"Battlestar Galactica" Season Four Talkback (Spoilers)

[Swordfish_II]

http://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/sc-fi.jpghttp://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/bsg.jpg
The fourth and final season of Battlestar starts in a few minutes! Tonights ep is "He That Believeth in Me".

[Wounded_Dragon]

It's amazing how I've managed to go over the course of the series from liking Roslin to hating her guts.

[Hanshotfirst113]

I haven't seen a single episode. I think that I'll wait until this season ends and comes out on DVD, and then just binge the whole series.

[Wounded_Dragon]

I haven't seen a single episode. I think that I'll wait until this season ends and comes out on DVD, and then just binge the whole series.

Meh, SCIFI dvd pricing for BSG has kept me away from buying the sets, particulary since they split season 2 up for some reason.

[GWOtaku]

So, Starbuck is crazy now. Yes Starbuck, Adama will take the fleet where you think it should go and believe you're not a Cylon if you kill the President of the colonies.

I can understand Adama, but why the heck is everyone willing to listen to what Lee has to say? Remember this guy, people? Lee Adama? The guy who got Gaius Baltar off the hook? If they end up listening to Starbuck because Lee convinces them, I'll be very annoyed.

And of course, Baltar gets to be surrounded by what are basically cultist believers, most of which are apparently all too willing to sleep with him. I know we're supposed to hate him but I'm just sick of Baltar, and sick of how his situation is always the same whatever his position is. I just hope the satisfaction of his death will come by the time its all over.

I've been shown all of BSG in a close span of time since late last year. Season 4 is the moment of truth. Either the weirdness and meandering of season 3 will have a purpose and a point and we will indeed see that the Cylons "have a plan," or the series falls flat. Hopefully the writers know what they're doing and don't let this become sci-fi's version of Lost, because the first two seasons were just excellent.

[Wounded_Dragon]

I can understand Adama, but why the heck is everyone willing to listen to what Lee has to say? Remember this guy, people? Lee Adama? The guy who got Gaius Baltar off the hook?

Maybe because Lee was right? Frankly, Roslin's coming off as more evil than Baltar now. Seriously, blaming New Caprica solely on him was kind of hypocritical, particularly after the wave of pardons. And even her desire to kill him for the 12 colonies was him being used, not a deliberate choice.

[GWOtaku]

The thing is there were people that really did want Baltar to die, and the fact that Roslin's cancer was back was outed as a result of the trial. It feels really weird for folks like Roslin to stand around calmly hearing out Lee considering what had just very recently happened.

[Swordfish_II]

Tonight's episode: "Six of One"

[DBZALLSTAR]

So far, I'm enjoying season four. I watched my recording of the season premiere yesterday (I had to finish watching season three on DVD. :D ), and I enjoyed that, as well. I like how they've been handling the reveals from the season three finale, and I look forward to seeing how they develop.

I'm curious to see what the Centurions will be like now that they are able to think for themselves. It doesn't look like it will turn out well, if the preview for next week is any indication.

I'm have to say that I am glad that I purchased the two season two sets back in June. I'm also glad that I decided to sit in on the Battlestar Galactica panel at Comic Con 07 after having waited six hours to get into the Heroes panel, only to get let down by the dolts who forgot to empty the room after each panel on just that one day. (Sorry for the short rant. That was a very long day, and it added to my belief that Comic Con is overrated.) That panel encouraged me to pick up Razor, and I was finally able to start watching the series proper and Razor when I picked up season one in the winter. I am in love with this series and regret having come into it near the end. At the very least, I can hope that this last season will be the best.:D

[Anyone00]

"The Cylons may attack at any moment; let's get soused!"

[Wounded_Dragon]

Those killed Cylons don't even realize how much they're becoming like the 'human masters' they so despised, do they?

Did Jamie Barber and Katee Sackhoff ask for time off this season? These send-offs seem like a way to get rid of their characters for long periods of time.

[Swordfish_II]

I'm glad things are finally moving along. I bet giving the Centurions free will is gonna bite the others in the butt.

Tonights ep: "The Ties That Bind"

[Wounded_Dragon]

The Starbuck arc is slowly developing. Hope it gets to go somewhere.

I'm glad that they didn't just forget that Roslin would probably hate Apollo's guts, despite him being right. Secret courts? Roslin's dangerously balanced, and no, I got the word order I want there.

Someone needs to ask the writers if Tori really ejected Callie, or if that was part of Callie's delusions. Honestly, I don't know what to feel regarding Callie's demise. She's always been a harpy and a "redshirt" type, so I'm kind of surprised she's lasted so long. She hasn't exactly been the most sympathetic character either.

[DBZALLSTAR]

I'm glad things are finally moving along. I bet giving the Centurions free will is gonna bite the others in the butt.

Tonights ep: "The Ties That Bind"

Holy frack!
Somehow I knew that Tory was going to turn on Galactica. It's a shame that Cally had to pay for her knowledge with her life. I knew as soon as I saw the trailer for this week's episode that Cally was going to die, but I didn't expect it to be so soon. I knew that if one of the Cylons aboard Galactica was going to kill her it would be Tory. I hope that Tory gets what's coming to her.:evil:

I did not, however, expect the Sixes and Eights to meet their ends at the hands of their fellow Cylon "skin jobs". The trailer led us to believe that the Centurions would take control of their destinies by killing them. I wasn't expecting any of the models to be completely destroyed until the season came to a close. At least Number Three will return later this season.

So many betrayals this season.:D

That said, I am absolutely loving this new season and cannot wait until next Friday!:D

[Paul_Cousins]

Holy frack!
Somehow I knew that Tory was going to turn on Galactica. It's a shame that Cally had to pay for her knowledge with her life. I knew as soon as I saw the trailer for this week's episode that Cally was going to die, but I didn't expect it to be so soon. I knew that if one of the Cylons aboard Galactica was going to kill her it would be Tory. I hope that Tory gets what's coming to her.:evil:

I did not, however, expect the Sixes and Eights to meet their ends at the hands of their fellow Cylon "skin jobs". The trailer led us to believe that the Centurions would take control of their destinies by killing them. I wasn't expecting any of the models to be completely destroyed until the season came to a close. At least Number Three will return later this season.

So many betrayals this season.:D

That said, I am absolutely loving this new season and cannot wait until next Friday!:DYes is was a surprising episode.

Tyrol is probably going to kill or get revenge in some way shape or form on Tory for murdering his wife. Even if not death, considering their cylons and may not dead, it will probably be painful and imginative.

[GWOtaku]

Tory's been turned into a first rate ***** and needs to die brutally, but of course won't since she's one of the final five. Sigh.

[Rook]

Cally runs to the hangar instead to the admiral. And somehow Tory knows exactly where she is. I guess the baby, being part cylon, acts as a homing device as well.

Anyone a little weirded out by how the females are more dangerous than the male cylons?

[Wounded_Dragon]

Remember, Callie hates Cylons so much she shot Boomer way back then. Off her rocker like she was, I find Callie wanting to jettison the child more likely than running to the admiral.

[Swordfish_II]

Baltar plays Cylon preacher in "Escape Velocity" tonight.

[Anyone00]

Gnostics... In... Spaaaaaaace!

[Wounded_Dragon]

And the Six "in his head" managed to lift him to his feet. I'm impressed.

[Ed Liu]

If there's anything I like about this season of BSG, it's that I feel like it's got that same sense of fearlessness that it had for all of S1 and the first half or so of S2. After that, it seemed like it was trying to balance between stretching things out so they could keep the meal ticket going (come on, how many times could they hit the Giant Reset Button at the start of a season?) and moving the plot forwards, with the former winning out in the end. Now that there's a distinct end in sight, they're not as afraid to do the crazy things that attracted me to the series in the first place, like blow Callie out an airlock.

So, my wife and I started thinking about who the final Cylon is. Mostly, it's getting a bit easier to identify who it isn't. The candidates we've ruled out:

- Callie: She had a baby with Tyrol. It would seem to be a major rewrite to say that Cylons could reproduce sexually.

- Helo: Same as Callie -- he's already had a child with Boomer.

- Admiral Adama and Apollo: Mostly because it's been so firmly established that they're father and son, meaning you can't make one a Cylon without having to deal with the other somehow, and with the dead brother Zack.

- Starbuck: She's gets ruled out for largely the same reasons as Callie. Despite the weird seeming resurrection that kicked off the season, it doesn't make sense for Anders to hook up with her OR for the Cylons to engage in those weird experiments on her. It's still remotely possible, since there is that unexplained resurrection and the idea that the Cylons themselves don't know who the final 5 are.

- Baltar: Why would the Cylons bother to use him to get the codes to the Colonial network if they could just flip him on and make him do it for them? If that was part of the Cylon's much-foretold "plan," then I have to say that it's a really, really crappy plan.

So who's left? Of the major players, I think we're down to President Roslin and Tom Zarek. Maybe Mr. Gaeta or Dualla, but they don't seem like major enough players to really give the big final reveal the punch it needs. I'm pretty much assuming it isn't going to be someone like Doc Cottle, Hot Dog, or another pilot. Everyone else is either ruled out or already revealed to be a Cylon. The only other possibility is that it's not someone we've seen yet at all.

So, who'd I miss or why am I ruling someone out incorrectly?

-- Ed

[DarkAngel]

- Baltar: Why would the Cylons bother to use him to get the codes to the Colonial network if they could just flip him on and make him do it for them? If that was part of the Cylon's much-foretold "plan," then I have to say that it's a really, really crappy plan.
As your were saying with Starbuck, there is the fact that the 7 don't know who the other 5 are. So they wouldn't know or be able to just flip Baltar on. As with Kara, maybe a remote possibility.


Of the major players, I think we're down to President Roslin and Tom Zarek.
Zarek's a strong possibility. And he has been underused.


So, who'd I miss or why am I ruling someone out incorrectly?
Any thoughts on whether D'Anna's words when she saw the 5 could possibly offer a clue? With one of them, there seemed to be some greater sense of recognition. I can't remember what she said. I think I remember "I'm sorry." We don't know for sure that was the 5th, but it could have been. Any relevant interactions she's had over the last few seasons with any of our potential candidates?

[James]

Interestingly, the UK is playing this season in tandem with the US, so I've had a quick glance through what has been said so far, fearing some idiot releasing some major spoiler. I don't want to know who the final cylon is, so you won't be seeing me in here too often.

Well, for me, Battlestar Galactica has been a pretty consistent throughout, and I've enjoyed each season for different reasons. The question of who the final cylon is was an inspired way of carrying a very tense, claustrophic series into a forth season. Not many shows make a third season, particularly those that are dark, complex and built on mystery. To keep mystery present by season four, well, it's a rare scenario. If only the networks had allowed Twin Peaks to do what it did best, maybe we'd have seen a longer show too.

Yes, I'm enjoying series four so far. It's far darker than season three (which is pretty hard). I think by pulling away from the Cylon basestars somewhat has helped focus the series, as has the focus on the final five, AND the usual no holds killing of major characters.

A lot to through into twenty odd episodes, resolution of the final five and the closure of the show - I think that will keep Galactica running this rollercoaster so it goes out with a bang.

Certainly the series has had some comparably unsatisfying moments, but given the standard of TV even the lulls have been highs. Good show and with its final gimmick I think its going to still throw some shocks our way. Here's to those shocks.

[GWOtaku]

So, who'd I miss or why am I ruling someone out incorrectly?

-- Ed

I don't think Starbuck can be ruled out because Sharon was pregnant with Helo's child at one point. We also don't know just how different the final five are from the other Cylons, and her resurrection in spite of her ship blowing up is too strange. Not to mention these supposed visions she's been having...

[Ed Liu]

I don't think Starbuck can be ruled out because Sharon was pregnant with Helo's child at one point. We also don't know just how different the final five are from the other Cylons, and her resurrection in spite of her ship blowing up is too strange. Not to mention these supposed visions she's been having...

Mostly, I was working off the unstated rule that any pairing on the show has been human-human or human-Cylon, meaning that a Starbuck-Anders pairing would be between 2 Cylons. However, it dawns on me now that the Chief and Boomer were having a torrid affair at the start of the show, and we've since discovered that both are really Cylons. So, since the major reason why she was ruled out just got kicked out from under me, I think that means Starbuck is fully back in play a candidate for the last of the final 5 (and, IMO, a much more likely candidate than Baltar).

I still think human-human and human-Cylon is the only way to produce a child, though.

-- Ed

[Ragebot]

For the final Cylon to be anyone who was on the Galactica during the ending of "Crossroads: Part 2" would be a bit of a narrative cheat, IMO. Unless, of course, that he or she was fully aware of his or her true nature before the fleet jumped into the nebula.

Personally, and this is my legit guess, I think it's Dr. Cottle.

[Swordfish_II]

Tonights ep is called "The Road Less Traveled" in which the Cylons will probably do something cryptic and everyone else will be all grumpy.

[Rook]

the chronicles of Baltar: from perpetrator to professor to president to prisoner to prophet...sigh. Why does this guy have free reign on a military ship? hell why the heck to the rest of his harem do?

Ack he got the chief.

Its funny how Boomer of all ppl wanted a mutiny. Laugh riot. Guess having a baby makes you immune to bias.

[Wounded_Dragon]

It's a refugee fleet, don't forget. They are on very limited space. Whatever spare space that doesn't contain essential or classified material is likely to be fair game.

[wonderfly]

This show has drifted so far from it's classic early episodes, it's laughable...

I wonder if they really knew who the "Final 5" were from the beginning of the show? I mean, I can't go back and watch the early episodes now, with Tyrol and Boomer having an affair, without thinking, "So wait...both of these people were Cylons?!? Doesn't that kinda ruin the tragic love affair of the 1st season?!?"

Every "shocking new plot twist" that we see with each new episode makes me go back and look at the old episodes with despair...

But yeah, I'm still watching the last season, and still want to see this season go out on a bang.

[Nightflower]

This show has drifted so far from it's classic early episodes, it's laughable...

I wonder if they really knew who the "Final 5" were from the beginning of the show? I mean, I can't go back and watch the early episodes now, with Tyrol and Boomer having an affair, without thinking, "So wait...both of these people were Cylons?!? Doesn't that kinda ruin the tragic love affair of the 1st season?!?"

Every "shocking new plot twist" that we see with each new episode makes me go back and look at the old episodes with despair...

But yeah, I'm still watching the last season, and still want to see this season go out on a bang.

No, I read in an interview that Ron Moore doesn't really have an overarching plan for the series like JMS and Babylon 5. I think he said he had some ideas, but if he comes up with ones that he likes better along the way (Say, making Tigh, Tyrol, Anders and Tori into cylons) he'll throw out his original plan and do that instead.

And yeah, I revisited the first season... I do like Ron Moore but I don't like how he introduces and throws away plotlines at breakneck speed.

[Ed Liu]

And yeah, I revisited the first season... I do like Ron Moore but I don't like how he introduces and throws away plotlines at breakneck speed.

I actually don't mind that so much. What I mind is that the entire show was premised on the idea that the Cylons "have a plan," but Ron Moore and the writing staff didn't seem to have any idea what it was and have been making up that plan as they went along. That's fine to create the humans' storyline, but not for the Cylons. They're machines. Thinking ahead like life is a gigantic chess game is what they're supposed to do.

And yes, the whole bit with Tyrol being a Cylon makes the whole Tyrol/Boomer romance really really weird, but it's also why we now can't rule out the idea that Starbuck is the final Cylon of the 12.

-- Ed

[Swordfish_II]

Forgot about last week. Are people still watching?

Another new ep tonight: "Guess What's Coming to Dinner?"

[Wounded_Dragon]

Why has Roslin become such a controlling tyrant? Every time I start to like her again she does something to make me want to smack her.

[mr.happy]

This show has drifted so far from it's classic early episodes, it's laughable...And sad.


I wonder if they really knew who the "Final 5" were from the beginning of the show?No, they just made that up later, when they ran out of ideas for most of the characters, and couldn't just keep killing them off.


I mean, I can't go back and watch the early episodes now, with Tyrol and Boomer having an affair, without thinking, "So wait...both of these people were Cylons?!? Doesn't that kinda ruin the tragic love affair of the 1st season?!?"I try not to think about how much the last 2 seasons retroactively ruined what was a great first couple of seasons.


I actually don't mind that so much. What I mind is that the entire show was premised on the idea that the Cylons "have a plan," but Ron Moore and the writing staff didn't seem to have any idea what it was and have been making up that plan as they went along.Hilariously, the "they have a plan" bit has also been removed from the opening sequence now. At least they're honest. Actually, honest would probably have meant changing it to "ok, they didn't really have a plan, but at least it will all be over soon" :)

[Wounded_Dragon]

I've been rewatching season 1 recently....everyone just looks so *innocent* compared to where they are now. Now, that does lend to story progression, but it's almost painful to see the difference in some characters. Personally, I think Roslin's fallen the most. She's just so dictatorial now. Tyrol's gained weight and disillusionment.

It's like everything, people and machines, are wearing down.

[DarkAngel]

No, they just made that up later, when they ran out of ideas for most of the characters, and couldn't just keep killing them off.
No, they just built steadily on what they'd set up initially giving us a lot of great and exciting material. :)


I try not to think about how much the last 2 seasons retroactively ruined what was a great first couple of seasons.
The great thing is, you don't have to, since that never happened. You can instead focus on the reality of how great the last two seasons have been and the show as a whole. ;)


Hilariously, the "they have a plan" bit has also been removed from the opening sequence now. At least they're honest. Actually, honest would probably have meant changing it to "ok, they didn't really have a plan, but at least it will all be over soon" :)
More like the cylons had a plan, but have now reached a point where they want/believe different things and can't reach a compromise.

[mr.happy]

No, they just built steadily on what they'd set up initially giving us a lot of great and exciting material. :) Come on? You can't seriously believe the final five thing was planned all along? Moore has been pretty open about how he just likes to add new concepts and ideas, for no better reason than because he likes them. Remember the infamous "you asked why" scene, which he admitted he didn't even understand, but just thought it was "cool". That was when I first started getting really worried about the show.


The great thing is, you don't have to, since that never happened. You can instead focus on the reality of how great the last two seasons have been and the show as a whole. ;) I'm not sure one smiley is enough to convey how facetious that statement must surely have been. I've seen very little of this season, but season 3 was a train wreck from beginning to end. It scored some of the worst user and television ratings ever seen for the show, and most certainly caused the premature end of what Moore had previously claimed he envisioned as at least a 5 year arc. Remember when he and the cast ran around for a few days pretending they hadn't been cancelled?


More like the cylons had a plan, but have now reached a point where they want/believe different things and can't reach a compromise.What was the plan? Kill the humans? That's not much of a plan, is it? Clearly the "plan" was crucial to the basic premise of the show, but it just fizzled into complete nothingness. "They have a plan" was to BSG what "Save the cheerleader" was to Heroes, and it went absolutely nowhere. Not that Heroes' execution was a stroke of genius, but the less said about that the better, I think.

[Noukon]

And yes, the whole bit with Tyrol being a Cylon makes the whole Tyrol/Boomer romance really really weird, but it's also why we now can't rule out the idea that Starbuck is the final Cylon of the 12.

Rewatching the whole series recently, I noticed episode 2x04 actually had what could be some serious foreshadowing to Tyrol being a Cylon. Tyrol's character tension is honestly a little more interesting in the second season given that he's a Cylon, and I have a feeling it plays heavily into his attraction to the temple on the algae planet in season 3.

[Hanshotfirst113]

Nokun! You have returned! You've been a while! Welcome back!

[Ragebot]

I'm not sure one smiley is enough to convey how facetious that statement must surely have been. I've seen very little of this season, but season 3 was a train wreck from beginning to end.

Well, I don't think even the biggest detractors of the third season would argue that "Occupation/Precipice", "Exodus, Part II", "Maelstrom", and "Crossroads, Part II" constituted as part of the "train wreck" you mentioned. They were brilliant episodes that are on par with the best episodes of the first two seasons. If you did have problems with those, then I'd argue that your criticisms are inherent to the basic themes of the series starting from the Miniseries.


What was the plan? Kill the humans? That's not much of a plan, is it? Clearly the "plan" was crucial to the basic premise of the show, but it just fizzled into complete nothingness.

It was succinctly revealed in "The Farm" that their plan was to conceive a Human-Cylon child. The plan changed in "Downloaded" when the two war heroes instituted their ideological reforms. And now, following the events in "Six of One" they have gone in two separate directions. The point is that all of the various factions of the Cylons (Cavil/Simon/Doral, the rebels, the Final Four, the Centurions, the threes, and the one unrevealed) have their own agendas that the Colonials know nothing about. You might argue that that interpretation doesn't gel with the opening text in the pre-cap, but I don't think it's a cheat. I'd rather be superficially mislead in the teaser then have the Cylons unilaterally follow a specific "plan".

[mr.happy]

Well, I don't think even the biggest detractors of the third season would argue that "Occupation/Precipice", "Exodus, Part II", "Maelstrom", and "Crossroads, Part II" constituted as part of the "train wreck" you mentioned.I can think of very little from season 3 that wasn't part of the train wreck. Occupation/Precipice was symptomatic of how up his own you-know-what Moore had disappeared with his embarrassingly heavy-handed Iraq analogies and self-satisfied attempts at social relevance, but no amount of silly wigs, fake moustaches and comical fat suits could make up for the complete collapse of almost everything that once made the show great.


It was succinctly revealed in "The Farm" that their plan was to conceive a Human-Cylon child.That was no more The Plan than the initial attack was. Sure, both were plans, but it was strongly implied throughout the first two seasons that the Cylons knew a lot more about what was going on - and why - than the humans did. The "They Have a Plan" part of the teaser was obviously meant to support this, and leave us wondering what The Plan was, much like we're now supposed to wonder who "One Remains" refers to. It was never made clear to the viewers after "The Farm" that this was indeed all there was to The Plan, and that part of the teaser remained until this season, by which point there was no longer any point in pretending that the Cylons, or indeed the writers, ever had much of a plan to begin with.


You might argue that that interpretation doesn't gel with the opening text in the pre-cap, but I don't think it's a cheat.If you'd ever listened to Ron Moore's comments and podcasts, you'd know it was a cheat.


I'd rather be superficially mislead in the teaser then have the Cylons unilaterally follow a specific "plan".Then I'd argue that it is you who have inherent problems with the basic themes of the series starting from the Miniseries, where the premise of the show was established, and where we were obviously sold on the idea of said Plan. You may still like BSG, and good for you, but you can't seriously pretend it's anything like what it started out as?

To me, being a BSG viewer has become a bit like being in an abusive relationship. Sure, the sex was great in the beginning, and you can tell yourself that the show still loves you, but the bruises tell a different story. ;)

[DarkAngel]

Come on? You can't seriously believe the final five thing was planned all along?
I didn't say anything about everything being planned from the beginning. I said they steadily built on what they'd initially started, meaning they've slowly developed/expanded on the initial subject matter. I'm quite aware of what RDM's approach is (not mapping out everything ahead of time to give them freedom to go in another direction if desired down the road) since a similar approach was taken on DS9.


I'm not sure one smiley is enough to convey how facetious that statement must surely have been.
:) Oops. One smiley too many then, since I wasn't being facetious.


It scored some of the worst user and television ratings ever seen for the show, and most certainly caused the premature end of what Moore had previously claimed he envisioned as at least a 5 year arc.
I never made any statement about ratings or the show's popularity. All I'm talking about is my perception of the quality of the show. I think its great, though I've never said (and never will) that its perfect.

Yeah, there were some missteps during S3 (IMO). The episodes of the New Caprica arc were among the best of the series and I think they missed out on opportunities by making it so short. I'm also disappointed that they didn't go with Zarek as President for a longer period and I'm not sure I truly buy into his stated reasons for giving up the position. Otherwise, though, it was a solid season.

And I don't ever recall hearing RDM say the show would for a fact be 5+ years. I do remember, sometime during season 2, that he commented he had about 2 more years worth of stories in mind and that the series could potentially go on that much longer (and that would have been 4 years total which is how things will end up working out). I know in 2005, during an interview, he was specifically asked about his season-by-season approach and how it compared to Babylon 5's "legendary" 5-year arc, and RDM said (as he always has, even during the DS9 years), that he doesn't like to work that way and would rather leave things open. He didn't say anything about having a certain number of seasons in mind.

DA

[Ragebot]

Occupation/Precipice was symptomatic of how up his own you-know-what Moore had disappeared with his embarrassingly heavy-handed Iraq analogies.

It wasn't based on Iraq. It was based on Vichy. It's also a bit of a strawman allegory to equate the Cylons with the US simply because they're both monotheistic. Moore has always said that he takes fragments of current events and shapes them in diffrent ways for his show. Witness "Epiphanies", where he paints the peace advocates as terrorists because the pragmatic reality in the BSG world is different then ours.


It was never made clear to the viewers after "The Farm" that this was indeed all there was to The Plan, and that part of the teaser remained until this season, by which point there was no longer any point in pretending that the Cylons, or indeed the writers, ever had much of a plan to begin with.

It's all pretty semantic, really. And besides, it's always been clear that the Cylons have been players in "God's" plan the same way that Roslin, Baltar and Starbuck are.

And like I said, I don't think you should discount the fact that the Final Five likely have their own seperate agendas.


You may still like BSG, and good for you, but you can't seriously pretend it's anything like what it started out as?


Yes, it has changed. It's taking the character and mythological base of the first season and bringing them to the forefront. I'd argue that if you're looking for the military-centric episodes like "33" or "Pegasus" then you won't find them in this season, but I can live with that.

[mr.happy]

I didn't say anything about everything being planned from the beginning. I said they steadily built on what they'd initially started, meaning they've slowly developed/expanded on the initial subject matter. I'm quite aware of what RDM's approach is (not mapping out everything ahead of time to give them freedom to go in another direction if desired down the road) since a similar approach was taken on DS9.Another show that drowned in its own self-importance.


:) Oops. One smiley too many then, since I wasn't being facetious. I'll take that smiley as evidence that you were. ;)


I never made any statement about ratings or the show's popularity. All I'm talking about is my perception of the quality of the show. I think its great, though I've never said (and never will) that its perfect.I don't mind you thinking it's great, I'm just saying I think it has slipped considerably from its best form, and I'm no longer interested in it.


Yeah, there were some missteps during S3 (IMO). The episodes of the New Caprica arc were among the best of the series and I think they missed out on opportunities by making it so short.I sort of agree. I hated the whole idea of New Caprica, but there were actually a few things that could have worked, if they had at least stuck with it.


And I don't ever recall hearing RDM say the show would for a fact be 5+ years. I do remember, sometime during season 2, that he commented he had about 2 more years worth of stories in mind and that the series could potentially go on that much longer (and that would have been 4 years total which is how things will end up working out). I know in 2005, during an interview, he was specifically asked about his season-by-season approach and how it compared to Babylon 5's "legendary" 5-year arc, and RDM said (as he always has, even during the DS9 years), that he doesn't like to work that way and would rather leave things open. He didn't say anything about having a certain number of seasons in mind.It could have been David Eick. One of those clowns definitely mentioned that they expected the show to run for at least 5 seasons, and that anything beyond that would be guesswork. Regardless of who it was that said it, you must surely agree that if the ratings hadn't slipped so badly, Moore would not have wrapped it up with 4 seasons. Like I mentioned earlier, he was even running around pretending the show hadn't been cancelled, when everyone knew it was a done deal.


It wasn't based on Iraq. It was based on Vichy. It's also a bit of a strawman allegory to equate the Cylons with the US simply because they're both monotheistic. Moore has always said that he takes fragments of current events and shapes them in diffrent ways for his show. Witness "Epiphanies", where he paints the peace advocates as terrorists because the pragmatic reality in the BSG world is different then ours.That just strikes me as more self-satisfied pandering. Clearly his point was about how one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. You could almost hear Moore drooling all over himself with excitement about how fair and balanced he thought he was.


And like I said, I don't think you should discount the fact that the Final Five likely have their own seperate agendas.Well, it's BSG, so we know anything can happen, no matter how illogical or irrelevant it may seem. As long as Moore thinks it's "cool".


Yes, it has changed. It's taking the character and mythological base of the first season and bringing them to the forefront. I'd argue that if you're looking for the military-centric episodes like "33" or "Pegasus" then you won't find them in this season, but I can live with that.Problem is, they're just recycling the same tedious, watered down character points again and again. How many millions times have we seen Lee Adama and Starbuck fall out and make up? How many times have Admiral Adama said he trusts Starbuck implicitly and that he thinks of her as a daughter, before either kicking the chair out from under her, choking her against a wall, or asking her to shoot him in his usual overly dramatic fashion, before doing yet another predictable 180 turn and telling her he trusts her implicitly, thinks of her as a daughter and blah, blah, blah, while the bagpipe music starts up, so we know it's meant to be an emotional moment, rather than the farcical regurgitation of old ideas it would otherwise have seemed like? Maybe you can live with that. I can certainly live without it.

[Ragebot]

Well, it's BSG, so we know anything can happen, no matter how illogical or irrelevant it may seem. As long as Moore thinks it's "cool".

What's so "illogical" or "irrelevant" about the Final Five? Now they could always botch the revelation somewhat (I'm not expecting to be 100% satisfied), but the Cylons are such an enigma anyway that it still seems to flow well.


Problem is, they're just recycling the same tedious, watered down character points again and again. How many millions times have we seen Lee Adama and Starbuck fall out and make up? How many times have Admiral Adama said he trusts Starbuck implicitly and that he thinks of her as a daughter, before either kicking the chair out from under her, choking her against a wall, or asking her to shoot him in his usual overly dramatic fashion, before doing yet another predictable 180 turn and telling her he trusts her implicitly, thinks of her as a daughter and blah, blah, blah, while the bagpipe music starts up, so we know it's meant to be an emotional moment, rather than the farcical regurgitation of old ideas it would otherwise have seemed like?

I know you said that you haven't seen much of the season, but very little of these clichés you've mentioned have been seen this year. Lee and Kara have (thankfully) had a grand total of one major scene together this year, and instead we've been getting plenty of new interesting stuff involving the final four, Natalie, Cavil, Roslin, the Sharons, Gaeta and Baltar. Far moreso than we did last year.

Anyway, I think I'll leave it at that. I really don't want to see this thread get derailed from discussing the episodes at hand.

[DarkAngel]

Another show that drowned in its own self-importance.
:D Well, I quite liked it.


I don't mind you thinking it's great, I'm just saying I think it has slipped considerably from its best form, and I'm no longer interested in it.
I can't argue with that. I feel differently, but that's not really something we can argue. We're each going to have our own perception.


I sort of agree. I hated the whole idea of New Caprica, but there were actually a few things that could have worked, if they had at least stuck with it.
Yeah. I felt what we saw was gold, but I was suprised it was only 4 episodes in length. But I suppose better shorter than going too long and dragging it out unnecessarily.


Regardless of who it was that said it, you must surely agree that if the ratings hadn't slipped so badly, Moore would not have wrapped it up with 4 seasons.
He had mentioned after the third season that he could do another 1 or 2 seasons and that for him it was question of doing what was best for the show vs continuing longer because he personally would love to continue because he enjoyed it so much.

I think there's no doubt the danger of being cancelled if they went beyond 4 seasons played into the decision to end with this season. If they'd tried to go another two years, there was the obvious (and maybe likely) chance of being cancelled after the 4th.

But even if ratings were stellar, creatively I don't see the show going beyond 5. They were inevitably moving toward the end game in the short term given the threads they introduced late 3rd season. There wouldn't have been much more they could have done to go beyond another 1-2 seasons.


Like I mentioned earlier, he was even running around pretending the show hadn't been cancelled, when everyone knew it was a done deal.
The show wasn't cancelled. Like I said above, they ended up getting a full 4th season, but if they had decided "we want to proceed as though we'll get a 5th", they'd have been playing with fire since there'd be no certainty/guarantee they'd get another season after the 4th.

Now, we can't say this is anything more than rumor/speculation, but apparantly there's a possibility of getting a few BSG tv movies after the 4th season (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/05/more-battlestar.html). I won't put any stock in that until we get to the end and hear some more official rumblings.

DA

[mr.happy]

I can't argue with that. I feel differently, but that's not really something we can argue. We're each going to have our own perception.But it's worth noting that this drop in quality coincides with what can only be described as a haemorrhaging of viewers, as well as getting some of the worst user ratings of the show's entire run from the few people who actually stuck with it.


The show wasn't cancelled. Like I said above, they ended up getting a full 4th season, but if they had decided "we want to proceed as though we'll get a 5th", they'd have been playing with fire since there'd be no certainty/guarantee they'd get another season after the 4th.The show was ended, canceled, dropped, or whatever you'd like to call it, because it had lost close to 75% of its viewership. That's extraordinary. They bottomed out with just over 1 million viewers last year, and they're not doing a lot better this year. The only reason they got a full 4th season was because dropping a flagship show like this without wrapping it up could have had disastrous consequences for future serialized shows, and because a certain amount more episodes in the can meant they could put the show in syndication. It makes more sense to take the profit hit from the final season, so they have enough episodes to make money in syndication and on DVD, than to simply drop it. There's also a great degree of affection for the show at SciFi HQ, since it brought them a lot of critical acclaim, viewers and attention during the first few seasons.

[Ed Liu]

It was succinctly revealed in "The Farm" that their plan was to conceive a Human-Cylon child. The plan changed in "Downloaded" when the two war heroes instituted their ideological reforms. And now, following the events in "Six of One" they have gone in two separate directions. The point is that all of the various factions of the Cylons (Cavil/Simon/Doral, the rebels, the Final Four, the Centurions, the threes, and the one unrevealed) have their own agendas that the Colonials know nothing about. You might argue that that interpretation doesn't gel with the opening text in the pre-cap, but I don't think it's a cheat. I'd rather be superficially mislead in the teaser then have the Cylons unilaterally follow a specific "plan".

I don't know, the show always seemed to be implying that the Cylons were operating with a much larger purpose in mind than just getting a human-Cylon hybrid. That just begs the question, "For what?" And if that was their Grand Plan, then I have to say that starting this plan by exterminating 99% of the human race just shows that Cylons really, really suck at plans.

It also kind of undermines their menace as antagonists (which is different from calling them "the bad guys" because they never really were). Look at an episode like "33" -- the fact that the Cylons would follow the fleet with nuisance attacks every 33 minutes for days on end was part of a plan. We never found out what this plan was, but their actions made it clear that there WAS one. This is a case where the writers didn't need to have a plan in mind to write the episode. In fact one reason why I thought it worked was because it showed us early on that the Cylons did not think or act like humans -- they had a plan that made perfect sense to a machine (which might have been as simple as a "for" loop), but which people (either on the show or watching it) just couldn't fathom.

That seemed to be what the Cylons had in mind at one point, where "exterminate the humans" or "have a hybrid child" were just parts of a much larger plan that wasn't human. Problem is that you CAN'T get away with not having one in that case, because it's the foundation of the show. It's a fundamental violation of Chekov's rule that if you see a gun on the mantle in act 1 of a play, it better go off by act 3. As time has worn on, it has become pretty clear to me that this plan never existed in the writers' minds, and I feel kind of cheated that this lynchpin of the show turned out to be vaporware. I still find it interesting to tune in, although the reasons now are a combination of just wanting to see where they go with this, an affection for a lot of the characters, and the knowledge that this isn't going to go on for much longer.

Also, there's nothing else on TV worth watching :p.

OK, I just can't resist:

Cylon33.py:



for i in range(0,10000):
self.attackHumans()
time.sleep(1980) # Sleep is in SECONDS, not minutes!
-- Ed

[Swordfish_II]

Galactica returns tonight after a week off. New episode tonight @ 10!

[Ed Liu]

Yeesh, was that episode a grind to get through. From the second that Apollo says that his father won't accept the Zarek presidency, I just knew that Apollo was going to be sworn in as the President. As a result, all the tedious discussion with lawyer-guy was boring as hell (and no, I don't believe it's any commentary on our current election or, if it is, it's really really dumb and painfully obvious commentary that belittles nearly everyone involved). I still don't know what the heck they were on about with his cat, either. Watching Adama and Tigh going at it was the moment when this season sailed right over that shark tank on a motorcycle.

I don't mind that they're making me wait for the revelations on the Cylon base ship, but wasting the episode with this dreck just made that wait more frustrating. I'm also convinced that the trailer was cut in an Interesting Way to mislead us into thinking they just revealed the last member of the final five. Perfect instance of what I call "fauxshadowing" -- the way you know that some element X of a show is NOT true by the way they try to make sure that you think X IS true. Unless, of course, it IS true, in which case...uh...never mind :p.

-- Ed

[Wounded_Dragon]

Yeesh, was that episode a grind to get through. From the second that Apollo says that his father won't accept the Zarek presidency, I just knew that Apollo was going to be sworn in as the President. As a result, all the tedious discussion with lawyer-guy was boring as hell (and no, I don't believe it's any commentary on our current election or, if it is, it's really really dumb and painfully obvious commentary that belittles nearly everyone involved). I still don't know what the heck they were on about with his cat, either. Watching Adama and Tigh going at it was the moment when this season sailed right over that shark tank on a motorcycle.

I'm also convinced that the trailer was cut in an Interesting Way to mislead us into thinking they just revealed the last member of the final five. Perfect instance of what I call "fauxshadowing" -- the way you know that some element X of a show is NOT true by the way they try to make sure that you think X IS true. Unless, of course, it IS true, in which case...uh...never mind :p.

-- Ed

I'm not sure if anyone was really in doubt that Lee would be the interim president. The discussions were really more of trying to convince Lee to be it. Lawyer guy is right, Lee really needs to be pushed for these kinds of things.

I'm not going to parallel it with real-life elections, but I do think it's intriguing and sad, that arguably the better presidents for the fleet have been appointed and not elected. Baltar got them all caught by the Cylons on New Caprica and Zarek is completely untrustworthy to the military. These are the people that were elected?

You're right though, this was a pretty slow episode, even if I didn't have as many problems with it.

I'd rather have these fauxshadows than their Season 2 promos that practically spoiled the next episode EVERY time. Luckily I don't mind spoilers, but I know someone who does, and boy did she have to dive into another room, change the channel, or pull the plug every time a promo came up.

[DarkAngel]

I'm not sure if anyone was really in doubt that Lee would be the interim president. The discussions were really more of trying to convince Lee to be it. Lawyer guy is right, Lee really needs to be pushed for these kinds of things.
I'm wondering if they were getting at Romo being the 5th. I didn't catch all of the conversations between him and Lee or between Romo and Adama (since my roommate was in the room and chose very inopportune times to start talking), but it seemed like there was some manipulation of the Adamas going on there potentially? He seemed to play a role not only in getting Lee to accept the presidency but in getting Adama to step aside and (and thereby getting Tigh into the military leadership position).

Again, I missed chunks of the end conversations but any possibility there?

DA

[Palin Dromos]

I'm wondering if they were getting at Romo being the 5th.

No, no, no, no, no, it's quite clear that the Cat is the 5th Cylon.
We've had "Head-6", "Head-Baltar", and now "Head-Cat."
C'mon, no one would see that coming.:p

(Although in all honesty Romo as the 5th would be cool, unlikely, but a cool thought.)

[mr.happy]

I was just going through some old emails and came across this little gem, which seemed even funnier now that the "they have a plan" bit has officially been dropped. :)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3016/bsgwhatisaplanvu0.jpg


I'm sure I had at least one more of these, but I can't seem to find them. Does anyone have any of the other ones or know where they're from?

[Swordfish_II]

Will the fifth and final Final Five be revealed tonight? *shakes magic 8 ball*

Sources say maybe!

[Swordfish_II]

Wow...

This was probably the best episode in a while, if not the whole series.

[Rook]

oookay, a little annoyed by the "we screwed up our planet future" concept now.

Saw what looked like a bridge when camera pan came to a finish, any chance its New York?

Well hey kids, its sandbox time. Lets get to rebuilding.

[silverwings]

oookay, a little annoyed by the "we screwed up our planet future" concept now.

Saw what looked like a bridge when camera pan came to a finish, any chance its New York?

I hope not, if only because it's *always* New York.

I have to say, the ending of the episode was, um, underwhelming. I think I would have prefered it to end with them jumping off after earth and leave the rest for the next "season."

Though I'm probably the only one. :sweat:

Also, why did no one ask D'Anna who the fifth was? :shrug:

[Paul_Cousins]

What an episode. This was on good rollcoaster ride. From the way Saul revealed he was a cylon to Adama. To Adama's break down, very believable considering everything he's been through, having the weight of humanity's future on his shoulders. To Apollo consoloing his father and stepping up to the plate to deal with the situation. And finally reaching earth, only to find it in ruins.

Wow! :cool:

[Wounded_Dragon]

I hope not, if only because it's *always* New York.

I have to say, the ending of the episode was, um, underwhelming. I think I would have prefered it to end with them jumping off after earth and leave the rest for the next "season."

Though I'm probably the only one. :sweat:

Also, why did no one ask D'Anna who the fifth was? :shrug:

You're not the only one. I don't get any excitement or energy from this cliffhanger. This could've served as a depressing series finale and I can't help wondering if that was the backup plan.

[DarkAngel]

You're not the only one. I don't get any excitement or energy from this cliffhanger. This could've served as a depressing series finale and I can't help wondering if that was the backup plan.
Well, how exactly would one find excitement given what they found? By its nature, it can't and really wasn't meant to be energetic. It's a numbing discovery and really played out as such, at least for me.

You're right, it would have made for a depressing series finale. But this isn't the series finale, it's the mid-season cliffhanger, and as such it works incredibly. Dramatically, its great. I mean, there wouldn't be a whole lot to look forward to or anticipate if they found sunshine and a fully populated planet welcoming them with open arms.

Nice Planet of the Apes vibe and tribute, and leaves you wondering (or at least has me wondering) where the heck are they gonna take things now? And that's certainly a feeling I like having with a cliffhanger.

Also great that they get to this point earlier in the season, rather than waiting for the very last episode (like Voyager, for instance, which actually waited until the very last minutes). I'd hate that, as I don't want to just get there, but have some time to appreciate it and explore some things.

Now we'll have to see whether they have enough to sustain interest over another 10 episodes, as I was not expecting this discovery this early in the season.

DA

[Wounded_Dragon]

Maybe, but when you factor in when SCIFI will get around to airing the final 10, you have to wonder if this is a bad decision. There really is nothing here that says the story will go on at all. It really makes you wonder if that's the reason behind SCIFI really pushing that this is a MIDSEASON finale, as if they're worried that people may get the wrong impression.

[Icer]

Between the "what now" and "5th" the show should have ample story to explore, I look forward to its return.

[The Clown Prince]

Great episode and I was actually stunned at the Earth reveal at the end. Like all the other fans, I was not expecting the Earth arrival this "soon." I don't know how Moore and Sci-Fi kept this from getting leaked. But the debate has begun if this is even Earth at all (I think it is) but it is not "the promised land" as described

This is from a post over at Aintitcool...


Here are the pertinent quotes:

Elosha: "And the lords anointed a leader to guide the Caravan of the Heavens to their new homeland." (The Hand of God)

Elosha: She also wrote that the new leader suffered a wasting disease and would not live to enter the new land. (The Hand of God)
Roslin: The scriptures tell us a dying leader lead humanity to the promised land. (Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I)

NOTE: Earth isn't mentioned. Just a "promised" land. A "new" land. I believe this is Earth, but I don't believe this is where the 13th Tribe is. The Colonials made a mistake: they followed Kara.


"They followed Kara, the harbringer of death." So it looks like they may leave Earth to find a new home(?), and this would explain Roslin's eventual death before arriving to the promised land and possibly meeting up with the 13th Colony. Where that new home might be? Who knows.

I'm really excited for the final episodes because with the arrivial at Earth, I have absolutley NO IDEA where this series is going and I love it when a TV show or movie or book can make me feel like that. This is going to be a fun ride to the finish.

I'm glad Moore decided to set the timeline of Earth in the far future. It explains many of the Earthly references that have been mentioned all through out the series.

Also, it appears that the final episode (which is currently filming now) will be 3 hours long taking the episode count from 10 to 12. I guess Moore's script when he was done writing it was pretty long. From The Chicago Tribune (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/battlestars-fin.html).....



As "Battlestar Galactica" gets ready to air its mid-season finale on Friday, there are two bits of good news to share regarding the show.

According to well-informed sources, it’s almost certain that at least one “Battlestar Galactica” TV movie will be made this year.
Here’s even better news: Up to two hours may be added to “Battlestar’s” final run of episodes.

You heard that right: The last leg of the show’s final season could expand to 12 hours, instead of the originally planned 10 hours.

As he discussed here (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/04/ron-moore-on-ba.html), the show’s executive producer, Ronald D. Moore, wrote "Battlestar's" final episode, which could be up to three hours long (a wild guess here: Sci Fi probably wouldn’t air the whole thing in one night). Mary McDonnell described her reaction to the script this way: It filled her with "an incredible feeling of adrenaline,” she told Ain't It Cool News (http://www.aintitcool.com/node/37054). “It made me understand the entire saga, and made me excited for all of you.”

UPDATE: Here's a statement from from a Sci Fi spokesman: "As written by Ron, the phenomenal finale script extends beyond the time alotted for the episode. We're exploring how to shoot the extra footage as Ron has envisioned and written it."

As for when the final part of Season 4 will air, Moore has told TV Guide (http://community.tvguide.com/blog-entry/TVGuide-News-Blog/Todays-News/Galactica-Series-Finale/800041381) that it’s probably going to be in 2009. (Update: EOnline.com (http://www.eonline.com/gossip/kristin/detail/index.jsp?uuid=70bf6664-9221-4972-8bea-06aabd65d1e5) reports that the president of Sci Fi has said the last episodes will begin airing in the "first quarter" of 2009.)

Regarding the “Battlestar” TV movie, as "Razor" did, it will probably air on Sci Fi first then be released on DVD within days (the preceding sentence was updated with new information from a Sci Fi rep). There’s no word on who will be in the movie, what it will be about and when it will air. All of that is still to be determined.

In a previous story (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/05/more-battlestar.html), I’d reported that up to three films were being considered. Whether the other two “Battlestar” TV movies will get made is an open question at this point, but it is possible, according to my sources and according to Galactica Sitrep (http://galacticasitrep.blogspot.com/2008/06/more-about-these-tv-movies.html) (which also has wall-to-wall coverage (http://galacticasitrep.blogspot.com/2008/06/live-at-cinerama-dome.html) of Wednesday’s screening of the mid-season finale at Los Angeles’ Cinerama Dome).

Stay tuned for more “Battlestar” thoughts: I’ll have a blog post up on Friday’s mid-season finale, “Revelations,” this weekend.


First quarter huh? That translates to January, February, or March.

[DarkAngel]

There really is nothing here that says the story will go on at all. It really makes you wonder if that's the reason behind SCIFI really pushing that this is a MIDSEASON finale, as if they're worried that people may get the wrong impression.
Interesting point. But I think at this stage we're not really looking at a lot of new viewers watching this. I'd say its almost entirely the devoted BSG fans who know there's another 10 episodes coming. And with the fact that they still haven't revealed the 5th, or what's happening with the other half of the cylons, we can tell its not quite done yet and that there are some areas to explore.

As stated in that post Clown Prince posted above, the Roslin vs Kara angle in terms of dying leader vs harbinger of death doesn't seem to have reached complete closure yet. So it really doesn't feel like series end yet. There's still a lot they need to develop and bring to a close.

[silverwings]

First quarter huh? That translates to January, February, or March.

Yeah, but this season was supposed to start in January, too, and look how that turned out. :(

I'm just going to assume the new "season" will start in April. That way, if its earlier, I am pleasantly surprised. :anime:

[Paul_Cousins]

Yeah, but this season was supposed to start in January, too, and look how that turned out. :(

I'm just going to assume the new "season" will start in April. That way, if its earlier, I am pleasantly surprised. :anime:The delay was because of the writer's strike in Hollywood. With no strike anymore, chances of another delay is minimal.

[The Clown Prince]

The delay was because of the writer's strike in Hollywood. With no strike anymore, chances of another delay is minimal.

On the plus side (if that's what you want to call it) if there is an actor's strike after June 30th, the final episode will have wrapped up filming by then. And if the strike goes on long enough to plague the network shows in the fall, then there won't be that competition that Ron Moore was talking about. Then possibly BSG could return somtime this year.

It's a bit of a stretch, but you never know. :p

[mr.happy]

Having been sidelined with an injury for a few days, and with nothing better to do, I decided to catch up with this season of BSG in time for the mid-season finale. I must say it was pretty tough going. All in all, this season was probably worse than season 3, and that's saying something. Off the top of my head, the only noticeable highlight was Tricia Helfer's occasionally brilliant performances, not least of which in the scene onboard the Cylon baseship, where one Six had to kill another. It was well written and magnificently played. For a brief moment, the show felt like it had found its mojo again. It didn't last long, of course, but credit where credit is due. Helfer routinely upstages both Olmos and McDonnel, whose performance has really become quite heavy-handed since season 1.

Anyway, having worked my way through the dullest season ever, or half of it, to be exact, I didn't expect much of the finale, but it was really quite good in a restrained sort of way. Not anything like season 1 or 2 good, but it didn't suck either. Sure there was too much of the usual snarling Adama melodramatics, that guy seriously needs to adjust his Prozac intake, and sure it felt like we'd seen the stand-off scenario a million times before, but at least the episode moved along at a reasonable pace, and I guess it was kind of a pleasant surprise that they actually went ahead and gave us Earth as a mid-season finale, even if the outcome was utterly underwhelming and predictable, and on the upside, it seemed like the show handed a much earned way out to those of us who just don't give a rat's youknowwhat about who the 5th Cylon might be, and don't feel like having to wait a year, never mind endure another half season of general BSG tedium, just to make it to the finishing line, so I'm tempted to consider this a not too embarrassing ending to a once great show.

[DarkAngel]

...and on the upside, it seemed like the show handed a much earned way out to those of us who just don't give a rat's youknowwhat about who the 5th Cylon might be, and don't feel like having to wait a year, never mind endure another half season of general BSG tedium, just to make it to the finishing line, so I'm tempted to consider this a not too embarrassing ending to a once great show.
Great perspective/thought there. You're right. This could serve as a finale for those not interested in coming back for more. That's kind of neat. And I'm guessing it will serve as your exit point. That might be for the best. No point wasting time with something that's not engaging you. I'll admit, I'm stunned you subjected yourself to season 4. When I reach a point where a tv show's becoming a chore to watch, or just not worth the time any more, I've gotta bail. I just can't torture myself by watching something that's not "doing it" for me. I guess I'm weak. :D

I'm glad BSG hasn't come close to reaching that point for me. Quite the opposite. I'll be sorry to see it go.

[Rook]

so anyone think Edward Olmos should get an academy for best tragic drooling sequence?

A planet of the apes ending wouldnt of worked without someone going "Noooo! you dang durting _____".

[The Clown Prince]

An update to The Chicago Tribune story I posted above regarding the expansion of the second half of the season....



A CLARIFICATION: The final part of "Battlestar Galactica's" last season will expand and the finale of the series is expected to be three hours long, as noted here Friday. However the second half of the season is probably going to be 11 hours long, not 12 hours long, as I reported on Friday. I've changed this post to reflect the correct information as I understand it now. Sorry for any confusion.
An update to the clarification: The blog of "Battlestar Galactica" writer Mark Verheiden says (http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/06/battlestar-galactica-whats-next.html) there will be "at least" 11 hours next season. Hmmm?! Perhaps the number is in flux after all. I'll keep looking into this. Thanks for your patience.

I'll keep an eye out for updates for those that want to know.

Also, going back to what I said earlier about me being glad that Moore set the timeline of Earth in the far future. I'm still glad he did it, but there were three choices to go with. Distant past, the present, and far future. The distant past would have been neat as it could have served as the beginning of human existance on Earth but maybe not quite have made sense if the 13th Colony ended up there before the BSG crew thousands of years before.

Setting it in the present would have been extremely cool with all kinds of neat ramifications that could come about that. How would present day Earth and the humans of the world react to their human brothers from all away across multiple galaxies. This also would have thrown the religions of the world for a loop as it would become clear that humanity did not start on Earth, but from somewhere else (as the original show states). Present day humans would have to react to that. It really would have been neat to see that.

But setting it in the far future also works too. Clearly this is what Moore had thought for sometime or did he? Him and his writing crew sat down and made a huge list of stuff they would find (from an interview at one of the links above) once they got to Earth and then X'd off a few things immediately. But who knows. The far future timeline now presents all these questions not just for our characters, but for us as viewers. Was BSG Earth like ours? How far back in Earth's history did the 13th Colony end up? Did the 13th Colony leave before armageddon. Were they wiped out too with the rest of Earth? Interesting questions.

[Ed Liu]

11+ more hours of this left? I'm not positive there's a whole lot more I desperately need them to say that requires that much time.

The emphasis that this is the mid-season finale might be because, as mr.happy points out, it would be very easy to mistake it for an extremely depressing and incomplete series finale. That's certainly what I thought until they showed the trailer for new stuff coming "soon." I figured there were at most 1 or 2 more episodes to go (mostly to address where the other Cylons are and who the last of the final 5 is). If they're going to drag this out that much longer, I may well make this my exit point as well.

Beyond that, though, it was a pretty good episode. I liked how the brinksmanship over the human hostages and 3 of the final 5 kept ratcheting up the stakes until Apollo got another alternative to take. I'm happy that they went for the non-violent solution, and that both sides were rational enough to take it without ever totally losing their suspicions of each other.

But...11 hours? Really?

-- Ed

[DarkAngel]

But...11 hours? Really?
Well, if it makes it any easier to swallow, think of it as more like 8 hours what with commercials and all. :)

[The Clown Prince]

The one thing I REALLY want to see in these last 11 hours... the return of the classic Cylon Centurion. We saw them in Razor and I don't think they were all destroyed when the ship blew. The fan in me says there are still a few left. I hope Moore brings them back to help with the closing of the show.

[Ragebot]

So did any Gundam SEED fans have a good laugh at that final shot as well?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB_z-b6EVJE

Something I whipped up.

[The Clown Prince]

The SCI-FI Channel has announced that Battlestar Galactica will return Friday January 16th at 10:00 p.m. The ten week run will take it to the final episode airing March 20th.

As has been talked about by Ron Moore and David Eick this summer, the episodes in the 10 week run probably will see some of them extended (90 minutes hopefully :) ). With the final episode possibly being as long as 3 hours (again Ron Moore talking to the Chicago Tribune earlier this summer. The link to the story is above in an earlier post).

SCI FI and Ron Moore will be more than willing to talk about the length of episodes as the premiere gets closer I'm sure.

[EroSennin]

The SCI-FI Channel has announced that Battlestar Galactica will return Friday January 16th at 10:00 p.m. The ten week run will take it to the final episode airing March 20th.

As has been talked about by Ron Moore and David Eick this summer, the episodes in the 10 week run probably will see some of them extended (90 minutes hopefully :) ). With the final episode possibly being as long as 3 hours (again Ron Moore talking to the Chicago Tribune earlier this summer. The link to the story is above in an earlier post).

SCI FI and Ron Moore will be more than willing to talk about the length of episodes as the premiere gets closer I'm sure.

Great News! Now we just have to get through the 3 month wait.

[The Clown Prince]

The new webisodes leading into the second half of the final season begin to go online next month! Click the link here (http://www.aintitcool.com/node/39127) for the full story and to find out a very personal secret that two of the characters have that will be revealed in the webisodes!

I believe this is the secret that Baltar teased Gaeta about which led to Gaeta beating the crap out of Baltar last season in the interrogation room aboard the Galatica.

[The Clown Prince]

All 10 webisodes are now online and ready to go at http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/ (http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/)! Only 4 days left until the final 10 episodes begin!

Friday January 16th at 10pm!

[Rook]

Gaeta is unintentionally guilty of aiding in manslaughter, man that was twisted. Everyone likes the short Asian Cylon, but everyone punishes tall blondy.

Upon watching all 10 webisodes at once, I frown at the Raptor crew. If ya didnt trust the "Skin Jobs", why didnt any of you stay awake to keep watch?

For the first time ever, Gaeta is taking the fight to someone rather than being picked apart mentally and physically half the time.

[The Clown Prince]

The final half of Battlestar Galatica's final season begins tonight! 10 episodes remain and Sci-Fi is expected to air them all straight through with no breaks. If Sci-Fi doesn't change their minds, then the finale will air Friday March 20th.

Episode 4.11- "Sometimes a Great Notion"
Friday January 16th at 10:00pm

Episode Description: The final Cylon is revealed!

[GWOtaku]

And so starts the beginning of the end.

Please, please don't screw this up. Let it all have a point.

[Bloody Marquis]

Hmm. Even older versions of the Centurions.

And judging form the crashed plane, Starbuck might actually be the last Cylon.

[Lord Dalek]

Great. Bob Dylan is a cylon. Thanks alot...

[silverwings]

Man, that episode was great..... up until the last scene with Tigh.

Ugh, last person on my list to be the 5th. I'm sorely disappointed. :sad:

[Wounded_Dragon]

Well, now I'm wallowing in confused depression.

If Ellen is indeed the fifth Cylon, what the heck is Starbuck? And that suicide totally threw me. And then Adama tried to do suicide by Cylon. Good Lord..:crying:

[Bloody Marquis]

Well, that episode was morbidly depressing.

[DarkAngel]

Amazing. The mid-season cliffhanger was among the best they've done and they really followed it up with something special. I'm reeling just trying to figure out the ramifications of all this. By the end, we know the final member of the Five. But by then, I was honestly wondering whether "Final Five" even captured it. Are they all cylons?

My memory is probably fuzzy, but I thought the idea was that humans originated from Earth, the original colony. But then I remembered that Kobol was probably the original colony, right? So if they all came from Kobol, and those who settled on Earth were all cylons...well, then wouldn't they all be? But they only layed out that the Four had memories of having lived on Earth, so apparantly there is something different about them and the others are actually human.

But then Kara's discovery confuses that for me, too. If she's not the Kara that disappeared last season and whose remains she finds on Earth, then who is this Kara we've been watching if not a cylon? Unless we're talking time travel. Which is a possibility, but we've never seen anything Trek-like like that before on BSG.

At the end, from what Adama was saying in addressing the fleet, it almost sounded like he was talking about humans having been driven from Earth and forced to find a new home and how they would now follow that example. That would make some sense to me, the idea of humans having been driven from Earth by the cylons who then took over the planet. But from early in the episode, it sounded clearly like they were saying the members of the 13th colony were cylons.

Also have to mention that Dee's suicide was so well handled. When she and Helo and the others were leaving the planet and she was, quietly to herself, numbly trying to fight despair, I thought then "man, I wonder if she's gonna kill herself." Credit to how they filmed the episode that as it went on, I got so drawn in by other things happening with other characters that the thought slipped from my mind and I was genuinely caught off guard when the actual moment came. Seeing her so happy before that made it all the more heart-wrenching, yet at the same time also completely understandable.

Incredible stuff and I'm eagerly awaiting what comes next. I'm especially intrigued by Kara's mystery.

DA

[macattack]

Well, that episode was morbidly depressing.

^That was my reaction in a nutshell.

[Junkion]

Well that episode confused Human-Cylon relationship and the origin of the Cylons.

So the humans of Kobol built Cylons and then centuries later their decendents built Cylons as well. Or were there Cylons all along and they just kept updating the designs.

The Cylons of Earth were they originally all Centurions or did the Skin Job variations get created by the humans of Kobol? If the humans of Kobol didn't create the Skin Jobs then the programming of the Kobol Cylons and the 12 Colonies are so similar that they both decided to create Skin Job variations. If the Cylons of Earth and the 12 Colonies are seperate groups then how can their programming be so similar that they both create Skin Job variations but different enough that they built different models of the Centurions on Earth and untold different variations of the Skin Jobs?

It also confused the identity of the Fifth of the Final Five, is it Starbuck or is it Ellen Tigh? If it is Ellen Tigh then what is Starbuck? If it is Starbuck then what was the significance of Ellen in that memory from 2,000 years ago?


Ron Moore confirms Ellen is the Fifth of the Final Five. (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html) Then what the frakk is Starbuck then?

[Rook]

Well that episode confused Human-Cylon relationship and the origin of the Cylons.

So the humans of Kobol built Cylons and then centuries later their decendents built Cylons as well. Or were there Cylons all along and they just kept updating the designs.

The Cylons of Earth were they originally all Centurions or did the Skin Job variations get created by the humans of Kobol? If the humans of Kobol didn't create the Skin Jobs then the programming of the Kobol Cylons and the 12 Colonies are so similar that they both decided to create Skin Job variations. If the Cylons of Earth and the 12 Colonies are seperate groups then how can their programming be so similar that they both create Skin Job variations but different enough that they built different models of the Centurions on Earth and untold different variations of the Skin Jobs?

It also confused the identity of the Fifth of the Final Five, is it Starbuck or is it Ellen Tigh? If it is Ellen Tigh then what is Starbuck? If it is Starbuck then what was the significance of Ellen in that memory from 2,000 years ago?


Ron Moore confirms Ellen is the Fifth of the Final Five. (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html) Then what the frakk is Starbuck then?

You know what, I think everyone is a copy. Like if one harddrive gets corrupted/destroyed, there is a backup with all the data. And if thats the case, then theirs a good chance that there are other battlestar-like places in the galaxy, not just the 13 colonies. In other words, everyone is a cylon. 3 types being: pure organic, half organic half robot, and all robot. Pure organic being considered human, at some point the other 2/3 of the group started getting uppity. Naw, no way.

[Ragebot]

But then Kara's discovery confuses that for me, too. If she's not the Kara that disappeared last season and whose remains she finds on Earth, then who is this Kara we've been watching if not a cylon?

I'm thinking that the post-Crossroads Kara might be the first instance of a human who has successfully downloaded into a Cylon body. Would that be a bit of a cheat to introduce a brand-new thirteenth model that none of the Cylons in the fleet know about? Perhaps. Or, perhaps, that Kara's new body is a human clone, and she downloaded into that? An altered Ellen Tigh model? Or maybe even a spare hybrid body.

Last time I checked, Cylon hybrids tend to go crazy around her...

[DarkAngel]

Here's an interview with RDM (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html)about the episode. Be warned of some obvious spoilers. There's also some links to interviews with a couple cast members and also thoughts from writers Weddle and Thomspon and director Michael Nankin.

DA

[The Clown Prince]

Here's an interview with RDM (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html)about the episode. Be warned of some obvious spoilers. There's also some links to interviews with a couple cast members and also thoughts from writers Weddle and Thomspon and director Michael Nankin.

DA

What's actually cool about that Chicago Tribune site is that after every episode for the remainder of the season, Ron Moore will be doing an interview to talk about the episode. Which is pretty cool as each episode it seems almost raises questions and reactions from fans.

[The Clown Prince]

Some good news for Battlestar Galactica in the ratings department. From TVGuide.com...



The Season 4.5 premiere of Battlestar Galactica — which somewhat unexpectedly sprung on us the reveal of the fifth Cylon - was watched by more than 2.1 million total viewers last Friday night. That represents a 23 percent increase over the series' average for Season 4.0, Sci Fi Channel reports.

Battlestar emerged as the No. 1 cable program in the 10 pm hour among men 18-49, and its boffo numbers made Sci Fi the No. 4 cable entertainment network of the night among the 18-49 demo.
A "Great Notion," indeed.


While very encouraging for Sci-Fi and the show itself, it's the same thing ER is going through right now. ER is seeing it's biggest ratings in quite a while, and it's all because it's the final season and the causual fan that didn't watch every week is now tuning in every week to see how it all ends. Same goes with 'Battlestar' here, and it's up in the air how Scrubs will finish out. And $10 bucks says that Lost will see a jump in ratings when it goes into it's 6th and final season next year.

I make it sound like a bad thing about the casual viewer, and it's not. It's good that people are tuning in, but damnit, where were these people and numbers when the show(s) really needed it. :sad:

[DarkAngel]

While very encouraging for Sci-Fi and the show itself, it's the same thing ER is going through right now. ER is seeing it's biggest ratings in quite a while, and it's all because it's the final season and the causual fan that didn't watch every week is now tuning in every week to see how it all ends. Same goes with 'Battlestar' here, and it's up in the air how Scrubs will finish out. And $10 bucks says that Lost will see a jump in ratings when it goes into it's 6th and final season next year.
Reminds me of what happened with 7th Heaven. I remember reading that ratings weren't that good and the series was set to end, but that the finale pulled in huge ratings (duh!), so the network decided to renew it for another year. LOL! Didn't read anything to followup on how things turned out, but I'm guessing that was probably a bad move with ratings likely returning to normal after the finale and the loss of that "casual fan" effect you're talking about.

DA

[Ed Liu]

I have to admit that I walked into this episode with really low expectations. In fact, I even forgot that the premiere was going to be on (thank you, Comcast on-demand). However, I'm happy to say that I really liked the episode and felt that it was a nice step back to quality from what I felt were really horribly uneven episodes in the first half of the season (and, for that matter, most of season 3).

Favorite moment of the episode was probably when the Chief meets Mr. Starbuck, points to the silhouette on the wall, and says, "That was me" in a really matter-of-fact way. It was just a perfect, deadpan reaction to something that's just unthinkable.


Great. Bob Dylan is a cylon. Thanks alot...

Actually, that might explain a whole lot of things...:D


I'm thinking that the post-Crossroads Kara might be the first instance of a human who has successfully downloaded into a Cylon body.

This seems to be the most likely explanation to me. The Cylons had to be doing something with all those experiments with human women. The only real question then is who made the clone if Earth has been uninhabited for 2000 years?

I thought it meant Kara was the fifth Cylon until the last-minute revelation, so now I'm not sure at all what it means. Dying to find out, though, and I didn't think I'd be able to say that again about BSG. Happy to be proven wrong, though.

[Hanshotfirst113]

Almost over....

Until the inevitable spin-off or sequel, anyway :p.

[The Clown Prince]

Almost over....

Until the inevitable spin-off or sequel, anyway :p.

Well, there is the Caprica prequel series set to debut next year. They shot a 2 hour pilot and then Sci-Fi greenlit it for series. It's set 50 years before the events in the current show.

[Hanshotfirst113]

Well, there is the Caprica prequel series set to debut next year. They shot a 2 hour pilot and then Sci-Fi greenlit it for series. It's set 50 years before the events in the current show.

Is there an amount of time that it's set to run for?

[The Clown Prince]

Is there an amount of time that it's set to run for?

There is no set time frame for how many seasons it would go for. Like everything, it depends on the ratings.

In a spoiler tag here, you'll find all the info need to know about it. Story, characters etc. Courtesy of a post from Aintitcool (http://www.aintitcool.com/node/39285).

The “Battlestar Galactica” prequel series is a go!
The "Caprica" pilot, set 50 years before the events of "Battlestar Galactica," was shot a few months ago -- and word had it that SciFi was waiting to see how the first January episodes of "Galactica" did in the ratings before the channel would consider taking "Caprica" to series.
The series, which deals with the "invention" of the Cylons, is set to shoot next summer and air in 2010.
For those unfamiliar, a rundown the series' main characters (BEWARE SPOILERS):

* DANIEL GRAYSTONE (Eric Stoltz) is literally the father of the Cylons, a fortysomething “spectacularly wealthy” computer designer.

* ZOE GRAYSTONE (Alessandra Toreson), Daniel’s hot 16-year-old daughter, dies in a suicide bombing. Daniel learns that Zoe – like iconic “Twin Peaks” dead teenager Laura Palmer – had many secrets. For one thing she was a closeted monotheist! For another, she was even more of a technological genius than daddy Daniel, and succeeded in secretly uploading her personality and DNA into a holographic avatar. Daniel comes to combine the Zoe avatar with stolen technology to create the first Cylon, “a robotic version of his dead daughter.” Oo!

* JOSEPH ADAMS (Esai Morales), Bill Adama’s pop and Romo Lampkin’s future mentor, is a fortysomething Tauron native who long ago emigrated to Caprica and overcame anti-Tauron prejudice to become an influential defense attorney on the capital planet. Joseph’s wife and daughter (Bill’s mother and sister) die in the same blast that killed Zoe Graystone. Joseph Adams and Daniel Graystone, despite their very different backgrounds, are bonded by the tragedy. Adams, who still has “powerful ties to the Tauron crime underworld” helps Greystone create the first Cylon by stealing cutting-edge robotic technology from a Tauron computer developer.

* TAMARA ADAMS (Genevieve Buechner), Joseph’s dead daughter, may also be resurrected as a robot, but Joseph – much like the dad in Stephen King’s “Pet Sematary” – comes to regret his role in the Cylonic creations.

* AMANDA GRAYSTONE (Paula Malcomson), Daniel’s thirtysomething wife, is a successful surgeon devastated by the loss of her beloved daughter Zoe.

* TOMAS VERGIS (Roger R. Cross) is Amanda Graystone’s Tauron ex-lover and one of her husband’s chief competitors. Following Zoe’s death, Amanda covertly returns to Vergis’ bed to learn more of the tech that might be used to resurrect her daughter.

* SISTER CLARICE WILLOW (Polly Walker) is another closeted monotheist and the headmistress of the Athena Academy, the polytheistic religious school Zoe attended. A product of colonial slums, the sister is presumably responsible for converting young Zoe into a monotheist.

* BEN STARK (Avan Jogiais) is Zoe’s unbalanced monotheist-fanatic boyfriend, the suicide bomber who kills, among many others, Zoe, Tamara, Bill Adama’s mom and himself in a horrific train bombing. He, too, secretly uploaded himself into a holographic avatar. But his can only be contacted by headmistress Willow.

* WILLIAM ADAMS, a dour 9-year-old introvert unaware of his Tauron heritage, is Joseph Adams’ sole surviving child. Like John Connor, he will prove humanity’s savior in a universe ruled by murderous robots.
A promo for the pilot movie is online here (http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=14&id=57977).

[The Clown Prince]

New Battlestar Galactica tonight!

Episode 4.12- "The Disquiet That Follows My Soul"
Friday, January 23rd at 10:00pm

Episode Description: The renegade Cylons seek an alliance with the Colonial fleet while Vice President Tom Zarek rallies opposition to that prospect.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Geez, this was almost pointless. Yeah, there was important progression, but already the energy feels pretty low.

[GWOtaku]

I agree, but it seems to be building up to a very tense episode next week. I'm actually pretty hopeful that the season is going to really get rolling at that point. The fallout from finding and leaving Earth is having serious and lasting consequences for the fleet, which is as it realistically should be.

[DarkAngel]

Gaeta's a frakin' worthless pustule. Someone please put him out of his misery.

DA

[Rook]

Gaeta's a frakin' worthless pustule. Someone please put him out of his misery.

DA

Cometh full circle, Mr. Loyal trying to do the right thing and being nice about it, to Mr. Rebel trying to do the right thing and being sneaky, aggressive, and persuasive about it. After all the crap they put him through i'm surprised he didn't go suicide bomber on the Cylon ship. He's a rank higher than Baltar now btw. Or is it lower? Hmm.

Also, what is wrong with Cmdr. Adama? Taking pills, headaches, stress...sign of death approaching him?

[The Clown Prince]

Also, what is wrong with Cmdr. Adama? Taking pills, headaches, stress...sign of death approaching him?

I started re-thinking about the "dying leader leading them to a new home" thing after this episode. Roslin is a dying leader that helped lead them to A Earth, but it could be a dying Adama that leads them to a NEW Earth.

As for Gaeta, this was pretty unexpected for me kind of. Mainly because I really like the character. What finally sent him over the edge if anyone here might be clueless is what happened in the 10 webisodes (http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/). So add that with Anders costing him his leg, New Caprica, and the whole Caprica getting nuked thing, yeah, it might make sense more.

It was just one thing after another, and he finally snapped so to speak.

[Ed Liu]

Does anybody on any of the other fleet ships have a better idea than Adama/Roslin (or, really, just Adama) of finding another New Earth? Because I'm seeing a lot of bellyaching and a lot of complaints and some really, colossally stupid maneuvers from them when they have no alternate plan and no defense other than Galactica if/when the Cylons catch up to them or if the Cylons among the fleet decide to attack. And has nobody thought to mention that driving away their Cylon allies of the moment makes it more likely that they'll find a habitable planet first and then say, "Finders keepers, find your own planet, neener neener neener!" when the fleet catches up?

Really, everybody in the fleet really seems to need a serious smack in the head. It drove me nuts all episode because they're acting like idiots for the sake of dramatic tension rather than because it felt believable.

[Palin Dromos]

Does anybody on any of the other fleet ships have a better idea than Adama/Roslin (or, really, just Adama) of finding another New Earth? Because I'm seeing a lot of bellyaching and a lot of complaints and some really, colossally stupid maneuvers from them when they have no alternate plan and no defense other than Galactica if/when the Cylons catch up to them or if the Cylons among the fleet decide to attack. And has nobody thought to mention that driving away their Cylon allies of the moment makes it more likely that they'll find a habitable planet first and then say, "Finders keepers, find your own planet, neener neener neener!" when the fleet catches up?

Really, everybody in the fleet really seems to need a serious smack in the head. It drove me nuts all episode because they're acting like idiots for the sake of dramatic tension rather than because it felt believable.

On a purely intellectual level I totally agree with what you're saying here.

But on a gut level, on a level of emotional rage that none of us can really identify with- how would any of us react to the Cylons when we equated the entire species with the holocaust and extermination of our race.

Racism and prejudice is wrong, but it seems to be, almost, hardwired into human society as a group, (individually we can be much more tolerant).

I can buy the irrational hatred of all things Cylon for a little while longer, but at some point Adama, Helo, Tye, and Tyrel are going to have to find a way to break through the emotional rage of the fleet and get the rational minds working again.

As viewers we can be detached, but for the 'real' people involved in the fleet's situation it's frakkin' hard.

Since this is fiction I have faith that Adama will find a way, but not before there are more frak-ups- from Human and Cylon alike.

[DarkAngel]

Really, everybody in the fleet really seems to need a serious smack in the head. It drove me nuts all episode because they're acting like idiots for the sake of dramatic tension rather than because it felt believable.
I hate seeing the blind hate as much as anyone, but with the cylons being responsible for destroying most of humanity and then, after that, occupying New Caprica and bringing new horrors upon humanity, it's completely believable that for many trust has been completely shattered.

There's even greater complexity to the situation with the current cylon split. If for no other reason than to wipe out the cylons who are seeking an alliance, the Cavill-led cylons could show up and spell doom for the fleet. It's a mess of a situation and I can't say any one particular path screams definite success.

[Ed Liu]

On a purely intellectual level I totally agree with what you're saying here.

But on a gut level, on a level of emotional rage that none of us can really identify with- how would any of us react to the Cylons when we equated the entire species with the holocaust and extermination of our race.
I see what you're saying. I guess what annoys me is that there were multiple times when I wanted Adama, Tigh, or whoever to respond to one of the critics by asking, "OK, so you don't want Cylon tech. You don't even want the Cylons. What's YOUR plan for keeping humanity from starving to death on our ships in deep space, then?" That was the easiest and most obvious way to break through that rage in the fleet and force people to recognize that they are all facing much, much bigger problems. A rotten plan that might work is better than sitting around with no plan when the ship's hit the iceberg and you're all going to freeze to death sooner rather than later.

Then again, an incredibly short-term, selfish view of things and inability to examine consequences of immediate actions characterizes humanity as much as prejudice, and BSG has gotten lots of dramatic mileage out of conflict between characters who can't get out of their respective mindsets. Adama is also the type who's more likely to just say, "Shut up and do as I say" because he's used to that working in the military chain of command. However, it still feels like something someone should have asked, out of frustration if nothing else.

Thinking about it, the only person who seems to be thinking ahead is Tom Zarek, but his looking ahead is (as it always has been) centered on what's best for Tom Zarek, not what's best for humanity. Not that this is much of a change, of course.

The fact that Gaeta's sudden change in personality is only understandable after watching the webisodes is kind of annoying, even though I think the webisodes are very well done. Not all of us are that obsessive any more, and without that context, Gaeta just comes off like a real jerk for no apparent reason.

[DarkAngel]

"OK, so you don't want Cylon tech. You don't even want the Cylons. What's YOUR plan for keeping humanity from starving to death on our ships in deep space, then?"
Unfortunately, that kind of rational thinking or questioning doesn't seem to get through to hate-minded individuals. I certainly wish we could get through to people like that, break through their emotional fog with common sense, but it seems when there are deep-rooted, heavy emotions, even if irrational, it's hard to make head way.


Thinking about it, the only person who seems to be thinking ahead is Tom Zarek, but his looking ahead is (as it always has been) centered on what's best for Tom Zarek, not what's best for humanity.
I'm really looking forward to seeing where they go with him, though. He's been under-utilized and I'd really like to see him finally get him some deserved time.


The fact that Gaeta's sudden change in personality is only understandable after watching the webisodes is kind of annoying, even though I think the webisodes are very well done. Not all of us are that obsessive any more, and without that context, Gaeta just comes off like a real jerk for no apparent reason.
I didn't see any of the webisodes, yet didn't see anything sudden or surprising about Gaeta's actions. Where he's at was made abundantly clear during Baltar's trial when he flat-out lied about Baltar and the circumstances under which he signed those execution orders. He wanted to punish Baltar for collaboration with the cylons, even if it meant lying, and now when the issues comes up again, it's not surprising he's again willing to do whatever it takes to try to stop/counter things.

I'm sure a lot (maybe all?) of this stems from his near-murder under collaboration charges, with him now projecting rage/anger at others who he sees as working with the enemy.

[cartoonboy]

Question about the potential Caprica series,
If the series takes place 50 years before, how does that play into the cyclons being around for 2000 years? Or do I have some dates messed up?

[Lord Dalek]

^It's a question you can't ask yet because there's no answer.

[The Clown Prince]

New episode tonight! And after tonight, seven more to go....

Episode 4.13- "The Oath"
Friday January 30 at 10:00pm

Episode Description: Gaeta and Zarek execute a power grab that puts Adama and Tigh on the defensive.

[Bloody Marquis]

While I can't really agree with him, it's interesting to see Gaeta like this.

[JeffBreakdown]

the end of this episode made me scream cusses violently.

[GWOtaku]

That episode rocked. It more than made up for the lethargic one from last week. Gaeta's coup will definitely have lasting consequences, and it's nice to have the series getting back to fleet drama even if it's just for awhile.

On the preview for next week, I can believe Tigh dying. He could get resurrected in the same place as Helen, who I don't believe is gone for good. But I think Adama's execution is just going to be a ploy that will backfire. Gaeta will announce it believing that it will break the back of the resistance against him, but it'll have the opposite effect because it will royally tick Roslin off. Or not, but we'll see. I just don't believe that Adama will get killed off this way.

Also, Starbuck got to kick ass again. Very good.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Gaeta such a waste of space. Zarek may be a *beep* but he's honest to himself. Gaeta lies to himself constantly.

[The Clown Prince]

The wait has been tough, ;) but tonights cliff hanger gets resolved!

Episode 4.14- Blood on the Scales
Friday, February 6th at 10:00pm

Episode Description: Zarek and Gaeta hold Adama accountable for his actions.

[Lord Dalek]

Bye bye Gaeta.

[Rook]

Well at least they put Gaeta our of his misery, and finally rid us of Zarek, about freakin time!

Gaeta had several problems that led to his downfall. One mainly being mental/trauma issues, and not fully comprehending the extremes of what he needed to do to pull this off.

Also, now that the council is gone (YAY!) i wonder who's gonna fill Colonial 1 with noise now.

And is the "Brigrat" going to be part of the main cast now?

[Ragebot]

"It stopped."

Wow. Just wow.

[Junkion]

After last week I was afraid Adama wouldn't have the balls to kill Zarek & Gaeta, glad I was wrong. Though I wished we could have seen the bullets actually hit them or their bullet riddled corpses.

[Brekkie]

One of aspects of Galactica that always kept me watching was that the writers were never scared of jumping the shark. One example was Lay Down Your Burdens when they jump one year ahead. My response was, they did not just do that and how the hell are the writers going to pull themselves out of this one?

They keep painting themselves in corners and somehow are able to walk out of it without getting their shoes dirty and the whole cast is pretty much left intact.

This time, no way and no how do people get to walk away. Even the ones who get to walk away won't leave unchanged. And with the fate of Gaeta and Zarek it shows that direction that this show is will walk a path that others fear to tread.

I knew these two episodes were frakked but when Zarek orderd the execution of the Quorum it was completely logical for him to do that but it still did not make it less shocking.


Interview with Richard Hatch. WARNING! SPOILERS
It is awesome. He makes a reference to the Ships of Light.

http://scifiwire.com/2009/02/exclusive-battlestar-galacticas-richard-hatch-on-zarek-spoilers.php

[mr.happy]

... And with the fate of Gaeta and Zarek it shows that direction that this show is will walk a path that others fear to tread.Yes, it's a bit like Jackass that way.

There's nothing particularly noteworthy about how BSG has conducted itself since the end of season 2, where they essentially killed one of the best shows on TV. Since then, this exercise in pretentiousness has been a colossal disaster that has lead Sci-Fi's flagship show straight to cancellation, and I don't buy the suggestion that a willingness to make "tough" creative decisions is any kind of substitute for making competent ones. Such hyperbole seems quite insulting to other shows who have not just dared tread the same sort of paths, but have done so without tripping over their own feet. Any idiot writer can make the audience say "OMG", but it's much more difficult to make them feel it, and the last couple of seasons of BSG have been somewhat of a numbing experience.

[Brekkie]

Yes, it's a bit like Jackass that way.

There's nothing particularly noteworthy about how BSG has conducted itself since the end of season 2, where they essentially killed one of the best shows on TV. Since then, this exercise in pretentiousness has been a colossal disaster that has lead Sci-Fi's flagship show straight to cancellation, and I don't buy the suggestion that a willingness to make "tough" creative decisions is any kind of substitute for making competent ones. Such hyperbole seems quite insulting to other shows who have not just dared tread the same sort of paths, but have done so without tripping over their own feet. Any idiot writer can make the audience say "OMG", but it's much more difficult to make them feel it, and the last couple of seasons of BSG have been somewhat of a numbing experience.

Can you give some examples?

[DarkAngel]

After last week I was afraid Adama wouldn't have the balls to kill Zarek & Gaeta, glad I was wrong.
I've been hating Gaeta, but when the moment came, I was actually feeling some sympathy for him.

I, too, was glad that Adama didn't back down from his previous statement of no forgiveness. But I am sorry to see Zarek go. I wish we could have gotten an extended stint as President for him, either here or back in season 3. But I've enjoyed what we've seen of him.

The way the coup was executed seemed sloppy, but I guess that was the point. Gaeta was too conflicted to do what needed to be done. Zarek's big mistake was not taking charge immediately and making certain Adama and Tigh were killed and their position secured. Too many loose ends were allowed to dangle for too long.

Really loved the stuff with Lee and Kara. Very cool to see them kicking ass. And, though we'd seen it in previews in previous weeks, loved Roslin's "I am coming for all of you!"

So far, the second half of season 4 has been solid. The first half felt very different in the way it flowed given the completely serialized nature and the way the various arcs were structured over all the episodes. A lot of interesting stuff, but it was tough to judge any of it until we'd seen more. Now we're getting a lot of great payoffs. From Revelations up through the latest episode, its been one hell of a ride.

With Earth already discovered, I have no idea where they'll be going from here, but I'm looking forward to finding out. If the season continues to turn out strong episodes like we've been getting, this'll be a contender for favorite season. It's close between years 2 and 3, but I think I'd name 3 right now.

DA

[Anyone00]

In her Father's image......ew.

"I'm a Cylon."
"And I'm a PC."

[The Clown Prince]

New episode! Only 5 episodes left after tonight......

Episode 4.15- "No Exit"
Friday February 13 at 10:00pm

Episode Description: Ellen Tigh resurfaces among the Cylons; Anders tells Kara that he remembers everything.

[Beefy]

Looks like Galactica is coming apart at the seams, and it's not the people this time.

Lee has a habit of getting the job of president dropped on him.

[RedKing52]

"If you'll excuse me, I have people to kill."

God, I love Cavill; still my favorite of the 12 Models.

Anyway, great episode, and at last, answers to many questions we've had for over 5 years. The final episodes are still chugging along very well. If Moore and company can keep this up, it looks like it'll be finishing as strongly as it began.

5/5

[Brekkie]

I wonder if Daniel will ever pop up?

[Ragebot]

I wonder if Daniel will ever pop up?

Well...looking at the character list for Caprica....

[The Clown Prince]

We're down to the "final 5" episodes of Battlestar Galatica!

Episode 4.16- "Deadlock"
Friday February 20 at 10:00pm

Episode Description: Ellen reuintes with the Final 5 Cylons; the rebel Cylons consider abandoning the fleet.

[Lord Dalek]

Way to go Ellen... you blew the Cylon's last best hope for salvation.

[Brekkie]

"And guns, more guns, bigger guns, better guns and when we have those we will win!"

Gaius Baltar

"This is going to end so badly."
I say to myself with a laugh.

[Rook]

Could someone remind me why civilians are allowed to live on a military ship? And why are they allowed to form gangs? Their taking up space.

How exactly did the baby die? from Caprica's stress induced by Ellen?
I hope they are going to address the issue of the Chief figuring out who killed Cally.

[James]

After a fantastic second part of the season this really wasn't my cup-of-tea. The acting was strong, the drama was tense when it needed to be, but it just was too soapy.

I never found the Tigh/Six storyline very engaging. It appeared to come out of nowhere and never really seemed to fit with the shows flow.

I was also a little disappointed with Ellen being played so close to her original personality. Simply because I found her more interesting last week.

There were a couple of bits that didn't translate for me. I wasn't sure what Six was doing in the lower decks at the beginning. Did I miss something there? And the Adama/Baltar scene. I never quite got why the answer was to arm the starving. I can't see why Adama, Lee and Roslin saw that as a salient solution to a ship anxious about becoming a mixed ship - nor how it sorted out the feeding issue (from Adama's perspective).

Still enjoyable, with some wonderful Baltar scenes, great acting all round and some wonderful cylon moments. Tigh was superbly played throughout.

Too soapy for my liking and following too many fine episodes to really shine in any way.

EDIT: Reflecting on the episode, I suppose Adama sees Baltar's humans as the best solution than having the centurions take over security for food rationing and policing given they are so short on man-power. I suppose it just surprises me as to how he'd trust Baltar. I suppose he has no choice unless he's willing to see the mix of the two races end in, as Baltar put it, a "revolution".

In a way, it works. And all the components are there in the episode, it just doesn't sing them and they get lost. A pity.

[The Clown Prince]

EDIT: Reflecting on the episode, I suppose Adama sees Baltar's humans as the best solution than having the centurions take over security for food rationing and policing given they are so short on man-power. I suppose it just surprises me as to how he'd trust Baltar. I suppose he has no choice unless he's willing to see the mix of the two races end in, as Baltar put it, a "revolution".

In a way, it works. And all the components are there in the episode, it just doesn't sing them and they get lost. A pity.

You my friend are spot on here. There was a deleted scene cut for running time purposes for this episode that had Adama, Roslin, and Lee discussing having Centurions come over for security because Adama's military has been seriously depleted after the mutiny. Baltar's line of "this is your last human solution" was to tie into that deleted scene.

[DarkAngel]

You my friend are spot on here. There was a deleted scene cut for running time purposes for this episode that had Adama, Roslin, and Lee discussing having Centurions come over for security because Adama's military has been seriously depleted after the mutiny. Baltar's line of "this is your last human solution" was to tie into that deleted scene.
Okay, so they didn't actually mention the possibility of Centurions as security in the episode? Because I didn't remember hearing that. I did listen to the podcast, so I heard RDM discuss the deleted scene, but couldn't remember if any mention of Centurions coming aboard was left in.

James, regarding Ellen, I greatly enjoyed the approach they took. When the episode began, we saw a continuation of the previous weeks character, but as she started to interact with these people she had known, I thought it was natural to see old feelings resurface and ties to past interactions seep back in. I also just loved seeing Ellen knocked off her high horse. Her motherly, I'm-so-serenely-above-all-of-you nature seemed colored with a certain arrogance and I enjoyed seeing her so easily pulled back to Earth (so to speak :) ).

And yeah, I've been such a fan of Michael Hogan's performances as Tigh. He's been so good. He stood out to me in the mini-series, and then I recall being disappointed as his character seemed pushed to the background during the first season, and maybe much of season 2 as well. So I've really been enjoying his renewed presence at the heart of things since New Caprica.

I think I'd agree with your overall impressions. I didn't really find the episode "soapy" or at least didn't think of it that way as I watched. But I would put it a step behind the previous several. But, as you said, still very enjoyable. And I'm definitely seeing the payoff in the early season stuff with Baltar and his cadre as I found all the scenes with him and the women pretty hilarious here. Callis continues to delight with the many things he's able to do with the character and Baltar's mixture of motivations, and I had a lot of fun watching the rivalry develop between him and whatever-her-name-is (who I'm still finding damned attractive).

DA

[mr.happy]

After a fantastic second part of the season this really wasn't my cup-of-tea. The acting was strong, the drama was tense when it needed to be, but it just was too soapy.I would disagree about it being fantastic so far, but it's been much better than the astonishingly bad previous season-and-a-half. The "big" mutiny episode felt like too much of a rehash of old Pegasus ideas, even as far as to yet another threat to rape... err, whatever the name of this particular Sharon model is. I forget. Other than that, the previous episodes had some of the most laughable over-acting I think I've ever seen from Olmos, which didn't help an Adama character that has turned into a complete drama queen in recent seasons. They also completely over-did the despair of the fleet, with the exception of the sort of interesting, but half-arsed suicide of Dee, which didn't really lead to much more than yet another Adama morgue scene.


I never found the Tigh/Six storyline very engaging. It appeared to come out of nowhere and never really seemed to fit with the shows flow. For some reason, they just seemed to lose focus on all the Sixs quite some time ago, which is a real shame, because Tricia Helfer is an absolute gem, who has delivered some of the show's most memorable moments, and to see her sidelined like this is just further evidence that the writers and producers don't know where the show's real strengths are.


I was also a little disappointed with Ellen being played so close to her original personality. Simply because I found her more interesting last week.I agree. Last week was the first time I saw something even remotely interesting in Ellen as a character, but then, I've made the same mistake with naked ladies before, so who knows? Either way, it certainly seemed like she had suddenly become far more self-aware and had gained a whole new sense of perspective, but as soon as she hooks up with Tigh, she's the same old, narcissistic bimbo she was when she was mind-wiped. Also, do I remember this correctly, or didn't Ellen have sex with Cavil to get Tigh released on New Caprica? I had completely forgotten, until Ellen brought up the old Seinfeld move. That's kinda creepy in an episode where they really hammered the parents/children dynamic of the Final Five and the other cylons. It's one thing to poke your Dad's eye out, but to go completely Oedipus on your Mother out of spite?


There were a couple of bits that didn't translate for me. I wasn't sure what Six was doing in the lower decks at the beginning. Did I miss something there?I don't think so. It was a really messy episode, and that scene was a bit of a "huh?" moment for me as well. Not that you couldn't find a reason for her to be there, but the episode had more than a few scenes that didn't really seem to flow into a coherent episode. Same with the bit about Baltar and the weapons. You could sort of fill in the blanks yourself, but if they don't actually explore Adama's motivations, directly or indirectly, it completely loses its relevance. By leaving it out, it just becomes a way to move the Baltar plot along, when it seemed like a far better idea to tie it into Adama's continued struggle with how far he's prepared to go with the Cylons.


Still enjoyable, with some wonderful Baltar scenes, great acting all round and some wonderful cylon moments. Tigh was superbly played throughout.Having been one of the weaker characters of the first couple of seasons, and with virtually every other character having devolved over the course of the series, Tigh has really been something of a revelation from time to time.

[James]

You my friend are spot on here. There was a deleted scene cut for running time purposes for this episode that had Adama, Roslin, and Lee discussing having Centurions come over for security because Adama's military has been seriously depleted after the mutiny. Baltar's line of "this is your last human solution" was to tie into that deleted scene.

That's really interesting. I've not checked out Moore's commentary yet (saving that for my walk later), thanks for the update. That feels more like the Galactica I know - just felt odd the issue was glossed over in the cut.


Okay, so they didn't actually mention the possibility of Centurions as security in the episode? Because I didn't remember hearing that. I did listen to the podcast, so I heard RDM discuss the deleted scene, but couldn't remember if any mention of Centurions coming aboard was left in.

Baltar mentions it in the episode, but I think what concerned me was the fact that we got no reaction from Roslin and Lee in the cut, which made the process of such a major step in the story seem more arbitrary than informed, which didn't feel inkeeping with the show.


James, regarding Ellen, I greatly enjoyed the approach they took. When the episode began, we saw a continuation of the previous weeks character, but as she started to interact with these people she had known, I thought it was natural to see old feelings resurface and ties to past interactions seep back in. I also just loved seeing Ellen knocked off her high horse. Her motherly, I'm-so-serenely-above-all-of-you nature seemed colored with a certain arrogance and I enjoyed seeing her so easily pulled back to Earth (so to speak :) ).

I'm not suggesting the way was wrong or inappropriate, simply didn't grab me. A narrative aesthetic you could call it. I enjoyed seeing a very different Ellen and wondering how she would interact with the old characters, instead we had a great deal of old school Ellen. I suppose its because this is an intense journey so we've explored all the character interactions pretty deeply, so bring her back to being manipulative and selfish didn't feel as new and fresh as the Ellen we saw last week. Obviously there were differences, she wasn't quite as vindictive and there was compassion there that wasn't previous, but it just felt like we were treading more old ground than new.

But that's me. :)


And yeah, I've been such a fan of Michael Hogan's performances as Tigh. He's been so good. He stood out to me in the mini-series, and then I recall being disappointed as his character seemed pushed to the background during the first season, and maybe much of season 2 as well. So I've really been enjoying his renewed presence at the heart of things since New Caprica.

Yes, I loved his work here and in this season. Fantastic actor.


seemed like she had suddenly become far more self-aware and had gained a whole new sense of perspective, but as soon as she hooks up with Tigh, she's the same old, narcissistic bimbo she was when she was mind-wiped. Also, do I remember this correctly, or didn't Ellen have sex with Cavil to get Tigh released on New Caprica? I had completely forgotten, until Ellen brought up the old Seinfeld move. That's kinda creepy in an episode where they really hammered the parents/children dynamic of the Final Five and the other cylons. It's one thing to poke your Dad's eye out, but to go completely Oedipus on your Mother out of spite?

They do love their flawed characters don't they? It did all seem a bit petty compared to last week, but in fairness, people can be like that. You can be objectively bright and compassionate, but personally emotive and controlling.

I think my issue stems from her death in season three being one of the most poignant and strong pieces of drama in the whole show. To bring her back does dilute its impact and I think having her display the same personality traits somehow diminishes the worth of the death. If she came back as a new personality - a new character even - there would be loss in death. When she comes back just slightly different, the death of Ellen Tigh just doesn't carry any strength anymore.


Same with the bit about Baltar and the weapons. You could sort of fill in the blanks yourself, but if they don't actually explore Adama's motivations, directly or indirectly, it completely loses its relevance. By leaving it out, it just becomes a way to move the Baltar plot along, when it seemed like a far better idea to tie it into Adama's continued struggle with how far he's prepared to go with the Cylons.

I totally agree. I think that nails the issue on the head. Sounds like the scene they cut had more importance to the narrative tread than they realised, as such what's probably a major step in the story feels underplayed - and missing some vital facets to the choices made by the characters.

Having been one of the weaker characters of the first couple of seasons, and with virtually every other character having devolved over the course of the series, Tigh has really been something of a revelation from time to time.[/QUOTE]

[mr.happy]

Given we're both fairly inflexible people with opinions, we have to agree to disagree!It's never been my view that a person who has faith in the overpoweringly persuasive nature of his argument would ever propose such a compromise. Thus I reject the proposal. ;)


I think Adama's arc feels true to me. There is only so long you can imagine holding the stress of humanity in your hand, and after the negative discovery of Earth, I could see that battle between unhappiness and duty causing some nasty results.I think the overall arc is less problematic than the particulars, and in fairness, Adama is one of those characters who have suffered the least, compared to the likes of Six, Starbuck, Baltar, never mind any number of minor characters who were given far more attention that they could possibly handle. What I meant by Adama being a drama queen is how often he has flown into overly emotional temper tantrums. I can't even remember how many times he has denounced Starbuck as his "daughter", tried to choke her, held a gun to her head, screamed at her, kicked the chair out from under her, asked her to shoot him, etc, etc, always playing the exact same hysterical beat, which only served to undermine the relationship they had tried so hard to build, and eventually became nothing more than a predictably transparent setup for an attempted emotional reunion, when he professes his fundamental belief in her... until the next temper tantrum, which Olmos played in an increasingly ham-fisted fashion. I thought for sure I saw him drooling and spitting in a recent run-in with Tigh, who has probably been on the receiving end of his Britney Spears-like mood swings as often as Starbuck has.


As for the mutiny, I liked it. It was better than season two's coup - far better.How dare you, sir?! I thought the Pegasus 2-parter, and specifically the Pegasus episode itself, was by far and away the finest piece of TV sci-fi ever created. The mutiny seemed like an attempt to make lightning strike twice, and as a far more deliberate attempt to get back to some of the things that had worked well in the past. Suddenly, Starbuck had snapped out of her state of depression, and was kicking ass and taking names. Lee was back in action mode, touching on some of the old relationship/approval issues with his father, and I think they even shared a kiss again... Lee and Starbuck, that is. :) We also had the tried and tested shall-we-fire-on-a-friendly-ship beat, shall-we-rape-Sharon, etc, etc. Not that any of it was outright bad, it just felt a little forced, and although for the most part extremely well directed, I did have a bit of a giggle about the scene where Adama walks through Galactica's hallways with a gun, while depressed and suicidal crew members are strewn about the place. It was just so cheesy, I felt like I was watching Babylon 5 for a moment.


In the end, as Star Trek will always be meeting strange new races, or Star Wars will always love their lightsabers, there are certain trappings to shows that are bound to re-occur.Yeah, but everyone loves lightsabers. I don't think anyone is going to single out Adama's histrionics as a particular worthwhile or iconic aspect of the show.


Galatica is as political as it is sci-fi. Question is, do they work on their return? Personally I think the mutiny worked very well indeed.I think the idea of a mutiny made perfect sense. It was the execution more than the idea I had a problem with.


And I loved Dee's death. Shocking, surprising and good for the series.I wanted to love it, I really did, but as surprising as the timing was, it just didn't feel shocking to me at all, considering we hadn't really seen Dee for the better part of two seasons, and how they had undermined her character when we last saw her on a regular basis. For me, there just wasn't enough of an emotional attachment to the character to really care at this point, and that's what you need for a moment like this to really resonate. Remember when Boomer shot herself in the face? That to me had far more emotional impact than this did. Or what about the original "why" morgue scene with the dead Boomer and Adama, which was only made even more intriguing by the time Adama came face to face, quite literally, with another Sharon who repeated that very qeustion question to him. Sadly, the potential brilliance of this moment was completely undermined by the time Moore put out a podcast in which he admitted that he had no idea what this meant, and that it just seemed like a "cool thing to do". This was the first time I really started to suspect that the emperor wasn't wearing any clothes. So with that in mind, Dee's suicide felt more like the show making a statement about their creative "bravery" than really playing it for the sake of the storyline. Same with Gaeta, who should never have been much more than a glorified extra. On some level, I'd quite like to listen to the podcast and hear Moore's excuses for that one, but I haven't been able to listen to them since his irritating wife started making regular appearances, and I must confess, I feel myself slipping into sort of a Chris Brown mindset whenever I hear the sound of her voice. :)


That said, I do agree that an end is good for the show. It's been a very intense saga and as such it's exploration of themes and characters have been extensive. I feels this is a natural flow to a conclusion.Like I said at the time, it was clear to me that the show was dead, creatively speaking, by season 3, when the viewer exodus started, and the decision was made to wrap it up. In their defence, they have managed to somewhat steady the ship since the truly appalling season 3, and if they can avoid an X-Files ending, they might just have have done enough to be remembered as one of the best sci-fi shows of all time. But before they lost their way, they had a real shot at being one of the best shows of all time, of any genre.

Having said that, I feel a little uncertain about where this is all going, in the sense that I have no idea whatsoever. I thought it was interesting to find Earth 10 episodes before the finishing line, but I'm not sure what they can do now, or even what I'd like them to do, so when I'm watching the show now, it's with a kind of detached indifference, where in the past I would formulate intricate theories about what something might mean, where it might lead, etc, etc. There are no big reveals left, I have no particular wishes for where I'd like to see the characters go, I barely care who lives or dies, I really just want to get to the end now.


Well I don't agree with that. I think the strengths are abound in many directions.Oh sure, but there are certain basic, core qualities upon which the show is built, and those almost always come from the characters. It doesn't matter how well constructed, authentic or clever a political storyline might be, if you don't care about the characters. For instance, Baltar and head-Six used to be such a strong part of the show, which has fallen by the way side. It's quite clear that they ran out of ideas for both of them, and weren't really prepared to address what the deal was with her being in his head in the first place, simply because they didn't know. Starbuck was completely de-fanged by the time they put in her silly hair extensions and had her hug her arch-nemesis Tigh on New Caprica, and they killed any interesting aspect of her relationship with Lee, when they actually tried to play out the romantic aspect, again on New Caprica, which in many ways was where they really wrecked the show. Even Boomer's shackled talks with Adama was the sort of pure TV gold we haven't seen for a couple of seasons. In fact, back then, the idea that Adama was suddenly starting to look differently at Cylons had far more momentum and resonance that it has had recently, when they've tried to revive that particular idea. I could go on and on, and like I said, I can't think of anyone other than Tigh that has improved over the last few seasons, and I'd like to think it isn't merely by virtue of how everyone else's characters have suffered.


I suspect Cavell's appearance intrigued the writers (and audiences) and that took the foreground...I'm sure that's absolutely true for the writers, but clearly not for the audiences, as Cavil's screen time was almost inversely proportional to the ratings. The same happened on Lost, a show which completely ran out of ideas in a very similar fashion. Suddenly, it was so much more about Ben, a character who resembles Cavil (and one of us is spelling that wrong), and who, for better or for worse, brings many of the same things to the table. Mostly for worse. Cavil as the big baddie seems like something on an afterthought.


We clearly get different things from the show so whose to say where the show's "strength" objectively lies? And why yours - or mine - can be certified as the right or wrong approach.Let's agree that mine can best be certified as right. ;) I don't begrudge you your appreciation for what they have done since season 3, but I flat-out said at the end of season 2 that they had wrecked the show, and sure enough, they started hemorrhaging viewers from the premiere of season 3, right through to the inevitable announcement that the show was ending. Which, I'd like to point out, was repeatedly denied by Moore. There was even a thread around here which had the cancellation title changed after Moore's denials, as I recall. And be honest, as much as you still like the show, do you really feel it's as interesting and intriuging as it used to be?


They do love their flawed characters don't they? It did all seem a bit petty compared to last week, but in fairness, people can be like that. You can be objectively bright and compassionate, but personally emotive and controlling.But that's not the acid test for whether it's a good idea or not. Like I said about Six's odd scene, or Adama and Baltar, you can certainly find a way to explain it and fill in the blanks, but it just didn't play right in context, and it didn't bring anything interesting to the episode, quite the contrary.


I think my issue stems from her death in season three being one of the most poignant and strong pieces of drama in the whole show. To bring her back does dilute its impact and I think having her display the same personality traits somehow diminishes the worth of the death. If she came back as a new personality - a new character even - there would be loss in death. When she comes back just slightly different, the death of Ellen Tigh just doesn't carry any strength anymore.I agree, and as a character, the old Ellen Tigh wasn't interesting enough to bring back as more or less the same character.

[DarkAngel]

How dare you, sir?! I thought the Pegasus 2-parter, and specifically the Pegasus episode itself, was by far and away the finest piece of TV sci-fi ever created. The mutiny seemed like an attempt to make lightning strike twice, and as a far more deliberate attempt to get back to some of the things that had worked well in the past.
Pegasus and Resurrection Ship I are my favorite two episodes of BSG (didn't care as much for the third part). But it didn't feel like they were doing the same thing here or even attempting to. We weren't looking at a mutiny there in season 2 and I don't believe they've ever done a story involving anyone trying to seize control of Galactica before this.

The timing of this felt right with the increased cooperation with this faction of cylons and the direction Adama seemed willing to consider and pursue with them.

If there was any issue I had with this arc, it's one I've often had when watching BSG: I wish they'd run a little longer with it before having Adama regain control.

[James]

I'll indulge in this briefly. I just don't have the energy for to's and fro's these days, but what the hell.



I think the overall arc is less problematic than the particulars, and in fairness, Adama is one of those characters who have suffered the least, compared to the likes of Six, Starbuck, Baltar, never mind any number of minor characters who were given far more attention that they could possibly handle. What I meant by Adama being a drama queen is how often he has flown into overly emotional temper tantrums. I can't even remember how many times he has denounced Starbuck as his "daughter", tried to choke her, held a gun to her head, screamed at her, kicked the chair out from under her, asked her to shoot him, etc, etc, always playing the exact same hysterical beat, which only served to undermine the relationship they had tried so hard to build, and eventually became nothing more than a predictably transparent setup for an attempted emotional reunion, when he professes his fundamental belief in her... until the next temper tantrum, which Olmos played in an increasingly ham-fisted fashion. I thought for sure I saw him drooling and spitting in a recent run-in with Tigh, who has probably been on the receiving end of his Britney Spears-like mood swings as often as Starbuck has.

For me it felt true, that he was this myriad of human instincts, sucesses and failures, but never quite as most writers like to play them. A flaw in a hero likes to present itself in something quite constant and cool, be it a fear of snakes in the 80s or being hooked to drugs like a certain doctor in the noughties. With Adama, you're never quite sure whether he'll swing. I've always liked that about the character. He is a brilliant leader, yet his - and the fleets - own worse enemy, and these flaws are not always played out in his favour with the audience. Sometimes he is just a stupid, sad old man - I like that. And part of me is willing to let him be like that given the burden of responsibility he carries - very likely to break many men, let alone old washed out veterans like Adama.

I think its a subjective thing.


How dare you, sir?! I thought the Pegasus 2-parter, and specifically the Pegasus episode itself, was by far and away the finest piece of TV sci-fi ever created. The mutiny seemed like an attempt to make lightning strike twice, and as a far more deliberate attempt to get back to some of the things that had worked well in the past. Suddenly, Starbuck had snapped out of her state of depression, and was kicking ass and taking names. Lee was back in action mode, touching on some of the old relationship/approval issues with his father, and I think they even shared a kiss again... Lee and Starbuck, that is. :) We also had the tried and tested shall-we-fire-on-a-friendly-ship beat, shall-we-rape-Sharon, etc, etc. Not that any of it was outright bad, it just felt a little forced, and although for the most part extremely well directed, I did have a bit of a giggle about the scene where Adama walks through Galactica's hallways with a gun, while depressed and suicidal crew members are strewn about the place. It was just so cheesy, I felt like I was watching Babylon 5 for a moment.

Don't get me wrong, I love Pegasus. It was shocking stuff. I'm not a big fan on making big cross comparisons - all I know is there wasn't a moment where I wasn't transfixed through the mutiny. Perhaps because the mutiny was so jarringly intimate. Pegasus was very much "them vs us". Even though both sides had legitimate perspectives, you were very much entrenched with Adama. To some extent, the same was true here, but we've followed Zarek and Gatea since season one, you knew where this was going and I think the audience was pulled into that personal edge. That was something that invigorated the drama. How many other shows really put the crew so brutally against each other? It was solid stuff which rewarded the viewer. I didn't mind the Lee and SB pieces - in fact, I enjoyed them. Perhaps a little nostalgia, perhaps because it was just so cathartic to have someone like Starbuck just kicking away the morals and ideology playing hardnose. Which again, for believability sake, I don't doubt that depressed, wiped out SB would go into killing machine mode if you started violating her space, and Galactica is her space.

Again, all subjective. I found it as enjoyable as Pegasus. As for the rape. I think it was a justified line. That's what an ideology those specific Pegasus boys were behind to demoralise, crush and dominate. No surprise that would be their mantra. Rape is a form of power focused aggression. Didn't feel out of place to hear that threat when the anti-cylon boys go back to those they'd had an issue with prior.


Yeah, but everyone loves lightsabers. I don't think anyone is going to single out Adama's histrionics as a particular worthwhile or iconic aspect of the show.

I think they will. I think Adama's being played extremely well throughout pulling from the imperfections of the original (well, from the original's pilot, after that he appeared infallible). I think Adama's been one of the strengths of the show.

Where I will agree with you, so far as a cross comparison with television goes, I think the alcohol dependency story line, though real enough in the show, has been played too often on TV. They're going to have to do something pretty special with it as at the moment its colour that really doesn't feel has any texture to it.


I wanted to love it, I really did, but as surprising as the timing was, it just didn't feel shocking to me at all, considering we hadn't really seen Dee for the better part of two seasons, and how they had undermined her character when we last saw her on a regular basis. For me, there just wasn't enough of an emotional attachment to the character to really care at this point, and that's what you need for a moment like this to really resonate. Remember when Boomer shot herself in the face? That to me had far more emotional impact than this did. Or what about the original "why" morgue scene with the dead Boomer and Adama, which was only made even more intriguing by the time Adama came face to face, quite literally, with another Sharon who repeated that very qeustion question to him. Sadly, the potential brilliance of this moment was completely undermined by the time Moore put out a podcast in which he admitted that he had no idea what this meant, and that it just seemed like a "cool thing to do". This was the first time I really started to suspect that the emperor wasn't wearing any clothes. So with that in mind, Dee's suicide felt more like the show making a statement about their creative "bravery" than really playing it for the sake of the storyline. Same with Gaeta, who should never have been much more than a glorified extra. On some level, I'd quite like to listen to the podcast and hear Moore's excuses for that one, but I haven't been able to listen to them since his irritating wife started making regular appearances, and I must confess, I feel myself slipping into sort of a Chris Brown mindset whenever I hear the sound of her voice. :)


I think there are some things in art that are innate; that you go with your gut even when you've not looked at the broader implications. It's a legitimate way to work. Personally, so far as storytelling goes, with BSG, yes, I'm not keen on story's that set themselves up as having secrets and mysteries when those secrets and mysteries technically don't exist, but are being written co-currently. There is another part of me which feels "hey is that so bad if the product in the end is so good?"

I think with Dee, yes there was a shock factor, but I think there was a legitimate need to play some very stark and blunt reactions to the loss of hope. To me it worked. On television because we are nearly always privy to intimacy through our virtual omnipotent pedestal, we see the track to sucicide. It was nice to be placed on the other side of the wall, just to experience the shock everyone else would.

So yes, I think Moore does sometimes goes with his gut, and I think many writers, artists, musicians and poets do - and then see retrospectively where their instincts took them. Less satisfying for the audience, I do admit. I doesn't mean they are wildly stabbing in the dark, often its simply because time doesn't allow for contemplation and decisions have to occasionally run on instinct, and sometimes that instinct really delivers.


Like I said at the time, it was clear to me that the show was dead, creatively speaking, by season 3, when the viewer exodus started, and the decision was made to wrap it up. In their defence, they have managed to somewhat steady the ship since the truly appalling season 3, and if they can avoid an X-Files ending, they might just have have done enough to be remembered as one of the best sci-fi shows of all time. But before they lost their way, they had a real shot at being one of the best shows of all time, of any genre.


What I have never agreed with is that objectively there was a downturn in quality in season three. You can't simply place ratings as a definitive statement to quality. They do not sit in tandem.

You get very few shows that are intense, gritty, unrelenting that will show an upward trend in the viewing figures unless they revamp to a more mainstream construct. As in all things, the initial impact takes wear too. The sparkle falls aside and it gets harder and harder to give a zest to an audience that is getting more associated with the nature of the beast.

So in the end, people can drop off from watching a show not because its bad but for a variety of other natural factors related to the nature of the beast. Quality is always very hard to quantify.

I'm not saying that it WAS definitively as good as season two, otherwise I'd be falling foul of my own words. Personally, I think it was the same. There were some duff episodes in the middle of season two, there were some wishy washy ones in season three. Both had some fantastic stories and characters as well. So really, as objective as I can be, I don't see a loss in quality in season three, and I don't think viewers are the answer to the question - otherwise we can point to many great cancelled shows that lost viewers but few rarely consider a drop in quality.


For instance, Baltar and head-Six used to be such a strong part of the show, which has fallen by the way side. It's quite clear that they ran out of ideas for both of them, and weren't really prepared to address what the deal was with her being in his head in the first place, simply because they didn't know.

I'm going to counter point some of these. Not saying you're wrong, but offering a different perspective.

Baltar and Head-six: honestly, I never felt they'd run out of ideas, simply were looking for new directions for Baltar - and there were a lot of other sixes. Taking Six away for me IMO gave Baltar new direction. Love the pair (especially in this episode), but IMHO there was sense to the madness.


Starbuck was completely de-fanged by the time they put in her silly hair extensions and had her hug her arch-nemesis Tigh on New Caprica, and they killed any interesting aspect of her relationship with Lee, when they actually tried to play out the romantic aspect, again on New Caprica, which in many ways was where they really wrecked the show.


Well again, we disagree. My counter perspective was that New Caprica was a great, refreshing and daring move for the show, keeping it away from formula. I do agree Lee and Starbuck were dull. Not OOC, just dull.


I'm sure that's absolutely true for the writers, but clearly not for the audiences, as Cavil's screen time was almost inversely proportional to the ratings. The same happened on Lost, a show which completely ran out of ideas in a very similar fashion. Suddenly, it was so much more about Ben, a character who resembles Cavil (and one of us is spelling that wrong), and who, for better or for worse, brings many of the same things to the table. Mostly for worse. Cavil as the big baddie seems like something on an afterthought.

Probably me spelling it wrong. :)

Though I think your point is again not entirely fairly addressed. Even if ratings were a proven counterflow to Cavil (which I think would be very hard to prove), audience numbers doesn't advocate quality, unless quality has a control we can place it against. What is good TV doesn't necessarily equate to popular TV particularly on the forth year of a show when ratings - more often than not - hit a decline.

Point being, I don't think Cavil was a bad move, I think he was - is - very interesting. I think quite honestly Caprica Six's story as alluded to in the end of the second series was a show unto its own which was too far removed from the fleet. I love Caprica Six in season two, I love Cavil. I can't agree there was a bad move by the writers shifting.


Let's agree that mine can best be certified as right. ;) I don't begrudge you your appreciation for what they have done since season 3, but I flat-out said at the end of season 2 that they had wrecked the show, and sure enough, they started hemorrhaging viewers from the premiere of season 3, right through to the inevitable announcement that the show was ending. Which, I'd like to point out, was repeatedly denied by Moore. There was even a thread around here which had the cancellation title changed after Moore's denials, as I recall. And be honest, as much as you still like the show, do you really feel it's as interesting and intriuging as it used to be?

The difference between us IMHO, is I'm not trying to justify my appreciation of the show (and my occasional dislike for choices in the show) as equating to some genuine trend. And even if it did, even if the average Galactica watcher didn't like the direction of an episode, does that make it bad? Where's the quantifier? How it compares as it started? Whether the majority prefer it? Who are the majority? What sort of shows do they watch? I just don't think this equation between popularity and quality are so simple, and certainly don't qualify either of our opinion.

As for the change in the thread - yes, that's our policy, to follow statements not speculation. The board tries to run as a news outlet not a blog! :)

Yeah, it's not a perfect show. I think Ellen was a very bad choice. It ruined the whole death and I think that was a big mistake. They've made load of what IMO are mistakes (the final 5 all being main characters didn't seem necessary to me, the fixation on SB and Lee... the many failed Lee single episode storylines...), but compared to 99% of the shows out there, BSG is as good as most television appears to me.

But that's me. And if I'm happy that's wonderful. I wish I could share it with you!

[mr.happy]

I'll indulge in this briefly. I just don't have the energy for to's and fro's these days, but what the hell.<russian accent>I must break you.</russian accent>


For me it felt true, that he was this myriad of human instincts, sucesses and failures, but never quite as most writers like to play them. A flaw in a hero likes to present itself in something quite constant and cool, be it a fear of snakes in the 80s or being hooked to drugs like a certain doctor in the noughties. With Adama, you're never quite sure whether he'll swing. I've always liked that about the character. He is a brilliant leader, yet his - and the fleets - own worse enemy, and these flaws are not always played out in his favour with the audience. Sometimes he is just a stupid, sad old man - I like that. And part of me is willing to let him be like that given the burden of responsibility he carries - very likely to break many men, let alone old washed out veterans like Adama.Sure, the concept itself is sensible enough, but as has so often been the case with this show, the execution began to fall below the show's own high standards. I think it's a great idea to have a supposedly complex character like Adama drive the bus, my concern was with how they kept playing the same old tempter tantrum card to the detriment of characters and various relationships that deserved better. The first time he denounced Kara as his daugter felt like a real "whoah" moment, but by the 7th or 8th time, it became impossible to believe anybody who really had the sort of relationship the writers wanted us to believe they had, would act in this way. It was just silly melodrama. It was similar to how alcholic rage was the old go-to card when writing Tigh... Before they turned him into one of the better characters on the show. As was the case with Six, Baltar, Starbuck, etc, etc, it seemed like they blew their creative load with Adama too soon, and I feel fairly confident in saying that was why so many "extras" suddenly got so much more of the spotlight. Moore himself has often commented on how difficult the team found it to fill 20 episodes seasons.


Don't get me wrong, I love Pegasus. It was shocking stuff. I'm not a big fan on making big cross comparisons - all I know is there wasn't a moment where I wasn't transfixed through the mutiny. Perhaps because the mutiny was so jarringly intimate. Pegasus was very much "them vs us". Even though both sides had legitimate perspectives, you were very much entrenched with Adama. To some extent, the same was true here, but we've followed Zarek and Gatea since season one, you knew where this was going and I think the audience was pulled into that personal edge. That was something that invigorated the drama. How many other shows really put the crew so brutally against each other?I'm gonna say Jackass... again. :) I didn't hate the mutiny, it just didn't engage me the way many older episodes have done, but it was certainly one of the highlights of this season.


It was solid stuff which rewarded the viewer. I didn't mind the Lee and SB pieces - in fact, I enjoyed them. Perhaps a little nostalgia...Yes, that's what I meant about them getting back to the things that used to work. And it certainly did work, but it was a little bit like the ending of JLU, where Team Timm finally had Superman cut loose on Darkseid. Deliberate fan service, which could never adequately compensate for getting it wrong for so long.


As for the rape. I think it was a justified line. That's what an ideology those specific Pegasus boys were behind to demoralise, crush and dominate. No surprise that would be their mantra. Rape is a form of power focused aggression. Didn't feel out of place to hear that threat when the anti-cylon boys go back to those they'd had an issue with prior.Sure, rape is scary stuff, and that was one of the most memorable scenes from Pegasus, if I can say that without it sounding completely wrong. It was one of those jaw-dropping moments where I was really engrossed in the story and even felt a little bit concerned about how far they were prepared to go. The moment when Tyrol and Helo ran from the flight deck was probably the only time I've ever been virtually pressed up against my TV screen screaming "run, run, kill, kill!" at the TV... except for maybe last year's Wimbledon final. There was absolutely nothing in the mutiny story that really engaged me, and the rape remark just felt cheap this time. As in; really? You're doing that again? That's all you've got? The fact that they didn't play it any further than a throw-away remark not only made it completely ineffective, it almost felt like they'd forgotten they'd already done that with Pegasus.


Where I will agree with you, so far as a cross comparison with television goes, I think the alcohol dependency story line, though real enough in the show, has been played too often on TV. They're going to have to do something pretty special with it as at the moment its colour that really doesn't feel has any texture to it.Yes, every time Adama pops some pills, take a swig, or outdraws Tigh when someone asks for a flask, I'm wondering what the heck they're doing here. Is it just texture, or at they really going to let him have an alcoholic breakdown at some stage? Starbuck better make herself scarce when that happens.


I think there are some things in art that are innate; that you go with your gut even when you've not looked at the broader implications. It's a legitimate way to work.Look, I'm all for monkeys throwing feces at a blank canvas and calling it art, but if it doesn't end up looking like something, I'm just not going to be very impressed, and to drop the ball as badly as that... well, the feces didn't even end up on the canvas. Still, at least Moore was honest about it. <shrugs>


Personally, so far as storytelling goes, with BSG, yes, I'm not keen on story's that set themselves up as having secrets and mysteries when those secrets and mysteries technically don't exist, but are being written co-currently. There is another part of me which feels "hey is that so bad if the product in the end is so good?"With the "why" issue, unfortunately it wasn't good. It looked good, until you realized there was nothing there. Absolutely nothing. And even worse, what it did was undermine, what at the time was a pretty big issue, that being how the Cylons are connected, how they communicate and experience other models, etc, etc. That and the glowing sex spines has always irritated me. It felt like they were doing something deliberate with those spines. It was even used in various promotions for the show, and suddenly they just dropped it. Why? Because they had no idea what they were doing with it in the first place. I remember on the official BSG board at the time, there were tons of good ideas about what it might be, and what it might mean. My own personal, somewhat facetious suggestion was that, if nothing else, it certainly made a handy Cylon detector. :)


What I have never agreed with is that objectively there was a downturn in quality in season three. You can't simply place ratings as a definitive statement to quality. They do not sit in tandem.When you have a show like BSG, which claims to be a smart show with some of the smartest viewers around, I think you can read something from as massive a viewer exodus like this, and judging by the comments on various forums at the time, this was the reason why people left. Now, you can certainly say that those people just didn't get how great the show had suddenly become, that's a matter of personal opinion, I guess. One man's heavy-handed Iraq analogy may be another man's TV masterpiece, but from a producer's perspective, taking the kind of ratings hit they did means budget cuts, it means network interference, and ultimately it means cancellation, so that's another aspect of wrecking the show.


You get very few shows that are intense, gritty, unrelenting that will show an upward trend in the viewing figures unless they revamp to a more mainstream construct.I don't think that's true. This hasn't been the case for any number of gritty cable shows like The Shield, The Sopranos, etc, etc. If anything, it was BSG's revamp that killed it. The New Caprica storyline, despite what Moore will tell you, was a network mandated semi-reboot intended to tie in with their massive cross network, multimedia promotion specifically to appeal to a mainstream audience and to attract new viewers with a storyline they could more easily relate to. Incredibly, they didn't manage to add a single net viewer, instead they lost close to a million. It really was one of the most astonishing ratings collapses you're ever likely to see. It was like the TV equivalent of going to clean the car before trying to sell it, and then accidentally setting it on fire instead.


So in the end, people can drop off from watching a show not because its bad but for a variety of other natural factors related to the nature of the beast. Quality is always very hard to quantify.It wasn't a gradual drop, the ratings just went right off a cliff, and then continued to gradually drop throughout season 3. We can go back and forth about what quality means, but it's quite clear that it was a perceived drop in quality that led most people to leave, and it comes back to what I keep saying about them being out of ideas. The show and so many of its storylines had momentum that was simply cut short, because the writers didn't seem to know where to go with that momentum. That's just not good, and it can't be justified by suggesting they needed to shake things up.


Baltar and Head-six: honestly, I never felt they'd run out of ideas, simply were looking for new directions for Baltar - and there were a lot of other sixes. Taking Six away for me IMO gave Baltar new direction. Love the pair (especially in this episode), but IMHO there was sense to the madness.To me, it would have made much more sense to make a point out of taking her away. There didn't seem to be any. Well, they initially teased that there might be, but again, never got around to following up on. Again, it seemed like they didn't really know where they were going with any of it. Same with Hera. Remember when she used to be "special"? Another intriguing point they had gone to great lengths to set up, but which went absolutely nowhere as well. You just can't cover all these holes with yet another Adama temper tantrum.


Though I think your point is again not entirely fairly addressed. Even if ratings were a proven counterflow to Cavil (which I think would be very hard to prove)...Heh, I didn't mean that as literally as it may have sounded, I'm just saying that Cavil didn't seem to inspire the audience, like you suggested, but I'm sure the writers were thrilled to have finally come up with a new idea, but I was generally pretty disappointed about how lame the once terrifying Cylons suddenly turned out to be, even long before the reveal of the final five. Remember when "And they have a plan" was supposed to mean something? For a long time, the show gave the viewers the impression that the Cylons were pulling all kinds of strings, but it eventually turned out that there was no plan beyond the initial nuke attack. Once again, the writers had set something up for which they had no real sense of where they where going. Creatibely, you can only get away with following your gut for so long. Eventually, you have to deliver. Unless you're Stephen King, I suppose.


The difference between us IMHO, is I'm not trying to justify my appreciation of the show (and my occasional dislike for choices in the show) as equating to some genuine trend. And even if it did, even if the average Galactica watcher didn't like the direction of an episode, does that make it bad?If that perception mirrors my own, then yes. :)


As for the change in the thread - yes, that's our policy, to follow statements not speculation. The board tries to run as a news outlet not a blog!It wasn't a complaint, I was just saying Moore was full of youknowwhat.


Yeah, it's not a perfect show. I think Ellen was a very bad choice. It ruined the whole death and I think that was a big mistake. They've made load of what IMO are mistakes (the final 5 all being main characters didn't seem necessary to meYes, once again, they seemed to just throw the final five thing onto a handful of characters they didn't have any other ideas for. There was no real impact to any of them being final fivers, except maybe Tigh, due to his close relationship with Adama. I mean, Anders and Tory? Come on? Ellen the final "big" reveal? Again and again it just seems like they're out of good ideas.


BSG is as good as most television appears to me.That's never been how I look at things. I set much higher standards for certain shows than I do others. It doesn't bother me nearly as much when 30 Rock isn't as funny from week to week, as it does to see a show as once mighty as BSG fall and become a shadow of itself. Although, like I said, they've at least sort of pulled it out of the crapper with the second half of this season.


But that's me. And if I'm happy that's wonderful. I wish I could share it with you!I'm always happy. It's right there in the name. Particularly when I get to complain. ;)

[The Clown Prince]

We're down to the final four!

Episode 4.17- "Someone to Watch Over Me"
Friday February 27 at 10:00pm

Episode Description: Kara tries to reconcile her identity with her grisly find on Earth while the Cylons on Galactica want to charge Boomer with treason.

[Rook]

Damn poor Athena.
Yeesh, talk about getting the shaft, ouch. Have we learned our lesson Chief? Now, about Cally's suicide.

As of now, I dont think Galactica has any fight left in her. She cant even handle a close range jump from another ship. Kind of hurts a little to see her like that.
Roslin is gong down as well.

[Lord Dalek]

Another theory of who's the real "dying leader": maybe its Galactica itself?

[Ragebot]

OMFG...can anybody confirm if that's indeed Roslin herself taking her own pulse at the end?

[mr.happy]

OMFG...can anybody confirm if that's indeed Roslin herself taking her own pulse at the end?Heh... no. :)

[The Clown Prince]

Looking ahead to what's left of Battlestar Galatica there are 3 episodes left and 4 hours to tell it in.

Part one of the series finale (episode 19) begins next week (March 13th) with part 2 (episode 20) and a "bonus" episode comprising of part 3 of Ron Moore's written 3 hour finale which will finish up on March 20th.

But tonight we have....

Episode 4.18- "Islanded in a Stream of Stars"
Friday, March 7th at 10:00pm

Episode Description: While Helo copes with the abduction of Hera, Galactica's damages overwhelm the crew's repair efforts.

[RedKing52]

Another theory of who's the real "dying leader": maybe its Galactica itself?

Huh...that's actually a very, very good idea; I like it.

[mr.happy]

Another theory of who's the real "dying leader": maybe its Galactica itself?It's a little too on-the-nose, though, isn't it? Not that I'd put it past the show at this stage, which now has 3 episodes to wrap up about a trillion loose ends, and there's no sense that we're building up momentum and heading towards such a thing. In fact, with the massive budget cuts, much of this season has felt like filler episodes. I hope they've saved some cash for the finale.

There really wasn't much to get excited about this week. Adama had another one of his exaggerated drama queen moments, though he was smart enough to do it in private this time, and Helo was saddled with an emotional scene that was too far out of his comfort zone. That was some of the worst acting I've seen on the show since Lucy Lawless was a regular.

I was very disppointed to find that Roslin didn't actually die last week. Good to see Boomer get some more screentime, though. She's been sorely missed this season, and although it was only a little detail, I liked that Baltar spent just a few minutes actually being a scientist again. His faux-Messiah, man-of-the-people/friend-to-the-cylons role hasn't been interesting for a looong time.

Looks like they finally remembered that Hera was supposed to be a big deal.

[The Clown Prince]

In fact, with the massive budget cuts, much of this season has felt like filler episodes. I hope they've saved some cash for the finale.

Man, is that why we haven't seen a lot of space action, Centurions, and Raiders like we have in seasons 1-3? All of that has been really missed by me.

I understand the slow episodes have to build towards the bigger episodes, and Ron Moore has said this series is about the characters, but the real fun sci-fi elements, again, the space fights and Centurions have just disappeared. To me this final 11 and in fact all of season 4 has felt different because of it. But that's just me I guess.

Is there an article or news piece that specifically mentions Sci Fi cutting costs on production for season 4?

If it was a simple matter of budgeting your cash for the season, then I hope they saved most of their cash for the finale episodes. Because I want to see Centurions fighting in some way, Raider/Viper fights, and of course I've been crossing my fingers that we'll see the classic Centurions one last time.

EDIT: One thing I wanted to add has been the pacing of these 4.5 episodes. It's been very clear for a lot of them that there has been a lot edited out for running time purposes. What really irritates me about Sci Fi is that David Eick and Ron Moore were talking about possibly having some of these 4.5 episodes be 90 minutes long because the scripts for these episodes had a lot in them and they did film that stuff. But Sci Fi clearly has not allowed that and wanted reruns of other series to not be interupted.

Though, from what I've been reading at this site here (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/), it sounds like the 4.5 DVD will quite possibly have a bunch of episodes that will be extended and have plenty of deleted scenes to go along with them. Supposedly Ron Moore's 3 hour finale will be longer when the DVD's come out. The Digital Bits has been hearing that that set could be out by April (next month!) to coincide with the Caprica pilot DVD release.

EDIT Again: It looks like there was a scene with Tyrol cut for time purposes that had him in the brig for his actions in helping Boomer escape. Bear McCreary in his blog mentions this scene will be in the extended cut of the episode for the DVD.

[mr.happy]

Man, is that why we haven't seen a lot of space action, Centurions, and Raiders like we have in seasons 1-3? All of that has been really missed by me.Yep, space battles and Centurions cost a lot of money. They've also had far less location shoots. In fact, I can barely think of any, and even the CGI extended flight deck hasn't been used much either. It's funny, during the first couple of seasons, I often felt that I could do without the regular sci-fi trappings, because the characters were so well handled at the time, but considering how repetitive and uninspired that aspect has been over the last couple of seasons, I've ended up missing the space battles, and not just for the sake of getting my explosion kicks. I think it's been detrimental to Starbuck's character. Her one defining characteristic was that she was a Viper pilot. I even remember someone around here once saying, it wouldn't be right for he to die anywhere else but in a Viper cockpit, which I completely agree with. Now, you could argue that this is exactly what happened, and that what we're seeing here is the new Starbuck, but to me, that just underlines how mishandled her character has become, because let's be honest, nobody really likes the new Starbuck.


Is there an article or news piece that specifically mentions Sci Fi cutting costs on production for season 4?It was mentioned in various articles and blogs at the time when it looked like season 3 might be the end, and it's still eluded to in various reviews of this season. Although no exact numbers were disclosed, the general consensus seemed to be that the only reason they got a 4th season was if they could do it on a shoe-string budget, and that the show would still be produced at a loss, which could hopefully be recuperated on DVD. And having been quite outspoken about how difficult they'd all found it to top themselves with new space battles week after week, Moore was supposedly quite happy to do a more character based season. Some have even suggested that Moore directing an episode himself was another budget cutting measure.

[The Clown Prince]

Yep, space battles and Centurions cost a lot of money. They've also had far less location shoots. In fact, I can barely think of any, and even the CGI extended flight deck hasn't been used much either. It's funny, during the first couple of seasons, I often felt that I could do without the regular sci-fi trappings, because the characters were so well handled at the time, but considering how repetitive and uninspired that aspect has been over the last couple of seasons, I've ended up missing the space battles, and not just for the sake of getting my explosion kicks. I think it's been detrimental to Starbuck's character. Her one defining characteristic was that she was a Viper pilot. I even remember someone around here once saying, it wouldn't be right for he to die anywhere else but in a Viper cockpit, which I completely agree with. Now, you could argue that this is exactly what happened, and that what we're seeing here is the new Starbuck, but to me, that just underlines how mishandled her character has become, because let's be honest, nobody really likes the new Starbuck.

It was mentioned in various articles and blogs at the time when it looked like season 3 might be the end, and it's still eluded to in various reviews of this season. Although no exact numbers were disclosed, the general consensus seemed to be that the only reason they got a 4th season was if they could do it on a shoe-string budget, and that the show would still be produced at a loss, which could hopefully be recuperated on DVD. And having been quite outspoken about how difficult they'd all found it to top themselves with new space battles week after week, Moore was supposedly quite happy to do a more character based season. Some have even suggested that Moore directing an episode himself was another budget cutting measure.

Well, if it's a shoe string budget they've had, and Moore and company planned ahead to the finale, then hopefully all the money for the big special effects was saved for this. I just need my Centurion/Raider/space battle fix. :D I do like the character driven aspects of the show. Very few shows it seems do this, but at the same time I really miss what we've had and seen in seasons 1-3. This whole 4th season has just felt different without all that. But the question becomes depending on who you ask, is it a good thing or bad thing?

But my hope of seeing classic Centurions one last time has me excited after I had it pointed out to me because I somehow wasn't paying attention to the design, but Boomer past old school Cylon Raiders when she got to the Colony. I'm hoping, I'm hoping, I'm hoping. :)

You mention Starbuck as your character that was mishandled, and I would have to add Baltar to that list. It seems after his trial and his turn to religion, they just didn't know what to do with his character. He was big enough that he had to be in the show, but just didn't know quite how. I would have taken more Tom Zarek any day than all the Baltar stuff we've been given. His character was the crime of the series that we didn't get to see more of. But Baltar this season... I just hope that by the time the finale ends, that something grand happens with him. Something to justify putting us the viewers through watching his crap. While he was forced to do much of what he did on New Caprica and his trial proved that, he never answered for his crime of giving a nuke to that "6" that was abused on Pegasus. She used to kill A LOT of people. Baltar is single handedly responsible for that and I think the writers have forgotten that and he'll never have to answer for it. But I could be surprised over the final 3 hours left of the show.

And while we still have the 2 hour "The Plan" to look forward to later this year, it'll be more Cylon backstory covered there and nothing in the present.

[mr.happy]

Well, if it's a shoe string budget they've had, and Moore and company planned ahead to the finale, then hopefully all the money for the big special effects was saved for this. I just need my Centurion/Raider/space battle fix. :DYes, I'm sure they have something big planned for the finale.


But my hope of seeing classic Centurions one last time has me excited after I had it pointed out to me because I somehow wasn't paying attention to the design, but Boomer past old school Cylon Raiders when she got to the Colony. I'm hoping, I'm hoping, I'm hoping. :)I would be surprised if we don't get another look at the classic Centurions.


You mention Starbuck as your character that was mishandled, and I would have to add Baltar to that list. It seems after his trial and his turn to religion, they just didn't know what to do with his character.Oh, absolutely. He was certainly high on my list, and I've had a whinge about him in most of my recent posts.


I would have taken more Tom Zarek any day than all the Baltar stuff we've been given. His character was the crime of the series that we didn't get to see more of.I agree to the extent that I didn't think the storylines he was usually involved with were particularly good, they often reminded me of how the Bajoran political aspects of DS9 used to drag that show down, but I did think he was an interesting character they could have done more with. I guess part of the problem was that he in so many ways mirrored Baltar, and they were probably often struggling to find enough interesting things for him to do.


But Baltar this season... I just hope that by the time the finale ends, that something grand happens with him. Something to justify putting us the viewers through watching his crap. While he was forced to do much of what he did on New Caprica and his trial proved that, he never answered for his crime of giving a nuke to that "6" that was abused on Pegasus. She used to kill A LOT of people. Baltar is single handedly responsible for that and I think the writers have forgotten that and he'll never have to answer for it. But I could be surprised over the final 3 hours left of the show.You know, I'd more or less forgotten about that myself. I remember at the time I was furious about how they cut Pegasix's storyline short to semi-reboot the show with the horrendous New Caprica storyline, but I always expected that they would at least get back to the issue about who gave her the nuke, but somehow I don't see that happening in the next 3 hours.


And while we still have the 2 hour "The Plan" to look forward to later this year, it'll be more Cylon backstory covered there and nothing in the present.Really? They're re-visiting "the plan"? Assuming the title refers to what turned out to be the Cylons' lack of a plan. I hadn't heard that. It's not going to be another one of those internet things, is it?

[The Clown Prince]

Really? They're re-visiting "the plan"? Assuming the title refers to what turned out to be the Cylons' lack of a plan. I hadn't heard that. It's not going to be another one of those internet things, is it?

Yeah, it's called "The Plan." Ron Moore didn't want it aired until after the finale because what's talked about in it would have spoiled what we've seen so far and may spoil aspects of the finale.

It filmed last August/September or somewhere around there after production of the series had ended. From Wikipedia....

Supposedly it'll air in June and the synopsis goes "The movie begins just after The Destruction of the Twelve Colonies, with two Cylon agents discussing the problem of the remaining humans, both on the planets, and those who have escaped into space. The movie shows the initial storyline of the reimagined Battlestar Galactica from the Cylon point of view."

IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1286130/) lists the main cast of Edward James Olmos, Tricia Helfer, Grace Park, Kate Vernon, Michael Trucco, Michael Hogan, Callum Keith Rennie, Aaron Douglas, and Dean Stockwell.

[RedKing52]

You mention Starbuck as your character that was mishandled, and I would have to add Baltar to that list. It seems after his trial and his turn to religion, they just didn't know what to do with his character.

Yeah, Baltar's character arc, while interesting, hasn't quite been consistent. He went from being a slimy, duplicitous, and conniving piece of work in Seasons 1 and 2 (thus making him my favorite character at the time:p) to what my associates like to call 'Crazy Jesus Baltar'. I'm still curious, of course, as to how he'll play into the series finale.

[James]

I think Baltar's character has been well handled throughout. Where I do agree is dramatically, I don't think he carried the impact he had in seasons 1-3. To be fair, that's not entirely surprising, after the climax of season 3, where was there to take the character that would move his story arc onwards yet remain interesting?

Baltar has always been a character on a religious arc, so it stands to reason that events would finally propel him to such a situation. And I think it was handled correctly. It started off as a place of protection, but through his own changing experiences (and a little Six guidance) he found a perfectly plausible position. He's a smart, charismatic adaptable, manipulative man. Cult leaders tend to be made of such stuff.

But yes, so far as the show went, apart from still being a great actor and a lovely humour piece, the cult arc never matched to the rest of the show but I never felt it was intended to. The show moved to a different focus in season four and Baltar wasn't part of that focus. I think also they'd all the dramatic conflict they could do with him and the rest of the cast. After you've had him screw up New Caprica and then stand trial and escape, it doesn't surprise me his role would become less openly antagonistic within the players. I think what they did was prudent, logical and contextually relevant - but certainly not half as satisfying as his role in seasons one, two and three.

As for this last episode. I liked it. It didn't feel soapy as the last two (Ellen's return and the Boomer sex scene played like something I'd expect in Eastenders (Brit reference - look it up)) and I found it quite satisfying.

My only real grumble was the Galactica formula of having Adama oppose an issue, before reconciling 10 minutes before the end and U-turning. One could argue that we always knew he would U-Turn (he didn't exactly have many options) so it was the journey we were watching - but I didn't think much of his journey.

That being said, I did find an episode being tied to his ship and the difficulty in releasing it poignant and important to the character. The artifice to do this just felt a little old ground.

But beyond that good character drama. Great acting, lovely moments, good pacing and great atmosphere (I felt that ship was falling to pieces!).

[The Clown Prince]

The penultimate episode of Battlestar Galatica airs tonight. Part 1 (hour 1) of Ron Moore's 3 hour finale begins....

Episode 4.19- "Daybreak Part 1"
Friday, March 13 at 10:00pm

Episode Description: Adama calls for volunteers for a final mission.

[GWOtaku]

I have no idea why the penultimate episode spent so much time showing the pasts of the characters. Why now? Why at this stage, when there is so much to resolve?

It's also far, far too late to introduce yet another random Gaius Baltar plot. Who cares whether his cult gets a seat on the quorum? They spend a couple scenes on it and then it gets dropped in favor of the main plot.

So it all comes down to this, Galactica's final mission. I'll be honest, I'm both excited and worried. Excited to see what happens to everyone, but very worried because BSG now has exactly two hours to explain everything. Why Hera matters, the meaning of the prophicies and symbolsim, the issue of what the hell Starbuck is, what Baltar's role in the whole mess well be, what the deal is with Baltar's ghost six, who the "dying leader" is (Galactica is a good theory), and ultimately what the future holds for both humans and cylons at the end of this operation. That might not even be a complete list.

That's a huge undertaking considering all of the mysteries it's put forth, and to my dismay it has deferred on resolving most of them. It's telling that recently they spent an episode having Anders conveniently ranting off Final Five backstory as quickly as he possibly could. My great fear is that they'll spend two hours focusing on the tree in the forest, sending the show out on a bang while leaving too many plot threads unresolved or else open to interpretation. In that event, it would be a letdown that the upcoming movie won't begin to make up for.

Here's hoping BSG can pull it off.

[RedKing52]

I hope so too; next week will prove once and for all whether or not they should have stretched things out for one more season or if they were right to end it now.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Is it just me, or did anyone else get "deleted scene" vibes from this episode?

[Rook]

Red line of truth, now we know who is truly loyal.

Im laughing so hard that the Cylons cants tell that she is writing notes. It took all but 1 minute for the Galactica crew to recognize it.

"The more things change, the more they stay the same. Hey, got a recon mission where someone need ta hand their ass over the edge and wait for a bite? Send Racetrack and Skulls!"

"Well, beats sitting in a cell."

...haha

Potential red shirts managed to survive for so long.

[Ragebot]

I liked most of the flashbacks. I did. But they really didn't feel organically connected to this episode at all. Moore should have re-jiggered them into either an earlier episode (much earlier, perhaps - the Roslin backstory would've worked better than the teachers strike business in "Epiphanies"), or done them as webisodes. (But what the hell was the point of the Adama scene at the beginning? I read a suggestion that he was being asked to go to the Armistice Station, but that would just be a backstory non sequitur.)

I think I'm just as cynical about the characterization of Baltar as anyone right now. I have to agree with GWOtaku that the Quorum business was a waste, head-Six seems to have no influence over him anymore, the business with Julius seems arbitrary (unless they reveal in Pt. II that "the only selfless act" he committed had to do with him - or something), and his role as the "chosen protector of God's children" is tenuous as best or flat-out ignored at worst.

As much as I liked his scenes in "The Hub" and "Blood on the Scales" the writers have never adequately followed up on the Roslin/Baltar moments in "Guess What's Coming To Dinner", the fact that he shared visions with Laura and sees "angels" should've taken absolute priority over the cult shenanigans.

Looking at the next episode, I'm expecting it to be satisfying in wrapping up most of the ongoing mysteries (actually I'm postively sure of this - I greatly enjoyed all the revelations in "Sometimes A Great Notion" and "No Exit".) and providing a logical conclusion for the story.

But unfortunately, I'm not expecting it to be a particularly ground-breaking two-hours of television in the league of "Everybody's Waiting", "Not Fade Away", "The Real Folk Blues" or even Ron Moore's own "All Good Things...". Why? Because the story scope is far too limited. A rescue mission of Hera involving a skeleton crew and practically no chance of success seems like an unimaginative way to end a hugely epic though simultaneously character-based story. (Now most of all am I feeling that the revelation of Earth was in many ways a missed opportunity.)

And I can't say that I'm too happy that Ron is lifting the Spacial Anomaly trope from the Voyager rulebook.

[mr.happy]

How many h's in "whimper"? Because it looks like that's how the show is determined to go out.

The idea of padding this episode with utterly irrelevant flashbacks, when there were far more crucial loose ends to attend to, seems symptomatic of the creative mishandling of this show for the last couple of season. Pretentious, arty-farty crap intended to showcase the strength of the cast to draw attention from the weakness of the plotting. As if we needed to spend 6-7 minutes seeing what could possibly have attracted the womanizing Baltar to a gorgeous super-model. Aaaw, she helped his Dad? That's nice. That definitely makes up for explaining the intricacies, and almost supernatural aspect of their relationship.

As for the rest of the episode, as much as I want something to happen, I just can't get excited at the prospect of yet another do-or-die suicide mission, which, unless I missed something, came completely out of nowhere, not just in terms of how they seemed to plug Anders back in for a laugh, and then had him just spit out the coordinates, but also how Adama was suddenly onboard with the idea that Hera must be saved, although those sort of temperamental 180 turns are fairly common for Big Drama Adama. Never one for subtlety, of course there had to be an actual, physical line to cross as well, and I swear, I rolled my eyes so hard I think I strained my optical nerve when Adama once again told Starbuck that she was his daughter. If there's one original element the show has yet to betray, it's "all this has happened before, and will happen again", so next week I fully expect him to disown her, maybe even kick a chair out from under her, when she does something predictably reckless. :)

Here's hoping the final two episodes can repair just some of the damage.


I hope so too; next week will prove once and for all whether or not they should have stretched things out for one more season or if they were right to end it now.Another season? Creatively speaking, they've been treading waters for almost 2 seasons now.


As much as I liked his scenes in "The Hub" and "Blood on the Scales" the writers have never adequately followed up on the Roslin/Baltar moments in "Guess What's Coming To Dinner", the fact that he shared visions with Laura and sees "angels" should've taken absolute priority over the cult shenanigans.Absolutely spot on. There's no question that all this cult nonsense was just a diversion, because they weren't prepared to address any of the big questions yet, and now they're essentially out of time with countless loose ends to tie up.

[Ragebot]

More comments:
Roslin's death is becoming a narrative catch-22. I'm afraid I have to agree with mr. happy that she should have died in "Someone to Watch Over Me" or possibly sooner for it to have had any payoff. I'm certain she'll resurrect/ascend (or something), but it's just going to feel rushed next week. If she's just going to be cured...well, then I have to question why the return of her cancer was necessary at all.
Leoben has been absent since "Blood on the Scales". Looks like his change of heart in "Sometimes a Great Notion" was permanent. Alas.
Looks very unlikely that we're going to be getting a Tyrol/Tory confrontation. Perhaps not too surprising, but they did leave that hook in "No Exit" about their prior relationship.
Head-Six is toothless. Remember back in "Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. I" when she made Baltar hit his head in the washroom on Colonial One and demanded him to go down to Kobol? What happened to her? All her scenes this year have lacked conviction.
Cavil wants to dissect Hera. OK..given that he orchestrated the events leading up to her conception, shouldn't he have some idea about her purpose, or at least be aware that a dissection probably wouldn't reveal much?
Going by recollection, Mary McDonnell's performance in the flashbacks is very inconsistent with her portrayal in the miniseries and "Epiphanies". Somewhere down the line it seems she made a distinct change in what age her character was.
Having a the Final Battle be a rescue mission for Hera is not only a bit disappointing dramatically, It doesn't hold up to dramatic scrutiny either. Going from "forging an alliance with Cylon rebels" to "willing to lay down our lives for a half-human/half-cylon hybrid" is too big a jump for this series to take. Had the Cylons and The Fleet been together for years instead of months, it would have been more palpable.
Either "our world" is on the other side of the gate...er...black hole, or we should otherwise conclude that there is NO connection between the BSGverse and "our" world. Both seem like cop-outs, but I think the latter would be a worse one considering how vocally Moore has commented on the significance of "All Along The Watchtower.
I don't think that the return of Kara's Viper is going to be explained. Remember, it was originally shot (as scene on the season 3 DVD) that she just re-appeared on the Galactica at the end of "Crossroads, pt. II". I don't think the writers intended the return of the Viper to hold as much importance as the return of Kara. (Also, will they explain how she got to Earth in the first place? It seems like they want us to merely infer that she was transported via the maelstrom, and no further explination is required.)Despite my reservations and complaints, I have to say that I've still enjoyed these last couple of episodes, and even if the finale is dissapointing, I won't think all that less of this otherwise excellent series.

[mr.happy]

Roslin's death is becoming a narrative catch-22. I'm afraid I have to agree with mr. happy that she should have died in "Someone to Watch Over Me" or possibly sooner for it to have had any payoff. I'm certain she'll resurrect/ascend (or something), but it's just going to feel rushed next week. If she's just going to be cured...well, then I have to question why the return of her cancer was necessary at all.You think she might actually make it? I suppose it's possible, but I would hope what little faith I have in the writing team isn't misplaced, when I say I would expect her to die eventually. Anything else would be an unbelievable cop-out. This isn't a show that's good at doing happy endings.


Looks very unlikely that we're going to be getting a Tyrol/Tory confrontation. Perhaps not too surprising, but they did leave that hook in "No Exit" about their prior relationship.I think the best we're going to get from Tyrol came in his little chat with Helo, where he seemed to forget he was a Cylon. Or maybe it was just an odd form of Cylon misogyny that he consider the female variety "blow-up dolls", or whatever the exact terms was. I think there's some potential in a reunion with him and Boomer, I don't see any reason to expand on what already seemed like a pointlessly contrieved idea of hooking him up with Tory.


Head-Six is toothless. Remember back in "Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. I" when she made Baltar hit his head in the washroom on Colonial One and demanded him to go down to Kobol? What happened to her? All her scenes this year have lacked conviction."Toothless" sums it up quite nicely. And not just in terms of her power over Baltar, but she has become nothing more than an extra on the show. A background prop almost.


Cavil wants to dissect Hera. OK..given that he orchestrated the events leading up to her conception, shouldn't he have some idea about her purpose, or at least be aware that a dissection probably wouldn't reveal much?I suppose, but it seems like Cavil has gone off the deep end a little bit, and I don't really get the impression that he's working in the best interest of his people, and as much as he talks about the future of the cylons, considering his rant against his own human exterior, I could see him being more offended by Hera's existence than truly appreciative of her potential as a savior or the future of their species.


Going by recollection, Mary McDonnell's performance in the flashbacks is very inconsistent with her portrayal in the miniseries and "Epiphanies". Somewhere down the line it seems she made a distinct change in what age her character was.As I've mentioned before, it seems to me like her and Olmos have been given just a little bit too much creative rein with their characters. They strike me as the kind of actors who can be excellent in the hands of good directors, but once you take them off the leash, their performances edge towards the theatrical, and not in a good way. How much of that is their own doing, and how much is RDM encouraging is impossible to say, but he certainly seems to love it.


Having a the Final Battle be a rescue mission for Hera is not only a bit disappointing dramatically, It doesn't hold up to dramatic scrutiny either. Going from "forging an alliance with Cylon rebels" to "willing to lay down our lives for a half-human/half-cylon hybrid" is too big a jump for this series to take. Had the Cylons and The Fleet been together for years instead of months, it would have been more palpable.Yes, and as mentioned before, had we seen Adama struggle with this issue over a greater period of time, it might have been believable, but this sudden turn seemed to happen for no better reason that it's the season finale, and it's time to move things along.


I don't think that the return of Kara's Viper is going to be explained. Remember, it was originally shot (as scene on the season 3 DVD) that she just re-appeared on the Galactica at the end of "Crossroads, pt. II". I don't think the writers intended the return of the Viper to hold as much importance as the return of Kara.It seems like a pretty big deal, particularly how the Viper at one point seemed to take on almost a mind of its own, so I would certinly hope that this isn't one of the many loose ends they plan to leave dangling, when the final credits roll.


Despite my reservations and complaints, I have to say that I've still enjoyed these last couple of episodes, and even if the finale is dissapointing, I won't think all that less of this otherwise excellent series.Then you're more forgiving than I am. :)

[David Lucas]

Sounds about right.

When the episode started with her lifeline on the monitor, I thought for sure she was going to die right there. Like them saying, "Yeah. That's how we're going to start this shindig off."

I was actually kind of excited to see that of BSG because as much as I really, really do love Roslin. I love her like my mom, kinda. But she needs to go, it's just time. I STILL stick by this show, I WANT to believe they're going to explain all the mysteries that happy sounded off, but that's so much on your plate for 2 hours.

Seriously. That's a LOT on your plate.

That's like LOST savingall the answers for the last 5 episodes. There's just too many things you need to explain to the audience. Too many, like, huge events that have happened that you can't just exposition your way through.

You built this in us, Moore. We demand the payoff.

As I said, I stick by, and love this show. However, that episode with Anders recapping that section of the mythos was just horrible. As of right now, I have absolutely no idea what the story is. I put it on a TV at my bar that Friday night so I could watch (since SciFi will let you stream episodes, but not the latest one). I missed probably 40% of it.

However, what I did see was Anders, as afore mentioned by hap I think, convieniently explained everything to the Four (and us, obviously).

When I watched it the second time, I just couldn't bring myself to pay attention.

I've watched every episode of every season. I'm deeply invested in how this plays out. And I just can't do it. I can't pay attention to that episode.

I watch a lot of tv and movies. I hear a LOT of exposition monologues. It's really hard when you understand the purpose of exposition and some of those monologues just don't even try to hide it.

I really, thoroughly appreciate writers that can exposition crap in without drawing attention to itself as exposition.

......exposition.

As such, this scene is just almost unforgivable. This is one of those really bad cases of exposition monologuing. "Oh! I remember every single detail of what went down 2,000 years ago. And here it is!"

BSG has made offenses to me as a fan. All shows have. Hell, screw offend, HEROES raped my mother.....in front of my sister. But I can always forgive them because I'm digging this story.

But I better not see any of that weak crap in my finale. As corny as Adama's paint fiasco last week was, I was pumped up for his speech this week. Mofo is raw like that. Aww, how cute, Roslin wants to fight. WTF ARE YOU DOING HERE WOMAN?!

However, while Baltar's people story line fizzled it opened up for the most interesting thing I found about this episode.....ghost six. She's not a cylon. She's not human. She is not a figment of his imagination. So what the hell is she?

"Humanity is about to write it's final chapter, and you, Gaius, will be it's author."

That line had me actually wondering if they'd surprise the hell out of us and actually kill everyone. That "....for Kara Thrace. End line." frpm Anders really creeped me out. Like it's part of a book or something.

BSG. We've been here for a very long time. You've hung some pretty delicious looking carrots over our head. Think it's time we get a taste. You have two hours. Amaze us.

[James]

Oh well, I liked it - though I do concur its placement was a little too slow paced for the first part of the end.

I'm not sure I really understand why people are confused about the flashbacks. To me it was simply a contrast - to show the characters as they began as now we prepare to see their end. Could be next episode has some more links, but I thought this greatly benefited this episode. It made a break from the fleet and just reminded us what these people have lost before we've lose the show for good.

I think this final part of season four will work far better when watched a second time, when you can allow the show to flow without the frustrations as to the show's answers.

I think as long as next episode doesn't feel rushed, I'd be very happy with this season's ending. Unlike most shows, it has rushed, but placed priorities on the characters and their natural progressions just as the show always has done. That said, if next week does feel like a cram fest, it will make this season feel terribly uneven and really bring a question to the show's pre-planning. But the show's never made that mistake before, so I'd be surprised if they do it again.

I thought it was all interesting, in character and well thought through. Yes, I too thirst for answers and that does raise the question as to whether you are really serving your viewers, but I guess that's always the question: do you serve the viewers or the story. Credit on them for not feeling a need to rush and to explore these characters fully before the end.

I've grown to hate shows that pull out a finale that has us lose the character moments for the sake for some epic free-for-all. It's nice to see these characters have a chance to breathe - I only hope the show lives up to my faith in it and delivers next week.

So yah, I sympathise and feel for the frustration people feel, but when I stand back, I think objectively it was a gutsy and authentic approach to the end of this show.

[The Clown Prince]

I think this final part of season four will work far better when watched a second time, when you can allow the show to flow without the frustrations as to the show's answers.

It's clearly obvious having watched Part 1 that it was meant to be watched at the same time with the upcoming Parts 2 and 3. I don't understand Sci Fi's reasoning for not airing the finale in it's 3 hour incarnation as it was meant to be. All Sci Fi has is reruns of other long gone shows airing Fridays.

Looking ahead to Friday's schedule, Sci Fi is re-airing Part 1 at 8:00 to flow right into the final 2 hours. Again, I don't know why Sci Fi didn't do this from the start. :confused: :sad:

Like most of Season 4.5, this 3 hour finale had a bunch of stuff edited out for time. When the DVD comes out soon, Daybreak will be even longer, again, like most of the episodes from Season 4.5. I'm already looking forward to that and we haven't seen what the last 2 hours will bring.

[James]

It's clearly obvious having watched Part 1 that it was meant to be watched at the same time with the upcoming Parts 2 and 3. I don't understand Sci Fi's reasoning for not airing the finale in it's 3 hour incarnation as it was meant to be. All Sci Fi has is reruns of other long gone shows airing Fridays.

Looking ahead to Friday's schedule, Sci Fi is re-airing Part 1 at 8:00 to flow right into the final 2 hours. Again, I don't know why Sci Fi didn't do this from the start. :confused: :sad:

Like most of Season 4.5, this 3 hour finale had a bunch of stuff edited out for time. When the DVD comes out soon, Daybreak will be even longer, again, like most of the episodes from Season 4.5. I'm already looking forward to that and we haven't seen what the last 2 hours will bring.

Particularly given RDM's comment about holding the budget back for the finale - should be quite a blast. Worth mentioning how stunning Caprica was visualised. A brilliant mesh between contemporary and futuristic.

[The Clown Prince]

NOTE: I'm posting this earlier than usual because the running time of tonights episode will run over 11 minutes! So if you're setting your DVR's/TIVO's to record tonight, at least set it for 15 minutes past 11:00! 2 hours 11 minutes is the runtime.

It's finally here! The 2 hour final episode of Battlestar Galatica! How will Ron Moore send this series off? Everyone of the cast said it was a perfect finale, very well done, and other very postive things. I really, really hope so.

Episode 4.20: Daybreak Part 2
Friday March 21 at 9:00pm to 11:11pm

Episode Description: Adama and the volunteers take the Galatica to Cavil's base in a bid to recover Hera in the finale of the fourth season and the series!

[GWOtaku]

Okay, someone please tell me that this actually makes sense......

Why is this Earth they've arrived at suddenly not a nuclear wasteland? What the hell's going on?

Edit:

Okay. Stop me if I'm wrong. "Earth" #1 was ruined. What they've arrived at is a different planet that looks...just like Earth #1...it's not the same but they're going to call it Earth anyway, thereby making it Earth #2 basically.

So...we're supposed to accept that two identical planets exist in the universe?

I don't know that I like this...it's so incredibly convenient.

[Spanish Megatron]

Am I the only one who laughed when Cavil killed himself? :sweat:

[GWOtaku]

Am I the only one who laughed when Cavil killed himself? :sweat:

Nope.

Meh...now that it's over I'm not so sure that I actually do hate this. It kind of works, in a bizarre way....

[Swordfish_II]

Well that was certainly interesting.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Am I the only one who laughed when Cavil killed himself? :sweat:

Nope. Good gravy Miss Daisy, it came out of nowhere so fast I couldn't help but laugh.

For a finale that doesn't have that much action, I feel incredibly drained. If I had the script in hand, I'd probably huggle it. Did they patch over some plot points? Yeah, but for some reason I feel like the patches hold.

Normally I hate cyclical stories but this one managed to include a hopeful note that it didn't have to turn out the same way. That makes all the difference to me.

[GWOtaku]

I think that in order to accept this, you have to accept that divine providence was in play. Two practically identical Earth's? The mental Six and Baltar? Starbuck dying and being sent back specifically to bring everyone to this new beginning? The dreams and visions of Roslin and others coming true? It all seems to come down to humanity screwing things up, whereas "God's plan" is basically giving us the opportunity to start all over again and try to get it right. And the entire story of BSG is one chapter of this cycle that may or may not be coming to an end with this conclusion.

And the brilliant part of that is that this whole angle was put into doubt for a very long time, thereby completely throwing us. When mental Six first started showing up, for example, it was reasonable to view that as some kind of wacky mental delusion unique to Gaius Baltar. The same goes for Roslin's visions and such, given that she was being put on drugs. Except it all wasn't a farce at all, there was actually a purpose and various characters were actually being guided the whole time.

So yeah, actually, this is interesting. I not only don't hate it, I think I'm starting to get it now that I think about it. It's all making a lot of sense to me at this point now that I'm considering the show in these terms.

[Icer]

Since the beginning Head Six droned about God's will. And it came to pass, I loved the ending. All the loose ends were tied up nicely except for mystery cylon #13 (the one whom Cavil made ill) that hasn't been revealed. Perhaps in "The Plan" we'll get that answer.

[Brekkie]

I fully understand now why these cast and crew have such love each other and for this show.

I suspected the twist at the end but I thought it would be more on the lines of Baltar becoming Jesus since he had the look. I would not be surprised that Ron Moore read Chariots of the Gods.

So Hera fate is to end up as a fossil?


Did anyone see Ron Moore? Did anyone understand the angel version of Baltar's response after uses the word "He" in describing God? I thought it was hilarious.

The truth behind Kara Thrace's return makes perfect sense now. What was really cool about it was that even she had no idea why she returned and it was driving her nuts till the end. Sam's last words has more meaning now because he will meet her on the other side. The only thing that I am confused about is when it is stated in Razor and past episodes by the hybrids that she will lead the human race to their destruction. Can someone clear that up?

I really loved how the Ron Moore threw the monkey wrench in the works during the download from the final 5. I always wondered how they were going to tie up that loose end regarding Calley's murder. Aaron Douglas is an amazing actor.

I really thought that Adama was going to crash the Raptor and die with Roslin which I am glad he did not. It was beautiful end for both of them.
Mary McDonnell is a cougar of the highest order.

I never realized the other hangar of Galactica was actually a museum. I always thought they used both hangars. That was very cool.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Well, Kara led them to their new pristine world, and for all intents and purposes, "Colonial" human civilization is destroyed after they follow the advice of Lee Adama, the First Hippie. No trace of them remains except in bits and pieces, unrecognizable to those that follow.

Wait, so Kara is the Christ-figure and Baltar is John the Baptist?

[RayChuang]

Well that was certainly interesting.

And it certainly was, too. Especially--

--with the scenes of the the robots we see on the TV screens from "our" modern world. In short, there was a "closure of a circle" in terms of humanity's development, to say the least.

[Ragebot]

We really don't know if Earth 1 was even remotely identical to Earth 2. We saw no planets, no moon, no recognizable continents. I also theorize that the Earth we saw in "Crossroads Pt. II" was Earth 2, not Earth 1. The episode also managed to reconcile something that I found disappointing about "Revelations": that Kara didn't actually lead the Colonials to Earth. This time she did.




So Hera fate is to end up as a fossil?


Well, that and Eve.

First gut reaction - I loved the episode. I have reservations about the plotting of season 4.5 as a whole -and my previous complaints about "Daybreak Pt. I" still stand - but all in all is is one of the best television series endings. It inarguably takes the mythological aspects of the show to the EXTREME (i.e. God ACTUALLY being God - not even Evangelion flat out stated that) which is certainly not going to sit well with those people who think that the ending to "Crossroads Pt. II" was the worst television they've ever seen, but for others who have been willing to go on this mythological (and flat-out spiritual) journey, I think it paid high dividends.

[Spanish Megatron]

I felt the first hour of the finale was some of the greatest television I have ever seen. I mean the space battle, old and new school cylons fighting it out, really got me going. I don't I have before cheered out loud to my television before:D. The way they ended the characters arcs satisfied me for the most part. Either I missed something or something was cut because Helo was bleeding out and then is fine on Earth. That kind of disoriented me for second, bit I guess it worked out. The main crux of second hour I think was dedicated to answering some of the major questions left behind. I was happy with most of the answers, but I found ending bit with future Baltar and Six a bit weird. They mention God doesn't like his name, what the heck was that supposed to mean, God is Bob Dylan:p? Actually that kind of makes sense with the music an such.

[Lord Dalek]

As a finale, I'd say that was one of the best finales in science fiction television history, up there with DS9's "What You Leave Behind" and B5's "Sleeping in Light". It was amazing, loved every minute.

[Ragebot]

They mention God doesn't like his name, what the heck was that supposed to mean, God is Bob Dylan:p? Actually that kind of makes sense with the music an such.

It's possible that Starbuck was one of the representations of God. Perhaps the "Holy Spirit" if you will, this would tie in with the idea when Leoben said he "saw the face of God" he meant her. I'm dissappointed we didn't get to see her in the ending scene, but of course it may just be that she crossed over at that point.

Of course, the show also withstands a post-modernist deconstruction that Ronald D. Moore is God and that he basically wrote himself into his own mythology. :p

[Wounded_Dragon]

Looking around the interwebz...why are so many people surprised at the God angle? It's only been hinted at since the first episode and got more ethereal as the show went on. It's not like angelic beings are new to science fiction in general or Battlestar Galactica in specific.

That and the usual misunderstanding of deus ex machina. :mad:

EDIT:
Where some are getting tripped up: by saying it ends in our present day, some think this is the only repetition. Our present might by the 3rd, the 10th, the 10,000th, or the millionth repetition. Plenty of times for primitive man to be spread around the galaxy.

[RayChuang]

As a finale, I'd say that was one of the best finales in science fiction television history, up there with DS9's "What You Leave Behind" and B5's "Sleeping in Light". It was amazing, loved every minute.

Wrong. It was one of the BEST finales in all of television history, period. We can nit-pick all the points in the three-hour finale to figurative death but the final plot twist at the very end worked brilliantly, because despite the "optimistic" tone of the final scenes the showing of the robots on the TV screens made you wonder: will we have a repeat all over again in the future?

Don't be surprised that this TV series gets multiple Emmy nominations this coming summer.

[The Clown Prince]

Maureen Ryan over at the Chicago Tribune had a Q&A with Ron Moore about Daybreak. You should have some of your answers to your questions there. Obviously there are still some, but it's a great read as to why Ron Moore and company did what they did. Including Moore sounding regretful he did the cameo at the end. :p I encourage everyone to give it a read.

Also, though it's one of the first thing's you'll see at the page, here is some info about the season 4.5 DVD's...



The DVD version of "A Disquiet Follows My Soul" will be about 10 minutes longer.
The DVD version of "Islanded in a Stream of Stars" will be about 15-20 minutes longer.
The DVD version of "Daybreak," the series finale, will be about 15-20 minutes longer.

And here is the link to the interview... http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/03/battlestar-galactica-daybreak-finale-moore-mcdonnell-olmos.html#more (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/03/battlestar-galactica-daybreak-finale-moore-mcdonnell-olmos.html#more)

[Brekkie]

And here is the link to the interview... http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/03/battlestar-galactica-daybreak-finale-moore-mcdonnell-olmos.html#more (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/03/battlestar-galactica-daybreak-finale-moore-mcdonnell-olmos.html#more)

It appears my question regarding Kara Thrace has been answered.

What we have a has a sort of poetry and mystery to it and preserves the mystery and sort of lets people debate and think and wonder what she meant and where she came from and what that was all about. And it's also clear that she was about getting them to their salvation. She was the harbinger of death, and brought them to that, and she was the harbinger of life and brought them to that as well.

[mr.happy]

Like the dog whose bark is worse than its bite, the once mighty BSG ends up taking a dump on the floor, and wallows in the aroma and delight of its own excrement. I'm just glad we're not yet in the age of smello-vision, because this was a stinker of biblical proportions... almost literally, as it turned out.

As I expected from the tone of last week's episode, instead of trying to tie loose ends together, deliver a satisfying finale, and save the show from the last two seasons of having chipped away at its own legacy, Team RDM decided to double down on contrived self importance, and a bit of CGI whiz-bang, but ultimately left us with the kind of message that might seem really meaningful and profound to a teenager who's stoned out his his mind, but which in the cold, harsh light of day, and in the context of this show, is a rather banal and utterly redundant point.

Even with all the fancy action, it was such an unexciting couple of hours, and the only part that managed to squeeze any kind of emotion out of this ham-fisted debacle was when Baltar got all emotional about accepting his farmer's roots and settling down with Six. A nice little moment, although somewhat ruined if you consider that there was no real catalyst for the emergence of what must now be Baltar 5.0. But then, his character "development" has always been driven almost purely by the writer's desire to get from A to B without having to cover the distance in between.

Equally implausible was how easily the fleet was persuaded to drop all worldly possessions to go live in a cave. Not because it made any sense, but because in RDM's skunk induced haze, that probably seemed really profound too, even if that notion flies in the face of everything we've ever known about the fleet and this branch of humanity in general. And I'd really like to know how they sold the idea of flying all the life saving equipment and medicine into the sun to the countless wounded and critically ill people in sickbay. And who decided it was cool to kill Anders?

And for those keeping score at home, Starbuck wasn't the "harbinger of death", "the dying leader" didn't lead them to Earth, and Hera turned out to be completely irrelevant as anything other than the setup for the final CGI slug-fest, but who cares, because Baltar said something that probably sounded profound and meaningful to those who really, really wanted it to be. Oh, and the Cylons had no plan, and I'm quite sure the upcoming special on that subject isn't going to do anything to change that fact.


It appears my question regarding Kara Thrace has been answered.Was your question "Is Kara Thrace a one-size-fits-all-but-doesn't-make-a-lick-of-sense solution to any number of gaping plot holes?"

[Ragebot]

Was your question "Is Kara Thrace a one-size-fits-all-but-doesn't-make-a-lick-of-sense solution to any number of gaping plot holes?"

Deliberate metaphysical ambiguities aren't the same thing as "gaping plot holes". I suppose you could argue (not unreasonably) if it was prudent for the show to even have metaphysical elements in the first place, but even so they were still plainly evident since "33".

I'll admit that there is one plot anomaly that doesn't seem to have an answer:

Exactly why did Kara's viper crash on the first Earth, and why did her shiny new "viper" transmit a homing signal? What did God have to gain from doing that?

[mr.happy]

Deliberate metaphysical ambiguities aren't the same thing as "gaping plot holes". I suppose you could argue (not unreasonably) if it was prudent for the show to even have metaphysical elements in the first place, but even so they were still plainly evident since "33".I'm not arguing against metaphysical elements, I'm arguing against using a character that deserved so much more in such an unsatisfying manner, and then not even following through on the "harbinger of death" thing. I'm sure it was "organic to the storyline", and that it "felt right", and all the usual blather we hear from art-tart Ronald D. Moore, who shall henceforth be known as the Roger D. Moore of sci-fi.


I'll admit that there is one plot anomaly that doesn't seem to have an answer:

Exactly why did Kara's viper crash on the first Earth, and why did her shiny new "viper" transmit a homing signal? What did God have to gain from doing that?There are many more such anomalies. Maybe we just weren't stoned enough to make sense of it. :shrug:

[macattack]

You know, it's kinda fitting that BSG ended the same week as the Sci fi Channel announced it was changing its name to Syfy. In a way, this is the final stand of Sci fi before the transition to Syfy begins, and man, what a way to put an end to an era with a bang. I was praying they would pull a good ending out, and while I admit it wasn't completely satisfying it is good enough.

Though the moment Kara vanished I was instantly reminded of Now and Then, Here and There.

Given the circumstances and the plot holes BSG has dug itself into I think this was the best ending it could have had given the circumstances. I do think there was a lot cut out of Daybreak (which has been confirmed) so I feel that a lot of our irks will be answered by the extra scenes.

The finale was the first episode since the Darek rebellion that actually felt like an episode of Battlestar Galactica in a season that just plain didn't feel like BSG. I think they let the acclaim get to their heads but I think they realized what they had to do just in time and salvaged it from being a completely self-important and preachy ending. In the end, the finale was pure BSG and I'll take that.

I think the show fumbled some aspects (Kara, Kara, Kara) but the end made up for it. Heck, the brief shots of Cylon-on-Cylon throwdown nearly made all of the gobbledygook from season 4.5 worth it by itself.

[mr.happy]

The finale was the first episode since the Darek rebellion that actually felt like an episode of Battlestar Galactica in a season that just plain didn't feel like BSG.From a superficial point of view, I'd agree with that, and I don't mean that as a put-down. The show has obviously been running on a shoe string budget, and this was the first time we've seen them put some money on the screen for a long time, and it does feel like a very different show, when not every scene is someone sitting around the darkened interiors of Galactica sulking about something or other. But spectacle aside, this episode did suffer quite badly from finale-itis, in that there were just too many ambitious ideas that fell short of the high standards the show used to set for itself a couple of seasons ago, so in that sense, it was just more of what we've had for the last two seasons. In fact, maybe less.

[David Lucas]

I just finally got to watch it, and while I have far too much to nit pick about to actually type it out right now, I do need to get this off my chest.

I have been a supporter of whatever direction Team BSG took over the course of the years because I trusted their vision in the grand scheme of things. I've read Happy's and many other people's negative opinions of the show's direction and said, "Meh, wait till the finale."

After watching it, I gotta say, happy, you're right.

I didn't like it.

I don't understand how any of you did either. How does noone feel shafted?

All plot holes aside, which I WILL get into later on, once they found Earth: Next, every single thing they tried to do went against every single thing this show stands for.

I always felt that this was humanity at it's core. Throughout the entire series, I always felt like this is what humanity is if we take away all the pretentious moral crap we get from being in a civilized society.

Everything was always so dark. So depressing.

I loved it. It was what made this show feel so real for me despite the Cylons and jumps.

So after everything, the moral of the story is that the Centurions go off to find their own destiny, all the BAD Cylons died (out of pretty much nowhere, although I was very happy to see the Tory/Tyrol thing touched on), Kara really IS dead and she's a magical superghost, there's a BRAND new Earth with BRAND new humanity, and maybe, just maybe, we'll be ok this time around.

That is ****ing retarded.

Cavil's death was ****ing retarded. Seriously. What the hell was that? The "mastermind antagonist" just gets on the ship, gets within head shot range of Hera, turns her back over for Ressurrection, waits with like 4 armed guards on an enemy ship, then when bullets fly says "FRAK!" and kills himself.

I honestly don't care what Moore says in these interviews I'm about to read. I don't. Starbuck's story was horrible. Isn't Starbuck the main character in the original? Shouldn't the CONSTANT mentioning of her leading humanity to their death mean something.

Oh, but maybe it's because humanity as we knew it died.

Yeah, when I someone says "You are the harbinger of death." I think they only refer to it as a symbolic thing. Makes perfect sense.

Oh no wait, it makes absolutely no sense at all. Neither does ANYTHING that happened to Kara in this finale.

Neither does saying, "You know what? Rather than have technology at the dawn of the human race and really try to do techonology right this time around, no weapons, no crap like that.....let's just fly everything into the sun and assume that the human race isn't eventually going to come up with the idea of technology down the road. If they do, maybe this time around we can do things better. Just you know, not right now, where it really counts."

And Sam?! Really?! That's what we get from him? He tells all the space ships, "Hey! Let's fly into the sun!"

And Hera's the fossil we found? Ok, so she died as a kid and never really got to have a life? Then why the hell did we just spend the last 2 years revolving around her? She served absolutely no purpose.

None. Zero.

You can all make up a bunch of crap to try to explain her significance with theories that are never really mentioned in the show, but you'll end up with nothing.

I really, really thought that this was going to be "the end of humanity" like Angel Six kept saying THE WHOLE SHOW.

THAT would have been more along the lines of what the heart of the show stands for.

Humans and Cylons wipe out all of both their races fighting each other over a girl that noone knows the importance to because that's just the stupid nature we have.

I still, as a whole, love the show. The last couple seasons didn't really do it for me considering the potential the show had in the beginning, but I found it entertaining. That's all I can ask from a show.

As for finales? I expect questions answered. Not the 2 hour crap fest of a send off we got to such beloved characters.

....end line.

[EinBebop]

Cavil's death was ****ing retarded. Seriously. What the hell was that? The "mastermind antagonist" just gets on the ship, gets within head shot range of Hera, turns her back over for Ressurrection, waits with like 4 armed guards on an enemy ship, then when bullets fly says "FRAK!" and kills himself.I concur. And you don't have to censor yourself, it's okay to say "frak" here. :)
And Hera's the fossil we found? Ok, so she died as a kid and never really got to have a life?Mitochondrial Eve is the name scientists have given to the name scientists have given to the most recent common ancestor for all human beings now living on Earth.

Lived long enough to have at least one kid!

[GWOtaku]

I
All plot holes aside, which I WILL get into later on, once they found Earth: Next, every single thing they tried to do went against every single thing this show stands for.

I always felt that this was humanity at it's core. Throughout the entire series, I always felt like this is what humanity is if we take away all the pretentious moral crap we get from being in a civilized society.

Everything was always so dark. So depressing.

I loved it. It was what made this show feel so real for me despite the Cylons and jumps,


So you're saying the entire point of BSG was and should have remained a nihilistic worldview? That would have been a remarkably narrow message and resulted in a show far, far inferior to what actually exists. BSG was never that simple to begin with even in the beginning, back when we had a ragtag group of people trying to make the best of an apocalyptic situation.

[mr.happy]

Cavil's death was ****ing retarded. Seriously. What the hell was that? The "mastermind antagonist" just gets on the ship, gets within head shot range of HeraYeah, I thought I had missed something when he suddenly showed up out of nowhere like some B-movie horror villain, and the idea of holding a gun to the head of the very prize he was after, seemed like a somewhat hollow threat.


Yeah, when I someone says "You are the harbinger of death." I think they only refer to it as a symbolic thing. Makes perfect sense.Yeah, it's so deep, you can read anything into it you like. Personally, I say Starbuck was ice cream. Because she's cool, and she melted away under Earth's hot sun. Whatever you think she was, that's what she was. It all fits into the brilliantly flexible vision of Roger D. Moore. In fact, we can take the other bit of laughably boneheaded symbolism and say that she's Batman. I mean, what is a pigeon, if not a flying rat? What rhymes with "rat"? That's right, "bat", and did you see how she disappeared at the end, when Lee was looking away? That's totally Batman. Man, this show is so deep.


Neither does saying, "You know what? Rather than have technology at the dawn of the human race and really try to do techonology right this time around, no weapons, no crap like that.....let's just fly everything into the sun and assume that the human race isn't eventually going to come up with the idea of technology down the road. If they do, maybe this time around we can do things better. Just you know, not right now, where it really counts."Yes, a brilliant swipe at modern consumerism, which ignores virtually every single relevant point about humanity the show has ever made, not to mention the fact that humanity was arguably more violent and barbaric before technology.


And Sam?! Really?! That's what we get from him? He tells all the space ships, "Hey! Let's fly into the sun!"This new enlightened turn for humanity sure makes some strange points about the value of life. How did they talk Sam into that one? "So, err, Sam, if you don't want to fly the fleet into the sun, raise your hand now... Right, the sun it is, then"


And Hera's the fossil we found? Ok, so she died as a kid and never really got to have a life? Then why the hell did we just spend the last 2 years revolving around her? She served absolutely no purpose.Hey, you were the one who asked for more depressing elements. ;)

In fairness, though, we haven't actually spent the last two seasons focusing on her. She had been all but forgotten, until a couple of episodes ago, where the writers suddenly remembered she was supposed to be special, even if they'd never really figured out what that was supposed to mean.


So you're saying the entire point of BSG was and should have remained a nihilistic worldview? That would have been a remarkably narrow message and resulted in a show far, far inferior to what actually exists.You think the idea of the whole dysfunctional fleet magically agreeing that the cave man lifestyle is the way to go is a particularly sophisticated idea, or even remotely consistent with anything we've ever seen from the show?

[Ragebot]

Yeah, it's so deep, you can read anything into it you like. Personally, I say Starbuck was ice cream. Because she's cool, and she melted away under Earth's hot sun. Whatever you think she was, that's what she was. It all fits into the brilliantly flexible vision of Roger D. Moore. In fact, we can take the other bit of laughably boneheaded symbolism and say that she's Batman. I mean, what is a pigeon, if not a flying rat? What rhymes with "rat"? That's right, "bat", and did you see how she disappeared at the end, when Lee was looking away? That's totally Batman. Man, this show is so deep.

That's really not fair. The BSG mythos did provide *some* context for Kara - it's just that we're meant to regard the events surrounding her life in the most literal way possible. And frankly, I know you're not going to agree with me one bit, the ambiguity in the episode made the previous events in "Flesh and Bone" and "Maelstrom" *more* powerful, not less.

[mr.happy]

That's really not fair. The BSG mythos did provide *some* context for Kara - it's just that we're meant to regard the events surrounding her life in the most literal way possible. And frankly, I know you're not going to agree with me one bit, the ambiguity in the episode made the previous events in "Flesh and Bone" and "Maelstrom" *more* powerful, not less.But the context is as vague and pointless as my ice cream/Batman comparison. The only saving grace of this angel nonsense they pulled out of their behind at the last minute was that the real Starbuck did die in the cockpit of a Viper, but there's really no relevant tie-in beyond that. And that's the problem I've had with much of the last two seasons. There's nothing wrong with making stuff up as you go along, but what you come up with has to respect what came before it, and very little of this, and particularly the finale, did.

[David Lucas]

Exactly, you can tell at the last second they just really hoped that we would add in our own little story for Kara since we never got their story. Problem is we never got enough information to actually piece together a rational story.
It happens a lot amongst our happy little tribe of geeks, I've been guilty of it before.

The thing is, when I've said "Well, maybe this happened because..." regarding a show or movie, what follows my statement is always never really that important to the plotline anyways. It's usually just a stupid little nitpick I have and I try to rationalize it by giving it my own story.

This wasn't some stupid little nitpick.

Starbuck's rebirth, to me, was probably the most interesting thing that happened lately. Her finding out she's not a Cylon? Her finding her dead body?

For nothing. She punches the numbers to a Bob Dylan song from 50,000 years ago that NEVER got explained other than the fact that the first 12 notes are somehow the coordinates for a NEW EARTH!! That, based on how the end turned out, HAD to have had a NEW BOB DYLAN!

That was the whole point! I just figured it out! Bob Dylan is the Supreme One. It was all a sinister plan so that he might be reborn!

You can all try to rationalize it to yourselves if you want, but in the end you'll come around (mainly because I don't think me or Happy will let you spout out insane cover theories for Moore).

Ok, so Hera gave birth to someone. I forgot that part because I was so enraged at the time. So what?

How is she the mother of humanity? There were 38,000 other human beings on the planet. Some of them probably fell in love with the cavemen, frakked, and had kids too. Some of them probably frakked each other and had kids. How in God's name is Hera's kid special?

If they said at the end we found the remains of Mother, and she appeared to have cybernetic qualities, that might have made more sense to make such a big deal out of her, but it still wouldn't have given her any more meaning as the chosen one or whatever the hell you want to call her.

And again, how many times did Angel Six say that Baltar was going to be responsible for the end of the human race in the course of the entire series?

How many times was Kara referred to as something that was going to kill everyone?

Living in peace on a brand new Earth is not, in any way, shape, or form, EVER going to be able to give refuge to the argument "Maybe humanity did end, now a new one begins."

That is stupid juvenile crap that has no place among this show.

And you know what, how is everyone dying at the end a nihilistic world view that goes against what the show stands for when the show did NOTHING BUT REFERENCE THE DEATH OF EVERYONE AT EVERY TURN?!

How would this whole show actually being "Humanity's final chapter", not have been a cool way to go? Or maybe Hera alone lands on the new Earth.

See, BAM, look at that, my ending makes a thousand times more sense. Kara and Sam hug each other one last time, then Sam blows up everything (somehow). Everyone dies, but Baltar and Six put Hera in a escape pod or something at the end of the stupid, stupid, stupid, Opera scene.

The fleet goes on to other worlds and start new 12 colonies, or die, whatever you like better. Hera lands on Earth, and so starts the whole cycle all over again since Earth One was all Cylon Hybrids, too.

Hera actually is given importance. All the prophecies actually come true. Kara and Sam get a MUCH better goodbye. Kara ends up being a harbinger of death after all. The song could still be coordinates. The opera scene would have meant more.

Look, I love this show, but I just don't see how they could have EVER thought they were going to pull of this finale. They should have started answering questions the SECOND that the show came back for this final season. But they kept postponing it, and postponing it, to the point where it was on them to answer EVERY question in 2 hours and like 19 minutes. And HALF OF THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING!

The flashbacks were cool, I liked seeing everyone pre-slaughter, but it was pointless. That was SO much time they could have spent further explaining....well....ANYTHING!

I've got soooooooooooo much more to say on this subject, but it's all garbled in my head right now, so I'll just shoot out with my retorts as people reference them in this thread.

[mr.happy]

For nothing. She punches the numbers to a Bob Dylan song from 50,000 years ago that NEVER got explained other than the fact that the first 12 notes are somehow the coordinates for a NEW EARTH!!Her sharp detective mind worked out the meaning of the notes and translated them to coordinates. This is just further evidence that she's Batman. :)


How many times was Kara referred to as something that was going to kill everyone?In principle, I have no problem with a misinterpreted prophecy turning out to mean something else. The problem is that it turned out to be utterly insignificant.

[JeffBreakdown]

Her sharp detective mind worked out the meaning of the notes and translated them to coordinates. This is just further evidence that she's Batman. :)

L O frakkin L!!!

hahaha, that woulda been the BEST ending ever.

Ripping off her face to reveal the cowl to Lee standing in the middle of Africa.

[GWOtaku]

You think the idea of the whole dysfunctional fleet magically agreeing that the cave man lifestyle is the way to go is a particularly sophisticated idea, or even remotely consistent with anything we've ever seen from the show?

They were living a rather simple existence on New Caprica, were they not? I'll agree that abandoning the fleet felt rushed, but I don't agree that the general outcome is unbelievable.

Hell, they found a home that they could call Earth. They just spent a very long time cooped up on ships running from one place to the next. Why would they want to travel on them again? To what end?



The thing is, when I've said "Well, maybe this happened because..." regarding a show or movie, what follows my statement is always never really that important to the plotline anyways. It's usually just a stupid little nitpick I have and I try to rationalize it by giving it my own story.

This wasn't some stupid little nitpick.

Starbuck's rebirth, to me, was probably the most interesting thing that happened lately. Her finding out she's not a Cylon? Her finding her dead body?

For nothing. She punches the numbers to a Bob Dylan song from 50,000 years ago that NEVER got explained other than the fact that the first 12 notes are somehow the coordinates for a NEW EARTH!! That, based on how the end turned out, HAD to have had a NEW BOB DYLAN!

That was the whole point! I just figured it out! Bob Dylan is the Supreme One. It was all a sinister plan so that he might be reborn!

You can all try to rationalize it to yourselves if you want, but in the end you'll come around (mainly because I don't think me or Happy will let you spout out insane cover theories for Moore).

First of all, yes you will. You will because people are allowed to disagree with your point of view and there are ways to look at it that don't necessarily deserve to be automatically dismissed as "insane cover theories."

How is she the mother of humanity? There were 38,000 other human beings on the planet. Some of them probably fell in love with the cavemen, frakked, and had kids too. Some of them probably frakked each other and had kids. How in God's name is Hera's kid special?Moore answered that in the interview. As the human/cylon hybrid she was used to establish the point that both the human and cylon races live on in future humanity.



And again, how many times did Angel Six say that Baltar was going to be responsible for the end of the human race in the course of the entire series?

How many times was Kara referred to as something that was going to kill everyone?

Living in peace on a brand new Earth is not, in any way, shape, or form, EVER going to be able to give refuge to the argument "Maybe humanity did end, now a new one begins."

That is stupid juvenile crap that has no place among this show.According to you, that is. I disagree. The message was "You are the harbinger of death...you will lead them all to their end." The second part of that is open-ended and not immediately obvious. As for "death," well, Galactica died. The fleet died. Human civilization as it was known was pretty much brought to an end. Present day Earth has no knowledge whatsoever of what happened, touched by the legacy of the fleet's settlers but also very ignorant of it.

Also, the Cylon hybrids were infamous for ranting prophecy in sentences that are drastically unclear and not that easy to understand. Your problem is that you're looking for literal answers in what they've said before, when that's never been how they ever talked. In fact, just about every element of prophecy in the entire series played out in a different way from what was immediately obvious. It all ties into what Moore was saying about the divine surrounding us and influencing us while we're never completely understanding the nature of it. Which is, by the way, a reason I'm glad they decided to not find some concrete, straightforward explanation for Starbuck. I agree with Moore, that would've just diminished what they were doing with her.


And you know what, how is everyone dying at the end a nihilistic world view that goes against what the show stands for when the show did NOTHING BUT REFERENCE THE DEATH OF EVERYONE AT EVERY TURN?!Because the show was about more than death and it was about more than saying "hey, humanity sucks!" I prefer a BSG that has you asking questions instead of feeding you obvious messages. Many characters on the show were very multifaceted and changed in big ways due to the events of the series. You had despicable people and then you had people like Adama and Lee who were mostly "good" but had different perspectives, and you also had the tension between the civilian Government and the military when it came to authority and how to get things done. And it was all of that conflict amidst the simple quest for survival that made Galactica such great television in the first place. The first two seasons alone should be more than enough to demonstrate that the show is more complicated than you seem to take it for. And given the constant surprises BSG has thrown at the viewer, the fact that the claims about everyone in the fleet dying didn't come true doesn't strike me as coming out of left field.



Look, I love this show, but I just don't see how they could have EVER thought they were going to pull of this finale. They should have started answering questions the SECOND that the show came back for this final season. But they kept postponing it, and postponing it, to the point where it was on them to answer EVERY question in 2 hours and like 19 minutes.
I'll agree with that to an extent. The "Final Five" business wore thin for me at times, and there's a reason that at least some people view Gaeda's coup as a welcome interruption from all of the mystery stuff.

[mr.happy]

They were living a rather simple existence on New Caprica, were they not?They were living the existence they could with what ships, medicine, technology, etc, they had, and they were barely scraping by like that, and we're supposed to believe they would willingly go completely native, because Lee had an ill-conceived brain-fart about the evils of civilization?


I'll agree that abandoning the fleet felt rushed, but I don't agree that the general outcome is unbelievable.In the context of how the fleet and what's left of humanity have been portrayed over the course of the series, it was completely and utterly implausible.


Hell, they found a home that they could call Earth. They just spent a very long time cooped up on ships running from one place to the next. Why would they want to travel on them again? To what end?But the choice was not whether or not to keep traveling, obviously they were going to settle down here, but going as far as to abandon all technology and civilization is an outlandish philosophical idea, and we're just supposed to accept that everyone went along with it? Or maybe those who didn't like the idea got to take one last ride with Sam into the sun.

[GWOtaku]

Abandoning tech is not the same as abandoning civilization. But yeah, I will agree that it was rushed and a bit hard to swallow that they would just abandon all the tech. Getting rid of the fleet, though, is something that I can believe very easily.

[mr.happy]

Abandoning tech is not the same as abandoning civilization. But yeah, I will agree that it was rushed and a bit hard to swallow that they would just abandon all the tech. Getting rid of the fleet, though, is something that I can believe very easily.The ships themselves, sure, I suppose, but that still wasn't the proposition here. Everything went. If was back to basics for the sake of making a grandiose and utterly spastic point about the evils of civilization. Lee's whole point was "no cities, we leave it all behind and start over".

[David Lucas]

And where did the last scene take place?

A city.

So even if Lee's heart was in the right place, doesn't that ONE simple fact make his entire idea a failure?

[Wounded_Dragon]

No. The point of ditching technology then was to let "their hearts" catch up, with the hope being that when technology returns, people will be more mature about it this time.

[Ed Liu]

Okay. Stop me if I'm wrong. "Earth" #1 was ruined. What they've arrived at is a different planet that looks...just like Earth #1...it's not the same but they're going to call it Earth anyway, thereby making it Earth #2 basically.

So...we're supposed to accept that two identical planets exist in the universe?

As was mentioned, I don't think we ever really saw Earth 1 to know whether it was supposed to be a twin to Earth 2. I do think that it was close enough that life as we know it could arise in both places. It's a mighty big universe. There's gotta be another planet like ours SOMEWHERE out there.

Besides, if you accept the idea that the show presents of patterns repeating themselves throughout the universe, it's not as far-fetched at all that there's multiple planets with similar environments. For that matter, it occurs to me now that using that as a central theme to the series makes the flashbacks of the finale a better reason for being there -- the only trick now is to see the patterns repeating themselves. Some of them take longer to manifest (like what's the deal with Baltar's father), but all of them seem intended as echoes.


Since the beginning Head Six droned about God's will. And it came to pass, I loved the ending. All the loose ends were tied up nicely except for mystery cylon #13 (the one whom Cavil made ill) that hasn't been revealed. Perhaps in "The Plan" we'll get that answer.
The working theory for that one in our household was that Cylon #13 was Starbuck. The attempt to destroy it failed, but changed enough to flip his gender. Or something. This theory is kind of blown out of the water with the "revelation" of the finale, though. I actually kind of like the fact that we are left completely hanging on who or what Kara is and why she was there and I kind of hope we never find out. There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. Then again, I hope we never find out what happened to Zuko's mom in Avatar, and I think I'm in the minority there, too.

On balance, I liked the finale and the series as a whole more than I didn't. I thought the extended ending that gave all the characters a sense of closure ran for way too long and was even worse in that regard than the Lord of the Rings movies. I still think they were treading water badly for most of season 3 and part of season 4, and they pulled a few too many Giant Reset Buttons for the duration, but I'm happier than not for the ride. We'll probably at least give Caprica a shot in our household.

[I.R Joey]

I liked it.

It kind of tied in with the prolouge of the first series back in the 70's. The idea that "life here began out there."

There were some things I would have liked to have seen resolved though.

[James]

Loved it. Fantastic ending that worked in every way.

Except the last five minutes which was the most ill placed, patronising and poor implemented piece of drama in the entire show. It wasn't needed (particularly Moore's mugging) and as an audience I think we could make the question it posed without it. Leaving it with Adama on the mountain would have been a brilliant end.

The whole Earth thing - I don't see the confusion. It happened before, it will happen again. That creation is guided in circles as much as it's given the chances to break them is part of this mythos. Finding the old Earth of the Colonies, finding the new Earth of the future all made sense. Hell, even the issues of integration and the fact we speak the same language as the colonies all makes sense in this notion that the god(s) drive us in patterns. It all dovetailed as the show's ideology has promised (even if the story was built on the run), that from the micro to the macro, the tale of humanity goes round in very concise circles guided by higher powers.

I thought it really was neatly tied together and beautiful, exciting and dramatic.

As for the burning of technology, you can either take the Cortes homage that RDM cites, or you can simply see it from a purely psychological point - that after years of being couped up in rust-bucket ships, I could see an excited fever taking the civilization on a ideological crusade of natural hope. That feels right to me. This would feel like a gift after all the hell, a real gift of the gods, and I think people could respond to that with a positive hope and a revulsion of the technology that brought them there.

Remember their enemy has been technology. In a way, I can see that creating a social mandate to just avoid technology entirely and by doing so perhaps not have to worry about Cylons again.

Re Cavil - it ran true with me. Stockwell's idea according to Moore. He saw things going down bad and was damned if he was to be captured, pitied or quite simply, lose. It worked for me.

As for Starbuck's role. She was the harbinger of death. Their race died on Earth and new race was born. She brought them to the end, as she was meant to. I don't see an issue there either.

As I said, the only scene I didn't like was the finale one which left the episode with a bitter taste - I just have to remind my self that the hour and 55 minutes preceding was fantastic.

[mr.happy]

Loved it. Fantastic ending that worked in every way.General! Would you care to step outside? :)


The whole Earth thing - I don't see the confusion. It happened before, it will happen again.I wasn't too bothered about the Earth thing. I thought it was an effective slide-of-hand, which fit in just fine with everyhing-that's-happened-before-blah-blah-blah, and I would have probably rated the episode a star or two higher had they pulled a Sopranos ending, as we saw the ship heading towards Earth, but everything that came after this was a bit like how the cool, pretty girl at the party gets just a little bit too drunk at the end of the evening, throws up all over herself, and ends up on the floor in a pool of her own filth with her skirt hiked up around her waits, babbling about how she loves everybody.


As for the burning of technology, you can either take the Cortez homage that RDM cites, or you can simply see it from a purely psychological point - that after years of being couped up in rust-bucket ships, I could see an excited fever taking the civilization on a ideological crusade of natural hope. That feels right to me. This would feel like a gift after all the hell, a real gift of the gods, and I think people could respond to that with a positive hope and a revulsion of the technology that brought them there.You don't know much about people, do you? Even Obama couldn't sell that idea to a race full of Chris Matthews(...es(?)). :) It's such a ridiculous creative leap that ignores not just the episode itself, but virtually everything we've come to know about the people of the fleet over the course of the series. But let's just stick with this episode. What's your take on how they got the hundreds, maybe thousands of wounded to agree to this? Or do you think the VIP-only members of this "new" humanity were chosen on the "raise your hand" basis that (allegedly) sent Sam on a one-way trip into the sun? Remember, it wasn't just "let's leave the ships and stay here".


Remember their enemy has been technology. In a way, I can see that creating a social mandate to just avoid technology entirely and by doing so perhaps not have to worry about Cylons again.I want to be a pyramid scheme salesman in your area. :p Their enemy may have been technology, but for anyone who has paid attention to the show recently, it was quite obvious that once their views on technology changed, when they found that they could co-exist with it, depend on it, even love it. It had been such an important part particularly of Adama and Roslin's path to finally see the Cylons as something other than airlock fodder. This seemed to me not only a more enlightened view, but a far more interesting one than this half-arsed, laa-dee-daa notion of leaving technology behind... except the good stuff, of course. Like Tigh. I mean, we can't do without him. Who else is going to get beer?


As for Starbuck's role. She was the harbinger of death. Their race died on Earth and new race was born. She brought them to the end, as she was meant to. I don't see an issue there either.No, Starbuck was Batman. The Harbinger of Death name was just intended to scare criminals, who, as we all know, are a cowardly and superstitious lot.

Seriously, though, considering what a big deal was made out of the Harbinger of Death thing, and considering how strong and menacing such a title is, the final outcome is as lame a fake-out as the old "I'm going to stand on one hand" and "I'm going to crawl into this bottle" tricks the weak kids at school used to pull to swindle the dumb kids out of their lunch money. So you're going home hungry, and I'm going to beat up RDM for the loot. It's the school-yard food chain. :p

The fact that we have to pretend humanity died should tell you everything you need to know about how weak this rationale is, because they didn't die. Not even in a vaguely symbolic way. They just joined another branch of humanity. Nothing that was inherently unique about their race was left behind or abandoned. If I decide to drop my crappy, poorly compressed MP3 collection in favor of vinyl, does that mean I've died as well? At best you could argue it was a sort of rebirth. Still a stretch, but less than suggesting they died. This might make Starbuck the Harbinger or Rebirth, but that wouldn't have much dramatic effect, would it? It was all just a superficial ruse, nothing more, but maybe less. The fact of the matter is that are far more arguments against humanity dying than there are for it, and they're a billion times more persuasive. So say we all.


As I said, the only scene I didn't like was the finale one which left the episode with a bitter taste - I just have to remind my self that the hour and 55 minutes preceding was fantastic.I wouldn't watch it again sober, if I were you. ;)

[Swordfish_II]

I would have probably rated the episode a star or two higher had they pulled a Sopranos ending, as we saw the ship heading towards Earth

I think that's more pulling a Voyager...

[mr.happy]

I think that's more pulling a Voyager...I don't think I've seen that, but I'm sure it would be less offensive than what BSG did.

[Wounded_Dragon]

I don't think I've seen that, but I'm sure it would be less offensive than what BSG did.

Depends: would you like a lot of time travel hand-waving that contradicts everything else Voyager did with regards to time travel?

[mr.happy]

Depends: would you like a lot of time travel hand-waving that contradicts everything else Voyager did with regards to time travel?Are we talking about the ending or something that happened during the episode?

[Wounded_Dragon]

Are we talking about the ending or something that happened during the episode?

Well technically, the whole episode is a time travel hand wave.

[mr.happy]

Well technically, the whole episode is a time travel hand wave.I still haven't seen it, but Swordfish's comment seemed specifically related to the ending, which I assume had nothing to do with time travel.

As for BSG, it was interesting to see that the ratings for the finale were the best they've had since the season 2 opener. This clearly supports the view that those millions of fans who had disappeared since season 3 hadn't just turned into PVR numbers, like Sci-Fi and BSG fanboys had pretended. Over at TWOP, the finale also got nearly 10 times the season average of votes, and it's probably no coincidence that it's by far and away the worst rated episode of the season.

[Swordfish_II]

I still haven't seen it, but Swordfish's comment seemed specifically related to the ending, which I assume had nothing to do with time travel.

Voyager ends pretty much with the ship flying toward Earth and a small fleet of ships, and Admiral Paris (or whoever, I don't care enough to look it up) saying "Welcome home."

[mr.happy]

Voyager ends pretty much with the ship flying toward Earth and a small fleet of ships, and Admiral Paris (or whoever, I don't care enough to look it up) saying "Welcome home."Well, that actually doesn't sound so terrible for a show like Voyager. I was obviously half-joking about the Sopranos ending for BSG. My point was, almost anything would have been better than the black eye the show gave itself with this idiotic ending.

[Swordfish_II]

Well, that actually doesn't sound so terrible for a show like Voyager. I was obviously half-joking about the Sopranos ending for BSG. My point was, almost anything would have been better than the black eye the show gave itself with this idiotic ending.

I'll take a super cheesy ending over a non-ending any day.

[mr.happy]

I'll take a super cheesy ending over a non-ending any day.Not for BSG. And the people who thought the Sopranos ending was a non-ending are most likely the same people who couldn't work out what it was Meatloaf wouldn't do for love. ;)

[James]

I wasn't too bothered about the Earth thing. I thought it was an effective slide-of-hand, which fit in just fine with everyhing-that's-happened-before-blah-blah-blah, and I would have probably rated the episode a star or two higher had they pulled a Sopranos ending, as we saw the ship heading towards Earth, but everything that came after this was a bit like how the cool, pretty girl at the party gets just a little bit too drunk at the end of the evening, throws up all over herself, and ends up on the floor in a pool of her own filth with her skirt hiked up around her waits, babbling about how she loves everybody.

As I know we've altercate before, I think it comes down to want you look for in a show. Personally I was very happy they stretched out the character farewells. It has always been a character focused show, this seemed a necessity. I hated it in Voyager where there series ended before the most interesting bit - what was the reaction on Earth? How did they fit in when they got back and acclimatise? When so many shows cut short the character repercussions at a series end, I was very glad to get 40 minutes devoted to the farewells. Again, really depends what you want from the show. I think they delivered if you were after character drama and character resolution. If not, yeah, I could see it being a little slow paced.


You don't know much about people, do you? Even Obama couldn't sell that idea to a race full of Chris Matthews(...es(?)). :) It's such a ridiculous creative leap that ignores not just the episode itself, but virtually everything we've come to know about the people of the fleet over the course of the series. But let's just stick with this episode. What's your take on how they got the hundreds, maybe thousands of wounded to agree to this? Or do you think the VIP-only members of this "new" humanity were chosen on the "raise your hand" basis that (allegedly) sent Sam on a one-way trip into the sun? Remember, it wasn't just "let's leave the ships and stay here".


Actually, I'd suggest you presume to know too much about people - particularly people in a situation you've never been in - or anyone for that matter. We're talking about the people left at the bottomend of genocide, having been through years of intense horror and war at the hands of machines. We saw how readily these people laid down their guns for New Caprica. I think its entirely plausible they'd do so again - bitten twice? Who hasn't been bitten twice throughout history. Hell, one could look at our Middle East situation and harken back to Vietnam and query whether lessons are ever learned.

These are people who could easily see this lush planet as a gift, as there survival would in tandem suggest. And with Baltar pushing this point and a final revulsion of all the crap that's gone with technology.. and with the victory against the Cylons.. I can see the general mood being exhalation - the NEED to believe you deserve something better. Yeah, I think its plausible. I don't think it's the only outcome, and no I don't believe 34,100 people landed with no one quibbling. But I think it worked. If the masses were gripped by a euphoria, and so were the command, those uncertain would hardly be in a position to defy it.

So yes, its credible within the fiction we've seen. I imagine it wasn't all happy happy, but just because we don't see the motions doesn't mean they weren't there, simply they were no longer relevant. Command staff and the people euphorically decided to start again and throw it all behind them. I don't think that would be too hard to pitch and I'm sure there were a few hitches.

You don't agree. I don't expect to convince you, I just think its a point worth looking into. Bottomline, that's what happened, that's what the story did. Intellectually I think there is room to get behind the idea without feeling its implausible. You're not dumb to go with this story call but you are equally intellectually in your rights to think otherwise.

I'm no optimist, but I've seen how "the people" can swing and en masse. I could see a near religious ideological euphoria taking hold. A fresh new start when everything else has gone to crap. It would of course lead to death, pain and even more struggle, but the dumb, blind and ideological masses can be a powerful motivator when they want. Never underestimate their power!


I want to be a pyramid scheme salesman in your area. :p Their enemy may have been technology, but for anyone who has paid attention to the show recently, it was quite obvious that once their views on technology changed, when they found that they could co-exist with it, depend on it, even love it. It had been such an important part particularly of Adama and Roslin's path to finally see the Cylons as something other than airlock fodder. This seemed to me not only a more enlightened view, but a far more interesting one than this half-arsed, laa-dee-daa notion of leaving technology behind... except the good stuff, of course. Like Tigh. I mean, we can't do without him. Who else is going to get beer?

No, it showed those at the top accepted the technology. Adama nor Roslin were ever comfortable with the Cylons and there was certainly no evidence the crew accepted them any more than grudgingly (besides Athena and that took time). Yes, working alongside brings acceptance, but I don't think that infers they became to accept some technology as good. Quite the opposite. I think it was that some (and not all) learned to accept some machines as natural, individuals. Adama is an example. He accepted Tigh. He accepted Athena, but he loathed the idea of having Cylon technology on his ship - and he was one of the fleet's chief sympathisers.


Seriously, though, considering what a big deal was made out of the Harbinger of Death thing, and considering how strong and menacing such a title is, the final outcome is as lame a fake-out as the old "I'm going to stand on one hand" and "I'm going to crawl into this bottle" tricks the weak kids at school used to pull to swindle the dumb kids out of their lunch money. So you're going home hungry, and I'm going to beat up RDM for the loot. It's the school-yard food chain. :p

Was it? No one seriously thought she'd kill everyone did they? No, of course not. From the start it was clear it was a misread prophecy. The question was how. This worked. It was a definitive end to civilization, and while we saw the good side, for many, she was a harbinger of death. She took away the second gen Cylon identity forever. She brought the human race to its end as a civilisation. She was the one who quite literary brought death to the Cylon. That seemed a nice twist.


The fact that we have to pretend humanity died should tell you everything you need to know about how weak this rationale is, because they didn't die. Not even in a vaguely symbolic way. They just joined another branch of humanity. Nothing that was inherently unique about their race was left behind or abandoned. If I decide to drop my crappy, poorly compressed MP3 collection in favor of vinyl, does that mean I've died as well? At best you could argue it was a sort of rebirth. Still a stretch, but less than suggesting they died. This might make Starbuck the Harbinger or Rebirth, but that wouldn't have much dramatic effect, would it? It was all just a superficial ruse, nothing more, but maybe less. The fact of the matter is that are far more arguments against humanity dying than there are for it, and they're a billion times more persuasive. So say we all.


If a man is very much defined by his memories and experiences, how is the death of your identity as human or Cylon not death? The race died. Another was born (largely from Hera if we are to be exact, while the notion suggests that Tyrol becomes the blood of the Scottish, Hera is specified as the Eve, the genesis of modern day human and she is neither pure Cylon or human.


I wouldn't watch it again sober, if I were you. ;)

I was perfectly sober thanks. I wish you could take heart knowing that someone who like yourself is educated, reasonably intelligent and a fan of the show can love this episode, that there are a lot of good qualities there. Just simply not the ones you were hoping for.

It has happened before, it will happen again, is the crux of the show and the crux of the finale. I think that was more important than the tiny details one could endless quibble over. It's fiction, its malleable and thereby all is explainable.

If only they hadn't done the crass final minutes this would have been a very good ending to a very complicated series. Might not have been for you, but it was for me - and I'm VERY happy to have ended the show on my side of the fence than yours. Far more satisfying! :)

[mr.happy]

... If not, yeah, I could see it being a little slow paced.I had no real issues with the pacing, just with the illogical nature of it all. It's always been the characters that carried the show, so it seemed fitting to end on character moments rather than big explosions and space visuals, and as much as I hated most of it, as I mentioned earlier, Baltar's little segment did ring true(ish). It seemed like a lot of people expected him to eventually be taken to task for his many misdeeds, but everything that needed to be said about his crimes against humanity were said during the trial, so for someone they obviously ran out of ideas for a long time ago, this was a neat little ending, and well played, I thought.


Actually, I'd suggest you presume to know too much about people - particularly people in a situation you've never been in - or anyone for that matter. We're talking about the people left at the bottomend of genocide, having been through years of intense horror and war at the hands of machines. We saw how readily these people laid down their guns for New Caprica. I think its entirely plausible they'd do so againBut this wasn't just their guns, it wasn't just their ships, it was a philosophical sea change you couldn't even hope to bring about over the course of decades, much less the short period of time they covered in the finale. It was nothing like New Caprica.


And with Baltar pushing this point and a final revulsion of all the crap that's gone with technology.. and with the victory against the Cylons.. I can see the general mood being exhalation - the NEED to believe you deserve something better. Yeah, I think its plausible. I don't think it's the only outcome, and no I don't believe 34,100 people landed with no one quibbling. But I think it worked. If the masses were gripped by a euphoria, and so were the command, those uncertain would hardly be in a position to defy it.Sure they would. Most of the ships in the fleet were completely independent from the military rule, and could easily have decided to do things their own way. These are people we've often seen push each other to the brink of civil war over food, fuel, and any number of minor issues, and for a show that prides itself on its realism and attention to detail, it's simply unforgiveable to gloss over as major a point as this for the sake of making a profoundly naive statement, not to mention how insulting a comment on humanity it is to suggest there's such a lack of nuance in terms of reaction to such a propositon.


I'm no optimist, but I've seen how "the people" can swing and en masse. I could see a near religious ideological euphoria taking hold. A fresh new start when everything else has gone to crap. It would of course lead to death, pain and even more struggle, but the dumb, blind and ideological masses can be a powerful motivator when they want. Never underestimate their power!Indeed, but the dumb, blind, ideological/religious masses are in most cases ruled or lead by fear and insecurity. That's why they cling to such illusions and crutches in the first place, and as a result, often end up making decision that are not what could objectively be considered good, right or smart. You could never convince the fleet we've come to know to abandon technology the way they did to go live in a cave. It just doesn't work.


No, it showed those at the top accepted the technology. Adama nor Roslin were ever comfortable with the Cylons and there was certainly no evidence the crew accepted them any more than grudgingly (besides Athena and that took time).And there's the key. Time. The show had taken the time to let its characters change their perceptions of the Cylons. This was completely believable. This was a sea change that did play out over a long period of time, and which had all the ups and downs you would expect from such a scenario. The idea of going native on Earth had no such attention to detail, no dramatic momentum, and no logical catalyst. It just happened, because it was once again a question of getting from A to B, and the inbetween be damned.


Was it? No one seriously thought she'd kill everyone did they?That she would personally kill everyone? No, that's not what a harbinger is.


No, of course not. From the start it was clear it was a misread prophecy. The question was how. This worked. It was a definitive end to civilization, and while we saw the good side, for many, she was a harbinger of death. She took away the second gen Cylon identity forever. She brought the human race to its end as a civilisation. She was the one who quite literary brought death to the Cylon. That seemed a nice twist.But that doesn't work either. Like I said earlier, you can sort of vaguely make the ambiguity of this title fit with every literal or symbolic death in the show, and then the whole thing just becomes meaningless. This makes it an "oh, is that all?" as opposed to an "ah, that's really clever". And that's disappointing for a show that claims to be one of the smartest things on TV.


If a man is very much defined by his memories and experiences, how is the death of your identity as human or Cylon not death?But that's just not what happened. The humans still had their memories and experiences, and they remained humans, just humans without their toys. The few Cylons who joined the party were skinjobs, who had already integrated with humanity before that, so if that's a symbolic death to you, it actually happened a long time ago. And the Cylon centurions are still out there. Out of sight may be out of mind, but it's still not the end of the race. I kind of felt like maybe the Harbinger of Death thing might have tied into Baltar's nonsense about angels and immortality, and that Starbuck in a sense might have been the first true believer to gain immortality, which would at least have made some kind of sense without her having to bring about the actual death of the human or Cylon race, but this lame everything-you-think-it-means-is-totally-right ending may have been satisfying to some, but it sure wasn't smart in any creative or intellectual sense.


I was perfectly sober thanks. I wish you could take heart knowing that someone who like yourself is educated, reasonably intelligent and a fan of the show can love this episode, that there are a lot of good qualities there. Just simply not the ones you were hoping for.I don't mind that you liked the ending. If you were to admit most of it didn't make a lot of sense, but that you thought it was nice anyway, you wouldn't get much of a fight from me, but the defense of the show's shortcomings over the last couple of seasons have to me been curiously nonsensical. And I know you're not stupid, but I just wonder if years of enjoying much of what I consider mediocre and outright crap sci-fi means maybe you didn't quite see as much potential in BSG as I at one point did? As such, you could easily be forgiven for enjoying how much better than Dr. Who and B5 this was. And it really was.


It has happened before, it will happen again, is the crux of the show and the crux of the finale. I think that was more important than the tiny details one could endless quibble over. It's fiction, its malleable and thereby all is explainable.My problem is that it's just too easy. There's no great sophistication, no great depth to the ending. It was so much less than what the show used to be. To me, the show that once stood out from the crowd ended up submerging itself too deep in the banalities of the genre, certainly as far as the finale was concerned. I think we just disagree about the point at which it became fully submerged. I say it wasn't just the last few minutes with the intolerable RDM cameo. :)


If only they hadn't done the crass final minutes this would have been a very good ending to a very complicated series. Might not have been for you, but it was for me - and I'm VERY happy to have ended the show on my side of the fence than yours. Far more satisfying! :)I don't know about that. It's no secret that I like to complain, so it's really a win-win for me. :)

Still, as much as I've ranted against BSG for the last two seasons, I certainly feel like I'm better off for having experienced the first two seasons, and I maintain that Pegesus was one of the finest TV episodes of any genre ever produced, but like I've said before in my overly dramatic Adama-like way, the ending of season 2 and subsequent season 3 just broke my little TV heart. It seemed as if the things the show had previously done with effortless and sometimes unintentional grace had suddenly become far more forced, labored and deliberate, as RDM started believing his own hype and tried too hard to live up to it, and I just lost all faith as it gradually became obvious that the writers' plan was as non-existent as that of the Cylons, and this was never more evident than in the finale.

[Ed Liu]

Except the last five minutes which was the most ill placed, patronising and poor implemented piece of drama in the entire show. It wasn't needed (particularly Moore's mugging) and as an audience I think we could make the question it posed without it. Leaving it with Adama on the mountain would have been a brilliant end.
Well, for what it's worth, I thought the thing would have been poorer without that coda at the end. Ending with Adama on the mountaintop makes the whole thing about the crew of the Galactica. Ending by linking what seems to be the present day with what they went through ends on a question, and one which the show is choosing not to answer. Are we repeating the same mistakes, or is this time actually different? And how can we tell? In doing so, it ends up being an ending for the show, and a beginning for discussion.

At least, that's how I saw it. Plus, anything that gets Tricia Helfer back into the red dress isn't something I'll turn down easily ;).

[Brekkie]

Just a heads up folks. They are playing the entire season finale tomorrow night. That includes part 1. Ironically this is what Ron Moore wanted int eh first place.

[James]

Well, for what it's worth, I thought the thing would have been poorer without that coda at the end. Ending with Adama on the mountaintop makes the whole thing about the crew of the Galactica. Ending by linking what seems to be the present day with what they went through ends on a question, and one which the show is choosing not to answer. Are we repeating the same mistakes, or is this time actually different? And how can we tell? In doing so, it ends up being an ending for the show, and a beginning for discussion.

At least, that's how I saw it. Plus, anything that gets Tricia Helfer back into the red dress isn't something I'll turn down easily ;).

I just felt those questions were implicit and didn't need posing. But that's me. As we can see, we all have didn't perspectives on the show and I wouldn't look to invalidate any.

I guess the scene was one of the only scenes I felt was "written". The set-up, the dialogue, it just didn't flow from the series we know and I think it was tonally just too "on it's own" for me to get behind. Perhaps it was because we had two fictional characters slipped into a "real life" world, and suddenly they feel like players rather than actual people.

I think there were a lot of reasons why - personally - that last scene jarred, but I think the core problem was it shattered my suspension of disbelief!

[DarkAngel]

Loved it. Fantastic ending that worked in every way.

As I said, the only scene I didn't like was the finale one which left the episode with a bitter taste - I just have to remind my self that the hour and 55 minutes preceding was fantastic.
Finally saw the finale. Watched all three hours last night.

Pretty much agree with you, James. I won't say I found the final minutes "bitter", but it didn't seem to flow well from the preceding couple hours and felt included more out of necessity than anything else. But for that reason, I think it had to be included. Fans wanted the "head" characters to be addressed in some way, and I think it added more context to Thrace's disappearance as well.

I'm very pleased, though. It came together pretty well. I've got a lotta thoughts, and hopefully I can drop back in here later today to get those out.

[DarkAngel]

Ok, here are some thoughts. Not particularly organized, but I wanted to get some of them down. I'll probably think of other things and jump in with those later.

Let me start off with this:

"I think you overestimate their chances."

:D Oh man. I was so not expecting to hear that. So very cool. The only thing that would have made it better is if they could have found a way to put those words in Cavil's mouth. I would have loved to have seen him "Tarkined". :) But hey, in the end, I guess he got his anyway.

Well, it all came together really nicely. I enjoyed the flashbacks. Given the cyclical nature of the show, the theme of repeated events, it was nice to re-connect with the beginning of the show and see these characters as they were back then. Certainly did bring things full circle, and what a great way to do it by showing us things we hadn't seen.

The entire rescue segment was done very well, so much so that I don't know that I could pick a favorite moment. Visually, I loved seeing the opera house again and the characters' movements in it parallel their movement through Galactica. And the sight of the Final Five up their was both awe-inspiring and chilling. Anders at center in that hybrid setup was just creepy. It built up really nicely to all hell breaking loose when Tyrol went for Tory. Cavil's end seemed fitting. Loved his "Frak" followed by the gun to the mouth. The quickness with which he surveyed the situation and offed himself played really well. But man, did I think they were all doomed after that.

I'm always thrilled to hear their version of Watchtower, so I enjoyed hearing the music kick in as Kara entered in the jump coordinates. And overall, as always, the music was outstanding. I'll have to be certain to grab that season 4 soundtrack.

Before I forget, very nice scene between Cottle and Laura earlier. I don't think there are any words I could use to do it justice. The scene speaks for itself.

But, getting back to the action, as excellent as it was, the real meat and potatoes was everything that followed. Ultimately, a show like this is about the characters and I enjoyed seeing where they all ended up.

Seeing them discover the new Earth and make it their home was more than appropriate. With Cavil's forces defeated, the timing was finally right for them to settle down with less of a sense of fear. The planet was clearly perfect, a vast improvement over what New Caprica offered, and I can only imagine the sheer exhiliration that entire populace must have felt in finally being able to abandon the decaying metal cans they'd been forced to endure "life" in over the previous few years. Lee's barely contained emotion at the thought of exploring and climbing mountains was probably a perfect glimpse at what they all felt, a well-deserved arrival at freedom and a true chance at a beautiful life.

The "answers" regarding the head characters and Kara weren't what I expected, but that all felt near-perfect as well. Leaving it open to our interpretation is, I think, for the best. Regardless of how we reason it out, I love the idea of Kara having died last season and the uncertainty of what/who it was we've been watching. It certainly feels tied in with whatever head Six and Baltar are. Angels? Demons? Cylons or humans who have been using advanced resurrection technology? And maybe some kind of cloaking technology as well? :) I don't know. And I think I'm glad I don't.

I used the description "near-perfect" for the final minutes because I didn't feel they flowed well out of everything that went before it. Felt more obligatory, something included out of necessity. Except, I'm not sure it was necessary. The only thing I gained from that was the knowledge that those two were still "alive" 150,000 years later. Not sure that makes that scene necessary. But, not an episode breaker.

Looking at season 4 as a whole, I like that they reconnected with a lot things begun in season 1, such as Gaeta/Baltar, Zarek and his reach for power, Tyrol/Boomer, the cylon attempts to procreate/Helo-Athena/Hera, etc.. I think my favorites from this season were the Kara/Demetrius episodes, Revelations/the arrival at Earth/the aftermath of that, Gaeta and Zarek's coup, and of course the finale. I liked that they moved into a very serialized flow as the season began and loved where they arrived at mid-season. Completely threw me, as I was expecting Earth to be found late in the season. That left me with no idea where they were headed for the second half of the season, which was great. And as it turns out, it was a hiding-in-plain-sight kind of thing as Earth was, still, the end point. I also appreciated the easy, natural flow of the episodes leading up to Daybreak. Very nice to see episodes focused on the characters and ship rather than on hectic action leading up to the big finale.

I'm not sure where I rank season 4 with the rest. It's a contender for favorite season. Even before this, I was uncertain whether I preferred the 2nd or 3rd seasons, and this only confuses the matter. But its a nice problem to have. Given that a lot of the endpoints of the journey were here, that gives 4 a definite boost.

Favorite arcs of the series:
-the Adama/military vs Roslin stuff from early season 2
-Pegasus
-New Caprica
-Everything revolving around the Final Five
-mid-season 4 Earth stuff
-Final episode

Favorite episodes:
-Pegasus/Resurrection Ship I: These were like the Best of Both Worlds of BSG. Gripping all the way through, great cliffhangers, outstanding acting and plotting.
-33: Hell of a way to begin the series. The cylons relentless pursuit just drove this one.
-Kobol's Last Gleaming II: The final moments define this one for me. I was simply stunned by Boomer's quick succession of bullets into Adama.
-Occupation and Exodus II: The former intensity of the situation on NC under cylon rule and the latter for Pegasus' arrival and the blaze of glory with which it went out in.
-Revelations: Loved the standoff between Lee and D'Anna and the surprise arrival at Earth.
-Sometimes a Great Notion: This is about as despairing as we've seen things, but handled beautifully throughout.
-Daybreak: For much of the reasons mentioned above. Great finish to a great show.

There are, of course, so many others, but these are the ones coming to mind now.

Favorite characters: Baltar, Lee Adama, Tigh, D'Anna. Each for different reasons and its hard to pick one. I think Baltar was defined for me by Callis' performances. His was an unusual character swimming in seemingly opposing motivations, often amusing and always captivating. With Lee, I loved the journey and his constantly evolving role. If I'm to pick a favorite among all those, its his stint as Pegasus commander. With Tigh, I always loved Hogan's performance. He stood out to me during the mini-series, but seemed to disappear as the first season developed. I was really glad to see his role greatly pick up with NC and even moreso as he was revealed to be one of the 5. With D'Anna, I think it was all Lucy Lawless. Never particularly cared for Xena or recognized what anyone saw in Lawless there, but she completely won me over with her first appearance on BSG. Pretty much loved every moment she was on screen.

I feel pretty fortunate to have seen both this and The Shield. Difficult to see both end over this past year, but glad for all the excellence they brought forth. The Shield probably has a permanent place as the best I've seen. BSG probably takes the top spot as my favorite series. I'm not sure there's anything in recent memory that I consider close to either of these. Now I'm not sure what I'll be looking forward to on tv. 24 will have to do, I guess. Or maybe I'll finally check out Lost on dvd or The Wire. Or, hell, The Sopranos, which I still haven't seen.

DA

[James]

Great to read your thoughts DA. And I agree, great stuff. I must say while I loved season three and four, as a whole, they weren't as relevant to the story as one and two (though in fact, I wouldn't necessarily say they were any less watchable). Not surprising. Rare for a show to be otherwise. I see BSG as a two season show that was extended to four. If you think about it, all the characters had naturally done their stuff by New Caprica. While there would be naturally a resolution yet to be played, seasons three and four to me was television because we wanted it not because we needed it. If you look at Roslin, Lee, Baltar and Athena, their character roles had been realistically explored by the end of New Caprica. Starbuck descended into depression and died and I can't think of any major we learned about Adama or even the cylon plan post New Caprica. You could have caped an ending three episodes out of New Caprica and I think the show would have worked very well. So season three and four were gratituous pleasure - and I'm so glad they were, because there was so much I loved in them. The Final Five, Kat's death, Starbuck's death, the mutiny.. the discovery of dead Earth, the death of Dee... lots that for me was pure entertainment. But narratively, you can see its a different show, a show looking to do what it should - stay alive because people want it to.

My best moments?

New Caprica - it was a hard watch, but a choice I admired and felt was necessary for the show. As I've just said, BSG felt to me to be a far shorter concept if it was to keep to its "realistic" vibe and not descend into monster/dilemma-of-the-week format. I think after New Caprica was a bold way to reboot the character inter-relationships and I think it worked.

Reveal of the Final Five - I was surprised (and who wouldn't be? Even the writers hadn't considered it until shortly before writing the episode), but it was a benchmark of jaw dropping television. So it did shift the overall illusion of reality within the show, but televisions is a creature of moments more than legacy, and that was a moment I'll never forget.

The standoff with Pegasus - A great mid-season cliffhanger full of tension and ambiguity. Unforgettable.

Hand of God - brilliant remake of the original Galactica's final episode. Highlight of season one.

Galactica's atmosphere drop - can't beat it for its sheer tenacity. A great moment and one of those heroic events that actually does have long lasting repercussions for the ship itself.

Gaeta and the mutiny - that was shocking, brutal and a hard watch seeing hero against hero rather than cylon vs cylon.

Death of Roslin - beautifully handled and worth the four season wait! Superb actress.

There is a great collection of comments (http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2009/04/mind-meld-battlestar-galactica-finale-draft/) by professional writers I found here. Worth a read. Diverse opinion - at least one for everyone! Or if you want more of my gabble, I've lumped it on my blog. (http://jsmclean.blogspot.com/)

[DarkAngel]

Starbuck descended into depression and died and I can't think of any major we learned about Adama or even the cylon plan post New Caprica. You could have caped an ending three episodes out of New Caprica and I think the show would have worked very well.
Regarding the cylon plan, we learned something incredibly significant as far as Cavil's motivations regarding the Five. I think that colors everything. But to your larger point, yes, they could have ended 3 episodes out from NC, perhaps, but I don't think there's a certain rigid number of storylines they had to tick off before closing out. Or a certain number of seasons to complete before reaching that end.

The journey's more important than simply getting to the conclusion, and so I'd say the most important thing was that they explore as fully as possible the many things that could grow out of this situation. If they finished in two years, I don't know that I'd feel they accomplished that. I'd feel it was rushed.

At heart, I'd say this show was about what it truly is to be human. What, if any, differences truly separate humans from cylons? Putting aside what they're physically composed of, might they in all other ways be the same? I think it was incredibly important to get to the point where some of the cylons had joined the fleet, where the issue came up of whether that's right or not and could they co-exist. They had only just started to scratch the surface of that with humans and cylons on NC (a disaster), and built/developed that to get to the point of Lee and D'Anna moving together toward Earth and that faction of cylons joining humanity in a way that was lightyears ahead of what happend on NC. I think that's all just as relevant as anything seen in seasons 1-2 and I don't see how that could have been shoved into the first couple years while still doing it justice and wrapping up this "two season show".

I guess the way I feel is that there's any number of things that could happen and that the fleet could encounter/deal with on a journey like this. There's no reason to put a two year limit on it or say that only a certain number of arcs should be developed before ending. I think, as I was saying above, that the latter two years did far more to explore what it is to be human and the humanity present in both races than the previous two years and I can't imagine not having that in the series.


Hand of God - brilliant remake of the original Galactica's final episode. Highlight of season one.
I'm not too familiar with the original. What did the original episode involve? I've also gotta ask you about something else. I've heard mention of "beings of Light" or something similar from the original BSG. What did that have to do with?


There is a great collection of comments (http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2009/04/mind-meld-battlestar-galactica-finale-draft/) by professional writers I found here. Worth a read. Diverse opinion - at least one for everyone! Or if you want more of my gabble, I've lumped it on my blog. (http://jsmclean.blogspot.com/)
I will definitely check out both. Look forward to reading your blog.

[Wounded_Dragon]

There was a man with incredible powers that promised the fleet many impossible things. He was named Count Iblis. He used to be one of the "beings of light" but was cast down and made to follow certain rules, chief among them being given dominion over those who gave themselves to him. The beings of light then revived Apollo, who Iblis had killed in violation of the rules, and gave the fleet the way to Earth. I believe there was also a throwaway line or two where the beings hoped that the humans would someday join them or something like that.

Hence why I was mystified at people being surprised how the BSG remake decided to end.

[James]

There was a man with incredible powers that promised the fleet many impossible things. He was named Count Iblis. He used to be one of the "beings of light" but was cast down and made to follow certain rules, chief among them being given dominion over those who gave themselves to him. The beings of light then revived Apollo, who Iblis had killed in violation of the rules, and gave the fleet the way to Earth. I believe there was also a throwaway line or two where the beings hoped that the humans would someday join them or something like that.

Hence why I was mystified at people being surprised how the BSG remake decided to end.

Precisely. Okay, the new show gave to steer away from absolutes (light and dark) as the original did, but there was no doubt the Head Sixs were a reference to that mythology, nor the real question of destiny - all prevalent in the franchise's makeup.

I liked the fact the didn't do "light and dark", that was a nice surprise that fit nicely with the series ambiguity. For a while I was wondering whether Head Six was good or bad, when in fact, she was neither. That was a nice touch respectfully taking the material of the old series and re-grafting it for the new.

[DarkAngel]

Thanks for the info, guys. Interesting stuff. So it sounds like Starbuck dying and coming back with the way to Earth was inspired or loosely based on the events surrounding Apollo's death/return in the original. I'll have to check out the original BSG at some point. I've seen episodes in the past, but hardly remember much.

Also, regarding the finale, wanted to throw out one random thought and a question:

Interesting that Tyrol and Tory were a couple in their previous lives. Don't think either could have possibly imagined he'd one day kill her. But Cavil had to ruin everything by blocking their access to their memories and allowing all that to happen. Of course, that doesn't excuse Tory's action and I quite enjoyed Tyrol's reaction and revenge. :)

The question: Do we know how Anders knew where Hera was being held? I remember Adama going to see Kara and wanting some question posed to Sam. How did Sam know whatever it was Adama needed to move ahead with the rescue effort?

[James]

Thanks for the info, guys. Interesting stuff. So it sounds like Starbuck dying and coming back with the way to Earth was inspired or loosely based on the events surrounding Apollo's death/return in the original. I'll have to check out the original BSG at some point. I've seen episodes in the past, but hardly remember much.

As far as I can tell, it was inspired by the idea mooted for the flop follow-on series BSG 1980. In the final episode Starbuck is marrooned on a desolate planet with a Cylon (sound familar to an episode in season one?). The story and episode leaves him marrooned there, though his good deeds may have redeemed him from his dubious lifestyle. The notion was to be carried out if the series had continued with Starbuck being one of the original series' "Beings of Light". So essentially, Starbuck's destiny in the original show was very much connected with their angels - even if it never got to play out.



The question: Do we know how Anders knew where Hera was being held? I remember Adama going to see Kara and wanting some question posed to Sam. How did Sam know whatever it was Adama needed to move ahead with the rescue effort?

That was an leap - a leap I presume was in the longer cut but considered comparatively irrelevant in the aired cut (which given the scene would simply have Anders inform us he knows where the colony is, isn't exactly pivitol in itself).

No, we don't know. Perhaps it was simply that the hybrids have a loose precognitive ability - offering signs and portents within the jargon. I assume his gabble helped pin down the location. Perhaps something about a black hole made the location easy to pinpoint.

[wonderfly]

Okay, I'm trying to do this without reading any recent posts, (I'm still a few episodes behind) but I recorded on my TIVO a "Daybreak pt. 2"...which is 2 hours long. Is "Daybreak pt. 1" 2 hours as well, making for a 4 hour Series finale? Or is Daybreak a 2 hour episode?

[DarkAngel]

Okay, I'm trying to do this without reading any recent posts, (I'm still a few episodes behind) but I recorded on my TIVO a "Daybreak pt. 2"...which is 2 hours long. Is "Daybreak pt. 1" 2 hours as well, making for a 4 hour Series finale? Or is Daybreak a 2 hour episode?
Daybreak is 3 hours total, but was shown in two parts. Part 1 was 1 hour and part 2 was 2 hours.

[wonderfly]

Daybreak is 3 hours total, but was shown in two parts. Part 1 was 1 hour and part 2 was 2 hours.

Which means I missed an episode somehow. :sad: Ah well, I can bear to watch one episode online, (on Scifi's pitiful website)...

[DarkAngel]

So essentially, Starbuck's destiny in the original show was very much connected with their angels - even if it never got to play out.

You know, I'm gonna make it a point to watch the original when I have a chance. It'll be great to see what inspired a lot of the stuff on the new show. And it should be a kick to see a younger Hatch. That was where I first saw him, but now I have him firmly associated with Tom Zarek, so it'll be interesting to see him as Apollo.


Perhaps it was simply that the hybrids have a loose precognitive ability - offering signs and portents within the jargon. I assume his gabble helped pin down the location. Perhaps something about a black hole made the location easy to pinpoint.
Signs and portents. That reminds me...I need to finish watching the 5th season of B5 when I have time.

Well, some more random BSG musings: I was thinking about the theme of repeating cycles and found it both interesting and cool to consider the confrontations with D'Anna in Revelations and Cavil in Daybreak. In both standoffs, the offer was made from humanity to break the cycle of violence. In both cases it was accepted. But D'Anna made it out alive and the fleet proceeds with incredibly high spirits, only to find themselves emotionally broken by a devastated Earth. While in Daybreak, Cavil dies, all hell breaks loose, hope for a positive ending seems potentially lost...and then they find the new, perfect Earth. Nothing groundbreaking, but that occurred to me and I liked the parallels and slight differences.

Now I know there was something else on my mind. A question about something. But it won't come to me. Well, if I remember it, I'll pose the question later.

[James]

You know, I'm gonna make it a point to watch the original when I have a chance. It'll be great to see what inspired a lot of the stuff on the new show. And it should be a kick to see a younger Hatch. That was where I first saw him, but now I have him firmly associated with Tom Zarek, so it'll be interesting to see him as Apollo.


I think it was a show that wasn't "ahead of its time" as many fans will suggest, but a good idea trapped in the ideology, necessity and constructs of 70s television. Like with all Larson productions, you're almost better off watching the pilot and then dropping the show. Knight Rider, Buck Rogers and Battlestar are all better in pilot than show (and Larson's mate Bellisario's Airwolf was never more intelligent as it was in the pilot). They are all maturer and less prone to 80s trappings.

That said, with BSG, there were stories that did recapture the brilliance of the pilot. I recommend Saga of a Star World (the full pilot), Fire In Space, Hand of God, War of the Gods, Living Legend, Lost Planet of the Gods, Return of Starbuck (from BSG: 1980) and Man with Nine Lives. All of them have a lot of potential (and you'll find links to the new show in Hand of God (similar plot), Living Legend (Pegasus), Lost Planet of the Gods (Kobol) and Man with Nine Lives (Starbuck's father (?)) and Return of Starbuck (Starbuck's marrooned).

They're worth watching I think just to show what homage the new show kept to the original's mythology as much as the visuals. The rest of the one season is pretty dire, getting worse for its final third where the money is running dry and the networks are meddling. So you have a show which is 40% pretty good, 10% average 80s entertainment and 40% dire!

But you may think differently! Expect little and get a lot!


Signs and portents. That reminds me...I need to finish watching the 5th season of B5 when I have time.

Bought the boxset myself! Watching season two at the moment. Very enjoyable. Forgotten how much I liked Sinclair. Sheridan's more dynamic, but with Sinclair, I feel the weight of a space station on his shoulders where John I don't.


Well, some more random BSG musings: I was thinking about the theme of repeating cycles and found it both interesting and cool to consider the confrontations with D'Anna in Revelations and Cavil in Daybreak. In both standoffs, the offer was made from humanity to break the cycle of violence. In both cases it was accepted. But D'Anna made it out alive and the fleet proceeds with incredibly high spirits, only to find themselves emotionally broken by a devastated Earth. While in Daybreak, Cavil dies, all hell breaks loose, hope for a positive ending seems potentially lost...and then they find the new, perfect Earth. Nothing groundbreaking, but that occurred to me and I liked the parallels and slight differences.


Yes, I think there are a lot of parallels in the show, many probably aren't even intention, which is perhaps indicative of the nature circles that preside in storytelling - and I like that, it underpins the very truth of the show's message: nothing is new, nothing is groundbreaking in the general scheme of things, people are people and we constantly go round making the same mistakes generation after generation and think somehow we're different.

[DarkAngel]

Like with all Larson productions, you're almost better off watching the pilot and then dropping the show.
I was wondering if that'd be the case. And also wondering whether that's why, despite his interest, no seems willing to take him up on doing movies of his properties. I recall hearing talk of Knight Rider and A-team movies, but nothing seems to have materialized. And now it seems to be starting again with BSG movie talk. We'll see, I guess.

I watched the first of the 3-part opener, and I like it so far. A minor quibble would be with the Starbuck/Athena scene and the quickness with which they (or at least Starbuck) seem to have adjusted to the loss of the colonies. I realize it is early, though, and Starbuck's defensive reaction might be to shut out the emotion over it.

It's good stuff, though. I'll keep what you said in mind and at the least hit the episodes you recommended.


Bought the boxset myself! Watching season two at the moment. Very enjoyable. Forgotten how much I liked Sinclair. Sheridan's more dynamic, but with Sinclair, I feel the weight of a space station on his shoulders where John I don't.
I liked Sinclair, but I guess I can understand why there might have been the desire to replace O'Hare. Though I only saw the first few episodes of the 5th season, I actually much preferred Tracy Scoggins to Boxleitner.

And hey, I checked out your BSG thoughts on your blog. Very entertaining read. I'll be posting some thoughts/comments when I have time. Might not be until next weekend, but I'll get 'em in here.

Oh, and I remembered my question. I might have asked this at some point before. Back in that episode when we got the backstory regarding the Five, did they say they were able to procreate? Because I know there was a war on Earth and hence the destruction, but I can't imagine the Centurions would have been fighting themselves (would they?). And it wouldn't seem like much of a fair fight if it was the Centurions vs only 5 skinsjobs. We did see other people on the planet in those flashbacks of the 5 on Earth, right?