Which episodes should have gotten the axe?

[TimTwoFace]

We all can probably agree that, while BTAS was still good, when it returned with new episodes in 1997 with a new design (and all that came with it), the show suffered a bit. The episodes, on the whole, weren't as good. Some shone brightly, others were miserable.

What would you have preferred to see in that time instead?

Here's what I say:

Well, we have 24 episodes to play with. I'd leave the following as is. Some of the episodes are only decent, but hey, you can't have all the episodes of a season to be knock-outs. These episodes just needed a little bit of touching up with the writing to make them better.

-DOUBLE TALK
-YOU SCRATCH MY BACK
-NEVER FEAR (well, I think this one is perfect)
-JOKER'S MILLIONS
-GROWING PAINS (this one is perfect, too)
-LOVE IS A CROC
-TORCH SONG
-THE ULTIMATE THRILL
-OVER THE EDGE
-MEAN SEASONS
-CULT OF THE CAT
-ANIMAL ACT
-OLD WOUNDS
-LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT
-CHEMISTRY
-BEWARE THE CREEPER
-JUDGEMENT DAY

OK, so that's 17 episodes, and 7 spaces to fill. So...

BAD EPISODES
(I wish these ones never made it to air - they were either pointless, trivial, or just all-out bad)
HOLIDAY KNIGHTS
GIRLS NIGHT OUT
CRITTERS
THE DEMON WITHIN


And here's what I'd like them to be replaced with:
SINS OF THE FATHER
-This episode deserved to be a two-parter. It was way too rushed, especially when you're introducing a new staple like Tim Drake. This episode was rather average in the end, which is sad, considering how tightly these characters are related. And as for Two-Face...he's become a stock villain like the Joker has in so many episodes now, and that's not cool, either. I say get rid of HOLIDAY KNIGHTS and make SINS OF THE FATHER a two-part episode.

MAD LOVE
-Still a good episode, but it would have been much better if it was elaborated into a great 2-part episode, with the break between the two right where Harley breaks the Joker out of Arkham for the first time. It was originally planned to be a 2-parter, but it never happened. Why? This is easily one of the best stories in animated history, and could have easily been an animated movie. I felt a little gypped when the episode came out - it's good, but not great. Get rid of GIRLS NIGHT OUT and replace it with this episode.

A RIDDLER EPISODE
-Replace the gawd-awful CRITTERS with a much better episode dedicated to telling a story about the Riddler. He got the short end of the stick in the later episodes, making three very forgetable cameos. Ugh.

COLD COMFORT
Mr. Freeze episodes can actually stink. I didn't think so either, but then I saw this one. Freeze needed his own episode, but this one was rather poor - it just needed to be written better.

A PENGUIN EPISODE
Anyone even like that THE DEMON WITHIN? I thought it was utterly pointless, despite the great animation. I would have liked to see a Penguin story here - how did he get to be the owner of the Iceburg Lounge? What is his animated origin, anyway? (He's the only villain in BTAS to still be origin-less right now). I would have much preferred to see this.

What does everyone else think? I know this is all trivial since it's in the past now, but what would you have wanted?

-Tim

[Borg4of3]

1 - PENGUIN: I completely agree that these the Penguin should have gotten a spotlight episode! He may probably have the most cameos, but he was never the focus. However, the Ridder's new design was enough to say that Riddler's Reform is enough of a conclusion for Ridder and leave it at that.

2 - BANE: IMO, he was never introduced as the pure anti-Batman that he could be. Intelligent, strong, crafted an ingenious plan to lure Batman - instead in BTAS we get a watered down wrestler and in BTNS he's all muscle with no sign of real intelligence except in short slants of demonically evil dialogue. His origin story mirrors Batman's so much that its a shame they didn't really investigate in this.

3 - POISON IVY: In my opinion, she hasn't gotten a truly decent episode yet! Kickbutt villain, mediocre stories. She deserves an ep!

4 - MYSTERY: Any noir type mystery episode would have been great. Maybe an episode that dealt with Batman solving the mystery of his parent's murder and finding out who did it?

And I would have left these alone-
MAD LOVE
HOLIDAY KNIGHTS
SINS OF THE FATHER

[The Game]

Funny- I actually liked most the eps you didn't for various reasons- but Critters would be one to go. I'd just get rid of some lame villains like Roxy Rocket and The Ultimate Thrill before Holiday Knights (which I loved).

BANE- Needed like a major two-parter during which he "breaks" Batman? Maybe not, but I think Bane should have gotten a decent shot in his kick-ass TNBA revamp with sick "Knightfall"-like storyline. All he got was "Bane" in B:TAS, a brief cameo in "Knight Time" and was part of a dream sequence in "Over the Edge". He's my favorite villain (well he's up there) and I would have loved to see him have a classic ep like Two-Face and Freeze have had.

RIDDLER- Edward Nygma is far and away the villain that got the most screwed in TNBA. He had three lame appearences, and that's it. THAT'S IT! I think he needed at least one more strong episode like "Riddler's Reform"- he just deserves more since he's such a great villain. He's hard to write for, but defintley one of the best when done well.

PENGUIN- I echo what's been said about the Penguin- he's one of Batman's top villains, but like some others, he has yet to have a "great" or "defining" episode. So much could have been done with him, I would have liked to see how he gained control of the Iceberg Lounge and went "legit".

And others...?

Cold Comfort sucked- if they couldn't do anything good with Freeze they should have left it alone at SubZero, which was a great climax to Batman vs. Freeze.

Ah well. I'll get some more changes when I get some sleep.

[zmanjz]

Is this the one with the News Reporter that gets exposed to the Joker chemicals, but turns into a mad-Harley-Obsessed-Wacko-super-semi-hero?

I thought that this was one of the funniest batman episodes. especially that part where he uses batman's signature move on batman (you know, a person's walking up from behind, and batman usually throws an L shaped punch backwards into the badguy's face.)

I laughed so hard when the creeper did that to batman, also the part where he was trying to choose a costume, Oh my god it was truly funny.

Personally, I would have liked to see him again. I know it's a rather goofy episode for Batman, but it made for a nice variety.

[The Dark Knight]

Originally posted by Borg4of3
2 - BANE: IMO, he was never introduced as the pure anti-Batman that he could be. Intelligent, strong, crafted an ingenious plan to lure Batman - instead in BTAS we get a watered down wrestler and in BTNS he's all muscle with no sign of real intelligence except in short slants of demonically evil dialogue. His origin story mirrors Batman's so much that its a shame they didn't really investigate in this.

Really? I thought "Bane" was one of the best episodes of the series.


Originally posted by Borg4of3
4 - MYSTERY: Any noir type mystery episode would have been great. Maybe an episode that dealt with Batman solving the mystery of his parent's murder and finding out who did it?

I really have to disagree with you on that point. I have no problem with mystery episodes, but if Batman found out who killed his parents it would ruin the entire show. The fact that Batman never knows is what makes him go out every night. He's avenging his parents murder with every criminal he stops and every murder he prevents. If he somehow finally got the revenge he craved then there would be no point to go out as Batman. There would be no driving force behind the character. He's out there not because he wants to be, but because he has to be.

The episodes I would get rid of:
- "Critters" - I can only assume the writers were drunk to an obscene degree when they came up with this.
- "Growing Pains" - Did they think it was a good idea to ruin Clayface by removing all of his emotions and turning him into some uncaring monster? I thought he was supposed to be a victim. I actually cared about him in previous episodes, but his portrayal in "Growing Pains" warranted no sympathy.
- "Cold Comfort" - His wife finally wakes from her frozen state and he doesn't go see her? I don't buy it. She should have never come out in the first place, and the fact that he's just a head doesn't help me like this episode either.
- "The Demon Within" - I don't know why magic was handled so badly in this episode. I didn't question Karkull in S: TAS, but this just didn't work at all. I didn't believe it for one second, and I didn't find it entertaining to watch Batman fighting a little witch boy either.


There are more, but I think these are the episodes I find most offensive.

[Borg4of3]

Alrighty, rewatching Bane, its not all that bad. It did capture quite a few plot elements from Knightfall, and did make him one heckuvan intelligent fighter. I guess I was just hoping for a huge compression of the whole Knightfall storyline (a very silly assumpion, I admit in hindsight). I wanted an Arkham breakout, the revelation of Bane's childhood, Bane knowing who Batman really was, the Riddler's cameo, etc. I apologize - Chalk my disappointment up to hype and anticipation... Still, I would like another Bane focus ep!

As for the mystery thing, I really just tossed that out of my butt. What I really meant was a mystery of great merit or importance, something along the lines of Officer Down, or Bruce Wayne: Fugitive. Neither of those stories I'd really want done animated , but something as powerful, epic, or character-driven as those.

And I didn't dislike Growing Pains despite the murder of Clayface's character. The animation quality of the entire work was just... it was like seeing BTAS quality with BTNS designs. And while we all felt nothing but disappointment for Clayface, the characterization of Robin and Annie were really powerful.

[The Dark Knight]

People seem to generally like "Growing Pains" so I guess I'm in the minority on that one. Though I would have liked episodes like the ones you are describing, i'm pretty happy with all the episodes we got in B: TAS.

And slightly off topic, in case any of you were wondering, if there was an episode I could have dipped in bronze and shown off as the greatest 20 minutes in Batman history, it would be "Joker's Favor".

But back to episodes we hate, TNBA has some, but I find it hard to come up with an episode I would completely get rid of from the B: TAS run.

[optimal321]

I loved Growing Pains and Holiday Knights, so i would keep those. I would agree to throw Critters out and replace w/ either a Penguin or Riddler ep. Cold Comfort definately needed some revision. It was a good idea to put Freeze in TNBA, but this ep stunk it up.

I agree that Sins of the Father and Mad Love might have been better as two-parters.

And for some reason, i enjoyed The Demon Within. As much as i would want other eps, i wouldn't want this to go.

Another thing i would have done differently is the flashback sequence in Old Wounds. I would have made Batman and Batgirl in their BTAS costumes, and have the BTAS batmobile. I think it'd be cool to imagine Bruce making his suit darker because of what happened w/ Dick. And honestly, the Joker really didn't have to be the villian. Here we could have seen Nygma in his BTAS costume somehow change to his TNBA look.

But maybe i'm just dreaming... :p

[TimTwoFace]

As for the Joker in OLD WOUNDS, he sort of did have to be the villain there, unfortunately. That episode, and SINS OF THE FATHER, were based on the LOST YEARS miniseries and they pretty much followed it word for word.

As for Bane, I would have loved to see another solo-Bane episode, but the problem was that after the first 65 episodes of BTAS were created, Bane just made his first appearance in the comics. I was happy with what he got in OVER THE EDGE - he got to be a part of, arguably, the coolest part of that ep.

Hey, Poison Ivy had some great episodes! What are you talking about? PRETTY POISON, HARLEY & IVY, and HOUSE AND GARDEN were all good - at least I thought so. :)

As for the Penguin, the closest we got to a Penguin episode was "The Ultimate Thrill", which is why I kept it on my list. Besides, Roxy wasn't that bad - it was just a fun episode, and I think it delivered.

One episode of the new series I would keep but think needs serious work is JOKER'S MILLIONS...good idea, but very lame pay-off. *SIGH*

I can name a few episodes I'd get rid of from the original BTAS run, and those would be:

-THE CAT AND THE CLAW (Pt. 2) - This episode needs to be rewritten - it doesn't do any justice to part one.
-MOON OF THE WOLF (ugh)
-THE CAPE AND COWL CONSPIRACY (not very engaging)
-FEAT OF CLAY (Pt. 1) - it just needs to be touched up, so it can match the quality of part 2
-I'VE GOT BATMAN IN MY BASEMENT (Batman vs the Penguin with a SCREWDRIVER? Bah!)
-THE UNDER-DWELLERS
-HEART OF STEEL (Pt. 1, 2) (I saw 2001, thank you)
-HARLEQUINADE (flashes of brilliance amidst a lot of crud)
-MAKE 'EM LAUGH (make it more twisted and it would be better)
-THE TERRIBLE TRIO

Uhhh, that's pretty much it.

-Tim

[Naraht]

It should be noted....that the Creeper...was @ one point going to be part of the Bat Team....

Be thankful he wasn't....

>=p

[TimTwoFace]

Yeah, for sure, that wouldn't have been cool. His one appearance was fine.

-Tim

[James Harvey]

The two episodes that really bug me and should be chopped up, burned, and forgotten are Critters and I've Got A Batman In My Basement. Replace "Basement" with a proper introduction to Penguin, and that would've been so much better. Use the space left over by critters to expand on one of the episode which needed it - like Sins of the Father or Mad Love.

[Failure]

Critters should never have seen daylight. I thought Torch Song and Roxy Rocket eps were bad too. And personally I despised Legends of the Dark Knight, even though a lot of people seemed to love it.

I think they should've adapted most of, if not all, of the Lost Years series. Sins of the Father and Old Wounds should have been connected in a massive 4 or 5 parter.

Growing Pains was one of my favorite eps, in terms of pure emotional impact, I don't think any of the TNBA eps comes close to matching the last 10-15 minutes of Growing Pains. It was just intense.

I must also be one of the few who liked The Demon Within. The story may have been pointless, but the animation! God, the animation!

Mad Love was probably my favorite TNBA ep, I think that was well done, I'm not sure how they could've stretched it to a 2 parter. The only qualm I had about it was they left out the part where while driving to Harley, Joker's thinking about what all the other criminals would say if Harley killed Batman.

[Toddman]

Originally posted by TimTwoFace
We all can probably agree that, while BTAS was still good, when it returned with new episodes in 1997 with a new design (and all that came with it), the show suffered a bit. The episodes, on the whole, weren't as good. Some shone brightly, others were miserable.



Sorry, I can't even agree with that statement, much less decide how I would change some of the particular episodes from the TNBA run.

I don't think that the show suffered at all. It was intentionally different than BTAS. Different does not equal better or worse.

TNBA focused more on action and there was a bolder sense of graphic design, but I don't think that the quality suffered at all.

The writing was suited to the concept of the series, just as the writing of BTAS was suited to that series. Yeah, there are some TNBA episodes that needed help*, but there were also episodes of BTAS that needed it, too.

And the animation of TNBA was great in some episodes but not in others. The same thing can be said about BTAS.

Certain characters never got the treatment they deserved in either series. I for one, thought that the Joker was much better portrayed in TNBA than he was in BTAS. The only exception was his role in "Mask of the Phantasm." Even "Joker's Favor" ended with him cornered in an alley by Charlie, screaming for Batman to come and save him. Bleh!

It's just my own opinion, but I don't think the series suffered one tiny bit.

Toddman

*Poor "Critters"--it seems obvious to me that this story was meant to be very tongue-in-cheek, perhaps an homage to the 1960's Batman series, but there was something lost in the translation along the way of it's production. The end result came off as a seriously themed episode w/a ridiculous premise and absurd villian, rather than a parody of a ridiculous premise and absurd villian.

[metaphysician]

Originally posted by TimTwoFace
As for the Joker in OLD WOUNDS, he sort of did have to be the villain there, unfortunately. That episode, and SINS OF THE FATHER, were based on the LOST YEARS miniseries and they pretty much followed it word for word.

As for Bane, I would have loved to see another solo-Bane episode, but the problem was that after the first 65 episodes of BTAS were created, Bane just made his first appearance in the comics. I was happy with what he got in OVER THE EDGE - he got to be a part of, arguably, the coolest part of that ep.

Hey, Poison Ivy had some great episodes! What are you talking about? PRETTY POISON, HARLEY & IVY, and HOUSE AND GARDEN were all good - at least I thought so. :)

As for the Penguin, the closest we got to a Penguin episode was "The Ultimate Thrill", which is why I kept it on my list. Besides, Roxy wasn't that bad - it was just a fun episode, and I think it delivered.

One episode of the new series I would keep but think needs serious work is JOKER'S MILLIONS...good idea, but very lame pay-off. *SIGH*

I can name a few episodes I'd get rid of from the original BTAS run, and those would be:

-THE CAT AND THE CLAW (Pt. 2) - This episode needs to be rewritten - it doesn't do any justice to part one.
-MOON OF THE WOLF (ugh)
-THE CAPE AND COWL CONSPIRACY (not very engaging)
-FEAT OF CLAY (Pt. 1) - it just needs to be touched up, so it can match the quality of part 2
-I'VE GOT BATMAN IN MY BASEMENT (Batman vs the Penguin with a SCREWDRIVER? Bah!)
-THE UNDER-DWELLERS
-HEART OF STEEL (Pt. 1, 2) (I saw 2001, thank you)
-HARLEQUINADE (flashes of brilliance amidst a lot of crud)
-MAKE 'EM LAUGH (make it more twisted and it would be better)
-THE TERRIBLE TRIO

Uhhh, that's pretty much it.

-Tim

The trouble with ditching Heart of Steel is that it is a prerequisite for His Silicon Soul, one of the best episodes in the entire series.

[TheScarecrow]

I think the area that TNBA really suffered in was some of the new and weak character designs, namely Joker's new look, which just looked like crap from the start. Why they didn't think of the BB: ROTJ design before when they launched TNBA is beyond me.

And while I understand getting rid of Penguin's Batman Returns look from BTAS, it just didn't make much sense unless he had major plastic surgery before he went legit (maybe they should've implored that possiblity).

The only ep's I felt could've been done away with are Critters and Cold Comfort.

Critters could've been replaced with a Riddler ep that had him doing more then just standing around like an idiot.

Cold Comfort could've been replaced by a part two of one of the episodes that TimTwoFace said needed to be two parters, like Sins Of The Father, or Mad Love.

[Toddman]

Originally posted by TheScarecrow
I think the area that TNBA really suffered in was some of the new and weak character designs, namely Joker's new look, which just looked like crap from the start. Why they didn't think of the BB: ROTJ design before when they launched TNBA is beyond me.


Some of the designs for TNBA were not well recieved by some of the fans, however, I think that there were some designs that really took advantage of the TNBA look. I personally loved the newer designs for the Scarecrow, Bane and Batgirl.

Toddman

[Palin Dromos]

A thought on "Cold Comfort."

While yes, it was an unfortunate departure form a truly great characterization. this ep did set the good Doctor up for a truly great comeback in...

"Meltdown" my favorite BB ep. Freeze was totally redeemed in this ep.

Okay so anyway yeah toss out "Critters" and give us a Riddler ep, though I liked his redesign even less than Joker's.

I had some other stuff to say but I've now forgotten it.

Oh well.

[Apache Chief]

Anything with that insufferable Baby Doll character. :mad:

[Good Ol' Batmanuel!]

I agree with you on some of them, such as "Girls Night Out" (pointless) and "Critters" (just plain odd!), but my view on "bad" Batman episodes is kinda like the old Star Trek one, that even a "bad" episode is still good. You dig?

[TimTwoFace]

True, some of the "bad" episodes I listed from the original episodes are still decent, but could have easily been replaced with something better. Not that I'm complaining...it's like with the Simpsons - if you can declare 80% of the series as being "an episode you love", then that's a pretty fine accomplishment. BTAS is in the same boat.

:)

-Tim