Buffy The Vampire Slayer

[The Game]

With the season sets coming out, it got me thinking- what do you peeps think of the show? I was crazy about it up until the fourth season- where I lost interest and I've only been an avid fan since.

What do you think of it?

[Salvor]

Well I started watching as of season 5... I caught up with the first seasons: to me season 1 was terrible, season 2 was great, season 3 was half decent, 4 was terrible... season 5 was excellent and now I love season 6. The show has become much darker than before, the characters have become a lot more ambiguous... the show itself has become a lot more subtle.

Just out of curiosity, how does Willow being a lesbian stand for a reason not to watch the show anymore?

[James]

I enjoyed series 1, 2 and 3 - I thought they were excellent. Series 4 fell totally flat for me. I'm not a prude, but I really had no interest in Buffy-and-her-episodes-regarding-her-rather-gross-sex-life-routine. Plus I think they seperated the characters too much.

I recall one of the actors saying that Joss Whedon had been told by the studio to cut down on the violence - which he did by upping the sex. Personally I thought it made a dull and predictable season and Adam didn't help much either.

The Willow/Tara thing I'm alright with, although their dialogue of late is a little over gooey as if the point that they are seeing each other and having sex must be re-enforced. Not sure if thats because the show is restricted on how it deals with gay issues or just to titilate the male fans, but it does come accross rather false - IMO, I know there is a great Willow/Tara following out there and I'm a great fan of Amber Benson who I met last year. A fun and attractive personality.

Since series 4, for me, it has been uphill. Thankfully series 1 of Angel was excellent which meant I could pretty much ignore Buffy, but series 5 found the track once more and brought the characters closer together as group. While series 6 has not been big on plot it has been big on character building and again is shaping up rather well. Good stuff, but no, I'm not a huge SMG fan - nor a Buffy-the-character fan. Spike has been consitantly excellent I must say.

(BTW, in the UK we have only just had the musical episode - so be CAREFUL with the spoilers please!?! :D)

[Nightflower]

Originally posted by Salvor
Well I started watching as of season 5... I caught up with the first seasons: to me season 1 was terrible, season 2 was great, season 3 was half decent, 4 was terrible... season 5 was excellent and now I love season 6. The show has become much darker than before, the characters have become a lot more ambiguous... the show itself has become a lot more subtle.

Just out of curiosity, how does Willow being a lesbian stand for a reason not to watch the show anymore?

Because she was an established heterosexual (If you want to know how, I'm going to pull up my rant, I'm warning you now :)) before the show pulled a 180, and now seems to be there only to add "political correctness" and "guys, check it out, lesbians!"

I watched up to the first three seasons, and lost interest after that. Season one was okay, everything was a lot simpler. I thought season two was AMAZING- it was angst, but if you had followed the show and what the characters went through, you could understand them! I have great appreciation for anything that makes me feel for angsty people. Season three was kind of disorganized, but still much better than the later seasons.

I don't like Buffy because it's lost its direction. Slaying vampires got old quickly, and both the viewers and the writers realized that apocalypse-per-season-finales wouldn't work. I thought season 2 nicely (if indirectly) showed the responsibilities and consequences of sex, when Buffy did it once, and wound up with six months of mental torment from Angel. Season four... entire episode devoted to sex! I thought that was bad enough. Season six.... most episodes run the formula of "plot_joke_plot_SEX_plot_plot_characterdevelopment_plot". And it just seemed to me that the sex was thrown in.... for the sake of it. I think it's called gratuitous? :P

When I was a wee 14 y/o, I thought Buffy was a great role model. Sassy, strong, emotional, but also could control them if the situation calls for it. But she's a complete vampire layer now. :P

[Watagashi]

Never seen it. Don't care to.

[Salvor]

Originally posted by Nightflower
Because she was an established heterosexual (If you want to know how, I'm going to pull up my rant, I'm warning you now :)) before the show pulled a 180, and now seems to be there only to add "political correctness" and "guys, check it out, lesbians!"

She was an established heerosexual? So what? Things happen... A friend of mine (actually two friends of mine) thought he was an established heterosexual until he found out he was a lot more at ease with men.

Of course it's "political correctness". But most shows do that now. So it's up to who's best at it. And unlike shows like ER, I think BTVS managed to come up with a plausible and interesting relationship.

SJJ, don't read the spoiler :):
As for the sex being gratuitous in season 6, I disagree again. It's a lot more ambiguous than it seems. The sex is a means for the writers to convey Bufy's current fears, and how he has to deal with her becoming a grown-up and a responsible person. Obviously she still has to come to grips with her own contradictions.

[Sumi_Masen]

The only reason I watch it(at least now) is because of Spike......he's so great..........

[The Game]

Again, I'm in the same boat as SSJ- for me it all came down at Season 4.

Willow being a Lesbian bothers me because there was no reason for it. She had a crush on Xander, then went out with Oz, and suddenly she's a lesbian. What's up with that? That- coupled with several other major changes, like Angel and Coredlia leaving (sorry, but they really are two of the best characters) made it tough. They were replaced with Riley and Spike and I just didn't buy it. The show lost its familiarity and characterization.

And things are still changning. Where's Giles?

It's still not a horrible show, but I think its best season have long passed with 2 and 3.

[James]

yeah, the Willow thing was oddly done. People can change sexual orientation very dramatically and suddenly realise that they are attracted to the opposite. However, the Willow thing did seem a bit odd. Her relationship with Oz (sexually) did seem very comfortable. I did wonder if the character was bisexual but since they have made it clear that she is totally homosexual.

I'm sure things happen like this, but it just didn't come across as well thought out. Anyway, I can cope with the Willow/Tara situation - it does seem a little artifical at time, but I don't think it has any real negative effect on the show. Plus the fact that Whedon's writing team is consistantly excellent and occasionally ground breaking makes up for the occasional wooden dialogue..

I miss the Mayor. He was an excellent character - I always thought they might bring him back..

Thanks for the spoiler shroud Salvor! Very much appreciated!

[Failure]

Let's see I thought season 1 was pretty good. Season 2 and 3 were good, but they annoyed the heck out of me. I just couldn't enjoy it. I don't ever want to see Buffy and Angel together, in any crossovers, nothing. This is why I'm glad they split networks. The type and amount of angst those two bring is absolutely unwatchable, to put it nicely. Season 4 was crap. I thought that whole initiative thing reminded me of the Power Rangers. Season 5 was my favorite season. Especially the last few eps of the season finale. Greatest eps in my book, Buffy's death was... Wow, talk about an emotional punch. And this season, let's just say except for the first 2 or 3 eps, it's pretty much sucked.

Why is it that I find most of the characters in Buffy so unlikeable. I mean, anyone and everyone on that show I've disliked at some point. But on Angel, I love everyone on that show and haven't wavered.

[Chibi Kageboshi]

I love this show. this new season is sort of has no plot at the moment besides willow not being able to use magiv, buffy a "demon" and her sisters a mess. what they need is a big powered vampire to show up and start killing. AND the whole Willow being a lesbo does bother me, i never have liked Tara cause shes just a bad actress although she has gotten better these last few episodes.

[James]

Originally posted by Failure
Why is it that I find most of the characters in Buffy so unlikeable. I mean, anyone and everyone on that show I've disliked at some point. But on Angel, I love everyone on that show and haven't wavered.

I agree. Buffy is annoying. In the final episodes of series 3 when she confronts Wesley over going to find Faith for posioning Angel, her attitude is illogical and very irritating - poor old Wesley's logical reasoning goes through the window for the silly gunho approach (which Giles annoyingly stands by and endorses!)

At the end of series 5 - the whole balance of EVERYTHING lies in the balance. The Mulituniverse could be plunged into hell unless she kills Dawn, her non real sister. Will she acknowledge that this is an option? No, because she is sort of her sister. Let everyone be damned to hell. What an idiot.

Her whining over Riley, her whining over her mum, her whining at Angel and telling him what to do (which he then apologised for?!?)etc. She is irritating, but then most teenagers are. We all were. That is why I can put up with her. She is a realistic character. Self involved. A realistic teenager come twentysomething.

BTW, I also agree about Angel, espc. Series 3. Wesley so far has come on leaps and bounds, shying away from the clown image and becoming a warm and serious character.

[Blue Priestess]

In all honesty, Buffy annoys me. I'm part of a circle of gals that only watch it to drool over Spike.

Mela

[Failure]

Originally posted by SJJ
BTW, I also agree about Angel, espc. Series 3. Wesley so far has come on leaps and bounds, shying away from the clown image and becoming a warm and serious character.

I think I was the only one who liked Wesley when he was on Angel. Sure, he was an uptight wuss, but I felt kind of bad for him. He was trying to do the right thing, but no one ever gave him the chance. But I do love how much his character has grown on Angel. He's one of my favorite characters, if not my favorite, on TV right now.

[James]

Originally posted by Failure


I think I was the only one who liked Wesley when he was on Angel. Sure, he was an uptight wuss, but I felt kind of bad for him. He was trying to do the right thing, but no one ever gave him the chance. But I do love how much his character has grown on Angel. He's one of my favorite characters, if not my favorite, on TV right now.

I agree. I recall at the end of series 1 thinking how much the character had progressed and then at the beginning of series 2 he became a pratt again and remained one for pretty much the entire season (the one when he had to pretend he was Angel was funny but humiliating for the character). However this time they seem to have got things right. He works far better as a softer character. I don't think requires the slapstick of Buffy, it's a different show and now Wesley seems far more at home.

[The Game]

In all honesty, Buffy annoys me. I'm part of a circle of gals that only watch it to drool over Spike.

I don't know- she never bothered me. She can be annoying sometimes, but her character is okay, I think.

Perhaps my vision is blurred by the fact I'm hopelessly in love with Sarah Michelle Gellar... ;)

[Calhoun07]

I am a total newbie with Buffy. I got the season one set, loved the first disc, and now I am trying to catch up with it on UPN. But there is quite a bit I have to catch up with.

[Failure]

Originally posted by SJJ


I agree. I recall at the end of series 1 thinking how much the character had progressed and then at the beginning of series 2 he became a pratt again and remained one for pretty much the entire season (the one when he had to pretend he was Angel was funny but humiliating for the character). However this time they seem to have got things right. He works far better as a softer character. I don't think requires the slapstick of Buffy, it's a different show and now Wesley seems far more at home.

I thought he was fine in season 2. Season 2 was the one where they got fired by Angel right? I thought Wes was pretty brave working with Gunn to fight demons without Angel's help. Then when they came back, he got his role as the leader. Or was that all in season 1?

I'd like to see an episode with Wes and his dad though. They've hinted that Wes has some major confidence issues thanks to his dad, and I think it'd be really interesting to see on screen.

[James]

CAL:I envy you mate, that is a great position to be in! I recall an early episode of Red Dwarf when Holly asked for his memory to be wiped of every book he'd read so he could read them again. Sometimes that is a dreamy thought to have! Imagine watching it all from scratch and pretty much in one go! You have a hell of a ride up ahead, certainly is one of the better cult shows on TV and I'd say it's still going strong!

FAILIURE: You are right, Wesley did have his period 'fired' from Angel in series 2. It was just his time away from Angel with Gunn seemed to be treated in a light hearted manner rather than a serious one. We'd see himself and Gunn returning from a fight with a demon (no fight tehre - or any difficulty in killing the demons despite losing their main weapon - Angel) and then promptly sit down and have a stupid conversation regarding business names and the likes. Simply, he was the light relief to the intense Angel plot and that bugged me - they STILL didn't seem to be able to right for him seriously - not until Angel returned to the fold anyway!

[RogueMartian]

I can't stand Buffy the Vampire slayer. I remember the movie being kinda cool (the same way army of darkness or other B movies are good). In comparison to the girl that played buffy in the movie, I don't think SMG doesn't pulls the role well at all. I may be an unfair judge because overall I don't really like her as an actress (that could be said for most of the people on that show). So I've only seen one episode to judge from, but thats enough, I don't care to see it again.

[James]

That's a great pity Rogue as it has some of the wittest, sharp, dialogue in cult TV today. It's also got a self mocking side which is great - I hate seeing fantasy shows take themselves too seriously.

I myself am no real fan of SMG, but there is a great deal that the show has to over aside from her character. She doesn't dominate the show as much as you may realise and there is some great characters lurking behind the title.

I implore you, give it another go.

Not that it's any bother to me if you don't, but I'm sure you'll be pleasantly suprised. ;)

[Jowy Blight]

I've seen one episode before, but it wasn't really my thing. I don't think I'll ever watch it again.

The episode was some werid thing, everybody was singing.

[Calhoun07]

You're kidding, right? You judged the entire series based on the musical episode? Man, if there is anybody who needs to give the show a second look, it's somebody who only saw the musical episode. The show is a lot better than that.

[Failure]

I thought the musical ep was very well done, but it's not representative of the series as a whole. Actually if you want to see Buffy at it's best, definitely don't start watching season 6. Start with the reruns.

[oranthal]

i don't like it as much as the 1st 3 seasons but i still watch every episode. there were a few gems in season 4 and season 5 such as "the body" with the death of buffy moms and "hush" were everyone could speak and they had those scary villains who just glided through the air with a satanic wide smile.

[JohnCrichton]

It used to be the best Live Action show on television, but after she got to college the show seemed to've lost its way.

I mean, they aren't that funny anymore and the jokes seem old and over used. The actors don't seem to have the passion they once had and there's too many of them! And they're all girl I can't identify with!

I thought Willow doing the lesbo thing was alright. Cute at first, but now it's just disgusting to watch them gush over each other.

Question: I've missed a couple episodes. Why're they broken up now?

Two things are the show's saving grace. The three geek villians are f!-ing brilliant and I love Spike.

Xander, I used to like. He used to be the lovable hard luck every man that... every man could identify with. But then he's completely with it and has basicaly a super model for a wife and a steady job.

What happened to the Xander I once knew and loved.

The show needs a Reboot and I say they go the Power Ranger route and get a new cast, setting and heroes to have fun with.

[James]

I think it's just as funny. I agree that series 4 lost it's way and I almost stopped watching it, but even then, the program is more challenging than most of the other programmes out there.

It helps to watch it from the beginning though - I think you get more out of it - what say anyone else?

BTW, I loved the musical episode - not being a fan of past musical episodes (LEXX, Xena) this one was diverse, clever and still remained funny.

Everyone should just open their minds, get drunk and sit and watch the show from the beginning and you won't regret it (unless you are sick from the excessive drink).

[Calico]

Originally posted by JohnCrichton

I thought Willow doing the lesbo thing was alright. Cute at first, but now it's just disgusting to watch them gush over each other.
Question: I've missed a couple episodes. Why're they broken up now?



Here ya go:

Willow became 'addicted' to magick, and even used a spell to wipe Tara's memory of an argument they had had. Tara finally had enough and left. Willow's doing the 'clean and sober' thing now, so maybe they'll get back together.

I love the show. The lowest point was the whole Initiative/Adam/Riley season, but even that had some really good eps. "Hush" was simply incredible, and the climactic episode when they used the enjoining spell to defeat Adam was really cool (just watched it again tonight and it still gets my heart pounding).

I didn't think I'd enjoy the musical episode nearly as much as I did. Anthony Stewart Head has an amazing voice (I miss Giles :( ) and Spike's Billy Idolesque routine was really good.

I didn't mind Willow becoming a lesbian, but I agree the total 180 degree turnaround was a little offputting. It would make a little more sense if she were bisexual considering her previous relationships.

The current season is becoming interesting, though I'd be incredibly greatful if Dawn simply fell off of the face of the earth. I can't tell if it's the character or the actress that annoys me, but I keep yelling at my screen "Just let her die already!" Bleh.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

I didn't like the direction it went after the Willow-lesbian thing. As most regulars know, I'm a big backer of lesbianism (hurr hurr), but the way it was handled in Buffy was just too gratuitous. Scenes that were meant to be "erotic" were downright laughable, and some were written with a snicker I didn't necessarily like.

I didn't really find Anya to be a necessary part of the show--indeed, she became fairly useless after her stint as villain was over, and while some may like the relationship aspects of the show, I felt that they were moving in a direction that distanced the show's original appeal.

That's not to say I don't think it's a GOOD show, it's just that it's hard to appreciate the quality of a show when you don't like the direction they're taking. I acknowledge that the dialogue is often clever and witty; on the other hand, its self-referencing, wink-wink nod-nod nature just got to be too cute for me.

[Jowy Blight]

The show is a lot better than that.

Alright, I'll try to catch the first season or something.

[Salvor]

Originally posted by Leaping Larry Jojo
I didn't like the direction it went after the Willow-lesbian thing. As most regulars know, I'm a big backer of lesbianism (hurr hurr), but the way it was handled in Buffy was just too gratuitous. Scenes that were meant to be "erotic" were downright laughable, and some were written with a snicker I didn't necessarily like.

I didn't really find Anya to be a necessary part of the show--indeed, she became fairly useless after her stint as villain was over, and while some may like the relationship aspects of the show, I felt that they were moving in a direction that distanced the show's original appeal.

That's not to say I don't think it's a GOOD show, it's just that it's hard to appreciate the quality of a show when you don't like the direction they're taking. I acknowledge that the dialogue is often clever and witty; on the other hand, its self-referencing, wink-wink nod-nod nature just got to be too cute for me.

"Erotic"? They barely ever kissed in the show. Where did you see scenes that were meant to be "erotic"??

I love Anya. I thought she was a great addition after Cordelia's departure. I like her weirdness, her blunt manner of speaking, and I find her relationship with Xander to be very touching at times (when Riley left, the two had an incredibly well-written scene at the end of the episode)

Well apparantly I'm one of the few who enjoy the direction the show has taken lately. I dunno, I find it a lot more mature than in the first seasons (especially the first one and its monster-of-the-week episodes, for which I couldn't care less)

[James]

Originally posted by Salvor



I love Anya. I thought she was a great addition after Cordelia's departure. I like her weirdness, her blunt manner of speaking, and I find her relationship with Xander to be very touching at times (when Riley left, the two had an incredibly well-written scene at the end of the episode)

Well apparantly I'm one of the few who enjoy the direction the show has taken lately. I dunno, I find it a lot more mature than in the first seasons (especially the first one and its monster-of-the-week episodes, for which I couldn't care less)

I love Anya too - she is one of the more humourous elements. herself and Spike are essential to the format now.

I'm with Salvor here, I am enjoying the show now as much if not more than previously. Perhaps because it's been able to establish itself and can now go beyond the perameters of 'monster of the week'. It's still refreshing, still clever, and suprisingly, erm, suprising. Thumbs up!

Especially the recent Halloween episode - there was some of the best misdirection in that story that i've seen on TV. Excellent.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by Salvor


"Erotic"? They barely ever kissed in the show. Where did you see scenes that were meant to be "erotic"??



I only wished that they'd kiss. At least it would feel like a natural thing. As it stands, all that sweating, moanin' and groaning they do during their "witchcraft" scenes are just too much. They are obviously meant to be "erotic" in a way (hence the quotation marks), and them holding hands while making goo-goo faces at each other, is, in my opinion, immaturely handled. If you're gonna make them lesbians, then be lesbians and stop making it as if it's some sort of wink-wink joke.

[oranthal]

yes, Dawn is a very annoying character. her character needs to be written off the show permanently.

[Nightwing]

I got a few gripes and comments which came from endless analyzing. Stand fast!

First as I see the first three seasons I weep, because I thought they were just plain great (I absolutely love ANGEL) and having joined the show at the big Hellmouth-stab-Angel-even-though-he-got-his-soul-back season finale makes me sad I didn't get to live it as it was first being aired too.

Anyway, although they slowly declined throughout the show's existence, all the seasons were great up to and including Buffy's end of high school and first year of college. By slow decline I of course mean the overall plot, because the writting itself for each show is still as great as it once was. I remember saying that after seeing my first of the earlier episodes from the first or second seasons. I saw the holloween one years after it first aired and I thought, "wow, the writting is JUST as good and that freaks me out! Plus the fact they look so young here freaks me out!"

I sort of agree about Dawn. Although I'm a Michelle fan, having grown up with her cute little acting, it just seemed weird since Buffy clearly cared so much about her, but it was hard for us to relate to that, since she was dropped in our laps.

One more thing! (Frankly I don't understand how Willow being gay or straight could make someone lose/gain interest in the show, but) Willow was getting stronger ever since she started practicing magic, and by that I mean magically AND emotionally. So I can't really follow this addiction thing that well. She had her weakness cast on her by Buffy's death (which I guess could explain it), but she was the strongest of the 'scooby team'.

Um, I think that's it. I still love the show, although the overall plot has declined a bit. The rest I've gotten used to. I like how the characters got darker and I like following them.

[The Game]

I love Anya too - she is one of the more humourous elements. herself and Spike are essential to the format now.

Sorry- I'll take Cordelia and Angel over Anya and Spike anyday... Although I guess they're the closest you could come to adequet replacements...

[James]

Replacements?

Yes, I suppose they are - never really thought of them like that.

Cordy and Angel are great - I prefer them in the more serious lead roles they have now.

Spike and Anya are just fun for the total superfluous nature of their characters - they never feel quite as important as Angel and Cordy no matter how vital they are to the plot.

I believe it's called 'comedic relief'.

[The Game]

When I use the term replacements, I didn't mean to discount that Spike and Anya are serious, important characters, I was just stating that if Cordy and Angel hadn't left, they wouldn't be recurring characters at all.

I know everyone seems to be a Spike fan, but did anyone else like him way better as a bad guy? I mean, Spike and Drusilla, fighting the slayer? I do. I've gotten used to the "new funny Spike" but I still like him the best in his original form.

Heh, first Buffy, then Angel. Is Spike the next to get his own series?

[BLACKHEART]

Riley is the reason this show went to shame. His apperance this week only made a bad thing worse. This season has been screaming cancel me.

[James]

Riley put you off the whole series? Crikey - I don't think there is one character who could put me off the series as it's combination of many skills which makes it cool (writing/acting/storylines/comedy). I can't see one character/actor affecting the show that much. That's a shame - I'm sure you are missing out because of it!

GAME: I know everyone seems to be a Spike fan, but did anyone else like him way better as a bad guy? I mean, Spike and Drusilla, fighting the slayer? I do. I've gotten used to the "new funny Spike" but I still like him the best in his original form.


Fair point. But as Joss had found, that just by having Spike reoccur as a bad guy so much it just got to a point where eventually Buffy would have to slay him - otherwise he was to become an empty threat.

I recall James Marsters sharing your concern at the end of series 4 - complaining about the Bermuda scene. However, I think the writers have done and excellent and flowing transistion into making Spike a character who can remain in the show without it actually affecting his basic character.

He's not a good guy. He's an obsessive and where ever his obsession goes - he will follow. I think that's in character. An unusual shift for a baddie. Again, another example of what makes the show unique.

[witness]

I really love this show, always have. I did lose some interest when they switched to UPN, but I've been trying hard to keep up on it. The musical episode is actually what got me hooked again! Now, for anyone who did not see the latest episode of Buffy, don't read my spoiler!!!


Well, I really didn't care too much for this episode. All Riley's fault. I was surprised that Spike turned out to be the "bad" guy again. But, that's what made him so great in the first place, right? Anyways, I was almost in tears at the end where she actually decides to start growing up and dumps Spike for good. Then she called him by his real name! Poor William!!!! And I'm a guy too, and I almost cried at that.


I really loved Druscilla. She was great in her stint on Angel's 2nd season. I wish she had a reason to come back again soon! Her character was one that I absolutely loved!!!

[James]

Yikes! I almost read your spolier forgetting the UK are several episodes behind in series 6!

What an idiot, duh.

Yeah, Dru gets the thumbs up from me. But then the actresses surname was the basis of my musical outfit...!

[Salvor]

Originally posted by witness
Well, I really didn't care too much for this episode. All Riley's fault. I was surprised that Spike turned out to be the "bad" guy again. But, that's what made him so great in the first place, right? Anyways, I was almost in tears at the end where she actually decides to start growing up and dumps Spike for good. Then she called him by his real name! Poor William!!!! And I'm a guy too, and I almost cried at that.

I actually liked Riley in this one. Their conversation toward the end was well thought. But his wife was rather annoying, if you ask me, and the actress just couldn't act! Otherwise yeah, Buffy telling Spike "I'm sorry William" at the very end, now that was stirring.