The Ultimates 3 #1 - 5 "Sex, Lies, and DVD" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Spider-Man]

They have returned!

THE ULTIMATES 3 #1

http://www.marvel.com/i/content/st/1969new_storyimage6697841_thumb.jpg (http://www.marvel.com/i/content/st/1969new_storyimage6697841_full.jpg)

Written by: Jeph Loeb
Pencils & Covers by: Joe Madureira & Christian Lichtner

The Story: The can’t-miss third season of the world’s most controversial super hero team has arrived! No longer working for S.H.I.E.L.D., Earth’s mightiest heroes operate from Tony Stark’s mansion in New York—but that doesn’t mean they’re in the clear! New members! New adventures! New secrets! The March on Ultimatum continues here and when one of Earth’s greatest heroes dies, it sends the Ultimate Universe down the path of no return!

Comments?

[En Sabah Nur]

This issue started off good. The story is divided into several different directions. Wanda being shot. It looks like a Hawkeye's bullet. After all, he said he will try do something about Wanda and Pietro. When has Black Panther joined Ultimates? And why can't they find him? Its interesting that Wasp is in charge. Rogers is getting his life together. Hawkeye has a bullseye on his head, like you know, Bullseye. Hank is screwed up as ever, overdozing himself. BTW, this mini, along with Ultimate Power 8-9 is a prelude to Ultimatum mini. Where the destruction of Ultimate Universe will occur.

[W.C.Reaf]

I've just read this issue and I didn't particularly like it.

Despite what everyone I know was saying about the art being "utterly amazing" I wasn't wow'd by it. Too much focus on muscles on most of the guys and big breasts on the women. I also found the story hard to follow in places because of the art, that's not good for a comic.

While I'm sure the venom attack will be explained, how did they know he was called Venom? How did they know he was a Spider-Man villain? Venom's been in only one issue of the Ultimate Spider-Man comics (and one game that's out of continuity) and hasn't been named in it.

I'd comment on Black Panther but he was in it for what? Two panels? Did he even say anything?

I think I've been spoiled by Millar and Hitch because I kept thinking of their spectacular run on the other two Ultimates books and how much better it would've been writing and art wise.

Loeb/Madureira seems to be treating this like a superhero book instead of the political/character based plots that Millar did. I wonder if Millar/Hitch did it would the team be sitting around in their mission uniforms and that Wasp would have a mask? I doubt it.

I think either the art or the writing improving could save this book, but at the moment I'm grateful that we only get five issues instead of thirteen.

3/10 Because Hawkeye has potential and Hank seems to be in-character.

[Matt Hazuda]

The art was decent, but the overall story left nothing to be desired. I expect the massive delays to start shortly as well, so we should be finished with this Ultimates series maybe by 2010, but without me reading it.

[Joe Wagner]

Gotta agree with some of the posts above - the story seems extremely poor and then you have the issue of Wanda and Quicksilver being a little closer then is morally or legally appropriate. I enjoyed Joe Mads return, but the art wasn't nearly as strong as his earlier work on Uncanny X-Men. Sad as he's easily one of my favorite artists in the industry.

-Joe!

[W.C.Reaf]

The only thing that got me intrigued in the whole issue (and I'd completely forgot about it when I made my post) was the doctor that came to help Wanda. He looked awfully familiar to fans of 616 Thor. ;)

That might not be a good thing as we've had too much 616 stuff this issue and it makes me wonder if Loeb did any research as to what the Ultimate comic line is actually like.

[Reed Richards]

what the hell was this? when did Wasp go caucasian? since when does she call Hank, her abusive ex husband, "Dr. Pym" ?? When did Valkyrie, a joke hero from Millars run, actually get powers and hook up with Thor? and was that Dr. Blake there at the end? Ultimate Thor was a NURSE not a doctor. Out and out making Pietro and Wanda lovers is just a freaking sick joke (the ambiguity was fine but this crosses a line). Caps moralizing and brooding seems out of character for Ult. Cap.

I'm not sure Loeb has any good stories left to tell if this is a barometer of where he is. His DC work toward the end was beyond awful.

At least the art was cool. I guess. Seems a little over-augmented at time if you know what I mean...

EDIT

In thinking about it, the art ISNT cool. Who the hell approved using all the 616 costumes in the Ultimate universe? and for the record, I think Loeb has ruined the Ultimates. Only took him one issue too. Usually it takes him a while to run a book into the ground. He typically has good ideas and setup that go nowhere. He couldn't even be bothered with that here.

[sleepydumbdude]

This issue gave me a few wtf moments. I don't care for it so far.

[Xurk]

Wow. Well, this issue was all over the place!!

I agree with most of the other posters above me, this ultimately [:p] didn't feel like an issue set in the Ultimate Universe, but more like a 616 story. That all started off right at the beginning, with Venom bursting in looking exactly like he did until Mac Gargan gained the symbiote over in the 616 universe. I have a hard time believing that was young Eddie Brock in there and what happened when he was defeated was also very odd.

Also, this issue seems to be overridden with all these "moments" which are on almost every page, like Venom bursting in, Black Panther jumping in, Valkyrie soaring in, Valkyrie and Thor smooching, Janet discovering that Hank OD'd, Wanda getting shot... what bugged me was that NOTHING was explained, there was no build-up or justification for any of these shots, which made the whole issue seem poorly thought-out and as if a tornado had just stormed through, instead of it feeling like a lengthy, cohesive read.

One more thing, I know the Ultimates are grimmer and grittier than their 616 counterparts, but this felt kind of overdone, it was like they had all turned into Batmans since the ending of Volume 2 [and didn't feel in the same tone as that "catch-up" issue with Tony from a week or two ago].

I did think the art was pretty cool, although not anywhere near Bryan Hitch's amazing work yet, so it seems that this title has dropped not only in the story department. I hope the next issue can bring it up to par somewhat, because this was disappointing.

[Xurk]

After the mandatory delay with this title, the second installment finally comes out today!

ULTIMATES 3 #2

http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0108/ULTMTSV3002_SM.jpg (http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0108/ULTMTSV3002.jpg)

WRITER: Jeph Loeb
PENCILS: Joe Madureira

THE STORY: The Brotherhood vs. the Ultimates…Hawkeye vs. Spider-Man…the shocker of the year rocks on! Reeling from the sneak attack by Venom, the team has no time to recover—because the evil mutant team known as The Brotherhood has launched a full–scale assault on Tony Stark’s mansion! It’s Captain America vs. Sabretooth, Iron Man vs. Mystique…and Thor vs. Valkyrie? Plus: Which mega-popular character (nope, not Spidey) makes a surprise appearance on the last page?

Thoughts? What are your comments?

[Xurk]

No one's reading this comic? In the year end's list from Diamond, issue #1 of Ultimates 3 was in the Top 50 best-selling comics of the year, so I find the quietness here surprising!

This was certainly an exciting issue, but an incoherent one at that! :sweat:
First is the random insertion of Spider-Man, of whom I get they're trying to just give a fun cameo appearance, but it just feels out of place and doesn't really serve any purpose but to fill the first few pages of the book. Unless Spider-Man returns in the following parts of this story arc, in that case, I'll forgive and wait and see.

Joe Madureira continues to draw some pretty "cool" art, but it still doesn't completely fit the art this book should have [or maybe I'm just too attached to the art from the previous two volumes], as it's kind of exaggerated at times and slightly "messy" / hard to follow. But hey, the story so far is also a bit extreme at times and also hard to follow ;)
He does an excellent job at drawing "hot" women though, Valkyrie and Black Widow [Mystique] look great, I have to admit... though that shouldn't be what this book is about, gawking at the ladies in it - then again, the story's title is "Sex, Lies and Videotapes" :p

So The Brotherhood showing up was a bit strange but the fights that ensued were entertaining, as I stated above. Magneto also had some nice tense stuff going on with Quicksilver and it appears he managed to get into his head, judging from the ending... and then Wolverine shows up! So now the X-Men is in this as well!

All in all, this storyline has still not won me over; confusing storytelling, Spider-Man, The Brotherhood, X-Men... I preferred it when this book was about national and international threats and was more centered around the Ultimates own part of this universe. But hey, maybe the following issues will steer it more in that direction, so I'll just hope for the best :)

[Matt Hazuda]

No one's reading this comic?Stinky art + Loeb writing = no sale

I got the first issue out of curiosity, but Loeb has decided to completely throw out everything that came before like he normally does and instead turns it into a crappy fanfic that includes Loeb's Ultimate Avengers. Everything he has done in comics seems to get progressively worse and this is no exception to the rule.

[sleepydumbdude]

I got the first because I thought it would be good like the others. I will wait til its collected in trade now and get it from my library.

[Xurk]

ULTIMATES 3 #3

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[/URL][url=http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0208/ULTMTSV3.jpg]http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0208/ULTMTSV3_SM.jpg (http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0208/ULTMTSV3.jpg)

WRITER: Jeph Loeb
PENCILS: Joe Madureira

THE STORY: "Sex, Lies, and DVD" continues with "SIBLINGS" -- the true(?) origin of Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch! What horrible secret have these two shared and how is it now exposed? Does it hold a clue to solving the murder at the Ultimates' mansion? This issue guest stars Wolverine and uncovers the past...marching us closer to ULTIMATUM! The all-new epic saga of the Ultimates continues with superstars Jeph Loeb, Joe Madureira, and Chris Lichtner leading the way!

Thoughts? What are your comments?

[Shantosh9500]

I don't get it. How did Black Panther get back to the mansion? One minute Hawkeye was seaching for him and shooting Spider-Man leaving him for any guy to unmask him then next issue both of them are there!!!

And by the way that Wife and Kids thing was hilarious!!

[Xurk]

ULTIMATES 3 #4

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http://marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/uploaded/0.927562001197987690image_small.jpg (http://marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0308/ultmtsv3004.jpg)

WRITER: Jeph Loeb
COVER BY: Joe Madureira & Christian Lichtner
PENCILS: Joe Madureira & Christian Lichtner

THE STORY: Who rules the Savage Land? Who could possibly challenge Magneto's authority? How about the Ultimates with special guest Wolverine! Plus: back in NYC, the Wasp makes a discovery that will change everything! The most-talked-about series from superstars Jeph Loeb, Joe Madureira and Christian Lichtner charges toward Ultimatum!

Thoughts? What are your comments?

[Reed Richards]

ULTIMATES 3 #4

(Click to enlarge)

http://marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/uploaded/0.927562001197987690image_small.jpg (http://marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0308/ultmtsv3004.jpg)

WRITER: Jeph Loeb
COVER BY: Joe Madureira & Christian Lichtner
PENCILS: Joe Madureira & Christian Lichtner

THE STORY: Who rules the Savage Land? Who could possibly challenge Magneto's authority? How about the Ultimates with special guest Wolverine! Plus: back in NYC, the Wasp makes a discovery that will change everything! The most-talked-about series from superstars Jeph Loeb, Joe Madureira and Christian Lichtner charges toward Ultimatum!

Thoughts? What are your comments?

well if ultimatum is going to destroy the ultimate universe, and this is what the ultimate universe is now, then thank god its going to be gone. im not sure what Loeb has on JoeQ, but it must be darn good stuff.

[The Clown Prince]

Did Ultimates 3 #4 come out on the 12th? Marvel's website said it did, but it's not on Diamond's list for the week (http://previews.diamondcomics.com/shipping/archive/2008/031208.txt) and my comic shop never got it in. I didn't even think about about the issue until I went to see if Mavel updated their site to coincide with Diamond's shipping change for #5 (http://previewsworld.com/public/default.asp?t=1&m=1&c=6&s=462&ai=66518). Diamond says #5 comes out May 28th now intead of April 30th. But of course Marvel hasn't updated #5's shipping change.

[Xurk]

I haven't seen Ultimates 3 #4 yet either, even though according to Marvel's website it did come out on the date that I updated the talkback :confused: Strange...

As for issue #3, the emphasis chosen for this volume remains to lie on the "Sex" part of the title, with another staggering amount of large breasts on display and the silhouettes of Wolverine and Wanda & Pietro's mother making love... another aspect of this volume that re-appears here is all of these random scenes and comments... this whole mess still isn't making much sense, and we're over halfway through!! I also wish Loeb would quit giving spotlight to Wanda and Pietro's weird relationship; as has been posted before in this thread, it was fine the way it was, but the continuing references to its nature the way he's doing, is just distasteful.

In a way, I'm glad this volume only counts five issues, as it's shaping up to be a travesty of the Ultimates line. All it seems to be about is including every character known in the Ultimate Universe, showing women in sexy manners and having twists every so many pages! There's really not much of a plot anymore, which is a shame, as Ultimates 1 and 2 were great and mostly intelligent reads.

[The Clown Prince]

Well, the "curse" of The Ultimates title continues with the delays as Diamond has updated their weekly Shipping Updates section today (4/7/08 (http://previews.diamondcomics.com/public/default.asp?t=2&m=1&c=6&s=451)).

It looks like Marvel is further delaying Ultimates 3 #4 now to June 11th and Ultimates 3 #5 has been delayed to August 6th.

This clearly smells of Marvel wanting The Ultimates to lead right into Ultimatum which is expected to start in September.

The first thing you want to ask Marvel is why didn't they just release issue 1 in April and have it go right to August with issue 5 and then Ultimatum in September? Well, the original plan was to wrap The Ultimates up in April with issue 5 and start Ultimatum in May, but something happened on the creative side (Jeph Loeb) and now won't start until September. David Finch, who's drawing all 6 issues of the Ultimatum story said late last month that he was gonna start drawing Ultimatum in a couple of weeks (about now or so). Again, pointing the finger in Loeb's direction at probably not getting Finch the scripts in the original designated time.

So the frustration continues with the Ultimates title. Why Ult. Spidey, Ult. X-Men, and Ult. Fan 4 are able to put out a monthly book every month and those working on The Ultimates can't I don't think will ever fully be able to answer for themselves. For the record, Ultimate Human has been monthly as well as Ultimate Iron Man 2 with the exception of issue 5 which had the solicited 2 month gap between issues 4 and 5. We'll see about Ultimate Origins which is supposed to wrap up and be completely released before Ultimatum begins.

[Spider-Man]

Issue #4 finally arrives, according to Previews (http://previews.diamondcomics.com/public/default.asp?t=1&m=1&c=6&s=430&ai=71707)!

ULTIMATES 3 #4

http://marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/uploaded/0.927562001197987690image_small.jpg (http://marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0308/ultmtsv3004.jpg)

WRITER: Jeph Loeb
COVER BY: Joe Madureira & Christian Lichtner
PENCILS: Joe Madureira & Christian Lichtner

THE STORY: Who rules the Savage Land? Who could possibly challenge Magneto's authority? How about the Ultimates with special guest Wolverine! Plus: back in NYC, the Wasp makes a discovery that will change everything! The most-talked-about series from superstars Jeph Loeb, Joe Madureira and Christian Lichtner charges toward Ultimatum!

Comments?

[W.C.Reaf]

Well the fight scenes were a mess in the Savage Land. We had another unneeded flashback this time from Kazar telling us how Mags and Xavier came to the Savage Land and that his people are oppressed by Mags so they're fighting back against him. The Black Panther warning from Wolverine also felt useless as well as it didn't add anything that we hadn't already had.

The "Ultron" robots were kind of a good way to explain the OOC behaviour of some of the cast and why Wasp was put in charge so the team would be in disarray. But I have to question if the robots weren't like the guys they replaced why wouldn't anyone on the team notice the change over.

I also think the Valkyrie scene needed some more weight to it.

[Jin Kazama]

They're really packing way too much into this for only five issues. And not in a good way. There's no way they can wrap all of this up in issue five when it comes out in six months. :)

The only reason I'm even getting this is because it's only five issues. It's like All Star Batman and Robin, you just read it because it's a train wreck you can't turn away from.

What the hell happened to you, Loeb? If you do this crap with Captain America: White, I'll never read a thing you write ever again. Because I'm really close to it now after the last few years.

[W.C.Reaf]

Loeb's only as good as the artist he's working with. He has admitted to tailoring his writing to suit the artist he collaborates with.

So in this case it reads like a comic from the 90s because it looks like one.

I'm not making excuses for it, just giving a possible reason for it being so bad.

[Xurk]

Wow.

Okay, this is a trainwreck. I'm glad there's only one issue left, because I'm not sure if I can bring myself to watch much longer... it really is a huge shame, because the "Ultimates" title used to be one of my favourite Marvel books :sad:

If they chose to bring this thing out in the regular 12-/13-issue format instead of impossibly cramming everything into five issues, that might have solved the enormous pacing and randomness problems that re-appear each issue.

Half of the things that happened this issue made no sense at all to me and a lot of other things are just embarrassing, like the Captain Americabot quoting Schwarzenegger... :sweat:

[Spider-Man]

The conclusion has arrived!

ULTIMATES 3 #5 (of 5)


http://marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0908/ULTMTSV3005_cov_variant_sm.jpg (http://marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0908/ULTMTSV3005_cov_variant.jpg) http://marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0408/ULTMTSV3005_cov_SM.jpg (http://marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0408/ULTMTSV3005_cov.jpg)

WRITER: Jeph Loeb
COVER BY: Joe Madureira & Christian Lichtner
PENCILS: Joe Madureira & Christian Lichtner

THE STORY: This is it, the ending you've been breathlessly waiting for! Who killed the Scarlet Witch -- and why? The answers will rock you as the Ultimate Universe is about to explode! Betrayals, secrets, and even another murder are all laid bare as superstars Jeph Loeb, Joe Madureira and Christian Lichtner conclude Volume 3! But the next big Ultimates story is just beginning, as right around the corner is...Ultimatum!

Comments?

[W.C.Reaf]

THE STORY: This is it, the ending you've been breathlessly waiting for!

I haven't. I enjoyed the wait, it meant more time before I have to read Ultimatum. :p

Snark aside I'll read the issue tomorrow, but my Goddess is that a beautiful variant cover. I though it was another freaking Zombie variant but that's pretty damn good.

Except for Cap, who looks too Terminator for my tastes.

[Xurk]

The conclusion... is here?? Wow! It's unbelievable :p

And it looks like they actually got the right costumes on that cover instead of using the 616 costumes or blending them with the Ultimate ones.

[W.C.Reaf]

I've read it and was surprised by it. I enjoyed two or three pages of the art and writing, that's a step up from not liking all of it.

Good points:

I liked the explanation from Ultron tying into past events and how it thinks it became sentient. Not all of it mind you, but it's nice to se that Loeb hasn't forgotten about past events and is using them to his advantage.

The reveal of Doom at the end was good and Joe Mad did a great job on him. Him being the one behind it all also excused some of the badness from Ultron, the Scarlet Witch somehow making him sentient and 'his plan' just sucked so it's good to see that it was just what he was programmed to believe.

Despite being overrated Joe Mad draws good robots.

We finally see Wasp as some sort of leader and putting Cap in his place.

Bad points:

But said leadership still isn't seen anywhere else and only shown in one freaking panel in the five issues.

Everyone's still out of character. Loeb seems to think that changing that characters personalities and referencing backwards makes a better story than one about how the characters got to that point. I'd like to know why Pryo is with the Brotherhood (and from the looks of things a would-be rapist) rather than him just saying he used to be a good guy.

The Black Panther was apparently Cap (which everyone called from #1) and no one on the team noticed the two of them not being in the same place or on missions together. I hope the Ultimate Cap Annual is going to explain why he thought it was necessary to lie to his teammates because it added nothing to this story at all.

Joe Mad's action art is still messed up. Everything moves too fast and if I didn't know better I'd say there were a few pages missing given the incoherent mess it was.

Pretty much every complain about this series is valid for this issue. The dialog is painful at times and gut-wrenchingly poor the other times.

OH can someone explain to me what Ultron was going on about with using DNA to make better robots? Apart from the fact that it doesn't make sense it still didn't fit anywhere in the story so what was the point in even saying it.

Overall: Poor effort. If this was supposed to be set up for Ultimatum then it wasted 4 issues as it could've been told with 1. They should've given it a one-shot, add an issue to Ultimatum or tell it in Ultimate X-men as all you need was Magneto's children dying, him morning for them, deciding to take it out on humanity, and then reviling it was Doom that set it all up.

Hell you could've had it done in flashback form showing Mags telling it from beside Wanda and Quicksilver's coffins.

I'm dreading what Ultimatums going to be like.