Justice League "War World, Parts 1 & 2" Talkback (Spoilers)

[James Harvey]

http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jl/talkback.jpg (http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jl/)

Episode #12 - War World, Part 1
Original Airdate - February 24th, 2002

Superman is captured and taken to a world, where he must, Participate in "Gladiator" type battles.


Episode #13 - War World, Part 2
Original Airdate - March 3rd, 2002

Superman must face down Mongul and Draaga for the fate of himself and the world.

Comments?

[The Guard]

A new Justice League! Excellent!

[BatKid]

I'm hoping this will be a good episode. It seems like months since I've seen the last episode, so hopefully, it will be worth it.

I'm also hoping the voice acting is a bit better than the last one, since the voice actors seem to have improved in the latest episodes.

P.S. You beat me to the post again, Jim. :)

[Batman 80]

I want someone to talk about in detail the Draaga fight with Superman.

[Samhaine]

K, it's during the commercial break, and I just had to ask this: Was I the only one who heard the Superman theme music from StAS at the end of the croc fight? It sounded alot like it, I'll tell you that.

Pretty good so far.

[The Green Hornet]

sigh why cant we get a full story arc in one night? =(

[Bird Boy]

well, I found this episode mediocre. Then again, I never was a huge superman fan...

I doubt if I'd watch this ep again.. :(

ah well, I suppose it was fun to watch for the superman fans!

-BB

[Ricochet]

Is it just me or did the grey guy (Draaga?) look a lot like Doomsday w/out his helmet? Oh, and nice visuals and banter with GL and Hawkgirl in the alley. :D

[Blade1225]

the fight between Draaga (his name?) and superman?
it was basicaly they toss each other around
superman melts the guys ax
the throw big BIG rocks and boulders and each other
and do some punchin in the face

[The New Batman]

Awful. I found this episode to be simply awful. Superman seemed like such a coward in this episode (not that that's much of a surprise) and I don't like it one bit.

[warmachine04]

I didn't get home in time to see the first half but from what I saw the episode was quite good. The battle between Draga and Supes was great. I did like more how Green Lantern and Hawkgirl as good cop/bad cop in that alley. :)

[The Green Hornet]

i just wish superman would get MAD for once and just cut lose

i hope he beats the heck outta mongul after getting smacked around a bit

use some superspeed and heatvision + punches that could be sweet =)

[JohnStewart-GL]

I thought it was great. the fight was great. i like the theme when he fought the croc. His fight with Daaga was really good. Now all i have to say is i think supes isnt a weakling any more.

[Batman 80]

How did the episode end?

[JohnStewart-GL]

Originally posted by Batman 80
How did the episode end?
supes gets blasted by three or four robots.

[Anarky]

I admit I'm totally green to matters beyond Gotham, but I enjoyed tonight's ep, War World Pt 1.

Atta boy Clark!!!
What's the reaction to Mongul? Was he portrayed true to form?
And what abot J'onn J'onzz? What would be in the atmosphere to weaken him so? Where are my Martian experts?

Looking forward to Part 2.
late...

ps: I dig the "Running Man" vibe.

[BatKid]

The ending was Supes beating Draaga in the battle, and then Mongul telling Supes to kill him. Supes refused, and then Mongul sent 3 robots to finish Supes since he disobeyed him. The 3 robots just electrocuted him for lke 5 sec. and J'onn said "No!..."

The episode was ok, but why was Mongul wearing purple? I mean, if he's such a great ruler and all, why can't he wear like green, or blue, or even black? But purple? :confused:

I wish they would air the whole storyarc into one hour, instead of breaking it into 2 parts. It really gets annoying when you just want the episode to end, and your left off with a "cliffhanger".

Wasn't really good, some good parts like GL & HG asking around in the alley. All in all, I just want this story to end, I want the Injustice Gang, dammit! :p

By the way, can anyone tell me or give me a site with al the villains in the past JL storyarcs? I need to find out Mongul's, Draaga's, Felix Faust's, and the Manhunters' origins. Thanks in advance to anyone that gives me their origins.

[Failure]

Eh. It was ok. It's been my least favorite ep from the whole season so far.

Good points:
It was good to see Superman finally wield some of his strength.

Umm... the fight between Superman and Mongol next week should be much better than his fight with Dragaa this week.

Bad points:
Superman's powers still seem watered down. I'd like to see him let loose for once. I dont know if it's the lines or what, but Newburne really struggled with getting any emotion or infliction in his lines (and I've been a Newburne defender).

The Superman/Dragaa fight wasn't all it was cracked up to be. The suspense was lacking and it was also had an overall lack of flow. Go back to STAS where Superman was fighting Kalibak (a similar type of fight in my mind), that was so much more enjoyable to watch than his fight with Dragaa because there was a natural "flow" to the fight, there was suspense. It wasn't just punch. stop. punch. stop. throw rock. stop. blah blah.

Some of the voice acting and dialogue really bugged me. And that goes for almost everyone who spoke. It seemed like they mailed it in at times.

I hope next week turns out better, I'm looking forward to the Mongul/Superman fight, but it's becoming apparent that Mongul is definitely no Darkseid.

[JohnStewart-GL]

so what do you guys think of newbern now? I thought he was good.

[The Green Hornet]

Monguls voice


it was good

but wouldnt KEITH DAVID have made an AWESOME Mongul??

[Karkull]

Originally posted by BatKid
By the way, can anyone tell me or give me a site with al the villains in the past JL storyarcs? I need to find out Mongul's, Draaga's, Felix Faust's, and the Manhunters' origins. Thanks in advance to anyone that gives me their origins.

Go to my website. It will be relocating soon, but for right now it's at:

http://tiger.towson.edu/users/jdavis6/Watchtower

And what's wrong with purple? Not only does it contrast with his yellow skin, purple is classically considered to be the color of royalty (perfect for a Greco-Roman themed character).

Overall, the story was good. I literally felt like I was watching Gladiator all over again. It was great: bread and circuses.

I actually like Mongul now--I don't know if it's because he's voiced by the guy who did Trevor Goodchild from Aeon Flux or the fact that he's like Claudius in Gladiator. Cheers to Bruce Timm for making another unlikeable DC villain likeable!

As for Draaga...damn. He's cool, plus his voice sounds like Lemmy from Motorhead.

Now, the bad: the animation was poor, poor, POOR! And I'm sick of seeing the same background aliens! We need some new ones! Ones that look better! Please!

Oh, and that did sound like Superman's old music when he flew out of the croc pool. Takes me back...

[Terminatah]

Originally posted by BatKid
The episode was ok, but why was Mongul wearing purple? I mean, if he's such a great ruler and all, why can't he wear like green, or blue, or even black? But purple? :confused: Purple is the color of royalty.

-Terminatah

[JohnStewart-GL]

Originally posted by Terminatah
Purple is the color of royalty.

-Terminatah
True

[The Green Hornet]

will we get to see the 2nd rate Mongul-- his SISTER MONGAL???

hehe

[neilf]

Being one of the more critical fans of the show and being a huge Superman fan I have to say... I liked this ep quite a bit. The dialogue was much improved from prior eps. I think that the voice actors they hired from this ep shows the difference good acting can make. I've really given the show quite a bit of criticism but this ep makes me hope that they are starting to improve and find a groove to continue into a 2nd season (when hopefully we'll get some great writers back). Newburn actually did a good job with Superman's portrayal. Even though he "turned the other cheek" he didn't come off quite as wimpy as past eps and you knew why he didn't get into it with Draga (however you sp it). All in all it was a decent effort. Really good fight scene too!

[BatKid]

Originally posted by Karkull


Go to my website. It will be relocating soon, but for right now it's at:

http://tiger.towson.edu/users/jdavis6/Watchtower

Thanks Karkull! Will you be updating with more origins once new villains come?

Also, do you know of any site with pics and more detailed info of these characters? Not in the JL episode, but in the comics. I want to know more about these characters, and how they were originally represented in the comics, including all their costumes, important adventures, etc. Pics with the heroes of the JL and w/ detailed info would be great also. I'm sure this kind of site will probably be hard to find, but it's worth a try.

[FLIPMODE]

It ends with Supes, Refusing to Kill Draaga. Then Supes is Captured by...ROBOTS??? Oh come on.

Anyway, anyone notice the scene from part 2 shows Draaga, with an "S" on his chest. Similar to how Steel, honored Supes. The teaser seemed to imply that, Draaga is a Supes fan now, and will be Killed by Mongul. I want to see part 2, but ONLY with Hopes that Supes get's enraged, and does MORE with his Super Speed and weight lifting and Flight abilities.

Because so Far, I've seen Supes, fight better against Batman. Why could'nt Draaga, strike Supes dead in the Chest with the axe, and have the Axe, crushed, because it can't penetrate Supes. Something cool like that. Supes could have, flew and Picked up Draaga, thousands of feet in the Sky, and launched him back to the ground at full speed, Several times. I mean is'nt that the type of thing YOU would do If you had his powers?

I think This season, we may not get what we want, BUT, Im telling you guys, If we express the Utter disgust in the way Supes is Portrayed in this show to Timm Right Now, we may see a signifacant change by the end of Next season. All they have to do is look at the Any JLA issue, Supes at FULL power, even Pre-Crisis was manageable. Look at the Current JLA, Supes can still push the moon, yet, Batman, WW, Flash still contribute Alot.

Im sure they were scared of Supes being the Savior of every episode, but they went too far. Infact they should cut it out completely! Supes does NOT have to be WEAK, for a JL to exist. No matter how powerfull, he cannot handle everything, NOR figure everything out. So they might aswell, get over it, and put him at full strength.

I think Timm may be haunted by that old joke that say's, "why do you need a Justice League when you have Superman".

Well I think the Mission of this show should have been to prove, why you need a JL, WITHOUT Sacrificing any of Supes abilities. NOW THAT"S CREATIVE WRITING! Not this trash. They took the easy way out with Supes, and it stinks.

Other than Supes, the whole series is great. :mad:

[Anarky]

Originally posted by TheFastestManAlive
Monguls voice


it was good

but wouldnt KEITH DAVID have made an AWESOME Mongul??

Keith David was awesome as Goliath (Gargoyles) & Spawn.
But I'm not sure he would've worked out well as Mongul. Wouldn't he come off as a Darkseid wanna-be with that voice?

I'm all for bringing David's talents to the program. Maybe as Doomsday. ):-)

[JohnStewart-GL]

does anyone besides me want Draaga to live

[BatKid]

Originally posted by FLIPMODE
It ends with Supes refusing to kill Draaga. Then Supes is captured by...ROBOTS??? Oh come on.

LOL! I know! With all that energy from that Sun, don't you think he can handle a few measely robots? :rolleyes:


Originally posted by FLIPMODE
Anyway, anyone notice the scene from part 2 shows Draaga, with an "S" on his chest? Similar to how Steel, honored Supes. The teaser seemed to imply that Draaga is a Supes fan now, and will be killed by Mongul.

I'm not 100% sure if this is correct, but I heard from somewhere that Draaga wears the "S" symbol to show of his shame that he lost to Supes. Supes wouldn't kill him, so now, Draaga has to live with the fact that he was finally beaten. Like I said, I don't know if it's 100% correct, so can someone clarify this?

[RorShaq]

Yeah, I wish someone would tell these writers that Supes is axe-proof, spear proof, and sharp-rock proof. Also, I hope he never sticks his wet finger in a socket, as it would probably kill him given what they've shown electricity doing to him.

[neilf]

Originally posted by RorShaq
Yeah, I wish someone would tell these writers that Supes is axe-proof, spear proof, and sharp-rock proof. Also, I hope he never sticks his wet finger in a socket, as it would probably kill him given what they've shown electricity doing to him.

LOL! That's probably why they don't show him as Clark Kent. If Supes is such a wimp now in JL, imagine what Clark is like now. But seriously, I do think they did a pretty good job on this one. They at least seemed to put a little more into the dialogue and direction (in terms of acting). I really liked Mongul and Draaga. I'm pretty sure you guys did hear STAS music at some point during the croc fight. I watched the Last Son of Krypton with my son today and that music was fresh in my head. I could have sworn I heard it too.

[Anarky]

Man, that ONE alien sure does get around the galaxy.

You know who I mean. That yellow guy w/ the black pony-tail. He first appeared in "The Main Man" as one of the bounty hunters after Lobo & Supes. Then he appeared in "In Blackest Night" attending the trial of John Stewart. His fuzzy friend was also seen in the bar. And now he was seen attending one of Mongul's prize fights.

Who is this alien? Does he have a name? Is he a significant character in the DCU? Or is he Mr. Extra, used to fill up screen time. He kinda reminds me of The Rainbow Wig, the guy who was at all the major sporting events w/ his John 3:16 cue card. Am I wrong or was that guy convicted of murder? I think SI did a follow-up story on him. Hmmm.

[Blade1225]

two questions......

1. what was the thing in the atmosphere that was sapping Martian Manhunter's strength?

2.What did the preview of the next episode show?

[Livewire]

Well, I wasn't impressed with this ep. I hope the second part is better- way better. I found the dialogue to be laughable at some parts. Superman still hasn't gotten out of the 'wimpy stage' imo. Overally, I wasn't thrilled with the first part.

[JLU Dude]

Tonight episode was COOL!!! Mongul was a supercool villain.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy all,

Wow.

I mean, wow.

Now THIS is what I had in mind for Justice League. It managed to balance on the same edge as the original BTAS, managing to be simple and straightforward enough for younger sensibilities, while keeping sophisticated enough for older audiences to enjoy.

This episode really had it all, and should do much to silence the harsher critics on the board (including me). Superman was completely super. Green Lantern used his ring for something other than a blaster and a force-bubble generator. Hawkgirl was her same butt-kicking self, but there was certainly more of her than there has been (not that I'm complaining, of course =8^). The dialogue was clean and fitting, without a clunker in the lot. The reversal where Draaga begins as a thug and is revealed by the end of the episode to be little more than a slave himself.

Minor things I noticed:

- Hawkgirl is wearing the white earrings which indicate she is married (or at least did back in the Silver Age comics). Make of this what you will.

- Anybody notice Superman and Draaga bleeding by the end of the episode? I thought this was rather well done, showing the stakes and the power levels involved, without becoming excessive. It's a minor way to push boundaries, but it's a boundary that was pushed in a good way nevertheless.

Anyway, color me impressed, and greatly relieved that Justice League has finally fully delivered on the promise it held from the start.

-- Ed/Ace

[BatKid]

Originally posted by Terminatah
Purple is the color of royalty.

-Terminatah

Whoops! You got me on that one. :o

But still, purple seems more like a color for like a nice king. But I don't think purple matches Mongul's personality with war. That's just my opinion though. By the way, in the comics, does Mongul wear purple also?

[The Guard]

I like how for once, we get to see the Justice League DOING something at the beginning. I love those big "fireworks" they used.

What's with Green Lantern's attitude toward Hawkgirl? He was downright mean.

It's clear that they tried to distance Mongul from Darkseid.

I loathed Draaga's voice. He sounds like Tigger Beyond. It's not what I heard when I read him in the comics. Mongul, too, was a little too much like Maximus's brother in GLADIATOR. Just too much of a showman. I just don't like his voice. It's not right for the character.

"Smile for me, brother."

It was cool to see John Stewart use his ring a la Hal Jordan, to follow an ion trail.

So...what was it in the atmosphere that made J'onn weak? Couldn't have been fire. Maybe a lot of oxygen? J'onn seems to be using more slang. Anyone else notice that? I thought J'onn's voicework and dialogue were a little off. He spoke really slow.

Mongul was portrayed as lazy. He isn't lazy. He's a TYRANT. Not like Darkseid, but similair.

"You can talk to me...or you can talk to her" (HAS to be what Batman said to Deadshot)

Good to see J'onn use his shapeshifting abilities. But his dialogue...gah.


The fight between Draaga and Superman wasn't bad. Little reminders of the fights with Kalibak and Darkseid. It was clear that Superman was holding himself in check. At the end, he kind of half-ass BEAT THE SNOT out of Draaga.

Once again, dialogue where it wasn't needed. "I refuse"? Come on. Just have him turn and walk away. J'onn at the end...sounded SO sincere. "No...don't...kill...Superman..."

This episode would have worked better with no J'onn.

All in all...I don't see what was so great about it. Actually, I loved it when I watched it with the sound off and just captions. But WITH sound...well...hope Part II is better.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Blade1225
what was the thing in the atmosphere that was sapping Martian Manhunter's strength?

Plot Gas, an invisible, odorless compound used by writers to rob superheroes of their powers when the story requires it. Comes in 6 isotopes or forms:

1. In its natural state on War World, it robs Martian Manhunter of enough of his abilities to make him weak, but not enough to permanently disable his "humanoid" form or low-level "phasing" power.

2. When crystalized, it becomes Kryptonite.

3. When ionized, it gives off a yellow beam that counteracts the Green Lantern's ring.

4. In gelatin form, it becomes a slippery compound that robs Flash of all traction.

5. Once every thirty days it screws with the female's menstrual cycle, causing Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl to hide out weeping in the bathroom and refusing to come out and help.

6. In concentrated quantities it gives Batman temporary amnesia, so that he forgets that the Justice League even exists.

Hope that helps. :rolleyes: :p

[Karkull]

Originally posted by BatKid
Thanks Karkull! Will you be updating with more origins once new villains come?

Oh yes. I think that you'll all be pleasantly surprised with what I have in store.


Originally posted by The Guard
Mongul, too, was a little too much like Maximus's brother in GLADIATOR. Just too much of a showman. I just don't like his voice. It's not right for the character.

"Smile for me, brother."

But that's what made him cool! I hate the Mongul from the comics (where he really is a Darkseid clone!).

[Batman 80]

LOL@ Maxie Zeus.

[BatKid]

Plot Gas! LOL! :D

That sort of thing is kinaa true though, some un-explainable thing that just moves the story along. I do hope that they explain some questions that we've been having in Part II. If Part II is better than Part I, then it will make the whole storyarc much better. Hopefully, Timm & Co. will do a good job, I have faith. :D

[Bud 'n Lou]

My very random thoughts...

I wasn't very impressed with this episode. It had it's good parts, but it also had it's share of bad parts too.
I was pretty indifferent about the voice acting. I didn't love it (with the exception of Hawkgirl's scream before sending those aliens through the window), and I didn't really hate it (although I thought Draaga's voice should've been more beastly and inhuman).
As I've stated about previous episodes, and this one is no different, I think the story ideas are solid, but the execution is off. I really can't pinpoint it, but it's definately off somehow.
I liked GL and Hawkgirl's detective work.
I thought the scene with the dead warriors in the "Croc's" pit was pretty cool. Kinda creepy.
I also liked how Supes escaped by breaking through the Croc's teeth, but I thought it was poorly staged. The animation in some parts just goes by too fast. Sometimes, you can hardly tell what just happened 'cause it's so quick. I don't mean they should employ Matrix-like slo-mo's (PLEASE DON'T), but it should be just slow enough for us to see what's going on.
I think the animation as a whole bothers me. I don't exactly know why.
I thought Draaga's head piece looked like something one of the Atlantean warriors from "The Enemy Below" would wear.
Speaking of Draaga, I wasn't very impressed by him. I mean, after the beatings Supes has taken by so many other villains so far, it didn't make me think he was anything special. Just...one of the bunch. Although, to be fair, I think Supes was holding back at first with Draaga, and then at the end, just really let him have it. Still, there were times when I thought Supes could've used his powers in certain situations, and he didn't (the robot scenes, for one).
I didn't like the over-usage of slabs of rocks as weapons in this episode. I think they were trying to demonstrate just how strong the warriors were, by having them lift bigger and bigger chunks of rock, but it ended up being a bit too much. Also, wasn't it nice how EVERY single stab broke off into a nice perfect square/rectangle shape?
What was up with the J'onn biting-his-lip expression during the Supes/Draaga fight? It looked wierd on him...
Oh, and I'd also like to add that I hate Hawkgirl's colors. They're way too bright (other characters have bright colors too, but hers are particularly offensive to my eyes with her blinding orange hair and brighter-than-the-sun tube top). Everytime I see her on screen, it burns my retinas.

That's all I can think of for now...

[Caped Crusader]

Originally posted by BatKid

I'm not 100% sure if this is correct, but I heard from somewhere that Draaga wears the "S" symbol to show of his shame that he lost to Supes. Supes wouldn't kill him, so now, Draaga has to live with the fact that he was finally beaten. Like I said, I don't know if it's 100% correct, so can someone clarify this?


I'm not sure either, but I, too, thought he wore the "S" symbol because of shame.
*******************

I don't think this episode was that great at all. Superman still seems wimpy, and some of the dialogue was really cheesy. I hope part two will be an improvement.

[Batman 80]

He does wear the S as a symbol of shame. Only until he kills Superman or dies trying will his shame be lifted.

[RorShaq]

I am sort of looking forward to the Superman-Mongul fight in part 2, but I have a nagging feeling that they'll show Mongul trash our hero, then have Draaga and Supes team up against Mongul. After all, we couldn't have Superman accomplishing anything on his own, now could we?

[Batman 80]

Isn't Mongul stronger than Superman? I think he was in the comics.

[Domino]

I'd liked everything I'd seen so far...until now.

You can tell the writers have never played superhero RPG's. If I had been playing Superman, the fight would have been over in about 12 seconds. The writers forget, when convenient, that Superman has:

1) Superspeed. Why did he just stand there every time a big chunk of wall was thrown at him? In his own show, we saw him go whoooooosh whenever it was needed. Not now.

2) The power of flight. Against a non-flying opponent, you stay the heck away from them and attack at range, with...

3) Heat vision. Bad guy picks up a chunk of rock, burn his hands. It falls on his head.

4) Super-strength. Clap your hands together and knock your opponent back with a shock wave. Grab up the ground like a big carpet and pull it out from under him. Stomp on the ground, opening a fissure beneath him.

I don't know, maybe these would have ended the fight too quickly and robbed it of its drama, but as it was the fight was robbed of common sense for the greatest hero on the planet.

And why in the world did Darkseid ever have trouble with Superman? Instead of sending that huge army and Kalibak and Intergang and all, he could have bought three robots from Mongul and knocked him silly, thus taking over Earth unopposed!

Sheesh! This made the line-item space station look like a work of genius!

[Spaceman Spiff]

Does anyone have an explantion about that field that let J'onn through but not Supes? Or is it just another form of plat gas? :D

[RorShaq]

Originally posted by Batman 80
Isn't Mongul stronger than Superman? I think he was in the comics.

Since when? Superman soundly trashed him in every pre-crisis encounter I've read(Though I've yet to read the story arc of his first appearance) Post-Crisis, they've never really fought with Superman at full strength. Mongul is dead now, but his son has gone up against Supes a few times, with Truth and Justice winning rather easily.

[daedalus222]

yes, gasp in horror all fans of the show--I've been gone for awhile--business trips but I am back now--to continue to wage a lil bit of criticism that might just might force Timm and his conspirators to loosen up on the ego long enough to give us a decent JL (after all we have waited nearly 10 years for this).

This ep was bad. For all of the people who in this thread said they loved it and that is was much improved....I'm serious about this...please tell me what parts u enjoyed? I found the animation pretty weak. It's obvious at this stage of the season that Cartoon Network gave WB a limited budget not exactly what Fox and Kids Wb were throwing around (why is that by the way???? I would think Cartoon Network is doing better than it used to with DBZ). This animation is pretty bad....so far beneath the levels of the old 1980's DiC cartoons (remember those) and probably on par with Static. The images seem flat on the screen, too bright and god knows the animation is sorely lacking in some many elements ( they look kind of like still Don Heck images whereas the original and the Kids WB revamp of Batman TAS had slick fluid almost rotoscoped animation on par with our boy fleischer). Somethig is missing with the animation and it is really unfortunate cuz if the art was better (just like in a comicbook) I could forgo the dialogue.

The dialogue...oh thine is the JL enemy. Man, that crap is BOOTY. Who the hell did Timm hire??? We know he didin't get his one-time friends and definitely better ideas men Dini and Burnett to the fold for what should have been animatoins finest hour but my god --these scripts are literally from the kindergarten class. They lack any enrgy whatsoever ( I was watching old eps this weekend of Supes, Batman Beyond and Batman---and my god the writing is simply night and day....witty, original, always a surprise twist and dramatic in the old shows while JL is silly, 1950's style predictable sci-fi and worst of all juvenille dialogue).
This story had absolutely no zest and please do not give me that it's only part one dribble.....this story sucked and definitely did not have a cliffhanger worth seeing (supes surrounded by robots and them shooting him--like he is going to die??? jeesus!!). Incidentally, I was watching Enemy Below last week and was wondering wouldnt' it have been more like the old Dini-style to hvae the part one end with Aquaman and the abby chained and heading to the lava---the stuff with Deadpool was stupid and useless and frankly the big aquatic battle with the atlantean forces was all of a minute screen time when it should have been bigger and more epic in part 2. I agree with the poster before that said that the rock shapes were all perfect little rectangles and that the fight ultimately lacked emotion (why god does supes not use his other powers???? against robots at that???)

Finally, the kicker.....I read Timm's hype on Toonzone's news about this ep and how the voices are the big thing. What is he high??? The voices on JL are horrible. Aside from Maria Canals who is truly a VOICE ACTOR (her voice is simply sexy as hell and communicates a definite slice of personality for Hawkgirl unlike WW) the rest of the cast (Batman, MM and GL excluded) are just ass. I'm sick of being able to guess Supes response and the best reading Newburn gives to the character every episode when he gets blasted and we all say UHGNNNNNNNNN along with Newburn. That's the only time which is sad for several reasons chief of which should be supes ability to withstand pain.

I could go on but why bother?? This is a travesty. I work in the field of entertainment working on interstig superhero-y properties and it is quite sad that I will go into the office tomorrow and all week and no one...none of the comic fans will say they caught JL---why? because as one young artist told me---"that crap sucks man....I switch it off after Samurai Jack." I'm a fan of mroe than 20 years of Superfriends and the Justice League and afterthe absolutely wondeful work done by Morrison and the work done by Timm and co in the past on my favorite characters I was really pyched for this show and continue to give it a chance even though it is pretty weak. Why did Timm's head get so fat and he not bring on Dini and co and copy some of Morrison's stuff??


Look at the new Spiderman cartoon...not only are they working closely with Bendis but they are working to get several Ultimate ideas in there. I fear for when that show comes out and how quicly JL will fall if they do not improve it.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


Originally posted by Domino
I don't know, maybe these would have ended the fight too quickly and robbed it of its drama, but as it was the fight was robbed of common sense for the greatest hero on the planet.


Actually, the way I interpreted Superman's restraint was that he didn't want to be a part of the whole spectacle. He didn't want to fight Draaga at all, then progressed to fighting to subdue, and finally moving on to cutting loose because Draaga was playing for keeps. Once Superman actually decided to get into the fight, he bests Draaga with just his strength in a matter of seconds. He also doesn't want to cause permanent damage to Draaga -- it's not his style or his intent.

Has Superman ever actually used his heat vision against a living opponent in any of the animated series? I thought of heat vision during the fight, too, but figured Superman doesn't melt people.

I can also interpret the loss of super speed or any general lack of super-ness to him getting blown up, electrocuted into unconsciousness, laser-blasted, force-shielded, and laser-blasted again (them laser blasts sting). He's just not moving as well as he would. You'll also notice that he did use flight to dodge one of the bigger rocks Draaga threw at him.

I will grant that the arbitrary robbing of J'onn of his powers seemed, well, arbitrary, especially after his phasing power kicked in to get them out of the force field (unless it activated when it detected Supes & J'onn flying through a perimeter, and J'onn got thrown free). I'm hoping for an explanation of the power loss in part 2, but am willing to let that one go until then.

-- Ed/Ace

[The Green Hornet]

daedalus222


at first i thought id be furious reading your post

but you know what? you're absolutly right

whatever happened to the AWESOME dialogue from STAS and BTAS

DARKSEID had lines that ill NEVER forget (speeches, diatribes etc)

i cant quote ANYONE from JL

the worst part is this show has soooooo much potential to be good

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
Does anyone have an explantion about that field that let J'onn through but not Supes? Or is it just another form of plat gas? :D

I dunno. I was wondering if maybe it had to do with J'onn's phasing ability, so he was able to slide through while it blocked Supes. Or maybe because Supes was supposed to be a warrior and J'onn was croc-food Supes got sprayed with something that made the forcefield work on him.

Part of me wants an explanation. The other part says, Screw it -- it won't be convincing anyway.

[metaphysician]

-Yes, I liked it

-There were a few times when Superman forgot about powers, but not too many.

-Complaints about the Draaga fight are unfounded. Has it occured to anybody that maybe Draaga challenging Supes is a sign of Draaga's strength, not Supes weakness?? And as for the axes, yes, a sufficiently strong axe wielded with enough strength behind it *can* harm Supes.

-I loved the GL/HG "interrogation" scene.

-MM seemed a little off in this episode, but I'll bet he does something important next time

-I liked the Draaga and Mongul performances. Mongul reminds me of the corrupt Roman emperor type, like Claudius of Gladiator.

[The Green Hornet]

dont you mean Commodus? =)

[daedalus222]

You do go out of your way to provide answers to things that I see as pure foul-ups and bad writing in general. The fact that Supes didn't use his heat vision on Draga is certinaly well-reasoned although I do believe that he used his heat vision on a humanoid character on STAS (althogh it can be argued that he didn't know if Draga could hold up to it). That being said, I think the intent of the posters here was that if this was anime or an old Dini Timm carton of Supes, the fight would have been quicker and more kinetic with supes using all of his powers to avert ridiculous things like flying rocks towards him, petty robots and so on. I do agree that Supes obviously was holding back some--but standing there taking it and getting pounded with cuts and bloody bruises is not quite my idea of how supes would react--nor did react in his old STAS show.

While you can forgo oversights like the one with the gas (I did too by the way---hey--u got to pick your battles) I cannot do so over the fight itself. It was lame in compairons to the WW-Supes fight and the (so far) best fight period in the show (aint saying much) between Hades and the League. It seems more to me that the writing is forcing fans like yourself to have to invent rationales to amke up for bad writing rather than there not being a question of why or when somethng happened. I do not recall having to explain things in Apocalypse Now, April Moon, The Call, or On Leather Wings or any of the many great epidoes of the BB, Batman:TAS and STAS shows.

[Joe G.]

Aye, 'tis Commodus, but that's neither here nor there...

I liked War World a LOT. It was MILES better than Paradise Lost was. I'm still waiting for them to do the best work they can do, because I know when they do that it'll ALL have been worth it. This episode wasn't bad, I thought it was a good set-up for the next episode.

Waiting for next week :)

[Joker85]

Not a great episode, but OK.
Good:
1. Hawkgirl is finally back!! :D
2. The opening scene
Bad:
1. Superman was a wimp in this eppy!!! He was just standing there and letting that guy kick his butt!!!
2. Draaga, I didn't really care for him.

Overall, not the best eppy, but I think next week's will be better.

[Maxie Zeus]

I usually reserve judgement on these things until I see both parts back to back, but there are a few observations I want to throw out:

1. Was Superman holding back? Probably. Everything we know about him is consistent with that kind of reticence and behavior. Was that intention of his clearly communicated? No. We've mentioned the lapses in technique on JL, and this is another example. Of course, it is very hard to get such subtleties across. Still, it has to be said in all truth that the "acting" on screen left a lot to be desired.

2. If Superman was holding back, not wanting to fight or cause a spectacle, why not just fly away? Invent rationalizations all you want, I'm not sure you're going to get around Ebert's "idiot plot" objection: We only have a plot because the characters are idiots.

3. Dialogue: A lot of it feels like "placeholder dialogue." The writer pushing thru the first draft, plugging in the first line (often a cliche) that comes to mind, before going back and polishing it.

Bottomline: Many of the shows feel rushed, like they're first drafts. I'm hoping that the second season will give them more time to get their ducks lined up.

[Houman]

Fun to watch like all episodes of JL, but...the animation was weak, and GL's lines about "who's driving this thing" and "I'm sick of saving your butt" (or whatever) were HORRIBLY delivered, as were most of the other lines and dialogue in the show.

The major ideas in all these episodes are great and to me show a lot of creativity, but much of their execution just misses the mark.

Bring back Dini and whoever else made BTAS and STAS so awesome!

[Batman 80]

I liked this episode. I finally get to see Mongul. I also thought Draaga was pretty cool. I bet you Draaga will end up dying trying to destroy that machine of Mongul's.

[Spider]

Well, I loved her in tonight's episode--esp. the part where we heard her scream right before she throws two villains through the wall. And I loved GL's response--LOL! :)

I was a little ticked at GL's criticism of her in the beginning, since she was (of course) following proper protocols. But I quickly forgave him when he gave her a ride through the universe--and since he even let her drive for a while.... ;)

[Spider]

I loved when Superman had that ridiculously heavy rock slab thrown on top of him--and how he got out of it. Of course we knew he would, but maybe we didn't know just how he would do it. BTW, does anyone know what ray/beam it was that caused him to be weakened, and then to fall flat on his face?

[Buddy Lee]

In the immortal words of critic Jay Sherman: "It stinks!"

Well, maybe the episode was not that bad. But, it wasn't very good either. I am a huge Superman fan and I shudder every time he is featured in an episode. His voice acting is awful and his super powers are under-utilized and watered down. I can only hope that the second season is better.

[Batman 80]

I liked this episode. Especially since Hawkgirl is in it. I thought the music was pretty good in this episode too. Sounded like a gladiator episode.

[Harvey Dent]

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound

Has Superman ever actually used his heat vision against a living opponent in any of the animated series? I thought of heat vision during the fight, too, but figured Superman doesn't melt people.

-- Ed/Ace

He used it against Jax-Ur and Mala indirectly by igniting the leaking fuel from a gasoline truck, but he did use Heat Vision on a squad of Paradaemons and incinerated them in Legacy.

Thoughts on Pt. I:

It wasn't bad. I actually felt that Superman had a reason to be a little weak, and I liked Mongul's voice.

Mongul:
The people have spoken. Long live democracy!

Line of the night, as far as I'm concerned.

[Bud 'n Lou]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
3. Dialogue: A lot of it feels like "placeholder dialogue." The writer pushing thru the first draft, plugging in the first line (often a cliche) that comes to mind, before going back and polishing it.


Thanks for reminding me about that. There was a scene in particular that really made me think the same thing. On the alien planet, when GL said "Lemme guess..." I thought he was gonna finish with "you could've handled them yourself," which I thought would've been a clever jab at the often corny, cliched dialogue. But then he said "It was something you said," and I thought it was still a pretty witty line. But then Hawkgirl had to go and say, "I could've handled them." Then I groaned.

[CadaverousEyes]

Mongul is wonderfully charismatic.

The Draaga fight was somewhat disappointing. They went on the entire episode about how Superman was weak and disappointing (what brought them to that conclusion anyway?) and he manages to beat Draaga almost effortlessly? And then a few robots knock him unconscious. Ah well, I liked it anyway.

[GL2k2]

I definitely won't be watching Justice League for fighting. I watch DBZ for that. If Draaga and Superman went on like Supes and Darkseid did in Legacy, or hell, even Supes in any episode of STAS, I'd enjoyed it. Have something strong to say in between. Geez, Supes just didn't say anything, he didn't even grunt much. I felt like I was watching it with the volume down. I hope next episode, which it seems the series writers have deliberately put their best moments in, will be better.

[RorShaq]

I know this is kind of beating a dead horse, but Superman isn't much of a defender of earth if 3 robots are what it takes to knock him out. Makes you wonder why Darkseid went to so much trouble to neutralize him.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy all,


Originally posted by daedalus222
This ep was bad. For all of the people who in this thread said they loved it and that is was much improved....I'm serious about this...please tell me what parts u enjoyed?


I should preface this by saying JL is still not up to the high-water mark set by BTAS (especially after seeing the "Fire From Olympus" episode right after JL), but that just makes it a good to very good show, rather than a great to mind-blowing show.

That said, I warn you -- you asked. The specific bits I enjoyed:

- The opening sequence with an asteroid making a big big boom. A fitting threat which goes wrong in a believable, if stupid, way and which sets things in motion rather quickly.

- GL completely and totally chews out Hawkgirl for messing up. Hawkgirl then gets and stays in his face, giving as well as she gets. I really liked the way the two snipe at each other throughout the episode. Sure, GL is mean to her, but he's mean to everybody. GL is a hard-assed jerk in this incarnation of the League. And why not? With all the costumes in the DCU, why wouldn't one of them end up being basically a butthead?

- Draaga's gruesome execution of the weird robot thing in the arena. I think it's a cop-out to make it a weird robot thing instead of a weird, decidedly non-human Bug-Eyed Monster (just like I think it's half a cop-out to make them all robots that get sliced to ribbons in Samurai Jack), but I thought it served to balance the seriousness of these "games" (vs. the complete and utter garbage they pass off as "entertainment" on the WWF) with the necessity of keeping that Y7 rating.

- GL uses the ring for something other than laser beams and force bubbles. We've been griping and moaning about this for ages, and he finally did SOMETHING different. We'll be at great big green boxing gloves in no time =8^).

- Superman bled. Say what you will about how depowered he is in the series, but the image of Draaga making Superman bleed carries resonance to people, regardless of whether they read comics or not. I can't think of a better way to communicate the exact amount of trouble Superman is in. Draaga was perfectly ready to KILL him and, given time, probably could have. They're not going to kill Superman on the show, and we know that, but we also know that they're not going to kill ANYBODY on ANY show when their name is in the opening credits (Tasha Yar and Doyle from Angel being notable exceptions). I thought the fight established the tension it needed to.

The two bits about this episode that I found weak were:

- J'onn's de-powering for no apparent reason
- The fact that Superman just leaves behind all those slaves without even asking where he was or what the slaves are being held for.

Other than that, I found it to be a diverting and exciting twenty minutes.



I found the animation pretty weak.


I find it below the standard set by BTAS (again, comparing "Fire from Olympus" to JL is almost no contest), but I don't think it's significantly worse than the average episode of Batman Beyond. I'm not blown away, but I reserve "pretty weak" for something like He-Man.



while JL is silly, 1950's style predictable sci-fi and worst of all juvenille dialogue).


I would say the dialogue in JL is not as good as BTAS, and I thought a lot of it was well under par in prior episodes. However, I think, by necessity, team comics and shows require things writ far, far larger than solo books or shows. Sometimes that comes off as more than a little foolish, no matter what you do to it. Even Grant Morrison noted and made fun of this effect at times. Besides, I think Timm & co are reinventing a lot of the stuff from the Silver Age and the Modern Age quite deliberately.

Heck, as much as I like Grant Morrison's run on JLA, I think he penned no small number of clunkers on the small and large scale (I thought the first Zauriel story had a lot of rough patches in it, and his Johnny Thunder story was totally and completely incomprehensible).

<ATTEMPT_AT_HUMOR>
I was also going to say that using "ass" and "booty" as apparently derogatory adjectives is not exactly my definition of "mature," but I can't come up with a way to say that which is funny and doesn't make me sound like a complete and total butthead. Or maybe I just did. I hope you can take the comment in the jovial (if juvenile) spirit I meant it in =8^).
</ATTEMPT_AT_HUMOR>



The voices on JL are horrible. Aside from Maria Canals who is truly a VOICE ACTOR (her voice is simply sexy as hell and communicates a definite slice of personality for Hawkgirl unlike WW) the rest of the cast (Batman, MM and GL excluded) are just ass.


Well, gee, that's only more than half of the League, and a number of people like Michael Rosenbaum's take on the Flash (I do, personally). In my opinion, the only truly bad voice actor is Susan Eisenberg (yes, even after "Paradise Lost"), but even she gets her moments. As for George Newbern, I found him quite good in this episode, but did anybody else notice that Tim Daly is doing the voice of Superman in the new PS2 game, and isn't slated for anything as demanding as a new weekly TV show? Make of that what you will.



because as one young artist told me---"that crap sucks man....I switch it off after Samurai Jack."


Yeah, because we all know that Samurai Jack NEVER uses a cliche for a line, never uses a recycled or silly plot, and never exercises the "Samurai-Jack-Has-Whatever-Power-We-Need-Whenever-We-Need-It-And-Doesn't-When-It-Would-Make-Things-Too-Easy Principle" in its storylines, right? I know you didn't make the comment, but I have to say that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.



I do not recall having to explain things in Apocalypse Now, April Moon, The Call, or On Leather Wings or any of the many great epidoes of the BB, Batman:TAS and STAS shows.

You mean other than the fact a guy can run around dressed like Dracula in a major urban centers and not get locked up for it? Or how Batman somehow figures out that Mr. Freeze's thefts can form a gigantic freeze-weapon in "Heart of Ice"? Or how Batman can figure out an antidote to Kirk Langstrom's formulas when the other experts in the field can't in "On Leather Wings"? Or where, exactly, Starro came from in "The Call" and what its purpose was in making people think Leaguers were getting killed instead of just replacing them like the Pod People in Invasion of the Body Snatchers?

This all ties back to a question I raised on an earlier thread on "Paradise Lost," on when it's "suspension of disbelief" and when it's just bad writing. I never really answered that one as well as I'd liked to have, and nobody else did, either.

To Maxie Zeus:
I love your avatar pic. RIP Chuck Jones.

-- Ed/Ace

[The Green Hornet]

i love this

superman withstood full force Omega beams

yet somehow the laser beams produced from a ROBOT lay him out in 1 or two shots?

yeah that makes just so much sense

[Hal Jordan]

GREAT episode for finally allowing Superman to be...well...SUPER. (in most ways). For the most part he did not get hit once and pass out.

However...(have to add on bit of criticism)...Superman is a well rounded guy-- he's got LOTS of powers at his disposal. So...why only use the heat vision on the ax during the battle?

Remember the Batman Beyond episode "The Call". A futuristic, older Superman is flying around at the end of part II, shooting aliens with his heat vision like a Star Wars movie.

WHY wasn't he even attempting this with any of the robots?

This kind of glaring omission really bugs me. Why not even try it -- if the writers want it to not be a total robot killer, then have it damage them but not destroy them. Just don't understand why they keep Supes so one track mindish. (ok, not a good sentence, but you get the idea...)

[superfriend]

Where is the rest of the team?

I realize this is the Superman Spotlight, but we only get 3 other members? GL's gave us five, Aquaman's gave us five, WW's gave us five. Here we only got 4. The missing 5th member just distracted me too much.

Mongul was dead on, appearance wise. Dragga looked unrecognizable. Superman once again got his butt kicked too much. He's supposed to be Superman!

[Joe Wagner]

Ok, i thought this episode was pretty good and I really enjoyed it. I've always been a Superman fan and was pleasantly surprised by the Superman theme playing during the croc fight. I also enjoyed the fight with Draaga and thought that it was pretty well done. I think one of the reasons Supes doesn't use his full power is because he didn't want to compete and even told Mongul that at the beginning. I noticed a lot of people wondered why Supes just stood there - personally I think he was just going to stand there and take whatever Draaga could dish out, until he realized he was an actual threat. Granted it would have been cool to see him use his heat vision and stuff but he didn't know how that would affect him either and as well all know - Superman doesn't kill. Also in the heat of battle sometimes the participants get to caught up in it to think about the obvious - I mean why didn't Batman use a batarang in every fight? There was more than one occassion where it would have come in handy but at the same time he didn't do it every time. In regards to the robots a)Mongul knew that Supes was Kryptonian and probably had robots on hand that had dealt with creatures of similar power levels to Supes and b) we don't know if War World had a yellow sun, an orange sun or anything else. If the sun was orange I would guess his power levels would decrease a bit but not to the point of a red sun. I also think that MM was hurt during the initial explosion at the beginning. He probably doesn't heal as quickly as Supes and this would explain why his powers aren't at full strength and why he was left for the croc (completely unconscious).

The episode had it's good and bad points but I really enjoyed it. Altho while I was watching Mongul did anyone else think of this villain - Mojo. It seems Mongul is only concerned about the attendance of the fights in order to keep control of his planet.

-Joe!

[Spider]

Daedalus,

You mentioned that the animation was weak, and later that it was IYO pretty bad. If you're willing, please elaborate on what you think would make for *good* animation. I don't know, as I am not well-versed in this genre. But I'm very willing to learn. :)

Ace the Bathound,

I actually haven't forgotten your 'suspension of disbelief' posts--excellent, BTW. But I can't apply them as well to Justice League (yet) as I can to sci-fi (which I won't do here, as it's not an Outer Limits or Star Trek Forum). But I use the principle (obviously without applying your particular wording, which I like) frequently when I attempt to a) make sense out of differing universes; b) try to explain chronological problems or anomalies; or c) attempt to justify minor inconsistencies in continuity. After reading your most recent post on the concept, I just wanted you to know it hadn't fallen on deaf ears. :)

Re: Music-- I've read about six posts over the past two months having to do with the music being either bad or good. If anyone would like to elaborate on precisely *why* they think so (using specific examples), I'd be more than happy to contribute. What I mean is, music can be good or bad, but that's not much help in describing the compositional properties or genres that are being used in Justice League. For example, what instrumentation or orchestration would some like to hear?; does contrapuntal movement and increased use of imitation enhance or detract from what we visualize (in the context of JL, I'm not talking Scriabin here!); does the level of dissonance move the action forward or stagnate it; etc. These are just starting points--there are several avenues one could take to begin. And BTW, I've read some very snippy comments toward others recently on a plethora of subjects. You won't get those from me--I'm interested in sharing opinions and ideas, not unloading any arsenal of condescension. :)

[SimonMoon5]

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
- The opening sequence with an asteroid making a big big boom. A fitting threat which goes wrong in a believable, if stupid, way and which sets things in motion rather quickly.


"Stupid" is exactly my objection. These are the world's greatest heroes (supposedly). What do they do on their day off? Blow themselves up. What must the other heroes be like?
(This was also a complaint I had about the rebooted LSH comics version of Brainiac 5.)



Originally posted by Ace the Bathound

- GL completely and totally chews out Hawkgirl for messing up.


Except that she didn't really mess up, if I'm interpreting the scene correctly. Supes and J'onn set off the rockets before checking to make sure it was safe. Hawkgirl was following standard procedures to check to see if it was safe. It was Superman and J'onn who screwed up, imho.

So, this scene didn't work for me, except to show John as unnecessarily argumentative, which imho is not a positive character trait.

I did like the fact that they blew up the Javelin 7. Unfortunately, I know that they will repair it. Notice that they didn't need it (again), as John and Hawkgirl can fly to Warworld without it.


Originally posted by Ace the Bathound

GL is a hard-assed jerk in this incarnation of the League. And why not? With all the costumes in the DCU, why wouldn't one of them end up being basically a butthead?


Would you feel the same way if it was Superman who was the jerk? Or Batman? Probably not, because you know who these characters are supposed to be. Personally, I've read comics with John Stewart as Green Lantern, so I know the concept of his character... and this isn't it. It therefore seems somewhat jarring to me, rather than being a good thing. YMMV.


Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
-
- Superman bled. Say what you will about how depowered he is in the series, but the image of Draaga making Superman bleed carries resonance to people,


Well, it didn't to me. Superman always gets hurt. Bleeding might be rare, but that's only because he rarely fights people using sharp pointy objects. If Deadshot had had a butter knife, Superman would've been bleeding in the Enemy Below.

[The Guard]

The rest of the cast (Batman, MM and GL excluded) are just ass.

Calling Kevin Conroy's voice ass on this board is a bold, bold move. You'd better be able to back it up.

Aside from WAR WORLD, Jonn's voice has been excellent. And I haven't found anything wrong with GL yet. Superman's voice is coming along, and, if the Flash didn't have such "witty" dialogue, his would be very good.

[SimonMoon5]

Originally posted by FLIPMODE
It ends with Supes, Refusing to Kill Draaga. Then Supes is Captured by...ROBOTS??? Oh come on.

Anyway, anyone notice the scene from part 2 shows Draaga, with an "S" on his chest. Similar to how Steel, honored Supes.

I think if Mongul was looking for a challenge for Draaga, he should've just sent in some robots, obviously.

And the S on the chest is no doubt meant to parallel the comics stories in which (yellow, comics-version) Draaga wore Superman's cape draped across his chest, with the yellow S on the cape (absent in the cartoons) as his own personal chest-symbol.

[The Guard]

Yeah. The thing about this story, is that a lot of us know how it ends. Because the writers are just taking elements from Silver Age stories and sticking some Bruce Timm stuff in there.

[Apache Chief]

I am life-long Superman fan so I was happy to see him get his own ep., but I have to agree - he's so watered down here. Superman is more than a flying strongman! He's really, really fast! Show that! If I can dodge something thrown at me, Superman can too.
Also, how the hell would Hawkgirl know who Sherlock Holmes is?

[Spider]

Originally posted by Apache Chief
Also, how the hell would Hawkgirl know who Sherlock Holmes is?

Apache Chief,

Because Hawkgirl's real name is in the original Thanagarian an anagram on Sherlock Holmes. ;)

[daedalus222]

Daedalulus222: I went into your post and edited it to fix the formatting of the quotes. I understand that you used the allcaps to distinguish your sentences from those you quote. Of course, allcaps are often interpreted as screaming, and though I don't think many people here will mistake your tone, I just thought it best to be on safe side and make the formatting adjustments. I hope in retyping it I didn't make any typos that change your meaning. I'll pay for the damage if I did. :) --Maxie

Just wanted to take a few minutes this morning to have some nice honest dialogue about the show. Let me preface things by saying that I tell it like it is...not attempting to demoralize or not credit people or shows for their worth-so hopefully you look at it so and we can attempt to inform one another on die-hard fan reactions to the show and why.

IMHO, I certainly would personally disagree with you regarding what makes JL a good to very good show. This show lacks in so many areas and I have yet to really here the elements about the series as a whole that justify this argument. You would agree that the animation is behind other series in the WB cannon (not just BTAS by the way--I would argue all of the series BB, STAS and all of the iterations of Batman are much farther beyond and consistent than JL has been...JL looks like Static Shock to me...flat lifeless characters--really 2D looking characters, non-interesting backgrounds and colors that are bright like cloroforms).

By the way, to Spider--you asked in a post what I see wrong with the animation and I believe I had answered it with specifics in my previous post and in this one. I could take screen-grabs at some point but I don't see what that will buy...look at my arguments...sit don with an ep of Supes (Livewire or the Jax and Mala ones or any really) or any of the Batman cartoons and then sit down with any of the JL's (aside from Part 2 of the WW ep) I think my and others' comments regarding the animation are pretty obvious. Most importantly, it's just the fact that the show is inconsistent between the same ep. This happened some in BTAS and many WB cartoons but on this show it is more reminiscent of Static Shock which I think we can atleast agree is the worst looking of the DC cartoons.


Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
Howdy all,

I should preface this by saying JL is still not up to the high-water mark set by BTAS (especially after seeing the "Fire From Olympus" episode right after JL), but that just makes it a good to very good show, rather than a great to mind-blowing show.

That said, I warn you -- you asked. The specific bits I enjoyed:

Thanks for these...Allow me to comment


Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
- The opening sequence with an asteroid making a big big boom. A fitting threat which goes wrong in a believable, if stupid, way and which sets things in motion rather quickly.

I would disagree with you Ace...not believable but definitely stupid. My man SimonMoon5 said it best--what do they do--blow each other up on their days off??


- GL completely and totally chews out Hawkgirl for messing up. Hawkgirl then gets and stays in his face, giving as well as she gets. I really liked the way the two snipe at each other throughout the episode. Sure, GL is mean to her, but he's mean to everybody. GL is a hard-assed jerk in this incarnation of the League. And why not? With all the costumes in the DCU, why wouldn't one of them end up being basically a butthead?

Once again, Simon Moon is right: "Except that she didn't really mess up, if I'm interpreting the scene correctly. Supes and J'onn set off the rockets before checking to make sure it was safe. Hawkgirl was following standard procedures to check to see if it was safe. It was Superman and J'onn who screwed up, imho."


- Draaga's gruesome execution of the weird robot thing in the arena. I think it's a cop-out to make it a weird robot thing instead of a weird, decidedly non-human Bug-Eyed Monster (just like I think it's half a cop-out to make them all robots that get sliced to ribbons in Samurai Jack), but I thought it served to balance the seriousness of these "games" (vs. the complete and utter garbage they pass off as "entertainment" on the WWF) with the necessity of keeping that Y7 rating.

I agree with you on this point Ace. This was well done and didn't whimp out the way this show was leading me to expect. In fact the one positive to this show is the fact that the fights were meant to be brutal and that Cartoon Network allowed it to be. This is one thing I will give JL....it has never cowtowed in the way Fox or Kids WB would have...although let's get real---we're not talking anything u can't see in the comicbook.



- GL uses the ring for something other than laser beams and force bubbles. We've been griping and moaning about this for ages, and he finally did SOMETHING different. We'll be at great big green boxing gloves in no time =8^).

IMO I think there is nothing more childish than green boxing gloves for a superhero and for John's personality thus far that would be asinine. I can see an ep where he does it as a jjoke but that's about it. I think there is a split of personality on this board those that like it and those that don't if I had to bet my money though I would say that you are just going to be out of luck and better w ish they let Green Arrow wield the old boxing glove arrow. ;)


- Superman bled. Say what you will about how depowered he is in the series, but the image of Draaga making Superman bleed carries resonance to people, regardless of whether they read comics or not. I can't think of a better way to communicate the exact amount of trouble Superman is in. Draaga was perfectly ready to KILL him and, given time, probably could have. They're not going to kill Superman on the show, and we know that, but we also know that they're not going to kill ANYBODY on ANY show when their name is in the opening credits (Tasha Yar and Doyle from Angel being notable exceptions). I thought the fight established the tension it needed to.

Once again my esteemed fellow poster answered this in a way that If eel is totally accurate and more witty than anything this show or the support for it have conjured up yet: "Well, it didn't to me. Superman always gets hurt. Bleeding might be rare, but that's only because he rarely fights people using sharp pointy objects. If Deadshot had had a butter knife, Superman would've been bleeding in the Enemy Below."


The two bits about this episode that I found weak were:

- J'onn's de-powering for no apparent reason
- The fact that Superman just leaves behind all those slaves without even asking where he was or what the slaves are being held for.

Other than that, I found it to be a diverting and exciting twenty minutes.

Once again we agree---and this is again my point....These issues were thought out in the previous cartoon shows.


I find it below the standard set by BTAS (again, comparing "Fire from Olympus" to JL is almost no contest), but I don't think it's significantly worse than the average episode of Batman Beyond. I'm not blown away, but I reserve "pretty weak" for something like He-Man.

Would have to disagree with you--times have changed--Static Shock animation is bad and JL is bad as well. Batman Beyond by the way had some fantastic animation on some eps--this lack of respect for that show which was essentially a Dini-Timm Spiderman was extremely well done. Perhaps the reason that show gets overlooked and the reason JL enjoys such praise is a matter of fans reacting to characters they love and have praised and not over things that they are unfamiliar with. He-Man is just a ghetto.


I would say the dialogue in JL is not as good as BTAS, and I thought a lot of it was well under par in prior episodes. However, I think, by necessity, team comics and shows require things writ far, far larger than solo books or shows. Sometimes that comes off as more than a little foolish, no matter what you do to it. Even Grant Morrison noted and made fun of this effect at times. Besides, I think Timm & co are reinventing a lot of the stuff from the Silver Age and the Modern Age quite deliberately.

I disagree. I think there are a million ways to write a solid story and the bototm line is that the dialogue in JL is ass. Morrison peppered JLA with tons of great dialogue (which I agree the story arcs could sometimes be horrible but the ideas were not) such as Supes saying that Batman was the most dangerous human alive or when Flash comments about how Supes is fighting an angel and the angle says simply yield and Supes says never (JL cartoon would have the Angel say something lame like "I will crush Earth and every insignificant ant on it" with Supes responding in that classic Newburn "UGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!") To excuse it as being difficult s for me to accuse your job of being difficult and therefore understandable while u suck at it. LOL. That's a joke but the point is that--that's not an excuse and that was my point earlier--I know u r a fan and I can read teh passion in your messages but it just seems foreign to me to have to explain things to the degree that u do when if the product (show, videogame, or whatever) was properly and cleverly handled in the beginning.


Heck, as much as I like Grant Morrison's run on JLA, I think he penned no small number of clunkers on the small and large scale (I thought the first Zauriel story had a lot of rough patches in it, and his Johnny Thunder story was totally and completely incomprehensible).

<ATTEMPT_AT_HUMOR>
I was also going to say that using "ass" and "booty" as apparently derogatory adjectives is not exactly my definition of "mature," but I can't come up with a way to say that which is funny and doesn't make me sound like a complete and total butthead. Or maybe I just did. I hope you can take the comment in the jovial (if juvenile) spirit I meant it in =8^).
</ATTEMPT_AT_HUMOR>

I get the attempt at humor--and I say things like booty and ass or butthead or whatever cuz it's how I talk unlike the characters of JL which all sound like automatons.


Well, gee, that's only more than half of the League, and a number of people like Michael Rosenbaum's take on the Flash (I do, personally). In my opinion, the only truly bad voice actor is Susan Eisenberg (yes, even after "Paradise Lost"), but even she gets her moments. As for George Newbern, I found him quite good in this episode, but did anybody else notice that Tim Daly is doing the voice of Superman in the new PS2 game, and isn't slated for anything as demanding as a new weekly TV show? Make of that what you will.[QUOTE][B]

I disagree yet again and I know it's a matter of opinion but Newburn is ass. He projects no emotion and to The Guard--Dude, would u read my post--I said except Kevin Conroy--he's a god and shows Eisenberg, Newburn and Rosenbaum how it's done. As for Rosenbaum (I can concede I am harsh--perhaps he needs better dialogue.)

[QUOTE][B]Yeah, because we all know that Samurai Jack NEVER uses a cliche for a line, never uses a recycled or silly plot, and never exercises the "Samurai-Jack-Has-Whatever-Power-We-Need-Whenever-We-Need-It-And-Doesn't-When-It-Would-Make-Things-Too-Easy Principle" in its storylines, right? I know you didn't make the comment, but I have to say that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

I would agree with u--I certain was not happy with the statement. That being said, JL is certainly less of a passionate product than SJ....if u cannot see the patience and style that show exudes with what is probably less of a budget than JL then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


You mean other than the fact a guy can run around dressed like Dracula in a major urban centers and not get locked up for it? Or how Batman somehow figures out that Mr. Freeze's thefts can form a gigantic freeze-weapon in "Heart of Ice"? Or how Batman can figure out an antidote to Kirk Langstrom's formulas when the other experts in the field can't in "On Leather Wings"? Or where, exactly, Starro came from in "The Call" and what its purpose was in making people think Leaguers were getting killed instead of just replacing them like the Pod People in Invasion of the Body Snatchers?

This all ties back to a question I raised on an earlier thread on "Paradise Lost," on when it's "suspension of disbelief" and when it's just bad writing. I never really answered that one as well as I'd liked to have, and nobody else did, either.

I think that's a cheap shot. I didn't care for that line of reasoning before and in the context of our discussion it seems to be even less relevant. The fact of the matter is that you are trying (awfully hard) to find fault with those eps (why a man can dress like Dracula and not be locked up--for the same reason JL can be causing property damage freely and not be locked up I assume Ace. But you are reaching for that one...The questions that I and the other critics ask is, Why are the stories bad? Why does Superman have to be portrayed as hurt by bombs and rays when he withstood worse on his own show (including Darkseid)? Where is Bruce Timm? Why is the dialogue so inconsistent with the characters (as established in previous eps of previous shows)? Why do fans support this show? (LOL...Sorry, couldn't resist.) These are just the issues that I make of the series thus far.

In reality JL is not bad--I don't think anyone truly feels it's horrible. But it could be so much more. And it seems unfortunately that fans are settling for a show of mediocrity rather than one that should be and could be (by example) so much better.

[RJLundeen]

I thought that GL and Hawkgirl did a fine job. The story was nicely done. J'onn was a bit of a waste. Supes.....this fight with Draaga was as ridiculous as that one with Kalibak back in S.T.A.S.. Supe stakes a bunch of punches, laying there like a dummy, then gets up, punches the opponent, turns his back (?!) and walks/flys away. He never makes surm the guy is down, he's just oblivious and then gets his butt handed to him again. Lays there and takes it, then half-heartedly punches the opponent JUST enough to make him fall down. I can understand him wanting to not mistakenly kill someone but when it's an opponent in this wieght class, he can at least allow himself to get angry and perhaps even grow a spine. Supes should get a clue and hopefully, we'll see a tiny bit of backbone in part two.

[Heehaw]

Would you feel the same way if it was Superman who was the jerk? Or Batman?

Ha, ha, Batman is a jerk, so no problem there. I wouldn't have him any other way.

I actually caught it during the premiere for a change.

I thought it was more of the same. The animation took a huge downturn towards Secret Origins quality(not that post SO was anything special to begin with). It was a Cleveland Steamer and pretty much par for the course. This is getting ridiculous. It's almost like it's rushed.

Same old stale camera angles. How about that scene where Superman's hands are about 2 sizes too big.

The storyline was garbage. Everytime Mongul said his little gameshow host quip, all I could here was Bob Barker and "The Price is Right" music. In fact, the entire episode was a HUGE ripoff of the old X-Men episode with Mojo. Exactly the same.

Also, I absolutely HATE it when weird looking aliens are given normal, almost mid teen sounding voices. They should have some sort of out of this world sound, not sound like Michael J. Fox.

Oh yeah, and let's not forget those spiffy CG effects that Bruce Timm supposedly "loves". That's bunk. The budget probably doesn't allow for him to go all out, so he sticks with cheesy looking forcefields, stars, and vortex's. I also love it when they take a single cel and artificially scale it(via a computer program) to make it appear that they are getting closer to or farther away from the screen. Pure Flash quality. It happened several times in the show(and the series). The opening shot of the asteroid was a classic example. "It's obviously a computer generated forgery."

On a postive note, I liked the uberviolence of it all. It didn't make it any better, but it reminded me of some of the old STAS episodes(the violence content that is). At least it has that going for it. I thought Supes was better, this go around, but he still stinks.

I also liked some of the GL vs. Hawkgirl scenes. Decent, though nothing special.

This show is home to some of the worst technical craftmanship ever and deserves to incinerate in a river of molten lava. May Bruce Timm be stamped with a big red "JL" on his forehead. That way he will be reminded of the atrocity that is Justice League everytime he looks at himself in the mirror.

Next season, please.

[Spider]

Daedalus,

You wrote--

"By the way, to Spider--you asked in a post what I see wrong with the animation and I believe I had answered it with specifics in my previous post and in this one."

No, I did not ask you what you see wrong with the animation. I've already read what you think is wrong with it. What I posted was this:

"You mentioned that the animation was weak, and later that it was IYO pretty bad. If you're willing, please elaborate on what you think would make for *good* animation."

As I say, you've pointed out what is bad-- what I was hoping for was what you believe to be *good* animation--in other words, what you would do to make it better. If you've got a solution to the gamut of problems you contend are wrong with this aspect of the show, I'd like to read what you think could be done to improve them. (If you've already addressed this, then I missed it, and I apologize.)

You also write, "I think my and others' comments regarding the animation are pretty obvious." Well, you may take for granted that the comments you allude to are obvious to you, but they are not so to me--even the inconsistency which you assert is the most important aspect is lost on me, probably because I am uneducated in the various idiosyncracies of the genre. I'm requesting further delineation, in order to grasp more clearly what it is you are saying. :)

[The Green Hornet]

someone made mention of Supe's fight with Kalibak

you know what made that fight so cool?


the fact that when Kalibak charged Superman one time, Supes picked up TWO CARS AND SLAPPED THEM TOGETHER

that may very well have been one of the coolest action sequences ive ever seen =))

nothing of the sort in supes v. dragaa

[Heehaw]

Good animation can be found in old BTAS shows like POV, Feat of Clay 2, Cat and the Claw 1, Heart of Ice, etc., etc. The list is endless. It all comes down to not only fluidity, but posing, grace, and weight. The characters in the old Timm shows act and move like real world individuals, in terms of, body language and gestures. Justice League characters just stand around, move their arms around a bit and are basically maquettes that move. No realistic movement or sense of weight. Weight is a huge deal. It can make or break animation.

[Spider]

Heehaw,

"Good animation can be found in old BTAS shows like POV, Feat of Clay 2, Cat and the Claw 1,
Heart of Ice, etc., etc. The list is endless. It all comes down to not only fluidity, but posing,
grace, and weight. The characters in the old Timm shows act and move like real world individuals,
in terms of, body language and gestures. Justice League characters just stand around, move their arms around a bit and are basically maquettes that move. No realistic movement or sense of weight. Weight is a huge deal. It can make or break animation."

Excellent. Now I'm beginning to understand some of the criticisms being leveled with regard to animation, and at least partially what could be done to improve them. I appreciate your insights. :)

[Failure]

Originally posted by Heehaw
Also, I absolutely HATE it when weird looking aliens are given normal, almost mid teen sounding voices. They should have some sort of out of this world sound, not sound like Michael J. Fox.

Yeah, this definitely cheeses me off too. Everytime an alien speaks I start thinking where the heck do the get these voice actors? No wait, why the heck are they getting these voice actors? And at the least, could it hurt for them to use some kind of vocal effect to make the voice sound remotely "non-alien?" I'd hate to think they have that much of a budget crunch.

[Blight]

Ehhh........this episode wasn't very good. Sure the action and animation were nice, but the story sucked. The fight between Superman and Draaga was rather strained and not at all exciting, and I frankly expected much more. The only part I enjoyed was when a tiny hint of Superman's theme was played whan he flew out of the pool. Hopefully they'll do the same thing for Batman in "Injustice For All". It would be nice to hear his theme again. Also, did anybody notice that were only four memebers of the JL in this episode, and not the usual five per eppy? Anyways, I was overall dissapointed by this episode and it is definitely my least favorite of this mostly good season. Hopefully part two will be better, though I doubt it.

See ya!
Blight

[Terminatah]

Originally posted by The Guard
This episode would have worked better with no J'onn.Maybe he does something spectacular in part 2. Frankly, I felt J'onn was upstaged by that old lady alien.

-Terminatah

[James Harvey]

Added a poll to this thread to give your ratings on the episode.

[Batman 80]

I liked the episode. I gave it 4 stars.

[Justice League 2000]

hello my good friends warworld was my second best episode ever when hawkgirl and green lantern got mad at each other.
draaga beat this eight leg alien that was so cool and lovely.
mongul told superman to kill draaga but superman won't do it
and part 2 do you think mongul will be kill? and why is everybody saying that voice in justice league is the worse? :( its not they all do a good job. :) if you want to hear their voices don"t watch the show read the comice book. :)

[Spider]

I thought the writing had Hawkgirl handling GL very well. She showed great restraint, and IMO wanted to work with him, not against him. I also think his respect for her will grow as a result of her responses to his comments in Part 1. :)

[JohnStewart-GL]

Originally posted by Justice League 2000
hello my good friends warworld was my second best episode ever when hawkgirl and green lantern got mad at each other.
draaga beat this eight leg alien that was so cool and lovely.
mongul told superman to kill draaga but superman won't do it
and part 2 do you think mongul will be kill? and why is everybody saying that voice in justice league is the worse? :( its not they all do a good job. :) if you want to hear their voices don"t watch the show read the comice book. :)
i think Mongul is gonna live. and probably beat supes.

[miss lizz]

Originally posted by metaphysician
[-MM seemed a little off in this episode, but I'll bet he does something important next time

I sincerely hope he does something important, he's too awesome a character to do this to IMO. I hated how they just robbed his powers but maybe he was hit harder by the explosion at the beginning than anyone thought, even himself? Hmmm... probably not but its good for speculation.

-I liked the Draaga and Mongul performances. Mongul reminds me of the corrupt Roman emperor type, like Claudius of Gladiator. [/B]

I thought their voices were cool. Very fitting for Mongul, an emperor should sound educated, well-versed and all that stuff and Mongul does. Draaga's voice was different from what I was expecting given his appearence but who says that should determine voice?

Miss Lizz^_^

P.S. I really hope to the gods that J'onn does more in the second part.

[Memphis Bleek]

The animation was superb. The infighting between GL and Hawkgirl was great. Clark was getting his butt kicked but he was standing up for his principles. Clark lay the smack down on draaga after draaga push him to far. The fighting scenes were intense and well animated. I can't wait until Mongul fight Supes. It going to be a fight to remember.

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

The part where Draaga chopped up that creature was ausome. (I know that's kind of sick) You know that Fox or WB would have never let Bruce Timm and Co. make an episode so violent. That just goes to show you that Justice League is in no way shape or form...a kid show.

[Blackymir]

War World was a decent ep. Not my favorite to this point but hey the series has only just begun. Ive seen some people bashing the animation and while I say this episdoe is a step back I think the most disturbing animation came from alot of the background characters. In particualrly when MM was going into the arena to watch Superman's fight. The background characters details were pretty lame.

My biggest complaint on this ep is the whole MM being weakened by some unknown element issue. I hope they correct this on the next episode. GL was the tight prick as usual and HG was her butt kicking self as usual no real complaints there (other than some minor lame dialogue).

Now the big thing is Superman not using his true powers. You know Ive seen alot of people complaining about this and I feel that they do have a point but my whole take on Superman has always been he is the most purest form of good in any superhero ever created by DC, Marvel or any other comic book company.

Superman's true weakness is not kryptonite but his overwealming drive to be "perfect" in everyone's eyes. That is why he doesnt show his true powers at times and takes an ***** beating. Look at last nights episode he basically quotes a biblical passage as to why he didnt show his true powers when he was spit on by saying " ever heard of turning the other cheek". I say this if Batman had his powers there would be very little restraint on him slaughtering his enemy ( the fight in War World would have lasted 10 seconds).

So to see Superman take a pounding in some cases I say that it's his compassion for life and others that makes him this way. I will say this though why he doesnt trash those robot sentinels in War World is beyond me ( maybe the lasers had kryptonite within it, or maybe they were stronger than conventional lasers or maybe it's just a screwup by the writers ?). Other wise a decent ep not one of the best but again it sure is better than alot of the other crap on TV right now.

Cannot wait for those Injustice League episodes !!!!! :D

[FLIPMODE]

Complaints about the Draaga fight are unfounded. Has it occured to anybody that maybe Draaga challenging Supes is a sign of Draaga's strength, not Supes weakness?? And as for the axes, yes, a sufficiently strong axe wielded with enough strength behind it *can* harm Supes.

I'd have to disagree. That's like saying, If he was holding a baloon, and with his strength, he could stab Supes with it. The underlying fact would be that, even the molecular make up of the steel that the axe is made out of, is Still not as dense as Supes.
So before anything, the axe would crush against his chest.

Draaga would be wiser to beat Supes with his bare hands. Draaga proved that HE is stronger than stone, by breaking it with his bare hands, and by the fact it could not penetrate him. So what sense does it make, to continue throw rocks at Supes? Even the weight of a falling boulder, is still not as strong as a Punch from Draaga.

The whole reminded me of a fight between 2 cavemen. It looked Silly.

[Scarlet Speedster]

I've read a ton of posts in the thread talking about how Superman acted like too much of a wimp, how he let Draga kick his butt and didn't do anything about it until the end of the fight. What seems to be getting lost in this argument is that Superman had told Mongul that he wouldn't participate in his brutal game, and he was simply keeping to his principles. He refused to fight back because that is exactly what Mongul wanted. Supes held off retalitating until his life was in danger, at which point he repeatedly knocked Draga back without trying to injure him. It wasn't until it was clear that Draga was not going to stop that Supes was forced to injure him.

As for being taken down by some robots at the very end, keep in mind everything the guy has been through - caught in an asteroid explosion, chained to a wall (most likely beaten or shocked regularly), fought a mutated croc, smashed full force into a defensive energy shield, and suffered a pretty serious pounding by Draga. He probably hasn't eaten or slept in days and is disoriented and exhausted. His energy has got to be nearly exhausted.

Lastly, let's keep in mind that this is action-based storytelling. To have Superman defeat Draga in the first 2 seconds of battle doesn't tell a very interesting story.

[metaphysician]

Not to mention the fact that the whole poin6t of War World is to contain very powerful slaves while being sent to the arena. Of course the guard robots are gonna pack a wallop; thats what they're designed to do.

[Heehaw]

STAS handled action-based storytelling superbly. The writers should consult it to see how to do this sort of thing. As it is now, it stinks.

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

Originally posted by FLIPMODE


I'd have to disagree. That's like saying, If he was holding a baloon, and with his strength, he could stab Supes with it. The underlying fact would be that, even the molecular make up of the steel that the axe is made out of, is Still not as dense as Supes.
So before anything, the axe would crush against his chest.

Draaga would be wiser to beat Supes with his bare hands. Draaga proved that HE is stronger than stone, by breaking it with his bare hands, and by the fact it could not penetrate him. So what sense does it make, to continue throw rocks at Supes? Even the weight of a falling boulder, is still not as strong as a Punch from Draaga.

The whole reminded me of a fight between 2 cavemen. It looked Silly.

The axe was made from an alien metal, whose to day it couldn't cut Superman's skin?

[The Guard]

Lost in all this is the fact that Draaga sounds liek TIGGER BEYOND.

[CadaverousEyes]

Not to mention the fact that the whole poin6t of War World is to contain very powerful slaves while being sent to the arena. Of course the guard robots are gonna pack a wallop; thats what they're designed to do.

True, but it'd surely take more than 3. If he had been into the fight, he could have taken out Draaga without breaking a sweat, but he's knocked unconcious in 2 seconds by 3 robots? He could have just flown or run away, the robots didn't seem that fast.

[RorShaq]

Originally posted by JusticeLeagueLegion


The axe was made from an alien metal, whose to day it couldn't cut Superman's skin?

Right...an alien metal so strong that he was able to snap it over his knee and melt it in a second.

[Failure]

Originally posted by metaphysician
Not to mention the fact that the whole poin6t of War World is to contain very powerful slaves while being sent to the arena. Of course the guard robots are gonna pack a wallop; thats what they're designed to do.

A wallop is one thing. If it was like 20 robots and Superman desperately tried to knock out every one of them but fell in the end, it'd be believable. But with this logic, the 3 guard robots' lasers pack more power than Darkseid's Omega Beams? Hard to believe.

[Christo]

I like this show. Really.

But I want to love it.

This most recent episode is yet another example of unrealized potential. Let's start with the plot problems:

1) Superman is unique (and worthy of battle) as the last Kryptonian, but J'onn (who is at least on par with Supes, power wise) J'onn isn't even mentioned as being the last Martian? Racism! (Alienism?) If a writer has to handicap one character in order to spotlight another character (as in our case of plot gas), that's just Weak Writing -- as is the one-way force-field (contrived) and the robots with super-kryptonite-ultra-omega lasers (just lame).

2) Superman says that he won't fight Draaga. He seems pretty adamant about it. He has the ability to go away. Say, halfway around to the other side of the world? His actions do not follow his words -- and this is just too out of character for an icon of Superman's stature. (Not to mention that he simply could have dodged the teleprt beam in the first place) Once you set the rules, you must play by them.

And then there's the stuff that just annoys me:

Superman & J'onn are blowing up an asteroid out by Saturn? Yawn. Not to mention unrealistic. The math required to know that it would hit Earth (in about 200 years) would be beyond even their abilities if you understand Chaos Theory. Why couldn't they just be defusing a mine field left over from the invasion or something? Y'know, something to contribute to a sense of continuity (something else the show is lacking so far).

Our heroes keep getting knocked out in the lamest ways -- exploding asteroid, super robots, electricity, yellow gas, and the worst of them all -- depth charges!?! (Depth Charges!?!) The writers are trying to make it seem that our heroes are in peril physically, but I just don't buy it. It's weak plotting. Period. A creative writer would find another way to jeapordize our heroes.

I'm just so frustrated because this show could be so much better. Is there no story editor on this show? Can't we send each script through some sort of logic machine? Sigh.

I like this show, I really do.

But I want to love it.

[Karkull]

Originally posted by Christo
1) Superman is unique (and worthy of battle) as the last Kryptonian, but J'onn (who is at least on par with Supes, power wise) J'onn isn't even mentioned as being the last Martian? Racism! (Alienism?) If a writer has to handicap one character in order to spotlight another character (as in our case of plot gas), that's just Weak Writing -- as is the one-way force-field (contrived) and the robots with super-kryptonite-ultra-omega lasers (just lame).

I got the impression that not only is the Martian race long gone, but they're also largely forgotten (they've been extinct for 500+ years). The destruction of Krypton was more recent, however, so people would still remember Kryptonians.

[Spider]

First, sorry to post this here, but there are so many threads as it is, that I didn't want to create another one.

Does anyone know whether there will be any three-part episodes shown during the remainder of Season 1, or perhaps in Season 2? I'm planning ahead for taping purposes. Thanks.

[Bird Boy]

Originally posted by Spider
First, sorry to post this here, but there are so many threads as it is, that I didn't want to create another one.

Does anyone know whether there will be any three-part episodes shown during the remainder of Season 1, or perhaps in Season 2? I'm planning ahead for taping purposes. Thanks.

I think so...one called:

Savage Time, The Part 1
Savage Time, The Part 2
Savage Time, The Part 3

:)

-BB

[Spider]

Originally posted by Bird Boy


I think so...one called:

Savage Time, The Part 1
Savage Time, The Part 2
Savage Time, The Part 3

:)

-BB

Bird_Boy,

And a testosterone-filled Thanagarian thank you to you! :)

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


Originally posted by Karkull
I got the impression that not only is the Martian race long gone, but they're also largely forgotten (they've been extinct for 500+ years). The destruction of Krypton was more recent, however, so people would still remember Kryptonians.

But weren't Kryptonians just ordinary (if smart and really really clean) beings with no powers to speak of when they were on Krypton? And I don't think there was a Kryptonian colony anywhere else around a yellow sun, or else Superman wouldn't have been the last Kryptonian (unless there WAS one that ultimately perished in some horrible accident and I'm thinking too hard about this again, aren't I?).

I think I'm just going to drop "War World" into the same category as Back to the Future, which would be the bin where I drop things that are fun and amusing until I actually start thinking hard about some of the stuff in it and realize it all starts unraveling. IMO, "War World" takes longer than the earlier episodes, which is probably why I like it more. Justice League in general is getting like that.

And Christo's comment sums up how I feel about JL really really well, although I suspect I liked "War World" more than he did.

-- Ed/Ace

[James Harvey]

Originally posted by Spider


Bird_Boy,

And a testosterone-filled Thanagarian thank you to you! :)

Check the JL Episode Guide at this site (http://wf.toonzone.net). It'll help you plan out the rest of your tapes -- gaurenteed!

[Spider]

Originally posted by Jim Harvey


Check the JL Episode Guide at this site (http://wf.toonzone.net). It'll help you plan out the rest of your tapes -- gaurenteed!

Jim Harvey,

Thanks. I've now bookmarked it. :)

[MattL.]

I was going to post a review up here but then something occured to me.

Think about the way JL is done. Its all one big episdoe presented in two parts.

When you think about it, this is like only seeing the first 15 minutes of a STAS episode and then writing a review about it.

Take Last Son of Krypton for instance, it works much better as a full movie than it does cut up into chunks.

Just my humble opinion but I think it might be better to reserve the talkbacks on episodes until both parts are in.

They may be shown seperately but their made to work as a whole so I think that we should judge them as a whole. I think that would be more fair.

of course maybe its just me. I never understood people who like to compare parts of the original Star Wars trilogy either because to me its all one big story. I dont understand people who watch the whole thing and become obsessed with minor characters like Wedge and Bobba Fett either. Am I the only one who watched it for Lukes story, you remember him the main character? :p

[RockyMtnBri]

Here's one for ya:

This story arc is very reminiscent of an old Fantastic Four story (issues 90-93) where the Thing is captured by Skrulls to fight in a gladiator-type contest.

The Thing is lured upstate and knocked out and captured by Reed Richards, who really turns out to be a Skrull in disguise. Ben Grimm is taken to a planet that resembles 1930s Earth, and is told that he must fight opponents in an arena. The catch is that the loser's planet is thrown out of orbit by a large weapon, so all fighters have the incentive to win. Ben befriends a robot fighter named Torgo, and convinces him to fight with him against the Skrulls. Meanwhile, the FF are trying to find Ben's whereabouts, which they finally do, making their way to the Skrull planet. They find and rescue Ben just after they destroy the orbit machine and free all of the competitors.

Sound familiar? I'll wait and watch part two just to see how much more familiar it turns out to be!

[The Green Hornet]

god i love FF

so many great memories

[Domino]

I've considered the points posted that counter my assertion that Superman could have ended the fight more quickly, and to the authors I say that it doesn't stand to reason that Superman would refuse to fight, and then proceed to take a beating, only to break down and fight anyway. Wouldn't it have made more sense to just fight and get it over with without taking a beating? Or to simply choose not to fight at all and stand by it?

As far as using his heat vision on an untested subject, he also threw a big chunk of stone wall on the guy too, without seeing if he could take it. Surely by now he has enough control over his heat vision to simply warm the guy's hands up? Or better still, to burn the chunk of wall the guy is about to throw at him? All I'm saying, is that I hate it when powers are conveniently forgotten to advance a story. It's lazy storytelling and bad story editing.

[DerekPowers]

well, "war world" prt 1 was okay, nothing too great.

the big fight between sups and dragga had some nice visuals, but i was expecting more, to be honest. hopefully the sups/mongul fight will be more intense.

the one thing that bugged me was that superman didnt resist at all when he was beemed to war world. he just finished saying he wouldnt fight, then he just stands there as they beem him, and you cant say he wasnt expecting it cause they beemed dragga first.

also, supermans s just looked really bad, as usual.

and is it just me or was the collesium thing where they watched the fights look alot like the gl ep's courtroom? thats a bit of a complaint i have w/ jl on a whole, alot of things look very similar and dry, like not much time or thought went into designing something interesting.

overall though, it was an okay ep.

[The Green Hornet]

in the comics supes threatened to lobotomize an oppoent (in Whats so Funny about Truth, Justice, and the American Way?)

he actually gave him a concussion using his heat vision as a laser scalpel

how cool is that? he EASILLY could have fought to knock dragaa out in moments instead of a dragged out fight

[Joe Wagner]

Originally posted by TheFastestManAlive
in the comics supes threatened to lobotomize an oppoent (in Whats so Funny about Truth, Justice, and the American Way?)

he actually gave him a concussion using his heat vision as a laser scalpel

how cool is that? he EASILLY could have fought to knock dragaa out in moments instead of a dragged out fight

Wasn't that great to see tho! :D

The Brit thought that he had finally been able to prove that sometimes it takes extreme violence to take someone down and Supes was able to trick him into thinking he had killed his entire team and labotomized him. It was great when he revealed that he had just tricked him into thinking all of that and proving that a hero doesn't have to be "extreme" in order to prevail.

-Joe

[RockyMtnBri]

My spin is that you don't need the "Mike Tyson" approach (i.e., knocking an opponent out in 90 seconds or less) to showcase a good fight. Take the Superman episode where he fights Kalibak (one of my faves) - no clear victory is seen until Supes just throws him away!

I guess that's why I always enjoyed Thing vs. Hulk fights - everybody knows that the Hulk can easily beat the Thing, but Ben still does his best. I still remember the line from FF 167: "... three on the ground (the rest of the FF) know an all-too-true fact: against the Hulk, the Thing cannot win!"

'Legacy' was also another fave - I liked seeing Supes driven as far as he was to disintegrate the Para Demons, drop the Furies, knock out Granny Goodness, and take and deliver a royal beating to Darkseid himself!!!

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by MattL.
I was going to post a review up here but then something occured to me.

Think about the way JL is done. Its all one big episdoe presented in two parts.

When you think about it, this is like only seeing the first 15 minutes of a STAS episode and then writing a review about it.



I totally agree. This is my attitude. I've said some cutting things about part 1, but I'm suspending judgement until I see the whole thing.

FWIW, this is one reason I don't buy the notion that JL can be fixed by making it an hour in length. Each ep is already an hour (minus commercials); all you're asking is to see it in one chunk instead of being spaced out over the course of 8 days.

[redDragon]

I thought this was an all right ep. A bunch of things bugged me though.

Draaga's fight with that alien was really fast.....though it was supposed to be it was still a bummer.

In the beginning of Draaga's and Supes fight, Draaga seemed really wimpy for some reason and then he kept on hitting Supes. Supes took quite a beating and I would think he wouldn't have bloodied THAT easily. Also Draaga's foot was about twice or so bigger than Supes' head. When they were just facing each other Draaga didn't seem that much bigger than Supes. Maybe Draaga's spieces just has big feet? During the fight I kept expecting Supes to stop one of Draaga's punches with his hand, like he's done in STAS, but he didn't. Supes also didn't try that hard to convince Draaga that they didn't have to fight.

I must agree, the throwing the big rocks at each other was very lame and that the whole fight just wasn't worth it. The fight seemed more like a bar fight than a true fight.

J'onn J'onzz expressions during the fight were amusing, but almost commercial like.

Hawkgirl's voice didn't really move me, it seemed really deadpan and robotic.

Mongul's skin clashed with the purple IMHO.

A question, why was J'onn laying on the side of the croc pool with the rest of the, I'm assuming, dead aliens?

[Toddman]

Originally posted by redDragon

A question, why was J'onn laying on the side of the croc pool with the rest of the, I'm assuming, dead aliens?

I'm assuming that's where they disposed of the aliens who were either already defeated (i.e. killed) in combat or were already injured and unable to compete. J'onn was not able to fight, so he was thrown out w/the rest of the non-competetors.



Originally posted by redDragon

Mongul's skin clashed with the purple IMHO.

I'm surprised that some people don't like the purple and yellow color scheme. It's taken from Mongul's original comic book design. By the way, purple and yellow are actually complimentry colors just like blue is to orange and red is to green. Pairing those colors together brings out the full vibrancy of each.

Now if Mongul was wearing orange, that would clash w/his yellow skin. Yikes!

Toddman

[redDragon]

Originally posted by Toddman

I'm surprised that some people don't like the purple and yellow color scheme. It's taken from Mongul's original comic book design. By the way, purple and yellow are actually complimentry colors just like blue is to orange and red is to green. Pairing those colors together brings out the full vibrancy of each.


I think it mainly has to do with the shades of yellow and purple that were chosen.

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

Originally posted by Toddman


I'm assuming that's where they disposed of the aliens who were either already defeated (i.e. killed) in combat or were already injured and unable to compete. J'onn was not able to fight, so he was thrown out w/the rest of the non-competetors.




I'm surprised that some people don't like the purple and yellow color scheme. It's taken from Mongul's original comic book design. By the way, purple and yellow are actually complimentry colors just like blue is to orange and red is to green. Pairing those colors together brings out the full vibrancy of each.

Now if Mongul was wearing orange, that would clash w/his yellow skin. Yikes!

Toddman

Blue is to orange? I thought blue is to red.

[Toddman]

Originally posted by JusticeLeagueLegion


Blue is to orange? I thought blue is to red.

Actually, in art complimentary colors are determined with a color wheel.

The way to make a color wheel is to draw a circle and divide it into six equal parts. Then label each "slice" with one of the following colors: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple (the colors should be side-by-side in the same order they appear in the spectrum). The colors that are located directly across from each other on the wheel are complimentary colors. Each set consists of one primary color and one secondary color.

When used in the same design, they are supposed to be the most pleasing to the eye. However, if you mix any two complimentary colors together, you get brown. Red and blue make purple.

Anyway, I hope that was somewhat informative.

Why do feel like a high school art teacher all of a sudden?

Toddman

[mbaker]

I know alot of you have been saying that Superman has been weaker than you'd like to see him in Justice Leauge. Well a friend of mine made a point that it's not Superman who's weak, it's some of the villians who are getting stronger, and figuring out Superman's weak spots through experience. Lex Luthor knew about how red sunlight temporarily weakens him, and used Kryptonite for lethal injection in "Legacy". Just a though.

[Livewire]

I don't know if this has already been contemplated, but I was surprised to see only four JL members. I thought there were always supposed to be five?

[The Mad Hatter]

Nah, the creators have always said that they'll be mixing up the numbers of characters... the Grodd story, for example, will only have Green Lantern and Flash.

[FLIPMODE]

I'd have to agree with those who stated this is just LAZY writing, especially for Supes. I remember before the show came out, I read they wanted this JL show, to shadow all the negetive thoughts of DC animated heroes that "SuperFriends" Created.

But especially after THIS episode, I think that they are failing to accomplish the goal. Infact they're adding to the Sillyness of the Logic that they could be using. Anyone who grew up watching Superfrinds, will have a million and two laughable complaints about the show. And they all stem from dumb things the heroes did, OR could have done to say the day.

It's 2002, and HERE W GO AGAIN! Your expecting smart writing from, people who created Superman, TAS, Batman TAS, so how irs it that in THIS day and age, and with WHO'S in control, can they NOT write Supes, Smartly using his Powers. Like FLIGHT!!! And Super Speed???? These are things that ANY kid in their Living rooms would have written into the Supes Vs. Draaga Battale scene!!

It's as If the Superfriends Witers came back for this episode.

It's pathetic. Honestly I dont watch JL, for Nostalgic reasons, I watch it so I can witness Justice being done for a team of DC animated Heroes. Brought up to date with quality, not this episode.

[Palin Dromos]

Not my fav ep but that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it. Guess I'm not quite as demanding of my entertainment as some.

Anyway...Question...Is the Battlefield where Supes and Draaga fight on the same planet as the arena? During Mongul's speeches he never said "here on Warworld" just refered to Warworld. And the striking contrast between the Arena city and the ruins, and the fancy transport gizmo (yes I know 1 planet can have many climates, bear with me). Two planets were shown when GL and Hawkgirl followed the ion trail. I just think it woulld be a clever way to play against our assumptions to have 2 planets involved in War World (singular) as opposed to one. At the end of part II Mongul could also be exiled to the second planet after his defeat by Supes.

Maybe I'm just overly inventive but... hey you never know.

Also what is Draaga's history in the comics?

[Livewire]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Mad Hatter
Nah, the creators have always said that they'll be mixing up the numbers of characters... the Grodd story, for example, will only have Green Lantern and Flash.


Thanks for the info, Mad Hatter. I had no idea. That means no J'onn in the Grodd ep? Fiddlesticks!!


And I agree with you, FLIPMODE. As I said in an earlier post, I found some of the dialogue very amusing at times.(-and I don't think it was meant to be!). I sometimes wonder if Tim Daly is relieved that he isn't the voice of Supes in JL. I can't imagine his voice saying some of these lines.

[Karnak2k]

Well I have to add that I was a bit disappointed with this episode. I missed it last week so only just caught it tonight. This has been said before, but I'll say it again, while JL isn't really bad, it's seems all the worse because it has so much unfufilled potential. The points:

- As someone pointed out, why do all the aliens sound so boringly human? While that n'sync sounding alien was bad, that alien grandma was horrible! I half expected her to hunch over and mutter something like "young whippersnappers!".

- Is it just me or does Superman's face look off? I can't quite pinpoint it, but it's like his face has one too many lines, almost wrinkles. And his chin seems way longer than it should be. Yes it's a minor complaint, but it gets so distracting especially when compared to the clean look of STAS.

-Why oh why must superman be so single minded when it comes to his powers. He has superspeed (and consequently superreflexes?), flight, superbreath, heat vision, strength, "nigh" invulnerability (heh love that term) and yet all he can do is punch. The sad part is that this isn't a problem only typical of the JL cartoon, it's a reoccuring problem in most Superman comics. I'm still chuckling how a "super samarai" in the latest comic nearly beheaded "the man who saved the freaking universe from a galactus rip-off". But anyway, the funny part is that in Superman #152 he was finally goaded into using combinations of his powers at once, and by none other than Mongul! That and Action Comics #775 (spectacular issue) are two of my favorites now.

Ok went rambling there for sec, but anyway the fight with Draaga was pathetic. It went from stale punch throwing to "lets see how can throw the biggest boulder". Haha reminds me of that Bugs Bunny cartoon where they spoof The Barber of Seville and Bugs and Elmer pull out bigger and bigger guns. Like others have pointed out and I gleefully remember now, the fights with Kalibak and Doomsday were soo much better. People can learn from their mistakes, why can't this new crew learn from their successes? Owell, I guess if 60 years of comic writers can't use superman's powers creatively, maybe it's too much to ask of Timm and Co.

On a better note, I rather liked Mongul's voice actor. But isn't WarWorld supposed to be something more than a glorified WWF tournament? I mean isn't Mongul supposed to be a despot that would sooner kill his followers than whine about how the games are getting booed?

I'm all for judging this arc as a "complete" entity, but that won't make this particular episode suck less for me.

[JohnStewart-GL]

let me shed some light on this. i think its probably hard for Superman to use two powers at once. Think about it. its hard to p[uch and kick at the exact same time try. espiecially when u use the same side(left brain right brain).So in the heat of battle its probably hard for him to do so. just a thouht though.

[CadaverousEyes]

That doesn't excuse how he just stood there when those robots shot him. He saw them before Mongul gave his final warning, but instead of taking off, like anyone with any common sense would do, he just said no and waited for them to blast him.

[The Green Hornet]

let me shed some light on this. i think its probably hard for Superman to use two powers at once. Think about it. its hard to punch and kick at the exact same time try. espiecially when u use the same side(left brain right brain).So in the heat of battle its probably hard for him to do so. just a thouht though

we've seen him use all his powers before

im wondering this-- instead of letthing that huge slab of stone hit him, why didnt he blast it to pieces with heat vision or cut it in half with it?

[Frank White]

It's my theory that Supermans restraint results from Legacy. I mean I think he honestly scared himself and is heavily stopping himself from using his full powers on any living being. I mean in STAS Supes could be brutal at time, I mean remember when he was fighting Bane, true he restrained a little, but afterwards he could have killed Bane, in fact I'm surprised he didn't. And remember his fights agaisnt Livewire or Metallo. Livewire still has human skin(well sort of) and a punch from Superman could kill her, and when he first met Metallo, he didn't know exactly what Metallo was made of, he just knew it was John Corbin, so hitting him and sending him through buildings could have killed him too.

Anyway, I still think the fight with Dragga, could have been handled better, Superman can "go easy" on a dangerous enemy without playing himself too much, refer to his fights agaisnt Bizarro. Bizarro is just as strong as Superman but Supes was still smart enough to subdue him without seriously hurting him.

Oh well overall this episode gets, ***1/2

[Frank White]

Opps, I didn't read Squalls, post, I don't want it to look like I was copying him , eh I guess great minds think alike.

[The Guard]

http://wf.toonzone.net/WF/justiceleague/episodes/WarWorld/Pt2/05.jpg

Episode #13 - War World Part 2
Original Airdate - March 3rd, 2002

Superman must face down Mongul and Draaga for the fate of himself and the world.

Comments?

[The Green Hornet]

i hope this ep is good

after seeing part 1 about 3 times now, its not so bad

the previews for this make it look cool- i hope supes opens up

[James Harvey]

Here is the poll for the War World Part 2 discussion thread.

[The Green Hornet]

DANG IT ALL


Superman: "then ALL bets are OFF!"

Me: "HUZZAH!!! FINALLY!! TEAR HIM UP SUPERMAN!!!!!!!"

Dragaa: no hes mine!

Me: EXPLETIVE EXPLETIVE EXPLETIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that was the ABSOLUTE WORST WAY TO END THAT SHOW

its obvious to me now that the writers for the show have no respect for Superman-- they wouldnt even let us FINALLY know that hes not a wimp

how worthless

a 5 star episode became a 1 star simply because of the ending

oh and the stupid way they beat the cannon-- hawkgirls MACE? please-- why not have GL put a cap on the cannon?

[Frank White]

Oh my god, that was horrible, Hawkgirl can stop a blast that can destroy a planet with her mace? Why didn't Green Latern do something about that gas? MM weakness was never explained Superman just stands there and lets himself get blasted? blah! The only good points were the dialoug between Hawkgirl and Green Latern, Martian Manhunter actually taking advantage of his shape shifting, and sort of seeing Superman try to fight. At least we know Superman could have easily wasted Mongul if he wanted.

[BLACKHEART]

That was total crap with the cannon. Why isn't Hawkgirl the leader since that mase is so powerful? I hated the ending too. Superman should have taken that jobber without breaking a sweat

[Borg4of3]

"You're still alive!" That single moment made me cheer! No more arguments from me about Superman being taken down by 3 robots! That entire rebellion scene was pretty well executed in my opinion. It didn't have the poignancy of Maximus's defiance, but it ceratinly was enough to make me smile at Mongul's shock and surprise!

After that, we had even more nice teamup scenes with GL and Hawkgirl. Great - now let the romance debate begin! :rolleyes: Actually, I thought it strayed far enough away from romance to be considered simply a respectable comaraderie. Also - finally, some real character interaction!

Thanks to this episode, however, Mongul tends to be more of a joke than a Darksiddian-level threat. If Superman wasn't just "making it convincing", its easily apparent that Superman could have handed his butt to him. Oh well, hopefully he'll be the cockamanie baddie who keeps on returning with a new plan of vengence. Heck, he still has quite a few more stories up his sleeve yet to be told!

A few nitpics tho- J'onn's powers seem to be fluctuating. Sometimes it seems to be perfectly fine, and then suddenly the plot gas comes back in full force and ruins what could have been a pretty clever idea. That and the Hawkgirl vs. PlanetDestroyer thing is pretty suspicious. And surely, a detonation of such a device would have blown that planet up too?

[Bird Boy]

it was better than pt 1...still not the best one...but, it was enjoyable..

-BB

[The Green Hornet]

i THINK the reason that the cannon didnt blow up warworld is because it wasnt aimed for the exact spot to cause a chain reaction a la Krypton

AND I JUST SAW THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD PREVIEW IT LOOKS AWESOME!!!!!!!

[Frank White]

Originally posted by Bird Boy
it was better than pt 1...still not the best one...but, it was enjoyable..

-BB

That aint saying much

[Blade1225]

what happened on the preview for Brave and the Bold??

[Domino]

So Superman gets the crap beat out of him again for another ten minutes. Frank Miller must have loved this episode.

[The Flash]

It was......bad. But did anybody else notice somebody that looked a LOT like Ambush Bug in the crowd?? He stood up and cheered. I gotta gooooood kick outta that.

[SirLemming]

My mind wandered for a minute... and then the cannon was being destroyed and I was like "Wait, what just happened?" I dunno, seemed kind of weird.
I thought there were some interesting aspects to this episode, like the thing where Draaga burned the S on his chest, and how the people were really behind Superman and the kid spraypainted his logo all over the place. But overall, like all Justice League episodes so far, it really didn't wow me like Batman always has.
I thought the artwork looked better in places. Specifically when those captured alien dudes were talking to Superman, the shading was nice. The fire effects were a bit out of place, though.


Some random, slightly amusing observations:

Jean Jones's voice actor is definitely strange. His half-hearted "No!" really cracks me up. His chant for Superman was pretty weird too.
I thought it was funny how Green Lantern just finished saying that they couldn't go off in space because his ring might run out of power... and then 2 seconds later he used it to pointlessly float from one section of ground to a slightly higher section of ground.

[Borg4of3]

Originally posted by TheFastestManAlive
i THINK the reason that the cannon didnt blow up warworld is because it wasnt aimed for the exact spot to cause a chain reaction a la Krypton

AND I JUST SAW THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD PREVIEW IT LOOKS AWESOME!!!!!!!

I guess I'll go by that. I guess you can't kill anyone by driving over a gun, but if you fire it at someone... that's enough to explain that part for me, but the mace thing still is just wierd.

And, come on people! Surely you're not watching the show just to bash it! :rolleyes:

[The Green Hornet]

no i watch the show in the appearantly VAIN hope that ill see some cool use of super-powers and for superman to deliver a solid beating to someone

[FLIPMODE]

Well everyone pretty muched summed up my thoughts. I'll list it in points.

-WHY OH WHY could'nt Supes get the chance to beat the crap out of Mongul. This is the JL!!, I really dont care if Draaga Fights Mongul,...AT ALL! Supes finally caught an attitude, then BAM, it's over. I hate the writers of that ep.

- I liked HG and GL. It really saved the show from TOTAL, stupidity. That and that J'ohn, did something cool. But he SHOULD have been able to pull it off. He should shape shift alot more. And he SHOULD have told Supes through Telepathy that the cannon was destroyed.

In defense of HG, I found it ALMOST PERFECTLY fitting that she stopped the cannon.

Why?? Well IF you had'nt Noticed, her Mace has the technology to hit an object, and resonate with some electrical energy that keeps the Destruction of an object going,..well after she's hit it.

THE BAD PART: They DID NOT, animate it that way. They were stupid to show her hit the "BLAST" of the cannon. DUH, she should have just hit the cannon before the blast, that way we could see the Cannon crumble from her Technology mace.

That's the way they showed it in other episodes, they dropped the ball ...again.

Other than that, we need a GL, Batman, and MM, episode, and no one else. That should make a good story.

[Failure]

Dangit! FastestManAlive, I'm 100% with you!

First of all, I was glad to see that Superman didn't hit the deck in the beginning when the lasers were shooting him. His "give me your best shot" line got my hopes up. Then... ugh!

The exact scene you quoted TFMA, "then all bets are off" I was thinking FINALLY Superman's gonna let loose! Then Dragaa comes in and finishes off Mongul while everyone else is standing around?!?! That Sucks!!!

And Hawkgirl's mace can reverse a death ray that can take out a planet? Uhh, sure.

Everything could've been made up with a final Supes-Mongul showdown, but ugh. I'm so disappointed.

[Borg4of3]

oop, hehe, of most of the people who replied so far, you were the one i wasn't targetting. sry!

first off, Superman did NOT get his butt kicked for the whole episode. And it was easily apparent that he could have taken down Mongul, espcially when he smiled and said, "making it convincing" before punching Mongul in the face again. That fight wasn't about a DBZ-level pissing contest or who was the most powerful.

But I will agree that the ending wasn't too anticlimactic. The show seemed to focus more on Draaga's honor than Superman's virtue at times, so it was fitting that he deliver the final few blows. Superman still delivered quite a beating tho, for all who wanted to see him push that purple rag-doll around

[Knight]

So much for a Superman highlight episode. He just proved he is very good at taking a beating. Very disappointing. Just when it looks like Superman is about to have his way with Mongul, Dragga shows up and we get to see Mongul get beat by Dragga.Wow thanks for the Dragga spotlight ep because thats what it was. Although its pretty obvious Mongul couldnt beat Supes anyway I atleast wanted him to realize that. Well maybe we'll get a real Superman spotlight episode next season.

And Hawkgirls mase can deflect a blast that can destroy a planet. Come on! They have gone way overboard with this mase thing.

[The Green Hornet]

you know ive been thinking about this for some time now

are the writers for JL (the show) even TRUE comic book fans of ANY book but Batman (and i say this because they just seem to portray him as some Deus ex Machina)?

do they REALLY know who these heroes are?

do they have ANY sense of logic and completion of ideas?

EVERY episode seems to have major plot holes (Jonn being weakened by "something") or just doesnt make sense (hawkgirls mace beating that cannon) heck im suprised that the batman didnt just show up on warworld to shut down the cannon given the way this show and his character are written

maybe CN put waaayyyyy to much pressure on these guys to churn out season 1 and they simply wrote down the first ideas that came to mind and didnt ever bother to go back over them to see how stupid some of them are

i know im being critical, but i would have expected this show above ALL to be absolute top knotch in writing and animation

[Trent Lane]

Well, despite a hanging ending, it was overall a good episode. Superman could've been given a little more power, but it was still decent. Hawkgirl and Green Lantern's interaction was again well done. My one big question- what was in the atmosphere that affected J'onn that nuch? They kind of passed it over, I think...

[JohnStewart-GL]

i liked it. i gave it the highest rating because i like how heroic superman was. I loved seeing the crowd chant his name.
The way Hawkgirl and John interacted was fun. I liked Jonn tranformation. The only thing i didnt like was Superman man didnt finish he fight with Mongul. but oh well at least we know Supes isnt a weakling for fact now. And it was cool when Draaga branded his self.

[Frank White]

Originally posted by FLIPMODE
Well everyone pretty muched summed up my thoughts. I'll list it in points.

-WHY OH WHY could'nt Supes get the chance to beat the crap out of Mongul. This is the JL!!, I really dont care if Draaga Fights Mongul,...AT ALL! Supes finally caught an attitude, then BAM, it's over. I hate the writers of that ep.

- I liked HG and GL. It really saved the show from TOTAL, stupidity. That and that J'ohn, did something cool. But he SHOULD have been able to pull it off. He should shape shift alot more. And he SHOULD have told Supes through Telepathy that the cannon was destroyed.

In defense of HG, I found it ALMOST PERFECTLY fitting that she stopped the cannon.

Why?? Well IF you had'nt Noticed, her Mace has the technology to hit an object, and resonate with some electrical energy that keeps the Destruction of an object going,..well after she's hit it.

THE BAD PART: They DID NOT, animate it that way. They were stupid to show her hit the "BLAST" of the cannon. DUH, she should have just hit the cannon before the blast, that way we could see the Cannon crumble from her Technology mace.

That's the way they showed it in other episodes, they dropped the ball ...again.

Other than that, we need a GL, Batman, and MM, episode, and no one else. That should make a good story.

Blah, what a stale episode that would be, at least add Hawkgirl.

[Bud 'n Lou]

Just a select few of my gripes...

I really hated this episode. The first five minutes alone made me cringe, but I continued watching anyway out of morbid curiosity. :0P
I hated the dialogue, especially J'onn's line, "He's a SUPERMAN!" The whole Superman chanting scene was horrible too.
Also, what was up with that alien gassing Hawkgirl and GL? Why? I don't get it.
Speaking of those two, the arguing was an ok idea, but their lines could've been written better. But GL's apology? Lame.
It really feels like the writers aren't even TRYING! Very frustrating.
I was really embarrassed for the creative team overall.

I'll probably be back with more later. :0)

[The Green Hornet]

do the writers for this show read these forums? i pray to god they do so they can make season 2 what it should be


at the least they should run the scripts by us first so we can correct their MANY mistakes, plot holes and uses of lame dialogue (hes a SUPERMAN -- come on :wakko: )

[Mr. Unspeakable]

MM's VA was all over the place in this ep. what's the deal? Why is all knock-out gas in the universe yellow? Why does Hawkgirl appear to be stronger that Superman? What was making MM weak in the air anyway? Why am I left with questions that should have been answered in the show?

A couple of other comments, I noticed the Ambush Bug look-alike too, now if he'd show up as a villian! Also, from the GL/HG scene in the alien taxi guy's ship, Hawkgirl's wing seem to be real. I'm also glad that they tried to give J'onn something to do besides sit around and say "no" and "oh".

[Frank White]

Man, thinking about it some more Mongul sure is a weakling, I mean even Dragaa was more competion than Mongul. Superman was literally letting Mongul get hits on him. But it was nice to see a LITTLE taste of Supes powers, like when he used superspeed then flew and picked up Mongul.

[Batman 80]

So Mongul didn't die? Perhaps he will be back for a Panic in the sky type story next season.

[cysurf]

Did anyone else notice that the animation for Brave and the Bold looked pretty bad?? Did you see Flash's face? I'll have to see it again, but it did not look too good to me. From what I have seen, I don't have much anticipation from this episode. That Planet of the Apes line was kind of corny if you ask me. :rolleyes:

[Blade1225]

can u describe what happened in the preview for me?

[Livewire]

I'm not exactly sure what to think. I'm still stunned. That was the end? I stared at a black screen thinking, Gee, that can't be it. There has to be more.


I'm a BIG Superman fan, and although I'm not too crazy over the JL version, with it being his spotlight ep, I thought his wimpiness would be over-especially when he said "Your mine" to Mongul. Why did I bother getting even a tiny bit excited?

True, it was better than pt.1, imo, because of the Hawkgirl/GL interaction, but that's about my only reason. (I guess this proves her wings are real.)


So many questions remained unanswered. What was in the atmosphere to weaken MM? And HG's mace is that poweful? Why have anyone else on the team? I think the writers could have come up with a better idea.

And I agree with you, Bud n' Lou. MM's "He's a SUPERMAN" line made me embarrassed and I didn't even write it.

[Apache Chief]

I have to agree with what everyone else is saying. Finally, Superman is all set to kick some ass, then Draaga shows up, and the JL just stands around and watches! What a let down! I'm not watching the show to see these two characters fight, while the JL does pretty much what I'm doing: watching! Let's watch two people trade punches again for about the 100th time this storyline...
Also, "Take your best shot."? WTH? Wouldn't Superman just destroy the robots or, I don't know, fly away if they posed that much of a threat to him?
Oh well, I'm actually one of the people who has really liked the series so far, but this was a misfire. He's hoping next week's talking monkey is interesting.

P.S. I didn't mind the Hawkgirl cannon thing. Yes, she probably just should have smashed the barrel, but maybe the charge that comes out powers-up over distance, or something.

[Buddy Lee]

DAAAAAAMMMMNNNN!!!! Why the hell did the writers have Draaga beat the crap out of Mongul??!! The equivalent of this ending would be if Apollo Creed subbed for Rocky Balboa in the title rematch against Clubber Lang in Rocky III. The writers literally robbed poor Superman of his spotlight episode. These must be the same writers who thought Jar Jar Binks and Greedo firing first were good ideas.

[The Flash]

I have rarely bash JL.....but my God. That was horrible. They actually thought we would LIKE that episode? The voice casting was the worst.......ever. The animation was all right. And the dialog stunk. I hope it's just because CN was making them get the season done on time. That was a disappointment....

[The Green Hornet]

the only VA that was any good in these past two eps was Mongul

[The Flash]

Originally posted by TheFastestManAlive
the only VA that was any good in these past two eps was Mongul

Hardly. They completely cast him wrong.

[The Green Hornet]

i dunno
he sounded somewhat-- charismatic

like hes very used to giving speeches to the masses

i didnt want him to be some deep, raspy voice like the best villian of all , DARKSEID

[The Flash]

I would have liked a cross between who they had do it and Darkseid. He just didn't sound evil enough. >shrug<

[Harvey Dent]

Observations:


According to Hawkgirl's line on that ship, it appears that her wings are organic as someone already mentioned.
John said that he was running low on energy, but nothing was mentioned about how he could recharge it.
Mongul did not appear to be the threat strength-wise that I was hoping for.


Reaction:

The one time outside of "In Blackest Night" when Superman is shown to be super, and the writer completely screws us by not having Big Blue put Mongul in a coma!?! I'm disappointed. Very disappointed.

Thoughts on preview for next episode:

Looks like it might be good, but looks aren't everything. Nice to see the nod to "Planet of the Apes" with that line that Grodd uses ("Take your stinking hands off me, you filthy human!"), but the original is still the best.

"Take your stinkin' paws off me, you damn dirty ape!!!"
-Charlton Heston

[The New Batman]

An awful ending to an awful episode. After thinking about all the JL episodes so far and then watching the Batman episode on CN after this last episode; I've come to the conclusion that Batman:TAS is 100 times better than this show. The writers are not making good use of these characters. I doubt Superman would sacrifice himself to save that planet. The writers MUST make a better Superman. This one is a coward and a weakling. C'mon, a bunch of rocks knocking Superman out at the beginning of part 1? This is a guy who smashes meteors. His personality and strength must be altered and fast. The S:TAS Superman would not think twice of kicking the crap out of an enemy. I also managed to see the preview of next week's episode. C'mon, a talking gorilla episode?! That was obviously stolen from Batman Beyond. I'm really getting bored with JL. If the writers don't come up with better storylines soon, I'm bailing on the show. I'll be better off watching reruns of the 10 year old Batman the animated series.

[The Flash]

Superdude needs to fight back when someones is.......trying to kill him!!

[The Guard]

It's good to see that those robots didn't knock Superman out.

J'onn's lines were awful:

"He's more than that. He's a SUPERMAN"

He doesn't even sound like the same character. Maybe Carl had a cold?

I love the animation of the crowd when Mongul says "The people have spoken." Multi-colored dots. Woohoo.

"Oww, get off my wing." Heh. I was right about organic wings.

You would think Green Lantern would start LOOKING to get trapped with gas.

That scream of pain by Draaga when he branded himself was terrible. Lasted two seconds.

Finally we see that Green Lantern's ring runs out of power. Although it had enough to get them home.

Superman showed some emotion talking about Krypton.

Why didn't J'onn go intangible when he was getting shot at? Yes, his powers were blunted, but he could shapeshift, couldn't he?0

I have a hard time believing that Hawkgirl can repel a laser that could destory a planet, and then that the resulting explosion didn't level the planet it was on. I don't care WHAT kind of mace she has. The shock should have thrown her into space.

"All bets are off. You're mine." was cool. My next thought was: Here comes Draaga. Yep. Tigger intervened. It would have been great to see Superman beat him to a pulp, but...we got to see...Tigger.

Did anyone else find it hilarious that when Green Lantern told Draaga to keep his guard up on the left, and Draaga did, Draaga got NAILED?

I hated this two-parter. It was poorly written, poorly acted, and an insult to it's source material.

[The Green Hornet]

uhm that talking gorilla in BB is a TOTAL rip off of Gorilla Grodd


Grodd is a CLASSIC villain

dont you dare claim hes a rip off of bb =P

[JTurner954]

Regarding Hawkgirl's mace hitting the blast: There was a thread here talking about if Hawkgirl has any powers. Maybe that mace has something to do with it. It could be (but probably not) a setup of another origin episode.

I liked this one fine. Mongul's voice was more tolerable here. I didn't like the "fly away" ending, but I was ok with it.

Maybe it's just me, but this sort of reminded me of "Gladiator".

[The Green Hornet]

hmmmm i see your point

it DOES look like a rip of Gladiator on a basic level

[Dark Knight]

OK heres my take on the episode. I have my share of pros and cons but i must say this episode was BETTER than I expected it to be after part one. Overall I really enjoyed it. Definately inferior to the other episodes so far and definately not what I was expecting from a "Superman Focused" episode, but for what it actually was I thought it was pretty cool. So here I go:

Cons:

-My biggest complaint was the whole never explaining why the heck MM was weakened. "Something in the atmosphere" just isn't enough.
-The Superman Mongul fight could have been a LOT better. I dont really mind that Draaga got to finish him so much as that it was pretty much a fist fight. Did Superman forget that he has Heat vision, superbreath, superspeed... flight??? And what about Mongul? Dont know much about him but I was under the impression that he was supposed to be some big time baddie... he came off as kinda pathetic.
-Martian Manhunters Voice acting has been waaay better. I mean I know the guy isnt the most emotional superhero but His "NO!"s were pathetic.
-Its a shame that this was the superman focused episode. There should be another one that maybe focuses more on superman instead of having him pop up in a place that otherwise has nothing to do with him and exploring the politics of that place. Hopefully in season 2 we'll get to revisit some of his old STAS stuff. That would be a TRUE Supes focused episode.

Pros:

-The BEST part was defintely the HG GL interaction. I can really see the characters shaping up significantly! The more stuff like this we get the better!
-While at first I groaned at J'onn's "He's a Super man" line. I really LOVED the whole Superman Propaganda plot element and that Martain Manhunter started it. That was cool.
-DRAAGA! I went into this episode thinking that Mongul would be the cool villain id be introduced to, but Draaga totally stole the show from him in my opinion. That scene where he he burns the "S" in his chest and his interaction with Superman (who while maybe not used in the most creative ways was right on the money with his character) was great. By the end of the episode I found it WAY more fitting that Draaga got to deliver the final blow. After all it was his planet that was threatened.
-One of the less significant, but still noteworthy positive aspects was that in my opinion the animation in this episode was great! A lot of the time it looked like your standard JL animation but every now and then (Like the opening when he's being blasted by the robots) it suddenly improved.
-OK I should've known that I would be the ONLY person who actually thought it was cool that Hawkgirl batted the beam back into the cannon with her Mace. But, I definately thought it was cool. I mean its a superhero cartoon Hawkgirl's mace should be as powerful as they want it to be. Its not like they're overusing the darn thing. The whole display of power just boosted my already growing love for Her.

... If I can think of anything else I'll post it later.

[Karkull]

The Good

The Gladiator overtones, the Green Lantern & Hawkgirl scenes, Mongul's showmanship, Draaga, the alien girly mag, ;) .

Hawkgirl and Green Lantern were great in this episode.

The Bad

Superman. Would he really let Mongul beat him to death just to save another planet? Didn't he have any faith that J'onn would stop the death ray? Does Superman just want to die? Then he doesn't even get to deliver the final blow. Hopefully Season Two will deliver a better Superman episode.

J'onn's lines were awful too.

[Dark Knight]

Originally posted by Karkull


Would he really let Mongul beat him to death just to save another planet? [/B]

Um... yes. I dont get what the debate about that is. Does anyone think that Superman could live with himself if he beat Mongul and Draaga's planet was destroyed? Are we forgetting Superman's entire origin in which his homeplanet was blown up and noone but he survived? I would hope that kind of an experience would give him sympathy for not wanting to see other planets blown up.

[Joker85]

Well, it wasn't great, but it was better than part 1!
I really liked Hawkgirl this epp, and Green Lantern too. I can see those two forming a relationship... :)
I hope next weeks is better. Heck, with a Flash/GL team up, how could you lose!!!

[Caped Crusader]

And I thought part one was bad! Athough part two was slightly better than part one (SLIGHTLY!), it was still terrible! There were so many unaswered questions and things wrong in this episode that I don't know where to begin...


1. What exactly was it in the atmosphere that was sapping MM of his powers? And if he had no power left, why didn't he return to his original Martian form?

2. Hawkgirl's mace being that powerful...Give me a break!


3. MM's line: "He's a SUPERMAN!!" Ugh!!

4. And just when I thought Superman was done being a wimp, Draaga defeats Mongul, and I never get to find out!

I'm probably forgetting a lot more, but I don't have enough time to mention them all. :(

I'll say one thing good about this episode, though: The interaction between HG and GL was probably the best part (but even that couldn't save this episode.)

(Oh, and Guard, I found it funny that Draaga got nailed after listening to GL's advice as well. :D )

[The Guard]

My theory on what "sapped" J'onn's powers.

He's vulnerable to fire, correct? Maybe he is also vulnerable to the parts that cause fire. So maybe...maybe the planet was REALLY rich in oxygen or something else. Right? Right?

[Ed Liu]

Howdy all,

I was one of the few avid defenders of "War World Pt. 1" last week. The generic, predictable plot wasn't a problem because I knew exactly WHERE the show was going. The trick to make it enjoyable is HOW you get there, and I thought the first episode set up a fun way to get there.

Within the first 5 minutes of this new episode, almost all the goodwill I built up from part 1 got squandered. I was bitterly disappointed by the second part of "War World," for all the same reasons why I've been disappointed by all the other episodes of JL so far.

THE GOOD:
- There's no doubt left in my mind that Superman was holding back in the first episode. Draaga shows up again during the Mongul fight, and Superman throws him around like a rag doll, pretty much saying "Go away, kid, you're bothering me." Also, that "take your best shot" taunt Superman throws at Mongul for his robots meant (to me) that he knew those robots may sting, but they aren't doing squat to him damage-wise.

- The bit where Draaga brands himself with the "S". That was pretty hard core, IMO.

- GL and Hawkgirl's squabbling. I think their timing sucked, and I'd think they'd both be able to keep it under control 'till they got their people back (both of them being military/police types), but it was nice to see the friction.

- Hawkgirl has claws for fingers, making her more hawk-like. This is definitely NOT your father's Hawkgirl.

THE BAD:

Most of my gripes have already been covered. The new ones:

- Why didn't Superman turn those robots at the start of the episode into scrap metal? A far more defiant gesture than saying "take your best shot," IMO.

- I can buy GL and HG arguing. I can NOT buy that they are so involved in it as not to notice their little alien friend setting them up for a gas attack. A total "idiot plot" point.

- The lack of an explanation for the "plot gas" that weakened J'onn really really irked me. I was willing to let it go in part 1, on the assumption that it would get explained in part 2. Now it just annoys me.

Finally, I wasn't crazy about the animation this time around. I remember thinking pretty distinctly during the Mongul fight that Superman's "Bruce Lee" motion was particularly badly done.

On the plus side, next week's episode looks like it's going to be a LOT of fun. I also have faith that Dwayne McDuffie, who wrote the episode, will not let us down.

-- Ed/Ace

[Anubis C. Soundwave]

I want my wasted time refunded.

I was expecting a Superman vs Mongul fight at the end, after Drega/Draaga/whatever got knocked out by Mongul and the Nasty Ray Beam of Doom[TM] was nuked by Hawkgirl.

Instead, Drega magically awakens to fight Mongul, right after Superman's ready to kick booty. And I know he could have hurt Mongul as easily as Goku could beat Mr. Satan(Hercule) in a fight.

Have these persons paid no attention to "The Main Man" on Superman: LSoK? Eh? [I refer to the Superman/Lobo teamup. Great fight.]

This non-showdown was a letdown.

I gave it a star because it did END. >D

[Karnak2k]

Originally posted by The Guard
My theory on what "sapped" J'onn's powers.

He's vulnerable to fire, correct? Maybe he is also vulnerable to the parts that cause fire. So maybe...maybe the planet was REALLY rich in oxygen or something else. Right? Right?

Heh, man that would suck so badly. So essentially Martian Manhunter is now vulnerable to air. I can just see it now:

MM: *gasp* *gasp* *gasp*
Superman: What's wrong J'onn?!
MM: Can't breath! Allergic-to...too-much...air-in...LUNGS!!!****

Good thing BTAS came on right after this show, because after JL I needed to see a quality DC cartoon. This episode started off nicely, despite the stupid knock out gas ploy. GL's ring can thorougly protect him in the void of space and allegedly produce enough oxygen to allow interstellar travel for not just one but three passengers inside his force bubble, yet while Hawkgirl has enough time to try to break and claw the glass shield, he can't shield them with the ring?!

Whatever, despite that plot gas (heh looks like Maxie Zeus just coined the new catch phrase) their later interaction on the planet was fun with a hint of "possibilities". In fact the espisode was going "fairly" ok. While Draaga's branding scream was a bit weak (regardless of the oddity that his skin could be so easily burned), the idea was quite daring to actually dispaly. Everything was "fine" up until the point where MM couldn't even keep shape change without messing up. From then on it just stunk.

My second biggest gripe is that once again Superman looks like he is about to prove himself against Mongul, and the writers decide to snatch it away from him by bringing Draaga. Granted they painted themselves into that ending by depicting Draaga as some "freedom fighter", they really didn't need to use that particular brush. I thought it would get interesting when Supes actually...wait...for...it...flew during a fight and used omigosh, superspeed too! Thank you Timm and Co. for that 1 nanosecond smile.

My biggest gripe though has to be with Hawkgirl and her 100d100 mace of destruction! Let's put aside the fact that she was fast enough to see a beam that is supposed to be traveling fast enough that it will reach another solar system in mere minutes/seconds (which even that is physically impossible). Then put aside the fact that it's ludicrous to "swat" a particle/energy beam away, reflect maybe. But that her mace was able to take an energy blast that could obliterate an entire planet and yet not even be scratched or knocked back? Heh, the funny thing is now that tiny mace is more powerful than Superman's whole body.

Owell, unfortunately I wasn't very much impressed by next week's preview. Just something I noticed, but I really don't like the pastel colors JL uses. I finally realised this when I saw the speeding van scene which reminded me of Intergang in STAS which had much more bold colors.

[Batman 80]

I usually don't complain about JL, but I was disappointed by the fact that Superman did not beat Mongul and Draaga showed up. I was all hyped for a good brawl between Supes and Mongul.

[Maxie Zeus]

Going off-topic a tad:

In the responses in this thread, I'm hearing the anguished cries of cheated fanboys and -girls. We built up "War World" as a big event, the episode that would establish Superman by giving him the knock-down, drag-out fight of his career. And when we didn't get it, we turned on it with a vengeance.

Now people are building up "Injustice For All" as the grand spectacular, with a lot of drooling over the expected "melee" fights. Some are even going so far as the speculate on the exact choreography that will unfold in those fights.

Based on what happened tonight, might I suggest these speculations are premature, and that we shouldn't be raising our expectations to an impossible pitch?

"War World" was not a success, but I don't think it would have attracted this venomous response if it hadn't been for misplaced expectations.

[Spider]

Dark Knight,

"-OK I should've known that I would be the ONLY person who actually thought it was cool that Hawkgirl batted the beam back into the cannon with her Mace. But, I definately thought it was cool. I mean its a superhero cartoon Hawkgirl's mace should be as powerful as they want it to be. Its not like they're overusing the darn thing. The whole display of power just boosted my already growing love for Her."

No, you're not the only one. You have company. Perhaps we have Thanagarian blood in us. ;)

[Failure]

You stated what I've been thinking Maxie. With CN's constant delaying of the "Injustice For All" ep, expectations are getting higher and higher for that ep. I don't really know much about it, so my expectations are pretty grounded, but I think many might be disappointed with it.

[daedalus222]

I went to this thread specifically to see what you had to say and while I am always amazed at the near illogical "this ep rocked" statements from some of the posters--with no elaboration as to why or how (ESPECIALLY) in the face of such obviously poor writing and animation---this ep seemed to bring out harsh criticism from even the most extreme fanboys on this forum.

That preview for Brave and Bold looked pretty ass-ish to me and since Timm has allowed such BS on the shwo thus far (especialy with the gall to come on here and promote the eps like they are future masterpieces) I have no faith that JL under Mcduffie will save it.

My real question is when is Jim harvey or someone going to conduct an interview with Timm --that pointedly addresses some of the complaints (and please not the white wash like we get with the 'news' stories that pick best lines from all of the posts regarding the ep--rather than a true pro/ con listing.


Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
Howdy all,

I was one of the few avid defenders of "War World Pt. 1" last week. The generic, predictable plot wasn't a problem because I knew exactly WHERE the show was going. The trick to make it enjoyable is HOW you get there, and I thought the first episode set up a fun way to get there.

Within the first 5 minutes of this new episode, almost all the goodwill I built up from part 1 got squandered. I was bitterly disappointed by the second part of "War World," for all the same reasons why I've been disappointed by all the other episodes of JL so far.

THE GOOD:
- There's no doubt left in my mind that Superman was holding back in the first episode. Draaga shows up again during the Mongul fight, and Superman throws him around like a rag doll, pretty much saying "Go away, kid, you're bothering me." Also, that "take your best shot" taunt Superman throws at Mongul for his robots meant (to me) that he knew those robots may sting, but they aren't doing squat to him damage-wise.

- The bit where Draaga brands himself with the "S". That was pretty hard core, IMO.

- GL and Hawkgirl's squabbling. I think their timing sucked, and I'd think they'd both be able to keep it under control 'till they got their people back (both of them being military/police types), but it was nice to see the friction.

- Hawkgirl has claws for fingers, making her more hawk-like. This is definitely NOT your father's Hawkgirl.

THE BAD:

Most of my gripes have already been covered. The new ones:

- Why didn't Superman turn those robots at the start of the episode into scrap metal? A far more defiant gesture than saying "take your best shot," IMO.

- I can buy GL and HG arguing. I can NOT buy that they are so involved in it as not to notice their little alien friend setting them up for a gas attack. A total "idiot plot" point.

- The lack of an explanation for the "plot gas" that weakened J'onn really really irked me. I was willing to let it go in part 1, on the assumption that it would get explained in part 2. Now it just annoys me.

Finally, I wasn't crazy about the animation this time around. I remember thinking pretty distinctly during the Mongul fight that Superman's "Bruce Lee" motion was particularly badly done.

On the plus side, next week's episode looks like it's going to be a LOT of fun. I also have faith that Dwayne McDuffie, who wrote the episode, will not let us down.

-- Ed/Ace

[The Green Hornet]

maybe the delays are because they realized how badly theyve done with aspects of other eps and are re-writing the script so it MAKES SENSE :D :D :D

[JTurner954]

Originally posted by Spider
Dark Knight,

"-OK I should've known that I would be the ONLY person who actually thought it was cool that Hawkgirl batted the beam back into the cannon with her Mace. But, I definately thought it was cool. I mean its a superhero cartoon Hawkgirl's mace should be as powerful as they want it to be. Its not like they're overusing the darn thing. The whole display of power just boosted my already growing love for Her."

No, you're not the only one. You have company. Perhaps we have Thanagarian blood in us. ;)

The only one?? Did you miss my comment?

[Dark Knight]

Originally posted by JTurner954


The only one?? Did you miss my comment?

OK so Not the ONLY one. Just a minority. Nice to know im not alone :) .

[Hal Jordan]

Well, this is a waste of a post, because its just a serious echo of everyone else --- but I too just sat there as the ending titles appeared and yelled, "THATS IT?!"

Lets just have all JL members sit around and watch a fighting match on pay-per-view....the ending killed this one. Superman NOT beating the crap out of Mongul was a BADDDDD writing mistake. How could you NOT see that this would be a supreme LETDOWN?

Baffles the mind.

[TheScarecrow]

You know... I was enjoying this episode until that crappy ending. The Hawkgirl/GL interaction was some nice stuff. Superman was willing to die to save a planet because that is the kind of guy he is. And when the Jonn, GL, and Hawkgirl told Kal-El that they destroyed that weapon, I expected Sups to make me proud and hand Mongul is rear to him on a plate...

But then Draaga stepped in and took all the wind out of the episode by doing what Sups was supposed to do, which is beat Mongul to kingdom come. I am extremely disappointed at the writers of this episode, and Bruce Timm for allowing that pathetic ending to happen.

Boo!!!!!!!!! :mad:

[The Green Hornet]

man ANYONE could have scripted the ending better-- hows this

Superman: All bets are OFF

Mongul procedes to whale on Superman, but instead of his punches hurting, Superman stands there unflinchingly , unmoving, unhurt

Mongul gets tired and lets up, marvelling that superman isnt even moved by his blows

Superman: are you done?

Mongul: WHY?!?! WHY WONT YOU FALL?!

Superman: MY turn

Superman proceeds to use his superspeed and heat vision combined with his superstrength to lay a monster of a beating upon mongul who eventually collapses in a heap.

Dragaa comes out and kneels before his new king, Superman who instead places hte crown on Dragaas head and the show ends in basically the same fashion



NOW WOULDNT THAT HAVE BEEN SOO MUCH COOLER THAN WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?!?!?!?

[Borg4of3]

Sounds pretty sweet, but remember that, despite fanboy screamings, the show did focus greatly on Draaga's honor and suffering, him symbolizing all the wrongs that Mongul had done that we hadn't been able to witness, and I would be disappointed if Draaga went through all those countless years of being Mongul's whipping boy (sound familiar?) only to have his 'owner' beaten by someone who didn't belong there to begin with. I mean, what if at the end of Legacy, Orion appeared out of nowhere and beat up Darkseid?
Something like what you said would work, with Superman humiliating the purple powderpuff completely and utterly, but when its apparent that Mongul is no match for the Big Blue, I think Superman should then say something like, "Draaga, would you do the honors?" or "I think you deserve the final blows," And continuing from the point where Draaga pounds into Mongul for his humiliation, honor, and justice. Mongul falls in a heap, wetting himself, and then end as usual, and we all leave happy.

[G. Wen]

I think this was the strongest JL episode so far. The plot ran smoothly compared to previous episodes and the dialogue was more natural, although cliched at some points. I had a problem with Hawkgirl's character. If Hawkgirl is supposed to be the detective, why was GL noticing all the clues (i.e. the vapor trails)? I like to see Hawkgirl's detective side some time during the series!

[Christo]

I didn't mind this episode much. It was better than the first, and helped bring up the two-ep average. Didn't bother me that Hawkgirl's Mace is that powerful nor did it bother me that Draaga beat Mongul. The non-resolution of the plot gas was bothersome, but the thing that bothered me most was the Hawkgirl/Green Lantern sub-plot.

I'm probably in the minority in that I didn't like the HG/GL interaction much at all. It's not that I don't think that it's a bad idea for them to rub each other the wrong way, it's just that it was so inappropriately timed! These two are professionals, fer cryin' out loud! They shouldn't get so involved arguing over stupid things that they get gassed by a taxi driver. I had the same problem with part one -- arguing in the Watchtower instead of going out to save their teammates. I don't mind characters with foibles and conflicts, but I'd be a lot happier if they'd leave the character moments for times that make a little more sense.

[Dark Knight]

Originally posted by Christo
I'm probably in the minority in that I didn't like the HG/GL interaction much at all. It's not that I don't think that it's a bad idea for them to rub each other the wrong way, it's just that it was so inappropriately timed! These two are professionals, fer cryin' out loud! They shouldn't get so involved arguing over stupid things that they get gassed by a taxi driver. I had the same problem with part one -- arguing in the Watchtower instead of going out to save their teammates. I don't mind characters with foibles and conflicts, but I'd be a lot happier if they'd leave the character moments for times that make a little more sense.

So in a show about superheroes dealing with serious issues all the time what other time do we have for this? I for one would be a little annoyed if they made an episode about Hawkgirl and GL arguing over a game of Backgammon or something ;) .

J/k. I see where youre coming from, but I did happen to like the conflict. It just makes things more interesting than if the two of them were to go out there in space all "Superfriends"esque going "We must save our friends and cooperation is the key!" with big dumb expressionless faces.

[warmachine04]

I wasn't able to see the entire ep. due to my dish bad reception at the time. I missed about have the show. From the bits that I saw, the episode steals alot of elements from "Gladiator". I like the way Supes stood up to Mongul with lines like "Give it your best shot". During his battle with Mongul, Supes knew that he had to lose but he at least made Mongul earn his win :). Overall the episode had its disappointments :mad:. I liked how Supes stand out in this one (Power-wise) especially from pt. 1 and the first half of pt. 2 :). Hawkgirl and GL chemistry worked rather well and pretty much sustain the episode, but seeing Hawkgirl deflect the death ray with her mace was pretty hard to swallow :(.

[Kal-el]

To be completely honest, I liked both parts of "War World." IMO, both parts did give a good characterization of Superman. I am convinced that he was not only holding back on Draaga in part one, but merely tolerating Mongul in part two. In the end, he accomplished a number of things in typical Superman fashion. He stood up to a selfish dictator when no one else would, or could (something echoed by Mongul's assistant when he said that the Kryptonian is so powerful he fears no one, even Mongul). The society in general saw this, and the popularity of Superman was unsettling to Mongul. We also got to see some attitude from Superman, something that I feel has been lacking from him. "That wasn't you're name they were chanting, it was mine!" I thought that was a pretty cool line.
Superman also proved to Draaga that honor was not how one dies, but how they live (at bit corny, but got the point across). He showed Draaga that he was willing to sacrifice his "honor" for the greater good of a world he doesn't even know.
On a larger scale, Superman also seemed to bring the 'hope' that he has shown those on earth to War World. Distractions such as the gladiator-like battles are entertaining, but the social issues of a society cannot be hidden forever.
Supes also showed, at least to me, that he is quite powerful. In part one, the fight with Draaga was over when he decided it would be. The scene at the beginning of part two, with the "give me your best shot" line, showed his staying power (moreso than in previous eps). The scene in the prison with the other prisoners not only very well animated, but seemed to give some good insight into Superman. They told him no one has stood up to Mongul like that. In effect, Supes told them that he's dealt with beings like Mongul before (a veiled "Legacy" reference? Maybe. Could have had some bearing on how Supes chose to handle the situation with Mongul). I felt that comment showed that Superman had the utmost confidence on how to handle Mongul and the situation in general.
Finally, the "Then all bets are off. You're mine" comment was awesome. I felt Supes was ready to let go on Mongul, but still not to kill him. When Draaga stepped in, even though we didn't get to see Supes kick some tail (and based on what was shown, we all knew he could quite easily), Draaga taking down Mongul seemed more appropriate than Superman taking him down.
OK. There's still some other comments I have about the ep but they'll have to wait for a bit.

[Maxie Zeus]

Hmmm. "Plot gas" seems to have caught on. I wonder if I can do it again.

Heroite: An ultra-dense, superconductive element that gives superheroes and their artifacts their powers. It is created in the skin of Kryptonians when exposed to yellow sunlight (the way Vitamin D and melanin are created in humans), and is the oxygen-carrying metal in the blood of Martians. GL's ring, Hawkgirl's mace, Wonder Woman's bracelets and lasso, and Batman's batarangs, Batmobile and Batcomputer are all manufactured from the stuff. This explains why Hawkgirl's mace can repel planet-blasting energy beams, and why Batman could have deduced the identity of Jack the Ripper if given only a pair of ticket stubs, some linseed oil, and the collected scores of Gilbert and Sullivan.

Note: The Flash is the only superhero in Justice League whose powers do not derive from heroite. That is why he gets his butt handed to him in every episode.

Being ultra-dense, large quantities of heroite can warp the fabric of space-time and bend the plot into monstrously implausible coincidences. The garbage heap in "War World pt 2" appears to have been saturated with the stuff, which is why it pulled GL, Hawkgirl and Draaga together so that they could meet in exactly the right place at exactly the right time.

If enough heroite is concentrated in a small enough space, the story will experience a plausibility collapse, warping the plot to such a degree that not even infinite amounts of viewer indulgence and ingenuity can overcome it. The result is a black- or plot-hole through which characters or events can fall, landing in the most bizarre places. GL and Hawkgirl, for instance, apparently fell through such a rip in the plot logic, landing at the planet-blasting cannon at the precise moment that it had to be disabled.

A galaxy-sized plot-hole that consumes the entire story and sends it into the crapper is known as a bung-hole.

Back later with a more thorough and serious-minded reaction. . .

[The Guard]

GL's ring can thorougly protect him in the void of space and allegedly produce enough oxygen to allow interstellar travel for not just one but three passengers inside his force bubble, yet while Hawkgirl has enough time to try to break and claw the glass shield, he can't shield them with the ring?!

Because he's too stupid to make his solid light images SOLID. The gas went right through his shield in SECRET ORIGINS

In the responses in this thread, I'm hearing the anguished cries of cheated fanboys and -girls. We built up "War World" as a big event, the episode that would establish Superman by giving him the knock-down, drag-out fight of his career. And when we didn't get it, we turned on it with a vengeance.

I would expect this is because this plot was directly taken from one of the greatest Superman stories ever, which WAS a great story. The writers decided to put their own ideas in this time. Big mistake. I thought we'd see something similair to THE LAUGHING FISH, where the writers took it almost word for word from the actual source material.

My impression of Draaga being branded...

(Draage brands himself) "Ahh. Oh, to hell with it."

Come ON. Wouldn't it have been better if when the searing pain hit him he went:

"GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

[MattL.]

The episodes had a couple flaws but overall I really liked it. Some of the stuff people are bashing is just ridiculous.

Take Hawkgirls mace smacking back the energy beam for instance. Folks this is an energy beam from a Jack Kirby machine in a superhero animation. Isn't it just possible your over analyzing just a bit? If you want real science then watch the Discovery channel.

I've also heard people moaning about the crowd chant. I enjoyed that and I fully understand what J'Onn was trying to do there. I keep hearing crap like "J'Onn would never say that" Whatever. He was attempting to stir the crowd in Supermans favor. Hey, I've been to wrestling shows. It only takes one guy to start a chant.

Heh, and speaking of wrestling as someone who's had to endure people cheering on thugs like Steve Austin and the nWo for years hearing a Superman crowd chant was really quite refreshing. :p

In both parts I thought Supermans characterzation and powers were handled the best that I had seen in the series. It was much, much more on par with the way they were played in STAS. I also thought that his dialog was alot better than alot of people here are giving it credit for.

In Part One he didnt go into a speech about the preservation of life. He simply said no. He stood his ground and didn't feel the need to explain or justify his actions to Draaga, Mongul, or anybody else. I thought that was cool.

In Part Two he had some superb dialog moments and yeah guess what folks, Neubern was damn good in doing Supermans voice. For the first time since the show started I didnt think about Tim Daly once. Neubern has stepped up and now he is Superman.

The story and the animation were great. I love the alien designs, the backgrounds and the ships. Bruce Timms storyboarding work continues to grow by leaps and bounds. Also, it struck me that Supermans current design worked in every scene during these two eps. There wasn't one frame where the extra lines were overdone or crooked. Great effects to. I love the stuff with Lanterns ring. (Of course I'm also one of the few on here who doesn't mind that GL doesnt make wacky fun shapes with it.)

Mongul as a cross between Vince MacMahon and Richard Dawsons character from Running Man finally gives him a personality of his own instead of being a yellow Darkseid wannabe that he was in mainline.

All the stuff with Hawkgirl and Green Lantern was cool. Oh, and *ahem* HER WINGS ARE REAL! YES! Sorry fanboys, but I like this alot better.

Really the only thing that hurts this episode is Draaga taking the punking of Mongul out of Supermans hands. I guess it works in the story but to me it felt a bit anticlimatic, especially since we had that great moment with Superman uttering the line "You're mine."

So the ep gets points off for that. Overall though I really enjoyed it and it succeeded in many ways of improving on the one and only thing was bothering me about the show which was its handling of Superman. If they hadn't yanked that final moment from him at the end, it would've given it full stars.

Still, I think the series kicks butt. By and large its honestly the best version of the Justice League I've ever seen. I think it will only improve as time goes on.

Anyway, thats just my 2 cents and wanting to let Bruce Timm and co. know that there are people on this board who actually like the show.

[Failure]

Originally posted by MattL.
The episodes had a couple flaws but overall I really liked it. Some of the stuff people are bashing is just ridiculous.

Take Hawkgirls mace smacking back the energy beam for instance. Folks this is an energy beam from a Jack Kirby machine in a superhero animation. Isn't it just possible your over analyzing just a bit? If you want real science then watch the Discovery channel.

Yes, it's not real science, but it should stay somewhat plausiable to the character. Does this mean we should accept it if Batman jumped 40 feet into the air? We suspend disbelief for some of the things he does which go against what a human could do, but other things that are too unrealistic shouldn't be done. More than anything, I think the complaints are about sloppy writing. If Hawkgirl had destroyedd the cannon itself, like others have suggested, it would have been perfectly plausible.


Originally posted by MattL.

I've also heard people moaning about the crowd chant. I enjoyed that and I fully understand what J'Onn was trying to do there. I keep hearing crap like "J'Onn would never say that" Whatever. He was attempting to stir the crowd in Supermans favor. Hey, I've been to wrestling shows. It only takes one guy to start a chant.

I don't think J'onn's intent was out of character, it was a very smart thing to do. But the "He's a Superman" line is cheesier than a mountain made of brie. It's just a terrible line, the writers should've came up with something more powerful.


Originally posted by MattL.

In both parts I thought Supermans characterzation and powers were handled the best that I had seen in the series. It was much, much more on par with the way they were played in STAS. I also thought that his dialog was alot better than alot of people here are giving it credit for.

In Part One he didnt go into a speech about the preservation of life. He simply said no. He stood his ground and didn't feel the need to explain or justify his actions to Draaga, Mongul, or anybody else. I thought that was cool.

In Part Two he had some superb dialog moments and yeah guess what folks, Neubern was damn good in doing Supermans voice. For the first time since the show started I didnt think about Tim Daly once. Neubern has stepped up and now he is Superman.

I did like some of Superman's dialogue. There were some very good lines in there. But the problem was they didn't let him back up his tough talk. We've seen a greatly powered down Superman in the series so far, and finally it seems like he's going to have the opportunity to show off his stuff, but all we end up is a bagful of hot air.


Originally posted by MattL.
Really the only thing that hurts this episode is Draaga taking the punking of Mongul out of Supermans hands. I guess it works in the story but to me it felt a bit anticlimatic, especially since we had that great moment with Superman uttering the line "You're mine."

I'm in complete agreement here. If they had let Superman loose in an all-out brouhaha against Mongul, I think we would've let the little stuff pass and everyone's evaluations of the ep would be much, much better.

[gregstones]

Does anybody know what the ratings for Justice League have been like lately? I know it started strong, but based on the general sense of dissatisfaction I've been seeing here, I would guess that the audience is dropping off steadily. I that know I have stopped watching it. Just curious to know how it's doing.

[Killtacular]

Well, it's dropped in the ratings enough for them to kick it off of Monday nights, if you remember that.

I dunno how it's doing on Sundays though.

[Borg4of3]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
Hmmm. "Plot gas" seems to have caught on. I wonder if I can do it again.

Heroite: An ultra-dense, superconductive element that gives superheroes and their artifacts their powers. It is created in the skin of Kryptonians when exposed to yellow sunlight (the way Vitamin D and melanin are created in humans), and is the oxygen-carrying metal in the blood of Martians. GL's ring, Hawkgirl's mace, Wonder Woman's bracelets and lasso, and Batman's batarangs, Batmobile and Batcomputer are all manufactured from the stuff. This explains why Hawkgirl's mace can repel planet-blasting energy beams, and why Batman could have deduced the identity of Jack the Ripper if given only a pair of ticket stubs, some linseed oil, and the collected scores of Gilbert and Sullivan....


It can also be manifested or empowered by a crowd chanting your name(Warworld), thus Draaga's renewed strength to beat the snot out of Mongul; discovering a conspiracy(Blackest Night), causing anyone to easily destroy thousands of Manhunters that proved early on to be nearly impenatrable; and can even be turned over to the bad-guys looking for last minute salvation/revenge (Paradise Lost), as Faust proved by sending the only real damaging hit to Hades. Not too mention running low on time during an episode (Secret Origins) in which case uber-invincible Walker alien thingies can blow up by tripping, or gods can be defeated by destruction of an inanimate object. Or are those manifestations of plot gas? This could get confusing. :p

[Salvor]

Originally posted by MattL.
The episodes had a couple flaws but overall I really liked it. Some of the stuff people are bashing is just ridiculous.

Take Hawkgirls mace smacking back the energy beam for instance. Folks this is an energy beam from a Jack Kirby machine in a superhero animation. Isn't it just possible your over analyzing just a bit? If you want real science then watch the Discovery channel.
Look, I haven't seen the ep yet (I will in a couple of days -- I would wait until I see it to express my feelings about it, but then again I'd rather talk when it's hot) but from what I've read in this thread, man, you're right! People tend to over analyse it a lot. Take the comments on HG's mace for instance, or on Superman's will to sacrifice himself for the sake of the planet: it's called imaginary tales ppl! :) They're superheroes with great power whose deeds are heroic. So HG doing this with a mere mace is a bit extreme, big deal.

I think this overanalizing thing issues forth from the big bashing wave that's been keeping the board busy for a while now. It seems like subconsciously, ppl are on the lookout for something to criticize when watching the show. It's too bad... begin one of the "bashers" myself, I fear I might get subconsciously influenced as well...


Originally posted by daedalus222
I went to this thread specifically to see what you had to say and while I am always amazed at the near illogical "this ep rocked" statements from some of the posters--with no elaboration as to why or how (ESPECIALLY) in the face of such obviously poor writing and animation---this ep seemed to bring out harsh criticism from even the most extreme fanboys on this forum.
Hey give those guys a break alright. Nobody is forced to ramble on 2 pages about why they liked/disliked an episode. Besides having read their posts myself, I think all the good points have been stated (the HG/GL interaction, Superman's braver behavior...)


Originally posted by daedalus222
My real question is when is Jim harvey or someone going to conduct an interview with Timm --that pointedly addresses some of the complaints (and please not the white wash like we get with the 'news' stories that pick best lines from all of the posts regarding the ep--rather than a true pro/ con listing.
Give Jim a break too. Don't you think you could display a little bit of gratitude? This is one of the most elaborate news pages animationwise (if not THE most elaborate page). Besides he's been able to provide us with the coolest info on JL ever since the show started, that is to say some of the most exclusive info thanks to his knowing BT. Shouldn't you say "thanks" instead of blaming him (and the rest of the crew behind the news page) for unfair reasons?

I say "unfair", because to me, the comments posted on the news page perfectly represent the overall feedback.

[The Green Hornet]

honestly had Superman schooled Mongul instead of Dragaa, i probably would have given the episode four stars instead of the 2 i did give it

and im fairly convinced that superman's line "ive dealt with guys like this before" IS a Legacy reference (to when he handed Darkseid his butt)


part of the reason ive become so critical of the show is because to me this show should be a labor of love-- the writers should strive to write the best stories possible and honestly it seems to me right now that the first season seems rushed

i have TOTAL faith that Season 2 is going to feature better quality voice acting-- after all the cast will have 1 season under their belt

better animation-- they'll have some stuff to reuse and touch up and it will probably get better-- early eps to later eps of Batman anyone?

better writing-- i think that without feeling so pressured and having some time to work on them, the stories (plot, dialogue etc) will GREATLY improve (ESP when Darkseid returns)

I think JL's biggest problem is living up to expectations. STAS had four of the greatest animated stories ever done IMHO (Apokalips NOW and Legacy) and after seeing Legacy ESPECIALLY i expected JL to just BLOW ME AWAY with action, superpowers and great dialogue

so to those of you working on JL i am sorry about being so critical and i look forward to your work on season 2

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by daedalus222
My real question is when is Jim harvey or someone going to conduct an interview with Timm --that pointedly addresses some of the complaints (and please not the white wash like we get with the 'news' stories that pick best lines from all of the posts regarding the ep--rather than a true pro/ con listing.

Have you checked out the "talkback" news post for this ep? It carries some pretty harsh criticism in it -- including that reaction of Ace's that you praised so much.

As for the interview thing: Well, it takes two to conduct an interview. Jim (or any reporter) can lob whatever questions he wants, but there's no interview if Timm doesn't answer back. So, basically what you're asking is: "When is Timm going to confess that the sbow sucks?" To which I'm sure the answer is, "Never." And not because Timm is egotistical or anything, but because CN would never forgive him for bad-mouthing his own show.

(Sigh. Sometimes it's not only JL that lacks a sense of reality.)

[mbaker]

Good Point. Hawkgirl is suppose to be a detective, and GL starts to notice more clues than she dose. Since you bring that up, I'd like to see Hawkgirl work with Batman sometime. Their both detectives, and it would be neat to see who out dose who in solving a case that requires brain power. Than once they have things figured out, they can start kicking booty.

[Terminatah]

Have you guys realized nearly every post in this thread says exactly the same thing? I know there are some long posts, but do try to read them before you post your own thoughts. There's nothing more irritating than reading page after page of rehashed comments.


Originally posted by SLIPKNOT
That was total crap with the cannon. Why isn't Hawkgirl the leader since that mase is so powerful? I hated the ending too. Superman should have taken that jobber without breaking a sweat Most of you are complaining because her mace "stopped the blast that was going to destroy a planet." She didn't deflect a death ray, she broke the cannon.


Originally posted by SirLemming
Some random, slightly amusing observations:

Jean Jones's voice actor is definitely strange. His half-hearted "No!" really cracks me up. His chant for Superman was pretty weird too.
I thought it was funny how Green Lantern just finished saying that they couldn't go off in space because his ring might run out of power... and then 2 seconds later he used it to pointlessly float from one section of ground to a slightly higher section of ground. There's a difference between flying up to higher ground and scouring galaxies for a planet that can support human life, know what I mean?


Originally posted by FLIPMODE
- I liked HG and GL. It really saved the show from TOTAL, stupidity.Their childish bickering was forced and out of character. Hawkgirl actually started to imply that Green Lantern isn't a real hero "just because he has a power ring." Hold it right there, sweetheart. Are we 6 years old now?


Originally posted by Mr. Unspeakable
Why is all knock-out gas in the universe yellow? Why am I left with questions that should have been answered in the show?I think everyone here is nitpicking over some very unimportant details.


Originally posted by Livewire
And I agree with you, Bud n' Lou. MM's "He's a SUPERMAN" line made me embarrassed and I didn't even write it. He IS a superman. What do you want him to say? He's starting a crowd chant, he's not exactly writing a novel.


Originally posted by daedalus222
My real question is when is Jim harvey or someone going to conduct an interview with Timm --that pointedly addresses some of the complaints (and please not the white wash like we get with the 'news' stories that pick best lines from all of the posts regarding the ep--rather than a true pro/ con listing.If I was going to interview Bruce Timm, I'd rather highlight the good he's done, not point out flaws detected by a league of nitpickers with such lofty expectations. That's not to say certain problems shouldn't be addressed, but let's not go overboard, people. I don't mean to be offensive; I myself used to overcriticize Simpsons episodes when they came out, only to realize the episodes I was panning were actually pretty good (except for now, now The Simpsons sucks).


Originally posted by Hal Jordan
Well, this is a waste of a post, because its just a serious echo of everyone else --- but I too just sat there as the ending titles appeared and yelled, "THATS IT?!"

Lets just have all JL members sit around and watch a fighting match on pay-per-view....the ending killed this one. Superman NOT beating the crap out of Mongul was a BADDDDD writing mistake. How could you NOT see that this would be a supreme LETDOWN?

Baffles the mind. What you're proposing is presenting some mindless violence instead of closure for Draaga. If Draaga hadn't finished the fight, he would've been a loose end. Yes, it's cool to see Superman exact revenge on the occasional mighty villain, but he would be the first to tell you it doesn't always work out that way. The Justice League isn't in it for battlefield glory. Let Draaga have his victory, that's what I say.

-Terminatah

[Failure]

So what exactly is overanlyzing? In my mind, overanalysis is when you have to actively think about a topic to pick something out. I agree that some of the nitpicking is a bit of overanalysis, but Hawkgirl's deflection of the death ray? That was clear and bright as day. As soon as she did that, my reaction was "what? She just deflected a death ray that could obliterate a planet with her mace?" 100% reaction, no thinking involved.

[Kal-el]

Originally posted by Terminatah
What you're proposing is presenting some mindless violence instead of closure for Draaga. If Draaga hadn't finished the fight, he would've been a loose end. Yes, it's cool to see Superman exact revenge on the occasional mighty villain, but he would be the first to tell you it doesn't always work out that way. The Justice League isn't in it for battlefield glory. Let Draaga have his victory, that's what I say.
-Terminatah
Terminatah, you echoed the thoughts of an earlier post of mine nicely with this point. Draaga had a reason to exact revenge against Mongul, much more than Superman did. It is not Superman's way to go around getting revenge on everyone that imprisons him or smacks him around.
After a few pages, it gets very hard to bring out points that haven't been already covered. Reading the other posts and expounding on something said may be a more useful discussion tool than repeating what was said a few posts before.
...oh wait...in essence I just did that. crap.

[Blade1225]

Quote:
--------------------------
He's vulnerable to fire, correct? Maybe he is also vulnerable to the parts that cause fire. So maybe...maybe the planet was REALLY rich in oxygen or something else. Right? Right?
--------------------------

Oh well....i guess he can't go into forests...forget about going to stores that sell wooden beds, tables, chairs....looks like he won't be visiting historical places that are made of wood....i guess he can't drive an oil truck either...................

[Manhunter]

Am i the only one who saw a sort of connection between Mongul and Vince McMahon?

[Frank White]

Am I the only one who thinks that it would be impossible for Mongul to kill Superman? I mean literally. Mongul could pound away all day but I don't think he could kill Superman. Anyway another thing that I liked was when Mongul asked him about his homeplanet Superman said Krypton. Which I think was smart because I thought he would mention Earth.

[JohnStewart-GL]

that was cool. It was funny the Draaga made Supes bleed but Mongul couldn't.

[JLU Dude]

I thought WarWorld Part 2 was cool. I like how Dragga beat the crud outta Mongul.

[Spider]

Originally posted by Frank White
Am I the only one who thinks that it would be impossible for Mongul to kill Superman? I mean literally. Mongul could pound away all day but I don't think he could kill Superman. Anyway another thing that I liked was when Mongul asked him about his homeplanet Superman said Krypton. Which I think was smart because I thought he would mention Earth.

Frank,

I did as well. When he didn't mention Earth, I flinched. I should have realized this, but didn't. :)

[Borg4of3]

:D And we have a new record! Only 4 pages of nitpicking - and it seems the people who liked the episode are starting to pop up! Anti-nitpickers are cool! Yay Terminatah!

Oh, and just because this has been making me angry for some reason that I can't explain: I want to state that I posted the first 'Draaga deserved it' post! Sry, call me envious and proud, but I had to get that out. :p

Oh and to Daeduluss who said, "I went to this thread specifically to see what you had to say and while I am always amazed at the near illogical "this ep rocked" statements from some of the posters--" have you noticed there are a million more near illogical and ignorant "this ep sucked" statements? :rolleyes:

And writers' jobs are generally to tell a good story, not to placate fanboys who want "vs matches" all over the place. This story was just as much Draaga's and the populace of WarWorld as it was the JLs - as was The Enemy Below for Aquaman.

[The Guard]

And I agree with you, Bud n' Lou. MM's "He's a SUPERMAN" line made me embarrassed and I didn't even write it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He IS a superman. What do you want him to say? He's starting a crowd chant, he's not exactly writing a novel.

That line was LAME. There's no way around it. It SOUNDED terrible.

[TheScarecrow]

Did it make sense storyline wise that Draaga got his payback on Mongul? Maybe. But the thing is...

I didn't care about seeing Draaga beating up Mongul, no matter what Mongul did to him. In my opinion, Superman should've did the final blows because it was HIM that was trying to save Draaga's planet by letting Mongul kill him.

Besides, I think Bruce W. Timm and the writers blew a good opportunity to add a new compelling villain for season two. Think about this ending...

Superman beats the crap out of Mongul, and Draaga shows up too little too late. Sups tries to hand Mongul's crown over to Draaga like before, but Draaga, who's upset that Sups defeated him in War World (and thus took away his pride and forced him to brand Sups S shild on his chest), and that he also took his away his chance to get payback on Mongul, swears revenge on Superman and yells to him as he and the rest of the JL are leaving that he won't rest until he's dead. Sups flys away dejected that the man whos planet he risked his life for is now one of his enemies.

That would've been a MUCH BETTER way to end he show then what we got, imo.

And to Borg4of3, this wasn't like Enemy Below because that ep focused on Aquaman, where as War World was *supposed* to be Superman's spotlighted episode.

[JohnStewart-GL]

Do you Guys think Mongul will return in season two.

[JTurner954]

I had no trouble with Drega (sp) beating up Mongul. In fact, it was refreshing to see someone other than the superheroes fighting against evil.

Do I think Mongul will return in Season 2?? Sure, why not?? In fact, I recall in the comic books that the Green Lantern after Hal Jordan (Kyle, was it?), faced Mongul shortly aftyer getting the ring. Isn't there something about GL not being able to go against yellow or something?? Maybe Mongul can go after Lantern (I don't know the new guy's name) since he interrupted his fight with Superman.

[metaphysician]

I'd say that the very end was weak, but that the episode overall wasn't bad.

Worst actual ending, moreso than In Blackest Night, actually, but some interesting interaction beforehand.

[The Green Hornet]

i think the reason that Superman mentioned Krypton is because he'd been called "Kryptonian" for most of his stay on War World and because he didnt want to let Mongul threaten Earth

[the green flashlight]

My biggest gripe was that they ended the episode without Draaga being mad at Superman. They wasted to opportunity for an awesome villian.

I liked the premise of the whole thing. The first half was decent. I think that in the second half, when Superman refused to kill Draaga that it should have been Mongul that dumped Draaga on that garbage world. It should have been Mongul that branded Draaga also, telling him that as punishment for his failure to kill Superman he would be exiled in shame. Mongul would know that this would be the greatest torture for Draaga.

Next thing, after Draaga is outcast. Superman should be forced to continue fighting in matches with Mongul using Draaga's planet as the reason. Draaga should trick GL and HG into bringing him back saying that he can help Superman defeat Mongul. When the Mongul match finally comes, Superman is losing to Mongul. When Draaga shows up and defeats Mongul, Superman stops Draaga from killing Mongul. Mongul then should destroy Draaga's planet as a last act of spite as he knows he is defeated. Draaga then would hate Superman for not letting him kill Mongul. Superman would see that sometimes there is a need to not be merciful. This would also lead to Superman displaying more power in the next episodes because he regrets his weakness in letting Mongul live to destroy Draaga's planet.

[Borg4of3]

Originally posted by TheScarecrow
And to Borg4of3, this wasn't like Enemy Below because that ep focused on Aquaman, where as War World was *supposed* to be Superman's spotlighted episode.

An entire planet cheering Superman's name, extolling his virtue and courage, and admiring his strength; Superman smiling as he "made it convincing", making Mongul stagger not once but twice turning what we thought would be a Darkseid clone into a ragdoll; Showcase on Superman's intellect at mentioning Krypton instead of Earth; Superman showing how true a hero he is by being willing to sacrifice himself for another planet; and of course, "It wasn't your name they were shouting out there - it was mine,"

Believe me, this was a Superman spotlight episode. It just wasn't fitting for him to beat the crap out of Mongul when Draaga and the people suffered far more than he had. Like how Superman let the Apokolips people decide the fate of Darkseid. Not only was it better storywise, but just plain characteristic of Superman.

Edit: Thinking on it tho, it would have been possible for a Brave New Metropolis type of ending...

Edit: Actually, ignore that - In BNM, Superman was just as betrayed as any of the citizens, so he deserved that ending. Draaga deserved this one as well.

[Gyro]

Overall, I give this episode a big "eh."

[Memphis Bleek]

I loved this episode. The sexual tension between Hawkgirl and Gl was done well. Supes letting Draaga lives wasn't a surprise. The quasi fight between Mongul and Supes was good. Mongul planning to destroy Draaga's home planet even though Supes going to lose to him made me despise Mongul even more. Gl made a a round shield and circle. That brings the total number of GL constructs to four: bubbles, lasers, barriers, and round shield. Draaga beating the crap of Mongul and becoming the new leader of the planet was cool. The diagolue seems to be getting better with each episode. Justice League is hitting it stride.

[neilf]

This ep left me a bit cold. I'm willing to overlook certain things. But Hawkgirl turning back the blast with her mace? Give me a break! GL using his ring... yes. Hawkgirl blocking the planet killing blast with her mace... LUDICROUS. Part 1 showed promise and part 2 had some good points but was almost overshadowed by it's weak dialogue. Why can't these guys get the dialogue down? Is it so hard to go from a single character show like STAS or BTAS to a group show. You still had multiple people conversing in the other series - just not all heroes. Tim Daly may never come back (by the way he's doing the voice work for the new PS2 Superman game) to portray Superman but they need to find a better actor than George Newburn. His acting is poor. It's not his voice - it's his acting. He has no range and just can't carry Superman's noble but strong character off. I could even buy the ending of not having Superman kick butt because giving it to Draaga was a decent twist. But he just never carries himself the proper way throughout the rest of the eps. to make me buy that he's Super man (pun intended). It's not just the scenes they write for him but also his delivery of his lines that makes him seem wimpy.