John Kricfalusi's thoughts on Japanese Anime

[Movie06]

Does John Kricfalusi have any thoughts on Japanese Anime by any chance? I mean does he he like it, does it hate it? And if he did say anything, what does he think of the popularity and influence of Anime on the U.S. especially in American Animation?

[R-Taco]

Can anyone really form a solid opinion on anything that broad?

[Movie06]

Can anyone really form a solid opinion on anything that broad?

I'm just curious that's all. I mean the guy really has specicifc opinions on just about anything Animation-related.

[Speedy Boris]

Here's a post he made about color in anime: http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/2006/10/color-theory-steal-from-anime-if-you.html

I was pleasantly surprised, to say the least.

[Movie06]

Here's a post he made about color in anime: http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/2006/10/color-theory-steal-from-anime-if-you.html

I was pleasantly surprised, to say the least.

So, he has a grudge against Anime soley because Japanese animators have better coloring?

EDIT: Oh no wait, I misread that blog, he likes Anime. Cool.

[Dee]

By this point, I take anything he says with a grain of salt. Every time I read his blogging, Im like "wha??"

[Joe]

So, he has a grudge against Anime soley because Japanese animators have better coloring?

EDIT: Oh no wait, I misread that blog, he likes Anime. Cool.

Reading some of the comments, he apparently likes the use of coloring and special effects, but finds the animation too "cold" and mechanical.

[Movie06]

Reading some of the comments, he apparently likes the use of coloring and special effects, but finds the animation too "cold" and mechanical.

What? What gave him that idea, what Anime has he seen so far?

[Marinite]

Here's a post he made about color in anime: http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/2006/10/color-theory-steal-from-anime-if-you.html

I was pleasantly surprised, to say the least. Can he really call television a conservative-dominated area when pretty much every political show on TV bashes conservatives?

But this is John K were talking about, after all, so I guess over-analyzing his posts isn't worth it. He hates everything, except his own work.

[Movie06]

But this is John K were talking about, after all, so I guess over-analyzing his posts isn't worth it. He hates everything, except his own work.

He hates everything except his own work? Then he's an arrogant moron in my book.

[Super Leviathan]

... and of course Bob Clampett, the king of the universe.

Frankly, I don't see much point in this. My love of anime is secure enough that I don't need John's approval to justify my further interest in it.

[Movie06]

... and of course Bob Clampett, the king of the universe.

Frankly, I don't see much point in this. My love of anime is secure enough that I don't need John's approval to justify my further interest in it.

I was only curious that's all.

[HG Revolution]

Can he really call television a conservative-dominated area when pretty much every political show on TV bashes conservatives?

His logic is that most "liberals" are really quite conservative in adhering to one specific dogma. It just happens to be a dogma different from the one the self-declared "conservatives" follow.

[MonkeyFunk]

He also made a post about how he hates anime mouths. Yes, mouths.

He hates everything except his own work? Then he's an arrogant moron in my book.

To be fair, that's not entirely the case. Aside from Bob Clampett and anime colouring, he's also spoken positively about the Fleischers, Tartakovsky, the Gorillaz videos, the character animation of Jane in Tarzan amongst other things. He's also been critical of his own stuff.

[Blue Priestess]

He hates everything except his own work? Then he's an arrogant moron in my book.

I'm just curious - have you read a lot of John K's op-ed stuff? Because his arrogance (for lack of a better term) is pretty well known in animation circles. It's not even worth asking what he thinks of "x series/genre" anymore because unless he or Bob Clampett did it, he'll automatically dismiss it as crap.

(In his world, "cold and mechanical" probably means "people don't look like they're going in their pants", which is his favorite facial expression by far.)

[DrTooth]

Can he really call television a conservative-dominated area when pretty much every political show on TV bashes conservatives?


I'm probably an idiot, but I always though John K WAS conservative. George Liquor comics and animations really railed on Democrats. Wasn't there an avatar on the Spumco site that said "Don't call me a &^%$ Deomcrat?" or something like it?

anyway...

I always thought he'd have a soft spot in Japan, since Spumco was very popular there for some time. I remember seeing a Jimmy the Idiot boy Pizza commercial online years ago. Plus, they made that video game that was only released in Japan.

I always wondered what he thought about Shaman King parodying Ren and Stimpy, and getting away with far more than he ever could (the Stimpy Character having a huge sack, if you know what I mean, and smoking a blunt or pot comtinuously).

[MonkeyFunk]

I'm probably an idiot, but I always though John K WAS conservative. George Liquor comics and animations really railed on Democrats.

I'm not too up on John K's stuff outside of R&S, but wasn't George himself basically a caricatured conservative yank? I guess any democrat-bashing would just even things out a little.

[Hordesman]

Advertisers and stockholders tend to be conservative on all fronts. That's probably what John K's talking about. Courting controversy is still something they shy away from. Which is where you get balancing acts like Disney, who definitely lean "left" but ultimately both Gay Days and conservative Nights of Joys get held in their theme parks. And if they forbid either event on their property, the subsequent loss of biz wouldn't be worth it. Actually, the stockholders could even sue.

[Movie06]

He also made a post about how he hates anime mouths. Yes, mouths.

He hates Anime mouths? Why is that?

To be fair, that's not entirely the case. Aside from Bob Clampett and anime colouring, he's also spoken positively about the Fleischers, Tartakovsky, the Gorillaz videos, the character animation of Jane in Tarzan amongst other things. He's also been critical of his own stuff.

Well, you got me there. But I have been reading the rest of his blogs so maybe he's not an arrogant moron.

And really, Spumco was popular in Japan? Cool.

[Racattack!Force]

He hates Anime mouths? Why is that?

I don't completely like them either. I'm sure he hates them because they don't really match what the character is actually saying. It's just completely random. :shrug:

[DarthGonzo]

He hates Anime mouths? Why is that?

Probably cause all the anime mouths he's seen don't move the way he expects cartoon mouths to move. Most of them just go with the up and down motions. Take a look at the mouths in John K's cartoons and it's easy to understand his POV.

[Movie06]

Ok, I can see why he hates them. But I have no problem with Anime mouths to be honest.

[Light Lucario]

I don't completely like them either. I'm sure he hates them because they don't really match what the character is actually saying. It's just completely random. :shrug:

I wouldn't say that the mouth movements are completely random. That's just the art style of Japanese animation. It is different than what American animation does since the mouth movements do match with what the characters are saying, but I wouldn't think that this difference would really lead to a distaste for anime in general.

[Racattack!Force]

I wouldn't say that the mouth movements are completely random. That's just the art style of Japanese animation. It is different than what American animation does since the mouth movements do match with what the characters are saying, but I wouldn't think that this difference would really lead to a distaste for anime in general.
He doesn't hate all anime. He likes the color and special effects, but hates the mouths. But...:sweat:

[DarthGonzo]

I wouldn't say that the mouth movements are completely random. That's just the art style of Japanese animation. It is different than what American animation does since the mouth movements do match with what the characters are saying, but I wouldn't think that this difference would really lead to a distaste for anime in general.

No, but you know John K. Like he really needs an excuse to hate something?

But I do agree with the mouths. I mean, it's not something that should make one hate anime but nothing beats a good, well detailed, expressive mouth on an American cartoon. Gotta love stuff like the mouths on the Carbunkle-animated Ren and Stimpys, Ed, Edd and Eddy and Spongebob.

[Henk55]

To be fair, that's not entirely the case. Aside from Bob Clampett and anime colouring, he's also spoken positively about the Fleischers, Tartakovsky, the Gorillaz videos, the character animation of Jane in Tarzan amongst other things. He's also been critical of his own stuff.

And he actually doesn't hate CGI as CGI at all, unlike 90% of Toonzone.

"Well, I thought Toy Story was pretty good. And not for the obvious reasons–you know, that it’s the first computer-animated movie. I could really give two **** about whether it’s cell animation or computer animation or what it is. Does it work as a story, as characters? Well, the story was a little predictable and kind of corny, but it was constructed a thousand times better than any modern Disney movie. And it didn’t have any of the Disney formula stuff–they didn’t stop and break into hateful songs every two seconds, there were no sidekicks. Unbelievable!

"In Toy Story, they tried a whole bunch of new expressions, custom-tailored to fit how the characters were feeling in the particular instant in that particular story. That’s a revolution far beyond the computer animation–characters that act visually. I’m not talkin’ about the sound, I’m not talkin’ about Tom Hanks. I’m talkin’ about the animator, how he made the character’s face bend, how he posed the character. It was new. It wasn’t really a dramatic testing of the water, but it was enough of a leap away from the Disney stuff that that’s a real revolution. If they keep going in that direction, it’ll really be something."

[Master Moron]

One thing that I never really liked about anime mouths was the way their jaws don't move when they open their mouths. There are exceptions to this, though. For instance, in Ghost in the Shell the characters' jaws move when they open their mouths.

[Racattack!Force]

One thing that I never really liked about anime mouths was the way their jaws don't move when they open their mouths. There are exceptions to this, though. For instance, in Ghost in the Shell the characters' jaws move when they open their mouths.
I also hate when their mouths are nothing but huge pink tougues. :shrug:

[DrTooth]

No, but you know John K. Like he really needs an excuse to hate something?

But I do agree with the mouths. I mean, it's not something that should make one hate anime but nothing beats a good, well detailed, expressive mouth on an American cartoon. Gotta love stuff like the mouths on the Carbunkle-animated Ren and Stimpys, Ed, Edd and Eddy and Spongebob.

Mouths... Agreed 100%. That's what I love about something like One Piece... look at the mouths on those characters. Big, wide, fangy. Not that small triangular stuff.

[Racattack!Force]

Mouths... Agreed 100%. That's what I love about something like One Piece... look at the mouths on those characters. Big, wide, fangy. Not that small triangular stuff.
One Piece - 1
A few other anime - 0

The small triangular stuff bores me. They don't focus much on character animation, and route that money into special effects.:shrug:

[CartoonSage]

I can't stand how critical he is about modern animation, though I agree with him on certain topics 100% and this is one of them. I think he's right on the money when he says that Japanese animators are conservative when it comes to evolving their style to something new. There are exceptions, but alot of anime are produced EXACTLY the same way. Same timing, same backgrounds, PRACTICALLY the same character designs (I know there are exceptions), same coloring, same shading, same movements, same camera direction, SAME FLAPPING MOUTHS.... there really isn't a whole lot of distinction between different shows. I think that conservative nature is what developed their "style" that we all know and love today.

[Movie06]

Mouths... Agreed 100%. That's what I love about something like One Piece... look at the mouths on those characters. Big, wide, fangy. Not that small triangular stuff.

Doesn't Naruto have that too?

[firecrouch]

Doesn't Naruto have that too?

From what I've seen of "Naruto", I doubt it.

[Racattack!Force]

Doesn't Naruto have that too?
They don't have that small triangular stuff...at least, I don't think so. :confused:

[CaptainHero]

The eye designs for Anime always struck me as extremely generic. You either get the giant huge Powerpuff Girl style or..that's pretty much it

[Light Lucario]

He doesn't hate all anime. He likes the color and special effects, but hates the mouths. But...:sweat:

I know that's what he said. I was responding to your comment that the mouth movement is random, which is obviously isn't. It really is just their art style for their animation. As others have mentioned, there are exceptions to the designs of the mouth, such as One Piece. I also think that some more recent anime series have changed the way the animate the mouth flaps as well. But I honestly couldn't care less about the mouth flaps. I've been under the impression that the characters and the story itself were more important to judge for an anime series than just the mouth flaps.

No, but you know John K. Like he really needs an excuse to hate something?

But I do agree with the mouths. I mean, it's not something that should make one hate anime but nothing beats a good, well detailed, expressive mouth on an American cartoon. Gotta love stuff like the mouths on the Carbunkle-animated Ren and Stimpys, Ed, Edd and Eddy and Spongebob.

That's true about John K. Apparently he has done this kind of thing before where he hates something for a small reason. I haven't read much of anything from his blog before.

While I do agree with you on how the mouth movements on some American cartoon shows, such as the ones that you mentioned, have great detailed expressions of a character's mouth, I'm not sure if comparing that to anime is completely fair. I don't what to sound harsh or anything, but it is pretty obvious that both American and Japanese animation have different art styles. In all honesty, I don't prefer Japanese animation over American style and vice versa. For me, it's all a matter of if I'm interested in the storyline, the characters appeal to me, etc. The artwork, while still important, doesn't really become a large factor to me.

[Marinite]

But I honestly couldn't care less about the mouth flaps. I've been under the impression that the characters and the story itself were more important to judge for an anime series than just the mouth flaps. I'd argue mouth flap animation is important for comedy shows, which can rely on offbeat/spastic animation. Or any scene that requires focus on their mouth in the way they pronounce words, or anything similar.

[Jave]

Mouth movements have certainly improved in Japanese animation recently anyway. It's obviously not as detailed as most American animation, but they clearly don't look random and too blatantly flappy anymore. Most anime uses three or four mouth positions for for each character in a conversation scene and cycle them appropriately. Not the most best-looking results, but certainly a lot more convincing that what it once was.

[Hiya Animation]

Personally, I could care less what John K thinks. He's lost most of his credibility with me :shrug:

Bashing Disney, Pixar, and other big studios when he hasn't even come CLOSE to the level of quality work they've put out (both animation and writing) just makes him come across as very arrogant.

If he actually DOES something worth watching maybe I'll take his opinions a little more seriously.

[Movie06]

Personally, I could care less what John K thinks. He's lost most of his credibility with me.

Actually, that's the one thing I have a problem with John K is that he's so arrogant that he's willing to bash other people's works. And for some reason, he reminds me of various hardcore fans of anything.

[Dudley]

Actually, that's the one thing I have a problem with John K is that he's so arrogant that he's willing to bash other people's works. And for some reason, he reminds me of various hardcore fans of anything.

I hate that about him too. Especially because he started bashing this newbie to the animation field for his art style:

http://tvskyle.deviantart.com/

Yet not over the similarity.

[Movie06]

I hate that about him too. Especially because he started bashing this newbie to the animation field for his art style:

http://tvskyle.deviantart.com/

Yet not over the similarity.

That guy's art is good, very good. Why would John K hate that guy? He doesn't like any animation-stye homages to his work?

[HG Revolution]

That guy's art is good, very good. Why would John K hate that guy? He doesn't like any animation-stye homages to his work?

He liked Cow and Chicken, though.

My guess is that the Pinky, Elmyra, and the Brain picture gave him nightmares and he's taking out his anger illogically.

[Movie06]

My guess is that the Pinky, Elmyra, and the Brain picture gave him nightmares and he's taking out his anger illogically.

Because of that show? If that's the case then it's stupid that he would make a fuss over one show.

[Martianinvader]

Because of that show? If that's the case then it's stupid that he would make a fuss over one show.
It was a joke, silly goose.

If he's actually picking on TV's Kyle now then he's gone off the deep end. He could target you or I next.

[Movie06]

If he's actually picking on TV's Kyle now then he's gone off the deep end. He could target you or I next.

Hmm, well I do have an idea for an animated action show. If he does have any bad criticism about what I came up with, well expect a little joke about his attitude towards other animators.

[Jordo]

As a fan of John K, and an avid reader of his blog, I had to throw my 2 cents in here...

A lot of you are doing the exact thing that you say you hate about John K. You're jumping to all these conclusions about his opinions and ranting about someone you barely know, and getting really defensive and angry!

Stuff like "Because of that show? If that's the case then it's stupid that he would make a fuss over one show." is exactly my point. John K never did that, and throughout the couple pages of this thread I'm seeing him be misquoted and targeted for things he never even said...Some of you have done your "research" but I've been noticing a TON of wild conclusions here from people who never even READ his blog!

"That's true about John K. Apparently he has done this kind of thing before where he hates something for a small reason. I haven't read much of anything from his blog before."


Arrrgh! This is very frustrating. READ his blog, THEN say what John K is like. He doesn't "hate something" for small reasons. He always goes IN DEPTH with his criticisms, offers pictures and theories, evidence, and background knowledge. He has well informed opinions. Which can be VERY hard to find in the blog world. Know what I mean?

Anyway...I don't always agree with John K, but I find his assessment of animation throughout history to be VERY fair and VERY unique. And smart, well informed, and funny.

He is looking at cartoons from a PROFESSIONAL and highly critical (both positive and negative) standpoint. He is probably incapable of watching a cartoon without his brain going in 1000 directions about what could be improved, or what makes it great. He is a very very analytical person. He's not so much a "fan" like all of us here.

He has never bashed an entire show or genre...He points out positives and negatives. Like how he likes the color in anime, but hates the mouths. Hell, I agree with him. I'm not big into anime because every character looks the same and I don't see much variety of expression there.

He (deservedly) loves Bob Clampett...He has also pointed out weak spots in the old Looney Tunes, though there are few.

And yes, he criticizes his OWN work too. He's even left his name off of some of his cartoons that he wasn't proud of. However he is proud of his inconsistency, because that's what makes art human. That's probably his problem with anime, and with most modern cartoons in general: No growth, no evolution, no humanity. A formula is found and stuck to, and that's the end.



-Jordan

[Joe]

I've never been a huge fan of John Kricfalusi's work, and developed a slight skeptism toward his opinion, but I've tried to keep an open mind to what he has to say a bit more.

A lot of my earlier preconceptions had to do with watching his R&S Adult Party cartoon and cursing his name for allowing such an abomination to exist. But as the experience started to fade more into my memory, I've tried to take in his opinion with a bit more objectivity.

[Hiya Animation]

Arrrgh! This is very frustrating. READ his blog, THEN say what John K is like.

I read his blog... a lot, and while sometimes he posts some good stuff on there, a lot of the stuff he says comes across as over-harsh and arrogant.

He is looking at cartoons from a PROFESSIONAL and highly critical (both positive and negative) standpoint. He is probably incapable of watching a cartoon without his brain going in 1000 directions about what could be improved, or what makes it great. He is a very very analytical person. He's not so much a "fan" like all of us here.

And yet, he has not made anything even close to the artistic quality of most of the stuff he's criticized (such as classic Disney, modern Disney, Pixar, Brad Bird's stuff, Cat's Don't Dance, etc).

Once he actually does something close to anything Pixar does, maybe I'll respect his opinion a little more.

[Jordo]

And yet, he has not made anything even close to the artistic quality of most of the stuff he's criticized (such as classic Disney, modern Disney, Pixar, Brad Bird's stuff, Cat's Don't Dance, etc).

Once he actually does something close to anything Pixar does, maybe I'll respect his opinion a little more.


We'll have to agree to disagree. "Stimpy's Invention", "Sven Hoek", "Firedogs 2", certain episodes of the Ripping Friends, and many others give me a lot more satisfaction and keep me in awe more than anything I've seen from modern Disney or Pixar, which I often have mixed reactions to.

AND he's done it all with like a millionth of the BUDGET/staff of Disney or Pixar.

And he has both praised and criticized classic Disney. John K is observational enough to see there are both good AND bad qualities in things. I've never read anything he's said about Disney that I disagree with...And again I stress the words "well researched"...He knows a lot about Walt Disney's philosophies and how he extended them onto his animation department, for better or worse.

I remember when he saw Ratattouille, all he basically criticized was it's dialogue and story structure. He wasn't "harsh" or "slamming" anything, it was pretty fair, I thought. People in this thread are acting like he goes on these insane rants...His blogs are very focused, well written and he OFTEN stresses that this is just his loud mouth opinion (he just said this in a post from last week.)


-Jordan

[Ickis]

The eye designs for Anime always struck me as extremely generic. You either get the giant huge Powerpuff Girl style or..that's pretty much it In earlier animes alot of eyes looked more realistic as they were smaller and there were a few common cartoon eyes, just look up Tezuka. Also, I beleive I read that John K said that most newer animes in his opinion are "inbred" which is mostly true but so what, back in the 20's almost everybody wanted to be Disney!

[Hiya Animation]

We'll have to agree to disagree. "Stimpy's Invention", "Sven Hoek", "Firedogs 2", certain episodes of the Ripping Friends, and many others give me a lot more satisfaction and keep me in awe more than anything I've seen from modern Disney or Pixar, which I often have mixed reactions to.

Well, to each his own :D

Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying he's a bad person or a bad animator, and I have respect for him as a very passionate guy who loves animation. Heck, I'd even like to meet him someday (maybe I will if I go to the Ottawa festival this year).
I've liked some of the Ren and Stimpys I've seen (Space Madness is actually a good cartoon in my book) and I also liked the Yogi Bear stuff he put out.
A lot of his Flash stuff is pretty bad (George Liquor, Weekend Pussy Hunt etc) but the Yogi Bear toons were well done.

I just think he comes across as very arrogant on his blog. Maybe he's not like this in real life but still...

And he has both praised and criticized classic Disney. John K is observational enough to see there are both good AND bad qualities in things. I've never read anything he's said about Disney that I disagree with...And again I stress the words "well researched"...He knows a lot about Walt Disney's philosophies and how he extended them onto his animation department, for better or worse.

I'm not saying each Disney film is great or anything but I certainly disagree that the classic Disney films (aka, from Snow White to 101 Dalmations) are "bland".

I also disagree that modern Disney animation is bland as well. I loved Mulan, he hated it for some reason. I loved Hercules... and he's constantly posting pictures of how poorly done it is.

I remember when he saw Ratattouille, all he basically criticized was it's dialogue and story structure.

He criticized Rat before it even came out. He seems to have some kind of grudge against Brad Bird.

[DrTooth]

I'm a big fan of John K, but I really wish he'd put up or shut up. Sure, the entertainment industry doesn't want to give him the time of day, but he could go back to making web cartoons. I want to see him actually do something than critique everything out there. It's kinda hypocritical coming from this poster, but I really want to see him doing instead of critiquing.

He's entitled to his opinion, that is, and I can respect his views. But it seems half the time it's bitter rambling coming from someone who was hurt by the industry one too many times.

[DarthGonzo]

I'm a big fan of John K, but I really wish he'd put up or shut up. Sure, the entertainment industry doesn't want to give him the time of day, but he could go back to making web cartoons. I want to see him actually do something than critique everything out there. It's kinda hypocritical coming from this poster, but I really want to see him doing instead of critiquing.

He's entitled to his opinion, that is, and I can respect his views. But it seems half the time it's bitter rambling coming from someone who was hurt by the industry one too many times.

Exactly. Couldn't have put it better myself.

16+ years later and John is still most noted for a season and a half cartoon show that aired on Nick. Honestly, what has he really done of any substance since then? The Ren and Stimpy Adult Party Cartoon you say? Find me someone who is able to sit through most of that filth. That show crsyalizes everything that's wrong with John K's cartoons. Gay jokes. Genitalia and sex jokes. Manly men. Jiggling breasts on badly drawn women. I get the vague impression that he's trying to carry on Clampett's legacy. That makes it even sadder.

Maybe if he actually still put out interesting work I'd be able to tolerate his arrogant opinions. He's not. So to me he comes off as a creepy, bitter lunatic.

[Movie06]

Exactly. Couldn't have put it better myself.

16+ years later and John is still most noted for a season and a half cartoon show that aired on Nick. Honestly, what has he really done of any substance since then? The Ren and Stimpy Adult Party Cartoon you say? Find me someone who is able to sit through most of that filth. That show crsyalizes everything that's wrong with John K's cartoons. Gay jokes. Genitalia and sex jokes. Manly men. Jiggling breasts on badly drawn women. I get the vague impression that he's trying to carry on Clampett's legacy. That makes it even sadder.

Maybe if he actually still put out interesting work I'd be able to tolerate his arrogant opinions. He's not. So to me he comes off as a creepy, bitter lunatic.

Well said dude. I mean John K just has nothing better to do than criticise others. I mean come on man, make another cartoon already but don't try to carry on some dude's legacy, that's just sad.

[aalong64]

Well said dude. I mean John K just has nothing better to do than criticise others. I mean come on man, make another cartoon already but don't try to carry on some dude's legacy, that's just sad.
To me, the fact that he's trying to carry on Clampett's legacy of making entertaining cartoons isn't sad in itself. The sad part -and I believe this is what DarthGonzo is referring to as well- is that he's largely failing to make them appealing, and always for the same simple reasons.

Granted, there are lots of great things about his work (in particular, his original Ren and Stimpy shows) but I"m not a big fan of most of his stuff. If his creativity and animation talent could be channeled into an interesting project, perhaps a collaboration, with someone else more in control, and him as a sort of 'hired gun', I think the results would be awesome. I doubt that's going to happen though. And I'm sure people will disagree with me.. This is just my opinion, sorry if I offend anyone!

[Movie06]

Granted, there are lots of great things about his work (in particular, his original Ren and Stimpy shows) but I"m not a big fan of most of his stuff. If his creativity and animation talent could be channeled into an interesting project, perhaps a collaboration, with someone else more in control, and him as a sort of 'hired gun', I think the results would be awesome. I doubt that's going to happen though. And I'm sure people will disagree with me.. This is just my opinion, sorry if I offend anyone!

Actually, I'd like to see that happen actually.

[Hiya Animation]

Exactly. Couldn't have put it better myself.

16+ years later and John is still most noted for a season and a half cartoon show that aired on Nick. Honestly, what has he really done of any substance since then? The Ren and Stimpy Adult Party Cartoon you say? Find me someone who is able to sit through most of that filth. That show crsyalizes everything that's wrong with John K's cartoons. Gay jokes. Genitalia and sex jokes. Manly men. Jiggling breasts on badly drawn women. I get the vague impression that he's trying to carry on Clampett's legacy. That makes it even sadder.

Maybe if he actually still put out interesting work I'd be able to tolerate his arrogant opinions. He's not. So to me he comes off as a creepy, bitter lunatic.

Well said :D Very well said!

[Jordo]

16+ years later and John is still most noted for a season and a half cartoon show that aired on Nick. Honestly, what has he really done of any substance since then? The Ren and Stimpy Adult Party Cartoon you say? Find me someone who is able to sit through most of that filth. That show crsyalizes everything that's wrong with John K's cartoons. Gay jokes. Genitalia and sex jokes. Manly men. Jiggling breasts on badly drawn women. I get the vague impression that he's trying to carry on Clampett's legacy. That makes it even sadder.



You think the way John K and Spumco draws women is BAD? Compared to what? They draw the cutest, funniest, sexiest, most unique looking women I've ever seen in cartoons. AND they're animated beautifully.

Personally I love Adult Cartoon and think it's waaaay criminally underrated.

John K isn't "trying to carry on Clampett's legacy" (see how everyone started responding to what you said as if it's the cold hard truth, then criticizing John K for it?)

He's trying to do different things each time he makes a cartoon, and use inspirations from Clampett, and a wiiide variety of cartoons (including Disney, etc, etc) and cartoonists. Clampett is one piece of the puzzle, but it's mostly just JOHN. His personal P.O.V. and the way he sees the world. That's what a real director does.

No one's denying that he's a bitter guy...Personally I read his blog and laugh, not go into a rage about it...I think a lot of his blog is intended to be light hearted (it's about CARTOONS for christ's sake) and merely questioning why most modern animation has gone waaay downhill.

"Put up or shut up" doesn't even apply...What about all of you? You never criticize something that you yourself have not produced? People are allowed to have opinions and post them on blogs, whether or not they actively engage in creating the type of work they're criticizing (which John K DOES.)

Now I'd love to have some more John K cartoons on TV ("put up"), but as he put it, he will pitch a show to a network, they'll laugh their heads off, then say "sorry, not interested." This includes G rated material.


-Jordan

[Dudley]

The reason I don't really care about John K. and his opinions have already been pointed out by other members.

I don't care if he has experience in the industry. I don't care what a one -it-wonder to a series I don't even like with an unappealing art style thinks.

One of the things I like about Kyle Carossa (tvskyle), art style is that it's similar to Kricfalusi's, but better.

[tb4000]

I honestly wish what he would do is just create animated theatrical shorts. Most of which would play before PG-13/R rated flicks. Since he doesn't want anything else to do with tv. That's where his inspiration stems anyways.

[Zorak Masaki]

The thing that gets me about adult party cartoon is that from what i heard, he basically took suggestions from fan letters, ie "make an ep thats all gross jokes!","make a sequel to firedogs" (and he kind of was able to do both with firedogs 2), "make an ep with naked girls!" and so on. That shows a lack of creativity, by letting the fans give ideas for shows (the exception of course, being a visit to anthony which was inspired by an actual fan letter). Think of your favorite cartoon show. Now imagine if they decided to take suggestions from fan letters. While they may have had some good ideas (like the aforementioned visit to anthony), we'd also get horrid eps that would be essentially fanservice. If you're a creator, use your own ideas, not ideas contributed by fanboys/girls.

[Antiyonder]

I've often compared John Kricfalusi to Greg Weisman years ago. Both had a show in the 90s for a kid/family centric company with did pretty well in the writing department, with both of them losing creative control and both shows eventually ending due to low ratings. Both Gargoyles and Ren & Stimpy got a second chance at life this decade. The differences:

1. Both of them have had more creative freedom with their products this time around. Greg however, doesn't use content unless it feels nature. John on the other hand is like "Phooey on the writing, let's up the content and stick it to Nick". The former maintains the creative quality, the latter disregards it and goes sloppy.

2. As mentioned, John for the most part doesn't really put up (The Ripping Friends being his biggest job aside from Adult Party). Greg on the other had did the first season of Max Steel. Wrote episodes of Kim Possible, Buzz Lightyear Of Star Command, The Batman, the second season of W.I.T.C.H. and of course is currently working on The Spectacular Spider-Man. Plus the Gargoyles comic, Bad Guys and is working on a Red Tornado miniseries for DC Comics. Sure Greg has made a few critical statements regarding the flaws of animation, but he is working around those flaws to the best of his ability.

[Marinite]

I've often compared John Kricfalusi to Greg Weisman years ago. Both had a show in the 90s for a kid/family centric company with did pretty well in the writing department, with both of them losing creative control and both shows eventually ending due to low ratings. Both Gargoyles and Ren & Stimpy got a second chance at life this decade. The differences: I disagree. John K, to me, never had a good show. Ren & Stimpy's humor rotated around fart jokes, booger jokes, and other crude toilet humor which may be fine for kids, but most adults wouldn't care for it; I know my parents didn't. He has no right to complain about any other cartoon's writing, let alone be compared to a talented folk like Greg Weisman.

[Speedy Boris]

^ It also had the best art style to come out of television in 30 years. So give it -some- respect even if you don't like the low brow humor.

[HG Revolution]

I disagree. John K, to me, never had a good show. Ren & Stimpy's humor rotated around fart jokes, booger jokes, and other crude toilet humor which may be fine for kids, but most adults wouldn't care for it; I know my parents didn't. He has no right to complain about any other cartoon's writing, let alone be compared to a talented folk like Greg Weisman. Ren and Stimpy also had some strong character driven humor, parodies, and general inspired wackiness, as well as some very good animation.

[Antiyonder]

I disagree. John K, to me, never had a good show. Ren & Stimpy's humor rotated around fart jokes, booger jokes, and other crude toilet humor which may be fine for kids, but most adults wouldn't care for it; I know my parents didn't. He has no right to complain about any other cartoon's writing, let alone be compared to a talented folk like Greg Weisman.

The Adult Party, moreso, but the early episodes did rely on some character moments and writing.

[Marinite]

^ It also had the best art style to come out of television in 30 years. So give it -some- respect even if you don't like the low brow humor. Seriously? I thought the art was pretty ugly.

[Jave]

If anything, Ren & Stimpy deserves credit for having the best monologue ever in the history of animation.

"Oh, how long can trusty Cadet Stimpy hold out?!"

[Zorak Masaki]

I disagree. John K, to me, never had a good show. Ren & Stimpy's humor rotated around fart jokes, booger jokes, and other crude toilet humor which may be fine for kids, but most adults wouldn't care for it; I know my parents didn't. He has no right to complain about any other cartoon's writing, let alone be compared to a talented folk like Greg Weisman.

There were plenty of good eps from the first two seasons that didnt rely on any "toilet humor". Eps like space madness, big house blues (save for one scene of ren washing his mouth out in a toilet), stimpys big break/the big shot, rubber nipple salesman, stimpys invention, a visit to anthony, all great eps that had little to no crude humor.

[DrTooth]

"Put up or shut up" doesn't even apply...What about all of you? You never criticize something that you yourself have not produced? People are allowed to have opinions and post them on blogs, whether or not they actively engage in creating the type of work they're criticizing (which John K DOES.)

Now I'd love to have some more John K cartoons on TV ("put up"), but as he put it, he will pitch a show to a network, they'll laugh their heads off, then say "sorry, not interested." This includes G rated material.


That's why I say I'm a little hypocritic myself. Though in fairness, I can't even afford to get Flash or a Wacom Tablet or even a scanner.

I know the entertainment industry pretty much doesn't want him. And I know that really has to hurt on some level. But He really needs to get back up on the internet toons horse and ride that puppy for all its worth. If a network won't buy his stuff, avoid the networks all together. Or find some indie movie producers and make an animated film or something.

It's not so much I don't like his opinion as I miss him actually doing stuff. No doubt it sucks to be him, and he clearly has millions of ideas buzzin' round his head. The constant failures must have ruined him forever for trying a commercial endevor. But as I said, who says it has to be commercial?

[Darklordavaitor]

Seriously? I thought the art was pretty ugly.
The designs may be hard on the eyes, but the motions put into detail are amazing.

[Jordo]

Woh! I can't imagine how anybody can think Ren and Stimpy's art style is "ugly."

Ren and Stimpy singlehandedly revitalized TV animation in the 90s. It was (one of?) the first TV cartoon that both kids and adults watched, but not because it was TRYING to appeal to kids and adults (the way certain cartoons try too hard to now, by throwing in old references, etc.) It was like that because John K put everything of himself into it.

The character designs are completely 100% original. If you like to draw cartoons, draw Ren and Stimpy. You'll see how incredibly fun they are to draw, and how you can do ANYTHING with those character designs. I would draw Ren and Stimpy all day during school, and never get bored. That's how inherently great they were on a visual level.

The music, the timing, the voice acting, everything about it is like from another planet. Bursting with creativity. You won't see the same facial expression twice, and you'll never know what's coming next. Oh, and the cartoons actually DO cartoony things.


I can't see where "ugly" comes from? Honestly I can't even begin to fathom that. Stimpy is one of the cutest characters ever created. Even Ren is cute, even when he's mad or stressed out or going crazy, he still looks like a vulnerable little dog. That's part of the key to Ren -- you can never hate him too much or be scared of him, because he's so frail. John K talks about that in one of the commentaries. The humor in the show is character driven, atmosphere driven, story driven.


Whew, I'm a bit overwhelmed here with so much negativity towards Ren and Stimpy. I can't think of anything to dislike about it.


-Jordan

[Jordo]

Went ahead and fixed that for you. You're welcome.

That was kind of obnoxious.

The Simpsons is a whole different story, and it's not a "cartoonist driven" cartoon, it's writer driven. Matt Groening is a cartoonist, but the show is more driven by it's writing. Even Groening's "Life in Hell" is more driven by it's writing. Ren and Stimpy was the one of the only ACTUAL cartoons on TV -- Written in the storyboarding stage, very few scripts written, everyone working on it an actual cartoonist. NO hired writers. Only cartoonists.

The Simpsons was a prime time show not solely intended for little kids (though little kids watched it). Not on saturday morning on Nickelodeon.

My point, if you hadn't CROSSED IT OUT, is that Ren and Stimpy was a show FOR little kids that adults grabbed onto, because of the inherent weirdness, creativity and adult emotions in the show. This was not planned. It just happened. It's a different situation than the Simpsons...


-Jordan

[DrTooth]

Ren and Stimpy singlehandedly revitalized TV animation in the 90s. It was (one of?) the first TV cartoon that both kids and adults watched, but not because it was TRYING to appeal to kids and adults (the way certain cartoons try too hard to now, by throwing in old references, etc.) It was like that because John K put everything of himself into it.

The character designs are completely 100% original. If you like to draw cartoons, draw Ren and Stimpy. You'll see how incredibly fun they are to draw, and how you can do ANYTHING with those character designs. I would draw Ren and Stimpy all day during school, and never get bored. That's how inherently great they were on a visual level.


Classic Ren and Stimpy episodes are the bomb. I'll say that. That's why I'm a fan of this guy. I like how it wasn't cutesy booboo. It's not so much ugly as cartoony. I think R&S is one of the major cartoons that revitalized everything in the 90's. It really helped to start the movement out of more toy driven products of the 80's.

Problem is, it just hurts me to see this guy sit angrilly on his ideas (the ones he owns anyway) when he can go back and create another flash animated empire like he did with the Spumco site. As I said, unlike other media, he doesn;t have to deal with network execs and the like. Even if he were to post them on youtube or something. I just want to see him do something outside of the very same stuffed shirts that refuse to hire him.

Though I will say, he works better in animation for kids that has adult appeal than for straight up adults. The only problem I had with R&S adult Party was that it was funnier when the stuff was hinted at. When it was out in the open, it just loses the charm.

[Antiyonder]

Whew, I'm a bit overwhelmed here with so much negativity towards Ren and Stimpy. I can't think of anything to dislike about it.

Regular Ren & Stimpy was fine. Adult Party was not. It was pretty much an increase in the toilet humor, plus adult content, but without the good writing of John K's earlier episodes.

As I've stated in a prior post, Greg Weisman has more freedom for the Gargoyles comic than he did for the cartoon. Yet, he isn't pushing the boundaries for the sake of it. It still works for the adult audience without going up to an MA style of content. If John had done that with Adult Party, it would probably have been approved for more seasons or at least a few more episodes.

[Marinite]

My point, if you hadn't CROSSED IT OUT, is that Ren and Stimpy was a show FOR little kids that adults grabbed onto, because of the inherent weirdness, creativity and adult emotions in the show. This was not planned. It just happened. It's a different situation than the Simpsons... Every adult I knew as a kid hated it because of the crude, immature humor. Most of them preferred Doug, form what I remember.

[DarthGonzo]

As I've stated in a prior post, Greg Weisman has more freedom for the Gargoyles comic than he did for the cartoon. Yet, he isn't pushing the boundaries for the sake of it. It still works for the adult audience without going up to an MA style of content. If John had done that with Adult Party, it would probably have been approved for more seasons or at least a few more episodes.

But he was still having trouble getting episodes done on time. Apparently, it was the Nick situation all over again. I think the main reason nobody hires him anymore is simply because he just doesn't work well with others.

"Deadlines!? I don't need no stinkin' deadlines. I'm John Kricfalusi!"

[Racattack!Force]

Yeah, wasn't one of the main reasons he was booted off his own show was that he couldn't stick to deadlines? :sweat:

[Jordo]

ONE of the reasons he was fired from his own show was that he couldn't stick with deadlines. Or you could say that was the excuse Nickelodeon took, when really they disliked his sensibility and was worried his show was corrupting or scaring kids, they thought ren was "ugly", and basically disliked everything about the show. Ren and Stimpy made Nickelodeon very, very nervous.

He took long for episodes because it's an art to him. He wasn't into the whole factory made system that could just pump out cartoon after cartoon. He wanted them all to be great.

And this was no "Doug"....the characters looked different in every scene, the stories went all over the universe, anything can happen, and all on a very limited budget. Looking at "Son of Stimpy" or "Sven Hoek" and how beautiful those episodes look, it's incredible what they were able to accomplish on a TV cartoon...


I'm a bit confused by the comparison to Greg Weisman. I'm a huge Gargoyles fan, but we're talking completely different genres, completely different people, and completely different approaches. I don't see the point in comparing them. Greg has never had an interest in being extreme or pushing boundaries, his interest is in character studies and complex storytelling for all ages audiences, which he excels at masterfully. John K's main goal is revitalizing TV animation (not TV writing) and trying new things, and jarring his audience. You're comparing two people who do not have similar sensibilities or goals.

Also Spike TV had TOLD John K to take things to an extreme limit, so he did, but then got scared when they saw how psychologically affective his directing style is. That's what's amazing about John as a director -- he really makes you FEEL what's happening on screen, and it often leaves you feeling disturbed and uncomfortable. Spike TV chickened out.

If you compare any modern day flat looking cartoon to Ren and Stimpy, you can see how great a director John K is. When something happens in Ren and Stimpy you REALLY feel it, because it has weight. Sure the scene in "Onward and Upward" when Stimpy is blowing a big snot bubble is gross (that was the idea), but I'll be darned if I didn't feel it in my nose as I watched. I could practically smell it and touch it. If some other show with flat animation ("fairly oddparents? foster's?) tried it, it wouldn't be as effective.

I'm not trying to convince you people to like it, but I'm consistently blown away, from old ren and stimpy to new (and to certain episodes of Ripping Friends) by how physically real everything happening on screen seems, and how that often leads to feeling extremely grossed out ("onward"), or disturbed ("ren seeks help"), or sympathetic ("son of stimpy.")

Personally I loved Adult Party Cartoon. I have rarely reacted so strongly or laughed that hard as I have during "Ren Seeks Help" or "Firedogs 2." I have rarely been blown away as I was by the facial expressions found in "Onward and Upward", and "Altruists" is just a feat of modern hand drawn animation. The only one I wasn't crazy about was "Stimpy's Pregnant", it was just too mean, but I'll still admit the animation is absolutely incredible.

But hey, that's how I see them...I won't deny they are a bit crass, and make you uncomfortable, but that's whats so exciting about John K cartoons. They've ALWAYS made me feel a little uncomfortable, a little dirty, even when I was a little kid watching Ren and Stimpy. It's part of the strange appeal and John K's personality. I don't know how he does it but he manages to infuse so much uneasiness into his work, but I can't help but admire it. Any director, of movies, cartoons, anything, that can actually get so much of his personality on screen is something to be admired. At least it HAS a personality, unlike so much of TV these days.


-Jordan

[Jordo]

Woh that was really long. Sorry about that everybody! I didn't even realize. Feel free not to read it.

[Racattack!Force]

Okay, I get where you are going with this. It takes a long time to produce quality work. But that isn't truly an excuse for missing deadlines. And yes, compared to some modern cartoons, John K. appears to be pretty good. But he hasn't really bought any thing more to the plate other than Ren and Stimpy for the most part.

[Antiyonder]

John K's main goal is revitalizing TV animation (not TV writing) and trying new things, and jarring his audience. You're comparing two people who do not have similar sensibilities or goals.

I understand and respect new things, but there's a right and wrong way to achieve that. Would you suggest for the action in TMNT to become gory or for Mickey Mouse to become a porn style character for the sake of trying something new?


I'm not trying to convince you people to like it, but I'm consistently blown away, from old ren and stimpy to new (and to certain episodes of Ripping Friends) by how physically real everything happening on screen seems, and how that often leads to feeling extremely grossed out ("onward"), or disturbed ("ren seeks help"), or sympathetic ("son of stimpy.")

Personally I loved Adult Party Cartoon. I have rarely reacted so strongly or laughed that hard as I have during "Ren Seeks Help" or "Firedogs 2." I have rarely been blown away as I was by the facial expressions found in "Onward and Upward", and "Altruists" is just a feat of modern hand drawn animation. The only one I wasn't crazy about was "Stimpy's Pregnant", it was just too mean, but I'll still admit the animation is absolutely incredible.

-Jordan

What drew many to Ren & Stimpy was that there was good writing and character moments to back up the toliet humor. Infact since you brought up Ren Seeks Help, I'd have to say I'm sorry I missed that one. From what I've heard, Ren Seeks Help actually had the feel of the Classic Ren & Stimpy.

[Jordo]

I understand and respect new things, but there's a right and wrong way to achieve that. Would you suggest for the action in TMNT to become gory or for Mickey Mouse to become a porn style character for the sake of trying something new?

Yes!

But seriously...John K was REQUESTED to make an adult version of Ren and Stimpy, and to make it manly and extreme. He loves getting assignments (he always talks in his blog about how he loves doing commercials and music videos, work by assignment) so he provided.

He even admitted in his blog that he wishes he got the chance to make a more child friendly Ren and Stimpy afterwards.

But it's all taste...I enjoyed the naked girls in "Naked Beach Frenzy", I enjoyed the poo humor in "Firedogs 2" (which is really just a character study episode)...It did not offend me. It was just years of bottled up stuff exploding out of John K.

Nobody is saying "trying something new = porn." There are a ton of other new elements in those cartoons besides just dirty stuff. Animation techniques, backgrounds, voice acting, all the new animators he put to work, etc, etc. Those cartoons have a LOT to offer.

What Spike TV didn't get is that when John K does extreme or disturbing stuff, it actually feels genuinely extreme and disturbing, not in some sort of parody way, like how South Park (which I love) feels. It really sinks into your gut.


What drew many to Ren & Stimpy was that there was good writing and character moments to back up the toliet humor. Infact since you brought up Ren Seeks Help, I'd have to say I'm sorry I missed that one. From what I've heard, Ren Seeks Help actually had the feel of the Classic Ren & Stimpy.


The Adult Party episodes are all about character moments! Every frame gives you a NEW character moment, because of John K's strict rule that no facial expression or pose be repeated twice!

The inspiration for the drawings all came from people he knew, or from looking in a mirror, he even used a facial expression for Ren that he saw in a DREAM. The show is full of humanity "to back up the toilet humor."

I don't think you'd like Ren Seeks Help. It's incredibly mean, psychotic, cynical and brutally dark. It's full of torture and aggression. I think it's hilarious though, and animation wise it's beautiful. And yes, several aspects of it are based on John K's life and things he's experienced.


-Jordan

[Racattack!Force]

The way I see it, Ren and Stimpy is like an old burrito. It's big, kinda gooey, and delicious (in other words, a pretty good show). But after eating in all (watch an episode), it makes you wannna throw-up (makes you feel sick).

[Master Moron]

I understand and respect new things, but there's a right and wrong way to achieve that. Would you suggest for the action in TMNT to become gory

Aw, hell yeah! I want to see Leonardo do some real damage with his swords!

[DarthGonzo]

Aw, hell yeah! I want to see Leonardo do some real damage with his swords!

It's a kid's franchise so that'll never happen luckily.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Personally, I could care less what John K thinks. He's lost most of his credibility with me :shrug:

Bashing Disney, Pixar, and other big studios when he hasn't even come CLOSE to the level of quality work they've put out (both animation and writing) just makes him come across as very arrogant.

If he actually DOES something worth watching maybe I'll take his opinions a little more seriously.

That's pretty much my take. I honestly can't get into his cartoons either. To me he seems stuck in some pseudo retro realm of old Warner Brothers cartoon animation and dated 90s "gross-out and shout your lines" humour. There's nothing wrong with either, but John K seems unable to adapt.

[Antiyonder]

Aw, hell yeah! I want to see Leonardo do some real damage with his swords!

Is it that or do you feel embarassment by your peers for watching a cartoon devoid of adult content?

[Jave]

That's pretty much my take. I honestly can't get into his cartoons either. To me he seems stuck in some pseudo retro realm of old Warner Brothers cartoon animation and dated 90s "gross-out and shout your lines" humour. There's nothing wrong with either, but John K seems unable to adapt.I think that John K's biggest flaw is that he makes his cartoon to entertain himself and not the general audience. In a blog post he stated that he made each episode of APC to entertain a specific type of audience, which is really stupid, as it seems the only people that can watch every episode of that show are those who idolize everything John K does.

I know John is a talented cartoonist, and he can clearly make a good cartoon, but he needs to realize that entertaining the general public should be the first priority. That's what he did with original R&S, after all, but making cartons for yourself doesn't work anymore. If you want to do that, keep your cartoons to yourself.

The guy is also not flawless. I could make a whole post on how "Boo Boo Goes Wild" is one of the worst cartoons ever made. And need I remind anyone of the R&S "UNCUT" DVD?

[DarthGonzo]

I could make a whole post on how "Boo Boo Goes Wild" is one of the worst cartoons ever made.

Could you?

[Jave]

Could you?You WANT me to? ;)

[DarthGonzo]

You WANT me to? ;)

Why not, it would probably be quite cathartic for both of us. LOL

[Darklordavaitor]

And need I remind anyone of the R&S "UNCUT" DVD?
Remind him. I'm still waiting for the complete, unedited series set he promised.

And please, please do a thread dedicated to the suck of "Boo Boo Goes Wild". The discussion that could come out of thjat would be limitlessly entertaining.

[Jave]

I remember talking about this a while ago, but here goes:

"Boo Boo Goes Wild" is quite possibly, the slowest-paced cartoon ever made. It has a good premise, some of the gags are funny, but there's this thing that absolutely kills the cartoon, and it's that it goes on and on, and just never seems to end.

Now, I can understand where John was trying to go here. I mean, the original Yogi toons were filled with stock poses and looped sequences, but even those moved at a pace that felt more natural. There are so many stretches in "Boo Boo Goes Wild" I can't even count them.

It's been a while since I last saw the cartoon, but I remember several scenes in which the characters seem to do nothing outside of blinking. This is notorious when Cindy first sees Boo Boo, or when Yogi and Ranger Smith confront in the cabin.

The gag of Ranger Smith changing design on every scene was clever, but got old when he kept stretching it through the cartoon. I can understand the allusion, but it still felt not nearly as funny by the end of the cartoon.

I'll have to rewatch to make a more detailed review, but in short: "Boo Boo Goes Wild" is a 7-minute short that is stretched into 20. I think the cartoon could be shortened by at least 5 minutes by simply removing a few seconds out of every scene and it would still deliver the same result.

[Darklordavaitor]

Sounds exactly like how it was last time, but I'd expect you to be a smidge harsher.

[Jordo]

I agree that Boo Boo Goes Wild is slow paced, but I love it. Again -- I thought it was beautifully animated, the acting was great, and it was incredibly funny and effective.

John K has admitted to timing problems in the past, scenes dragging, etc.

In a weird way I think the slow pacing sort of furthers the surreal and disturbing feel of the cartoon. If you were to edit out the bizarre pause when Ranger Smith puts his arm on Yogi's leg, the psychological effect of the scene would be COMPLETELY lost. Sure, it would save a few seconds, but then would it be saying the same thing?

I enjoy that John Ks cartoons are some of the only ones that have pauses, tone, take a breath, slow down. It's not just assaulting you with stuff nonstop like other kids cartoons. The timing in John K's cartoons are unlike anything I've ever seen, for better or worse! It's very dream like.


-Jordan

[Master Moron]

Is it that or do you feel embarassment by your peers for watching a cartoon devoid of adult content?

Well, if I actually watched Ninja Turtles in front of other people I'd probably be more embarrassed about the bad dialogue and cheesy voices, but I really think the show would just be so much cooler with more violence. Imagine how awesome the fight with those evil turtles would be with more violence?

"Leonardo you can never beat me."
*slices off of evil turtle's arm, blood sprays everywhere*
"Why you! How dare you cut off my arm!"
*hacks evil turtle into pieces, spraying out a geyser of blood.*

It would be so much better than just seeing them kick each other.

[HG Revolution]

making cartons for yourself doesn't work anymore. If you want to do that, keep your cartoons to yourself.

The Looney Tunes, Spongebob, and Samurai Jack, among others, were made mostly for the amusement of their creators.

[DarthGonzo]

The Looney Tunes, Spongebob, and Samurai Jack, among others, were made mostly for the amusement of their creators.

Apples and oranges.

The creators of all of those properties may have been amusing themselves with their creations, but they were also well aware that their output needed to appeal to a wide audience. Spongebob has a hugely broad appeal and has been popular for almost 10 years. Samurai Jack has a huge cult following. The Looney Tunes cartoons have been popular for over 70 years now, and many of the cartoons have been considered masterpieces with the creators (Avery, Jones, Clampett, Freleng) heralded as the greatest cartoonists who ever lived.

John K seems incapable of pleasing anyone but himself and the handful of worshipers who follow him around and fawn over everything he does. He hasn't done anything that's been anywhere near successful since the early 90s. He's crude, disturbing, doesn't play well with others, and insists on doing things his way and his way only. He's not really going to further his career that way and he's all the more bitter because of it.

John K's way of amusing himself is to revel in the dark, ugly side of human nature, with no boundaries as to who his cartoons bother. And again, I honestly believe he thinks he's the second coming of Bob Clampett. To John it's all feces, farts, genitalia, gay jokes and men being men.

[Henk55]

Well, if I actually watched Ninja Turtles in front of other people I'd probably be more embarrassed about the bad dialogue and cheesy voices, but I really think the show would just be so much cooler with more violence. Imagine how awesome the fight with those evil turtles would be with more violence?

"Leonardo you can never beat me."
*slices off of evil turtle's arm, blood sprays everywhere*
"Why you! How dare you cut off my arm!"
*hacks evil turtle into pieces, spraying out a geyser of blood.*

It would be so much better than just seeing them kick each other.

Why does every action cartoon has to have all that bad dialogue and cheesy voices? Nobody cares about it anyway, especially the kids. Watch action cartoons for the action, ditto.

[DarthGonzo]

Why does every action cartoon has to have all that bad dialogue and cheesy voices? Nobody cares about it anyway, especially the kids. Watch action cartoons for the action, ditto.

I don't know if Master Moron is serious or just being silly but obviously the TMNT franchise is never to going to be full of blood and gore in their action scenes. Again, it's meant for little kids.

[Zorak Masaki]

I don't know if Master Moron is serious or just being silly but obviously the TMNT franchise is never to going to be full of blood and gore in their action scenes. Again, it's meant for little kids.

Even the original mirage comic (at least, from what ive read) wasnt like that, and they were publishing outside the comics code authority. Making TMNT with full-on gore would make it look like a creation of,,rob liefeld. Do you really want THAT?

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Even the original mirage comic (at least, from what ive read) wasnt like that, and they were publishing outside the comics code authority. Making TMNT with full-on gore would make it look like a creation of,,rob liefeld. Do you really want THAT?

Actually, the old Laird-Eastman comics DID have blood and some gore. Now, it wasn't like hearts getting ripped out, but guys were getting slashed and there were a few stories where limbs flew.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Apples and oranges.

The creators of all of those properties may have been amusing themselves with their creations, but they were also well aware that their output needed to appeal to a wide audience. Spongebob has a hugely broad appeal and has been popular for almost 10 years. Samurai Jack has a huge cult following. The Looney Tunes cartoons have been popular for over 70 years now, and many of the cartoons have been considered masterpieces with the creators (Avery, Jones, Clampett, Freleng) heralded as the greatest cartoonists who ever lived.

John K seems incapable of pleasing anyone but himself and the handful of worshipers who follow him around and fawn over everything he does. He hasn't done anything that's been anywhere near successful since the early 90s. He's crude, disturbing, doesn't play well with others, and insists on doing things his way and his way only. He's not really going to further his career that way and he's all the more bitter because of it.

John K's way of amusing himself is to revel in the dark, ugly side of human nature, with no boundaries as to who his cartoons bother. And again, I honestly believe he thinks he's the second coming of Bob Clampett. To John it's all feces, farts, genitalia, gay jokes and men being men.

The ironic thing is Spongebob pretty much "out-John K'ed" John K, because Spongebob is actually the closest thing to the kind of animation John K is searching for on today's television, except it's done better than most anything he's done and it's more accessible to most audiences.

[tb4000]

The ironic thing is Spongebob pretty much "out-John K'ed" John K, because Spongebob is actually the closest thing to the kind of animation John K is searching for on today's television, except it's done better than most anything he's done and it's more accessible to most audiences.


Didn't some of the staff that worked on R&S go over to Spongebob anyway?

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Didn't some of the staff that worked on R&S go over to Spongebob anyway?

I wouldn't be surprised. He always did seem to have talented hands working on his shows, but the whole usually didn't seem to add up to much.

[Speedy Boris]

I remember talking about this a while ago, but here goes:

"Boo Boo Goes Wild" is quite possibly, the slowest-paced cartoon ever made. It has a good premise, some of the gags are funny, but there's this thing that absolutely kills the cartoon, and it's that it goes on and on, and just never seems to end.

Now, I can understand where John was trying to go here. I mean, the original Yogi toons were filled with stock poses and looped sequences, but even those moved at a pace that felt more natural. There are so many stretches in "Boo Boo Goes Wild" I can't even count them.

It's been a while since I last saw the cartoon, but I remember several scenes in which the characters seem to do nothing outside of blinking. This is notorious when Cindy first sees Boo Boo, or when Yogi and Ranger Smith confront in the cabin.

The gag of Ranger Smith changing design on every scene was clever, but got old when he kept stretching it through the cartoon. I can understand the allusion, but it still felt not nearly as funny by the end of the cartoon.

I'll have to rewatch to make a more detailed review, but in short: "Boo Boo Goes Wild" is a 7-minute short that is stretched into 20. I think the cartoon could be shortened by at least 5 minutes by simply removing a few seconds out of every scene and it would still deliver the same result. The changing Ranger Smith design was already done in the earlier Spumco Yogi short "A Day in the Life of Ranger Smith" anyway (which I found was the far stronger of the two... well, three if you count the internet-only short).

[Jordo]

The ironic thing is Spongebob pretty much "out-John K'ed" John K, because Spongebob is actually the closest thing to the kind of animation John K is searching for on today's television, except it's done better than most anything he's done and it's more accessible to most audiences.


:: pulls hair out in frustration:: ARGGHH!

Look, nothing against Spongebob, there are some clever jokes and talented writers, but the animation has NOTHING on Ren and Stimpy. I've never seen anything remotely as creative on Spongebob in a visual or EXPRESSIVE sense, except "thumbnail" versions of what already came before in Ren and Stimpy. The facial expressions, poses, timing, backgrounds, of ren and stimpy are always unpredictable and always seem to come from another planet. I've rarely seen Spongebob look different than he always does in every scene. He's always exactly on model and the animation has never moved me in any sense.

This goes back to my previous point -- I see Spongebob and I see a show that is weird because it's TRYING TO BE WEIRD, it's trying to "capture" (capitalize?) what Ren and Stimpy had that appealed to adults.

But Ren and Stimpy wasn't "trying" to be weird...It was JUST PLAIN WEIRD. Because John K is weird. It was more honest than Spongebob. John K's stubbornness, and even his amateurism at leading his first ever cartoon series, resulted in a very NATURALLY weird, bizarre show. Not because he was trying. I think that's a beautiful thing.


-Jordan

[HG Revolution]

:: pulls hair out in frustration:: ARGGHH!

Look, nothing against Spongebob, there are some clever jokes and talented writers, but the animation has NOTHING on Ren and Stimpy. I've never seen anything remotely as creative on Spongebob in a visual or EXPRESSIVE sense, except "thumbnail" versions of what already came before in Ren and Stimpy. The facial expressions, poses, timing, backgrounds, of ren and stimpy are always unpredictable and always seem to come from another planet. I've rarely seen Spongebob look different than he always does in every scene. He's always exactly on model and the animation has never moved me in any sense.

This goes back to my previous point -- I see Spongebob and I see a show that is weird because it's TRYING TO BE WEIRD, it's trying to "capture" (capitalize?) what Ren and Stimpy had that appealed to adults.

But Ren and Stimpy wasn't "trying" to be weird...It was JUST PLAIN WEIRD. Because John K is weird. It was more honest than Spongebob. John K's stubbornness, and even his amateurism at leading his first ever cartoon series, resulted in a very NATURALLY weird, bizarre show. Not because he was trying. I think that's a beautiful thing.


-Jordan

The original series may have been natural for John K., but the Adult Party Cartoon, from what I can gather (I'm scared to watch it from what I've heard about it), was at times trying too hard to be extreme.

[DarthGonzo]

:: pulls hair out in frustration:: ARGGHH!

Look, nothing against Spongebob, there are some clever jokes and talented writers, but the animation has NOTHING on Ren and Stimpy. I've never seen anything remotely as creative on Spongebob in a visual or EXPRESSIVE sense, except "thumbnail" versions of what already came before in Ren and Stimpy. The facial expressions, poses, timing, backgrounds, of ren and stimpy are always unpredictable and always seem to come from another planet. I've rarely seen Spongebob look different than he always does in every scene. He's always exactly on model and the animation has never moved me in any sense.

This goes back to my previous point -- I see Spongebob and I see a show that is weird because it's TRYING TO BE WEIRD, it's trying to "capture" (capitalize?) what Ren and Stimpy had that appealed to adults.

But Ren and Stimpy wasn't "trying" to be weird...It was JUST PLAIN WEIRD. Because John K is weird. It was more honest than Spongebob. John K's stubbornness, and even his amateurism at leading his first ever cartoon series, resulted in a very NATURALLY weird, bizarre show. Not because he was trying. I think that's a beautiful thing.


Do you even watch Spongebob Squarepants?

[Annie-Mae]

The problem with Spongebob and John K's stuff is that their expressive styles and overly human expressions turn off viewers. John K talks about this too, how most audiences can't handle seeing human expressions on cartoons. What Jordo was saying is true about Spongebob because they can't draw him off model for marketing reasons. If Spongebob got any uglier looking they'd kick him off the air. It's things like that though that make me wonder why Rugrats lasted as long as it did, it must've been really cheep to animate.
I respect seeing those overly expressive designs and fluid animation on TV but the normal non cartooning viewer can't. It's like going to the fair and have a cartoonist draw you but when he's done you don't like how he drew it because you think it looks nothing like you, even though he's over expressing your human facial features. If Spongebob has anything over John K's work is that it can be cute, and cute sells better then talent.
Note: I love both John K's work and SBSP, and I agree that SBSP is one of the best animated things out there today. We should appreciate the network gives them to budget to animate like they do.

[Antiyonder]

Well, if I actually watched Ninja Turtles in front of other people I'd probably be more embarrassed about the bad dialogue and cheesy voices, but I really think the show would just be so much cooler with more violence. Imagine how awesome the fight with those evil turtles would be with more violence?

"Leonardo you can never beat me."
*slices off of evil turtle's arm, blood sprays everywhere*
"Why you! How dare you cut off my arm!"
*hacks evil turtle into pieces, spraying out a geyser of blood.*

It would be so much better than just seeing them kick each other.

I feel sorry for you then. If you can't watch something for your own enjoyment (You seem to be the kind of person who would only watch something to impress others), you probably shouldn't watch it at all.

[Racattack!Force]

This goes back to my previous point -- I see Spongebob and I see a show that is weird because it's TRYING TO BE WEIRD, it's trying to "capture" (capitalize?) what Ren and Stimpy had that appealed to adults.

-Jordan
Um dude, Hillenburg (the guy who created Spongebob) wasn't really trying to capture anything. It's just an amusing idea the creator had and wanted to be see. With is the basic idea for any tv series.

[Jave]

The problem with Spongebob and John K's stuff is that their expressive styles and overly human expressions turn off viewers.Spongebob has lasted for about 10 years already and its ratings are decent at worst and gigantic at best. That statement doesn't make any sense.

[Racattack!Force]

Spongebob has lasted for about 10 years already and its ratings are decent at worst and gigantic at best. That statement doesn't make any sense.
Ren and Stimpy lasted about 5 years and got pretty decent ratings (you know, until it got cancelled :sweat: ). So what Annie-Mae said makes no sense for R&s either.

[DarthGonzo]

Spongebob has lasted for about 10 years already and its ratings are decent at worst and gigantic at best. That statement doesn't make any sense.

How does Spongebob have overly human expressions anyway? Mr Krabs has eye stalks, Patrick is a cone-head without a nose, Plankton has one eye. All the extras are stylized fish...

[Annie-Mae]

I've talked to people about how the expressions of Spongebob and R&S was so ugly that they didn't watch it. There's alot more about a show being cancled then just how they're drawn (such as if the producers and creators are really nice people. He's a hard guy to work with which is why they fired him after three seasons) but the style of the show explains alot about it's popularity.

Look at the old R&S cartoons and compaire then with the adult party version. R&S in the past had a more simple design with semi on model expressions. The adult party version had many overly expressive facial features and unusual expressions. I mean how can you people not understand that, you obviously don't read John K blog to understad the difference between basic expressions and overly exagerted expressions.

Here is the best article I could find to show wht John K thinks are good exressions vr. old boaring expressions. It also explain what I'm trying to say about human expressions. > http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/2007/11/cartoon-college-year-3.html#links

My point is that people tend to dislike Spongebob because it's drawn in an ugly style, or in an overly expressive style they're not used to looking at. When Bob starts crying tears and spits them into someone elses mouth, it's overly expressive and gross subject matter. SouthPark or Family Guy can be popular even though it can be just as gross because the art style isn't as expressive or as humaly detailed. In that article John makes a great point:
John k-
During your career you will be called upon to rely on formula and cliche, although your bosses won't call them that. If you recognize them for what they are, you can adapt quickly to different styles.


He's saying that Excutives would prefer artists to use a commenly used expression/style or copy an expression that's already been used then rather relying on your personal experiance and real life expressions (even if they are disturbing to draw). Anime is an odd style because for being so limited it can be so expressive but not in a realistic way. I can't really see John k liking Anime over that article about color but anime has some great expressions (I mean what cartoon nut DOESN'T like FLCL?)

[Zorak Masaki]

I wonder what john would think of excel saga. Granted, the parodies are so obscure you have to be a total anime nut to understand them, but the expressions on most of the characters (save hyatt, illpallazo, and sumiyoshi, and thats for a reason) are very expressive. Heck, psycho excel (ie, when she brandishes knives and so forth) has great cartoony design, as does scared menchi.

[DrTooth]

:: pulls hair out in frustration:: ARGGHH!

Look, nothing against Spongebob, there are some clever jokes and talented writers, but the animation has NOTHING on Ren and Stimpy. I've never seen anything remotely as creative on Spongebob in a visual or EXPRESSIVE sense, except "thumbnail" versions of what already came before in Ren and Stimpy. The facial expressions, poses, timing, backgrounds, of ren and stimpy are always unpredictable and always seem to come from another planet. I've rarely seen Spongebob look different than he always does in every scene. He's always exactly on model and the animation has never moved me in any sense.

I dunno. A cartoon where the main character eats a Popcorn bucket full of his own arms screams originality to me.

[Hiya Animation]

This is interesting:

http://www.michaelbarrier.com/Feedback/feedback_johnk.htm

An interesting, if not heated, discussion between John K and Michael Barrier.

Anyone read it before?

[Movie06]

Man, was that debate crazy.

[Henk55]

Do you even watch Spongebob Squarepants?

I like SpongeBob too and watch it but I definitely see what he's saying. I just watched the imagination box episode and it was hilarious, and very imaginative idea. But the way whole show moves and feels is pretty consistent throughout the series. Asking for a variety in style on episode basis may seem extreme these days, but that's just what Ren and Stimpy did. It feels so warm and innovative compared to the huge part of modern cartoons

Spongebob eating a popcorn bucket full of his own arms is a gag... and the gags and the story are the only things that seem to matter. No suprises in the other departments.


About the "overly human expressions" that "normal non-cartooning" viewers can't handle"? Well most cartoons are made for KIDS, and they are just as cold as the Family Guy. Ok, I don't care for the Family Guy, but why does everybody else have to follow it?

[Jordo]

Re: box of arms, etc in Spongebob.

As I said in my original post, Spongebob has some very talented writers and has some very funny gags.

But it does NOT have variety of expression or much humanity in any of the poses or facial expressions of the characters. Everything I've seen of Spongebob looks the same, i.e. can't tell one episode from the other, one scene from the other. He seems to always have the same basic expressions, and they are very very simplified and routinely applied. And I have DEFINITELY seen many poses and basic expressions that I can only recall first ever seeing in a Spumco cartoon.

That's why I called it a "thumbnail" version of Ren and Stimpy (much like what the later seasons of Ren and Stimpy were to...Ren and Stimpy)... Because it's trying to capture the chaotic feel, the weirdness, the sneaky adult humor (and it is succeeding in many respects), but MISSING the technique, the humanity, the individuality in the drawings and the personality.

I'm not saying every cartoon should be like that (again, I'm a south park fan, simpsons fan, etc)-- this was all spurred by somebody declaring that Spongebob "out John K's John K." , which I think is incredibly false.

To even use the phrase "on model" with Ren and Stimpy is meaningless. There WERE no models! No "key" expressions. The way they looked in each individual moment was only meant to capture the characters feelings at that specific time. This is John K's specialty. Hate his gross jokes, hate his blog or stubbornness, or his opinions, but THAT was his specialty!

P.S. I love that debate with Michael Barrier. John has really interesting points about Disney, and how Disney achieves emotion through lighting, music, movement, but never through original acting. I have not seen anything to the contrary...?


-Jordan

[Zorak Masaki]

Since this is just a catch-all john k thread, does anyone know what john k's involvement in 2 stupid dogs was? He's credited in 3 eps for "tidbits of bad taste" but i dont know how much involvement he had in the show, and why he only did 3 eps.

[madhair60]

OK, John K thread.

I have mixed feelings about the man. Much as I love Ren and Stimpy's first few seasons, what exactly of note has he/Spumco produced since then?

Also I get tired of seeing people complain (not so much here, but elsewhere online) about his firing from Nick - people seem to believe the myth that he got sacked for controversial content.

No, no - all the shows would have been screened for execs, who would have had anything truly objectionable cut out. The reason he was fired was because he missed deadlines and argued with higher-ups. No matter what field you work in, if you miss deadlines and argue with superiors you WILL get sacked.

Also, he really does come across as a tremendously arrogant man, completely blind to his own faults.

[Zorak Masaki]

OK, John K thread.

I have mixed feelings about the man. Much as I love Ren and Stimpy's first few seasons, what exactly of note has he/Spumco produced since then?

Also I get tired of seeing people complain (not so much here, but elsewhere online) about his firing from Nick - people seem to believe the myth that he got sacked for controversial content.



Well, to be fair, he did produce a george liquour webtoon and the ripping friends and videos for bjork, tenacious d, and weird al so its not like he's completely relying on the past. BTW, am i the only one who thinks stimpy doesnt look like much of a cat? I mean, ive never seen a cat who looks anything like stimpy (ive seen ren-like dogs so its not just john k's unique design for his characters).

[Silverstar]

BTW, am i the only one who thinks stimpy doesnt look like much of a cat? I mean, ive never seen a cat who looks anything like stimpy

Well, Stimpy wasn't originally a cat; he was just a cartoon blob that Kricfalusi had been doodling for years. When he began putting together The Ren & Stimpy Show, he made Stimpy into a cat.

[Jordo]

OK, John K thread.

I have mixed feelings about the man. Much as I love Ren and Stimpy's first few seasons, what exactly of note has he/Spumco produced since then?

Also I get tired of seeing people complain (not so much here, but elsewhere online) about his firing from Nick - people seem to believe the myth that he got sacked for controversial content.

No, no - all the shows would have been screened for execs, who would have had anything truly objectionable cut out. The reason he was fired was because he missed deadlines and argued with higher-ups. No matter what field you work in, if you miss deadlines and argue with superiors you WILL get sacked.

Also, he really does come across as a tremendously arrogant man, completely blind to his own faults.


I'm not sure of the research you've done, but if you've read interviews with him, or his blog, you would see he is most definitely NOT "blind to his own faults." He has stated several complaints about his own cartoons all the time.

I still go by the fact that the "official" reason he got fired was missing deadlines -- But it was a BAD relationship with Nickelodeon. They did NOT trust him, they wanted EVERYTHING in his story outlines changed (he did a detailed blog post about this), and they were scared of him.

No one is defending missing your deadlines, but to fire him and then make the cartoon without him, and not only that but try to "capture" what he did and turning the gross out level to a million...

If you listen to John K's commentaries on the Ren and Stimpy DVDs (which you should!) he goes into detail. Not only did Nickelodeon LEAVE HIS NAME OUT OF THE CREDITS for episodes he had written ("where's my name?" he jokingly asks for these episodes), but in an attempt to still be "gross", they did horrible things to Ren and Stimpy.

They put blood in the cartoons, maggots, killed off the characters in disgusting ways. John K always defends that he put gross things that little kids like -- boogers, farts, etc. But Games animation put in disturbing, ugly, awful things, like blood and disease and death.

I find it odd.

Oh yeah, and in terms of what he has produced since Ren and Stimpy of note -- Sadly, not enough. But The Ripping Friends has a few STAND OUT episodes, absolutely great. He lead the flash animation boom (again, he has a blog post about it) and he was one of those in charge of revitalizing cartoon network (getting Dexters Lab, Powerpuff Girls, etc on the air.)

I think the Adult Ren and Stimpy episodes are powerhouses of intricate, creative, and mind blowing animation -- regardless of whether you find the content funny or not (I do, for the most part.)

His Weird Al video is beautiful too. But I wish he had some TV series. Networks are scared of him.

Jesus christ my posts are always too long, I guess I really like John K.
-Jordan

[Jave]

he was one of those in charge of revitalizing cartoon network (getting Dexters Lab, Powerpuff Girls, etc on the air.)Now I'm going to have to demand evidence. I keep hearing Spumco fans tossing this statement left and right but I haven't found anything to back it up. His never was never in any credits outside of the Yogi cartoons he made and a very quick "Special Thanks" credit in "Tales of the Paranoia Worm" cartoon (which was done by Eddie Fitzgerald). I've seen people go as far as claiming that Dexter's Lab and PPG RIPPED OFF Ren & Stimpy. Seriously, people, HOW?

I recall a lot of people giving up on Spumco back when the "UNCUT" first season was released. A lot of people claimed they weren't going to buy it because the cartoons were edited, and John K made a public post (I believe it was in a forum) were he basically called all those people ingrates and begged others to buy the set. I personally didn't care for that (the set wasn't released down here anyway), but I can understand why many people (even some of the most loyal fans) gave up on him after that.

I'd love to see John K doing a cartoon in the same vein of Classic R&S. Good animation, good layouts, good timing, good writing, good EVERYTHING. The guy has talent, I'm positive of that, but he needs to realize that not everyone is attracted to the kind of humor he seems to overuse in his recent cartoons.

[Martianinvader]

*reads interview*

I think you have made up in your mind what the perfect cartoon for you is and you are looking for only those elements in everything you watch and when a cartoon doesn't give you that (which 99.9999 percent of them won't) you can't see all the other good things that are happening that people of wider tastes can appreciate.

....Is he talking to, uh, himself?

[Antiyonder]

No, no - all the shows would have been screened for execs, who would have had anything truly objectionable cut out. The reason he was fired was because he missed deadlines and argued with higher-ups. No matter what field you work in, if you miss deadlines and argue with superiors you WILL get sacked.

Too bad Marvel didn't read the memo when Kevin Smith was writing his Spider-Man miniseries. The last few issues took years to come out, and the only reason Marvel didn't object was due to his status as a hot director and being friends with Joe Quesada.

No one is defending missing your deadlines, but to fire him and then make the cartoon without him, and not only that but try to "capture" what he did and turning the gross out level to a million...

Have to say it gives me more respect for Nick. The thing to keep in mind is that a job (even one you enjoy) isn't like a hobby where you can pick and choose when to get involved. You either put yourself fully into it or don't do it at all.

I think the Adult Ren and Stimpy episodes are powerhouses of intricate, creative, and mind blowing animation -- regardless of whether you find the content funny or not (I do, for the most part.)

Anyone can make a show with excessive adult content, but true creativity would be to make an outstanding show without the content.

Classic Ren & Stimpy- Adult bits are handled subtly thus requiring the viewer to pick it up on their own.

AP Ren & Stimpy- Constantly hammers you over the head saying, "Our cartoon has more content, our cartoon has more content".

Jesus christ my posts are always too long, I guess I really like John K.
-Jordan

Nothing wrong with liking him, but hero worship (which I perceive your views on him) is unhealthy. Sure you've made a critical statement or two, but it's like with you, no matter what he does wrong, he's the reigning Champ in your eyes.

I like Stan Lee (not personally), but I don't defend some of his particular choices that I find unpleasant (i.e. Stripperella or the planned Paris Hilton cartoon).

[Racattack!Force]

If you listen to John K's commentaries on the Ren and Stimpy DVDs (which you should!) he goes into detail. Not only did Nickelodeon LEAVE HIS NAME OUT OF THE CREDITS for episodes he had written ("where's my name?" he jokingly asks for these episodes), but in an attempt to still be "gross", they did horrible things to Ren and Stimpy.
-Jordan
That's funny, since they still episodes with him credited on NN.

[Darklordavaitor]

I'm not sure of the research you've done, but if you've read interviews with him, or his blog, you would see he is most definitely NOT "blind to his own faults." He has stated several complaints about his own cartoons all the time.

I still go by the fact that the "official" reason he got fired was missing deadlines -- But it was a BAD relationship with Nickelodeon. They did NOT trust him, they wanted EVERYTHING in his story outlines changed (he did a detailed blog post about this), and they were scared of him.

No one is defending missing your deadlines, but to fire him and then make the cartoon without him, and not only that but try to "capture" what he did and turning the gross out level to a million...

If you listen to John K's commentaries on the Ren and Stimpy DVDs (which you should!) he goes into detail. Not only did Nickelodeon LEAVE HIS NAME OUT OF THE CREDITS for episodes he had written ("where's my name?" he jokingly asks for these episodes), but in an attempt to still be "gross", they did horrible things to Ren and Stimpy.

They put blood in the cartoons, maggots, killed off the characters in disgusting ways. John K always defends that he put gross things that little kids like -- boogers, farts, etc. But Games animation put in disturbing, ugly, awful things, like blood and disease and death.

I find it odd.

Oh yeah, and in terms of what he has produced since Ren and Stimpy of note -- Sadly, not enough. But The Ripping Friends has a few STAND OUT episodes, absolutely great. He lead the flash animation boom (again, he has a blog post about it) and he was one of those in charge of revitalizing cartoon network (getting Dexters Lab, Powerpuff Girls, etc on the air.)

I think the Adult Ren and Stimpy episodes are powerhouses of intricate, creative, and mind blowing animation -- regardless of whether you find the content funny or not (I do, for the most part.)

His Weird Al video is beautiful too. But I wish he had some TV series. Networks are scared of him.

Jesus christ my posts are always too long, I guess I really like John K.
-Jordan
Are you sure you're not John K?

[Super Leviathan]

There's this Bill Wray quote from a 1993 magazine that is along the lines of "Nick could've tolerated going overbudget, they could've tolerated an episode having to be banned for inappropriate content, as long as they had episodes to air", basically coming to the conclusion that deadlines were the foremost reason for the Spumco thing.

...and that idea makes the most sense. What network is going to totally dismantle thier then-most popular show's production team over small amounts of footage that were later cut out or shelved? If that was standard procedure, then Matt Groening, Seth MacFarlane, Trey Parker, and any TV cartoon creator whose show featured a tsunami/hurricane-related episode would've been out of work long ago.


I recall a lot of people giving up on Spumco back when the "UNCUT" first season was released. A lot of people claimed they weren't going to buy it because the cartoons were edited, and John K made a public post (I believe it was in a forum) were he basically called all those people ingrates and begged others to buy the set.

Actually, I was one of those people. John blamed Nick for the edits (Strange, considering how Nick never cut up episodes like Ren's Toothache or Haunted House to begin with), Steve Worth blamed SpikeTV for the edits, and Lyris tried to pass off the edits is "Director's Cuts". They couldn't even find one concrete reason for the edits, and expected everyone to obediently buy their hot potato game. That was the beginning of the end for my loyalty to Spumco.

And this was before John's blog, when his presence online was mostly the occasional IRC chat or interview. When he gets its going the "The Only GOOD Cartoon is a Bob Clampett Cartoon" floodgates are REALLY opened, with Steve Worth bascially saying anyone on various blogs and forums who doesn't blindly swallow John's statments hook, line and sinker is too stupid to understand the art of animation.

Before I close this, let me just say that I wanted to support Spumco. I did in the past, and wanted to continue doing so. But if you read enough of the writing of Spumco's top officers with an impartial eye, then it becomes really, really hard to support them.

[Super Leviathan]

Now I'm going to have to demand evidence. I keep hearing Spumco fans tossing this statement left and right but I haven't found anything to back it up. His never was never in any credits outside of the Yogi cartoons he made and a very quick "Special Thanks" credit in "Tales of the Paranoia Worm" cartoon (which was done by Eddie Fitzgerald). I've seen people go as far as claiming that Dexter's Lab and PPG RIPPED OFF Ren & Stimpy. Seriously, people, HOW?

Genndy was apparently influenced by John K. (Jon McClenahan talks about this briefly in his interview with Martianinvader) which sadly makes Dexter fair game for John's whacked-out claims.

Now, as far as The Powerpuff Girls are concerned, there's ZERO factual backing on that being a Ren and Stimpy ripoff.

[Jordo]

Now I'm going to have to demand evidence.

Ok, calm down.

...Read his blog. He was the one that had meetings with the head of Cartoon Network, spearheaded the idea of "Cartoon Cartoon", where all these new creator driven shows battle it out to see who gets a series. He wouldn't exactly be credited in the specific shows. He was more like a network consultant for the whole thing.

He also greatly admires all of those creators work. Boo, hiss! What a mean guy!



-Jordan

[Jordo]

Have to say it gives me more respect for Nick. The thing to keep in mind is that a job (even one you enjoy) isn't like a hobby where you can pick and choose when to get involved. You either put yourself fully into it or don't do it at all.

You...respect Nick for stealing somebody's creation? Do you respect the Goliath Chronicles too (to continue the weird comparison to Greg Weisman.)

Look, you can like the later seasons of Ren and Stimpy better, you can sympathize with Nick for firing John, but I can't imagine why anybody in their right mind would respect Nick for doing something so uncreative, against artistic integrity, and backhanded. You actually support leaving his name OFF the credits? I mean, what?

Even if this was in regards to a show I HATED I would be absolutely disgusted with the behavior of the network...



Anyone can make a show with excessive adult content, but true creativity would be to make an outstanding show without the content.

Classic Ren & Stimpy- Adult bits are handled subtly thus requiring the viewer to pick it up on their own.

AP Ren & Stimpy- Constantly hammers you over the head saying, "Our cartoon has more content, our cartoon has more content".


Yes, yes, that is the common argument I've seen over and over.

I don't know why I have to repeat myself -- All I said in my last post is that animation wise, the new episodes are mindblowing. "Anyone can make a show..." etc, yes, but not everyone can make it look and feel like THAT.

John K wanted to put some gross jokes in his shows, that doesn't mean he doesn't have "true creativity." Jeez, he's like a compulsive cartoonist, have you ever seen his sketchbook stuff, or restaurant napkin drawings? He's bursting with ideas. You may not LIKE the ideas, but you can't accuse him of not having creativity.



Nothing wrong with liking him, but hero worship (which I perceive your views on him) is unhealthy. Sure you've made a critical statement or two, but it's like with you, no matter what he does wrong, he's the reigning Champ in your eyes..


That's kind of insulting. I'm not "hero worshipping." I'm a fan, I love his work. Sometimes he lets me down -- as I've stated already. I'm REALISTIC about it. I'm not some drooling idiot. Please don't imply otherwise, I find it offensive.

The only reason I joined this thread in the first place is because people were claiming things that WEREN'T TRUE and then getting MAD at John K for it. That's a lot worse than "hero worshipping." It's just blind internet bashing.

I don't think he's the "reigning champ." I think he's a funny guy, good writer (blog) and a great animator. He's clearly not reigning in any sense of the word, he can't even get a TV show on the air. But I admire him a lot and think he has a very unique vision. No other cartoons have made me felt quite the way his does.

AND his blog is great if ONLY for the historical tidbits about old cartoons. I've learned so much about all the old Warner Bros animators, how they worked, etc, and I'm glad I did! His blog is for ANYBODY who's interested in cartoons or animating. Geez, he even gives free animation lessons and will critique your work for you (and NOT be "nice" about it, but be logical and constructive, which is what a real teacher should do, not like how it is in art school...) Go ahead, read what he wrote to "students" in the comments. He even goes to people's blogs and gives advice. Some good, some bad, always constructive and always supportive.

His personality is harshly exaggerated in this thread...


-Jordan

[Zorak Masaki]

The thing is that he has weird ideas of what good cartoons are. For example, ive never seen him say a good thing about the simpsons, yet he used beavis and butthead as an example of good cartoony characters. As good as B & B is, its a classic example of limited animation (recycled animation, characters with poorly drawn facial features, etc) while the simpsons have done episodes which are incredible to look at (ie, the mysterious voyage of homer, the first treehouse of horror ep, etc).

[Antiyonder]

You...respect Nick for stealing somebody's creation? Do you respect the Goliath Chronicles too (to continue the weird comparison to Greg Weisman.)

Look, you can like the later seasons of Ren and Stimpy better, you can sympathize with Nick for firing John, but I can't imagine why anybody in their right mind would respect Nick for doing something so uncreative, against artistic integrity, and backhanded. You actually support leaving his name OFF the credits? I mean, what?

Even if this was in regards to a show I HATED I would be absolutely disgusted with the behavior of the network...

I respect them for not allowing their employees to slack off (i.e. missing deadlines). As I've stated in the paragraph above it, Marvel allowed for Kevin Smith to miss his deadlines when he was doing the miniseries Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil Men Do, simply because of his popularity.

Yes, yes, that is the common argument I've seen over and over.

I don't know why I have to repeat myself -- All I said in my last post is that animation wise, the new episodes are mindblowing. "Anyone can make a show..." etc, yes, but not everyone can make it look and feel like THAT.

John K wanted to put some gross jokes in his shows, that doesn't mean he doesn't have "true creativity." Jeez, he's like a compulsive cartoonist, have you ever seen his sketchbook stuff, or restaurant napkin drawings? He's bursting with ideas. You may not LIKE the ideas, but you can't accuse him of not having creativity.

So he may be creative, but the example I provided doesn't seem like he exercised the creativity.

[Jeff Harris]

Ok, calm down.

...Read his blog. He was the one that had meetings with the head of Cartoon Network, spearheaded the idea of "Cartoon Cartoon", where all these new creator driven shows battle it out to see who gets a series. He wouldn't exactly be credited in the specific shows. He was more like a network consultant for the whole thing. "Battle it out?"

First of all, it's his blog and he could say whatever he wanted to. John K. could say he was the first man on the moon. Is it true? No, but if that's what he wanted to say, he could say it.

John K. claims he created the concept of Nicktoons also. He claims that he created the first Flash cartoon, therefore being responsible for the medium he loathes with a passion. It wouldn't surprise me if one day he claims to be the love child of Bob Clampett after the actor had a drunken trist with a Canadian lass while on holiday. Not to say he would claim that, but it wouldn't surprise me.

That said, I think Fred Seibert deserves a lot of the credit behind the What A Cartoon project. WAC! was a part of CN from the beginning, but the first works didn't come out until 1994. Seibert was also one of the engineers of the creation of Nicktoons, as was Betty Cohen, who later became the founder of Cartoon Network. She would have served in that position anyway if Viacom had been successful in buying Hanna-Barbera Productions instead of Turner Broadcasting. When that acquisition failed, Nick decided to make their own cartoons. Seibert did a lot of things at Nickelodeon before creating Frederator, including being a part of the team behind the mid-80s relaunch (including the creation of the ameoba logo and the kids-first mantra and the general concept of Nick at Nite), but John K. often paints him as a no-talent hack with no brains and steals from others.

You probably won't hear how John K. stole Ralph Bakshi's slot as being one of the first Nickelodeon original series creators. Tattertown was supposed to be a series, but, well, John K., using many of Bakshi's artists, created and sold Ren and Stimpy, and the rest is history. Ren and Stimpy became household names while Tattertown became a Christmas special rarely seeing the light of day again.

[Marinite]

I respect them for not allowing their employees to slack off (i.e. missing deadlines). As I've stated in the paragraph above it, Marvel allowed for Kevin Smith to miss his deadlines when he was doing the miniseries Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil Men Do, simply because of his popularity. Agreed. A lot of the time fans will side with the creator of their favorite show when they get "fired" by a big company, but seldom care about why they were fired. If John K really took that long and slacked off, then Nickelodeon was totally justified in firing him. I wish more companies would do that (going off Marvel and Kevin Smith, Marvel and Joss Whedon, who is also notorious for his delays on Runaways)

[Jave]

Ok, calm down.

...Read his blog. He was the one that had meetings with the head of Cartoon Network, spearheaded the idea of "Cartoon Cartoon", where all these new creator driven shows battle it out to see who gets a series. He wouldn't exactly be credited in the specific shows. He was more like a network consultant for the whole thing. Got a more direct link? I'm not in the mood to scout through hundreds of blog posts. Besides, I take all facts he publish in his blog with a grain of salt. He has lied before.

Anyway, can you confirm your statements by someone who is not John K?

[Jeff Harris]

Anyway, can you confirm your statements by someone who is not John K?Stephen Worth, Amid Amidi, and any other Spumco acolyte don't count.

[BrendaBat]

In that interview with Michael Barrier that someone posted earlier, Kricfalusi comes across as an arrogant jerk who believes that all animation that doesn't ape the zany Clampett-style that he uses is cold and generic. For goodness sake, he even calls Carl Barks a hack! :eek:

You'd think a professional like him would understand that different animation styles complement different shows. For example, his designs and animation style were perfect for an offbeat show like Ren and Stimpy, but would be an annoying distraction in shows like Gargoyles or Avatar.


However, after reading that article, I think that Kricfalusi missed his true calling. He should have ditched the TV animation business a long time ago and taken a job as a full-time art and/or animation teacher instead. Art teachers are notorious for being offbeat kooks anyway, so it's perfect for him! :p
Seriously though, some of the exercises he talked about (like the Elmer Fudd one) sounded fun and interesting and I think I might try them out myself later. Being hounded to NEVER EVER EVER draw the same expression twice would be extremely stressful if I were animating on a long running show like Ren and Stimpy. But it would be the perfect exercise for a class of budding young cartoonists.


Originally posted by Jordo
I still go by the fact that the "official" reason he got fired was missing deadlines -- But it was a BAD relationship with Nickelodeon. They did NOT trust him, they wanted EVERYTHING in his story outlines changed (he did a detailed blog post about this), and they were scared of him.

..............

I think the Adult Ren and Stimpy episodes are powerhouses of intricate, creative, and mind blowing animation -- regardless of whether you find the content funny or not (I do, for the most part.)

There is no question that Kricfalusi is very talented (at least where drawing and animation are concerned). I personally have a VERY low tolerance for gross out humor. But I still liked the designs and whacked out animation in Ren and Stimpy even though the gross gags made it hard for me to sit through an episode sometimes.

However, talent doesn't mean much if you can't get over yourself and effectively work with deadlines and other people. Even if he really was an innocent employee who was royally and unfairly screwed by Nickeloadeon, I don't see how someone with his talent and fame could have such a hard time getting steady work unless he really is the pain in the ass he's made out to be.

[Jordo]

Maybe I should just give up...You're all a lot more hotheaded about this stuff then John K could ever be...

Forgive my dumb use of internet quoting here:

"Battle it out?"


? Not sure I understand the question here. The whole What A Cartoon thing was put across as a fun sort of contest where the audience votes on which shorts they liked best, which would then turn into series. Dexter's Lab was the winner, I believe. So yes -- "battle it out."

Look, if you're just going to sit there and claim John K is LYING, what can I do? I have no reason to believe he's lying. Why on earth would he? Why would you just assume the negative? Maybe he's lied...but I don't know that and YOU certainly don't know that.


"If John K really took that long and slacked off, then Nickelodeon was totally justified in firing him. "

Uhhh...John K was doing anything but "slacking off" while working on Ren and Stimpy. Hey, why don't YOU start your OWN animation company from SCRATCH, create an entire new series, and try to NOT use model sheets or stock expressions, poses, or backgrounds, in EVERY single scene? Oh and as a director, be involved in every single aspect of production for every single cartoon.

If he missed deadlines I'm sure it was cause these cartoons were HARDER TO MAKE then Nickelodeon realized. Hey, I was a frustrated viewer who was getting really sick of all the reruns. I wanted new cartoons too. And maybe they should have worked something out, or at the WORST fire him and cancel the show. Anything but make the show without him. And time has pretty much proved who was right in this case...The Games episodes of Ren and Stimpy are absolutely awful and forgettable. They're all so flat and lack any humanity, it's incredibly simplified and generic. Not a "Stimpy's Invention" among them, because they couldn't be allowed to attempt something that ambitious.


"He has lied before."


He...has? Do you have an...example?

And I'm not in the mood to scout through hundreds of blog posts EITHER. I DO have a day job ya know. But it's all there. I'm sure a smart google search can find it.

My point is, rather than posting things that aren't true, and getting enraged about it, you could check stuff out FIRST. THEN get enraged.


"In that interview with Michael Barrier that someone posted earlier, Kricfalusi comes across as an arrogant jerk who believes that all animation that doesn't ape the zany Clampett-style that he uses is cold and generic."


He says NOTHING like that!

He loves Clampett for a LOT of reasons, especially SUBTLETY of expression. It's not all "zany" that he cares about. What he urges the most is that cartoons have some sort of HUMANITY, some organic feelings or inspiration, as opposed to being cold and generic...Unless you like that sort of thing? How could anybody support cold and generic?


This also goes back to Beavis and Butt-head, as somebody mentioned. He loves the show because (and I agree) it captures something. The characters feel real, and it's funny as hell. I'm sure he's not impressed by the animation on a technical level, but as I said earlier on -- John K critically and analytically picks positives and negatives about the shows he talks about.

He has rarely said an entire thing is bad or good, he talks about the specifics within it. You know, like somebody who's worked in cartoons for years would.


-Jordan

[Zorak Masaki]

Did he ever explain that sitcom ep of APC at least or whatever that was supposed to be? I have no idea WHY he did that.

[Jeff Harris]

Maybe I should just give up...You're all a lot more hotheaded about this stuff then John K could ever be...Don't give up. Conversation should always be this colorful. It's just some people aren't as open-minded as others. I believed the propaganda many moons ago until I learned the truth. You may not agree with what people say around here, just as people won't agree with everything you say. It's that spirited conversation that make places like this worth checking out.

I'll continue.

"Battle it out?" Not sure I understand the question here. The whole What A Cartoon thing was put across as a fun sort of contest where the audience votes on which shorts they liked best, which would then turn into series. Dexter's Lab was the winner, I believe. So yes -- "battle it out."You're saying that John K. created the concept of audience picking the shows they wanted to air? First of all, John K. was at Nickelodeon when Cartoon Network began the WAC! project. Yes, he had friends and fans at Hanna-Barbera, but he didn't create the project. THAT was Fred Seibert's creation. He was the head of HB and devised the concept there. Cartoon Network went ahead with the participation aspect of that after the first two cycles were completed. Dexter's Laboratory, Johnny Bravo, and Cow and Chicken in No Smoking were the first three to get green-lit as series. The fourth place pilot, The Powerpuff Girls in Meat Fuzzy Lumpkins, became a series later on.

Look, if you're just going to sit there and claim John K is LYING, what can I do? I have no reason to believe he's lying. Why on earth would he? Why would you just assume the negative? Maybe he's lied...but I don't know that and YOU certainly don't know that.Well, he claimed to have created Mr. Hankey the Christmas Poo and Cow and Chicken. I do know those aren't true. Why someone would lie? Well, to build up a legend. People lie all the time to make themselves look good.

"If John K really took that long and slacked off, then Nickelodeon was totally justified in firing him. "

Uhhh...John K was doing anything but "slacking off" while working on Ren and Stimpy. Hey, why don't YOU start your OWN animation company from SCRATCH, create an entire new series, and try to NOT use model sheets or stock expressions, poses, or backgrounds, in EVERY single scene? Oh and as a director, be involved in every single aspect of production for every single cartoon.

If he missed deadlines I'm sure it was cause these cartoons were HARDER TO MAKE then Nickelodeon realized. Hey, I was a frustrated viewer who was getting really sick of all the reruns. I wanted new cartoons too. And maybe they should have worked something out, or at the WORST fire him and cancel the show. Anything but make the show without him. And time has pretty much proved who was right in this case...The Games episodes of Ren and Stimpy are absolutely awful and forgettable. They're all so flat and lack any humanity, it's incredibly simplified and generic. Not a "Stimpy's Invention" among them, because they couldn't be allowed to attempt something that ambitious.You know, Klasky-Csupo and Jumbo Pictures didn't use stock expressions or poses in every episode either, and they came out in time. They weren't behind nor were the creators slacking on them. John K. wasn't the sole director on the series. There were others. Truth be told, there were a lot of in-fighting within Spumco, and not every story was made into episodes. Most of them weren't written by John K.

There were a couple of good Games episodes of R&S, by the way. Some carried the violence to strange extremes and others were just plain freaky. There were bad Spumco episodes of R&S as well, but people fail to acknowledge those when talking about the series.

"In that interview with Michael Barrier that someone posted earlier, Kricfalusi comes across as an arrogant jerk who believes that all animation that doesn't ape the zany Clampett-style that he uses is cold and generic."

He says NOTHING like that! BrendaBat didn't say that he SAID that. BB said that he "comes across as an arrogant jerk who believes that all animation that doesn't ape the zany Clampett-style that he uses is cold and generic," and if you read his blog, you'll see that this hypothesis is evident in nearly every post. He feels shows like Samurai Jack, Dexter's Laboratory, Batman: The Animated Series, The Simpsons, and anything made after 1962 and before 1988 that he didn't have a personal interest in and everything after 1993 with the exception of Mike Judge's works are pieces of drek. Speaking of which . . .

This also goes back to Beavis and Butt-head, as somebody mentioned. He loves the show because (and I agree) it captures something. The characters feel real, and it's funny as hell.But does it greatly utilize the medium at hand? The show uses so many shortcuts (most of the dialogue was head-only shots) and stock poses in every episode, and yet because it seems "real," it can get away with it limitedness. But here's the kicker.

Satoshi Kon, creator of films like Perfect Blue, Tokyo Godfathers, Millennium Actress, and Paprika and the series Paranoid Agent, often uses characters that feel real and human qualities. But the Spumco acolytes aren't fans, often criticizing him for "not fully utilizing the medium of animation," saying they could easily be done in live-action. So, Satoshi couldn't be realistic, but King of the Hill could get away with it? That's a double standard.

John K. is a great creator and deserves all the accolades he gets. But he's not the authority god of the medium as he projects himself as at times. He feels that everything that isn't up to his standards is beneath him, which is virtually everything not made by him nor friends of his, and that kind of elitism is something the animation industry doesn't need, especially now.

[John Dorian]

While we're on Cow and Chicken, David Feiss worked on Ren and Stimpy on the first two years.

[Jordo]

I'll continue.

You're saying that John K. created the concept of audience picking the shows they wanted to air?


No, no, no. I'm not saying that. I'm unsure of his involvement, I haven't read about it in a while. I just know he was a consultant on the whole thing, and he claims to have had a big influence on the outcome.


Well, he claimed to have created Mr. Hankey the Christmas Poo and Cow and Chicken. I do know those aren't true. Why someone would lie? Well, to build up a legend. People lie all the time to make themselves look good.


I should say I completely disagree with John K about the Mr. Hankey thing. I was VERY disappointed in that whole tirade.

He doesn't claim he CREATED him, he claims Trey and Matt ripped off the "idea" of talking Poo as a happy cartoon character from him. Trey Parker said the Mr. Hankey idea goes back to his childhood. This is one instance where John K annoyed me. But it's not a "lie", it's just a lame accusation.

He says he created Cow and Chicken? When? Where? Do you have a quote? He's good friends with Dave Feiss, the creator, and has given him tons of props on his blog, and said he is a big FAN of Cow and Chicken, and never once claimed to have created it. Don't know anything about this but I've seen nothing but good vibes between him and Feiss.

Are you sure you know what this is about?


You know, Klasky-Csupo and Jumbo Pictures didn't use stock expressions or poses in every episode either, and they came out in time. They weren't behind nor were the creators slacking on them. John K. wasn't the sole director on the series. There were others. Truth be told, there were a lot of in-fighting within Spumco, and not every story was made into episodes. Most of them weren't written by John K.


Ok, do NOT compare Ren and Stimpy's visual style to DOUG. Because there is no contest. I was as much of a Doug fan as anybody but it is BLAND bland bland and repetitive looking compared to Ren and Stimpy. I'm not in the industry but I can take bets on which show must have been harder to produce.

By the way I didn't say every "episode", I said every SCENE. Or every FRAME if you want to be really specific!

"Most" Ren and Stimpy episodes did indeed come from John K and his crew. He is not the sole credited writer on many of them, but he was head of the series and nothing slipped by him. Sometimes he'd come up with an idea and tell other people to work it out, etc. But it was his show...

And you may notice the most ambitious, "classic" and beautifully animated episodes WERE written and directed by them. He needed more time to make them because he wanted them to be little masterpieces, not just "filler." Nickelodeon could care LESS, and often hated all of these episodes (like Stimpy's Invention, Sven Hoek, etc)



There were a couple of good Games episodes of R&S, by the way. Some carried the violence to strange extremes and others were just plain freaky. There were bad Spumco episodes of R&S as well, but people fail to acknowledge those when talking about the series.


Errr...what good Games episodes? I can't think of any. The only decent ones were from the first Games seasons, when episodes were started at Spumco and finished at Games.

There were some mediocre episodes of Spumco Ren and Stimpy, but (and this is my opinion by the way), they ALL feel very special and unique to me. ALL of them. I can't say that about any of the Games episodes.



BrendaBat didn't say that he SAID that. BB said that he "comes across as an arrogant jerk who believes that all animation that doesn't ape the zany Clampett-style that he uses is cold and generic," and if you read his blog, you'll see that this hypothesis is evident in nearly every post. He feels shows like Samurai Jack, Dexter's Laboratory, Batman: The Animated Series, The Simpsons, and anything made after 1962 and before 1988 that he didn't have a personal interest in and everything after 1993 with the exception of Mike Judge's works are pieces of drek.


?

John K has complimented Samurai Jack and Dexter's Lab in his blog, has never ONCE called it "pieces of drek."

Again -- if you don't actually KNOW John K's opinion on something, it's best not to just declare it. Because you may be wrong. And you're harshly and crudely exaggerating things he may have said.

John K is friends with Bruce Timm and I believe I've heard him speak positively of his work. There's a great drawing of Kirk Douglass that John K drew and Bruce Timm "beautifully" painted (quote from his blog.)

I know John K is not a superhero fan in general, so maybe Batman doesn't appeal to him in a few ways. I have never seen him bad mouth the show. He mentioned briefly in a post that he doesn't like some of the stiff poses. Hell, neither do I. So what? That's one tiny aspect of it. When somebody commented with a great youtube clip of "Justice League", John K was impressed.

Being that the Simpsons is like my favorite thing in the world, my heart aches when I see John K use it as an example of poor animation -- but hell, he's RIGHT about some things. The garish background colors, the poses, etc...Personally it doesn't bother me, but I can at least understand his view point. He has NEVER said it's a bad show, and as far as I've heard he admires Matt Groening and has had a friendly relationship with him.



John K. is a great creator and deserves all the accolades he gets. But he's not the authority god of the medium as he projects himself as at times. He feels that everything that isn't up to his standards is beneath him, which is virtually everything not made by him nor friends of his, and that kind of elitism is something the animation industry doesn't need, especially now.


No...he has a BLOG. He's just another guy with a blog posting his "loudmouth opinions" (his quote.) Why does this bother so many people? What do you think you do on the internet?

He doesn't CLAIM to be a god or anything. He cares deeply (too deeply?) about cartoons and loves talking about it, positives and negatives. Why does this bother you? His opinions may differ from yours, that doesn't make him a bad person. I mean his blog is for the most part educational and enthusiastic, just look at the most recent post.



Jordan

[Jave]

"He has lied before."

He...has? Do you have an...example?"Ren & Stimpy on DVD... UNCUT!"

Errr...what good Games episodes? I can't think of any. The only decent ones were from the first Games seasons, when episodes were started at Spumco and finished at Games.My favorite R&S episode is a three-way tie between "Space Madness", "Stimpy's Invention" and... "An Abe Divided". I know tons of people love that one.

He doesn't claim he CREATED him, he claims Trey and Matt ripped off the "idea" of talking Poo as a happy cartoon character from him. Trey Parker said the Mr. Hankey idea goes back to his childhood. This is one instance where John K annoyed me. But it's not a "lie", it's just a lame accusation.Technically, Akira Toriyama did it years before. That makes it even lamer.

Being that the Simpsons is like my favorite thing in the world, my heart aches when I see John K use it as an example of poor animation -- but hell, he's RIGHT about some things. The garish background colors, the poses, etc...Personally it doesn't bother me, but I can at least understand his view point. He has NEVER said it's a bad show, and as far as I've heard he admires Matt Groening and has had a friendly relationship with him.Don't in one of the Simpsons DVD commentaries, they comment on how John K was usually late in delivering episodes? I believe it was in "Brother from the Same Planet", when the R&S cameo shows up.

"Did we get a Spumco animator to do this scene?"
"Nah. He'll probably still be working on it."

It was likely done in jest, but it shows Spumco had a reputation.

By the way I didn't say every "episode", I said every SCENE. Or every FRAME if you want to be really specific!Every episode I can believe. Every scene is passable. But every FRAME? I'm watching several episodes and I see these scenes where the characters stay still for seconds. That can't be a different model sheet per frame.

And seriously, drawing a different expression at the rate of 24 per second is enough to drive anyone crazy.

[HG Revolution]

BrendaBat didn't say that he SAID that. BB said that he "comes across as an arrogant jerk who believes that all animation that doesn't ape the zany Clampett-style that he uses is cold and generic," and if you read his blog, you'll see that this hypothesis is evident in nearly every post. He feels shows like Samurai Jack, Dexter's Laboratory, Batman: The Animated Series, The Simpsons, and anything made after 1962 and before 1988 that he didn't have a personal interest in and everything after 1993 with the exception of Mike Judge's works are pieces of drek.

He's praised Samurai Jack and Dexter's Laboratory several times (remember, Spumco did animate an episode of Dexter). I'm not sure how he feels about Batman and Simpsons, though, except for him being friends with Bruce Timm.

[Speedy Boris]

And you may notice the most ambitious, "classic" and beautifully animated episodes WERE written and directed by them. "Stimpy's Fan Club" was boarded/directed by Pete Avanzino, and that's one of my favorite episodes. (Though to be fair, John K. did help write it)
Errr...what good Games episodes? I can't think of any. Spumco set the bar pretty high on some of their episodes. Thus the Games episodes are going to look bad by comparison. But there are still quality episodes from that era, like "An Abe Divided" and "Ren's Bitter Half", some good episodes that Spumco started and Games finished like "Stimpy's Cartoon Show" and "A Yard Too Far", not to mention plenty of personal favorites that I don't feel like listing.

Games was basically a reverse of Spumco. Spumco took a long time to make some episodes but many were quality. Games stuck to production schedule but the end results were mixed, and lacking inspiration in many cases. This was especially true in seasons 4 and 5, when the hurried production schedule meant bland rush jobs like "Cheese Rush Days" and "Galoot Wranglers". Heck, on a few episodes they had to outsource boards/layouts to independent companies like "Character Builders", that's how swamped they were.

That said, I'm glad Bob Camp stayed on board with Games. He's a highly talented artist and arguably kept as much of the visual creativity as he possibly could under the circumstances.

[DarthGonzo]

(remember, Spumco did animate an episode of Dexter)

What? When?

[Jeff Harris]

No, no, no. I'm not saying that. I'm unsure of his involvement, I haven't read about it in a while. I just know he was a consultant on the whole thing, and he claims to have had a big influence on the outcome.I know Fred Seibert, and he says otherwise.

I should say I completely disagree with John K about the Mr. Hankey thing. I was VERY disappointed in that whole tirade.

He doesn't claim he CREATED him, he claims Trey and Matt ripped off the "idea" of talking Poo as a happy cartoon character from him. Trey Parker said the Mr. Hankey idea goes back to his childhood. This is one instance where John K annoyed me. But it's not a "lie", it's just a lame accusation.Okay, it's a lame accusation. The idea of happy, talking Poo wasn't an original idea. It's been in Japan since the mid-70s at the earliest. Just saying.

He says he created Cow and Chicken? When? Where? Do you have a quote? He's good friends with Dave Feiss, the creator, and has given him tons of props on his blog, and said he is a big FAN of Cow and Chicken, and never once claimed to have created it. Don't know anything about this but I've seen nothing but good vibes between him and Feiss.

Are you sure you know what this is about?I read somewhere in Animation Magazine (or was it AWN?) that he claimed that Dave Feiss ripped off the concept of Cow and Chicken while he was at Spumco a few years ago. Don't remember the exact article in question, but since other people read it, it's proof I didn't imagine the article.

Ok, do NOT compare Ren and Stimpy's visual style to DOUG. Because there is no contest. I was as much of a Doug fan as anybody but it is BLAND bland bland and repetitive looking compared to Ren and Stimpy. I'm not in the industry but I can take bets on which show must have been harder to produce.I'm not comparing the visual styles of both shows (Doug's as whitebread as you can get, and that was even before Disney got their hands on it), just the reliability of both shows. Both had the same amount of time to produce a final product, and out of the three original Nicktoons, Ren and Stimpy was the latest. Not because they took their time, but because they slacked on the end products, working on other side projects and other things not related to Ren and Stimpy. They were plotting He-Hog, Ripping Friends, and Jimmy the Idiot Boy when they should have been working on Ren and Stimpy.

By the way I didn't say every "episode", I said every SCENE. Or every FRAME if you want to be really specific!Of course every frame has to be different. Otherwise, it's a still picture. Still, are you saying that there was no planning at Ren and Stimpy at all? No point of reference, no model sheet, no continuity between the looks of the series? Wow . . . if that's true, that's kind of, um, dumb. No wonder it took so long. I could understand if it was the traditional studio format with different artists and different directors with their own interpretations of the same characters, ala Schlesinger Studios, but this was pretty much an operation overseen by one guy working on the title and constantly changing the look of the series. Some call it innovative, but for the medium of television, it's borderline foolish.

"Most" Ren and Stimpy episodes did indeed come from John K and his crew. He is not the sole credited writer on many of them, but he was head of the series and nothing slipped by him. Sometimes he'd come up with an idea and tell other people to work it out, etc. But it was his show.For starters, the moment he sold the series to Nickelodeon, it became Nickelodeon's show, not his. He worked for Nickelodeon. Nickelodeon didn't work for him. I know he wasn't the sole credited writer on the series. Bob Camp wrote a lot of them too, including co-writing some of the classics like Stimpy's Invention and Space Madness. When he became the show runner after John K's firing, John K. mocked and crucified him in every open venue he had, saying he "stole" his show from under him. The name of Bob Camp is still sneered upon even after all these years.
John K has complimented Samurai Jack and Dexter's Lab in his blog, has never ONCE called it "pieces of drek." Again -- if you don't actually KNOW John K's opinion on something, it's best not to just declare it. Because you may be wrong. And you're harshly and crudely exaggerating things he may have said.I do KNOW that he has criticized the "angular, unnatural" designs of those shows, mostly with him complaining in the end that they're "uncartoony."

No...he has a BLOG. He's just another guy with a blog posting his "loudmouth opinions" (his quote.) Why does this bother so many people? What do you think you do on the internet?Oh, I know I'm a loudmouth know-it-all. I'm a rabblerouser, and I freely admit that. But I do respect other people's opinions and attitudes about certain things and I try to find the good in all forms of animation unlike John K., who pretty much hates everything out there not made by his friends.

He doesn't CLAIM to be a god or anything. He cares deeply (too deeply?) about cartoons and loves talking about it, positives and negatives.He's the Ann Coulter of animation. He spews nothing but negativity about the medium. There's nothing good out there in his eyes aside from the stuff he and his friends does. He may not claim to be a god, but he has enough followers that give him that deitic aura, treating every word he says as the gospel truth. It feeds his ego and creates a sense of elitism.

Why does this bother you? His opinions may differ from yours, that doesn't make him a bad person. I value his opinions, but often, he comes across as a, hmm, let's say "richard" to avoid the censors. I know I could be wrong and am open to change. I also know people disagree with what I say on the sites, and I'm okay with that. I welcome discussion. John K. doesn't care to think about what other people tell him, even if they are right.

It's arrogance and egotism that makes him a "bad person." Yeah, he could be a great guy to have a few brews with, but John K. shows too much arrogance on his part. I've never really seen him say anything CONSTRUCTIVE of today's animation industry, and if I'm wrong, please let me know.

See, I'm not a bad person.

[Zorak Masaki]

I





It's arrogance and egotism that makes him a "bad person." Yeah, he could be a great guy to have a few brews with, but John K. shows too much arrogance on his part. I've never really seen him say anything CONSTRUCTIVE of today's animation industry, and if I'm wrong, please let me know.

See, I'm not a bad person.

Well, in his defense, he did mention that he saw an episode of courage the cowardly dog and enjoyed it, so its not like he's TOTALLY against modern-day animation. Still, he should just put his product out there and let it speak for itself (who cares if a network wont pick it up? This is the youtube generation, just put a show on there and watch the popularity grow).

[Coolboyman]

Everyone stop, it shouldn't matter WHAT he thinks of something. You should make a cartoon based on what you want it to be, and like what you like, not follow everything he likes or hates. Seriously I've read his blog, and some of the people commenting on his posts are just flat out pathetic, who agree with everything he says no matter what.

[Henk55]

I do KNOW that he has criticized the "angular, unnatural" designs of those shows, mostly with him complaining in the end that they're "uncartoony."


He never called them uncartoony. See, he LOVES Genndy Tartakovsky cartoons, and loves Powerpuff Girls too. Loves the characters, storytelling, collors etc. He loves Powerpuff Girls design and loved the cuteness, and he complimented Foster's designs too.

He critisized the animation in them, and the drawings and how they compose, so what? I notice it often, in Samurai Jack, that, despite the fabulous colors and the cool graphic style, drawings are just melting over. I don't have much problem with it, but it would look much better if it was drawn solidly.

On the "mindless followers," I'm just annoyed when some people there rant up, for example, how Family Guy sucks. It's just not the point of the blog, far away from that.

Well, i don't feel like getting down to every other John K controversy around here, so I'll just say I'm extremely grateful that he and his blog exists.

[Darklordavaitor]

There were bad Spumco episodes of R&S as well, but people fail to acknowledge those when talking about the series.

Exactly. Remember "Black Hole"?

I'd say if this thread hasn't already, it's bound to run it's course soon.

[Speedy Boris]

Exactly. Remember "Black Hole"? I like Black Hole, actually. Its animation is subpar for Spumco but it has some great gags.
-"This is where ALL the left socks in the universe go!"
-"Can't you read?! Exact change ONLY!"
-"Implode? What's that?" "Oh sorry captain, you're a layman, aren't you?"

[DrTooth]

Everyone stop, it shouldn't matter WHAT he thinks of something. You should make a cartoon based on what you want it to be, and like what you like, not follow everything he likes or hates. Seriously I've read his blog, and some of the people commenting on his posts are just flat out pathetic, who agree with everything he says no matter what.

Couldn't have put it better myself. There are MANY styles out there, and I can agree with his theories in some aspects. The toy related cartoons of the 80's were a thorn in the side of animators and cartoonists. He worked a lot of crummy jobs before he got his shots. And sadly, those crummy jobs lasted longer than most of the shots. Only thing I'd say is he should have reluctantly adheared to a lot of things, so some of his shows would go on a full season.

So he calls everyone besided himself and his friends "hacks" because their stuff doesn't look like his designs, or the stuff he watched when he was a kid. That's his opinion, not fact. I agree. That sort of style works for wacky cartoons, but if you need realistic animation (the hardest of all, I think if you do it right), or something a little more serious, it doesn't have to look like it.

he can continue to bash everyone and claim that someone stole his ideas, fine. He didn't make any friends in the animation industry, and no one wants to hire him for a continual basis. I still don't see why they don't work harder around it and make their own webtoons again. Maybe he can put his angry energy into that instead.

[Movie06]

he can continue to bash everyone and claim that someone stole his ideas, fine. He didn't make any friends in the animation industry, and no one wants to hire him for a continual basis. I still don't see why they don't work harder around it and make their own webtoons again. Maybe he can put his angry energy into that instead.

Well John K is arrogant, that's why no one wants to hire him, he's this guy who loves to say "I'm the best, I'm the king, you're all peasants and morons in my eyes."

[DrTooth]

Well John K is arrogant, that's why no one wants to hire him, he's this guy who loves to say "I'm the best, I'm the king, you're all peasants and morons in my eyes."

Arrogant, and missing deadlines. Not a pretty sight. I love his style, and I can't say that he didn't influence me on some level, but a little modesty and reluctant butt kissing goes a long way. Does he think he's George Lucas or something?

And even if no one wants to hire him, I'm sure there's some way he can keep his animations independant.

[Movie06]

Arrogant, and missing deadlines. Not a pretty sight. I love his style, and I can't say that he didn't influence me on some level, but a little modesty and reluctant butt kissing goes a long way. Does he think he's George Lucas or something?

I like his style too but I just don't like his attitude. I mean picture this: He meets Bruce Timm, he sees his DCAU shows and hates them and one day he comes up to Bruce says "That's not how your animation should go, it should be more like mine, moron."

And yeah, he probably thinks he's George Lucas or he mostly thinks he's Bob Clampett.

[Racattack!Force]

And yeah, he probably thinks he's George Lucas or he mostly thinks he's Bob Clampett.
Since I think he's trying to continue the legacy of his work, John K. thinks he's the new Bob Clampett. Clampett is the guy's idol after all. I personally don't see anything that special about his cartoons, but that's just me. The photo stills of a scene are a lot more intertaining. :shrug:

[Jordo]

::bowing out of this thread:::

This is getting too exhausting.

While some have made fair posts about John K and have actually depicted him the way he IS, too many people overnight made an onslaught of posts saying the same things that drove me to this thread in the first place -- "he thinks he's god" "he hates every cartoon" "spumco was slacking off."

These are untrue and ridiculous accusations...I've already said all I could in trying to defend the man. You can keep on bashing him and exaggerating all the negatives of his personality. What fun.

I'll try to respond to a few points, but the quoting thing is too intensive.

-- What I meant by every scene (the "every frame" comment was an exaggeration for light hearted effect, it was taken too seriously), is that John K prides himself on creating new expressions to match the characters emotions (or the voice recording) in that specific moment. This was unlike all the other shows, like Doug or Rugrats, which may have had this occasionally but generally relied on stock expressions and model sheets.

Ren and Stimpy are such greatly designed characters that you feel like you could do anything with their faces, and that's what the show was like! It's so fun to watch...Even cheaper or more rushed episodes like "Black Hole" (which I like) has some hilarious and weird facial expressions/poses.

I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS HOW EVERY CARTOON SHOULD BE. I'm saying this is what was special to me about John K's work.

---Yeah, his post about Samurai Jack had BOTH praise and criticism for it. Can this sink in for some of you people? He's VERY analytical, and maybe he's got a thick head but he's rarely just going to say that everything is 100% perfect, especially with his own work (he's very criticial of his own cartoons, IF YOU CAN BELIEVE IT). You can LIKE something and still find flaws in it, or things that bother you. I LIKE John K but sometimes he bothers me. I like internet forums but often they frustrate me.

What was said is that he calls all modern cartoons "drek"...THAT IS COMPLETELY UNTRUE. Everything you people are saying is just NOT TRUE, and so simplified and disregarding his actual opinions or his tireless effort that he puts into his blog (seriously, he has done a massive amount of work on that thing) that this whole discussion is very frustrating for me.

AND unlike what somebody here claimed -- he actually HAS changed his opinions due to some of the comments posted on his blog. He's REMARKABLY accessible, he will respond to you, post to your own blog, correspond with you. I'm not saying he's mr. wonderful, and lord knows he's pretty set in his ways, but he LISTENS.

Hell, I've debated him about something on his blog that annoyed me! "Hero worship" indeed!


"They were plotting He-Hog, Ripping Friends, and Jimmy the Idiot Boy when they should have been working on Ren and Stimpy."


How do you know what they "should have" done? It boggles my mind to think that you don't think they worked hard enough on Ren and Stimpy. You weren't there, you don't know WHAT it was like in Spumco studios.

All I'm asking is for people to stop declaring lies and assumptions as facts. Lord hope that nobody googles John K and uses this thread as reference for anything.


Oh and about the decent Games episodes (and that's the highest compliment I can give them) -- A listen to the commentaries reveal that had John K worked on them, they would have been so. much. better. Instant classics!

The episodes Spumco started, for example Untamed World 2 : while it's a funny Games episode, had John K directed it? It would have been a masterpiece! You would have actually FELT those fat lummox's. Instead they are all rush jobs, very very flat, not as effective. I'm not saying there ain't good gags...But the real beautiful Ren and Stimpy's were about more than that.

I'm not trying to argue here, this is just my opinion on the whole Games/Spumco matter.

Oh AND -- Time for a shock. John K's commentary on the Games episodes (wait for it...) has BOTH criticism AND praise. He actually is really impressed and in awe of many aspects of them, and is VERY, VERY fair and not bitter at ALL. He's funny, and constructive, and offers several compliments.

Nothing like the way you all paint him.


-Jordan

[Movie06]

How much money does he pay you to say that?

[Racattack!Force]

Pretty much, this thread went from John's opinion on anime to a "Bash John K. and make silly assumputions thread". :sweat: I see what you are saying Jodro about John K., I have recently sat down and watched a few episodes on Nicktoons Network and have become a fan of the Spumco seasons. Games Animation didn't have the true R&S feel that John K. would have giving it. The thing is, there might have been a way for John to stick with deadlines.

I don't know much about animation, but how about after you finish one season, you quickly start working on story ideas for the next. So if the excutives ordered another season, it would actually be on time. But I don't think John did this (correct me if I'm wrong). If he did do this, I don't see how the episodes could have came in late. It takes a month or three before a network orders decides to order another season of a popular show. By that time, John K. and his crew could have at least planned out and gotten down the visual workings of at least a few of next episodes. Maybe he takes too much time with the episodes, maybe not. I don't really have much of an idea about the behind-the-scenes work of a cartoon.

How much money does he pay you to say that?

A guy can have his opinions. :shrug: By the way, the thread title should be Opinions of John Kricfalusi, since that's what it has become.

[Movie06]

A guy can have his opinions. :shrug:

That was a joke. I didn't really think John K paid him.

[Racattack!Force]

That was a joke. I didn't really think John K paid him.
Yeah, I realize that. :sweat:

[The Irishman]

Would I be correct in assuming that The Simpsons has only ever featured a clip/footage of one other TV show; that being Ren & Stimpy? And I mean actual, proper animation, not the spoof they did of South Park. That would have to count for something, I mean, the most successful animation programme on TV referencing (honouring even) another programme?

[Racattack!Force]

That could possibly count for something, that's true.

[Speedy Boris]

Oh and about the decent Games episodes (and that's the highest compliment I can give them) -- A listen to the commentaries reveal that had John K worked on them, they would have been so. much. better. Instant classics! Yeah, but it wasn't like it would've been that hard to make a better version of "Magical Golden Singing Cheeses". ;) The episodes Spumco started, for example Untamed World 2 : while it's a funny Games episode, had John K directed it? It would have been a masterpiece! You would have actually FELT those fat lummox's. Instead they are all rush jobs, very very flat, not as effective. I'm not saying there ain't good gags...But the real beautiful Ren and Stimpy's were about more than that. I didn't think "Lair of the Lummox" was that bad (as you said, there are some good gags), but it was a bit drawn out. I really didn't see why it had to be ~17 minutes. And I still don't know why they decided to outsource to Wang instead of Rough Draft for that episode. It came out better than Wang's other two outings ("It's a Dog's Life/Egg Yolkeo"), but it still lacked the crispness of Rough Draft's work. Oh AND -- Time for a shock. John K's commentary on the Games episodes (wait for it...) has BOTH criticism AND praise. He actually is really impressed and in awe of many aspects of them, and is VERY, VERY fair and not bitter at ALL. He's funny, and constructive, and offers several compliments. I do have to agree on this. I thought his commentaries on the Games episodes were actually pretty interesting, as he didn't just relentlessly bash the Games episodes (for example, he acknowledged that for the most part, they looked good). At the same time, he criticized why some plots didn't work and how a lot of Games episodes were lacking genuine emotion/context. The commentaries when he was talking to Games directors like Bill Wray were especially interesting. Nothing like the way you all paint him. Hey now, not everyone is hopping on the "John K. hates everything but Clampett and his own work!" bandwagon in this thread. That's generalizing also.

[Maxie Zeus]

Arrogant, and missing deadlines. Not a pretty sight.

I have never understood this kind of attitude. People spend a huge amount of time on these boards complaining about stupid network vice presidents and the way they ruin animation. And then they turn around and attack one of the giants of contemporary animation with criticisms only a network vice president would respect.

I mean picture this: He meets Bruce Timm, he sees his DCAU shows and hates them and one day he comes up to Bruce says "That's not how your animation should go, it should be more like mine, moron."

Do you have a citation for this, or are you just making stuff up?

[CaptainHero]

Spongebob Squarepants has lasted 10 years coming up in 2009, and still is one of the most popular animated series of all time. Ren & Stimpy barely lasted 5 years, and ran out of popularity fast. Honestly, Ren & Stimpy were a fad, they are still remembered by kids who grew up watching them and animation buffs, but they are nowhere near as close as a househould name as Spongebob.

[Antiyonder]

I have never understood this kind of attitude. People spend a huge amount of time on these boards complaining about stupid network vice presidents and the way they ruin animation. And then they turn around and attack one of the giants of contemporary animation with criticisms only a network vice president would respect.

I think it's fair to expect employees to meet their deadline. His early work was good, but that doesn't mean he should pick and choose when he works.

[Maxie Zeus]

I think it's fair to expect employees to meet their deadline. His early work was good, but that doesn't mean he should pick and choose when he works.

If you're thinking like a network vice president, yes, it is fair. Is that really the perspective that you adopt when watching something?

More executive VP thinking:

Spongebob Squarepants has lasted 10 years coming up in 2009, and still is one of the most popular animated series of all time. Ren & Stimpy barely lasted 5 years, and ran out of popularity fast. Honestly, Ren & Stimpy were a fad, they are still remembered by kids who grew up watching them and animation buffs, but they are nowhere near as close as a househould name as Spongebob.

What are you trying to say? That the intrinsic worth of a cartoon is directly proportional to the length of time its been making money for its corporate sponsor? Then Mickey Mouse is seven times better than SpongeBob, and Scooby Doo is three times better. And any show that lasted only a season is by definition close to worthless.

[Movie06]

Do you have a citation for this, or are you just making stuff up?

That was an example, I don't know what he thinks of Bruce Timm, but it's likely John K hates him anyway.

[DarthGonzo]

If you're thinking like a network vice president, yes, it is fair. Is that really the perspective that you adopt when watching something?

If your employer gives you a job to do and you slack off they have every right to fire you. I don't care what you do.

H didn't own the show, he kept his employers waiting for material and was always in conflict with them. So they sacked him.

[CaptainHero]

What are you trying to say? That the intrinsic worth of a cartoon is directly proportional to the length of time its been making money for its corporate sponsor? Then Mickey Mouse is seven times better than SpongeBob, and Scooby Doo is three times better. And any show that lasted only a season is by definition close to worthless.


You misinterpreted what I am saying. I am saying Spongebob has made much more of an impact on pop culture than Ren & Stimpy ever had.

[Maxie Zeus]

That was an example, I don't know what he thinks of Bruce Timm, but it's likely John K hates him anyway.

In other words, you confess: you're just making up crap, on the basis of nothing except your own bigotry and poisonous attitude.

If your employer gives you a job to do and you slack off they have every right to fire you. I don't care what you do.

Again, this is the attitude I would expect of a network suit. Why would a cartoon fan care? Is what possible sense is this a criticism of his cartoons? When watching a movie do you actually say things like "This would be good, except it came in three months late"? Do you actually say "Spielberg would be a good director, but too many of his movies have gone over budget"?

You misinterpreted what I am saying. I am saying Spongebob has made much more of an impact on pop culture than Ren & Stimpy ever had.

This is like arguing that Batman: The Animated Series had less influence on action cartoons than X-Men: Evolution. Compare the style of pre-Ren comedy cartoons with post-Ren cartoons. A tremendous number of them--emphatically including SpongeBob itself--were clearly influenced by the John K. style.

[Movie06]

In other words, you confess: you're just making up crap, on the basis of nothing except your own bigotry and poisonous attitude..

I confessed? I said that part about Bruce Timm as an example. EXAMPLE. Do you know what that word means? Let me spell it for you E-X-A-M-P-L-E. Example. You get it?

Sorry to be harsh but I'm trying to make a point.

[Antiyonder]

If you're thinking like a network vice president, yes, it is fair. Is that really the perspective that you adopt when watching something?

More executive VP thinking:

Look, I do admit that VPs will be proned into making a bad decision and don't mind making critical comments about it. But they can and will actually make decisions that I and some other posters agree with.

Do I adopt the perspective when I'm watching it? No, but I don't mind calling John K out on it. Now if he made his deadlines on time and he was still let off, then I'd be criticizing the VPs for their decision.

[Maxie Zeus]

I confessed? I said that part about Bruce Timm as an example. EXAMPLE. Do you know what that word means? Let me spell it for you E-X-A-M-P-L-E. Example. You get it?

Sorry to be harsh but I'm trying to make a point.

An example--an E-X-A-M-P-L-E--of what? You said

I don't know what he thinks of Bruce Timm, but it's likely John K hates him anyway.

By the same logic: I don't know what you think of babies, kittens and puppy dogs, but it's likely you hate them anyway.

And my reasons for thinking you hate everything good, fair and decent in the world are just as strong as your reasons for thinking John K hates Bruce Timm.

Back up your opinions with evidence if you don't want them treated with contempt.

Look, I do admit that VPs will be proned into making a bad decision and don't mind making critical comments about it. But they can and will actually make decisions that I and some other posters agree with.

Do I adopt the perspective when I'm watching it? No, but I don't mind calling John K out on it. Now if he made his deadlines on time and he was still let off, then I'd be criticizing the VPs for their decision.

And what business is it of yours? Do you wander around your local business district, listening for gossip about who has been fired, and then congratulating or condemning the employers for their decisions? If you don't do it there, why are you doing it on the internet?

Even if it is your business--an absurd supposition, but I'll pretend it isn't--do you possess sufficient facts to even render a judgement? You know a bit of bare lore, that John K. "missed deadlines." Do you know the reasons? Do you know the specifics? Do you know which side, if either, was being unreasonable? Do you possess any information that entitles you to declare that John K got exactly what he deserved? Because that is what you are saying, and it is a bold judgement. God preserve other people from your quick way with a verdict.

And even if you do have an intimate knowledge of the history between John K. and Nickelodeon, why is it even relevant? Let us stipulate that John K. has many objectionable properties and habits: that his feet stink; that he shoves old ladies in the grocery store; that he has dozens of unpaid parking tickets; that he talks loudly on his cell phone in the movie theater. And let us suppose someone came into these forums and announced he disliked John K. and his cartoons for these reasons. Would you nod your head sagely and agree that of course those were very good reasons to dislike a man and his work? If I told you that your favorite actor/musician/cartoonist had these same vices would you turn against them?

I repeat: only a network vice president could possibly hold John K.'s dilatory perfectionism against him. That self-professed animation fans think such are good reasons for disliking an artist says a great deal--none of it good--about them.

If you dislike him, find an aesthetic reason. Review the work, not the budget sheet.

[Movie06]

An example--an E-X-A-M-P-L-E--of what?

The thing is, John K hates everyone's works in animation aside from himself or his friends, I mean for christ's sake he hates Brad Bird's works.

[Zorak Masaki]

Yeah, but it wasn't like it would've been that hard to make a better version of "Magical Golden Singing Cheeses". ;) .

Yeah, its as if the games eps had an unhealthy obsession with cheese. Actually, oddly enough, the R&S comic book by Marvel seemed closer to the original R&S than the games eps did (plus, there were a lot of good background gags, and a crossover with spider-man!)

[Antiyonder]

And what business is it of yours? Do you wander around your local business district, listening for gossip about who has been fired, and then congratulating or condemning the employers for their decisions? If you don't do it there, why are you doing it on the internet?

Even if it is your business--an absurd supposition, but I'll pretend it isn't--do you possess sufficient facts to even render a judgement? You know a bit of bare lore, that John K. "missed deadlines." Do you know the reasons? Do you know the specifics? Do you know which side, if either, was being unreasonable? Do you possess any information that entitles you to declare that John K got exactly what he deserved? Because that is what you are saying, and it is a bold judgement. God preserve other people from your quick way with a verdict.

And even if you do have an intimate knowledge of the history between John K. and Nickelodeon, why is it even relevant? Let us stipulate that John K. has many objectionable properties and habits: that his feet stink; that he shoves old ladies in the grocery store; that he has dozens of unpaid parking tickets; that he talks loudly on his cell phone in the movie theater. And let us suppose someone came into these forums and announced he disliked John K. and his cartoons for these reasons. Would you nod your head sagely and agree that of course those were very good reasons to dislike a man and his work? If I told you that your favorite actor/musician/cartoonist had these same vices would you turn against them?

I repeat: only a network vice president could possibly hold John K.'s dilatory perfectionism against him. That self-professed animation fans think such are good reasons for disliking an artist says a great deal--none of it good--about them.

If you dislike him, find an aesthetic reason. Review the work, not the budget sheet.

I'm not saying he's the minion of Satan for missing his deadlines, nor am I against his cartoons as a whole. Saying he's wrong is hardly equivelent to "You Suck!". I'm being critical of him, but I don't hate him or am bashing him. Hate to break it to you, but I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as you are to your's. You want me and everyone else to be a mindless followers of you, then run for office and remove free speech and opinions.

As for reasons for missing a deadline, anything less then family time or emergencies do not justify missing deadline. After all, there are many employees who are busy outside of work and still make time to finish their deadlines.

Again, just incase you're skimming my post, my comment about him missing deadlines isn't against his cartoons, just work ethics. I'm not the one who brought up the deadlines bit. Someone else did and I gave my two cents on it, so I hardly brought up an irrelevent fact out of the blue. If you would read all posts thoroughly rather than skimming, you'd know that.

[MonkeyFunk]

That was an example, I don't know what he thinks of Bruce Timm, but it's likely John K hates him anyway.

He worked with Timm on Mighty Mouse: The New Adventures and has described him as "a nice guy". Dunno what he makes of Timm's post-MM:TNA work though.

The thing is, John K hates everyone's works in animation aside from himself or his friends, I mean for christ's sake he hates Brad Bird's works.

Like I said on the first page:

Aside from Bob Clampett and anime colouring, he's also spoken positively about the Fleischers, Tartakovsky, the Gorillaz videos, the character animation of Jane in Tarzan amongst other things. He's also been critical of his own stuff.

That said, I think it's a bit odd that people are sticking up for him so much when, if he cared, he could easily defend himself. I mean, by now he must have realised that he was a sour reputation with a swathe of cartoon fans, and he's in a position to change that; but if anything he's reveling in his role as the controversial bad boy.

[HG Revolution]

The thing is, John K hates everyone's works in animation aside from himself or his friends, I mean for christ's sake he hates Brad Bird's works.

He is friends with Bruce Timm, you know. As for Brad Bird, I remember him crediting his Family Dog short as a start of an upward trend in the quality of commercial animation, so I doubt he hates Brad as a person.

[Movie06]

He is friends with Bruce Timm, you know.

He is? Oops, I didn't know that. :sweat: Sorry, my mistake.

[Maxie Zeus]

my comment about him missing deadlines isn't against his cartoons, just work ethics.

No one has ever accused John K. of being a slacker. On the contrary, he has a reputation not only for working hard but for driving everyone who works for him into superhuman effort. His reputation, on the contrary, is for a perfectionism that pushes his projects past deadlines despite his hard work.

You don't know what you're talking about when you try talking about John K.

As for reasons for missing a deadline, anything less then family time or emergencies do not justify missing deadline.

I missed plenty of deadlines when working as an editor for a publisher of mathematics textbooks, because the company had set short deadlines within which work could not be completely checked for accuracy. I guess I and my teammates had no excuse for refusing to turn over our proof pages before we had finished checking, correcting, and rechecking them for errors of mathematics, grammar and clarity. Our experience was hardly unique: a passing acquaintance with "Dilbert" will suggest that the "corporation that is incompetent at setting deadlines and assigning resources" is so common as to be a cliche of real life.

You don't know what you're talking about when you try talking about deadlines, corporations, and the real world.

Hate to break it to you, but I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as you are to your's. You want me and everyone else to be a mindless followers of you, then run for office and remove free speech and opinions.

And you don't know what you're talking about when you try talking about logic, thought, and opinion.

Freedom of speech and thought is not the same thing as "freedom to talk crap without being corrected." Perhaps your teachers neglected to inform you of this difference; perhaps they were too timid to point out any errors you made in school, and so let you slide along on ignorance, arrogance, and the belief that thinking something was so made it so--certainly these qualities are on ample display in your posts. It is usually the job of the educational system to correct these vices when they appear in a pupil, and so I deduce that you are a victim of pedagogical malpractice. For that reason I won't hold them against you--you are as blameless as a cucumber in this regard. I'll caution you, though, that the world outside the classroom is less forgiving, and if you wish to express false and incompetent opinions without being called upon it, you had best cultivate the habit of capturing small insects and addressing your thoughts to them.

[Antiyonder]

No one has ever accused John K. of being a slacker. On the contrary, he has a reputation not only for working hard but for driving everyone who works for him into superhuman effort. His reputation, on the contrary, is for a perfectionism that pushes his projects past deadlines despite his hard work.

You don't know what you're talking about when you try talking about John K.

It would have helped the discussion if you would have presented thhis info before you.

I missed plenty of deadlines when working as an editor for a publisher of mathematics textbooks, because the company had set short deadlines within which work could not be completely checked for accuracy. I guess I and my teammates had no excuse for refusing to turn over our proof pages before we had finished checking, correcting, and rechecking them for errors of mathematics, grammar and clarity. Our experience was hardly unique: a passing acquaintance with "Dilbert" will suggest that the "corporation that is incompetent at setting deadlines and assigning resources" is so common as to be a cliche of real life.

You don't know what you're talking about when you try talking about deadlines, corporations, and the real world.

Now this is the only point I'll give you. I didn't take this into consideration.

And you don't know what you're talking about when you try talking about logic, thought, and opinion.

Freedom of speech and thought is not the same thing as "freedom to talk crap without being corrected." Perhaps your teachers neglected to inform you of this difference; perhaps they were too timid to point out any errors you made in school, and so let you slide along on ignorance, arrogance, and the belief that thinking something was so made it so--certainly these qualities are on ample display in your posts. It is usually the job of the educational system to correct these vices when they appear in a pupil, and so I deduce that you are a victim of pedagogical malpractice. For that reason I won't hold them against you--you are as blameless as a cucumber in this regard. I'll caution you, though, that the world outside the classroom is less forgiving, and if you wish to express false and incompetent opinions without being called upon it, you had best cultivate the habit of capturing small insects and addressing your thoughts to them.

First of all, I've graduated in 2001. Second, I wasn't aware that criticism was equated with talking crap. Yes, I might have errored in my opinion, but the worst I said was that he's wrong for not taking his deadline seriously. I didn't say nor imply that he was arrogant, ignorant, incompetant (The things you imply me of being, btw), slacker, the scum of Earth or that he should rot in Hell. I merely criticized his tendancy to miss a deadline.

Even then, I didn't state my opinion as a fact. If I'm wrong I'll gladly admit it. But regardless, I didn't insult him or verbally bash him. Telling someone of a flaw doesn't automatically equate to saying "you are teh suk!" (Yes the poor grammer on that quote is deliberate). So my opinion, while possibly wrong isn't the hate statement you make it out to be. Your paragraph on the otherhand is and since you are steps above me in intellect, shouldn't have to resort to insults.

Now if the case is a short deadline, there's a remedy. Get a start on his other works early, so that he'll have less to do on his limit (As someone else on here suggested).

[Jeff Harris]

You know, I think this thread has gone as far as it should. It devolved into rants and name-pointings towards a talented, yet controversial animator. Some true, some not so true. I'll admit I've played along with this too and am just as responsible as some of the others.

Therefore, since this thread has veered into name-calling amongst ourselves, I have to shut it down, and if this is out of line of the regular mods, forgive me for this action.

I am a man of peace, after all.

Unless I'm provoked.