is hand drawn really dead on television

[warnerbroman]

cuz flash animation really annoys me

correction CRAPPY flash animation really annoy me


also is anime still hand drawn?

[Joe]

No, just less common

Anime is still hand drawn, it just uses a lot more digital coloring

[Lavenderpaw]

If you were to ask my honest opinion (but you're asking the general TZ public,so...) I'd say it isn't dead.But a dying breed.There is hope for Disney as the esteemed Lasseter is making plans for a traditional animation revival with the hopeful-hit which will be The Frog Princess in 2009 and then he choose Phineas and Ferb over a Chicken Little series,so,yeah.Hand drawn isn't done quite yet.

As for the other currently popular animation format,with the exception of FHFIF and a few others,Flash is trash.To me anyway,others might not think so.But it's just a cheep way of making money and unless it has good storylines,pfft...:shrug:

[John Dorian]

Well, Chowder has hand drawn animation.

[SpaceCowboy]

It would be nice to have animation on TV that reached the visual quality of the Warner/Spielberg stuff of the '90s.

[R-Taco]

Last I checked, most TV animation is still of the hand-drawn variety.

[Rook]

Well, Chowder has hand drawn animation.

Optimus Primal: Die-Cast construction, It's a lost art.

[DrTooth]

cuz flash animation really annoys me

correction CRAPPY flash animation really annoy me


also is anime still hand drawn?

Flash wasn't so bad when it first came out, with stuff like Mucha Lucha... but I tuned in to Cyberchase and was horrified that Nelvana switched the series to Flash. The character movements were stiff and looked dead. I just hated what they did, since I liked the hand drawn animation they had before. Now it has the same crappy animation Jacob Two Two has.

I really miss hand drawn myself. Leave Flash to the internet.

[MonkeyFunk]

Flash can do a pretty damn good job of emulating hand-drawn stuff. Ever see BB3B (http://www.entertainmentrights.com/uploads/image_bank/bb3b_hl.jpg)? It wasn't particularly well-written, but man, it looked good. I'd never have known it was Flash if I hadn't read a behind-the-scenes article in a magazine.

[John Dorian]

Flash wasn't so bad when it first came out, with stuff like Mucha Lucha... but I tuned in to Cyberchase and was horrified that Nelvana switched the series to Flash. The character movements were stiff and looked dead. I just hated what they did, since I liked the hand drawn animation they had before. Now it has the same crappy animation Jacob Two Two has.

I really miss hand drawn myself. Leave Flash to the internet.


Nelvana doesn't even produce Cyberchase anymore.

[kaseykockroach]

Who does'nt miss hand-drawn animation? Flash and CGI are, for the most part,ugly (particulary the former).
The problem with the business is simple. Everyone has always been imitating each other's work. When people produce junk that everybody loves (animated sitcoms,flash,anime) that results with all of the lesser-known companies trying to copy them, to attempt to achieve similiar success. Junk results in imitations of junk. :D
It is a shame. :sad:

[DrTooth]

Flash can do a pretty damn good job of emulating hand-drawn stuff. Ever see BB3B (http://www.entertainmentrights.com/uploads/image_bank/bb3b_hl.jpg)? It wasn't particularly well-written, but man, it looked good. I'd never have known it was Flash if I hadn't read a behind-the-scenes article in a magazine.

unfortunatley most of the cases I've seen, the animation looks horrendously stiff, and like... best exapmle I can come up with are Asian style (I think Indian, or Indonesian) shadow puppets. I don't want to sound like a hypocrite, though. When I animated stuff in flash, it basically was nothing but that short cut. But it works better online than it does on TV. And some Flash based animations are better than others.

[Dr.Pepper]

Well, Chowder has hand drawn animation.
Beat me to it

[DarthGonzo]

Beat me to it

And Spongebob is just as popular as ever. And we're getting new Oddparents episodes.

So no, on TV hand-drawn stuff is certainly not dead.

[MonkeyFunk]

unfortunatley most of the cases I've seen, the animation looks horrendously stiff, and like... best exapmle I can come up with are Asian style (I think Indian, or Indonesian) shadow puppets.

Yeah, the Homestar look. Not denying that that stuff exists (and almost certainly comprises the majority of Flash animation), just pointing out that, in theory, Flash can emulate TV-level hand drawn animation more or less at its best (which, let's face it, isn't that high a standard)

[Racattack!Force]

No Hand-drawn animation ain't dead. I think it's starting to make a comeback. :D

[DrTooth]

Yeah, the Homestar look. Not denying that that stuff exists (and almost certainly comprises the majority of Flash animation), just pointing out that, in theory, Flash can emulate TV-level hand drawn animation more or less at its best (which, let's face it, isn't that high a standard)

Actually, I don't mind Homestar's look at all. I mean, they do a cartoon about once a week, so of course they have to cut a corner or so. Plus, I think that Homestar looks much better than what I'm talking about. That Cyberchase episode I saw made me want to cry. it just... just doesn't work on television that well.

Though there are places like Soup 2 Nuts that does an excellent job with Flash for TV. I love how Word Girl looks. it really fits that way. But with Jacob Two Two, I just don't like how it looks.

[Master Toon]

To be honest I thought that people hated hand drawn stuff. I remember one group of people on another site were talking about how anime is never hand drawn anymore and they hate hand drawn stuff, but I never really joined that discussion.

[DrTooth]

To be honest I thought that people hated hand drawn stuff. I remember one group of people on another site were talking about how anime is never hand drawn anymore and they hate hand drawn stuff, but I never really joined that discussion.

How can anyone hate hand drawn stuff? There's a lot more effort and artistry in hand drawn work. As I stated earlier, Flash utilizes a lot of short cuts, which are better left to computer distribution. Homestar makes a cartoon nearly every week, and it only has about 2 people working on it. And that's some of the fullest limited Flash I've seen. Much much better than say, Jacob Two Two.

Still, you can hand draw something into digital. What I Really miss is cel animation, especially in anime. Yes, it looks rubbery... but I love that look.

[Tharchmist]

Ed, Edd n' Eddy is still hand drawn. They use the "wobble" effect to reflect back to the cartoons in the 1930's.

[warnerbroman]

the best flash cartoon I have see was juniper lee why

I just learned it was made in flash 2 weeks ago

[Racattack!Force]

Ed, Edd n' Eddy is still hand drawn. They use the "wobble" effect to reflect back to the cartoons in the 1930's.
But cel animation is very much gone. It's all ditigally painted now.

[R-Taco]

the best flash cartoon I have see was juniper lee why

I just learned it was made in flash 2 weeks ago

But it wasn't...

[Racattack!Force]

No, the best Flash cartoon is Foster's, since I never learned it was Flash until a month or two ago. It seriously doesn't lok like Flash.

[The Huntsman]

I think this discussion is overrated. Sure, cartoons are a visual medium and the animation styles have some influence in the overall quality, but I believe that substance is far more important. I would be just as willing to watch a good animated program that is animated via etch-a-sketch as I would a good animated program that is animated via hand-drawn techniques. You can’t judge a book by its cover and you can’t judge a cartoon by its visual appearance. I have seen several people express that they wouldn’t watch a cartoon merely because it was animated in flash… With all due respect, I don’t believe those people are true animation fans. Shouldn’t we celebrate all forms of animation? After all, those forms are merely tools of the trade; the means in which ideas can come to life. What truly matters is if the people using those tools have the right ideas.

A good cartoon will be good regardless of how it’s animated. Unfortunately, humanity is far too shallow to agree with me.

[Racattack!Force]

I think this discussion is overrated. Sure, cartoons are a visual medium and the animation styles have some influence in the overall quality, but I believe that substance is far more important. I would be just as willing to watch a good animated program that is animated via etch-a-sketch as I would a good animated program that is animated via hand-drawn techniques. You can’t judge a book by its cover and you can’t judge a cartoon by its visual appearance. I have seen several people express that they wouldn’t watch a cartoon merely because it was animated in flash… With all due respect, I don’t believe those people are true animation fans. Shouldn’t we celebrate all forms of animation? After all, those forms are merely tools of the trade; the means in which ideas can come to life. What truly matters is if the people using those tools have the right ideas.

A good cartoon will be good regardless of how it’s animated. Unfortunately, humanity is far too shallow to agree with me.
I agree with you. If it's an awesome show that is well written, has style, and visual flair, I will watch it. If the animation sucks...it sucks. Regradless of whether it's Flash or hand-drawn.

[livingfruitvirus]

All Fox cartoons are hand-drawn.

Flash is cheap to use. Thanks to the low-budget handling of Flash, several cartoons have been made that otherwise would not have been made, and it's created a lot of jobs for American animators that normally get outsourced. With the right tools, Flash can look just as good as traditional hand-drawn animation. Superjail is made in Flash, and from an animation (not design) perspective, it looks great.

[Joe]

Wait...So hand drawn cartoons no longer use cels? I thought it was just cel paint that was replaced with digital? Or is it because most backgrounds are now digitally created?

[Racattack!Force]

Wait...So hand drawn cartoons no longer use cels? I thought it was just cel paint that was replaced with digital? Or is it because most backgrounds are now digitally created?
No, you're right. The colors are the only things that are done with digital on hand-drawn cartoons.

[Dr.Pepper]

But cel animation is very much gone. It's all ditigally painted now.
Which is a crying shame

[Racattack!Force]

Which is a crying shame
Yeah, but the truth is that no studio wants to paint cels any more.

[warnerbroman]

Yeah, but the truth is that no studio wants to paint cels any more.
THEY MAKE MISTAKES THOUGH....

[The Irishman]

Ed, Edd n' Eddy is still hand drawn. They use the "wobble" effect to reflect back to the cartoons in the 1930's.
But cel animation is very much gone. It's all ditigally painted now.
Yeah, but the truth is that no studio wants to paint cels any more.

A salute is in order to Ed, Edd & Eddy, the last show to be traditionally painted.

The quality of hand-drawn animation is very hard to beat. The effort put in by the animators is visible in every scene. Flash is hit and miss. If enough effort is put in, the result can be great and visibly distinctive (e.g. Foster's). Otherwise, cut corners become very obvious.

What I've noticed (and I'm not sure what exactly is the reason behind it), is that Flash characters seem to have an unnecessary amount of movement. They never seem to be able to raise their hand without the rest of their bodies moving too. After a while, this gets annoying.

Personally, I'm going to take the line of Hayao Miyazaki, he uses CGI if, and only if, it contributes to the hand drawn look and feel of a film. In other words, you should not be able to tell the difference, and until I got The Art of Spirited Away, I couldn't. This is the way it should be, but due to budgets, we're unlikely to see it on TV.

As long as there are animators out there who want to work in hand drawn animation, there will continue to be shows produced.

[Dudley]

Which is a crying shame

How is painting digitally, a much easier process, a bad thing?

[Blackstar]

Well, not everybody has Disney money to throw around. Some studios use Flash animation because it's cheaper than full animation.

[Jave]

You know, sometimes I look back at certain decades and wish Flash would've existed back then. Seriously, when you think about it, the main reason why the 60s and 70s had so many crappy stuff is because the limits in budgets restrained the (talented) animators who worked on those cartoons. The use of Flash, which is cheap regardless of the numbers of drawings, would've have certainly helped some of these cartoons (like say, the Larriva Roadrunners) look a little bit better. It's the problem of having no options other than hand-draw, combine that with a limited budget and you get a crappy-looking cartoon.

In fact, I'll say that if Flash would've existed back then, the directors would've definitely used it, or at least tried it out. (Chuck Jones did make cartoons in flash, after all)

[SirLemming]

I think digital inking & coloring really is the way to go. Hand-painted cels are more difficult to use, more difficult to edit, more expensive, and they fade over time. I still like the look, but digital has its advantages too. It just seems to produce much better quality overall, when it's done right. I mean, I also like the look of claymation and paper cut-out animation, but that doesn't mean I think it should be used for everything. Some stuff merits an unconventional approach and some stuff doesn't. Most stuff doesn't.

Now, in the early days of digital coloring on TV shows it was pretty annoying. They made everything way too bright and stuff often looked stiff, pixellated, and had too high a framerate. But they've learned from their mistakes now, I think. And keep in mind that Disney used digital coloring for most of the 2D movies they made in the past 10 years (at least), and that looked great.

As for certain uses of Flash and other stuff that actually supplants the hand-drawn process in some way, that's a different issue I won't get into now.

[80's guy]

Really tired of these thread.

There are some good Flash animation shows on TV. I don't believe that it the end of hand drawn animation.

[DrTooth]

I think this discussion is overrated. Sure, cartoons are a visual medium and the animation styles have some influence in the overall quality, but I believe that substance is far more important. I would be just as willing to watch a good animated program that is animated via etch-a-sketch as I would a good animated program that is animated via hand-drawn techniques. You can’t judge a book by its cover and you can’t judge a cartoon by its visual appearance. I have seen several people express that they wouldn’t watch a cartoon merely because it was animated in flash… With all due respect, I don’t believe those people are true animation fans. Shouldn’t we celebrate all forms of animation? After all, those forms are merely tools of the trade; the means in which ideas can come to life. What truly matters is if the people using those tools have the right ideas.

A good cartoon will be good regardless of how it’s animated. Unfortunately, humanity is far too shallow to agree with me.

I agree with that. There's room for all types of animation. That is if they all share. I have no problem with something like Fosters that uses Flash... but I have problems with a show that utilizes movement paths and that sort of thing, causing it to look like, as I said those Asian hinged shadow puppets, or something hinged... Like, you know those Haloween decorations that are cut outs of skeletons, and they're held together with brads so they can be posed? It's fine for the internet, and a small group of animators (heaven knows, I've used it more than hand drawing there). But When you use it on TV, it can look pretty ugly and obvious. In the case of Cyberchase, they distorted the character movements to a degree that made it look unwatchable.

That said, you can hand draw something in flash, and make it look like a traditional style cartoon. But the point is to draw everything, and not rely heavily on motion tweening.

[John Dorian]

Like I said, DrTooth, Nelvana isn't animating Cyberchase anymore.

[Racattack!Force]

How is painting digitally, a much easier process, a bad thing?
Yeah, digital painting is pretty good, and in my opinion, brings out the visual style. And it would be hard to do some things without it. Just look at Chowder. Drawing those patterns over an over agian would be boring and hard.

[Hordesman]

With all the cutbacks inherent in producing animation for television, digital coloring is a vast improvement.

Hanna-Barbera produced shows where skin tones on a character varied because the cels were not lit the right way.

Cel errors abound because at a certain point, the show's too far along to correct any that might be caught. Digital color is much more adaptable.

Nothing I grew up with as a kid looked as good as Avatar or Care Bears' current show. Not even Gargoyles. Do I wish I could get more recent cels to add to my collection (80s TMNT, Gargoyles, CCSakura, Pokemon season 1)? Sure but I'm more keen on shows that use the technology available to look as good as possible despite the production limits in tv.

[Tharchmist]

But cel animation is very much gone. It's all ditigally painted now.

Still, the Eds still rock! :anime:

[Racattack!Force]

Still, the Eds still rock! :anime:
True dat! :D The ditigal works to tell the truth.

[HEATXZ]

Hand draw is the best,Flash should stay on the internet

[Racattack!Force]

Hand draw is the best,Flash should stay on the internet
Flash does have the potential to be good. And if you want all Flash cartoon banned to the net, we would lose a few good ones that air on TV.

[Dudley]

Flash does have the potential to be good. And if you want all Flash cartoon banned to the net, we would lose a few good ones that air on TV.

Flash cartoons shouldn't be banned off TV. Just Flash animation.
It's still possible to make a series using different animation. I think the reason they use Flash is so they won't have to outsource it to overseas.

[The Irishman]

I think the reason they use Flash is so they won't have to outsource it to overseas.

Ah, but they do that anyway. Boulder Media does a lot of the animation production for shows like Foster's & El Tigre and they're based in Ireland.

Although you are right about Flash having lower overall costs, this does not preclude studios from outsourcing when they can.