B:TAS, TNBA, BB: Batman/Batgirl

[frostedone]

I was watching the Batman Mystery of the Batwoman movie the other day and it seemed like Bruce and Barbara were flirting. I always though that she liked Dick Grayson, not Batman. Then an episode or two of BB suggested that they may have been romantically involved. I did not notice this until recently, and it seems creepy. Batman was like 30 in BTAS and Batgirl was like 18. Plus I thought she liked Robin. It is kind of hard to look at Batman the same way, it is not wrong, but it is still unsettling. She was much younger, and she liked Robin, his adopted son... Also she seemed very bitter to Bruce in BB, so could that be the reason?

Am I wrong, or did they really like each other romantically?


On a different note, what ever happened to Nightwing? He was not shown in BB or any of the movies, or JL. Just his costume.

It seems sad that the once proud Batman crumbled in his old age, it seems like Tim, Barbara, and Dick all disliked him eventually. The Epilogue episode of JL and BB hinted at this. In BB:ROTJ things did patch up between them except for Dick though. It just seems sad that all of Bruces partners left him.

Sorry for this triple question, but I just had to ask. Everything went from great to worse it seems.

[Master Toon]

I was watching the Batman Mystery of the Batwoman movie the other day and it seemed like Bruce and Barbara were flirting. I always though that she liked Dick Grayson, not Batman. Then an episode or two of BB suggested that they may have been romantically involved. I did not notice this until recently, and it seems creepy. Batman was like 30 in BTAS and Batgirl was like 18. Plus I thought she liked Robin. It is kind of hard to look at Batman the same way, it is not wrong, but it is still unsettling. She was much younger, and she liked Robin, his adopted son... Also she seemed very bitter to Bruce in BB, so could that be the reason?

Am I wrong, or did they really like each other romantically?

Someone might be able to tell you in more detail but yes, Bruce and Barbara had something going on.



On a different note, what ever happened to Nightwing? He was not shown in BB or any of the movies, or JL. Just his costume.

It seems sad that the once proud Batman crumbled in his old age, it seems like Tim, Barbara, and Dick all disliked him eventually. The Epilogue episode of JL and BB hinted at this. In BB:ROTJ things did patch up between them except for Dick though. It just seems sad that all of Bruces partners left him.

Sorry for this triple question, but I just had to ask. Everything went from great to worse it seems.In Batman Beyond, Nightwing was probably too old to do anything, maybe they could have gave him a "Grey Ghost" episode.

As for ROTJ, I'm curious to why they hate him as well. Did he push them too hard like he did Terry? I guess he bargained their lives just as he did his, not knowing that they weren't willing to kill themselves for petty thugs. But I'm not sure.

[Wolf Boy2]

Maxie Zeus and Alex Weitzman have written extensively on this subject. I think their essays are available on The World's Finest somewhere.

Or you can do a forum search for "The Eschatology (sp?) of Barbara Gordon."

They've written more about Barbara than you could EVER want to know. :p

[ROBOTRON]

I'm pretty sure the Timmverse Batman shows suggested a relationship between Bruce and Barbara at some point.

Personally, I got the feeling Barbara did like Dick Grayson too...but was more infatuation than an intimate relationship. In ROTJ I think Barb's relationship with Bruce (prior) went sour and helped fuel the hate she had for him in ROTJ.

I'm not sure why Tim Drake hated him so...he actually explained why in ROTJ, but there had to be something else...Tim just hated him too much.

[Toddman]

Maxie Zeus and Alex Weitzman have written extensively on this subject. I think their essays are available on The World's Finest somewhere.

Or you can do a forum search for "The Eschatology (sp?) of Barbara Gordon."

They've written more about Barbara than you could EVER want to know. :p


True that.

http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=174951&highlight=eschatology


Toddman

[Wonderwall]

Not sure why you guys think that Barbs, Tim and Dick hated him. Bitter and hate are two very different things. Bruce pushed them away, they felt hurt so they just went away like he wanted. There were enough times to show Barb still cared for the old guy, and the last scene in ROTJ shows Tim clearly doesnt hate Bruce. Dick never showed up but if he did, the same would go for him as well.

[DerekPowers]

Not sure why you guys think that Barbs, Tim and Dick hated him. Bitter and hate are two very different things. Bruce pushed them away, they felt hurt so they just went away like he wanted. There were enough times to show Barb still cared for the old guy, and the last scene in ROTJ shows Tim clearly doesnt hate Bruce. Dick never showed up but if he did, the same would go for him as well.
Yeah, they didnt hate eachother, but they had serious issues. The "side-kicks" resented him, but they never hated him. Some could say they are a lot like many dysfunctional "families".

"A Touch Of Curare" somewhat explains why Barbara and him broke-up, but a lot is still left up to the imagination.

I hated MOTBW mainly for that particular scene. I just want to forget it ever happened, mainly because it portrays Bruce in a way contrary to his character, it portrays Barbara in an uncharacteristic way as well, it messes with the continuity already established in MUCH better movies and episodes, and its poorly written and comes off sounding and feeling unnatural, jarring, and just bad.

But most of all, it takes the mystery out of the Bruce/Barbara romance. In BB, there was 50 years (or maybe 30 if you minus the years Bruce wasnt Batman before he met Terry), where it was left to the viewer to really fill in the gaps. That scene just places it at a too fixed time-period for me, especially since given JL, JLU, and the ROTJ flashback, now this HAS to take place before the flashback, you know.

If the movie had been amazing, maybe you could let it slide, but it wasnt. I think that is the thing I hate most about MOTBW, which really wasnt that terrible, but wasnt that good either. And its things like this that just sink it.

[frostedone]

Thanks a lot everyone, that cleared up a whole lot. The essays are very well written and though out.

One thing still bugs me though? Nightwing. We hear him mentioned a lot in BB and he even has a small cameo in JL, but we never see what actually happens to him. His relationship with Bruce and co didn't seem to bad at the end of TNBA.

[Maxie Zeus]

Maxie Zeus and Alex Weitzman have written extensively on this subject. I think their essays are available on The World's Finest somewhere.

Just for the record/Credit where credit is due: The Old Maid did most of the heavy lifting with that question. (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=110999) James, too.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Wasn't there a DVD extra where Timm or someone explained why they decided to put Bruce and Barbara together (something about messing around with fan expectations)? I was looking for it, but I can't find it.

[Alph]

Barbara seemed to have a crush on Batman since BTAS. Remember her dream that almost ended with her smooching Batman, right before she woke up? How could anyone miss that?

[DerekPowers]

Barbara seemed to have a crush on Batman since BTAS. Remember her dream that almost ended with her smooching Batman, right before she woke up? How could anyone miss that?
True, but remember who woke her? It was Dick Grayson. Even as a kid, I always thought that was meant as a strange foreshadowing. Like Batgirl had a schoolgirl crush on Batman, but it was really Dick she was meant to be with, she just didnt realize it because he was more accessable. And I always felt "Batgirl Returns" was almost like a Batgirl and Robin bonding, or even "date-style" episode. There's quite a bit of chemistry between them. (ofcourse this was long before BB).

I like to think that Dick and Barbara had a more serious relationship than the one we've seen in episodes like "Old Wounds", up until Nightwing left Gotham. Perhaps that is the reason he left, because Batgirl eventually broke up with him and later fell in love w/ Batman.

Barbara mentions they had an affair in "A Touch of Curare", but refers to it as "puppy love". Perhaps the old woman wasnt being as open w/ Terry about that part because it hits a nerve? Im just saying I think there's still room in the Timmverse for a more substantial Dick/Barb romance. In which case you could think of MOTBW (if you wish to count it and that horrid scene) as taking place AFTER Nightwing left Gotham, but before the flashback in ROTJ.