What ARE we supposed to talk about on the cafe?

[J'onn J'onzz]

We can't talk about politics, we can't talk about religion, we can't talk about our lives... We're close to not even being able to talk about the weather. (Has global warming been banned yet?) What is the purpose of the forum?

Talking about avatars, foods, comings and goings, desktops, and dreams can only go so far. News has been condensed into one thread, and even birthday threads are somewhat frowned upon. There are just too many giant threads on there and not enough other more brief topics we can make threads about.

A FIFTH of the posts on the first page have been closed for one reason or another, and the posts go back a week. Comparing this to general animation where the posts on the first page only go back TWO DAYS and the only two threads which are locked are rules threads only exemplifies the problem even more, in my opinion. Admittedly, there are less active forums, too, such as the writing forums, but there's nothing you can really do about that, as there seems to be a simple lack of interest in writing on TZ. You can't say TZ has a lack of interest in real life.

The community forums (including fun and games, which has threads on the front page going back to as early as august) seem to be too bogged down by confusing regulations (such as no one paying attention to that brief reference to "no religious discussions" in the FAQ for a long while before the mods randomly started enforcing it a few months back) to really get any decent discussion.

And, yes, I know about the TZ politics board. But it's extremely dead. I think that politics ought to be reinstated into the cafe. If people are too rude about it, simply warn the people causing the problem. I don't think the SUBJECT in which the problem is occuring should be responsible, it's the person doing it. Similarly, I don't think discussion of Digimon should be banned from the anime forum. I think the person who rudely raises commotion over it is the one who should be warned.

I don't mean to offend any of the mods on that forum, I just think being a bit more leniant would get the forum alive again. As is, there's not enough to discuss on there due to all the banned topics which in my opinion weren't that problematic to begin with. How should I "get to know my fellow TZ members" if they can't talk about their lives, opinions or even their PETS? Through their dreams and birthday dates?

Now, before anyone starts accusing me of just contributing negative "feedback", which is the main thing this forum seems to get anyway, and not actually contributing any actual "suggestions", I think maybe a totally redone community forum with more active mods, different rules, etc, might be more active and interesting. Maybe something similar to the way it was a few years back. Humorous fake forum drama, occasional politics, mods active in a positive fassion, etc.

But I'm starting to ramble and repeat myself. Congratulations if you even read all this. :D

[Havenkel]

Maybe you should try to subliminly(?) put that in there...like this:

"Im my dream......with my pet who is...."

I dont know much about the rules there, because I don't really post there...:sad:

[Jave]

I'm speaking strictly about Fun & Games since you mentioned it in your post. I personally have nothing against having some more "crazy" topics in there (like those "Take over the world" we used to have) as long as people post full sentences in them and not one-word posts.

Try contacting me on AIM. I'm open for all suggestions involving F&G.

[Kury Wagner]

As an active Cafe moderator, I'm going to take a shot at this. Any other Cafe mods can add things in.


What is the purpose of the forum? The purpose of the forum is for discussion. You are more than welcome to talk about your life, but only as long as there is room for discussion. No one can really add anything to how you got a good grade, bought a new car, or changed car insurance companies. If you were asking about study tips, what to look for in a car, or anything like that, then that'd be cool. Even if you just mention that you have a big test coming up, and THEN pose a question. That'd be cool. You need to have a discussion point, just like an essay needs a thesis statement.


Comparing this to general animation where the posts on the first page only go back TWO DAYS and the only two threads which are locked are rules threads only exemplifies the problem even more, in my opinion.Those are two completely different forums. Start more threads if you want more activity. I don't know what to say about that; it has nothing to do with moderation. You want us to keep a thread open despite it being meaningless or against the rules just because the board is in a lull? No. That's ridiculous.


such as no one paying attention to that brief reference to "no religious discussions" in the FAQ for a long while before the mods randomly started enforcing it a few months backHey, that's new to me, as well. phw was the one to start closing those threads. As long as there's no flaming, I never saw an issue.


I think that politics ought to be reinstated into the cafe. If people are too rude about it, simply warn the people causing the problem. I don't think the SUBJECT in which the problem is occuring should be responsible, it's the person doing it.The thing is, politics is such a very hot topic, even with good members. It is pointless to give them matches and fluid just because, again, the board is dead. If you want politics, go elsewhere. It has proven to be an issue that is far too ridiculous for moderators to handle. Harley herself has said that she does not want politics on the board.


As is, there's not enough to discuss on there due to all the banned topics which in my opinion weren't that problematic to begin with. How should I "get to know my fellow TZ members" if they can't talk about their lives, opinions or even their PETS? Through their dreams and birthday dates? I hate to say it like this, but you're not a moderator. There will be times when you disagree with actions taken, but that's all there is to it. I disagree with my fellow mods sometimes, but if they took action, that's all there is to it. It's not for me to say. You are more than welcome to take it up with another moderator of the forum and say, 'hey, I don't agree with so-and-so's actions' if it really is a decision that bothers you.

I already confronted the theory about it being more alive above, so reread that, if you must. As stated, you are more than welcome to start threads about personal things as long as there is something to discuss. It is not your LiveJournal, sorry.


I think maybe a totally redone community forum with more active mods, different rules, etc, might be more active and interesting.Basically you want us to completely redone a forum so that you personally like it better? Dude, that's extreme. Perhaps the rules need to be updated, that's true, but that will come in time if Harley and Clayface get around to it. I doubt that more active mods and different rules will really help, though. More mods means more moderation, to which you seem extremely adverse to having in the Cafe.

So summed up: Rules are there to stay and if you want more traffic then you need to create it. Sorry if any of that came off as harsh, but I've heard this same speech from you far too many times, Jonn. You always say I don't give a good enough explanation, so maybe this time I did.

[Captain Zechs]

Those are two completely different forums. Start more threads if you want more activity. I don't know what to say about that; it has nothing to do with moderation. You want us to keep a thread open despite it being meaningless or against the rules just because the board is in a lull? No. That's ridiculous.

That isn't what he is saying, or atleast, I think not. Half the time you guys don't even give the board a CHANCE to see if it will turn out alright, and instead just assume that it will reduce into utter crap. Now, sometimes that is fine, because some boards are really like that, but other times they sometime atleast have a bit of potential, which you guys seem to overlook.


Hey, that's new to me, as well. phw was the one to start closing those threads. As long as there's no flaming, I never saw an issue.

And yet you just said that if it is breaking a rule it should be closed, last I checked, politics was a no-no, so why let this slide by but not the others?


The thing is, politics is such a very hot topic, even with good members. It is pointless to give them matches and fluid just because, again, the board is dead. If you want politics, go elsewhere. It has proven to be an issue that is far too ridiculous for moderators to handle. Harley herself has said that she does not want politics on the board.

While I do think that some politics should be banned, I don't think every single topic with it should be, I think the Politics board has proven we can handle this, or we could atleast give this a try, but, like you said...not really your call to begin with.


I hate to say it like this, but you're not a moderator. There will be times when you disagree with actions taken, but that's all there is to it.

And this is a problem in itself. Just because you are a Mod, doesn't make your decision automatically correct, you just go and assume it is (I say you, but I really mean Modding as a whole). You guys make mistakes to ya know.


I already confronted the theory about it being more alive above, so reread that, if you must. As stated, you are more than welcome to start threads about personal things as long as there is something to discuss. It is not your LiveJournal, sorry.

Vbulletin has a Blog feature...maybe we should get it?



Basically you want us to completely redone a forum so that you personally like it better? Dude, that's extreme. Perhaps the rules need to be updated, that's true, but that will come in time if Harley and Clayface get around to it. I doubt that more active mods and different rules will really help, though. More mods means more moderation, to which you seem extremely adverse to having in the Cafe.


Not just for his personal benefit, but for the forum as a whole. I agree with him a lot on this, we talk about it almost every night, things need to be changed, maybe not drastically, but something needs to happen. And not neccessarily MORE Mods, but a different Moderating system as a whole.

But yeah.

[purplehairedwonder]

We can't talk about politics, we can't talk about religion, we can't talk about our lives... We're close to not even being able to talk about the weather. (Has global warming been banned yet?) What is the purpose of the forum? Toon Zone itself is a place for discussion. The Cafe is the place for discussion that doesn't fit anywhere else. But the discussion has to be civil. We've had many topics on politics and religion in the past and the end results haven't been especially promising. Basically, we've tried but it just hasn't worked out.

Talking about avatars, foods, comings and goings, desktops, and dreams can only go so far. News has been condensed into one thread, and even birthday threads are somewhat frowned upon. There are just too many giant threads on there and not enough other more brief topics we can make threads about.Well, bloggy posts aren't going to get many replies since there is little discussion that can come from them. If the post is about something going on in your life and you add a question or ask for advice then that's fine since it could spur discussion.

A FIFTH of the posts on the first page have been closed for one reason or another, and the posts go back a week. Comparing this to general animation where the posts on the first page only go back TWO DAYS and the only two threads which are locked are rules threads only exemplifies the problem even more, in my opinion. Admittedly, there are less active forums, too, such as the writing forums, but there's nothing you can really do about that, as there seems to be a simple lack of interest in writing on TZ. You can't say TZ has a lack of interest in real life.I'm not seeing the connection between GA and the Cafe. Just because something is going on in there doesn't mean it reflects what is going on anywhere else.

The community forums (including fun and games, which has threads on the front page going back to as early as august) seem to be too bogged down by confusing regulations (such as no one paying attention to that brief reference to "no religious discussions" in the FAQ for a long while before the mods randomly started enforcing it a few months back) to really get any decent discussion. As I mentioned earlier, we've tried to have religious discussions in the past but there inevitably end up being a few people who refuse to agree to disagree and the threads just don't end up well.

And, yes, I know about the TZ politics board. But it's extremely dead. I think that politics ought to be reinstated into the cafe. If people are too rude about it, simply warn the people causing the problem. I don't think the SUBJECT in which the problem is occuring should be responsible, it's the person doing it.Just like with religious discussions, we've tried to have political discussions. And just like religion, it's a touchy subject that rarely turns out well. The politics board was made for a reason so there is an outlet for political discussions. It being dead has no bearing on the Cafe. You want the politics board to be more active? Get your friends to post on it.

I don't mean to offend any of the mods on that forum, I just think being a bit more leniant would get the forum alive again. As is, there's not enough to discuss on there due to all the banned topics which in my opinion weren't that problematic to begin with. How should I "get to know my fellow TZ members" if they can't talk about their lives, opinions or even their PETS? Through their dreams and birthday dates? The way to get to know your fellow TZ members is through discussion. That is the entire point. The threads that aren't going to stimulate discussion are the ones to be closed. If you want more traffic, start more threads that can instigate discussion. It's a pretty simple concept. *shrug*

I think maybe a totally redone community forum with more active mods, different rules, etc, might be more active and interesting. Maybe something similar to the way it was a few years back. Humorous fake forum drama, occasional politics, mods active in a positive fassion, etc.I'm not sure how completely redoing the forum is going to help matters but it might be worth looking into. However, there has been enough drama lately that times have changed out of necessity. What you mean by "mods active in a positive fashion" I'm not sure I quite follow, though.

[Chris Wood]

Well, you could start by offering one of the girls a glass of punch, and hopefully conversation will blossom from there. Just be yourself.

[Lazerboy5000]

The Cafe is just a fun place for intelligent disscussion. Nothing to crazy (that would be fun a games), and nothing too personal (like religion or politics).

Global Warming has been disscussed a few times in the Cafe, but indirectly.

[J'onn J'onzz]

I only brought up general animation to give an example about how a lot of boards are more active due to less pre-mature thread kills. I suppose that I can understand locking some political and religious threads, but I think only if they get out of hand. I also noticed that there aren't that many actual answers to my question. What are we supposed to talk about? I've gotten the "it's the leftovers forum" response a few times. "Things that don't fit anywhere else" isn't exactly very descriptive. I'm not sure what exactly to post. :confused:

Edit before close: I know a lot of people don't like General Animation, but I think it's pretty good these days. The list threads are much less abundant.

[Kury Wagner]

We can't tell you what to post. =\ I mean, I have a hard enough time coming up with my own ideas. Perhaps you could get ideas from other boards if you're really having issues with coming up with new ideas.

It doesn't hurt to try a thread idea, though. As long as it's not rude, chances are the worst that will happen is that it'd get closed. Or you could always PM a Cafe mod and ask if your idea sounds good or not. I promise not to be too hard on you. =P

[veemonjosh]

Well, bloggy posts aren't going to get many replies since there is little discussion that can come from them. If the post is about something going on in your life and you add a question or ask for advice then that's fine since it could spur discussion.

Except I have seen threads of the latter kind that have been locked ONLY on the grounds that the thread is about someone's personal life, even if they're looking for advice.

[Kury Wagner]

If you have a personal issue with a question, that'd be a better suited for something like TeenHelp or an advice website.

[DarthGonzo]

Edit before close: I know a lot of people don't like General Animation, but I think it's pretty good these days. The list threads are much less abundant.

That's because there are new episodes of South Park, Drawn Together and all of FOX's Sunday night shows. Give it a week or so - when the Comedy Central shows end their seasons and FOX runs out of completed episodes - and it will be business as usual.

[HellCat]

I'm not too sure about that. I'd say generally the list thread issue has been taken care of. We now have an actual rule about them and enough of the community seems to dislike the limited discussion they offer that more folks seem to be deciding against them. It hasn't gone away completly but a few months back it was much worse. The best we can do is continue to promote strong, meaningful discussion so it fades away.

[James]

We now have an actual rule about them and enough of the community seems to dislike the limited discussion they offer that more folks seem to be deciding against them.

Which is what - as a member not a moderator - I've seen a lot of in the Cafe. The Cafe does have a difficult job; on one hand members do genuinely want a more open relaxed atmosphere, yet issues like blogesque threads do cause a lot of frustration.

In fact, many people wanted to see them stamped out because they offer little substance or conversation. So you have staff trapped between trying to cater for the public expectations and yet keep the place open and relaxed.

Same goes for politics and religion. Many of us are happy to chat on the subject, and like the idea of the freedom to do so, but practically, they cause more upset and bad vibes than they do by being banned topics (IMO). I've never seen a religious thread which hasn't ended with someone upsetting someone else, or declaring all gay people will go to hell, or that all catholics are bigots etc etc. Eventually someone takes it personally one way or another. And the same for politics - especially since 9/11, and the political polarization of your country's demographic is still - IMO - making the subject of politics are hot one which inevitably someone gets burned/warned/banned.

Again, speaking as a member, I do feel that the Cafe staff have one of the toughest balancing acts for the reasons I state. They are simply looking for a balancing act between keeping the place respectful and thereby friendly, and keeping rules that give people the atmosphere and type of conversations that members themselves have asked for. It's not an easy system, but however it progresses I think we'll find religion, politics and blogs will offer nothing but frustration and upset. Again - in my opinion as a member.

[Zeonic Freak]

Those are two completely different forums. Start more threads if you want more activity. I don't know what to say about that; it has nothing to do with moderation. You want us to keep a thread open despite it being meaningless or against the rules just because the board is in a lull? No. That's ridiculous.

This is one of my big issues with the cafe <steps in outta the shadows>.

Its funny how outta all the closed threads you do, there are few handfuls that accually might make a pretty good discussion on. Its like you and PHW jump the gun on threads that if someone doesnt post in like 5 minutes, it doesnt have discussion or you got some people that say the stupidest stuff and its automaticlly going to be a bad thread by your better judgement.

And if someone you think might take the thread into the wrong direction, just give them a simple warning, but keep the thread going.


And this is a problem in itself. Just because you are a Mod, doesn't make your decision automatically correct, you just go and assume it is (I say you, but I really mean Modding as a whole). You guys make mistakes to ya know.

I do like how Zechs put it. Your are Mods, not Goddesses. Its the internet, mellow out.

Hey, if your thinking "you dont know how hard this job is", let me give it a shot. Ill be more than welcome to take the fall if things go downhill. Hey, you dont know till you try. Just saying...

[HellCat]

I think this is heading in a nasty direction. I agree the issue of mods making bad decisions is a relevant one, but I don't see anything to suggest Kury or purplehairedwonder see themselves as so called 'goddesses'. I think if anything they're just very actively trying to clean up the Cafe. They might be stepping on a few toes with that but mudslinging isn't going to help, from either side.

[Harley]

This thread was okay until the personal inference by others participating that the Cafe mods thought they never made mistakes or thought of themselves as "goddesses." I'd like to put that idea to rest. The periodic power trip does happen within *any* moderation community. Overall, though, it's a load of crock.

I understand, though. What's not to love about moderating? You have the fun new opportunity to be ostracized by your once friends. Everyone tells you how much you suck at what you do. Constantly. Lord help you if you make a misstep in what you're actually trying to say. Not too many people take the time to think, well, maybe you didn't mean it that way, because clearly you did. If you disagree with feedback, it's not a difference of opinion; You're wrong, not listening and not doing what's best for the community. Suddenly, you're entirely full of yourself and on a god trip. And man, once that happens, that's free license for the insults to fly. But not from you. Because Harley will lean into you something fierce if she finds out.

Those two report to four people. They report to Zach (their Chief Mod), the two active mod mediators and then me. They've got four people on their asses and then they have to deal with you guys. Maybe there's a chance that they don't have an agenda and they're just moderating the forum as best they can because I asked them to and they foolishly accepted. Maybe there's a chance that you guys misinterpreted what they said.

Take the time to give your feedback in a calm and concise manner. If you need clarification on an answer they've given, ask for it. But leave the insults out of it. Lay off of of these two and stop watching for them to slip up, because I don't think you *really* understand how unbelievably depressing it is to have to deal with some of the nastiness you guys are capable of doling day in and day out. If there's anything currently going on (outside of TZ) between you guys, keep it off of my forums.

The initial feedback in this thread has been received. Thank you very much. Thread closed.