The "cartoons are for kids" mentality: does it really exist?

[MonkeyFunk]

A recurring discussion point at this forum is the supposedly commonly-held prejudice that all animation is for kids, and the ridicule faced by people who feel otherwise:


The only prime-time shows audiences have accepted were funny ones like The Simpsons. Adults, generally speaking, don't believe grit and cartoons go together.
If BTAS had done well in primetime, really really well, that would have meant the audience was not biased against animation as a medium. In other words, the audience would have had to have been fundamentally different than it is in reality.
I would love to see some cartoons that are as good, but as long as we have the "cartoons are for kids" mentality it will not be economically feasible and thus won't happen. My favorite american cartoon of all time is Gargoyles, but IMO it's easily beaten by a dozen or so animes that I've seen.


My stance of course is that the general audience doesn't necessarily dislike the medium, but they avoid watching it because of the stigma that animation is for children and 40 year old virgins. I mean logically the only thing that should determine your viewing habits is Personal Preference, yet many people choose programs based off Peer Pressure.

But, really, I haven't seen much first-hand evidence of this prejudice. I've never been made fun of for liking cartoons. I remember one time in a college class when the conversation turned to Christian Bale. Earlier on that day I'd bought a copy of Howl's Moving Castle and pulled it out of my bag - "I got a Christian Bale film this morning"
"What is it?"
"Howl's Moving Castle. Ever heard of it?"
"No. Not really into anime."

And that's it. No ridicule, no sneering - just a simple offhand comment. When that's the worst I've ever been through, I start to have trouble believing that this oppression of animation enthusiasts actually exists.

If the majority of adults aren't interested in animation outside of sitcoms, then perhaps the subject matter of the alternatives is to blame, not just prejudice against the medium. I doubt that Batman: TAS would have been much more popular with adults if it had been live action 'cause, well, something tells me that comparatively few adults would want to watch a series about superheroes (Heroes is the exception that proves the rule - it works overtime to distance itself from the genre). Same with teenage boys piloting giant robots.

Of course, adult Anglophone animation has more to offer than superheroes. There's a lot of great stuff out there that can't be classed as action or comedy and I'd love to see it get more recognition. But the trouble is, this board doesn't seem to be interested in it. Just look at this topic (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=204442), where I posted a bunch of examples for everyone's viewing pleasure, and they were totally ignored. If not even this forum can muster enthusiasm, how can we expect the general public to?

[Cortez2301]

I just think that the "ALL Animation is solely for Children" saying is completely wrong.

[MonkeyFunk]

But have you ever heard anyone actually say that? I know I haven't.

[Antiyonder]

But, really, I haven't seen much first-hand evidence of this prejudice. I've never been made fun of for liking cartoons. I remember one time in a college class when the conversation turned to Christian Bale. Earlier on that day I'd bought a copy of Howl's Moving Castle and pulled it out of my bag - "I got a Christian Bale film this morning"
"What is it?"
"Howl's Moving Castle. Ever heard of it?"
"No. Not really into anime."

And that's it. No ridicule, no sneering - just a simple offhand comment. When that's the worst I've ever been through, I start to have trouble believing that this oppression of animation enthusiasts actually exists.

Just because you don't experience something doesn't mean it's nonexistent. That's like saying, "I don't know people who are nearsighted, thus nearsighted people don't exist". Contrary to what the song says, it is not a small world after all.

While not cartoon related, someone on the bus I ride noticed me reading a Pokemon Firered Players Guide. His criticism wasn't based off the quality of the product, but simply that Pokemon is for kids. Infact many forum posters have stated personal experience of their parents/friends/peers telling them they're too old for the medium. While we may exagerate or get cynical, I doubt that posters on here lie about experiences.


If the majority of adults aren't interested in animation outside of sitcoms, then perhaps the subject matter of the alternatives is to blame, not just prejudice against the medium. I doubt that Batman: TAS would have been much more popular with adults if it had been live action 'cause, well, something tells me that comparatively few adults would want to watch a series about superheroes (Heroes is the exception that proves the rule - it works overtime to distance itself from the genre). Same with teenage boys piloting giant robots.

Superheroes share the same stigma of cartoons. Thus they aren't socially acceptable to enjoy unless you tone down to more comic like aspects (i.e. spandex costume). Spider-Man and Supes are the exception as their costumes are iconic.


Of course, adult Anglophone animation has more to offer than superheroes. There's a lot of great stuff out there that can't be classed as action or comedy and I'd love to see it get more recognition. But the trouble is, this board doesn't seem to be interested in it. Just look at this topic (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=204442), where I posted a bunch of examples for everyone's viewing pleasure, and they were totally ignored. If not even this forum can muster enthusiasm, how can we expect the general public to?

As I've said, the problem is that they don't air on tv. While online programs have many viewers, television is viewed frequently as watching TV is more relaxing, plus some program viewing sites may not always load well or at all for some computers, thus not many people get to experience them.

[The Huntsman]

I can say from my own experiences that the belief actually exists, though I’m sure its more prevalent in some parts of the world than it is in others. I was teased immensely by my brothers for watching animated programs that I enjoyed, and at school, most of my colleagues said I should only watch “mature” animated programs, though in actuality, most “mature” animated programs are quite immature.

Suffice to say, it’s the reason I watch all of my animated programs in private and under a shroud of darkness.

[Antiyonder]

Suffice to say, it’s the reason I watch all of my animated programs in private and under a shroud of darkness.

If anyone catches you watching cartoons, say what I did when I got criticized for reading a Pokemon guide, "A book doesn't have to be pornographic to be good". The person giving the critical comment couldn't say anything more than "true".

[Tea]

It still exists but with the popularity of Adult Swim, I like to think that sort of perception has gone way down. Not that I really know since I keep most of my nerdy interests online instead of off. But the students in my animation class are all open fans of cartoons (surprise, surprise)!

[The Huntsman]

It still exists but with the popularity of Adult Swim, I like to think that sort of perception has gone way down.
[Adult Swim] has made animation more acceptable to the average adult, that much is true, but it also widened the divide that I spoke about earlier. Most people would call the animated programs on [Adult Swim] “mature” animation, even though it’s not really mature. Trust me, if you tell the average adult that you watch “Family Guy” or “Robot Chicken”, you’ll get a much different response than you would if you told them that you watch “Kim Possible” or "Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends".

[MonkeyFunk]

Infact many forum posters have stated personal experience of their parents/friends/peers telling them they're too old for the medium. While we may exagerate or get cynical, I doubt that posters on here lie about experiences.

Doubtless, but it comes to something when people use isolated instances of name-calling as evidence of a widespread prejudice against cartoons that's hampering development of the medium. Sometimes a berk on the bus is just a berk on the bus.

And then we have things like this:


at school, most of my colleagues said I should only watch “mature” animated programs, though in actuality, most “mature” animated programs are quite immature.

Sounds more like they're prejudiced against children's cartoons (and possibly children's television in general) than against the medium of animation.


As I've said, the problem is that they don't air on tv. While online programs have many viewers, television is viewed frequently as watching TV is more relaxing, plus some program viewing sites may not always load well or at all for some computers, thus not many people get to experience them.

I'd still have thought that this forum - with its legion of Homestar Runner and Bonus Stage fans - would be open to the idea of online cartoons. I'm well aware that not everyone here has the technology to view the files, but come on - there wasn't a single reply that actually showed any evidence of the poster having watched the cartoons. Surely at least some people here can view them?

And, for the record, some of those films have been shown on TV. Two were commissioned by a major British TV channel, and at least one of the others is available on DVD.


If anyone catches you watching cartoons, say what I did when I got criticized for reading a Pokemon guide, "A book doesn't have to be pornographic to be good".

Snuh!?

[Antiyonder]

Doubtless, but it comes to something when people use isolated instances of name-calling as evidence of a widespread prejudice against cartoons that's hampering development of the medium. Sometimes a berk on the bus is just a berk on the bus.

Quite a bit of posters describe it not just on Toon Zone, but other forums. Hardly what I'd call isolated. Again, just because you don't experience something first hand doesn't mean it's any less valid.



And, for the record, some of those films have been shown on TV. Two were commissioned by a major British TV channel, and at least one of the others is available on DVD.

I'm talking about channels that the high majority of folks have.


Snuh!?

That's why many find no enjoyment with cartoons, especially the ones for the younger demograph. Because they lack profanity and pornographic elements. Thus if someone criticizes me for enjoying something like Pokemon, I use the comeback in the quote above.

[Sonic_Eclipse]

From my personal experince I can tell you that the stereo type does exist. When I was in Middle and High School, kids made fun of me all time.

Why, my one brother who is possibly one of the biggest *******s I have ever met even makes fun of me, he makes all kinds of dumb comments when I'm watching TV on Saturday mornings like; "There's a reason it says 4Kids TV and Kids'WB! in the corner, cause it's for kids." Sometimes he'll even go as far as calling me a 40yr Old virgin. I've learned to ignore comments like these from people but it does get annoying. Yet these comments come from people who have no problem watching Family Guy, South Park, Drawn Together, and other crappy cartoons like those. Oh I forgot those are "mature" cartoons. These people also have the same mentality on videogames, unless the game requires you to blow someones brains out and if the characters aren't cussing all the time the game is for little kids and are not "real" games. I'm not a big gamer but, are you serious?

Because of this "Cartoons are only for kids" thing, I try to keep most of my favorite shows private.

[Mala Loba]

It depends on the show I mention, really. If it's a show aimed at a considerably younger demographic (I'm an almost eighteen year old girl, so it would presumably be a cartoon directed towards the 7-11 year old boys, I guess), I'll get polite smiles or maybe an awkward cough. However, if it's something that's 'mature' then I'll get a better response.

This conversation reminds me of something- I was told the summer before my sixth grade that 'sixth graders don't watch cartoons, they watch grown-up shows!' I relayed this to my mother, who raised an eyebrow and said, 'Wow, someone should have told my father that, cause he was in his fifties when he passed, and he loved cartoons!"

[Racattack!Force]

While I've never dealt with it, I say that it depends on what you watch. If you watch cartoons meant for preschoolers, you would get more awkward stares than watching cartoons that's aimed more for your demographic. :shrug:

[HG Revolution]

My school is more or less divided into three camps concerning animation: the kids who don't care whether a show is live-action or animated, the kids who watch Family Guy and Robot Chicken but disregard anything else animated as dorky, and the kids who believe that because both of the first two groups have some interest in animation that they all act as immature as the second group tends to do and thus look down upon all animation unless it's someone being "sensitive" and talking about how they like Dora the Explorer or something ironic like that (this last group tends to obsess over Hanna Montanna, which is somehow more sophisticated than The Simpsons by their standards).

[Alex Weitzman]

Having heard it firsthand from several members of the industry, I can tell you that the mentality absolutely does exist within a great deal of network and studio executives. Even if the audience is primed or available for wider-reaching animation, the industry's greenlighters (ESPECIALLY the ones these days) refuse to approve anything that's not "for kids".

[Cortez2301]

But have you ever heard anyone actually say that? I know I haven't.I hear it everyday. I mean a friend of mine, who is a huge anime fan, kept trying to convince another guy how violent alot of anime series/movies are and that guy didn't care.Alot of people just refuse to listen because they are close minded and I think they just don't want to be proven wrong.Thats basically it.

[tb4000]

I hear it from people regarding animated movies. Even if it's a good one, they're like, "I don't wanna go see no cartoon."

I do remember back in the early 90s my dad would religiously watch BTAS every day and my mom would be like, "what are you doing watching cartoons?"

[Golgo13]

It still exists to a certain degree. Like many people said, animated films aren't as appealing to the older demographic even though I myself in the 18-24 demo find them to have more thought and direction behind them than most live-action movies. For instance, I was a big fan of Monster House, Cars, and Robots, but many of my friends just didn't see the appeal.

In terms of animated TV series, we've come a long way. The mainstream is a lot more accepting of shows like The Simpsons, Family Guy, and Robot Chicken most likely because of the central character humor and references.

The only way I've seen it get worse is that cartoons on Saturday mornings have become less adult-friendly. I remember my teacher was big into Batman TAS, my parents were into Tiny Toons, and my older uncle was into Ren and Stimpy. Nowadays, I can't think of a single show on Saturday mornings they'd be into watching.

[J-man]

So, it's pretty clear now that most of us have been told that "animation is for kids", or at least that some of it is. I here this from my parents every time they see me watching a cartoon. And worst of all, I KNOW they'd like some of the animation I watch, they just refuse to give it a try because they're "mature" And, it's also pretty clear that the people who tell us this are such rigid conformists that they refuse to watch them out of embarrassment, and instead watch a lot of the "mature" trash that's on Mtv, VH1, Fuse, etc. (note: I'm not saying everything on each of those channels is trash, just that vast majority of it is.) Thankfully, more than half of the people at my school are still big animation fans, even of the younger demographic stuff from the 90s like Rocko and Fairly Odd Parents.

Personally, I pretty much only watch shows aimed at my age group of (generally) 16-24. However, I still enjoy cartoons aimed at younger demographics such as Rocko, Ren & Stimpy, Invader Zim, AH! Real Monsters, etc. I'm also sure I'd like the newer shows in this genre like Chowder. But I rarely watch these because of my parents' nagging at me whenever they see me watching them. But whatever, they're just ****** bags.

Still, I do know of adults and teens who still love animation, and I know lots of you all who love animation, and your age groups very widely here. So, with that knowledge, I refuse to be embarrassed by my love for animation.

[Elven Moon]

I'm generally safe from mocking since at least some of my family and friends have no room to talk (ex: my dad, who's almost 60, watches Fairly Oddparents and Jimmy Neutron on a daily basis). But I have come across conversations in the past that imply that people over, say, 10 or 11, should not be watching cartoons, be it online or offline. I just ignore them. They're missing out and I hope I never become as "mature" as they are ;)

[Hordesman]

The popular conception that animation is a kids medium is deep-rooted in the mass culture, but it probably stems from Disney gaining the reputation as family-friendly in the wake of the Hayes code and other studios followed suit.

Which is a bit silly, when I think of where Disney started off (see Plane Crazy and Skeleton Dance) and wasn't always squeaky clean (see http://animationguildblog.blogspot.com/2006/09/now-that-was-wrap-party.html and the 3 Caballeros- man, that movie blew my mind as a kid)

[Dr.Pepper]

It sometimes does. I don't think that I have really haerd people say that all cartoons are for kids but being 18 I think that alot of other people my age think it is unaccetible to be watching CN and Nick but it will be okay to watch Family Guy or South Park. I mean the other day I heard some girl in one of my classes laugh so hard she fell out of her seat and her face turned bright red because she was luaghing so hard because another boy said his 16-year-old brother's favorite show was Fairly Oddparents. Then they both had a good laugh over how the girls friend likes CN.

[MonkeyFunk]

Quite a bit of posters describe it not just on Toon Zone, but other forums. Hardly what I'd call isolated. Again, just because you don't experience something first hand doesn't mean it's any less valid.

But this is supposed to be a prejudice harboured by most of the population. Considering how deeply into animation I am, the fact that it's passed me over gives me reason enough to question whether it's happening quite how some people here are describing it.


I'm talking about channels that the high majority of folks have.

So... a development that's happening outside America isn't worth discussing?






I notice that a number of anecdotes here involve being picked on by siblings and schoolkids. Of course siblings and schoolkids pick on eachother; that doesn't say much about what the general adult population thinks about animation. Not surprising that "sometimes, but not enough to really gauge public opinion on cartoons" is the most popular poll choice right now - these are just isolated incidents of name-calling, like I said.

A number of posts here have backed up one of my points:


It depends on the show I mention, really. If it's a show aimed at a considerably younger demographic (I'm an almost eighteen year old girl, so it would presumably be a cartoon directed towards the 7-11 year old boys, I guess), I'll get polite smiles or maybe an awkward cough. However, if it's something that's 'mature' then I'll get a better response.


While I've never dealt with it, I say that it depends on what you watch. If you watch cartoons meant for preschoolers, you would get more awkward stares than watching cartoons that's aimed more for your demographic.


I don't think that I have really haerd people say that all cartoons are for kids but being 18 I think that alot of other people my age think it is unaccetible to be watching CN and Nick but it will be okay to watch Family Guy or South Park.

In other words, there's a prejudice against cartoons that are for children. I think a lot of people mistake this for a prejudice against cartoons in general.

[The Huntsman]

In other words, there's a prejudice against cartoons that are for children. I think a lot of people mistake this for a prejudice against cartoons in general.
But most animated programs are made for children, so if there is a prejudice against such animated programs, there is a prejudice against a vast majority of animated programs on television. For that reason, it’s easy for people to perceive the problems to be one and the same.

[Antiyonder]

But this is supposed to be a prejudice harboured by most of the population. Considering how deeply into animation I am, the fact that it's passed me over gives me reason enough to question whether it's happening quite how some people here are describing it.

Let's try this one again. Are you saying that if you yourself don't experience something personally, then it's nonexistent?


So... a development that's happening outside America isn't worth discussing?

It's because we aren't aware of said cartoon nor do we have a chance to view it so it's hard to get enthusiastic over something we can't experience for ourselves.


In other words, there's a prejudice against cartoons that are for children. I think a lot of people mistake this for a prejudice against cartoons in general.

Considering that many adults currently enjoy Disney's kid centered sitcoms, I don't see any reason why they can't give the kid centered toons a chance.

Besides the Fox Primetime and Adult Swim programs, there have been many cartoons that have been written for all ages (adults included), yet most adults don't give those a viewing chance. I'm talking about cartoons such as:

- Batman The Animated Series
- Superman
- Gargoyles
- Batman Beyond
- Second Seasons of Iron Man and Fantastic Four from 1995.
- Justice League and Justice League Unlimited
- Avatar The Last Airbender
- The Spectacular Spider-Mam
- Animaniacs
- Pinky & The Brain
- Freakazoid
- American Dragon Jake Long

[Movie06]

It's always funny that some people say "animation is for kids" because adult make cartoons. So, it that kind of ironic that some adults say cartoons are for kids and yet adults make the cartoons?

[Darklordavaitor]

When I think about it, the only person who really gives me flack for still watching animated series is my sister, who hasn't watched a cartoon since Rugrats was at it's height of popularity, but loves Hannah Montana. Most else have been cool with me, although my mother does still raise an eyebrow whenever I try to watch Jimmy Neutron. I'd say the sterotype exists to an extent, but if nothing else, Roger Rabbit, The Simpsons, Batman: TAS, and Cartoon Network made it a little cooler for an adult to watch cartoons.

Speaking of which, I really miss having intelligent adult-aimed animated series that don't rely on smut to entertain older viewers. Sure, we still have King of the Hill, but it seems to me nowadays that for mainstream adults(ie, non-Toon Zone members) to enjoy a cartoon, they need nothing but rod and fart jokes, alongside frequent acts of wanton violence and at least 3 cuss words a minute. I may love shows like The Boondocks and Drawn Together, but I miss series like Daria, Home Movies, Futurama, as well as classic Simpsons and Family Guy thay didn't have to aim solely to the lowest common denominator to get their point across.

[Racattack!Force]

It's always funny that some people say "animation is for kids" because adult make cartoons. So, it that kind of ironic that some adults say cartoons are for kids and yet adults make the cartoons?
What they are saying is that "animation is made for kids".

[MonkeyFunk]

Let's try this one again. Are you saying that if you yourself don't experience something personally, then it's nonexistent?

I'm saying that I haven't experienced this particular phenomenon, which is supposed to be, like, uber-prevalent, so I have reason to doubt it.

And again, most of the anecdotes about being picked on deal with schoolkids and siblings, which gives me another reason to doubt it.

And by now, more than half of the voters have picked the "not enough to gauge public opinion" option, so they're doubting it.

So, really, I have no reason to believe that this contempt for animation is quite so widespread amongst the adult population as people here have assumed.


It's because we aren't aware of said cartoon nor do we have a chance to view it so it's hard to get enthusiastic over something we can't experience for ourselves.

So no-one at this forum could view those files?! Wow, how did anyone watch any trailers online before Youtube?


Considering that many adults currently enjoy Disney's kid centered sitcoms, I don't see any reason why they can't give the kid centered toons a chance.

Errrrr... are we talking about actual adults here, or just high school kids again? I think it's been firmly established now that high school kids have no taste.


- Batman The Animated Series
- Superman
- Gargoyles
- Batman Beyond
- Second Seasons of Iron Man and Fantastic Four from 1995.
- Justice League and Justice League Unlimited
- Avatar The Last Airbender
- The Spectacular Spider-Mam
- Animaniacs
- Pinky & The Brain
- Freakazoid
- American Dragon Jake Long

oh lord

[J-man]

Errrrr... are we talking about actual adults here, or just high school kids again? I think it's been firmly established now that high school kids have no taste.


A majority of them have no taste. :P

[Darklordavaitor]

oh lord
"oh lord", what?

[Movie06]

A majority of them have no taste. :P

Except my friends, they like cartoons.

[The Huntsman]

I'm saying that I haven't experienced this particular phenomenon, which is supposed to be, like, uber-prevalent, so I have reason to doubt it.

And again, most of the anecdotes about being picked on deal with schoolkids and siblings, which gives me another reason to doubt it.

And by now, more than half of the voters have picked the "not enough to gauge public opinion" option, so they're doubting it.

So, really, I have no reason to believe that this contempt for animation is quite so widespread amongst the adult population as people here have assumed.

So no-one at this forum could view those files?! Wow, how did anyone watch any trailers online before Youtube?

Errrrr... are we talking about actual adults here, or just high school kids again? I think it's been firmly established now that high school kids have no taste.

oh lord
With all due respect, I don’t quite understand why you’re making such a big deal about this. I don’t recall many people saying that adults hated animated programs, but it’s common knowledge that many adults refuse to watch animated programs if the animated programs in question were created for a younger demographic. All that we’ve said was that many adults are missing out on genuinely entertaining experiences due to their prejudice against animated programs, especially those that are designed for children. The latter argument, about the public perception of adults who do watch those animated programs, is a matter of circumstance and will differ on a case by case basis. I have seen such teasing, but just because you haven’t doesn’t mean that I’m wrong.

With that, I take my leave of this thread. I’m sorry, but you’re not being very nice.

[J-man]

Except my friends, they like cartoons.

I was sticking up for high schoolers then, myself included.

[Joe]

Errrrr... are we talking about actual adults here, or just high school kids again? I think it's been firmly established now that high school kids have no taste.

Yeah, it seems that most of the "animation is for kids" type of comments are from middle/high school kids. Particularly those defensive about thier percieved masculinity.

Most of the adults I've been around are not really that negative in their views of watching cartoons (unless we're talking about things clearly designed for young children, like Arthur or Muppet Babies). The most acceptable around adults and family members seem to be Pixar films, a majority of art-house works (mainly short sujects), primetime televised cartoons, certain Japanese animated programs, and theatrical shorts and movies from the "golden age." It takes some arm twisting to get someone to watch a show like Animaniacs or Spongebob.

In short, I agree with the points made by the OP.

[Antiyonder]

I'm saying that I haven't experienced this particular phenomenon, which is supposed to be, like, uber-prevalent, so I have reason to doubt it.

And again, most of the anecdotes about being picked on deal with schoolkids and siblings, which gives me another reason to doubt it.

And by now, more than half of the voters have picked the "not enough to gauge public opinion" option, so they're doubting it.

So, really, I have no reason to believe that this contempt for animation is quite so widespread amongst the adult population as people here have assumed.

Yes or no, if you don't experience something, you insist that it doesn't exist?


So no-one at this forum could view those files?! Wow, how did anyone watch any trailers online before Youtube?

Some people can, but just not everybody.


Errrrr... are we talking about actual adults here, or just high school kids again? I think it's been firmly established now that high school kids have no taste.

I'm talking actual adults.


oh lord

What? Those shows do have adult appeal. Sure they lack sexual scenes and profanity, but they have good writing and characterization.

[The Irishman]

It's always funny that some people say "animation is for kids" because adult make cartoons. So, it that kind of ironic that some adults say cartoons are for kids and yet adults make the cartoons?

And THAT my friend is how I justify my enjoyment of cartoons to others. If it's made by adults, surely adults can enjoy it, right? I have worn a Foster's T-shirt to work on a couple of occasions, and while I got comments on it, it was mostly "So, do you actually watch that show?" "Yes", I reply. "Is it any good?". "I like the Blues Brothers reference myself". I then proceed to tell them about Rocko's Modern Life and all the fun stuff that Joe & co. snuck in behind the censor's backs. That raises some eyebrows.

So, yes, it is a common perception by people that cartoons are for kids. But I'd like to mention all the crazy stuff that flew about when the BBC showed Jerry Springer: The Musical. The show generated the most viewer complaints ever, something in the thousands. But there was a problem: they were all logged before the show was broadcast. A lot of people were jumping to conclusions without concrete evidence.

Many adults have a negative view of cartoons as childish, but how many of those same people have actually seen a cartoons in recent times, let alone a really good one?

[J-man]

And by now, more than half of the voters have picked the "not enough to gauge public opinion" option, so they're doubting it.


Actually, the vast majority of us picked picked the "sometimes, but not enough to really gauge public opinion on cartoons" option on the poll, which means that we have experienced such scrutiny, we acknowledge that it exists, but it doesn't happen all the time.

And, if you do the math, you'll see that 85.72% of us have experienced public scrutiny on us being too old to watch cartoons. So, it certainly does exist, and it is somewhat prevalent in our society.

[ShadowDemon]

I'm saying that I haven't experienced this particular phenomenon, which is supposed to be, like, uber-prevalent, so I have reason to doubt it.

And again, most of the anecdotes about being picked on deal with schoolkids and siblings, which gives me another reason to doubt it.

And by now, more than half of the voters have picked the "not enough to gauge public opinion" option, so they're doubting it.

So, really, I have no reason to believe that this contempt for animation is quite so widespread amongst the adult population as people here have assumed.



So no-one at this forum could view those files?! Wow, how did anyone watch any trailers online before Youtube?



Errrrr... are we talking about actual adults here, or just high school kids again? I think it's been firmly established now that high school kids have no taste.



oh lord

OK. lets do an "apples to apples" test case: Batman

Someone, maybe you, said upthread that Batman TAS didn't rate well in prime time because adults in general don't watch superheroes:

Here are the Box office results (US Gross only) for the first four LA Batman films in order (from IMDB):

Batman (89) - $251,188,924
Batman Returns (92) - $162,831,698
Batman Forever (95) - $183,922,217
Batman and Robin (97) - $107, 285,004

The US Gross for Mask of the Phantasm:

Mask of the Phanstasm (93) - $5,617,391

Same characters and concepts, vastly different box office outcomes DESPITE MotP being the superior film in terms of story, script, and characterization to most if not ALL of those films.

[Racattack!Force]

Actually, the vast majority of us picked picked the "sometimes, but not enough to really gauge public opinion on cartoons" option on the poll, which means that we have experienced such scrutiny, we acknowledge that it exists, but it doesn't happen all the time.

And, if you do the math, you'll see that 85.72% of us have experienced public scrutiny on us being too old to watch cartoons. So, it certainly does exist, and it is somewhat prevalent in our society.
Actually, I picked that one by mistake. :sweat: I really was going to choose "Never - in fact, most of the talk about animation that I hear is positive".

[HomeMoviesFan]

"The "cartoons are for kids" mentality: does it really exist?"

What? Of course it does, my mother's proof of that...no really, she hates the Simpsons because she thinks cartoons are for kids. My dad is a more conservative person, and even he disagrees with her...

[Anthonynotes]

Speaking as one of the elder members of this forum (i.e. been awhile since I was in high school/college), my coworkers (who're all middle-aged-to-elderly) sometimes make a few jokes about my liking Superman (and cartoons in general), but for the most part, they feel cartoons are for kids/are silly and couldn't care less about animation---and nothing will change their minds about that (sitting through a few Disney or Pixar movies with their children or grandchildren aside). Some of my coworkers are also pretty conservative, and thus still have a low opinion of shows like "The Simpsons"...

Still, I did get to explain a few times things like who Supergirl was ("Superman has a cousin? I thought his planet blew up..."), and managed to answer someone's question about what Robin's real name was ("Dick Grayson".... save it, Bat-fanatics; the guy asking it wasn't remotely interested in hearing about who Tim Drake/Jason Todd/etc. etc. are, and Dick's the only Robin the general public's familiar with/thinks of anyway...).

My family, on the other hand, do like/watch cartoons (not as much as *I* do, but never thought of them as just "for kids")...

-B.

[MonkeyFunk]

I’m sorry, but you’re not being very nice.

Sorry, sorry, I got crotchety last night. When you try to start a discussion and one of your first replies is a lame analogy like this:


Just because you don't experience something doesn't mean it's nonexistent. That's like saying, "I don't know people who are nearsighted, thus nearsighted people don't exist".

...then it's easy to lose all hope at the sight of a topic being dragged into the depths of internet inanity so early on.


Yes or no, if you don't experience something, you insist that it doesn't exist?

Maybe I should just stop replying to your posts. It's really getting me nowhere.

I already answered this in my last post. Briefly: No. But my lack of experience isn't the only evidence I'm going on. Go back and re-read my last post if you want more.



Some people can, but just not everybody.

But, again, the topic didn't have any replies discussing the films, which is a disproportionally small amount.
And yet, if the films had involved Batman, I'm willing to be there would have been more interest...


What? Those shows do have adult appeal. Sure they lack sexual scenes and profanity, but they have good writing and characterization.

Most of them are superhero series. Which, as we discussed right at the start, isn't really going to attract many adults. Avatar, Gargoyles and American Dragon, being kid-targeted fantasy action-adventure series, are in the same boat. Quite possibly the fact that they're animated plays a part in their lack of appeal, but I'd say it's the straw that broke the camel, not the prime factor.

Animaniacs, Freakazoid and Pinky and the Brain, though, that's a different matter. There's more to discuss there. But I can think of a counterexample: Creature Comforts, a prime time animated comedy with no sex and very little swearing (one episode used the word "arse", and that's about it) was a success.

Perhaps adults are just turned off by something with "we're zany to the max" in the theme song...


I'm talking actual adults.

Well, this is a new one on me. Maybe, again, the lack of fantasy and "zaniness" in Disney tweencoms is a factor.


Someone, maybe you, said upthread that Batman TAS didn't rate well in prime time because adults in general don't watch superheroes:

Here are the Box office results (US Gross only) for the first four LA Batman films in order (from IMDB):

Batman (89) - $251,188,924
Batman Returns (92) - $162,831,698
Batman Forever (95) - $183,922,217
Batman and Robin (97) - $107, 285,004

The US Gross for Mask of the Phantasm:

Mask of the Phanstasm (93) - $5,617,391

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. This is an interesting case study that merits discussion.

My take: Well, first off, I wouldn't say that this reflects on B:TAS or any other TV series. Adults may be perfectly willing to spend a day at the cinema watching a film about a subject which they'd find unappealing in a TV series, which would require more commitment to watch regularly and could get old faster. Consider the general lack of live action superhero series (what demographics did Lois and Clerk do well with? That could make an interesting discussion point.)

So, whither Mask of the Phantasm? This could well be the first clear sign of prejudice against animation that's come up in this thread. I can't help but wonder about other factors, though. I mean, when a franchise has co-existing live action and animated branches, it seems reasonable to assume that the cartoon is going to be more kid-oriented; that could have turned people off, as could the fact that it's tied to a TV series which most of the filmgoers wouldn't have followed. Also, according to Wikipedia the filmmakers blamed the advertising, as opposed to any institutional contempt for the medium - which would explain why kids apparently didn't save the ticket sales. I mean, the Bratz movie managed nearly twice as much as Phantasm...

[Fone Bone]

I totally agree with Monkeyfunk. I have no doubt that the "cartoons are for kids" thing exists in high school where a lot of people on this board are right now but most adults couldn't care less if you watch cartoons. This is probably because of all of the references to cartoons and comic books on primetime shows and movies that have characters casually discussing the merits of Transformers and Scooby Doo. Liking cartoons is seen as no big deal for most people anymore.

But yeah, high school probably has a bunch of kids who rag on other kids for liking cartoons. But this is the place that has people (emos) dressed in black and reading dark poetry who actually think they are deep. No offense to teenagers on this board but a LOT of your peers are kind of ridiculous.

I NEVER hear people bad-mouth me for liking cartoons anymore (I'm not in high school). Probably because I don't try to give them a legitimacy that they don't deserve. I never try to act as if shows like Justice League Unlimited are made for adults. It's a fun cartoon that I like BECAUSE it's a fun cartoon. I'm sure if I tried to convince people that it was REALLY made for adults and was super heavy and deep they'd roll their eyes. Heck, I would too.

So in short, yeah, I suppose people COULD make fun of you for liking cartoons. But I think that probably has more to do with how defensive cartoon fans get over their shows. I've noticed on this board a LOT of people creating threads about how certain kids shows are really made for adults (like "Would a DCAU show work on HBO?") that border on the delusional. I have no doubt that this type of attitude in real life would lead to being made fun of. It's human nature for bullies to go after a perceived victim's weak spot and if they sense that a person is defensive about watching kids shows they'll do that. If the person who likes kids cartoons doesn't actually have a chip on their shoulder most adults who find out they like kids shows couldn't care less.

[Antiyonder]

Maybe I should just stop replying to your posts. It's really getting me nowhere.

I already answered this in my last post. Briefly: No. But my lack of experience isn't the only evidence I'm going on. Go back and re-read my last post if you want more.

It took you awhile to give me a direct, no beating around the bush response. Hence why I kept at it.

Going by the evidence that people voted "Sometimes, but not enough to really gauge public opinion on cartoons.", you already seemed sure that you're experiences put you in the right as you stated "When that's the worst I've ever been through, I start to have trouble believing that this oppression of animation enthusiasts actually exists." Perhaps if you ended the sentence with "though I might be mistaken", I wouldn't have found it to be such a know it all comment.


Most of them are superhero series. Which, as we discussed right at the start, isn't really going to attract many adults. Avatar, Gargoyles and American Dragon, being kid-targeted fantasy action-adventure series, are in the same boat. Quite possibly the fact that they're animated plays a part in their lack of appeal, but I'd say it's the straw that broke the camel, not the prime factor.

Animaniacs, Freakazoid and Pinky and the Brain, though, that's a different matter. There's more to discuss there. But I can think of a counterexample: Creature Comforts, a prime time animated comedy with no sex and very little swearing (one episode used the word "arse", and that's about it) was a success.

Perhaps adults are just turned off by something with "we're zany to the max" in the theme song...

I can't really comment on Creature Comforts success as I haven't even heard of it until just now.

But going back to the ones I listed, I fail to see why they are given a viewing chance. I mean yes they are officially for the 6-11 demograph and even have some childish moments to them, but so do many reality shows that adults watch. I mean is a children's cartoon anymore childish than say a show which relies on contestants who do gross and/or embarassing things?

That said, this will be my last post on the topic for the time being.

[MonkeyFunk]

I totally agree with Monkeyfunk.

One of many reasons why you rock.


you already seemed sure that you're experiences put you in the right as you stated "When that's the worst I've ever been through, I start to have trouble believing that this oppression of animation enthusiasts actually exists." Perhaps if you ended the sentence with "though I might be mistaken", I wouldn't have found it to be such a know it all comment.

Well, It's not as if I didn't invite dissent. I asked a question in the thread title, and included a four-option poll. And just for the record, that was actually a toned-down version of the comment - when I originally wrote the post it was a bit more sarky (I think my exact wording was "I start to have trouble believing that this universal oppression of animation enthusiasts actually exists".

[Rasputin]

Monkeyfunk, you do raise a very, very interesting point. I mean, I'm the first to be embarrassed by my devotion to certain (kid-orientated, admittedly) cartoon series, and yet whenever they actually come up in the course of discussion, I find that my discomfort is pretty much all me. Most people of my parents' generation...indeed people of my generation, considering I'm 23...don't think 'all animation is for kids'. They don't think anything of animation, they have no opinion whatsoever because they genuinely lack either the inclination or the experience to form an opinion.

Sometimes they watch The Simpsons. Often the nation gathers for Wallace & Gromit. They leave their young 'uns in front of the box and the rest of the time the aesthetic merits or demerits of animation is a subject so divorced from their everyday lives that news that you're heavily interested in cartoons is met with utter indifference. If anything (especially if it's your parents) they're probably just happy that you have a hobby.

I attended an animation study course as part of my Film Studies degree, and I can't for the life of me remember any notable discussion about whether the animation market was excessively juvenile. We just watched the films and wrote down incredibly dense analyses as to why they were what they were. Animation for animation's sake. It could be because Britain has a tradition of 'basement animators' (since we have no 'animation industry' to speak of) that submit pieces like artists submit paintings. The idea that it's a pursuit for juvenile man-children doesn't pop up much, since the popular perception of an 'animator' in this country is of an artistic auteur obsessive with a great deal of vision and a distinct lack of sun.

I'm with Monkeyfunk on this one. I believe the reason people are picked on for liking 'kids' stuff' is that it tends to actually be kid's stuff, and the abuse is usually spewn from...rather ironically...other kids. Adults have no opinion one way or the other, and pretty much like anything if it's put in front of them. It's only animation enthusiasts like ourselves that suffer from a persecution complex.

And by the by, Monkeyfunk, I'm sorry I missed that January discussion. I'd seen Kamiya's Correspondence before, and I liked its fusion of several different stylings both popular and otherwise, borrowing both from the more sensitive varieties of anime and the reality-morphing act of memory recall demonstrated in Caroline Leaf's The Street. The others look interesting, so I'll be sure to check them out. Thanks for that.

[HG Revolution]

I think one thing which might be useful pointing out is that MonkeyFunk is from the UK and most of the people here are American. It wouldn't shock me at all if the big anti-cartoon stance is mostly an American (and perhaps Japanese, though that issue is more anti-fandom than anti-the cartoons themselves from what I can gather) phenomenon that other parts of the world aren't affected by to the same extent.

[DarthGonzo]

I totally agree with Monkeyfunk. I have no doubt that the "cartoons are for kids" thing exists in high school where a lot of people on this board are right now but most adults couldn't care less if you watch cartoons. This is probably because of all of the references to cartoons and comic books on primetime shows and movies that have characters casually discussing the merits of Transformers and Scooby Doo. Liking cartoons is seen as no big deal for most people anymore.

But yeah, high school probably has a bunch of kids who rag on other kids for liking cartoons. But this is the place that has people (emos) dressed in black and reading dark poetry who actually think they are deep. No offense to teenagers on this board but a LOT of your peers are kind of ridiculous.

I NEVER hear people bad-mouth me for liking cartoons anymore (I'm not in high school). Probably because I don't try to give them a legitimacy that they don't deserve. I never try to act as if shows like Justice League Unlimited are made for adults. It's a fun cartoon that I like BECAUSE it's a fun cartoon. I'm sure if I tried to convince people that it was REALLY made for adults and was super heavy and deep they'd roll their eyes. Heck, I would too.

So in short, yeah, I suppose people COULD make fun of you for liking cartoons. But I think that probably has more to do with how defensive cartoon fans get over their shows. I've noticed on this board a LOT of people creating threads about how certain kids shows are really made for adults (like "Would a DCAU show work on HBO?") that border on the delusional. I have no doubt that this type of attitude in real life would lead to being made fun of. It's human nature for bullies to go after a perceived victim's weak spot and if they sense that a person is defensive about watching kids shows they'll do that. If the person who likes kids cartoons doesn't actually have a chip on their shoulder most adults who find out they like kids shows couldn't care less.

Fone Bone, that was probably the smartest thing I've read in this entire thread.

I'll be 29 next month and I don't hear negative remarks from any of my friends and co-workers for liking stuff like Spongebob, Tom and Jerry or whathaveyou. It's my thing, I enjoy it and the people I know are mature enough to let me do my thing.

But the nonsense indeed happens in school where - as Fone Bone said - people are just looking for excuses to pick on others and the one's being targeted are the one's who are trying to justify their interests a little more than they have to.

To be honest, as much as I loved cartoons in high school I never really got picked on for it. My guess is that I was really good at drawing cartoons, so my talents made up for it. A lot of my peers loved watching me draw the Simpsons, Darkwing Duck or Animaniacs. And I never looked at cartoons as something more than what they were. So there was no use picking on me because I wasn't going to get into a huff trying to justify my interests.

I remember one kid I met during my senior year of high school. He was a giant anime fan and got picked on constantly for it. But where he and I differed was that he would just explode at anyone who had anything negative to say about the cartoons he liked. IMHO that's just an easy target for anyone.

The mentality - especially these days - is that cartoons are for kids (unless it's Family Guy or South Park). I think that's fact. So just accept it and don't get bent out of shape if someone tell you that. Be mature enough to be a cartoon fan who doesn't care what someone else thinks.

[tb4000]

If you have posters or merchandise featuring classic cartoons or some current cartoons that are viewed kinda "hip" you can get away with it, as most people assume you're just doing it for camp/kitsch value.

[MonkeyFunk]

I think one thing which might be useful pointing out is that MonkeyFunk is from the UK and most of the people here are American. It wouldn't shock me at all if the big anti-cartoon stance is mostly an American (and perhaps Japanese, though that issue is more anti-fandom than anti-the cartoons themselves from what I can gather) phenomenon that other parts of the world aren't affected by to the same extent.

And this would be another interesting discussion point. The UK and USA are culturally very similar - if they've ended up with such different views on animation (something I've speculated on a while back, and has been expanded on in this topic by Rasputin) then I think that's something worth exploring. Anyone else got any thoughts?


I remember one kid I met during my senior year of high school. He was a giant anime fan and got picked on constantly for it. But where he and I differed was that he would just explode at anyone who had anything negative to say about the cartoons he liked. IMHO that's just an easy target for anyone.

Yeah, I kind of had anime fans in the back of my mind when I made this topic. I can't help but notice their tendency to fall headlong into blatant Internet hoaxes like that "ban anime now" petition - suggesting that they really, really want to be a poor, oppressed minority.

I love the "typical conversation" at the start of this essay (http://www.cjas.org/%7Eechen/articles/spring96/03_02c.html):


A: "Hey, what are you doing tonight?"
B: "I'm going to watch some anime."
A: "Anime, what's that?"
B: "You know, Japanese animation."
A: "Oh! You mean, like cartoons?"
B: "NO! ANIME ARE NOT CARTOONS!!!"The author expects us to sympathise with "B", but... well... no comment.

[DarthGonzo]

Yeah, I kind of had anime fans in the back of my mind when I made this topic. I can't help but notice their tendency to fall headlong into blatant Internet hoaxes like that "ban anime now" petition - suggesting that they really, really want to be a poor, oppressed minority.

I love the "typical conversation" at the start of this essay (http://www.cjas.org/%7Eechen/articles/spring96/03_02c.html):

The author expects us to sympathise with "B", but... well... no comment.

Anime and cartoons are the same flippin' thing. Only one has a fancier name that makes it sound more important than it really is. There, I said it.

A cartoon is a cartoon is a cartoon, no matter where it's made.

This post wasn't intended as flamebait or anything. Definitely not my intention. By to be brutally honest, the link pretty much illustrates everything I find wrong with many anime fans. Anime needs to be seperate from American cartoons and put on some sort of pedestal, or else their world falls apart.

[Blackstar]

Anime and cartoons are the same flippin' thing. Only one has a fancier name that makes it sound more important than it really is. There, I said it.

A cartoon is a cartoon is a cartoon, no matter what where it's made.

Quoted for truth, my friend. I can't stand how hardcore anime fans want to think that anime is somehow above the animation from every other nation by putting it in it's own category. If it's drawn and animated, it's a cartoon, regardless of it's country of origin. Period.

[DarthGonzo]

Quoted for truth, my friend. I can't stand how hardcore anime fans want to think that anime is somehow above the animation from every other nation by putting it in it's own category. If it's drawn and animated, it's a cartoon, regardless of it's country of origin. Period.

Darn, you quoted my post before I edited it. :D

And applying this point to the current topic: it's this type of "anime is superior and must be respected" attitude that results in so many anime fans being insanely easy topics in high school.

Again using the kid I knew in high school as an easy example: all it took was someone (anyone) calling Dragonball Z "Dragonballz" in his presence and he would just fall apart. Flailing wildly, face turning red and whining about how uncool it is to disrespect anime. So of course everyone kept doing it.

[Rasputin]

And this would be another interesting discussion point. The UK and USA are culturally very similar - if they've ended up with such different views on animation (something I've speculated on a while back, and has been expanded on in this topic by Rasputin) then I think that's something worth exploring. Anyone else got any thoughts?

I'm slightly hesitant, personally, because Britain and America have roughly similar animated viewing habits. Namely Spongebob in the mornings and Simpsons in the evenings. Although the reason why our viewing habits are similar tends to be because American kids watch American shows and British kids watch American shows too. America has a massive and dynamic industry dedicated to kids animated content, while in Britain baby boomer execs at the illustrious Children's Auntie Beeb tend to sponsor nostalgic throwbacks to their rose-tinted Bagpuss-filled childhoods and then wonder why no one watches them.

This has left animation a decidedly amateur activity indulged in by enthusiasts, although British animators are somewhat lucky in this regard since the Big British Castle and Channel 4 provide plenty of platforms for artists to showcase this work. They're treated like art pieces at the Tate Modern, as means for artists to get something out of their system in as dense and confusing a fashion as possible. Unlike in France, this subsidisation isn't typically provided with a view towards future commercial exploitation. It's mostly done for its own sake.

On the one hand, this leads to technically innovative, narratively intriguing works that takes full advantage of what the medium has to offer and has given animation in Britain a veneer of respectability. On the other hand, it leaves British children's telly an Americanised, depleted, unimaginative wasteland; one of the richest traditions for children's literature in the western world going gloriously unused. A trade-off that I'm not entirely sure was worth it. I'd favour the French model of indulging art student's whims and then using their developed talents to invest in a home-grown industry.

[MonkeyFunk]

On the one hand, this leads to technically innovative, narratively intriguing works that takes full advantage of what the medium has to offer and has given animation in Britain a veneer of respectability. On the other hand, it leaves British children's telly an Americanised, depleted, unimaginative wasteland

Well, at least that makes an interesting contrast with American cartoons. Over there it's the other way round - massive commercial industry, but an independent sector that also seems to promote physical comedy (Don Hertzfeldt and Bill Plympton) over more offbeat entries from people like Emily Hubley.


it leaves British children's telly an Americanised, depleted, unimaginative wasteland

Someone needs to save kids' TV (http://www.savekidstv.org.uk/). We don't want to end up with badass wombles (http://www.britishkidstv.com/).


I'd favour the French model of indulging art student's whims and then using their developed talents to invest in a home-grown industry.

I don't know much about the French scene, but I think Canada has a similar "best of both" thing going on - the National Film Board funds more experimental fare, while, from what I understand, a government-imposed quota on TV animation ensures a healthy commercial industry. Maybe we should try that.

[Racattack!Force]

Again using the kid I knew in high school as an easy example: all it took was someone (anyone) calling Dragonball Z "Dragonballz" in his presence and he would just fall apart. Flailing wildly, face turning red and whining about how uncool it is to disrespect anime. So of course everyone kept doing it.
That's just funny. I see why they kept doing it. :shrug: This topic has become quite interesting. The views expressed are full of worldly wisdom. So, there is less of this "Cartoons are for kids" talk in UK? I wouldn't really think that usually.

[Rasputin]

Well, at least that makes an interesting contrast with American cartoons. Over there it's the other way round - massive commercial industry, but an independent sector that also seems to promote physical comedy (Don Hertzfeldt and Bill Plympton) over more offbeat entries from people like Emily Hubley.

You know...considering we appear to be acting as a tag-team duo of whinging, over-educated Brits...keeping up persistent abuse the 'merkins animation industry doesn't seem entirely prudent considering we're hardly achieving top marks either.

Intrepid colonials of the board...we love you. Really. Honestly. We're criticising your cartoons to high heaven because we care.


Someone needs to save kids' TV (http://www.savekidstv.org.uk/). We don't want to end up with badass wombles (http://www.britishkidstv.com/).

Philip Pullman's headlining a campaign? Nice.

Hopefully not too off-topic, but I always thought His Dark Materials would have worked so much better as a serialised animated series along the Mysterious Cities of Gold model. Even if Northern Lights consisted of the typical 6-episode run that constitutes 'series' over here, it'd still be a longer collective running time than that over-crammed mess of a motion picture. It'd be animated, so creating a massive fantasy world wouldn't cost $180million, and it would be intended for domestic consumption, thereby ensuring it didn't engage in an ineffectual attempt to be all things to all people.

Of course, it would never happen, but a man can dream...

[Isondill]

I think some people genuinely believe that animation is a medium for children alone. Despite this, everything that I have personally experienced seems to indicate that this is not such a wide-spread cultural problem. It is a problem with the individual in question if that is as far as they are willing to look at animation. The arguments being presented in this thread are intriguing but most people I have encountered have been responsible adults capable of respecting each others tastes.

As for the Batman: Mask of the Phantasm question posed I think that is due to poor marketing and a belief from movie-goers that it was in direct correlation to the series. Despite the rave acclaim for the live-action series Sex and the City and The X Files I believe their movie counter-parts will not fare well with those unfamiliar with the TV series themselves. I think the same is true with animation. Batman: The Animated Series wasn't exactly a hit show with adults right? After all, it aired on Saturday Mornings or Weekday Afternoons. So why would they flock to see a movie that was for fans of the show?

[MonkeyFunk]

You know...considering we appear to be acting as a tag-team duo of whinging, over-educated Brits...keeping up persistent abuse the 'merkins animation industry doesn't seem entirely prudent considering we're hardly achieving top marks either.

Intrepid colonials of the board...we love you. Really. Honestly. We're criticising your cartoons to high heaven because we care.

Hey, I wasn't really abusing their industry, just pointing out that their commercial sector is bigger than their indie sector! Doesn't make it bad. We all love farting CGI animals.


Hopefully not too off-topic, but I always thought His Dark Materials would have worked so much better as a serialised animated series along the Mysterious Cities of Gold model. Even if Northern Lights consisted of the typical 6-episode run that constitutes 'series' over here, it'd still be a longer collective running time than that over-crammed mess of a motion picture. It'd be animated, so creating a massive fantasy world wouldn't $180million, and it would be intended for domestic consumption, thereby ensuring it didn't engage in an ineffectual attempt to be all things to all people.

I can remember thinking that the books have a rather Miyazakian quality about them - little girl protagonist, steampunk flying machines, even some reveling in natural surroundings (the Mulefa). Turns out that the Rough Guide to His Dark Materials agrees with me.

Wonder if something like your scenario would have happened if, like Japan, our kids TV coped with low budgets by focusing on animation, as opposed to bubble-wrap aliens* and scary Cary Grant puppets in spaceships**.

*Although these have their place.
**These don't.

[Joe]

I don't know much about the French scene, but I think Canada has a similar "best of both" thing going on - the National Film Board funds more experimental fare, while, from what I understand, a government-imposed quota on TV animation ensures a healthy commercial industry. Maybe we should try that.

I agree that there does seem to be a bit of a lack of more experimental animation pieces on U.S. television. Most of the stuff that is available are all foreign made pieces that air on the International Film Channel. Despite this, at least film schools in the U.S. do acknowledge that animation is merely another form of filmmaking art. My instructor showed both both Walt Disney and Ub Iwerks' The Skeleton Dance as well as Piet Kroon's T.R.A.N.S.I.T. and Anthony Lucas's The Mysterious Geographic Explorations of Jasper Morello.

[Rasputin]

Wonder if something like your scenario would have happened if, like Japan, our kids TV coped with low budgets by focusing on animation, as opposed to bubble-wrap aliens* and scary Cary Grant puppets in spaceships**.

*Although these have their place.
**These don't.

I suppose it's one of those what-ifs that we'll never know the answer to. Might as well concoct a scenario where Mosley came to power in the mid-'30s, resulting in Britain joining the Axis powers and getting fire-bombed to oblivion by American B-29s, rising from the ashes of occupation to a pinnacle where Rover hybrids are the world's most popular cars and everyone's playing on Sinclair Dual-Screens on the tube to work. Like I did. Just now.

Something like that came to mind when I came across stuff on sixties girls' comics like Bunty and their ilk. A few more years to assert themselves and they could have turned into a genre of genuine, home-grown, honest-to-god British shoujo. Them's the breaks, I guess...

[The Irishman]

This has left animation a decidedly amateur activity indulged in by enthusiasts, although British animators are somewhat lucky in this regard since the Big British Castle and Channel 4 provide plenty of platforms for artists to showcase this work. They're treated like art pieces at the Tate Modern, as means for artists to get something out of their system in as dense and confusing a fashion as possible. Unlike in France, this subsidisation isn't typically provided with a view towards future commercial exploitation. It's mostly done for its own sake.

Rasputin, I SALUTE Channel 4 for what they do for animators and animation fans. I sorely miss it now that I'm on the far side of the pond. :(

[MonkeyFunk]

Well, there's still time. What with Flash and all, building an animation industry should be easier than ever. We just need to get over our funding crisis. In the meantime... *cheers on Philip Pullman*

(He's a Wallace and Gromit fan, you know)


Rasputin, I SALUTE Channel 4 for what they do for animators and animation fans. I sorely miss it now that I'm on the far side of the pond. :(

I don't know if you saw, but a while back I reported that Channel 4 was teaming up with Aardman to make a website (http://www.4mations.tv/) showcasing animated shorts, both from 4's back catalogue and freshly-submitted ones. Something to look forward to.

[The Irishman]

I don't know if you saw, but a while back I reported that Channel 4 was teaming up with Aardman to make a website (http://www.4mations.tv/) showcasing animated shorts, both from 4's back catalogue and freshly-submitted ones. Something to look forward to.

Ah, touche, I remember reading about that a while ago. So, yes, I will be keeping an eye on it.

[ShadowDemon]

I think one thing which might be useful pointing out is that MonkeyFunk is from the UK and most of the people here are American. It wouldn't shock me at all if the big anti-cartoon stance is mostly an American (and perhaps Japanese, though that issue is more anti-fandom than anti-the cartoons themselves from what I can gather) phenomenon that other parts of the world aren't affected by to the same extent.

Animae is a very different creature from "cartoons" (ie, American style animated material), and it is animae that most Japanese adults follow, not "American style".

[Peter Paltridge]

Why, my one brother who is possibly one of the biggest *******s I have ever met even makes fun of me, he makes all kinds of dumb comments when I'm watching TV on Saturday mornings like; "There's a reason it says 4Kids TV and Kids'WB! in the corner, cause it's for kids." Sometimes he'll even go as far as calling me a 40yr Old virgin. I've learned to ignore comments like these from people but it does get annoying. Yet these comments come from people who have no problem watching Family Guy, South Park, Drawn Together, and other crappy cartoons like those. Oh I forgot those are "mature" cartoons. These people also have the same mentality on videogames, unless the game requires you to blow someones brains out and if the characters aren't cussing all the time the game is for little kids and are not "real" games.
You know what they say about people who act like that....they're compensating for something.

[ShadowDemon]

Quoted for truth, my friend. I can't stand how hardcore anime fans want to think that anime is somehow above the animation from every other nation by putting it in it's own category. If it's drawn and animated, it's a cartoon, regardless of it's country of origin. Period.

Not quite, as I stated a few moments ago. Animae has distinct CONTENT differences which separate it cleanly from American style animation (aka "cartoons''). Graphic violence, and the frequency of "adult situations" are two of the primary distinctions between the two genres.

Not that I'm defending "animae snobs"...frankly, true animae doesn't do much for me. The closest I've come to liking the genre is liking "Robotech" and a few of the other "Japanimation" titles (distinct from their animae origins by dint of their reediting and rewriting).

[Dudley]

I don't think the mentality exists.
I know it exists.

No matter how old they are, someone always thinks cartoons are for kids.

[DarthGonzo]

Not quite, as I stated a few moments ago. Animae has distinct CONTENT differences which separate it cleanly from American style animation (aka "cartoons''). Graphic violence, and the frequency of "adult situations" are two of the primary distinctions between the two genres.

Right.

But that still doesn't mean you can't call a Japanese animated program or movie a "cartoon" because that's what it is. The content and style is different but it's still a cartoon.

[Silverstar]

Not quite, as I stated a few moments ago. Animae has distinct CONTENT differences which separate it cleanly from American style animation (aka "cartoons''). Graphic violence, and the frequency of "adult situations" are two of the primary distinctions between the two genres.

Like there haven't been any Western cartoons that boast adult situations and graphic violence. HBO's Spawn, Family Guy and Drawn Together say hello, as do features such as American Pop and Heavy Metal.

Content doesn't change what an animated project is; if it's drawn and animated, then it's a cartoon, be it adult, kiddie or somewhere in between.

[ShadowDemon]

Right.

But that still doesn't mean you can't call a Japanese animated program or movie a "cartoon" because that's what it is. The content and style is different but it's still a cartoon.

In the strict technical/dictionary sense, you are correct.

What many amimae fans object to (and I kind'a see their point) is equivilating animae to American cartoons simply on the basis of both being ink/paint on celluloid.

It's like entering a "Heinz 57" dog alongside a purebred in the WKC dog show. Both may be dogs, and both may have outstanding qualities to their fanciers and supporters, but clearly the mutt doesn't belong at Westmister.

(For the record, I am ascribing the role of "mutt" [with it's implications of inferiority] to NEITHER type of animation. I use the term to describe differences so great, that they make broad-brush linkages based on a simple physical description untenable.)

[ShadowDemon]

Like there haven't been any Western cartoons that boast adult situations and graphic violence. HBO's Spawn, Family Guy and Drawn Together say hello, as do features such as American Pop and Heavy Metal.

Content doesn't change what an animated project is; if it's drawn and animated, then it's a cartoon, be it adult, kiddie or somewhere in between.

I'm sorry you apparently cannot see the myriad of social, cultural, and stylistic factors involved...you are so fixated on the few similarities that you cannot see the mountain of DIFFERENCES between the two.

It is no more appropriate to compare animae and American cartoons than it would be to compare a Ford Escort and a Lambourgini sports car. Both are cars, but are entirely different designs to perform different functions and with different expectations.

[Silverstar]

I'm sorry you apparently cannot see the myriad of social, cultural, and stylistic factors involved...you are so fixated on the few similarities that you cannot see the mountain of DIFFERENCES between the two.

No need to feel sorry for me....my life's going pretty good right now. ;)

And no, I have no problem seeing the differences between anime (not 'animae') and USAnimation, it's just that all that is moot. There are also a lot of cultural, social and stylistic factors involved which distinguish Candian, British, French and Italian cartoons from American ones as well, but that doesn't make them any less cartoons. Anime elitists like to say that anime is 'something more than mere cartoons' in order to put it over animation from every other nation and to make themselves seem deeper and more cultured than Joe and Jane Average, but here's the thing: in Japan anime means "cartoons".

Using the car analogy, yes, a Rolls-Royce is in a different class from a Ford minivan. But both devices have an engine, 4 wheels, a motor and a chassis, therefore both are cars. A Rolls-Royce isn't somehow not a car just because it's imported, more expensive and classier. By the same principle, an anime is not somehow something else besides a cartoon just because of its' content. (BTW, not all animes are sophisticated, adult and graphically violent; they cover as wide a range of subject matter and are aimed at just as varied audiences as Western shows are.

All pretentions aside, a carton is a cartoon is a cartoon, regardless of where it's made.

[DarthGonzo]

Gah, this is ridiculous.

Social, stylistic and cultural differences simply do not change the fact that Japanese animation is just as much a cartoon as the likes of whatever is released in any other country.

Like I've said numerous times: a cartoon is a cartoon is a cartoon. It doesn't matter where it's made, who makes it or what the content is.

The word "cartoon" is all-encompassing. At least that's how I feel.

[Racattack!Force]

And no, I have no problem seeing the differences between anime (not 'animae') and USAnimation, it's just that all that is moot. There are also a lot of cultural, social and stylistic factors involved which distinguish Candian, British, French and Italian cartoons from American ones as well, but that doesn't make them any less cartoons. Anime elitists like to say that anime is 'something more than mere cartoons' in order to put it over animation from every other nation and to make themselves seem deeper and more cultured than Joe and Jane Average, but here's the thing: in Japan anime means "cartoons".

Using the car analogy, yes, a Rolls-Royce is in a different class from a Ford minivan. But both devices have an engine, 4 wheels, a motor and a chassis, therefore both are cars. A Rolls-Royce isn't somehow not a car just because it's imported, more expensive and classier. By the same principle, an anime is not somehow something else besides a cartoon just because of its' content. (BTW, not all animes are sophisticated, adult and graphically violent; they cover as wide a range of subject matter and are aimed at just as varied audiences as Western shows are.

All pretentions aside, a carton is a cartoon is a cartoon, regardless of where it's made.
Great. Total agreement? Good. Now that we got that out of the way, let's get back on topic.

[Kagetsu]

Like there haven't been any Western cartoons that boast adult situations and graphic violence. HBO's Spawn, Family Guy and Drawn Together say hello, as do features such as American Pop and Heavy Metal.

Content doesn't change what an animated project is; if it's drawn and animated, then it's a cartoon, be it adult, kiddie or somewhere in between. I like you, but I'm choosing to disagree. Of the "adult" group you've mentioned, Spawn I'd like to see and Family guy I've seen. Producers in the US have the idea that ugly words and base stupidity,,, that is sensor cleared for 16 and above is "adult". While I won't bring in the true meaning of over 18 "adult", there really is a different appeal for adult viewers that transcends stuff kids aren't allowed to hear. We understand emotion differently, at all age levels,,, we were young once. We also accept failure and compromise. But make no mistake, we like winning with force when we can. As I consider myself a "childish adult", My humour is both simple and emotionally complex.

(No onesw going to understand a word I'm saying, are they? I'm used to it, to the point that I can easily baffle people with complexity. I've also seen right through people trying to showball me.)

Really, it is on topic. I mention cartoons around , and mostly I get back "AS" comedy.

[ShadowDemon]

Great. Total agreement? Good. Now that we got that out of the way, let's get back on topic.

By your guys' logic (if you can call it that), we might as well get rid of ALL specific labels for things and live in a Dick Tracy "generic" world. Anything from a Great Dane to a Chihuahua is just a "dog". If you want to paint something "blue", there is only one color to pick from for EVERYBODY. The Wall St. Journal and the National Enquirer are both "the News".

[MonkeyFunk]

"cartoons" (ie, American style animated material)


American style animation (aka "cartoons'').

Define "American style".


By your guys' logic (if you can call it that), we might as well get rid of ALL specific labels for things and live in a Dick Tracy "generic" world. Anything from a Great Dane to a Chihuahua is just a "dog". If you want to paint something "blue", there is only one color to pick from for EVERYBODY. The Wall St. Journal and the National Enquirer are both "the News".

While by your logic, certain breeds of dog aren't actually dogs. O...kay. And there was me thinking that this topic had been saved.

Look, if you want to be taken seriously, stop using dog and car analogies and talk about something closer to home - namely, live action cinema. Would referring to both Schindler's List and Plan 9 from Outer Space as "films" be bad in your eyes?

[Blackstar]

By your guys' logic (if you can call it that), we might as well get rid of ALL specific labels for things and live in a Dick Tracy "generic" world. Anything from a Great Dane to a Chihuahua is just a "dog". If you want to paint something "blue", there is only one color to pick from for EVERYBODY. The Wall St. Journal and the National Enquirer are both "the News".

Yes. Yes they are. Aquamarine is no more less a shade of blue than navy Blue or Baby Blue. They aren't different colors, just different shades of the same color. They're all still blue.


Dude, you're just venting now. Let me just say one final thing about this so we can (please) return to the subject of this thread:

In Japan, the word anime means "animation", therefore, in it's native country, the tern anime refers to ANYTHING that is animated. In Japan, Help! It's the Hair Bear Bunch is just as much an anime as Ghost in the Shell is. Popeye is an anime in Japan, so is Mission Hill, The Raccoons and Winx Club. Therefore, like it or not, anime = cartoon. You may want to think that anime is somehow better or different, but it isn't. Just because a few anime snobs choose to think that anime is deeper and more intricate and is therefore superior to the animation from any and every other nation and yadda, yaddda, yadda, (which incidentally, is not a fact, merely a common opinion among the anime snobs), that most certainly is not the case. That doesn't make Akira any less a cartoon than say, Tom & Jerry or The Flintstones. The fact remains that anime, regardless how one regards it, is still animation and is still therefore (say it with me now), a....CARTOON.

Let

it

go.

[ShadowDemon]

Define "American style".

Done in the American fashion, as opposed to the Japanese fashion. There are a ton of technical distinctions, from writing to character design, shot construction, "camera" movement within the frame, etc.




While by your logic, certain breeds of dog aren't actually dogs. O...kay. And there was me thinking that this topic had been saved.

Look, if you want to be taken seriously, stop using dog and car analogies and talk about something closer to home - namely, live action cinema. Would referring to both Schindler's List and Plan 9 from Outer Space as "films" be bad in your eyes?

You still aren't getting it. For terms of comparative analysis, it is TOO SIMPLISTIC to simply refer to any animated subject as "cartoons", just as it is too simplistic to refer to any two dogs or cars as such even if it IS accurate.

Yes, I would object to simply comparing Plan 9 with Schindler's List because they are two completely different types of film (B film and war drama, specifically), written for completely different audiences, with different sensibilities, different different production values, .
so on and so forth. There is no productive comparison to be made, even though they are both technically films, because they are just TOO different.

Same with animation. Frankly, even "American cartoons" is too broad a brush for me...is it really accurate to put the old Looney Tunes shorts (one off funny stories) in the same basket as Justice Leage (ongoing weekly series), or Mask of the Phantasm (feature length film)?

[Silverstar]

Oy vey.

Look, ShadowDemon, if we can all just agree to disagree, will you please just drop the elitist anime thing so we can get this thread back on point? Let's NOT turn this into another "anime VS cartoons" argument. There have already been tons of threads about this tired debate.

Like the man says,

Let.

It.

Go.

Already.

[ShadowDemon]

Oy vey.

Look, ShadowDemon, if we can all just agree to disagree, will you please just drop the elitist anime thing so we can get this thread back on point?

Like the man says, Let. It. Go. Already.


1) I already said I don't even LIKE anime, so quit saying I'm an "anime elitist". My point has nothing to do with which is "better", only that they are different.

2) We are on point...the OT is "is there a 'cartoons are for kids' " attitude? To debate that, we must define our terms, and I maintain it is inaccurate to place anime in the same basket with American animation, and lump the short subject with the 1/2 hour continuing and "full feature length" formats and call the whole thing "cartoons".

[Blackstar]

Seriously, enough quibbling over terms. Let's stick to the subject at hand and not get into any more of that, shall we? Enough time has been wasted on that nonsense as it is. If we use a separate term for Japanese animation, then in all fairness we would have to come up with a specific term for EVERY other nations' animation style as well. For the purpose of this discussion, it's just easier to call them all cartoons. If you don't want to do that, just call it all animation, M'kay?

[Jackson54]

Cartoons only for kids? Oh please, and I'm Queen of Sukowalili Island.

Seriously, if cartoons are only for kids, what did they make South Park and Family Guy for?

[Blackstar]

Seriously, if cartoons are only for kids, what did they make South Park and Family Guy for?

Well, I'm an adult and I enjoy Looney Tunes and Animaniacs! more than I do South Park or Family Guy. What does that say about me?

You're missing the point. No one is debating that South Park and Family Guy are made for adults. That's not the point of this discussion. The question is: Have you ever been looked down upon or ridiculed for liking more general audience aimed cartoons such as Tiny Toon Adventures or Scooby Doo?

[Fone Bone]

Fone Bone, that was probably the smartest thing I've read in this entire thread.

I'll be 29 next month and I don't hear negative remarks from any of my friends and co-workers for liking stuff like Spongebob, Tom and Jerry or whathaveyou. It's my thing, I enjoy it and the people I know are mature enough to let me do my thing.

But the nonsense indeed happens in school where - as Fone Bone said - people are just looking for excuses to pick on others and the one's being targeted are the one's who are trying to justify their interests a little more than they have to.

To be honest, as much as I loved cartoons in high school I never really got picked on for it. My guess is that I was really good at drawing cartoons, so my talents made up for it. A lot of my peers loved watching me draw the Simpsons, Darkwing Duck or Animaniacs. And I never looked at cartoons as something more than what they were. So there was no use picking on me because I wasn't going to get into a huff trying to justify my interests.

I remember one kid I met during my senior year of high school. He was a giant anime fan and got picked on constantly for it. But where he and I differed was that he would just explode at anyone who had anything negative to say about the cartoons he liked. IMHO that's just an easy target for anyone.

The mentality - especially these days - is that cartoons are for kids (unless it's Family Guy or South Park). I think that's fact. So just accept it and don't get bent out of shape if someone tell you that. Be mature enough to be a cartoon fan who doesn't care what someone else thinks.I feel sorry for a lot of cartoon fans. I really do. They DO have huge chips on their shoulders. It's probably just me but when someone screams at me that there is nothing wrong with one of their fandoms one of my first reactions is to think there MUST be something wrong with it if they are getting so defensive about it. It's human nature. People don't like to be lectured and someone trying to "educate" someone that Animaniacs is really made for adults is just more likely to make the person being lectured think that the other person is nuts. I like cartoons especially cartoons that are fun and kid friendly. I think a LOT of people in fandom would be much happier if they were able to acknowledge that their fandoms aren't as deep as they insist they are.

[MonkeyFunk]

Done in the American fashion, as opposed to the Japanese fashion. There are a ton of technical distinctions, from writing to character design, shot construction, "camera" movement within the frame, etc.

Outline some of these differences.


There is no productive comparison to be made, even though they are both technically films, because they are just TOO different.

So you don't think they should be on IMDB together, then? Should there be a seperate IMDB for every conceivable type of film?


Frankly, even "American cartoons" is too broad a brush for me...is it really accurate to put the old Looney Tunes shorts (one off funny stories) in the same basket as Justice Leage (ongoing weekly series), or Mask of the Phantasm (feature length film)?

So why, then, did you bring up the concept of "American style animation" into this topic?

You're finally getting the idea - animation isn't divided into "American" and "Japanese" halves. There are countless little categories that make it up. Dozens and dozens of the damn things. So many, in fact, that isolating them all is impossible. Which is why sometimes the most managable thing to do is to lump them all together. There.

[Racattack!Force]

1) I already said I don't even LIKE anime, so quit saying I'm an "anime elitist". My point has nothing to do with which is "better", only that they are different.
Basically they are all cartoons. But I'm in favor of giving some sort of label to animation from different countries. Example - Japanese anime/anime, French animation/Franime/animè, etc. Let's just accept that it's all cartoons, no matter the style. :shrug: Cartoon is the basic term, while anime (in western definition) can be a specific sub-category.

[Justy]

Since it's caused some friction during the course of this thread, I won't spend time debating the correct terms to use. I'd say just call it all animation no matter where it comes from or its tone or depth--it's all animation whether it's anime, classic Looney Tunes, today's adult cartoons, Pixar CGI films, or experimental animation. The differences come from tone, depth of story/characterizations, and targeted audience.

I've been a fan of animation for as long as I remember. It was only in the late 70s and 80s that I became aware of the differences between what was shown here in the US (on TV and in movies) and in other countries (especially Japan). It was the depth of storytelling and characterizations in anime that attracted me for the most part. While I didn't stop watching what was available here, I wanted to spread the word about anime and that led me to start an anime club in my area in 1987. During the late 80s and early 90s, my main focus was to educate people about what was out there and the potential of animation to entertain people of all ages. These efforts led me to encounter many, many people who had the mindset that, if it is animated, it's for kids. While I'm positive that this attitude is not as prevelent today (thanks to anime's exposure on TV), I think it's still valid with a good portion of the public (especially, evidently, those execs in charge with greenlighting animated projects on Disney, Nick, and CN). True, I don't get hassled by anyone other than family these days, but that doesn't mean the attitude isn't still around.

A few people early in the thread mentioned embarrassment as a reason why they don't defend their love for animation. Just the fact that this was brought up sort of proves my point about the attitude still being around, although I will admit that a lot of the teasing that people get comes from young people who play the "I will make fun of it (and you) 'cause most people don't think it's cool to watch animation" card. For my part, I'm battling that by encouraging people to discuss stuff they watched (and watch today) as part of a "Guilty Pleasures" panel I've hosted at Metrocon since 2004. People seem to get a lot of joy out of "coming clean" about the stuff they watched as kids and tend to watch today.

[Dr.Pepper]

Yeah, it seems that most of the "animation is for kids" type of comments are from middle/high school kids. Particularly those defensive about thier percieved masculinity.
Comments like those weren't really the norm at my middle school until the 8th grade. I remember in the 6th grade I talked to these two people about CN for two whole science periods. Good times.

[Alph]

You still aren't getting it. For terms of comparative analysis, it is TOO SIMPLISTIC to simply refer to any animated subject as "cartoons", just as it is too simplistic to refer to any two dogs or cars as such even if it IS accurate.



The thing is, you can refer to two types of dogs as just "two dogs" (heck, there's a cartoon named "Two Stupid Dogs" and the dogs aren't the same kind). You can also refer to two kinds of cars as "two cars", two kinds of films as "two films", and two kinds of sandwitches as "two sandwitches".

Simplification is the whole point of using general terms. When people call anime "cartoons" they are using "cartoons" synonymously with "animation", which is a general term. You're using "cartoons" synonymously with "American animation" (a specific term), which isn't the definition of "cartoon" as far as the dictionary is concerned.


Basically it's like this:

A: "Hey, what are you doing tonight?"
B: "I'm going to go play frisbee with my Great Dane."
A: "Great Dane, what's that?"
B: "You know, a large type of canine."
A: "Oh! You mean, a dog?"
B: "NO! GREAT DANES ARE NOT DOGS!!!"

[Jeff Harris]

To answer the original question, yes. The "cartoons are for kids" mentality does exist. Personally speaking, it doesn't exist for me, but that's only because most of my family have always been fans of animation, and the people I hung out with are also cartoon lovers.

The mentality is more prominent in the US than any place else in the world because in the years after World War II, the attitude was festered. The post-war culture presented animation as children's entertainment in the form of matinees and television anthologies hosted by adults in funny costumes. The Flintstones originally was sponsored by a cigarette company, and yet, some parent groups pressured ABC to stop them from advertising cigarettes with cartoons. So, the Flintstones and the Rubbles became parents, and Madison Avenue marketed Flintstone-themed . . . everything to cater to kids. Toys, dolls, coloring books, and the two products that remain to this day: Flintstones vitamins and and Pebbles cereal.

By the time the baby boomers became college-aged, an appreciation for animation as a cultural art form was born. A crop of animators, inspired by the works they watched, was created, and they, like their elders, created fare they wanted to see. But the status quo held the belief that animation is just for kids, and any such works became hidden from public view and yet enjoyed a somewhat underground following. Even older shorts that weren't all that known to the public were watched by older audiences. That attitude continued in the 70s and mid-80s. Animators from that era lectured in colleges and festivals all over the country and serious studies in animation history really got started around this time. Of Mice and Magic is still one of the only real animation history books that still has relevence to me.

In the 80s, the first half of baby-boomers became parents, and their children grew up to watch the new crop of animation created by folks that had numerous influences to inspire them, from animation from Japan, Canada, and England to comics from Jack Kirby, Neal Adams, Gil Kane, John Romita, George Perez, and Alex Toth. The classics found life in syndication without being hosted by adults in funny suits. However, some baby-boomers "grew up" looking at television shows from the likes of Cannell, Marshall, Lear, and Larson, movies from folks like Allen, Brooks, Coppella, Spielberg, and Lucas, among others, and feel anything "animated" is beneath them. These folks gained power in industry and instilled those beliefs in the medium. These were the folks that helped transform Disney into what it is today. Cutesy, marketable pablum became the norm on broadcast television while shows aimed to sell useless pieces of plastic were prominent in syndication. There were exceptions, shows that weren't made solely to sell merchandise that just clicked with audiences. Rarer ones were the commercialized shows that were actually good.

The second crop of boomers grew into prominence in the 90s. New animators, inspired by the shorts and shows they grew up with in the 70s and 80s, were coming into the industry, discovering new technology as well as new outlets to present their shows. Just as they were doing it, the old guard pushed for legislation to limit programming on children's television and grew shocked at the notion that The Simpsons actually exists on television.

"We need more families like the Waltons and less families like the Simpsons."

George H.W. Bush said that. In public. That statement echoed a lot of sentiments in this country that animation is supposed to be just for kids. He could have said the Bundys. He could have said the Connors. But he said the Simpsons to illustrate (no pun intended) the point he was trying to made, and what seemed more "un-American" than an adult series like The Simpsons (trying to hold back the laughter at the notion that The Simpsons was once considered "adult")?

The post-Simpsons generation changed the attitude of animation in this country for a while. We got a 24-hour cartoon network out of it as well as more original animation productions for diverse audiences on many outlets to boot. But the persistance that animation is just for kids remained in the culture. Though a lot of in-roads within the animation industry was made, outlets, retailers, and distributors still treated animation as kids' entertainment.

Where are the Looney Tunes and classic Disney animation collections located? Not in the Animation section (no such section exists in a lot of retailers with the exception of the segregated Anime sections) but rather in the Family Entertainment section (although a few do put the Looney Tunes collections in the Comedy section, but that's a rarity). Older shows are often out of reach of the general audience, pushed aside to accomodate for newer, kid-friendly products. Some titles and shorts will never see the light of day because some studios believe there's no market for them. Why doesn't more "hard" PG-13 and R-rated animated films get made or distributed nationally? Why does "adult" animation have to be seen in late-night slots? If the mentality that "cartoons are just for kids" didn't exist, then these issues would never be made.

Otherwise, places like Toon Zone, Animation Nation, and others that celebrate animation in all its forms would be bigger than MySpace or Facebook.

[tb4000]

The irony is that adults are the ones that make cartoons, not kids. So technically we shouldn't be ashamed to like them. I guess the other archetype is that if you're a grown person that works on cartoons, you must be some closet freak. While there are a few of those peeps in the industry that do embody that(we know who they are), that's definitely not the case.

[Jeff Harris]

The irony is that adults are the ones that make cartoons, not kids. I never liked that excuse because:

1) Kids don't make cartoons. Some do, but they're not availiable for mass audiences.

2) Adults make tripe like Teletubbies, Hannah Montana, and American Idol, stuff aimed towards kids but not really good.