"Superman Doomsday" Feature Talkback, Part II (Spoilers)

[Bird Boy]

Where were you the day Superman died?

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/dcuam/doomsday/reviews/film/logo.jpg


Superman Doomsday
Release Date: September 18th, 2007

Story by: Duane Capizzi and Bruce Timm
Screenplay by: Duane Capizzi
Directed by: Bruce Timm, Lauren Montgomery and Brandon Vietti

Synopsis: The most shocking showdown in Superman history! When Lexcorp accidentally unearths the intergalactic serial killer Doomsday, Superman battles the creature head on in the fight of his life...literally. The world collectively mourns their fallen hero; humanity realizes it will never feel truly safe again. Superman's enemies rejoice all but Lex Luthor, who grieves the loss in his own demented manner, setting off a chilling chain of events that even he couldn't have foreseen. Inspired by the bestselling graphic novel of all time, DC Comics' The Death of Superman, this feature-length animated adventure boasts exciting action sequences that rivals anything you've ever seen starring the Man of Steel!

Comments?

Previous Discussion Threads
Superman Doomsday Feature Talkback (Spoilers), Part I (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=197608)

Related Threads:
-Superman Doomsday DVD Talkback (Spoilers) (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=197609)
-Superman Doomsday Soundtrack Talkback (Spoilers) (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=199697)
-Superman/Doomsday Feature Review (Spoilers) (http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/dcuam/doomsday/reviews/film/)
-Superman: The Death of Superman Classic Talkback (Spoilers) (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=158553)
-Superman: World Without A Superman Classic Talkback (Spoilers) (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=188892)
-Superman: The Return of Superman Classic Talkback (Spoilers) (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=188891)
-Superman/Doomsday Graphic Novel Talkback (Spoilers) (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=193284)
-Superman: The Death and Return of Superman Hardcover Talkback (Spoilers) (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=197248)
-Superman: The Ultimate Collector's Edition DVD Talkback (Spoilers) (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=179313)
-The Death and Return of Superman Classic Video Game Talkback (Spoilers) (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=197610)

Note: We appreciate and encourage discussion, but one-word/one-line posts are unnecessary. We'd like to see actual discussion and real comments. Please keep your posts the thoughtful, relevant and insightful. We will issue warnings if we believe it necessary. Keep all discussions ON-TOPIC.

[FGfan]

Note: Discussion Continued from Superman Doomsday Feature Talkback (Spoilers), Part I (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=197608).

This has been rather hit and miss, IMHO, for the story it's based on.

Pros:
-Doomsday is well animated
-Neat twist with the duplicate Superman

Cons:
-Ridiculously short length
-New animation models - awkward >.<
-Voice casting - >.<

[Spider-Man]

I think the length of the movie really isn't an issue. Given the script what really could have been fleshed out more anyway? I understand that they could have adapted the comic book story in a more faithful manner but I never saw this as a straight of adaption. They simply used The Death of Superman comic story as a starting point and just ran from there with it. Nothing wrong with that at all I think. I still think it's a good movie but not the best. A good first attempt no doubt.

[GWOtaku]

Personally, I'm still 100&#37; behind my positive review (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?p=2654692#post2654692)--although I still mind the movie's few weak spots. I still think Jimmy got shafted, and the handling of Superman's "return" in the form of the clone was inappropriately subdued and not well done ("uh...thanks, Superman.")

But look, the movie's point wasn't to reenact the Doomsday plot from the comic. The movie had two broad themes. The first was dealing with loss but an extraordinary loss at that, as Superman basically had legendary status and, for the purposes of the movie, was the only superhero. The second big theme was the issue of what happens when the world's "golden God," to use Luthor's words, pretty much decides he is one. The clone Superman plot uniquely drove home the issue that a Superman with a fundamentally different conscience and set of values would be utterly destructive to the world. In this the upbringing of the Kents is highlighted as a true blessing, and the viewer is made acutely aware of what a profoundly moral hero Superman is. He could easily wield his power to seize control, wreak destruction, or enforce his ethics by force as clone Superman did...no, thank heaven, he stands up for the people.

No, its not the comic story. But its a good story. For me, that's more than good enough. Superman Doomsday certainly was a great effort, and I can't wait to watch Justice League: New Frontier later today.

[The Overlord]

Was it wrong for the Superman clone to kill Toyman after he killed a child in Superman: doomsday?

[ROBOTRON]

Was it wrong for the Superman clone to kill Toyman after he killed a child in Superman: doomsday?

:sweat: - NO.

But its a "Justice Lords" type of justice...not civilized justice.

[The Overlord]

:sweat: - NO.

But its a "Justice Lords" type of justice...not civilized justice.

yeah, but if you make a villain as vile as a child killer, you almost wish something bad would happen to the villain.

I mean when a villain goes around killing childern and the authories seem too incompetent to keep him in prison, then the hero dropping him off a building doesn't seem that bad.

[Wolf Boy2]

In a completely lawless environment, it would just be old fashioned "eye for an eye" frontier justice. But in American society, where we have a system of laws and regulations, yes, it was very wrong.

As a US citizen, one is bound to follow the rules of the land. If you prefer frontier justice, there are lots of other places in the world where you can get it. The Criminal Justice system might be flawed, but vigilante justice is only as good or bad as the vigilante.

Depending on what state Metropolis is in, Toyman might have even gotten the death penalty for his crimes, rendering Superman's actions unesscessary. Even without the death penalty, the consequences would've been severe.

[The Overlord]

In a completely lawless environment, it would just be old fashioned "eye for an eye" frontier justice. But in American society, where we have a system of laws and regulations, yes, it was very wrong.

As a US citizen, one is bound to follow the rules of the land. If you prefer frontier justice, there are lots of other places in the world where you can get it. The Criminal Justice system might be flawed, but vigilante justice is only as good or bad as the vigilante.

Depending on what state Metropolis is in, Toyman might have even gotten the death penalty for his crimes, rendering Superman's actions unesscessary. Even without the death penalty, the consequences would've been severe.

Of course one has to wonder at how compentent these authories were, when they couldn't keep him in prison after he threatened a bus full of kids.

[Cortez2301]

Obviously Toyman should be executed but you can't take the law into your own hands.People won't understand your intentions, they will always go back to the law.

[darkdetective]

Oh. So I guess Supes should just let Toyman go to prison, escape, and kill more kids? If someone has a record like that, be done with them. Bats should have killed Joker by now as well. What stops these heroes from "crossing the line"? A hero needs the villain more than the villain needs the hero. The villain has a plan. The hero gets in the way, and stops them. If there was no villain, the hero wouldn't be a hero. He would be a nut running around in his underoos. If any hero really cared about the wellbeing of others, after the 2nd strike, the villain would be killed off. But with no more villains, the heroes would be bored, and no longer heroes. In "A Better World". the reason the JLords went to the JL universe is because they liked being heroes, and to do so, the needed villains. It wasn't there desire to better the JL's world that bought them there. It was there egos. If heroes truly didn't have egos, and wouldn't the the law into there hands too far (like arresting someone for littering), then killing a villain would be the right thing to do. Think of all the lives that would be saved. Or do you want to wait till the villain does something truly horrific?

[Wolf Boy2]

Oh. So I guess Supes should just let Toyman go to prison, escape, and kill more kids? If someone has a record like that, be done with them. Bats should have killed Joker by now as well. Think of all the lives that would be saved. Or do you want to wait till the villain does something truly horrific?
Well, in Batman's case, the fact that he doesn't kill is one of the few things keeping him alive. Imagine if the police came at him "Mask of the Phantasm" or "Batman Begins" style every time he went out? He'd be dead within a week.

Though your point about killing the Joker is a good one. This is part of why I don't care for the current comic books; the events of "The Killing Joke" and "A Death in the Family" push Joker's character too far into the darkness to be salvageable. Would Bruce OR Jim really be so loyal to the law after the Joker beating Jason to death, or shooting, paralyzing and raping Barbara while photographing the whole ordeal? Doubtful.

This is why I think the DCAU was a superior example of storytelling. Those two stories were more or less combined into the ROTJ flashback. Batman was subjected to watching Tim's torture much like Jim was subjected to watching Barbara's. How did Bruce react to ROTJ? With murderous rage (throwing a very deadly knife at the Joker). How did Jim react to ROTJ? Allowing the Joker's body to be buried beneath the ruins of Arkham Asylum.

Also, the DCAU Batman never took on another young partner after Tim's mutilation, unlike the ridiculous comic book Batman who has had two more Robins (one of whom was also killed!).

Even though Joker wasn't killed intentionally in ROTJ, I don't think at that point either Bruce or Jim would've felt much remorse over his death. Bruce, maybe a little bit, but Jim is a cop who has probably already killed people in the line of duty. I thought it was very believable how he kept the secret of the Joker's death.

[DerekPowers]

In a completely lawless environment, it would just be old fashioned "eye for an eye" frontier justice. But in American society, where we have a system of laws and regulations, yes, it was very wrong.

As a US citizen, one is bound to follow the rules of the land. If you prefer frontier justice, there are lots of other places in the world where you can get it. The Criminal Justice system might be flawed, but vigilante justice is only as good or bad as the vigilante.

Depending on what state Metropolis is in, Toyman might have even gotten the death penalty for his crimes, rendering Superman's actions unesscessary. Even without the death penalty, the consequences would've been severe.
I hate to get on the soap box here, but as an American citizen, I find the "law" to be pretty lawless. As a country, we start unnecessary wars, we dont adhear to the Geneva Convention, we don't adhere to U.N. or international law, we torture people, and it would appear that we have a government, the executive branch in particular, that behaves above the law, with no repercussions. We are basically governed by murderers, and thats the sad and honest truth...

When it comes to the Superman clone or the Justice Lords, they justify their actions by saying its for our own good. In their minds, they are righteous, and you cannot convince them otherwise, and therefore, the ends justify the means. That, obviously, is not how a civilized or democratic society opperates.

The sad fact is, I think the Superman Clone and the Justice Lord's brand of justice, or "frontier justice", as you put it, is the law of the land in America. I really hate to say it, but as a US citizen, that is how I feel. I think its a joke to make like we have such a great judicial system here, because we dont (we imprision a higher percentage of our population than ANY other country), and our government is probably one of the most corrupt governments on earth.

[ROBOTRON]

I hate to get on the soap box here, but as an American citizen, I find the "law" to be pretty lawless. As a country, we start unnecessary wars, we dont adhear to the Geneva Convention, we don't adhere to U.N. or international law, we torture people, and it would appear that we have a government, the executive branch in particular, that behaves above the law, with no repercussions. We are basically governed by murderers, and thats the sad and honest truth...

When it comes to the Superman clone or the Justice Lords, they justify their actions by saying its for our own good. In their minds, they are righteous, and you cannot convince them otherwise, and therefore, the ends justify the means. That, obviously, is not how a civilized or democratic society opperates.

The sad fact is, I think the Superman Clone and the Justice Lord's brand of justice, or "frontier justice", as you put it, is the law of the land in America. I really hate to say it, but as a US citizen, that is how I feel. I think its a joke to make like we have such a great judicial system here, because we dont (we imprision a higher percentage of our population than ANY other country), and our government is probably one of the most corrupt governments on earth.

^ If this were a civilzed world, you would be king...sir.:cool:

[Miyamoto Musashi]

Not a wrong do, done in a wrong way. It sure is better that he gets executed by law.

Was that cop who talked after Superman's clone lifted Toyman voiced by the same guy who voiced Frederik Foswell?

[Wolf Boy2]

I hate to get on the soap box here, but as an American citizen, I find the "law" to be pretty lawless. As a country, we start unnecessary wars, we dont adhear to the Geneva Convention, we don't adhere to U.N. or international law, we torture people, and it would appear that we have a government, the executive branch in particular, that behaves above the law, with no repercussions. We are basically governed by murderers, and thats the sad and honest truth...
Well, I could get really technical and point out that the Geneva Conventions only apply to the High Contracting Parties, thus countries like North Vietnam and Iraq (or groups like the Viet Cong or Al Qaeda) have no rights whatsoever under the 1949 convention text. But I think you're talking more about human rights in the moral sense than what is or is not allowed on a sheet of paper.


The sad fact is, I think the Superman Clone and the Justice Lord's brand of justice, or "frontier justice", as you put it, is the law of the land in America. I really hate to say it, but as a US citizen, that is how I feel. I think its a joke to make like we have such a great judicial system here, because we dont (we imprision a higher percentage of our population than ANY other country), and our government is probably one of the most corrupt governments on earth.
I can think of more corrupt ones, but that's just a sad fact of governments in general. The king is always above his own law. However, I think it can be dangerous to slip into a self-hating mentality.

America has greatly improved in the last two centuries. If you think Iraq has War Crimes, look what the Washington DC Government did to the Confederacy and the Native Americans (Sherman's March, Wounded Knee). And that was right here on our own continent.

At the dawn of the nineteenth century, neither blacks nor women could vote. At the dawn of the twentieth century, blacks could vote but women couldn't. At the dawn of the twenty-first, both can vote.

Which is why Superman is called the "Man of Tomorrow." He represents the noble and progressive aspects of America. Look at Action Comics #1: in his very first story he took on wife beaters and corrupt senators. Likewise, the Superman clone or the Justice Lord Superman represent the corruption of the past and present. Superman's "reflection in a cracked mirror."

I think people look at Superman and think, what a joke, America isn't like that. But Superman isn't supposed to represent what America is, but rather what she can be.

[pharmmajor]

Of course one has to wonder at how compentent these authories were, when they couldn't keep him in prison after he threatened a bus full of kids.

Well, considering Toyman could construct a giant robotic spider, I'd assume he possessed the skills to escape from his incarceration.

Regarding his execution by the Superman clone... as heinous as the murder of a child is, I think the worst punishment is for the killer to spend the rest of their days in prison, cut off from the rest of society, beaten and raped daily so that every waking minute is spent wishing for death. My philosophy is that scum who do such horrible acts are going to hell anyway; why not make them experience a little of it during their remaining time on earth?

So yes, the Superman clone was wrong when he deviated from the original Man of Steel's position as a crimefighter and decided he was judge, jury and executioner.

[Wolf Boy2]

Regarding his execution by the Superman clone... as heinous as the murder of a child is, I think the worst punishment is for the killer to spend the rest of their days in prison, cut off from the rest of society, beaten and raped daily so that every waking minute is spent wishing for death. My philosophy is that scum who do such horrible acts are going to hell anyway; why not make them experience a little of it during their remaining time on earth?
High profile killers IRL sentenced to life, such as BTK, are put in solitary to prevent that. Knowingly condemning someone to a prison where they will be abused would be cruel and unusual punishment.

[The Overlord]

Well, considering Toyman could construct a giant robotic spider, I'd assume he possessed the skills to escape from his incarceration.

Regarding his execution by the Superman clone... as heinous as the murder of a child is, I think the worst punishment is for the killer to spend the rest of their days in prison, cut off from the rest of society, beaten and raped daily so that every waking minute is spent wishing for death. My philosophy is that scum who do such horrible acts are going to hell anyway; why not make them experience a little of it during their remaining time on earth?

So yes, the Superman clone was wrong when he deviated from the original Man of Steel's position as a crimefighter and decided he was judge, jury and executioner.

See the problem is, if he was able to escape the first time, why wouldn't he be able to escape a second time?

[pharmmajor]

High profile killers IRL sentenced to life, such as BTK, are put in solitary to prevent that. Knowingly condemning someone to a prison where they will be abused would be cruel and unusual punishment.

I understand your position. However, regarding the Constitutional rights of a violent criminal... I'm sorry to say that I don't believe they should be protected by them. In my eyes, if you harm another person (physically or sexually), you have forfeitted your rights. And I'm a libertarian, so that's saying something.

[DerekPowers]

I think it can be dangerous to slip into a self-hating mentality.
I dont hate myself. I just hate what the government does with my tax dollars. I dont like how they usurp the wealth of our nation then kill innocent people in my name. Please don't mistake that for self-hatred.


America has greatly improved in the last two centuries. If you think Iraq has War Crimes, look what the Washington DC Government did to the Confederacy and the Native Americans (Sherman's March, Wounded Knee). And that was right here on our own continent.

At the dawn of the nineteenth century, neither blacks nor women could vote. At the dawn of the twentieth century, blacks could vote but women couldn't. At the dawn of the twenty-first, both can vote.

Which is why Superman is called the "Man of Tomorrow." He represents the noble and progressive aspects of America. Look at Action Comics #1: in his very first story he took on wife beaters and corrupt senators. Likewise, the Superman clone or the Justice Lord Superman represent the corruption of the past and present. Superman's "reflection in a cracked mirror."

I think people look at Superman and think, what a joke, America isn't like that. But Superman isn't supposed to represent what America is, but rather what she can be.
Well, I wouldn't argue about the terrible attrocities commited by the US government against the native americans. This country was built on genocide and slavery, and that too is the sad and honest truth.

I think its silly to compare which horrors are worse, in an attempt to make today look better than the past. If you are an Iraqi citizen who's whole family was killed in the invasion, and got blown up and was missing your armes and legs, while the whole time American politicians like Bush, and even Hillary Clinton, go on tv and say that the Iraqis need to thank us for bringing them freedom and its the Iraqi gov's fault that there is chaos because they arent taking the ball and running with it, well, I think you'd probably say today was worse than the past.

As far as a hero standing for what American could be, I prefer to think of that hero as Batman, not Superman. Batman is an average man who does extrodanary things. Remember what he said to Waller in her bathroom? He was speaking to a government agent, and basically said if the gov presented a threat to the innocent, the JL would take them down. If only we had a JL to do that for us....

[Silverstar]

As far as a hero standing for what American could be, I prefer to think of that hero as Batman, not Superman. Batman is an average man who does extrodanary things.

In truth, both characters are high goals for a normal Joe to shoot for, since both of them have advantages that Joe Average just doesn't possess: Supes is an alien from an advanced civilization and has a impressive array of superpowers. Batman has more money than the mint and has trained and educated himself to the Nth degree, and has access to technology and resources that no average person with average income could ever hope to get his hands on. I'm not dissing Bats or any of his admirers, mind you (I enjoy the Dark Knight myself, especially the DCAU version) but I've personally never bought the whole "Batman is just a regular guy" rhetoric. How many "regular guys" do you know have zillions of dollars to spend on education and training from Nobel Prize winning scholars and martial arts masters from all over the globe and their own personal cave full of high-tech devices and vehicles?

Truth be told, Batman is just as much a paragon of perfection as Superman.

[Wolf Boy2]

I dont hate myself. I just hate what the government does with my tax dollars. I dont like how they usurp the wealth of our nation then kill innocent people in my name. Please don't mistake that for self-hatred.
Makes sense. Though I suppose I see a distinction between America the people and culture and America the government.


Well, I wouldn't argue about the terrible attrocities commited by the US government against the native americans. This country was built on genocide and slavery, and that too is the sad and honest truth




I think its silly to compare which horrors are worse, in an attempt to make today look better than the past.
I mention Wounded Knee because it was an incident where the Army mowed down an entire village with Gatling guns. Or the earlier Sand Creek Massacre, where the Army broke the terms of the Laramie treaty, and attacked a defenseless Cheyenne village, killing mostly old men, women and children (despite the fact that the friendly village was flying a US flag). After the battle the drunk soldiers cut the genitalia off the bodies for trophies. So, yeah ... the nineteenth Century was worse.


American politicians like Bush, and even Hillary Clinton, go on tv and say that the Iraqis need to thank us for bringing them freedom
That's typical American BS, to claim that their fight is for someone else's freedom. Like the Civil War, where the government claimed to be freeing slaves yet still subjected black Southerners to the same war crimes as their masters. "Hi folks, we're the Army of Liberation! We're gonna burn your houses and rape your wives and steal your hogs (and kill what we don't steal), in order to free you!"

Not that I think slavery was right, but using emancipation to justify Sherman's March has always bothered the hell out of me. Though Sherman did offer Field Order no. 15 ("40 Acres and a Mule") to relocate the former slaves into new homes with new stock, the government later recanted, so in the end the "freed" blacks were hardly any better off (screwed by the South before the war and screwed again by the North after the war). God Bless the USA.


As far as a hero standing for what American could be, I prefer to think of that hero as Batman, not Superman. Batman is an average man who does extrodanary things. Remember what he said to Waller in her bathroom? He was speaking to a government agent, and basically said if the gov presented a threat to the innocent, the JL would take them down. If only we had a JL to do that for us....
Never thought of it that way. Though Superman is the American icon (like Uncle Sam and Captain America). I think what you said about Batman applies to Green Arrow also, though he sometimes leans a little too far to the left. Though anyone who risks their own life the way he and Batman do is a-okay in my book.

[Bones Justice]

I think the movie was trying to say that killing Toyman was wrong. The real Superman would not have killed him.

We have an advantage as the viewing audience. We know Toyman is guilty because we witnessed it. How many people in Metropolis could say the same, though? It's funny -- people question the actions of the U.S. Government in the real world but would be okay with Superman deciding who lives and who dies if he were real. If Superman were real, we wouldn't know as much about him because we couldn't see into his private life or witness the actions of villains behind-the-scenes.

Also, if Superman were real, he probably would be killing people all the time with his actions, even if unintentional. How many times has he knocked over a building or caused an enemy to land on a occupied vehicle? Yeah, he'd have to be a lot more cautious than he is on television if he were in the real world. But then, the villains attacked first so people probably would give him some leeway with collateral damage, right?

The other thing I'm wondering, though, is why hasn't Superman done something about keeping guys like Toyman locked up? He really can't make the excuse that he couldn't improve prisoner security. He has Kryptonian technology at his disposal, for one thing. Also, with his speed and endurance, he could make the rounds of every prison cell repeatedly, couldn't he? In fact, isn't Toyman's escape as much his fault as anybody's? He knows what Toyman is capable of and he knows the limits of Metropolis security, so why hasn't he done something to keep Toyman locked up?

[Webryder]

Also, if Superman were real, he probably would be killing people all the time with his actions, even if unintentional. How many times has he knocked over a building or caused an enemy to land on a occupied vehicle? Yeah, he'd have to be a lot more cautious than he is on television if he were in the real world. But then, the villains attacked first so people probably would give him some leeway with collateral damage, right?

Ok you have valid points. Now imagine the real world with criminals the caliber Superman face exist (Brainiac, Metallo, Intergang, Imperiex, Darkseid, Doomsday...etc) but no Superman....we'd definitely be crying our ***** off for a saviour then huh? :crying: He only wrecks things when the battle determines it. You can't stop supervillains like those without some collateral destruction which is why he gave his own life to kill Doomsday before any human lives were lost (like that little girl) while he still had the energy to do it and making that tactical retreat to draw the Kryptonian villains away from the city in Superman II when they started to use people (the public transportation bus) as weapons. Superman knows in a colossal battle like that buildings and cars can be rebuilt, human lives being threatened is when he either makes the choice to move the battle or end it quickly by whatever means neccessary.


The other thing I'm wondering, though, is why hasn't Superman done something about keeping guys like Toyman locked up? He really can't make the excuse that he couldn't improve prisoner security. He has Kryptonian technology at his disposal, for one thing. Also, with his speed and endurance, he could make the rounds of every prison cell repeatedly, couldn't he? In fact, isn't Toyman's escape as much his fault as anybody's? He knows what Toyman is capable of and he knows the limits of Metropolis security, so why hasn't he done something to keep Toyman locked up?

Because thats NOT a "job for Superman". Thats OUR job. Superman doesnt micromanage his superheroing. Being a superpowered prison guard for every dangerous criminal that he brings to justice is a waste of his time. He'd be better suited for stopping volcanos or tornados or floods. That's why superman doesn't stop wars or wipe out world hunger, things that WE as human beings should be more than capable of doing ourselves.

The clone Superman treated Metropolis' citizens as if they were children. Mindless sheep that only the clone Supes knew what was best for them. He thought that way because like the REAL Superman said he was raised by Luthor and thats how he sees the city.

The clone became Lex Luthor with superpowers. On the surface he wants the people to think he's doing it for altruistic reasons but if you disagree with his methods or resist in any way he'll destroy you and say it was for your own good. Lex's logic. The punishment of toyman in the clones mind could easily be applied to anyone in Metropolis if they did something he thought was wrong.

In the movie the childlike, immature Toyman was basically how he saw all the citizens of Metropolis and clones Supes was using him as an example of what could happen to any one of them. Why do you think he did it so publicly? Act up and THIS is your spanking...so says Lex Lu...er uh...SUPERMAAAAN!!

I also disagree with the post about all superheros needing villains to have identity. Dont get me wrong, some heros do (Punisher, Blade, Batman to a certain extent...) but not Superman. In the movie he had Lois, his Mom, his career and friends in other words ...a life. When Doomsday showed up he wasn't like the clone, superhero posing on his gargoyle high in the sky waiting for trouble to happen so he would have something to do, some reason to exist. He was busy enjoying his down time with his girlfriend. Remember when the robot interrupted with the news? The annoyed, sad to be leaving Lois look he had on his face. Like he almost wanted to say "Can't you call the watchtower and see if Jonn or Green Lantern is busy"? He didn't want to be Superman in that moment, it was his job...a job he gets tremendous satisfaction and pride out of at times but a job nonetheless and a job that only HE could do. If crime and evil suddenly vanished or took a vacation it would be the clone Superman who'd be outta luck with nothin else better to do then scold old ladies about leaving their screen doors open but the REAL deal would be just fine spending time with his woman and/or working on that cure for cancer.

[Wolf Boy2]

Another point to consider is that in many continuities, Superman is a deputized member of the Metropolis Police Department. Since he is, in a way, a sort of cop, he's bound by their rules. Now IDK if this is true for the SD version, but it seems pretty likely (given that he was deputized in STAS, and SD is very much like STAS).

Superman isn't a human in disguise like Batman or Green Arrow, he is literally a separate identity. As far as anyone knows, "Superman" is Kal-El from Krypton. With his true identity public, he works with the police and the government legitimately. So a debate over whether Batman ought to kill the Joker is valid, since Batman is already a criminal. But Superman is 100% legitimate.

We might as well be arguing whether those Metropolis cops should've killed Toyman or not.

[Bones Justice]

Now imagine the real world with criminals the caliber Superman face exist

Unfortunately, we have worse...Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, etc. They actually manage to kill a lot more people than even Darkseid.

But I agree with you, people would cry out for someone to protect them. And they do. Unfortunately, it's not as easy in the real world to prevent casualties in the "collateral" damage when someone does stand up to the bad guys. Nor is it as black and white as in the comics; most of the bad guys are not standing right in front of you wearing a colorful outfit.



Because thats NOT a "job for Superman".

Exactly my point. It's not his job to be jailer any more than it is his job to be judge or executioner. Even if he's a deputized member of the police force, he doesn't have the authority to decide who lives and dies, nor carry out the sentence.


Another point to consider is that in many continuities, Superman is a deputized member of the Metropolis Police Department.

Agreed. Also, in Superman TAS, Metropolis is in a state that has the death penalty, unless it was repealed after the events of The Late Mr. Kent.

[ROBOTRON]

Also, in Superman TAS, Metropolis is in a state that has the death penalty, unless it was repealed after the events of The Late Mr. Kent.

True.

After Superman saved the black guy who was innocent of murder, the policeman that was really responsible was gassed and put to death at the very end of the episode.

[Webryder]

Exactly my point. It's not his job to be jailer any more than it is his job to be judge or executioner. Even if he's a deputized member of the police force, he doesn't have the authority to decide who lives and dies, nor carry out the sentence.

Go back and read your own post. That wasn't your point at all...:confused: You were placing the blame for Toyman's prison break and thusly the killing of that little girl squarely at Superman's feet because he doesn't stick around jailhouses on 24 hour prison detail on the off chance one of his MANY human captures manages to escape. I was countering by saying even if that was the result, Superman has no business doing that type of thing and it's soley the prisons fault that Toyman and criminals like him keep getting away.

My point being the real Superman is not his clone. He's not here to baby us or treat us like invalid children who don't know any better. If Metropolis' prison institutions don't believe they can keep the scum of the streets locked up with existing tech, they could simply say, "Hey Supes we notice you got a lot of old gadgets and advanced alien technologies just lyin around the Fortress...you think we could borrow some stuff you aint usin to increase the security on those criminals you were nice enough to catch for us??"

[Bones Justice]

Go back and read your own post.

No. I know what I wrote. It was sarcasm.

[Webryder]

No. I know what I wrote. It was sarcasm.

Ok...:shrug: But you should work on your online sarcasm a bit more cause what you said doesn't come off as being sarcastic at all. It's written like you were asking a sincere question...:confused:

[Bones Justice]

Ok...:shrug: But you should work on your online sarcasm a bit more cause what you said doesn't come off as being sarcastic at all. It's written like you were asking a sincere question...:confused:

Really? C'mon, I even said that Superman should check on the prisoners repeatedly at super-speed! Nobody would expect him to do that. Besides, there would never be any villain stories.

Okay, though, if I ever use sarcasm again, I promise to add the words "this is sarcasm" in parantheses afterwards. (this is sarcasm)

[GWOtaku]

posted by Wolf Boy2:

Not that I think slavery was right, but using emancipation to justify Sherman's March has always bothered the hell out of me. Though Sherman did offer Field Order no. 15 ("40 Acres and a Mule") to relocate the former slaves into new homes with new stock, the government later recanted, so in the end the "freed" blacks were hardly any better off (screwed by the South before the war and screwed again by the North after the war). Not better off? Sure, they were still at the bottom of the economic food chain, but they weren't enslaved anymore. Not gonna address the rest, as its way too political.

Well, on the matter of executing Toyman, the issue is that whether he deserved death or not is irrelevant. Clone Superman still took all power and responsibility into his own hands, and that just manifested itself even worse when he started to go extreme and make himself both a guardian of justice and the decider of what justice means.

Again, the parallel made to Luthor's monologue at the start of the movie is strong: Clone Superman is what happens when Superman decides that he should behave like a God. But he is SuperMAN. Not perfect, not infallible, not above the law and not beyond morality. No one man is fit to judge the rest of us. By the time our Superman finally intervened, Clone Superman was doing as he pleased and attacking the authorities. He was insistent that he knew what was best and had to act for our own good, even as he attacked the city he was "protecting." He had no concept of accountability. He had to be stopped, and our Superman did what had to be done.

[Wolf Boy2]

It's interesting that no one debates very often whether the real Superman should've killed the clone.

Just throwing that out there.

[Webryder]

Okay, though, if I ever use sarcasm again, I promise to add the words "this is sarcasm" in parantheses afterwards. (this is sarcasm)

Now you getting the hang of it! You a funny guy :D (this is sarcasm) You don't mind if I steal that do you? :p


It's interesting that no one debates very often whether the real Superman should've killed the clone.He held his head afterward...so that made it ok right?...right??

He wasn't even that broken up about it either. As soon as the fight was over he was busy makin out with Lois and everybody was laughing and celebrating meanwhile the clones body still laying there not even cold yet. He DID save Lois' life and she didn't seem to care at all...not even a "awwww....poor dead clone boyfriend"

[bat313]

It's interesting that no one debates very often whether the real Superman should've killed the clone.

Just throwing that out there.

I've brought this up before. Superman does not kill, he always finds another way. I was suprised he didn't banish him to the Phantom zone or trap him somewhere. Killing the clone seemed very un-Superman like to me.

And no, he can't kill all the vilians or else there would be no more comics. Or just alot of new villians dying in ever issue.

[GWOtaku]

It's interesting that no one debates very often whether the real Superman should've killed the clone.

Just throwing that out there.

It was definitely the right thing to do, and the only thing to do at that.

Also, to amend, Clone Superman's execution was wrong. The law handed Toyman his punishment. Clone Superman deciding that wasn't enough was the first step toward his tyrannical behavior.

[Jacob T. Paschal]

I'll play devil advocate and say I had no problem with Clone Superman killing The Toyman. It was quite obvious The Toyman had chosen not the path of redemption but the path of insanity and murder, thus, Clone Superman choosing to kill The Toyman is more understandable because doing so would just save time and lives.

Now, I am not saying Superman was justified in going the next step in declaring himself some sort of God. Just save the world one day at a time.

[Wolf Boy2]

It was definitely the right thing to do, and the only thing to do at that.
Oh, I agree. And it was legal to boot. Killing the clone in self-defense with no malice of forethought. Open and shut case. If he stopped the clone's spree, Superman must go free!

I also disagree with the "Superman doesn't kill" idea. I think he generally tries not to, but there are enemies that even he must use deadly force on. Literally no one in this discussion has suggested that it was wrong to kill Doomsday.

As a police deputy, Superman cannot kill a tied up convict who has just been tried and convicted. However, when someone like Doomsday or the Clone is on a killing rampage and the regular police and military are using deadly force, it would be almost irresponsible for Superman to not do likewise.

Unless you invoke a "it just shouldn't happen in a Superman story", which is basically asking the writer to stack the deck so Superman won't kill. I can see the merit in this POV, but it's still asinine to me.

[SaBaWoJuLe]

In case no one knew; Superman Doomsday will premiere on Cartoon Network on July 12th, which is a Saturday, at 9PM. So if no one saw it and not got the DVD yet, you can now see it on TV. Although, it will be edited I'm sure.

[AlgeaX]

So... what did everybody think of the actual movie?

[Reg]

I enjoyed the film. The fight between Supes and Doomsday was pure wow. Can you imagine what the bill would be for all that damage? Wooo, that is one repair bill I would not want to see.

And I thought for sure, Clone Superman was gonna kill that cat. Seriously, I was on the edge of my seat.

[Bird Boy]

Yeah...enough of that. Keep the politics away, please.

Back on topic, if you guys can manage that.

-BB

[Wolf Boy2]

Yeah...enough of that. Keep the politics away, please.

Back on topic, if you guys can manage that.

-BB
This is why I hate it when threads are merged. Our topic was specifically about the fate of Toyman in SD and the moral/social implications of that. But then the thread gets merged into the general SD talkback and now becomes off-topic.

Had the mods not monkeyed with the threads, nothing would be off-topic.

[Bird Boy]

This is why I hate it when threads are merged. Our topic was specifically about the fate of Toyman in SD and the moral/social implications of that. But then the thread gets merged into the general SD talkback and now becomes off-topic.

Had the mods not monkeyed with the threads, nothing would be off-topic.

I'm pretty sure a discussion about Toyman's fate in Superman/Doomsday and a discussion about our troops in Iraq don't really correlate with one another. Toyman discussion, however, is fine, since it obviously goes with the movie itself.

[DisneyBoy]

Iraq?

Well I don't know what y'all are chatting about...but I came across this DVD in a store being sold for I think it was ten dollars. I opted not to pick it up...

I think from the time I first heard about it to today...my interest has waned significantly. The designs look very pedestrian, hardly more than a variation on JL, which is too bad. This film looks nothing like the comic, and given that these films are supposed to be based on those issues, you'd think they'd put a little more effort into encorporating the parts of the project that worked the first time around. I liked the art (albeit not the 90s clothes on Lois) and really feel they should/could have done more than just have Timm tweak his classic designs.

Of course, I haven't seen the film yet, so I can't say much more than that. Except that seeing the movie discounted in a store less than five years after it's release puts things in a certain kind of perspective. When you see ROTJ in that position, you just know whoever picks it up for 10 bucks is going to be blown away. With this DVD, something was telling me it wasn't worth the ten.

[Wolf Boy2]

Iraq?

Well I don't know what y'all are chatting about...but I came across this DVD in a store being sold for I think it was ten dollars. I opted not to pick it up...

I think from the time I first heard about it to today...my interest has waned significantly. The designs look very pedestrian, hardly more than a variation on JL, which is too bad. This film looks nothing like the comic, and given that these films are supposed to be based on those issues, you'd think they'd put a little more effort into encorporating the parts of the project that worked the first time around. I liked the art (albeit not the 90s clothes on Lois) and really feel they should/could have done more than just have Timm tweak his classic designs.

Of course, I haven't seen the film yet, so I can't say much more than that. Except that seeing the movie discounted in a store less than five years after it's release puts things in a certain kind of perspective. When you see ROTJ in that position, you just know whoever picks it up for 10 bucks is going to be blown away. With this DVD, something was telling me it wasn't worth the ten.
It's worth the $10. Though it was on $14.99 on its release day. I'm surprised you have seen it. Are you saying you didn't know about it?

Anyway, the plot is as follows: The opening scene is a rehash of the Doomsday fights from "A Better World" and "Doomsday Sanction" ending with a death scene that mirrors the original comics. A funeral like the one in "Hereafter" follows. Then a clone Superman shows up and Jimmy and Lois discover that Luthor has been cloning Superman (like in the first STAS Bizzaro episode). The real Superman turns out not to be dead and kills the clone. The end.

But the visuals are pretty strong and the acting is decent, so I'd still recommend viewing it.

[Pyro]

I finally saw this movie. It met my expectations. That said, my expectations weren't very high. It's taken me so long to see it mostly because I just wasn't enthused about seeing the classic Superman/Doomsday fight again. I never read the actual comics, but I've heard a ton about them, and I've seen the JL episodes "Hereafter" and "A Better World" which sampled the story. Still, I think this adapation was very enjoyable for what I think it tried to be.

I think my biggest problem with the movie was the animation. That's not to say it wasn't good--the action scenes in particular were very well done. I just think (and this is a problem I've had with all DCAU shows post-Batman Beyond) that it wasn't very artful. The backgrounds, character designs, and color schemes all just seem very generic and serviceable, rather than aesthetically pleasing. And scenes that are dependent on acting, often fall flat due to poor facial expressions and body movement. Disney it ain't. Of course, DC animation has never been up to Disney standards, but I can wish can't I?

The music also never went beyond being "serviceable."

This version of Luthor was certifiably insane. His voice actor was good. I was really surprised by the Mercy killing (hahaha! - I don't excuse my puns). I didn't really understand why Luthor was beating up the clone Superman, beyond venting his frustration... But I thought his obsession with Superman was well written.

Superman himself, was cool, if not a little dull with Adam Baldwin's voice lacking strength and passion. Lois--I can't say I like the quality of Anne Heche's voice, but her acting was good. Of course, the Lois/Ma Kent scene deserves a mention. Jimmy was ok. I had expected Adam Wylie to suck because of some of his past work that I am familiar with, but luckily that was not the case here. Unfortunately, Jimmy's storyline was kind of lame.

So, yeah, the movie was good. Not great, not bad, but good.

From the first part of the thread:

Did anyone else find that this movie had blatant homo-erotic overtones. There were a couple scenes, like the one where Luthor gives a beating to the Superman clone or the opener itself when Lex gives his monologue, where it seemed pretty blatant. Am I looking into this too much. I understand that Duane Capizzi may or may not be gay (it doesn't matter) and maybe he thought adding these overtones would help add an adult element to it?Funny that you should mention that, as I interpreted those scenes the same way. I definitely think Luthor's obsession with Superman entered that territory in this movie. However, I don't think the writers were making him homosexual. Not just because of the scene with Lois, but he was so eccentric in this movie that I would hesitate to label him.

[Space Cadet]

The movie airs tonight on Toonami at 9 PM Eastern. I can't wait, since this will be my first time seeing the movie.

[{Shadow}]

http://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/toonami/2007/toonami.jpg

Not that it's a big deal or anything, but shouldn't the premiere talkback image be used instead? The movie hasn't aired before, after all.

[Space Cadet]

http://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/toonami/2007/toonami.jpg

Not that it's a big deal or anything, but shouldn't the premiere talkback image be used instead? The movie hasn't aired before, after all.

I agree. I've been using the rerun talkback for so long, that I forgot about that image.:p

[Rolling Cloud]

Showtime, folks! =D

[D Dubbs]

So is this airing on Toonami or regular CN?

[Nexonius]

So is this airing on Toonami or regular CN?

I heard TOM 4's voice before the beginning, so yes.

[tb4000]

This is my first time seeing this, and when I saw Lois, I immediately thought they retconned her into an asian chick. The design kind of threw me. I kind of recognize Heche's voice, so it takes me out occasionally, but she's doing good. I'll get used to the chiseled Supes face.

[Don_East]

So is this airing on Toonami or regular CN?
From the looks of the bumper, regular CN.

Damn.

[LordTerminal]

An animated form of Luthor NOT done by Clancy Brown? Well that's a first? (For me at least)

[ShadowGUN]

I heard TOM 4's voice before the beginning, so yes.

Oddly enough there was no mention of Toonami.

Edit- Actually it sounded more like Blum regular voice than TOM 4.

[Soul]

From the looks of the bumper, regular CN.

Damn.
I dunno...
Maybe in between..? ;)

[Space Cadet]

This is my first time seeing this, and when I saw Lois, I immediately thought they retconned her into an asian chick. The design kind of threw me. I kind of recognize Heche's voice, so it takes me out occasionally, but she's doing good. I'll get used to the chiseled Supes face.

Yeah, this is my first time seeing the movie and I didn't realize that was Lex until his assistant said his name. Adam Baldwin's voice might take some time getting use to as well.

And a special ratings card made for this movie, nice.

[warnerbroman]

wait is this censored or is rectum to racy?

[Space Cadet]

wait is this censored or is rectum to racy?

"rectum" was said. Someone who has seen the movie before will have to say whether or not its edited.

[Soul]

From the looks of the bumper, regular CN.

Damn.
Uhmm...
Yeah.
We need Superman...
But way to go Lex for unleashing Hell...

Mod Note: Watch the language.

[tb4000]

OK, that is definitely a post coitus snuggle Lois and Supes are doing.:sweat: Don't tell me they were just snuggling up and talking before. TV-PG indeed.

[warnerbroman]

oops Total island disclamer so it could be uncencored

[LordTerminal]

Well a little late to the party aren't we Mr. Disclaimer....

[Don_East]

About these bumpers, doesn't this remind you of Jeff Harris' idea of making Toonami's bumpers just clips from the shows that are on Toonami and Steve Blum's voice?

Also, so far this film is way better than Brainiac Attacks.

[ShadowGUN]

The Superman vs Doomsday fight was EPIC.

[Soul]

The Toonami pop-up thing just showed so I still think IT IS Toonami...

But wow.
Superman was gettin' his butt handed to him.
But what..
That can't be it..

[Caswin]

Waaait...

Is it me, or are they chopping this thing up? I keep seeing little cuts that feel like there should be a few more seconds in there, and I know I've seen video clips from that battle that, well, I didn't just see. Anyone else seeing this?

[Space Cadet]

No, Superman's dead.:(

[warnerbroman]

superman is dead nooo!!!

I did not see that coming!!!

[D Dubbs]

Waaait...

Is it me, or are they chopping this thing up? I keep seeing little cuts that feel like there should be a few more seconds in there, and I know I've seen video clips from that battle that, well, I didn't just see. Anyone else seeing this?

Wouldn't surprise me. The movie is originally 75 minutes long, and they're putting it in a 90 minute slot, so I would expect about 5 or 10 minutes of footage to be cut out.

[Raditz]

Waaait...

Is it me, or are they chopping this thing up? I keep seeing little cuts that feel like there should be a few more seconds in there, and I know I've seen video clips from that battle that, well, I didn't just see. Anyone else seeing this?
Yeah, it seems like they're cutting out impacts of REALLY hard hits, or something.

[Raditz]

*GASP*

The Man of Steel has fallen. ;_;

[Bunai]

*waves arms all over the place*
put him in the sunlight

gaaaah!

j/k
seen this before. just watching it again

you think Superman should tell his closest allies about the whole Sun power thing?

[Rolling Cloud]

Sayonara, Sweet prince!

[ShadowGUN]

It always bother that Jimmy became a paparazzi after Superman dead. It really out of character for him to do that.

[warnerbroman]

:eek: bang!

[RockmanDash]

Oh gosh it's Toyman..

[Nexonius]

While Perry was talking to Lois, the word "ass" is replaced with "butt".

[Naruto D.Luffy]

Toyman's voice sounds familiar, anyone know who's playing him.

[Soul]

See I'm not familiar with much of the Superman continuity but yeah ,,,

[Nexonius]

And, they edited some more stuff, badly.

[LordTerminal]

What the hell kind of version of Toyman is that? :eek: He's like some goth homosexual.

Obviously, you can't kill Superman conventionally. It should be no surprise he's still alive.

[Don_East]

Toyman's voice sounds familiar, anyone know who's playing him.
Sounds like John DiMaggio, the voice of Bender.

***CHECKS WIKIPEDIA***

Yep, it's him.

[Raditz]

supes! =D

[ShadowGUN]

Oh gosh it's Toyman..

LOL Bender is the Toyman.

[Space Cadet]

Toyman's voice sounds familiar, anyone know who's playing him.

John DiMaggio. His most famous role is Bender from Futurama.

I think time edits are being made. In one scene, I heard the music skip.

Also, was there any edit on Luthor shooting his assistant?

[Raditz]

LOL Bender is the Toyman.
Bite my shiny, plastic, ass!

[Naruto D.Luffy]

Sounds like John DiMaggio, the voice of Bender.

***CHECKS WIKIPEDIA***

Yep, it's him.

Thanks I had a feeling.

[RockmanDash]

Why do I sense thats really a Superman robot?


LOL Bender is the Toyman.

Oh god..

[warnerbroman]

And, they edited some more stuff, badly.like what



so the disclaimer is pontless?


Bite my shiny, plastic, ass!

that sounds so gross that and when he said playmates

also wiki said he was killed off(toyman)

[Soul]

So wait..
I missed it..
How EXACTLY did Superman come back from the dead?
And don't give me that "Its' cause he's Superman!" bull.

[Space Cadet]

like what



so the disclaimer is pontless?

Well, some stuff was kept that normally wouldn't be in a CN show. But yeah, I'm really curious about the edits now.

[Space Cadet]

So wait..
I missed it..
How EXACTLY did Superman come back from the dead?
And don't give me that "Its' cause he's Superman!" bull..
...

Somebody used the Dragonballs to wish him back.;)

[RockmanDash]

So wait..
I missed it..
How EXACTLY did Superman come back from the dead?
And don't give me that "Its' cause he's Superman!" bull..
...

Probably a robot that Lex Luther made out of feeling not satisfied that he did not beat Superman himself. Did I get it right?:D(never seen the movie just my guess.)

[ShadowGUN]

Also, was there any edit on Luthor shooting his assistant?

Yes. You supposed to see her silloutte in the paper window and Lex shooting at her but it was remove.

[Rolling Cloud]

So wait..
I missed it..
How EXACTLY did Superman come back from the dead?
And don't give me that "Its' cause he's Superman!" bull..
...

IIRC, the comic said it had to do with some kryptionian medicine stuff. >.>

[Soul]

Somebody used the Dragonballs to wish him back.;)
Makes the most sense..

[RockmanDash]

I think Lex has a thing for Superman...

[Raditz]

Ew, Lex looks like he's about to "have his way" with Superman. o_O

[Don_East]

"Who's your daddy?"

Okay, that felt wrong.

[ShadowGUN]

WTF? Lex was supposed to beat the crap out of Superman in that scene but instead Superman is already on the floor. This is really getting horrible edit.

[Naruto D.Luffy]

"Who's your daddy?"

Okay, that felt wrong.

That was a great line.

Also, clones, what the heck.

[RockmanDash]

"Who's your daddy?"

Okay, that felt wrong.

>_> I can see what SCENES got cut off now.

[warnerbroman]

that and the scene where lex goes gay masochist for him


I like the cut


but other than that these edits are ticking me off

[PC!]

"Who's your daddy?"

"Red and green, the colors of Christmas."

That line was so random I couldn't help but laugh.

And keeping the corpse of his arch enemy in a tube in his lab? This is one creepy Lex Luthor.

[Raditz]

WTF? Lex was supposed to beat the crap out of Superman in that scene but instead Superman is already on the floor. This is really getting horrible edit.
That reminds me of an edit from the DBZ Manga. Android 17 grabs his gun and is about to kill this old man with it, but in the next panel, it's back in his gun holster and he's holding his fist up to thr old man's face. >_>

[Dynoblaze]

Okay, I didn't expect to movie to air 100% uncensored, BUT WTF?!? What's with these horrible choppy cuts of some scenes? Okay, maybe you don't want to show Doomsday's neck snapping spree but DON'T cut the epic Superman/Doomsday battle. I mean come on..I see Superman about to pile drive Doomsday into the ground and as the impact is about to happen suddenly we cut to a shot of the crater? :mad:
This horrible editing is making all the fights seem like I'm watching an illegal internet download in HD :D :eek:

[Dudley]

So instead of dying his pulse became reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally slow, giving him time to heal?

That's.....odd.

[RockmanDash]

Hey it's Bender!

.....And Superman killed him...well I guess thats why Futurama got canned =D.(the movie Bender is a clone ssssh!)

[tb4000]

Oh no he did'ent.

Kill a child, you get dropped onto a cop car. Superman's law, baby. :yawn:

[warnerbroman]

oooh now toyman gets killed of


so is the real superman alive?

[ShadowGUN]

No surprised they cut the scene where the Toyman get dropped into the car.

And TOM finally shows up.

[Space Cadet]

Wow, that was the most obvious edit of the movie. Not seeing Toyman falling on the cop car.

[Raditz]

Supes killed Bender!:crying:

I HATE THIS MOVIE N-
*realizes it's Toyman, who has just killed a 4 year old*
.....

YEAH!

Mod Note: Watch the language.

[Pyro]

What the hell kind of version of Toyman is that? :eek: He's like some goth homosexual.What is it about Toyman that gave you the impression that he was a homosexual? Lex, I can see, but Toyman?

[Dynoblaze]

that and the scene where lex goes gay masochist for him


I like the cut


but other than that these edits are ticking me off

Don't deny people the beauty of that scene.:evil:

WHO'S YOUR DADDY!!?!!

[RockmanDash]

What is it about Toyman that gave you the impression that he was a homosexual? Lex, I can see, but Toyman?

Really I see Toyman has a philo:D

[Bunai]

I think Lex has a thing for Superman...
hes obsessed with him...
nothing sexual obviously

-the guy wanted to either user Supes for evil
-kill him, himself
-figure out who he really is

so yeah. someone else offing him caused him to snap lol

[Raditz]

Wow, this movie is being edited to hell.

Somebody make an edit list after this movie is done plz.

[Dudley]

What's with the ratings warning, if they're going to have all the edits?

Badass Superman scares me.

[Dynoblaze]

Wow, that was the most obvious edit of the movie. Not seeing Toyman falling on the cop car.

Really? You mean you didn't notice all the choppy cuts to almost every fight scene in here so far?

[Raditz]

Superman, if you kill that kitty.......

SWEAR TO GOD MAN!:mad:

[warnerbroman]

psycho super is scary....




these edit are really REALLY annoying!!!

[Dynoblaze]

Wow, this movie is being edited to hell.

Somebody make an edit list after this movie is done plz.

Anyone know if this is on I-Tunes?
Oh, and not to get off topic but I just found Batman Beyond Return of the Joker UNCUT ON I-TUNES OMG CAN APPLE GET ANY COOLER!!!!!!?:eek:

[Space Cadet]

Really? You mean you didn't notice all the choppy cuts to almost every fight scene in here so far?

Yeah, but if you weren't paying attention closely, you would miss it. That edit with Toyman was obvious.

[ShadowGUN]

Superman, if you kill that kitty.......

SWEAR TO GOD MAN!:mad:

Hellboy will surely kick his ass :) .

[Dynoblaze]

psycho super is scary....




these edit are really REALLY annoying!!!

I know I would have rather had the Supes/Lois snuggle cut entirely and not have these little "skips" in the movie.

[Dynoblaze]

Hellboy will surely kick his ass :) .

..............Chuck Norris.

[Dudley]

I thought he was going to go to Lex's secret lair under the barbershop.

[Raditz]

You know what? I think all these cuts are part of a plot to make everyone buy the Uncut DVDs and give WB more money.

CN is not behind this! WARNER BROS. IS!

[Bunai]

he gave himself a LobotomyEWWWW

he could have remained Lex's play thang
but nooo

had to go and ruin my fantasy

[warnerbroman]

..............Chuck Norris.Mr T


the stan lee movies were less edited

[Raditz]

*Superman barges in*

LEX! HOW DARE YOU CHEAT ON ME!

[Soul]

At first, i was like...
"isn't that a little outta've character for Lois.."
Ha.

[Caswin]

You know what? I think all these cuts are part of a plot to make everyone buy the Uncut DVDs and give WB more money.That crossed my mind, too.

The sad part is, it might work. (Although given how someone could just as easily not realize the movie is edited and just think it's poorly done, this could very well hurt DVD sales.)

[RockmanDash]

*Superman barges in*

LEX! HOW DARE YOU CHEAT ON ME!

For some reason I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I saw that xD.

[Dynoblaze]

That crossed my mind, too.

The sad part is, it might work. (Although given how someone could just as easily not realize the movie is edited and just think it's poorly done, this could very well hurt DVD sales.)

It's woking on me my finger is hovering right above the buy button on I- Tunes:eek: Must...resist...but can't...stand..the..choppiness.

[warnerbroman]

is bizarro going to be in this

[ShadowGUN]

Hahaha Luthor is in trouble now.

[RockmanDash]

Luthor's evil plan of having a army of Superman all to himself has failed.

[Bunai]

wow...Fatal Attraction moment :sweat:
went a widdle overboard


if anything. the TV edit makes me want to buy the DVD lol

[Dynoblaze]

Hahaha Luthor is in trouble now.

Superman says "papa spank":yawn:

[Dudley]

I thought he was going to shoot his eye beams at him from afar.

[RockmanDash]

xD Lol! Superman closes the door instead of fighting Luthor.

[LordTerminal]

Okay, when did Toonami lower their standards to 4Kids levels now? Seems like only last year we were getting that Hellboy Blood and Iron movie with a gallon of uneditted blood but to do this chop job to Superman? Doesn't he have enough problems with a line of bad video games?

[Raditz]

Lex - You've been a VERY BAD BOY.

Oh god, it's official.

LEX IS IN LOVE WITH SUPERMAN. SOMEBODY GET THIS STORY TO THE DAILY PLANET.

[Bunai]

wow...down to his speedo
*drool*

"you wont be missed" LOL

Lex should clone his clones better.

[warnerbroman]

he's about to do it a again.....never mind but something tells me it lex's *training* made him crazy

[RockmanDash]

Lex - You've been a VERY BAD BOY.

Oh god, it's official.

LEX IS IN LOVE WITH SUPERMAN. SOMEBODY GET THIS STORY TO THE DAILY PLANET.

>_> It's been official ever since we saw the clone bodies of Superman!

[Don_East]

Back in black, I hit the sack,
I've been too long, I'm glad to be back
Yes I'm let loose from the noose,
That's kept me hangin' about

[Soul]

Lex - You've been a VERY BAD BOY.

Oh god, it's official.

LEX IS IN LOVE WITH SUPERMAN. SOMEBODY GET THIS STORY TO THE DAILY PLANET.
I agree.
:D

[Raditz]

When Superman was standing on that ledge, with lightning flashing behind him, did anyone else think "Batman"?

[Dynoblaze]

Lex - You've been a VERY BAD BOY.

Oh god, it's official.

LEX IS IN LOVE WITH SUPERMAN. SOMEBODY GET THIS STORY TO THE DAILY PLANET.

Someone has to get the Uncut version of this movie and put together an illegal mash up of all these classic Superman/lex moments online

[Dudley]

That robot's cooler than Alfred.

[warnerbroman]

Okay, when did Toonami lower their standards to 4Kids levels now? Seems like only last year we were getting that Hellboy Blood and Iron movie with a gallon of uneditted blood but to do this chop job to Superman? Doesn't he have enough problems with a line of bad video games?
Finally someone noticed!

[Dynoblaze]

When Superman was standing on that ledge, with lightning flashing behind him, did anyone else think "Batman"?

Yeah, in the DVD extra cut scenes there's one where Batman sues Superman for stealing his move.

[Bunai]

i hurt you, because i love you

nutty supeyclone

[Dudley]

Bad Superman vs. Badder Superman?

no.

Bad Superman vs. Badass Superman.

I'm glad Lois got cut from the glass falling. It would've been lame if no one did.

[Dynoblaze]

i hurt you, because i love you

nutty supeyclone

Sounds like something a dom would say to a sub XD

[Caswin]

That robot's cooler than Alfred.Bah. Not possible.

[Raditz]

Now here is what I don't understand about this movie.

This is called Superman: Doomsday, yet Doomsday is killed in like the first 20 minutes of the movie....

And the battle is only like...... 10 minutes long.

Seriously, I was expecting a huge, epic half-hour long battle between them.

[warnerbroman]

i hurt you, because i love you

nutty supeyclone"and I love you to death" billy and mandy

[tb4000]

The shot of Lois looking up while the glass is falling around her, and then you see the bloody scratch on her cheek....very well done. That was a greatly animated scene.

[Soul]

I'm definitely gonna buy the DVD.

"Superman gets his arse handed to him... and dies"

"Superman Returns ..evil"

"The REAL Superman Returns back in Black"

:D

[Caswin]

Now here is what I don't understand about this movie.

This is called Superman: Doomsday, yet Doomsday is killed in like the first 20 minutes of the movie....

And the battle is only like...... 10 minutes long.

Seriously, I was expecting a huge, epic half-hour long battle between them.The Doomsday title doesn't just refer to the monster. All the events of the movie fall under the blanket title of "Doomsday."

As to the battle... bear in mind that this version is being pretty badly cut up. Rest assured that the real thing is much more satisfying.

[Dynoblaze]

The Doomsday title doesn't just refer to the monster. All the events of the movie fall under the blanket title of "Doomsday."

As to the battle... bear in mind that this version is being pretty badly cut up. Rest assured that the real thing is much more satisfying.
The REAL fight is epic.
God..whoever made these cuts..they didn't even TRY...they didn't even TRY......

[Raditz]

The Doomsday title doesn't just refer to the monster. All the events of the movie fall under the blanket title of "Doomsday."

As to the battle... bear in mind that this version is being pretty badly cut up. Rest assured that the real thing is much more satisfying.
Alright, but I still wanted to see more of Doomsday. He's just so damn cool.

[Rolling Cloud]

Alright, but I still wanted to see more of Doomsday. He's just so damn cool.

Read "Death of Superman" then.

o.o

[Don_East]

Are those stupid white flashes are just a TV edit. I always hated those.

[LordTerminal]

DAMN! Superman got some!

[Space Cadet]

DAMN! Superman got some!

He sure did, he sure did.:cool:

[Don_East]

He puts on the glasses and then Lois realizes that he's Clark Kent. But wait, didn't she already figure that out?

Luthor's still alive? How did he survive a fall like that?

[warnerbroman]

superman vs superman prime

[RockmanDash]

Luthor: It would..SEEM:evil:

[Dudley]

Best secret identity reveal ever.

[ShadowGUN]

He puts on the glasses and then Lois realizes that he's Clark Kent.

Luthor's still alive? He did he survive a fall like that?

Well he is Luthor after all. You expect him to die just like that?

[Raditz]

Wow, Superman is such a pimp.

And Lois is just... dumb. Seriously.

Lois - Who are you Superman?
Superman - *puts on glasses*
Lois - CLARK! =)

lulz

[Dynoblaze]

Well he is Luthor after all. You expect him to die just like that.

Besides if he was dead they would have censored it :cool:

[bigddan11]

"rectum" was said. Someone who has seen the movie before will have to say whether or not its edited.
It wasn't edited. That is what is actually said on the DVD. I watched it earlier today knowing I would miss it tonight. It sounds like the edits were mostly ass to butt and some of the violence with blood during the hits.

[tb4000]

Lois knew he was Clark beforehand, why would she go see Ma Kent if she didn't? His putting on the glasses means that he's going back to being Clark Kent as well, not just Supes.

[Bunai]

Sounds like something a dom would say to a sub XD XD this movie demonstrated that

lol @ secret identity

[ShadowGUN]

Wow, Superman is such a pimp.

And Lois is just... dumb. Seriously.

Lois - Who are you Superman?
Superman - *puts on glasses*
Lois - CLARK! =)

lulz

I believe she already knew he was Clark since the movie started. After all she went to his home in Smallvile to check on Martha

[warnerbroman]

she wanted him to tell her

[Bunai]

Luthor: It would..SEEM:evil: *puts on monocle* Indeed!

[Dynoblaze]

Oh I gave up I hit buy on I-Tunes for this movie:(

[Funkatron]

Instead of dodging the issue like he was in the beginning, he was admitting he was Clark Kent. It's a sign of trust.

[Mr. Ralph]

those superman clones didn't appear to have wieners:sad:

[Bunai]

those superman clones didn't appear to have wieners:sad: :sad: thats what japan does

and why would they have wieners? they're clones

[Mr. Ralph]

well if they're clones then they should be exactly the same as superman; i.e. have wieners.

[bigddan11]

:sad: thats what japan does

and why would they have wieners? they're clones
Believe it or not, but that particular part of the movie is never shown. The have light blocking it out on the DVD as well.

[Bunai]

clones are never as good as the original XD

it would be unnecessary for them to have one
well...unless they drink a lot of wawa

lol i know its a clever way of "blocking"
but the idea is still funny

[Vermillion]

I have the DVD, I got it when it first came out. I kinda don't know why, I'm not really a Superman fan, but I guess the title "Superman Doomsday" sounded cool, and it said "Based on The Death of Superman comics" so it got me interested. That said, I thought this movie was good, not great, just good. I never read the comics so I don't know if they really ruined anything. I'd give it a 7/10.

I really disliked the marks on Superman's face, they seemed unnecessary and kinda annoying. I haven't watched it in awhile though.

[Dynoblaze]

Now I'm going to go online and see if anyone has put together illegal vids of Superman and Lex's greatest.....hits..:sweat:

[Bunai]

Now I'm going to go online and see if anyone has put together illegal vids of Superman and Lex's greatest.....hits..:sweat:
there is that one clip ^_^

[warnerbroman]

it felt like the JLU version of the doomsday fight was longer

[bigddan11]

it felt like the JLU version of the doomsday fight was longer
On the DVD the fight goes on nearly 25 minutes. That leaves 55 minutes to cover the death, burial, and resurrection of Superman as well as what led up to Doomsday. Needless to say it and the fight between the two Superman's end up being 35 minutes of the 75 minutes, meaning that nearly half the movie is those two fights alone.

[Space Cadet]

On the DVD the fight goes on nearly 25 minutes. That leaves 55 minutes to cover the death, burial, and resurrection of Superman as well as what led up to Doomsday. Needless to say it and the fight between the two Superman's end up being 35 minutes of the 75 minutes, meaning that nearly half the movie is those two fights alone.

Except in the TV edit, the fight was shortened significantly.

[sdp]

Well I saw was the beginning until he dies and he first returns and then I started viewing it again when clone superman removes the lead kryptonite.

So I missed a big chunk but I was able to figure out what happened just not how the real superman revived.


What do I think about it?

I liked it a lot, I was cautiously optimistic after many people didn't seem to like it and were very critical so I thought they messed it up but I was very glad that I enjoyed it. I thought things were handled very well. I didn't like how Superman looked, those awful lines from the first season of JL were made even worse, while I liked Lois I thought her design looked like a totally different character, she reminded me of Smallville Lana.

IMO this was much better than any similar stories done on STAS/JL/JLU.

[macattack]

Well, on one hand, Toonami was there, on the other, it wasn't. I think they just weren't in the mood (or lacked the cash) to manufacture Toonami bumpers for a one-time showing, so we got a messed-up bumper parade that was both Toonami and not Toonami.

I haven't seen the DVD, but I do think I saw some obvious editing (sudden cutaways before a punch would land, primarily).

The movie went along at a brisk pace, almost too brisk, to the point where it could be considered borderline false advertising. Doomsday was wiped out a third into the movie, the rest revolved around Lex Luthor and his cloning scheme. Still, there was a lot of surprises in store (Mercy getting shot point-blank by Luthor, for example), and a seemingly pointless joke villain (Toyman) suddenly becoming a figure in the movie by getting dropped a bazillion stories to his death. They should've spent more time on Lois and Martha Kent at least, when they sat down to talk, that would've been a really poignant scene that would've given the movie some extra heart.

Some really decent voice work here, especially from Adam Baldwin as Superman and Jason Marsters as Luthor. Cree Summer basically did her She-Hulk voice for Mercy (except without She-Hulk's narcissitic dialogue she wasn't as annoying), and Anne Heche's performance was better when Lois was energetic or angry, instead of frightened or saddened.

Finally, we end with a cliffhanger. I want more, dammit!

[Master Moron]

Okay, I started reading page one and all I saw were people talking about the ethics of killing and how the U.S. government is evil. Anyway, what was with those wrinkles on Superman's face? He looks so old.

This movie was okay, I guess, but I was expecting more violence, I hated how they always cut away from the impacts. I wanted to see Toyman splatter.

So, I remember playing the Death and Return of Superman video game when I was a kid. Weren't there supposed to be a whole bunch of Superman imposters after Superman died? Like a cyborg Superman, and a metal Superman, and a kid Superman, and some green Superman?

Coolest part of the movie hands down was when Luthor told clone Superman to bring it on and he just closed the door and crushed him. Too bad Luthor survived.

[Vermillion]

Anyway, what was with those wrinkles on Superman's face? He looks so old.


I totally agree as I said in my earlier post, they just seemed unnecessary. But on the DVD version I remember alot of punches that weren't cut, some were pretty brutal to look at, I just didn't expect it from a Superman movie when I bought it I guess haha. But I don't know how much they edited as I didn't bother to watch it on TV.

[Space Cadet]

This movie was okay, I guess, but I was expecting more violence, I hated how they always cut away from the impacts. I wanted to see Toyman splatter.



I heard its more brutal in the uncut version. I believe there is one scene where Superman is coughing up a pool of blood on the ground.

[Hobbes829]

i realize there are cost considerations, but 70 minutes felt very short for a story like this. Much of the film felt rushed. Also, anne heche was a bad choice for lois. And as much as i like adam baldwin (he's the hero of canton, the man they call jane) i still don't think he was a great choice for superman.

[HEATXZ]

The best Superman movie i ever seen and like, I should buy the DVD

[TacoHunter]

Wow...this was crap on Toonami. All the fights were so cut up, you'd only see like 2 punches then the fight would be over. Its not like the movie was all that super awesome before...but...IT WAS HORRIBLE ON CN!

I have to blame Warner Bros probably didn't want to hurt DVD sales, so they did...that...to it.

[R-Taco]

How on Earth did no one catch the Kevin Smith cameo and the joke that went along with it?

KS: "A giant spider? Like we really needed him to take care of that."

A reference to this story (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgYhLIThTvk).

[Master Moron]

Okay, when did Toonami lower their standards to 4Kids levels now? Seems like only last year we were getting that Hellboy Blood and Iron movie with a gallon of uneditted blood but to do this chop job to Superman? Doesn't he have enough problems with a line of bad video games?

4K!ds levels? Don't be silly. If this was 4K!ds Lex would have sent Mercy to his dungeon.

[Silly McGooses]

LMFAO. Dungeon.

[Ultraman]

Wow...this was crap on Toonami. All the fights were so cut up, you'd only see like 2 punches then the fight would be over. Its not like the movie was all that super awesome before...but...IT WAS HORRIBLE ON CN!

I have to blame Warner Bros probably didn't want to hurt DVD sales, so they did...that...to it.

That's the problem. I hate edit and scenes cut out. Gosh, I felt like I was watching it on Toon Disney/Jetix ********.

Good thing I own DVD. I suggest you to get DVD. Definitely worth to own it.

[Daikun]

So, I just watched this movie for the first time, and I have one major beef about it.

WHAT DID THEY DO TO THE CHARACTER DESIGNS?!? Did they outsource to another studio who had never seen the Kids' WB! series? Clark looked like he was growing wrinkles, and Lois and Mercy didn't even look like themselves.

[Blackstar]

How on Earth did no one catch the Kevin Smith cameo and the joke that went along with it?

KS: "A giant spider? Like we really needed him to take care of that."

A reference to this story (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgYhLIThTvk).

I caught it. I was thinking when I saw that part "The guy looks like Kevin Smith!."

[Silverstar]

So, I remember playing the Death and Return of Superman video game when I was a kid. Weren't there supposed to be a whole bunch of Superman imposters after Superman died? Like a cyborg Superman, and a metal Superman, and a kid Superman, and some green Superman?

You mean The Cyborg, The Eradicator and Superboy. If they included all of the 'replacement Supermen' and their origins, it would've only confused casual fans who don't read the comics and it would've stretched the movie out to unimaginable lengths. I guess the clone Supes was supposed to be more or less an amalgamation of all of them.

I just found it odd how the movie was called Superman Doomsday when Doomsday himself was laid out after the 20 minutes and basically forgotten about after that. I figured there would be some significance to how we never saw Doomsday's body after the fight, but he never surfaced again.

[Dynoblaze]

So, I just watched this movie for the first time, and I have one major beef about it.

WHAT DID THEY DO TO THE CHARACTER DESIGNS?!? Did they outsource to another studio who had never seen the Kids' WB! series? Clark looked like he was growing wrinkles, and Lois and Mercy didn't even look like themselves.

This was a separate story that DOES NOT take place in what we know as the DCAU.

[Dynoblaze]

4K!ds levels? Don't be silly. If this was 4K!ds Lex would have sent Mercy to his dungeon.

If it was 4Kids Lex would have an invisible gun aimed at Mercy :D

[warnerbroman]

I just found it odd how the movie was called Superman Doomsday when Doomsday himself was laid out after the 20 minutes and basically forgotten about after that. I figured there would be some significance to how we never saw Doomsday's body after the fight, but he never surfaced again. it also mean psycho supermans NWO on metropolis

[Blackstar]

The thing is, someone could have wrote Superman: Doomsday as a live action script. This would have been a better Superman Returns than the one that we got.

[Rick Jones]

The thing is, someone could have wrote Superman: Doomsday as a live action script. This would have been a better Superman Returns than the one that we got.
I've been telling people that since this was first released

[Knight]

The thing is, someone could have wrote Superman: Doomsday as a live action script. This would have been a better Superman Returns than the one that we got. I was thinking the same thing when I watched this.

[warnerbroman]

4K!ds levels? Don't be silly. If this was 4K!ds Lex would have sent Mercy to his dungeon.so true

another thing why was his suit not ripped up like the iconic scene in the comic when he dies


and based on on the re-watch lex cloned him with the stuff he learned as superman but not as clark kent therefore he's off

and like the justice lord version he is superman all the time

[Dai_Maxwell]

I, too, skipped 9 pages of posts after making it through most of the first so forgive me if I'm addressing some of the things that have already been mentioned..

What happened to the character designs and VA's? I mean this in the larger sense: have they just been forbidden to use them? Did it get too expensive to pay residuals or whatever to the original designers for the art and actors? Is WBA trying to making a good product "on the cheap" and instead making a cheap product or do they not even care about the good, just the cheap part?

Have I just been so super-spoiled by the quality of the DCAU all these years that anything less is a letdown? Supe's craggy face, Whites balding head, an anorexic Luthor, and a goth Toyman? Or lines like "Who's your daddy?"

Maybe I should have watched the DVD which I have but have never watched and I would ahve felt differently to a degree, but instead saw this last night on Toonami. It was a pretty big disappointment. After "Brainiac Attacks" I was wary of this, but had hoped they had learned the lesson that while cream rises to the top, crap sinks to the bottom. It seems they haven't

I have watched "Teen Titan's Trouble in Tokyo" several times on CN. I'll never watch this again on CN.


.

[Gokou Ruri]

I just found it odd how the movie was called Superman Doomsday when Doomsday himself was laid out after the 20 minutes and basically forgotten about after that. I figured there would be some significance to how we never saw Doomsday's body after the fight, but he never surfaced again. That's what happens when you edit out half the fight :sweat:

[Jacob T. Paschal]

Goodness people, do we not pay attention? This film is not a part of the DCAU!

[Neo Ultra Mike]

You know I also skipped over most of the other reviews of this and just did my own. I do know that this is not DCAU or anything and my review is based off the Toonami version and not the original. So with that, here we go.

I Suppose the first thing you need to mention when talking about The Superman Doomsday special is the question of whether or not it's better then the last Supeman DTV. You know, Brainac attacks, the OOC mess of Luthor and Brainaic with some generic superman heroics thrown into the mix. And the answer is yes, this special is overall better then that. It's not perfect, and it wasn't as good as I thought it would be but it is defintley better then Brainac Attacks though.

Unlike BA, this special though has one specific problem, if we're talking the Cartoon Network version: Editting. Okay, let me get this straight: This has been billed as PG-DSV special and every commerical break we have warnings about it not being a strictly Y7 Kids affair. And this comes from the network that allows Naruto to mostly run uncensored and allowed for all sorts of hits to pass in Justice League Unlimited, which only had white flashes so the attack would look better (according to Bruce Timm who posted awhile back). And since this is a movie, the restrictions are lighter then a show too. So then why are there so many freaking edits here? Okay yeah they imply all the brutal acts (Doomsday killing civillans, Superman's "passing", Lex shooting Mercy and Clone Super dropping Toyman) but they cut away from it. At first I thoguht it was just an artistic trick, but it was obvious by the Doomsday/Superman fight they were just skipping the actual impact moments of the fight. I mean really, WHY was this done? It had absolutley no reasoning behind it. It's like Cartoon Network at the last second chickened out of showing it fully and added some last minute edits to make it kid friendly . Really if there was no other reason behind putting this on Toonami, the fact it would of been editted less (as in none at all) probably would of been a reason. Toonami aired Princess Mononoke uncensored and that's worse overall then what happened here. But CN's Mentality... ugh I'm not even going to go into that trainwreck.

But edits aside, there were still some other problems with this storyline. For instance the whole impact of Superman's Death didn't really feel too... impactful. I mean Justice League handled it better in "Hereafter". In fact in "A Better World" and "The Doomsday Sanction" they also handled how a Superman vs Doomsday fight should look. Even with the eidts I could tell that though there were some impactful shots it really didn't look nearly as well done. And as cool as lifting your foe and piledriving him from space into the ground is, it can't compete with a lobomity. Also the whole idea of Superman being seen in a bad limelight due to actions he didn't even really mean to do... isn't that how the original Superman "Legacy" ended (though at least that put the idea Supes worked to earn back the trust of people, and even then there were still untrusting members who felt he could go rouge at anytime). And obviously the whole Superman clone after he's dead idea is from the comics (as is this special) but they really could of done more with this rogue Superman with a slightly cracked version of ethics. Killing Toyman and attemtping to Kill Luthor was good stuff but really more could of been done.

I guess in the end though besides the fighting (I have to admitt the Superman vs Clone Superman impact shots were done well and besides the editting and a bit too much moral preaching was actually better then the Doomsday fight) this was also a love story between Lois and Supes. One that actually did something I wished they did in Brainaic Attacks: Have Supes trust Lois enough to reveal his secret idenity. I like too how she did figure it out knowing Supes well enough but just wanted him to admitt it which he did at the end. I also liked they're banter and her seducing Lex enough to get the drop on him. So good stuff from her in this one actually. They didn't really resolve Jimmy's plotline (which they actually did better in Brianiac's movie) but he also had some decent reactions with Lois. Plus they really did Lex's character well in this one: wanting a new power supply, being sad his brilliance didn't kill superman, him impacting a Superman clone with a Krypnotie Led device in the brain, Killing Mercy and having the clone superman try to kill his arch rivals... defintley felt more Lexish then that last movie. plus even if it wasn't Clancy Brown, James Masters does good work. The whole cast despite not being the original animated cast does some good stuff here and even if they can't live up to STAS/JL they're one of the next best things.

In short though not a perfect movie by any means (or perfectly preseneted) a decent one all the same. I would of prerfered more time spent building up Doomsday and the whole Superman death angle and the clone angle in general but for only 70 something minutes it was a worthwhile expierence. To anyone who really likes this movie though, just buy the DVD of it because watching it on CN I'm sure is a much less rewarding expierence for you Doomsday lovers.

[Mad Mod 49]

Have I just been so super-spoiled by the quality of the DCAU all these years that anything less is a letdown?


Sadly, that's what happens with alot of people. IMO, it's rather irrational; the DCAU can't stay around forever (Bruce Timm himself was tiring of it toward the end-I mean, the guys worked 13 years on it!) and even if things are lower in quality afterwards, that has to be accepted.

Personally, I enjoyed this for what it was and thought that this version of Lex was great even without Clancy Brown's kickass vocal talents. The only thing that always bugs me is that damn robot and his role in bringing Superman back to life. It just seems too contrived. :sweat:

Then again, Superman dying and coming back to life was always weird. I guess he was just "mostly dead" and that's different from "all dead" after all (Ten points for whoever gets that reference.)

[Jacob T. Paschal]

On the subject of the DCAU: It's a shame it could not go on espicially because there's still things that can be done with it depending on the subject manner they are willing to go into.

On the subject of this movie: I know I've said this a million times already but I'm not very affected by Superman's death, this incarnation couldn't attatch itself to me whatsoever so the film sort of lags for me.

[Light Lucario]

Lex- "Even gods must die."

Man, Lex got some of the best lines in the movie. Even at the beginning he was being so darn villainous that it was awesome. I missed a bit of the first half hour of the movie, but I was able to understand everything. While I did feel like the fight between Superman and Doomsday felt a bit short, and it helps now to know that it was edited, I thought that it was intense. When Superman died in Lois' arms like that and everyone started to cry, I actually almost wanted to do that myself, despite how I knew he would come back to life anyway since he is Superman. The funeral was sad and Lois going to Mrs. Kent's house to express her pain was touching. It would have been nice if we saw more of that to make it even more touching, but it was still good.

Lex is offically upsessed with Superman. I wasn't too surprised that he felt cheated out of casuing his demise, but I was surprised when he shot his assistent like that. That was the only time I closed my eyes in the movie. Toyman looks and acts a lot different than how I remember him from the animated series of Superman. He didn't usually attack children from what I remember. I thought that it was so cool seeing Superman punching out of his own grave like that. I was so what expecting it to take only three days for that too happen since Superman has a lot of simularities to being a Jesus figure, but that probably would have crossed a line for some people.

Of course, Lex is controlling that Superman clone. That was somewhat surprising. Lex really needs to get a better or healther hooby. Dark Superman was so darn intense to watch. He actually killed Toyman, which crosses the moral line of Superman and most other superheroes. Toyman did kill an innocent child, which is obviously horrible, but I personally don't go for the whole eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth kind of policy. I knew that part was edited out since we didn't even hear him crash on the car. I also thought that Dark Superman was going to kill that poor little kitty cat. One of my favorite aspects of the movie was how it took the idea of superheroes crossing a line to over-ride the law and become the law themselves. Superman could easily have taken over Metropollis since no law inforcement could stand up to him, but he chose a different moral standard. With Dark Superman, we see what it would have been like if Superman strictly enforced the law to everyone to the point where he kills people. That was just so good and intense to watch.

Lex had some more good lines with the clone Superman, such as "Red and green. The colors of Christmas." When he saw that the real body was gone like that, I seriously got a empty tomb feeling. So basically Superman didn't die, but his pulse was slowed down really slow so that he could heal. Okay, a bit weird, but he's Superman. Dark Superman fighting the police like that was scary. Lois and Lex kissing was kind of distribing. I didn't think that she would want him. And now a heard of Supermen clones. Yeah, Lex has a thing for Superman. At least Dark Superman was able to save Lois and Jimmy. I still remember how he got rid of Lex's lead ball in his head and it was still creepy. I thought that he wanted a new hairdo. Anyway, Dark Superman really could have killed Lex, but I didn't think that would work out.

The last fight between Dark Superman and Black Superman was awesome. Two evenly matched superheroes fighting to the death really calls for some excellent animation and that's what we got. It was kind of sad to see the clone die, even though he was being completely evil with his means to protect the city, but it had to be done. At least now Superman is accepted by Lois again and by the people. I loved how he was finally able to tell Lois who he really was, even though she already knew it. It just shows how he trusts her and how he values their relationship. Lex at the end was a good way to end the movie. Lex: "It would seem." Just shows how he's determinted to find a way to kill Superman. That would be Lex.

Overall, while the movie does have some editing here and there, I completely enjoyed it. This is one of the better movies that CN has shown for a while. I'm going to be buying the DVD at some point in order to enjoy the movie even more since I may be missing out from some of the fight scenes from this airing. An intense and enjoyable ride of a movie.

[warnerbroman]

On the subject of this movie: I know I've said this a million times already but I'm not very affected by Superman's death, this incarnation couldn't attach itself to me whatsoever so the film sort of lags for me. if you are talking about the CN move yes I agree with you but the real fight was much more brutal

[screw on head]

Please gang, if you're going to post in this thread, please make sure your posts are well thought and are contributing to the discussion. Thanks!

[Freedom Fighter]

Just had to chime in on this since this was something different for Toonami in quite a while.

I had another one of those shocks because I'm so used to seeing Superman animated the DCAU way. And then here, with characters with different builds, different VAs, everyone has darker complexions (what was up with that, anyway?)... it was so jarring it took me half the movie to get used to the differences from what I had been so accustomed to.

Another nagging thing was all of the avoidance of direct hits. Once again, particularly in the first half of the movie (the Superman-Doomsday battle). I didn't bother to read through the whole thread, but it looks like CN edited the movie. They gave it a TV-PG DSV and still edited out direct impacts? That seriously took all of the impact (no pun intended) out of that fight. And that hurts when the fight ends with Superman 'dying.' Granted, I knew that was going to happen because of the basic knowledge I had of the Doomsday mini-arc to begin with, but seriously. If the fight really was as awesome as it intended to be, the edits left the fight at a 'just going through the motions' bit.

The TV-PG was a good thing too, though, as it served as separation from the kid-friendly DCAU shows. I think the aforementioned hard-hitting violence (though partially muted) and a lot more sensuality given the Lois and Clark scenes were well-warranted and were something different to people only used to the aforementioned shows like myself. Not to knock on the DCAU, but those shows had to be slightly watered down for it to be acceptable for kids. It's nice to see a Superman feature that skews closer to the comic books... it's a welcome change of pace, and hopefully DC decides to do another one of these.

I guess have to lodge a minor complaint about the plot. Entertaining, yes, but probably not as clear as it probably could have been. Superman-Doomsday to the quick Superman return to the clones that follow Lex's order to the Superman showdown at the end. I can't quite put my finger on what exactly is wrong or is missing. Too fast? Too slow? Too convenient? I really don't know. Eh...

Nice diversion for 90 minutes, liked the change of pace, but the edits were jarring enough to dampen my enjoyment of the film.

Still thought this was a whole lot more entertaining than the 'Superman: Brainiac' flick, which thankfully I don't remember much of.

"Superman: Doomsday": 3.5/5

[Master Moron]

You mean The Cyborg, The Eradicator and Superboy. If they included all of the 'replacement Supermen' and their origins, it would've only confused casual fans who don't read the comics and it would've stretched the movie out to unimaginable lengths. I guess the clone Supes was supposed to be more or less an amalgamation of all of them.


Well, the video game managed to include all of them. It wasn't confusing and it was only about ten levels.

[Wonderwall]

Well, the video game managed to include all of them. It wasn't confusing and it was only about ten levels.

Pacing of games is a different beast than a movie. Those 10 levels have the potential of spanning a few hours. A luxury that movies don't have. It might be part of the reason video game based movies are 99% terrible.

[Mad Mod 49]

On the subject of the DCAU: It's a shame it could not go on espicially because there's still things that can be done with it depending on the subject manner they are willing to go into.



Again, I think it had a good run, but it's time to move on. The DCAU was great, but had it gone on it would monopolize the entire DC superhero genre, and other people's skills or interpretations wouldn't be able to be done. Bruce Timm and co. weren't the first great DC storytellers and they won't be the last unless there's allowed to be room for more. It's as simple as that.

And believe me, alot of this opinion has to do with respect for Bruce Timm as well. Again, he's stated himself that he's worn out from doing the DCAU, since he did it for a whole decade, and he shouldn't have to continue if he doesn't want to. (Most) of what he's done is satisfying enough.

[Beefy]

Much better than Brainiac Attacks.

LOL at Farmer with Shotgun.
As soon as I saw him I knew he was gonna die.

[warnerbroman]

Imagine the guy who's gonna have to mop up that room full of dead naked supermen.

[Dai_Maxwell]

Sadly, that's what happens with alot of people. IMO, it's rather irrational; the DCAU can't stay around forever (Bruce Timm himself was tiring of it toward the end-I mean, the guys worked 13 years on it!) and even if things are lower in quality afterwards, that has to be accepted.

I have to take an almost violent exception to this line of thinking. One of the main things that I will always feel about the DCAU was it had QUALITY in animation.. After JLU finished, what did we get? The Batman and Legion of Superheroes. One of their main failures was not that it wasn't the in "DCAU" but that the artistic quality dropped several notches - at least to me. It looked cheap. It looked bad. The Batman show seemed to get better later on, but it was often hard for me to watch and enjoy. The LoSH... I turned off a couple of eps in the middle of watching.

I recently watched the Batman: Gotham Knight DVD and some of the artwork was positively stunning. If WBA ever decides to make a full length feature film with the quality of the animation used in BGK - along with a good story and VA - I think they will be stunned at the results at the box-office. And even if they never do this, if they were to just realize that trying to make a better product will make them more money, I would be happier. And more likely to buy their products.

To sum it up, I feel that the American companies still look at animation as being for children and they fail to realize that as they grow up to be adults, they still want a well told, even better animated product than they got when they were kids. And after almost 16? years of the DCAU, they should do it at least as well, if not try to do it better.

[R-Taco]

I have to take an almost violent exception to this line of thinking. One of the main things that I will always feel about the DCAU was it had QUALITY in animation.. After JLU finished, what did we get? The Batman and Legion of Superheroes. One of their main failures was not that it wasn't the in "DCAU" but that the artistic quality dropped several notches - at least to me. It looked cheap. It looked bad. The Batman show seemed to get better later on, but it was often hard for me to watch and enjoy. The LoSH... I turned off a couple of eps in the middle of watching.

I recently watched the Batman: Gotham Knight DVD and some of the artwork was positively stunning. If WBA ever decides to make a full length feature film with the quality of the animation used in BGK - along with a good story and VA - I think they will be stunned at the results at the box-office. And even if they never do this, if they were to just realize that trying to make a better product will make them more money, I would be happier. And more likely to buy their products.

To sum it up, I feel that the American companies still look at animation as being for children and they fail to realize that as they grow up to be adults, they still want a well told, even better animated product than they got when they were kids. And after almost 16? years of the DCAU, they should do it at least as well, if not try to do it better.

Cheap-looking? I'm sorry, but The Batman was anything but that. The designs may not have been everyone's cup of tea, but they were more detailed, more creative (unlike Bruce Timm's "let's copy the comic looks and paste them on to my over-used stock bodies" approach), and more well-animated than anything in the DCAU, which practically invented the use of simple designs for animation & budget reasons.

Honestly, I love the DCAU. The acting and scripts were absolutely brilliant, but the artwork was nothing worthy of praise.

[Wonderwall]

Cheap-looking? I'm sorry, but The Batman was anything but that. The designs may not have been everyone's cup of tea, but they were more detailed, more creative (unlike Bruce Timm's "let's copy the comic looks and paste them on to my over-used stock bodies" approach), and more well-animated than anything in the DCAU, which practically invented the use of simple designs for animation & budget reasons.

Honestly, I love the DCAU. The acting and scripts were absolutely brilliant, but the artwork was nothing worthy of praise.

I don't see how its not, it was pretty damn stylish at the time it was created. Back then it was over detailed models like in X Men and GI Joe. I agree that the Batman's artwork was really creative, not sure about how much more detailed they were, because if they were than they wouldn't have animated as nice. So I think that whole shot at Bruce's stuff is pretty ignorant.

[Bird Boy]

Lets stay on topic here, guys. If you want to start a debate over designs in the DCAU, then create another thread.

-BB

[Spider-Man]

While the designs for Superman Doomsday wasn't anything really different than what we seen I wasn't let down. The Batman and Legion of Super Heroes were the current cartoons at the time and they had to produce a style that was different so Timm altered his designs a little. I always associated his designs with more mature cartoons anyway. I hope this will keep the discussion on-topic. I still think that this film is more of a guilty pleasure than anything. It's a dark Superman tales that's fun but doesn't take itself too seriously. It's so over the top that it is hard not to have fun with it.

[Wolf Boy2]

I was dissapointed with the Timm designs. I would've liked something more comic-like (similar to what was done with Gotham Knight). Imagine the Doomsday fight with the John Byrne Superman design and animation like the Gotham Knight "Deadshot" segment. Now that would've kicked ass.

[Wonderwall]

I was dissapointed with the Timm designs. I would've liked something more comic-like (similar to what was done with Gotham Knight). Imagine the Doomsday fight with the John Byrne Superman design and animation like the Gotham Knight "Deadshot" segment. Now that would've kicked ass.

John Byrne designs would never translate into animation.

[Wolf Boy2]

John Byrne designs would never translate into animation.
Prior to Gotham Knight, I wouldn't have thought the "Deadshot" segment designs could translate. Though, honestly, I don't buy the "it's too difficult to animate" argument in the digital age. Now that cells aren't being traced and painted by hands, they should be able to put some more effort into detail and shadows. Thicker lines, black shading and more realistic proportions would've gone a long way, even if it wasn't literal John Byrne designs. At least on the close-ups and faces.

If Warner is going to put out DTVs, they should put more budget and attention into making them "wow" the audience. What was done with Gotham Knight could be done with a more comic-based design style and it would be jaw-dropping BEAUTIFUL.

IMO, they already achieved that with "Deadshot." Now they just need to do an entire movie in that style.

[R-Taco]

Gotham Knight had a lot more money to throw around. Simple as that.

[Crimefighter]

Okay watched it today...I think they should had stayed closer to the comic storyline. Didn't make sense that he hopped out of the grave like he did...and we sure didn't get what followed in the comic, the four supermans. Plus the "evil" superman was the cyborg.

[Silverstar]

Okay watched it today...I think they should had stayed closer to the comic storyline. Didn't make sense that he hopped out of the grave like he did...and we sure didn't get what followed in the comic, the four supermans. Plus the "evil" superman was the cyborg.

Using The Cyborg, The Eradicator and Superboy with their proper origins and back stories would've been too confusing for non-comic readers to follow and it would've made the movie too long, not to mention that including all of them would've been kind of irrelevant to the story they were trying to tell. One evil Superman clone created by Luthor was something everyone could understand.

[Master Moron]

Using The Cyborg, The Eradicator and Superboy with their proper origins and back stories would've been too confusing for non-comic readers to follow and it would've made the movie too long, not to mention that including all of them would've been kind of irrelevant to the story they were trying to tell.

No, it wouldn't. The video game wasn't confusing and it could be beaten in about an hour.

[Rick Jones]

but it was a video game with no character moments or anything of the sort, just a beat em up with very minor cut scenes (if they even qualified as cut scenes)