That done, the Wonder Twins activate their powers and Jayna flies Zan into the smokey area where he takes the place of the Water Beast to fool Manta.
• Aquaman then dives into Zan and waits for Manta to let down his guard, and captures him.

The Superfriends were in radio contact the whole time and orchestrated this to the tee. I have not seen anything remote to this kind of team work on the Justice League yet.

[Clark J. Kent]

So you're saying Superfriends is better than Justice League? Is that what you are saying or am I misinterpreting?

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Clark J. Kent
So you're saying Superfriends is better than Justice League? Is that what you are saying or am I misinterpreting?

No, I think he's saying that the Superfriends seemed to work better at coordinating with each other. That's an observation about the way the characters interact, not an observation about the quality of the 2 shows.

[RockyMtnBri]

You gotta look at the comic as well. They have really used Jonzz's mental powers as a means of communications between them, to coordinate attacks and the like. Hopefully we'll see this in the show, because I think it really makes a difference.

The FF have the family thing, and it helps them in their battles. I remember in a What If? where there was a new FF (Spider-Man, Hulk, Wolverine, and Ghost Rider) they come to the conclusion that the FF worked because they WERE family, and they couldn't replace them.

The X-Men had a similar feel because of Prof. X mentally guiding his team, and even the second wave (remember The Fastball Special (they used it on the Powerpuff Girls!) Wolverine and Colossus used) knew how to play off each other's strengths.

[MILatino]

Originally posted by Clark J. Kent
So you're saying Superfriends is better than Justice League? Is that what you are saying or am I misinterpreting?

You're misinterpreting. I said nothing about one show being better than the other. What I said was that the writers of the Justice League don't seem to know what team work really means. I used the one example from the Superfriends to show how those writers got it right.

As far as one being better, the Superfriends was fine for me at that point because I was a kid and it was written for my age. I'm older now and the better sophistication of the Justice League is more my style. However, because this show is supposed to be targeted to adults, those writers need stop trying to cater to kiddies by dumbing down the dialog, making it all action / no dialog. B:TAS is a great example of how it should be done.

[Squall]

I think that the Justice League vs. Injustice Gang melee battles we'll see in the upcoming episode "Injustice For All" will show us, in real-time, so to speak, how well the JL works together when they're forced to work together. If they don't work together, then the Injustice Gang, despite its inhernetly chaotic nature, will take out the JL. Lex Luthor, Joker, and Ultra-Humanite are all three geniuses, and they'll be ready for anything the JL may or may not do.

I think that, in that episode, we'll see the JL attack the IG one-at-a-time style, like they've been doing, and fail miserably. Then Batman and/or Green Lantern (Is Batman the only genius in the JL? Green Lantern is a military tactitian, isn't he??) will step up and say, "OK. No more of this. From now on, we work together." :D

Besides, can you imagine how awesome those melee battles are going to be?!? :p