Why Is The Video Game Industry So Whiny?

[HG Revolution]

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=8485917&publicUserId=5379799

Yes. Manhunt 2 was rated more strictly than the original Manhunt. You know what else? Scary Movie 2 was rated more strictly than the original Scary Movie. And last time I checked, the edited R-rated Scary Movie 2 DVDs did not have a code which could give you the unedited version.

[EscaflownePilot]

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=8485917&publicUserId=5379799

Yes. Manhunt 2 was rated more strictly than the original Manhunt. You know what else? Scary Movie 2 was rated more strictly than the original Scary Movie. And last time I checked, the edited R-rated Scary Movie 2 DVDs did not have a code which could give you the unedited version.Here's the thing - when a movie gets a higher rating than it deserves or is edited for its original release in today's market, 95% of the time it will be released uncut on DVD, and those rare instances that it isn't, it is wholly in the control of the original creators and the DVD label that releases it. Scary Movie 2 is the exception, not the rule, and there's no reason whatsoever it couldn't be released uncut in the future - heck, seems like a great way to repackage an older release like so many studios love to do.

But when a video game gets edited? You'll probably never get to play that game uncut - in a few instances like Manhunt 2, you may be able to remove the edits by hacking the game (which typically requires you to break the law in the process) - but that's very rare. And Manhunt 2 just happened to be edited in such a way that it was possible - if actual resources were removed from the disc itself, it would take a lot more than a simple filter-removal hack to restore the edits.

And unlike movies, if a game gets an AO rating, it cannot be released. Not on consoles, anyway. The ability to get a game on store shelves rests entirely upon the ESRB - they have all the power. If they don't like a game for any reason (like, for example, Manhunt 2) all they have to do is rate it AO, and it won't get released. Period. There's no "straight to video" or "uncut director's edition" option available to them - Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft won't allow the game on their systems, and no store will sell it, period. Doesn't matter if the rating is fair - the ESRB decides, ultimately, what gets sold and to whom. The MPAA may be inconsistent, and their decisions may keep a movie out of theaters, but they don't have the kind of power to keep a movie from being released at all.

[HG Revolution]

Here's the thing - when a movie gets a higher rating than it deserves or is edited for its original release in today's market, 95% of the time it will be released uncut on DVD, and those rare instances that it isn't, it is wholly in the control of the original creators and the DVD label that releases it. Scary Movie 2 is the exception, not the rule, and there's no reason whatsoever it couldn't be released uncut in the future - heck, seems like a great way to repackage an older release like so many studios love to do.

But when a video game gets edited? You'll probably never get to play that game uncut - in a few instances like Manhunt 2, you may be able to remove the edits by hacking the game (which typically requires you to break the law in the process) - but that's very rare. And Manhunt 2 just happened to be edited in such a way that it was possible - if actual resources were removed from the disc itself, it would take a lot more than a simple filter-removal hack to restore the edits.

And unlike movies, if a game gets an AO rating, it cannot be released. Not on consoles, anyway. The ability to get a game on store shelves rests entirely upon the ESRB - they have all the power. If they don't like a game for any reason (like, for example, Manhunt 2) all they have to do is rate it AO, and it won't get released. Period. There's no "straight to video" or "uncut director's edition" option available to them - Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft won't allow the game on their systems, and no store will sell it, period. Doesn't matter if the rating is fair - the ESRB decides, ultimately, what gets sold and to whom. The MPAA may be inconsistent, and their decisions may keep a movie out of theaters, but they don't have the kind of power to keep a movie from being released at all.

Manhunt 2 is also an exception. The AO rating might be unfair, but other than this one Manhunt 2 controversy (and the AO content is still available under an M-rating now), has it ever been used or even threatened for 99.99999% of all games released?

Rockstar needs to accept this: their game is now on sale at many retailers, with all the AO content hidden intact. It was inevitable that given the complaints about the first one, the sequel would go under more scrutiny. And even under that scrutiny, they got their game out to the world as they intended. Good for them; they were crafty about it and shouldn't be complaining anymore.

That said, complaining about this is much smarter than them suing EA for the Grand Theft Scratchy parody.

[MattThomasM2B]

Well this looks like a pretty open and shut thread, heh.

Let me pluck Manhunt 2 'The Unrated Edition' from a Wal-Mart shelf (the same place I can get Saw and Hostel?)and maybe drawing a line to movies would be justified.

Also, I don't see what's so crafty about people having to hack the game. Not press a special sequence of buttons. Opening up the game's files and editing them.

[HG Revolution]

Let me pluck Manhunt 2 'The Unrated Edition' from a Wal-Mart shelf (the same place I can get Saw and Hostel?)and maybe drawing a line to movies would be justified.

The "unrated edition" of Manhunt 2 is on the same disc as the rated version. It's available to the public completely intact, just as one would want. Just a bit rougher to get to, thats all.

Look, I think restrictions on the AO rating are completely idiotic too. But outside of Manhunt 2 (which has the originally-AO content in a hack), The Punisher (which there IS an unrated edition of), the first edition of San Andreas (which interestingly enough was rated AO for hidden content, while Manhunt 2 has gotten away with AO-rated hidden content in the M version), Kill Thrill (which was 10 years ago), and H-games (which are all for the PC anyway) has the AO been used or even threatened to be used at all?

[Tommy Lawson]

Manhunt 2 is also an exception. The AO rating might be unfair, but other than this one Manhunt 2 controversy (and the AO content is still available under an M-rating now), has it ever been used or even threatened for 99.99999% of all games released?

Rockstar needs to accept this: their game is now on sale at many retailers, with all the AO content hidden intact. It was inevitable that given the complaints about the first one, the sequel would go under more scrutiny. And even under that scrutiny, they got their game out to the world as they intended. Good for them; they were crafty about it and shouldn't be complaining anymore.

That said, complaining about this is much smarter than them suing EA for the Grand Theft Scratchy parody.

Target, a huge retailer, has removed Manhunt 2 for sale from their stores, and after the Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas Hot Coffee fiasco in 2005, you can bet Target is heavily weighing the benefits versus risks of selling Grand Theft Auto IV next year. Sure, the game will initally sell tons, but if there's hidden content that somehow made its way into the game and unlocked, another Hot Coffee fiasco could occur. I'm sure Target is wondering that just because the game will initially be rated "M" for Mature, if it's going to stay that way.

[HG Revolution]

Target, a huge retailer, has removed Manhunt 2 for sale from their stores, and after the Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas Hot Coffee fiasco in 2005, you can bet Target is heavily weighing the benefits versus risks of selling Grand Theft Auto IV next year. Sure, the game will initally sell tons, but if there's hidden content that somehow made its way into the game and unlocked, another Hot Coffee fiasco could occur. I'm sure Target is wondering that just because the game will initially be rated "M" for Mature, if it's going to stay that way.

Yeah, Target removed Manhunt 2. M-rated Manhunt 2. They're probably more concerned about the game itself. Whether that's warranted or not, it doesn't have to do with the rating exactly.

[EscaflownePilot]

Manhunt 2 is also an exception. The AO rating might be unfair, but other than this one Manhunt 2 controversy (and the AO content is still available under an M-rating now), has it ever been used or even threatened for 99.99999% of all games released?The modern video game industry is barely 40 years old. The ESRB itself is only about 13 years old. Did you really expect this sort of thing to be commonplace already in such a young industry?

Yes, Manhunt 2 is the exception, for now. But look at the videos, and listen to the critics - there is little in Manhunt 2 that isn't in Manhunt, yet Manhunt 2 was deemed inappropriate for sale for a mass audience if left uncut. This means there is the potential for the ESRB to do such a thing to any other high-end M rated game if the ESRB wants to prove the point again. Manhunt 2 may seem minor to many people, especially since the game itself hasn't been universally well received for its gameplay and graphics, but how many of you would be so forgiving if this were Halo 3? Metal Gear Solid 4? Devil May Cry 4? This sort of thing almost always starts small. And, honestly, how did you all expect this sort of thing to start? Twenty games at a time?

I'm not going to say the ESRB is going to go all Nazi now and start giving every game out there an AO rating just because they want to prove a point, but the simple fact is that the ESRB has a lot of power, and the ESRB reviewers have shown that they can develop an agenda and rate a game harshly based on proving that point. Yes, I know, it takes three reviewers to reach consensus for a game to receive a rating... but then, how hard can it be to find three people who all want to prove a point against the big bad shock jocks like Rockstar amongst a board of content reviewers, many of whom are parents and school teachers?

And here's another reason it's important to complain about this - the AO rating has basically been banned by retailers and game system manufacturers since its inception, under the guise that it would be used only on blatantly pornographic games - meaning they had no conceivable artistic value, and in general would be sexually oriented games that would serve no purpose to a general audience to begin with. That is, in a nutshell, how the ESRB has sold the AO rating to everybody - Nintendo, Sony, Sega, Microsoft, parents, retailers, etc. That is why almost nobody will publish, license, or sell an AO game. And up until The Punisher and Manhunt 2, every AO game has been rated as such because of sexually pornographic content, not violence.

But now we have Manhunt 2, a "normal", wide audience title. You can call it torture porn, sure, but ultimately there's nothing in Manhunt 2 that should take it out of Wal-Mart or Target and into a porn retailer - which is really the kind of game everybody expects out of the AO rating. I highly doubt Microsoft or Sony or Nintendo would have a ban on AO games if they actually thought it could be given regularly to games like Manhunt. I'd bet they were all sold on the rating being for strip poker and Japanese hentai games and the like - titles they wouldn't lose anything on by not supporting.

But here we have it on Manhunt 2. And while I bet Sony and Nintendo realize fully well that Manhunt 2 doesn't deserve the rating and realize that the ESRB sold them on the AO rating deceitfully, they now have to stand by their ban because not only were THEY duped into buying the AO rating as a rating for outright porn, but so have parents and retailers. So even if the publishers and licensors realize that the AO rating is bunk, they can't just flip-flop and support an AO game after saying they wouldn't, because it demeans their standards as companies in front of parents and retailers.

It also shows a lack of trust in the ESRB ratings system, which Nintendo and Sony can't really afford to show, even if a lack of trust is justified. Because if Sony and Nintendo and other retailers and manufacturers don't trust the ESRB, parents are likely to distrust the ESRB, and if they don't trust the ESRB, then parents are far less likely to buy any video game that isn't an absolute sure bet that it's clean. This means fewer sales and bad publicity all around.

So, we have a flawed ratings system and inaccurate perceptions of its ratings all over the place, yet nobody can argue against the system and everybody has to support it. This puts all the power into the ESRB, which is a very bad thing. Even if you AGREE with the AO Manhunt decision, you should never expect a ratings organization like the ESRB to be fair and consistent because they rarely are, and its never good for so much power to be in such flaky and unpredictable hands.

That's why I think this is a big deal. I think a stink deserves to be raised about this because, whether you agree with this decision or not, NOW is the time to press the ESRB into creating more consistent and transparent standards. Now is the time to convince retailers, parents, and publishers that the AO rating is very different than what the ESRB has originally sold it as. And now is the time to fix all that is broken, while it still is just one or two games... not later, when its gone well beyond control.

[HG Revolution]

The modern video game industry is barely 40 years old. The ESRB itself is only about 13 years old. Did you really expect this sort of thing to be commonplace already in such a young industry?

13 years into the MPAA's history, X ratings being given to non-pornographic films was already a frequent occurrence (i.e. Midnight Cowboy, Beyond the Valley of the Dolls, A Clockwork Orange, The Last Tango in Paris, Street Fighter, some Ralph Bakshi movies, edits had to be made to gain R ratings for Taxi Driver, Friday the 13th, etc.). And this was before DVDs could make such content easily accessible. The ESRB is already shown to have a head-start over the MPAA.