Theoretical Question... Bernard B. Brown

[Sogturtle]

Hey gang~

Here's an intriguing question...
Ifffff Bernard Brown (despite the films credits) did NOT DIRECT the two early Schlesinger/Warner toons "Pettin' in the Park" (1934) & "Those Were Wonderful Days" (1934) (Friz was adamant that the credits were a fiction), then WHO do YOU think the actual director was...??? (And no, Tom Palmer was long gone, and Earl Duvall hadn't gotten himself canned yet). Any takers??

[The Turtle has his own candidate(s) but isn't talkin' ;) ;) ]

[Pietro]

Although I've never seen it, the plot to "Pettin in the Park" sounds like it was directed by Earl Duvall. And Ben Hardaway was at the studio back then, so maybe he directed one of the two.

-Pietro:D

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by Pietro Shakarian
Although I've never seen it, the plot to "Pettin in the Park" sounds like it was directed by Earl Duvall. And Ben Hardaway was at the studio back then, so maybe he directed one of the two.

-Pietro:D

Good guess Pietro . Buuuuuut Earl Duvall was already getting screen credit. And Hardaway had just arrived at the studio and only gained the director's chair upon Leon's throwing Duvall out the closest open window... More???

[Do-Do]

I don't know......maybe Jack King?

[Matthew Hunter]

What was the deal with Earl Duvall anyway? I've never read much about him, and I don't think the Buddy cartoons he did were that horrible. I doubt Schlesinger had much against Buddy or the creation thereof, because Buddy appears in a whole series of cartoons by several directors. What were the grounds for dumping Duvall, or did he leave on his own? Same with Tom Palmer and Jack King?
-Matthew

[J Lee]

Judging from the very brief comment in Barrier's book, it sounds like Earl Duval was someone who could bluff his way into a situation fairly well -- which isn't necessarily a bad thing, since that's what Avery did with Schlesinger -- but Duval was unable to produce when given a position of authority. With Leon's budget conciousness and his need to keep J.L. happy, that probably means either his cartoons were over time/budget, or he tried to ignore Schlesinger, who did not want Hugh Harman II to deal with (though if No. 2 were the case, I'm sure an ancedote would have turned up somewhere by now).

As for who directed "Petting in the Park" and "Those Were Wonderful Days" that's one that's open to speculation. The designs on the characters at the end of the "Days" look a lot like the Hardaway-Dalton designs used in "Love and Curses" (except for the fact the heroine in this one makes the women of 'Baywatch' look like Kate Moss), and both Ben and Cal were working at the studio at the time, so it is possible they both could have played a part in shaping this one, in terms of story (Hardaway) and design/layout (Dalton), without officially being the directors.

"Petting In the Park" was animated by Bob Clampett and Jack King. Believe me, if Clampett had directed it, we would have known about it by now. King's a possibility, while another animator who left about the same time as Duvall -- Frank Tashlin -- would be a longshot bet on having a hand in it (though the secondary character designs are a lot like "Buddy's Beer Garden" with a lot of rounded forms, which is something Tashlin liked to use when he returned to the studio in 1936).

[Jon Cooke]

Originally posted by J Lee
"Petting In the Park" was animated by Bob Clampett and Jack King. Believe me, if Clampett had directed it, we would have known about it by now.

Well, some of the gags from "Pettin' in the Park" did show up later in Clampett's "Porky's Naughty Nephew"...


-Jon

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by Matthew Hunter
What was the deal with Earl Duvall anyway? I've never read much about him, and I don't think the Buddy cartoons he did were that horrible. I doubt Schlesinger had much against Buddy or the creation thereof, because Buddy appears in a whole series of cartoons by several directors. What were the grounds for dumping Duvall, or did he leave on his own? Same with Tom Palmer and Jack King?
-Matthew

Matthew~

The truth on Earl Duvall runs like this... He was fired for gross conduct-unbecoming a cartoon director... that is raging at Leon Schlesinger!!! In reality he had a serious, serious problem, namely BOOZE... His first cartoons were viewed as successes and then when he directed the color "Honeymoon Hotel" he and Schlesinger and the whole studio thought it was the best cartoon yet. When Friz came to work one morning immediately after "Honeymoon Hotel" was completed he met Duvall across the street for breakfast... Earl was having a ummmm "liquid" breakfast and was working himself up into a fine drunken rage to go demand a huge raise from Schlesinger. Freleng attempted to head him off from talking to Leon till he'd sobered up, but was unsuccessful. Duvall burst into Schlesinger's office and (imagine the scene ifffff you like)... came wandering back dejectedly a while later to inform Friz that "Leon had thrown" him out, forever. End of Earl Duvall as a Hollywood cartoon director, forever. HOWEVER he did manage to somehow stagger across town and was hired by Ub Iwerks as a storyman (come on he'd worked at Disney's and Schlesinger's he MUST be a good worker... :rolleyes: :( ). I BELIEVE that he worked on the Willie Whopper cartoons with Grim Natwick and Berny Wolf (but I could be wrong, no confirmation yet). Thus Ben Hardaway ended up with his job at Leon's, and Duvall ended up with Hardaway's job at Iwerks. Earlier at Walt's Duvall had been a storyman and a layout artist, so he did have some background in gag-construction and staging. Friz would years later state that it was sad to see Earl Duvall go, BUT that in reality Duvall was a BAD influence in the studio...

Tom Palmer was fired essentially for making cartoons that were NOT saleable to Warners!! The people that worked under him as director (at Leon's and at Van Buren's ) remember him as being catastrophically unfunny. Palmer was a neophyte director with no story experience and should have been forced to make a sample for Leon, but Schlesinger was desperate and simply believed that any Disney animator could direct... Tom Palmer promptly proved him wrong, and Leon ran him out. Freleng was hired away from Harman-Ising to salvage what he could of the completed Palmer cartoons. (Evidently newly arrived animator Jack CARR would convey the story of Palmer's incompetence to a close friend of his back at Lantz's... a guy by the name of Avery).

Jack King was another story altogether. He was a longtime successful silent-cartoon animator from New York, who was hired by Walt immediately after Iwerks quit. He appears to either have been passed over for direction at Disney's or refused it. Schlesinger specifically hired King as the head animator (in a studio record I have for 1933 he is actually described as such) and NOT as a director. When circumstances eventually forced him to the director's chair his cartoons managed to pass (even if we don't know how!! ). He quit Schlesinger's in the Spring of 1936 and Frank Tashlin was hired right away in his stead (not a bad trade-off ;)). The fact that King jumped immediately from Leon's place, back over to Disney's as the sole director of Walt's hottest cartoon property (Donald Duck) is no mean feat... Walter Elias undoubtedly wanted malleable (read: weak) directors but Jack King managed to beat all the odds and stayed there as Donald's director till retirement!

As for our mystery director of "Petting in the Park" & "Those Were Wonderful Days", John Lee is very right on this... It most definitely was NOT Robert E. Clampett!!!

[Matthew Hunter]

Very interesting, Sogturtle. Duvall had alcohol problems eh? That's sad. True, he wasn't taking the studio in new directions, but he was certainly capable enough. There's a what-if for you...what if Friz Freleng had actually kept Duvall from doing that?

As for the director of that "Pettin In the Park" cartoon, I've never seen it, but judging by the time period it could have been a collective effort. If they had people coming and going, who knows? If Bernard Brown didn't do it, maybe Duvall did it, and if not him than Friz Freleng, or a combination thereof. Clampett probably didn't. I've heard that he was very vocal on his direction, by no means modest. He wouldn't have left that cartoon off his list. I THINK his first cartoon was "Porky's Badtime Story", and he was pretty much picking up where Ub Iwerks left off on the Gabby Goat character. Speaking of directorial questioning and Clampett, The other Gabby cartoon Clampett did, "Get Rich Quick Porky", doesn't even look like his work. The story and gags are there, but the designs are a bit different from "Badtime Story". I think Clampett loosely mapped it out and Chuck Jones did most of the rest...look at that ground squirrel/gopher guy and the swindler dog...looks like something out of a Jones "Curious Dog" film. The timing in some spots is very early Jones-esque.
-Matthew

[J Lee]

Earl was having a ummmm "liquid" breakfast and was working himself up into a fine drunken rage to go demand a huge raise from Schlesinger. Freleng attempted to head him off from talking to Leon till he'd sobered up, but was unsuccessful. Duvall burst into Schlesinger's office and (imagine the scene ifffff you like)... came wandering back dejectedly a while later to inform Friz that "Leon had thrown" him out, forever. End of Earl Duvall as a Hollywood cartoon director, forever.

Aha, Tim, so there is an ancedote about the Earl of Duvall's deaprture from the Sunset lot -- though, while his drinking was probably a big factor, judging from other stories about the studio, alcohol imbition was normally not a disqalifying factor for employment. But storming into Leon's office in a rage and asking for more money does sound very Harman-like, and with Schlesinger now running the studio without any middleman, chances are he wasn't going to put up with that stuff again.

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by Jon Cooke


Well, some of the gags from "Pettin' in the Park" did show up later in Clampett's "Porky's Naughty Nephew"...

-Jon

Hey Jon Cooke (no "i" in that name ;) :) )~

Now that is a very good point... Bob Clampett actually made a complete list of ALL the Warner's shorts that he contributed gags to, and it is my recollection that he did indeed name "Pettin' in the Park" amongst them, thus the similarity :cool:

Matthew Hunter~

You are right about "Porky's Badtime Story" being Clampett's first cartoon... Buuuuut the interesting thing is that Ub Iwerks had actually started the cartoon before walking out!! However it is unknown how much actual directing Iwerks did on these cartoons (he had previously had the credited animators direct them for him). And you are right, the two Iwerks Pork-o's and "...Badtime Story" were written by the storymen back at the main studio and sent over. With "Get Rich Quick Porky" the story was brewed up right out of the Clampett and Jones cauldron. When some of Bob's former animators were interviewed it was found that some amongst them did freely admit that they had viewed Clampett and Jones as co-directors on the early cartoons!! (Despite Bob swearing otherwise). And it is a fact that it was none other than Chuck Jones who was drawing Bob's animation layouts!!!

[Matthew Hunter]

Did Harman have a problem with drinking too? His cartoons sure dwell on it at times, so I would not be surprised. And I think Harman's departure, as I understand it, was more his argument-more of an "I-Quit-you're-fired" scenario over money. But Schlesinger was a moron to let him go with both Ising and :bosko: , not to mention Freleng too. As we all know, things worked out for the better in the long run for both of them, but I think that short-term, both parties made a dumb decision. Especially since they were doing so well with :bosko: . Then again, those crappy "Happy Harmonies" could have been WARNER cartoons, so maybe those high-budget bore-fests were what Schlesinger feared would happen. (I don't like those).
-Matthew

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by Matthew Hunter
Did Harman have a problem with drinking too? His cartoons sure dwell on it at times, so I would not be surprised. And I think Harman's departure, as I understand it, was more his argument-more of an "I-Quit-you're-fired" scenario over money. But Schlesinger was a moron to let him go with both Ising and :bosko: , not to mention Freleng too. As we all know, things worked out for the better in the long run for both of them, but I think that short-term, both parties made a dumb decision. Especially since they were doing so well with :bosko: . Then again, those crappy "Happy Harmonies" could have been WARNER cartoons, so maybe those high-budget bore-fests were what Schlesinger feared would happen. (I don't like those).
-Matthew

As far as I know, NO, Hugh didn't have a serious booze problem. His problem tended to be much more one of rejecting authority (and authority figures) whether Disney, Mintz, Schlesinger or Quimby. He did have a serious problem comprehending that studios had this bad habit of regarding their money as well, their money ;). It should be pointed that Harman had actually offered Friz Freleng a partnership with him and Rudy Ising, but that Friz turned it down! Freleng recalled years later that he rejected it in favor of a flat salary because he knew that any business headed by Hugh was bound to fail!!!

And though Leon Schlesinger and Hugh Harman had come to literally hate-each-other's guts, they soon found out that life was harder after the split. Harman and Ising found themselves all but starving at first (1933-34) and then being monitored for every dime they spent (or overspent) by Fred Quimby and Metro. While Leon found that though he'd evidently thought 'a cartoonist is a cartoonist' he soon found out otherwise thanks to Tom Palmer (and then Earl Duvall). Talented director-writers with some sense of 'team spirit' and loyalty were not readily available. Until Friz was lured over...

If anything we can probably date the change in Harman-Ising cartoons to one thing... the loss of Friz Freleng in the Fall of 1933. The Cubby Bear Van Buren cartoons they made SEEM to be cut from the same cloth as their Warner toons. Exit Friz. Enter Metro. The earliest MGM Boskos already have a slowness and loss of gag-focus. By my estimation they are not bad cartoons by any means, but it is like part of the comedy-soul has been ripped out or fled to more fertile pastures (or "Green Pastures" :D). The Warner insistence on using a contemporary jazz song is painfully gone. Hugh and Rudy soon found themselves relying on people like Mel Shaw, Bob Allen, and Bill Hanna to fill Friz's shoes (all of whom had NO chance of advancement while the short red-headed dude was still on board). All were talented but none were Friz or had his stature with Harman and Ising. Meanwhile Harman had been studying serious "FILM-MAKING" and was trying to drive his remaining animators to greater accomplishments ala Disney. It's really not until in 1936 that he succeeded in making the grade, that is a cartoon that could again stand up with the Warner cartoons. This is not to say that the replacement animators (and surviving few) had not become very fine as animators, indeed they had. But Harman was just taking 'film-making' much too seriously and forgetting to keep his audience entertained.

... Meanwhile back at the ranch er barn er Bernard Barn er Bernard Brown... :D :D

[Pietro]

Originally posted by Sogturtle
Buuuuut the interesting thing is that Ub Iwerks had actually started the cartoon before walking out!! However it is unknown how much actual directing Iwerks did on these cartoons (he had previously had the credited animators direct them for him). And you are right, the two Iwerks Pork-o's and "...Badtime Story" were written by the storymen back at the main studio and sent over.

Wow, Ub really did allot didn't he?;)

-Pietro:D

[Matthew Hunter]

And it is a fact that it was none other than Chuck Jones who was drawing Bob's animation layouts!!!

Aha! So I was right. I knew that looked like Jones' style more than Clampett's. I'm generally pretty good at judging artist's styles in WB cartoons. I'm very interested to know that Jones and Clampett worked so closely on those films, because to me parts of them seem more Jones than Clampett, and some scenes vice-versa. Clampett's designs tended to be more 'goony', Jones was more detailed and sleek. One of my least favorite cartoons is another example of this collaboration, "Rover's Rival". Notice how Porky's design varies in style from the dogs' designs, and how detailed the dogs are compared to the pig. In this one, it looks like Clampett did most of the idea work, but Jones animated it, unquestionably. How interesting still that Chuck Jones never really did 'Clampettesque" cartooning as a billed director...he did more Disneylike films and then became his own style altogether, relying more on the animation and facial expressions than Clampett ever did. Sniffles doesn't ever whack anyone on the head or cross his eyes and turn to rubber...in fact, he's the opposite of a Clampett character, downright SLUGGISH. Similarly, the much better Wile E. Coyote does not do wild motions, he's all in the expression. That's how I can tell, Jones relied on expression, and had a distinctive style in such. Clampett relied on what the character DID.
-Matthew

[J Lee]

Clampett and Jones were the ying and yang of the Avery unit as it developed the Warners' 'house style' in 1936-37. Jones was obviously the side that emphasized developing a more fluid, Disney-like drawing style which helped make the gags go over better and, beginning with "Porky's Duck Hunt," made the main chartacter look better as well. Clampett was pushing Tex on his wild side (which he preferred, anyway), and wanted to do things as crazy as possible, even if the draftsmanship went downhill some after Jones left.

You can tell in the character designs when Jones left the Clampett unit -- while Porky keeps his rounded form, all the secondary characters get more angular and rubbery beginning around the time "Porky In Wackyland" came out (and, to try and get the thread headed back in the right direction, I don't think Jones would have had anything major to do with either of Bernard Brown's cartoons -- he was too new to the studio at the time, though he may have done some assistant animation work behind Don Williams and Paul J. Smith on "Those Were Wonderful Days," since his first animatior credit pops up about four months later).

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by J Lee
....and, to try and get the thread headed back in the right direction, I don't think Jones would have had anything major to do with either of Bernard Brown's cartoons -- he was too new to the studio at the time, though he may have done some assistant animation work behind Don Williams and Paul J. Smith on "Those Were Wonderful Days," since his first animatior credit pops up about four months later).

True John~

There's no way either Clampett or Jones could have been in any kind of position to direct when these two cartoons were made. Clampett was a fledgling animator with Chuck just behind him. Shortly after this is when it started becoming apparent though to the other animators that they were to be feared! Bob and Chuck added to this by suggesting that their creativity could be spurred further by getting them out from the other animators and up into a room to themselves.

But the real director(s) of these two cartoons had to have had some previous experience directing and lost his screen credit for _____ reasons??

[Greg Method]

Originally posted by Sogturtle

Bob Clampett actually made a complete list of ALL the Warner's shorts that he contributed gags to

Let's see...knowing how Clampett boasted, why do I have a feeling it looks exactly like the LT&MM book with the cover torn off? :bosko:

[Sogturtle]

quote:
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Originally posted by Sogturtle

Bob Clampett actually made a complete list of ALL the Warner's shorts that he contributed gags to
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Originally posted by Greg Method


Let's see...knowing how Clampett boasted, why do I have a feeling it looks exactly like the LT&MM book with the cover torn off? :bosko:

I like that Greg, tis pretty funny (course you're going to be flogged by all the Clampett fans here :bosko: ). But in reality Clampett's list was made out long before Friedwald & Beck's first book came out. And although his 'gag/story' filmography does contain the obvious preposterous claims ("A Wild Hare" "Porky's Hare Hunt" etc.) many of the films claimed by him in the Thirties most likely do have a SMALL amount of Clampett input, and as such is informative. What is much MORE valuable is the filmography that he made of ALL the Schlesinger/Warner cartoons that he animated on and even those that he was an assistant animator on!.

[Pietro]

Now that I've seen it, it's very likely that Clampett directed "Pettin' in the Park," in my opinion. I mean there were many gags in that cartoon that were way different than others of that time period at Warner's. Especially the gags with the penguin. And as Jon said earlier, gags and animation were later reused in "Porky's Naughty Nephew." Either Clampett directed or wrote this cartoon.

-Pietro:D

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by Pietro
Now that I've seen it, it's very likely that Clampett directed "Pettin' in the Park," in my opinion. I mean there were many gags in that cartoon that were way different than others of that time period at Warner's. Especially the gags with the penguin. And as Jon said earlier, gags and animation were later reused in "Porky's Naughty Nephew." Either Clampett directed or wrote this cartoon.

-Pietro:D



Pietro~

I wish it was true that Clampett (or Clampett-Jones) had directed "Pettin' In The Park" [and its companion toon]. BUT Bob Clampett was verrrrrrry specific that he DIDN'T DIRECT anything till that 1937 cartoon intro. His contention that he contributed gags to it is very likely true though.

[TServo2049]

Well, then, Soggy...who do YOU think directed these cartoons?

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by TServo2049
Well, then, Soggy...who do YOU think directed these cartoons?

Jeff~

It's my PERSONAL BELIEF that the odds are astronomically high that these two babies were directed by an individual who was NOT on the Schlesinger staff. Whether a fired individual or someone in the actual employ of another studio is something to quibble about (I of course have my suspicions ;) )... Either way Leon couldn't or wouldn't give credit and opted to stick Brown's name on the toons (the only time Brown's and Spencer's names would appear on the same films).

The only other possiblity is the notion that sound-effects/part-time music man Bernard Brown actually managed to direct these, and I find that impossible to swallow.

[J Lee]

Actually, those two cartoons may be the only case in the history of the Schlesinger studio where the credit "Supervision" instead of "Director" actually was accurate.

Judging by the comments in Barrier's book, Leon was looking for anyone who knew something about putting celluloid on the screen after the Tom Palmer debacle, and Brown, by knowing the ins and outs of Hollywood as well as being a tremendous "schmoozer" (if Clampett says you're a great schmoozer, you're a great schmoozer) may have given Leon the impetus to put Brown in charge of overseeing those cartoons under a group of junior staffers.

In that way, Bernard may never have touched pencil to paper, but would have "supervised" the ones who did, and under Leon's system was then given the credit that normally was reserved for his actual directors.

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by J Lee
Actually, those two cartoons may be the only case in the history of the Schlesinger studio where the credit "Supervision" instead of "Director" actually was accurate.

Judging by the comments in Barrier's book, Leon was looking for anyone who knew something about putting celluloid on the screen after the Tom Palmer debacle, and Brown, by knowing the ins and outs of Hollywood as well as being a tremendous "schmoozer" (if Clampett says you're a great schmoozer, you're a great schmoozer) may have given Leon the impetus to put Brown in charge of overseeing those cartoons under a group of junior staffers.

In that way, Bernard may never have touched pencil to paper, but would have "supervised" the ones who did, and under Leon's system was then given the credit that normally was reserved for his actual directors.

Yes John I see your point (and I think you know my view on Barrier and his aberrant views). The problem is that Friz Freleng stated VERRRRY emphatically that the attribution of these two toons to Brown was purely fiction by Leon. Brown's whole career post-Schlesinger was as a musician, while his role at Leon's was as Treg Brown's predecessor in the sound-effects and editing room. Neither of which would indicate a person capable of directing or "supervising" a cartoon (Can we envision Bill Lava or Hoyt Curtin directing a coherent Warner's cartoon??? Let alone TWO such cartoons???)

The fact is that somebody succeeded in making two fine cartoons, and the odds are way against it being any junior staffers. If we cross out the obvious upper-echelon folk (Freleng, Duvall, King, Clampett, Jones, Hardaway, Ham Hamilton) ON staff then we end up with people who were WAY down the food chain (e.g. Don Williams, Frank Tipper etc.). [Iffffff Jack Carr were present at that juncture then that might be conceivable, but he wasn't there yet]. Even with gags supplied in part by Bob Clampett, these cartoons are NOT the work of a neophyte director or that of a quasi-soundman/musician. When these two goobers were made there were at least two or three outside directors who might have done them for Schlesinger without ever being officially on staff. Unless we want to consider the weird but real possiblity of them having been started and substantially completed by Frank Tashlin before he stormed out... Which MIGHT explain Leon hiring him back later as a director... (I still hold to the outside directors notion though).

[J Lee]

Brown may not have done anything but served as a go-between for Leon and the staff on those two cartoons, but did such a good job sucking up to the boss he got the supervision credit.

The end of the cartoon "Those Were Wonderful Days" does bear a strong resemblence to entire plot "Love and Curses," the real debut cartoon for the Hardaway and Dalton team. Both I believe were on staff by then, though odds are very slim Leon would have put either in charge at that time (Hardaway might have contributed a gag or two.

On the Tashlin thing -- one possiblity that would point towards Frank is a comment he made 20 years later while working on "Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter?" He said he cast Jayne Mansfield because he found it funny that "American men are fascianted with large breasts," which Frank himself tended to accentuate on his female characters at Warners. The heroine of the end-of-the-cartoon melodrama in "Wonderful Days" certainly falls into the same category.

[Patrick McCart]

Looking at the patterns, I think Earl Duval partially directed the two and Ben Hardaway finished.

Honeymoon Hotel must have been finished before Buddy's Garage (due to time for color processing) and there's a steady stream of Friz Freleng supervised cartoons after Buddy's Garage.

[Pietro]

I think Tashlin definetly directed "Pettin' in the Park." The gags are very well paced and outrageous.

-Pietro:D