4Kids Q307 Earnings Report Funhouse w/ clowns and puppets

[livingfruitvirus]

The consensus of the 2 analysts covering KDE for 3rd quarter 2007 is a per share value of $-.14.

And now, the earnings:


4 KIDS ENTERTAINMENT INC (KDE): * Third quarter per share loss $0.31 from continuing operations * Third quarter revenue $12.2 million * Reuters Estimates third quarter earnings per share view $-0.15, revenue view $14.00 millionFinal earnings per share: $-.31. So they missed the estimates by a whopping 17 cents.


Net revenues in the third quarter of 2007 totaled $12.2 million from continuing operations as compared to $17.6 million for the same period in 2006. The Company's net loss for the quarter ended September 30, 2007 was $(4.2) million, or $(0.31) per diluted share (consisting of a loss from continuing operations of $(4.2) million, or $(0.31) per diluted share) as compared to a net loss of approximately $(265,000), or $(0.02) per diluted share, in the same period in 2006 (consisting of a loss from continuing operations for the third quarter of 2006 of $(231,000), or $(0.02) per diluted share and a loss from discontinued operations of $(34,000), or $(0.00) per diluted share). The diluted weighted average common shares outstanding for the quarter ended September 30, 2007 was 13,211,222 shares compared with 13,100,477 shares for the same period in 2006. The Company has reported the results of Summit Media, its media buying subsidiary, as a discontinued operation since its operation ceased in June 2006.

[DrTooth]

And these people are the ones who are going to do Kid's WB from now on.....





yeah.

[Jyose]

Wow, the loss of Pokemon really had a huge effect on them.

[Lutochris]

I don't understand most of that. Just tell me how long till we can pop the bankruptcy champagne.

[CyberCubed]

I don't understand most of that. Just tell me how long till we can pop the bankruptcy champagne.

Why do people still say this when they are now going to be programming the WB morning block for 5 YEARS?

More people tune in to channel 11 than 5, 4kids revenue will probably improve especially if they get WB's shows.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

A $4.2 million loss is certainly good news. It's the first of many steps to 4Kids finally going out of business.

[D Dubbs]

A $4.2 million loss is certainly good news. It's the first of many steps to 4Kids finally going out of business.

I don't understand this "4Kids needs to suffer a painful death" mentality. Yeah, they've done some unlikeable things in the past, but what have they done in the last year that's so horrible? Currently, they're putting most of their focus towards their original productions. The one exception is Dinosaur King, and even that has a decent dub.

Anyway, this news isn't too surprising. The third quarter wasn't anything special for 4Kids. It'll be interesting to see how things go for them in 2008, though. They've got the Chaotic TCG that's just been released, the Dinosaur King video game coming out, the new TMNT in production, and control over two Saturday morning blocks starting in the fall.

[J'onn J'onzz]

I don't understand this "4Kids needs to suffer a painful death" mentality. Yeah, they've done some unlikeable things in the past, but what have they done in the last year that's so horrible? Currently, they're putting most of their focus towards their original productions. The one exception is Dinosaur King, and even that has a decent dub.

Anyway, this news isn't too surprising. The third quarter wasn't anything special for 4Kids. It'll be interesting to see how things go for them in 2008, though. They've got the Chaotic TCG that's just been released, the Dinosaur King video game coming out, the new TMNT in production, and control over two Saturday morning blocks starting in the fall.
I think it stems from:

a) A desire to see the company put out of its misery. They're just kind of meandering at this point, and most of the stuff they make nowadays isn't that good.
b) A desire to see TMNT and other 4kids products and shows be picked up by a better company.
c) Bitterness over past dubs.
and/or
d) A hatred of Al Khan for remarks such as "kids don't read".

[Harlan_Phoenix]

As disagreeable as some of their practices may be, it's a little harsh to enjoy people losing their jobs. I'm sure quite a few of the 4Kids employees are honest, hard working people.

[Light Lucario]

I don't understand this "4Kids needs to suffer a painful death" mentality. Yeah, they've done some unlikeable things in the past, but what have they done in the last year that's so horrible? Currently, they're putting most of their focus towards their original productions. The one exception is Dinosaur King, and even that has a decent dub.

I agree. I can understand why people do seriously dislike 4Kids and what they've done in the past, but wishing their company to suffer a long and horrible death is going overboard. There are people who run this company who need to support themselves and their families. Whether you have problems with what they're doing, it isn't illegal. Just really questionable choices, in some cases. If you don't like the company and/or what it is doing, then just don't support it. Besides, most of what they've done this year has been fine.


Anyway, this news isn't too surprising. The third quarter wasn't anything special for 4Kids. It'll be interesting to see how things go for them in 2008, though. They've got the Chaotic TCG that's just been released, the Dinosaur King video game coming out, the new TMNT in production, and control over two Saturday morning blocks starting in the fall.

It will be interesting to see how they'll do in the fall. It seems like those new products and shows, epsecially the new TMNT and their second Saturday morning block, will probably be helpful. Especially considering how popular TMNT and a few shows on KidsWB are at the moment.

[Rahxepy]

Well according to Al Khan in his conference call, The new TMNT is going to air on CW this fall as well as A New Yu-Gi-Oh series.

[D Dubbs]

Well according to Al Khan in his conference call, The new TMNT is going to air on CW this fall as well as A New Yu-Gi-Oh series.

Wow...really? A new Yu-Gi-Oh! series...

Awesome. (Please let it be an adaptation of Yu-Gi-Oh R)

[Andrew T. Hingson]

A new YGO series? Do you suppose he means the next season of YGO GX or is 4kids cooking up another YGO like Capsule Monsters? And shouldn't that stay on 4kidsTV: The Game Station being as it's about a card game? Or perhaps they aren't going to keep up that marketing in 2008-2009.

Awesome that TMNT will air on CW. It's bound to get better ratings there. If they team it up with Spider-Man it'll be a New York comic book heroes power hour of epic proportions.

[D Dubbs]

A new YGO series? Do you suppose he means the next season of YGO GX or is 4kids cooking up another YGO like Capsule Monsters? And shouldn't that stay on 4kidsTV: The Game Station being as it's about a card game? Or perhaps they aren't going to keep up that marketing in 2008-2009.

It makes sense to move their more successful franchises over to the CW. But then again, they probably should balance out the content between the two blocks...

Regardless, 4Kids certainly has a big task ahead of them. It'll be interesting to see what happens when we get to Fall of 2008.

[Shredder565]

So, if that's the case with only NEW episodes of TMNT being on CW, then will the 4Kids Game Station get 'classic' reruns?


Now that my HDTV TV Tuner seems fully operational again, one can only hope..

[Andrew T. Hingson]

Hmm... according to the conference call they're porting The Game Station to CW.

Uh oh...

[Pomegranate]

I'm glad they lost $4.2 million! I can't see why both Fox and Time Warner are still helping 4Kids, even though they've no idea how to run a business what so ever. Most of their shows are of inferior quality, they refuse to release uncut versions of their foreign properties even though it would help them escape the current situation they're in and their "kids don't read" remark really ticked us off as well.

I really hope that Chaotic TCG sells extremely poorly, so it could teach Disney a very important lesson about paying attention to their original animation department and the neglected media libraries they own lock, stock and barrel and also that somebody with compassion, like Navarre or ADV, will absorb 4Kids much sooner and their foreign properties will also probably get uncut versions immediately in the process.

[D Dubbs]

Hmm... according to the conference call they're porting The Game Station to CW.

Uh oh...

Okay...that still doesn't tell us much though. There's a long time between now and September 2008, which means they're still probably working out their scheduling options. Let's wait and see before any negative conclusions arise...

[Undrave]

I'd say that most of us asking for the death of 4Kids would be much happier if they actually reformed instead (and maybe changed name to get a clean slate).

Basically only the higher ups need firing, not all the crew.

[RomanMack]

I'm glad they lost $4.2 million! I can't see why both Fox and Time Warner are still helping 4Kids, even though they've no idea how to run a business what so ever. Most of their shows are of inferior quality, they refuse to release uncut versions of their foreign properties even though it would help them escape the current situation they're in and their "kids don't read" remark really ticked us off as well.

I really hope that Chaotic TCG sells extremely poorly, so it could teach Disney a very important lesson about paying attention to their original animation department and the neglected media libraries they own lock, stock and barrel and also that somebody with compassion, like Navarre or ADV, will absorb 4Kids much sooner and their foreign properties will also probably get uncut versions immediately in the process.A prime example right here. :shrug:

[Light Lucario]

Wow...really? A new Yu-Gi-Oh! series...

Awesome. (Please let it be an adaptation of Yu-Gi-Oh R)

That alone sounds awsome to me. It would be so cool if is an adaptation of Yu-Gi-Oh! R. I'm not sure if it would be, but there's no shame in dreaming.


A new YGO series? Do you suppose he means the next season of YGO GX or is 4kids cooking up another YGO like Capsule Monsters? And shouldn't that stay on 4kidsTV: The Game Station being as it's about a card game? Or perhaps they aren't going to keep up that marketing in 2008-2009.

Awesome that TMNT will air on CW. It's bound to get better ratings there. If they team it up with Spider-Man it'll be a New York comic book heroes power hour of epic proportions.

It could be the next season of GX, but I'm not sure since he said it was a new series and GX isn't considered a new series at this point. I think that it might be more likely something like Capsule Monsters. Hopefully there will be more information about this. Putting TMNT with the new Spider-Man series sounds like an excellent idea to me.


It makes sense to move their more successful franchises over to the CW. But then again, they probably should balance out the content between the two blocks...

Regardless, 4Kids certainly has a big task ahead of them. It'll be interesting to see what happens when we get to Fall of 2008.

I agree. In terms of these two blocks, 4Kids needs to set up a decent balance between their shows and make sure not to put two shows, say TMNT and Chaotic, during the same timeslot since the more popular show, TMNT in this case, would win out. It just wouldn't be a wise business move to take, especially since they probably don't want have a fight for ratings between their two different Saturday morning blocks.

[DrTooth]

I'd say that most of us asking for the death of 4Kids would be much happier if they actually reformed instead (and maybe changed name to get a clean slate).

Basically only the higher ups need firing, not all the crew.

Words... mouth... you've completely taken them from it. AK needs a Eisner style ousting. He seems to be too cautious where he need not be, and too risky where it's not wanted. And trying to make Japanese shows look American? He doesn't give credit to kids at all.

If this company does go under, I'm really hoping the voice actors can get work for other companies. I know someone's gonna shoot me silly for this, but I never hated the dub voices. Even on One Piece. My sister once forced me to watch Gravitaion in the dub form... Wooden. Very wooden. It seemed almost amaturish. I've noticed a few of the 4k voices in it, and they were the ones who could act. They really seem to have liked voicing Ultimate Muscle and Pinata, and it shows.

I have a love hate thing about the company. Without them TMNT would just be a "fad from the 80's" or something, instead of an honest to goodness reboot. If they had the same care they had for TMNT (in the first 5 seasons, not FF) as they did with their other shows, there wouldn't have been too much complaint.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

If this company does go under, I'm really hoping the voice actors can get work for other companies.

The voice actors aren't 4Kids employees. They're freelance voice actors based in New York, and they already get work in other New York dubs like Central Park Media series, and some Media Blasters series are recorded in New York as well.

So there shouldn't really be any issue. While New York is much small on the dub scene than LA, Texas, or Vancouver, it's still got enough product recorded there.

[Shift]

I agree that while they've transformed a number of good shows into edited glop, currently they're doing pretty well. TMNT, even with FF, is still impeccable. Viva Pinata is at least on par with almost anything CN and Nick are chugging out nowadays, and I can't find anything terribly wrong with Chaotic, either. Even DK, with them shamelessly trying to reincarnate Pokemon into it and all, isn't bad.

[Lutochris]

I tried watching Chaotic a couple times. It seemed like a bad, afterthought parody of YGO style game cartoons you might see on an episode of Billy & Mandy or Fairly Odd-Parents. Except that it wasn't trying intentionally to be bad (I think).

[Gokou Ruri]

Chaotic's okay, but I only watched the first 8 episodes and nothing after that, so I'd have a lot to catch up on. It's a bit different considering they actually become the monsters themselves, so you're not just watching them slap cards on the table. Though I'd have to say Flash/Maya (whatever they use) probably isn't the best medium choice for an action show.

There was also no world-saving involved from what I saw, unless that pops up later on.

[Jyose]

I tried watching Chaotic a couple times. It seemed like a bad, afterthought parody of YGO style game cartoons you might see on an episode of Billy & Mandy or Fairly Odd-Parents. Except that it wasn't trying intentionally to be bad (I think).

Thing is, Chaotic totally misses the point of a hobby based show like Yugioh or Medabots and so on. There's a clear conflict of interest there, one side wants an adventure show, the other wants a hobby show. If the characters in this show were just PLAYING the game instead of living it, it would be a better show, ignoring the ugly style of the show of course.

I am interested in their new Yugioh(if it isn't just another season of GX). I remember seeing an episode of capsule monsters that was pretty good.

[DrTooth]

Chaotix, I did try watching a couple episodes of. While I do hate other card based shows, this one is truely terrible. i especially hate that fat guy who theenks it's co-o-o-o-o-o-ol to ov-uh-er exaggerate when heeeee talks-a-mundo. It's bad enough he's on his own show. I can avoid it. but then that specific character keeps permiating the commercials. It's really annoying. Just want him to shut his Flash animated pie hole.

[Gokou Ruri]

Thing is, Chaotic totally misses the point of a hobby based show like Yugioh or Medabots and so on. And what is the point? To sell cards? I'm sure that's the point of Chaotic too.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

And what is the point? To sell cards? I'm sure that's the point of Chaotic too.

The point of Yu-Gi-Oh! was never to sell cards, though. That was just a merchandising tie in that came later. Kazuki Takahashi was never trying to push some card game as the reason for his series.

Even in the anime, most of the filler arcs had little or nothing to do with the game. If that was really their prime objective, they would have shoved it down our throats.

[The Weed Of Cri]

The per share loss is essentially meaningless unless we know the net asset value of the shares at the end of the quarter. If the NAV is $3.00-$8.00, the company's in deep trouble, but if the NAV is $30.00-40.00, it's nothing to worry about because it would mean the quarterly losses are 1% or less. The number of consecutive quarterly losses is also a factor; one or two in a row can be interpreted as simple market fluctuations (and the stock market has been a roller coaster ride in 2007), but four or more is cause for concern, and eight or more means it's time for heads to roll.

[Gokou Ruri]

The point of Yu-Gi-Oh! was never to sell cards, though. That was just a merchandising tie in that came later. Kazuki Takahashi was never trying to push some card game as the reason for his series.

Even in the anime, most of the filler arcs had little or nothing to do with the game. If that was really their prime objective, they would have shoved it down our throats. The comic I might agree on, since he only brought the cards back because of how popular they were (at least until the end of Duelist Kingdom, since he started using the "official" card game rules to no doubt tie them into merchendising) but the show is painfully obviously only there to sell cards to kids. They change a lot of non-card games into card games for the show and add more card games where there originally weren't. Not to mention a movie, and cycling out old characters who's cards have already been released to obviously bring in new characters with new cards to get kids hyped to buy them.

The show is pretty much a 30 minute card commercial, but that doesn't mean it can't be good. I enjoy GX, myself, but I can admit that it's nothing more than a commercial for pushing children's trading cards. Just like Transformers, Gundam, Ninja Turtles, or Power Rangers.

[D Dubbs]

The show is pretty much a 30 minute card commercial, but that doesn't mean it can't be good. I enjoy GX, myself, but I can admit that it's nothing more than a commercial for pushing children's trading cards. Just like Transformers, Gundam, Ninja Turtles, or Power Rangers.

Exactly. It may be one gigantic TV ad, but who says a TV ad can't be entertaining?

[Rolling Cloud]

It could be the next season of GX, but I'm not sure since he said it was a new series and GX isn't considered a new series at this point.

It couldn't be the next season of GX anyways. =P

The dub is on 127, while that season ends on 156. That's 29 episodes left in it while season 4 has only aired 4 episodes so far, 157-160. There's not enough episodes to dub and ship out yet.

[Jyose]

The point of Yu-Gi-Oh! was never to sell cards, though. That was just a merchandising tie in that came later. Kazuki Takahashi was never trying to push some card game as the reason for his series.

Even in the anime, most of the filler arcs had little or nothing to do with the game. If that was really their prime objective, they would have shoved it down our throats.


Yeah, it was the opposite with Yugioh, the cards promoted the anime and manga.


And what is the point? To sell cards? I'm sure that's the point of Chaotic too.

Well, I didn't mean "Sell cards" as the point. In Yugioh, the characters play a card game that just happens to be the basis of the plot, whereas in Chaotic, they're actually LIVING the card game. "Living" the game has been done well before, in a series we call Pokemon. Chaotic just doesn't know which way it wants to go.

By the way... are there any other "hobby" shows than Yugioh? counting the sports shows, I can't think of that many.

[Master Moron]

I don't understand this "4Kids needs to suffer a painful death" mentality. Yeah, they've done some unlikeable things in the past, but what have they done in the last year that's so horrible? Currently, they're putting most of their focus towards their original productions. The one exception is Dinosaur King, and even that has a decent dub.


How much of the original music does the Dinosaur King dub keep?

[Conan-san]

I wish all the well for 4kids.

Untill they finaly give me a season boxset of Ultimate Muscle and Shaman King, and then they can go die in a fire, kthx.

[D Dubbs]

How much of the original music does the Dinosaur King dub keep?

On average...three or four pieces per episode. It's probably about Zatch Bell dub quality.

[Conan-san]

I supose the nianderthal man has to go extinct at SOME point.

[Undrave]

And what is the point? To sell cards? I'm sure that's the point of Chaotic too.

*sigh* I'll explain it in more details.

First to mention a few other Hobby Anime: BeyBlade, Battle D-Daman and Bakugan Battle Brawler. Medabots shouldn't count as a hobby Anime because it is basically a re-telling of a game's storyline, as such it wasn't created at the same time as the game it was selling.

The point of a hobby anime is to have the hobby drive the plot of the show. Truth is that Chaotic IS NOT driven by the card game. In fact the card game could be completly removed from episodes except on one or two occasion. One was when Tom wanted to win a location to go save some guy's Chaotic Double (even there the whole fight was rendered pointless when the guy just gave a copy to Tom) and, as a result of the previous one, Tom needed a monster's memory to find Maxxor. Beyond those few bouts the card game sequences are complete filler. The Chaotic Battle dome and the world of Perrim are completely cut off plot-wise.

On a side note I am always terribly annoyed that NO ONE questions the existence and point of the Chaotic battle dome world. But that has nothing to do with Hobby Animes.

Furthermore a hobby anime explains the rules of the game, presents strategy that, even if not exactly the same as the real game, could be emulated. Chaotic the game has far more diversity and many variables that are not remotely mentionned in the show. Off course this could be simply due to the fact that there is no 'outsider' in this show to whom the characters could explain the rules. Even there having a one time outsider WOULD have really helped create a more intense viewing experience. Not comprehending what is going on in the battle prevents us from really realizing if the situation is dire or not (except taking the 'OH NO!'s of random characters at face value, something that you should not always rely on normally). Without explaining that in Chaotic you use attack cards (like Pebble Storm or Fireball or whatever) it makes the different monsters look terribly dull and generic, as if they have no style of their own.

Another weakness of the show is that the character's decks have no personality whatsoever. In Yu-gi-oh! you know that Yugi plays the Dark Magician and other Spellcasters, you know that Jaden has Elemental Heroes, in Bakugan you know that Dan plays Pyrus(Fire) element bakugans and Shun Ventus(wind) etc etc. In Chaotic all you know is that Tom plays Overworlder, Kazz Underworlder, they both have the Big Boss of those tribe (discrediting these 'ultimate monsters' when they loose with them) and making us feel like there's only two tribes in this game (when there is four, though to me that's way too little...) and that EVERYBODY can run the same thing as you. A deck's personality help the kiddies indentify with their favorite character and it also helps them when they want to emulate those characters in the real game. In other words it drives sales. I guess they just don't have enough Flash models for different (UGLY in my opinion) monsters. the decks even lack personality when it comes to strategies. All battles are pretty much 'sneak around, blast and then sometime use situation reversing Mugic'.

For all these reasons I feel that Chaotic, wanting too much to be an adventure show, TOTALLY missed the point of a Hobby Anime.

*I* could come up with a better concept, and I'm an amateur.

[Gokou Ruri]

The point of a hobby anime is to have the hobby drive the plot of the show. Truth is that Chaotic IS NOT driven by the card game. In fact the card game could be completly removed from episodes except on one or two occasion. One was when Tom wanted to win a location to go save some guy's Chaotic Double (even there the whole fight was rendered pointless when the guy just gave a copy to Tom) and, as a result of the previous one, Tom needed a monster's memory to find Maxxor. Beyond those few bouts the card game sequences are complete filler. The Chaotic Battle dome and the world of Perrim are completely cut off plot-wise. But when they go out into Chaotic, they're scanning and meeting monsters, no? That's still advertising them, similar to what Pokemon does, even if Ash doesn't capture them, they're still being promoted as a prominent figure of the episode so kids will get the game to try to capture that monster.

The reason the card games don't seem as important as they do on YGO is because they don't have to save the world using children's trading cards. I find that a refreshing change of pace that a card game is just that, a simple card game. Leave the drama and world-saving to the actual monsters in Chaotic.


Furthermore a hobby anime explains the rules of the game, presents strategy that, even if not exactly the same as the real game, could be emulated. Chaotic the game has far more diversity and many variables that are not remotely mentionned in the show. Off course this could be simply due to the fact that there is no 'outsider' in this show to whom the characters could explain the rules. Even there having a one time outsider WOULD have really helped create a more intense viewing experience. Not comprehending what is going on in the battle prevents us from really realizing if the situation is dire or not (except taking the 'OH NO!'s of random characters at face value, something that you should not always rely on normally). Without explaining that in Chaotic you use attack cards (like Pebble Storm or Fireball or whatever) it makes the different monsters look terribly dull and generic, as if they have no style of their own. It was pretty easy for me to pick up. Pick monsters, equip them with battle gear, attack until someone's HP reaches zero using attacks, and use Mugic on occasion. It's not as complicated as, say, Magic the Gathering.


Another weakness of the show is that the character's decks have no personality whatsoever. In Yu-gi-oh! you know that Yugi plays the Dark Magician and other Spellcasters, you know that Jaden has Elemental Heroes, in Bakugan you know that Dan plays Pyrus(Fire) element bakugans and Shun Ventus(wind) etc etc. In Chaotic all you know is that Tom plays Overworlder, Kazz Underworlder, they both have the Big Boss of those tribe (discrediting these 'ultimate monsters' when they loose with them) and making us feel like there's only two tribes in this game (when there is four, though to me that's way too little...) and that EVERYBODY can run the same thing as you. A deck's personality help the kiddies indentify with their favorite character and it also helps them when they want to emulate those characters in the real game. In other words it drives sales. I guess they just don't have enough Flash models for different (UGLY in my opinion) monsters. the decks even lack personality when it comes to strategies. All battles are pretty much 'sneak around, blast and then sometime use situation reversing Mugic'. You realize there's only one card set out right now, right? There wasn't that much variety in Yu-Gi-Oh! at the start either. Yugi more or less relied on Dark Magician in all his fights just like Tom does on Maxxor. Stuff like Gaia the Fierce Knight, Beaver Warrior, Celtic Guardian, and his other monsters didn't have any sort of coherent theme going on. Even during Battle City when he added more Dark Magician support cards on he pulled out Buster Blader, the LV monsters, and various other non-magic monsters. Joey more or less relied strictly on Baby Dragon and Time Wizard (then REBD when he got it) to win all his fights with no theme until Battle City either (then he switched to some Warrior/Luck deck)

Chances are, when a new Chaotic expansion comes out, they'll put more focus on the new monsters in the show, like how YGO did, to get kids to buy the newer cards.


For all these reasons I feel that Chaotic, wanting too much to be an adventure show, TOTALLY missed the point of a Hobby Anime. Can't it be both? The thing is, Chaotic isn't Japanese, so it doesn't have to follow any sort of cliche or standards typically found in a category of Japanese shows. That's akin to complaining Justice League Unlimited not following a shounen-formula of Superman ranting about friendship and believing in your dreams to power himself up and defeat the enemy after a 3 episode fight.

[Undrave]

But when they go out into Chaotic, they're scanning and meeting monsters, no? That's still advertising them, similar to what Pokemon does, even if Ash doesn't capture them, they're still being promoted as a prominent figure of the episode so kids will get the game to try to capture that monster.

Pokémon isn't a Hobby Anime, it fits in the Mon Genre with Medabots, Mon Colle Knights, Flint the Time Detective and Dinosaur King for exemple. Also, unlike Chaotic, it features prominently ONE Pokémon per episode in an effort to expend the universe the games are set in. However you make a good point that it still manages to promote its universe, problem is that I don't think it does it enough to make it immersive.


The reason the card games don't seem as important as they do on YGO is because they don't have to save the world using children's trading cards. I find that a refreshing change of pace that a card game is just that, a simple card game. Leave the drama and world-saving to the actual monsters in Chaotic.

Aah but one of the classic principle of Hobby Anime IS the stake of the game. Chaotic has no stakes whatsoever, sometime there's a scan in play but its rarely important. Heck I think they don't even have rankings! The first episode hinged on Tom winning his first Chaotic match...what would happened if he had lost exactly??

If there is nothing at stakes, except your dreams, then you move into the Sports Anime genre like Eyeshield 21, Prince of Tennis and, yes even that, Hikaru no Go. In fact when the show started I hoped it would actually borrow elements from sports anime to spice up its plot. It would make the other players seen in the battle dome a lot more interesting. Right now they're pretty much bland. Even Tom and Kaz's two friends are almost as paper thin as their design sheet :p


It was pretty easy for me to pick up. Pick monsters, equip them with battle gear, attack until someone's HP reaches zero using attacks, and use Mugic on occasion. It's not as complicated as, say, Magic the Gathering.

Yeah I guess it's a minor quibble, but you barely see them use anything but the same six attacks, maybe seven, while there is many more than that in the game itself. I got the rest but I didn't know about attack cards until I got the starter so I thought it felt like every monster could use every other attack. I also wasn't aware of the four tribes, I thought there was only Underworlder and Overworlder.


You realize there's only one card set out right now, right? There wasn't that much variety in Yu-Gi-Oh! at the start either. Yugi more or less relied on Dark Magician in all his fights just like Tom does on Maxxor. Stuff like Gaia the Fierce Knight, Beaver Warrior, Celtic Guardian, and his other monsters didn't have any sort of coherent theme going on. Even during Battle City when he added more Dark Magician support cards on he pulled out Buster Blader, the LV monsters, and various other non-magic monsters. Joey more or less relied strictly on Baby Dragon and Time Wizard (then REBD when he got it) to win all his fights with no theme until Battle City either (then he switched to some Warrior/Luck deck)

Chances are, when a new Chaotic expansion comes out, they'll put more focus on the new monsters in the show, like how YGO did, to get kids to buy the newer cards.

Yu-gi-oh! is a bit like the grand daddy of all hobby anime, so it kinda had to find its footing. Plus my problem isn't with Tom and Kaz and their signiture monster, that's okay that's why they're signiture monsters.
Even when decks were vague for Yugi and his friends (and Kaiba) they weren't for the opponent. Weevil's gimmick was bugs, Rex had Dinos, Mai her Harpies, Bandit Keith his machines, etc etc. See my point? In a hobby anime what a character plays helps define his/her personality. There's no such thing in Chaotic. Why should I give a damn about those two 'bad guys' (the guy and girl) that Tom and Kaz often fight with? They got no style or personality. After a season and half these guys should have some signiture style by now


Can't it be both? The thing is, Chaotic isn't Japanese, so it doesn't have to follow any sort of cliche or standards typically found in a category of Japanese shows. That's akin to complaining Justice League Unlimited not following a shounen-formula of Superman ranting about friendship and believing in your dreams to power himself up and defeat the enemy after a 3 episode fight.

Hahaha I guess you're right in that respect. It's just that it's the first 'hobby cartoon' if you think about it, so the comparaison with the closest match are bound to happen.

Frankly I just find the 'hobby anime' half of the show incredibly dull and weakly written, while the 'adventure' half of the show is actually interesting. I'm much more interested in how the politics of Perrim are going than what kind of so-called devious way Clay found of winning. Sadly because of the 'hobby' half the 'adventure' half doesn't get as much screen time and ends up underdevelopped. They're basically trying to get two shows into one and both end up shortchanged in the end, making the whole not really appealing.

[Master Moron]

On average...three or four pieces per episode. It's probably about Zatch Bell dub quality.

Actually, that's probably a little better than Zatch Bell, since Zatch Bell only seems to use one or two pieces per episode. So, about how much of the original music, percentage wise, is kept on Dinosaur King? I would guess that there's about ten musical pieces in each episode, so if they kept three or four of them, that's 30 to 40 percent. That's not enough for me to consider a dub good. I'd say, in order for a dub to be considered good, it would need to keep 50 percent, at the very least.

[D Dubbs]

Actually, that's probably a little better than Zatch Bell, since Zatch Bell only seems to use one or two pieces per episode. So, about how much of the original music, percentage wise, is kept on Dinosaur King? I would guess that there's about ten musical pieces in each episode, so if they kept three or four of them, that's 30 to 40 percent. That's not enough for me to consider a dub good. I'd say, in order for a dub to be considered good, it would need to keep 50 percent, at the very least.

Well, sometimes 4Kids doesn't keep the whole piece, actually, and they'll just cut out to their generic dub music before the piece finishes. So I'd say 15-20% of the music is kept, maybe 30% on a good episode.

Yeah, I agree that more music should be kept, but it's a good step for 4Kids. Up to this point in their dubbing history, they've never kept any original background music except in Pokemon. They've only aired ten episodes of Dinosaur King, so it might get better as it goes along. Of course, it could get worse too.

[Undrave]

Of course, it could get worse too.

Hopefully this week's episode was the exception brought in by too much Otaku injokes (Gothic Lolitas FTW!).

[Light Lucario]

It couldn't be the next season of GX anyways. =P

The dub is on 127, while that season ends on 156. That's 29 episodes left in it while season 4 has only aired 4 episodes so far, 157-160. There's not enough episodes to dub and ship out yet.

Oh yeah. I forgot about how many episodes of season three have been dubbed and aired so far. I also forgot about how season four just started in Japan. That and the fact that GX doesn't seem to have a place to air new episodes on CN for awhile further proves how that it won't be the next season of GX. Hopefully CN will air those episodes and not just do away with it like what they did with Zatch Bell.

[Gokou Ruri]

Even when decks were vague for Yugi and his friends (and Kaiba) they weren't for the opponent. Weevil's gimmick was bugs, Rex had Dinos, Mai her Harpies, Bandit Keith his machines, etc etc. See my point? In a hobby anime what a character plays helps define his/her personality. There's no such thing in Chaotic. Why should I give a damn about those two 'bad guys' (the guy and girl) that Tom and Kaz often fight with? They got no style or personality. After a season and half these guys should have some signiture style by now Yeah, I guess that make sense. In all honestly I haven't seen anything past the first 10 or so episodes, so my knowledge of the show is probably more limited. Though I thought I each of the main characters liked one of the four tribes (Overworlders for Tom, Underworlders for Kaz, Bugs for Sarah, and Reptiles for Peyton)


Frankly I just find the 'hobby anime' half of the show incredibly dull and weakly written, while the 'adventure' half of the show is actually interesting. I'm much more interested in how the politics of Perrim are going than what kind of so-called devious way Clay found of winning. Sadly because of the 'hobby' half the 'adventure' half doesn't get as much screen time and ends up underdevelopped. They're basically trying to get two shows into one and both end up shortchanged in the end, making the whole not really appealing. I suppose that makes sense, some of the episodes I saw didn't need the card game at all (Rescuing Sarah from those bug creatures) but some of them did (Tom promising to use that weak goblin-guy in a duel in exchange for fixing that gun he wanted to scan)

[DrTooth]

Well, sometimes 4Kids doesn't keep the whole piece, actually, and they'll just cut out to their generic dub music before the piece finishes. So I'd say 15-20% of the music is kept, maybe 30% on a good episode.

Yeah, I agree that more music should be kept, but it's a good step for 4Kids. Up to this point in their dubbing history, they've never kept any original background music except in Pokemon. They've only aired ten episodes of Dinosaur King, so it might get better as it goes along. Of course, it could get worse too.


I wonder. I always wondered if they had to change the music for music rights reasons. I heard Toei is a real beast when it comes to music rights.


Untill they finaly give me a season boxset of Ultimate Muscle and Shaman King, and then they can go die in a fire, kthx.

Well, keep dreaming. I want this too, but it aint gonna happen. Unless some third party can release them with only the Japanese language track (like Sailor Moon season 1) there's no way this will ever see the light of day. Too bad. They're oversaturating the market with pointless Shojou animes, and these underrated gems never see the light of day.

[Sonic_Eclipse]

Untill they finaly give me a season boxset of Ultimate Muscle and Shaman King, and then they can go die in a fire, kthx

Well, keep dreaming. I want this too, but it aint gonna happen. Unless some third party can release them with only the Japanese language track (like Sailor Moon season 1) there's no way this will ever see the light of day. Too bad. They're oversaturating the market with pointless Shojou animes, and these underrated gems never see the light of day.You do know 4Kids does plan on releasing Shaman King on DVD sometime in '08 right?

[Jave]

I wonder. I always wondered if they had to change the music for music rights reasons. I heard Toei is a real beast when it comes to music rights.I'm not sure about that. Mexican, French, German, Italian and plenty of other dubs keep the original music in anime. Why can't the US dub?

[Lutochris]

Frankly I just find the 'hobby anime' half of the show incredibly dull and weakly written, while the 'adventure' half of the show is actually interesting. I'm much more interested in how the politics of Perrim are going than what kind of so-called devious way Clay found of winning. Sadly because of the 'hobby' half the 'adventure' half doesn't get as much screen time and ends up underdevelopped. They're basically trying to get two shows into one and both end up shortchanged in the end, making the whole not really appealing.

I don't know, Yugioh managed to have both a hobby side and an adventure side and did pretty well with both. But maybe that's the problem - Chaotic is just 4Kids trying way too hard to emulate Yugioh. But instead of having it based on the efforts of a single creative artist, it's pretty much a corporate concoction. Not to mention it just looks awful. Visually it's got all the personality of a cereal box mascot.

[DrTooth]

You do know 4Kids does plan on releasing Shaman King on DVD sometime in '08 right?

When and how? Will it include just the dub, or the original Japanese dialogue? It would be great if they released all the ones they made onto one box set (some were made, but not relelased).

Now if we can get Ultimate Muscle, or better yet Kinnikuman Nisei with just the japanese dialogue, that would be amazing.

[Sonic_Eclipse]

When and how? Will it include just the dub, or the original Japanese dialogue? It would be great if they released all the ones they made onto one box set (some were made, but not relelased).

Now if we can get Ultimate Muscle, or better yet Kinnikuman Nisei with just the japanese dialogue, that would be amazing.
You're asking for too much with the JPN dialogue, c'mon this is 4Kids here.

A few months ago I emailed 4Kids about a possible Shaman King DVD release, I got an email back from them as soon as I sent it, I was surprised. It was from Joe Lyons, he told me, "We will be releasing the series on DVD in 2008, it will be in sets of 7 episodes per DVD".

I myself was hoping for season box sets, but 7 episode discs are better than nothing I suppose. Now I can't say the same for Ultimate Muscle as I didn't ask about that. I am surprised that they aren't giving Shaman King the box set treatment, when they're gonna be releasing Sonic X in box sets starting today, and Sonic already got a complete DVD release.

[DrTooth]

You're asking for too much with the JPN dialogue, c'mon this is 4Kids here.

A few months ago I emailed 4Kids about a possible Shaman King DVD release, I got an email back from them as soon as I sent it, I was surprised. It was from Joe Lyons, he told me, "We will be releasing the series on DVD in 2008, it will be in sets of 7 episodes per DVD".




Well, there are about 4 or 5 DVD's they released that have original Japanese dialogue, and they rerecorded dialogue for the uncut dub. I have volume 2. They only had 3 episodes. not being able to reuse these would be a waste.

[D Dubbs]

Really? Shaman King is getting released? That's interesting.

It'll probably be the edited version, but it's better than nothing, I suppose. Besides, the 4Kids dub isn't that bad, from what I've heard.

[Rud]

Really? Shaman King is getting released? That's interesting.

It'll probably be the edited version, but it's better than nothing, I suppose. Besides, the 4Kids dub isn't that bad, from what I've heard.

that, Fighting Foodons and ultimate muscle are the best dubs they ever made, in my opinion, but the only one of those anime i want is Fighting Foodons, that was the best show when i was younger, id wake up just to watch it.

[Undrave]

that, Fighting Foodons and ultimate muscle are the best dubs they ever made, in my opinion, but the only one of those anime i want is Fighting Foodons, that was the best show when i was younger, id wake up just to watch it.

Wasn't Fighting Foodons a sort of third party thing? I know it had the TAJ voices but I don't think the script and editing was done in house.

But I'd love to get it on DVD too.

[DrTooth]

Personally, edited or not, I really want to see Ultimate Muscle in saga sets. But at this point, I'd rather see some third party release the original Kinnikuman (even just the movies and the Battle of the Princes series from the 90's) somehow. But there's no likely hood of that.

[Conan-san]

Well, keep dreaming. I want this too, but it aint gonna happen. Unless some third party can release them with only the Japanese language track (like Sailor Moon season 1) there's no way this will ever see the light of day. Too bad. They're oversaturating the market with pointless Shojou animes, and these underrated gems never see the light of day.
Then they can die in a fire, kthx