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Clark J. Kent
02-15-2002, 10:16 PM
I don't want any of you to come on and flame me for seeming to want to rain on your parades, because I mean no personal insults to any of you. Still, this is an issue that I feel very strongly about and have been building up a certain degree of frustration over for quite some time. I welcome intelligent, peaceful replies, but please, let's not flame and call names in this topic. I never intended for this to be personally offensive; if you find this personally offensive, you are reading much too far into the post. With that disclaimer having been said, I shall begin...

For a long time now, fans of JL everywhere (this is not the only JL forum in which I participate,) have been clamoring for love interests to arise between the members of League, and even between villains and members. Posts plague the board (or did at one time,) trying to argue that Superman and Diana should get together. The same has been said about Flash and Hawkgirl, Nightwing and Supergirl; fans have actually embraced and relished in the idea of Batgirl and Batman, the incestuous relationship of Batman Beyond, and one of the biggest mistakes of that series. This evening, I was speaking to someone who actually asked me if I thought Felix Faust liked Diana. "If he did, I didn't pick up on it," I replied, and asked "Why do you ask?" The answer I got (I am not making this up): "I just think it would be interesting for him to like her and for her not to like back."

This is not a soap opera, ladies and gentlemen. For all its flaws, Justice League is supposed to be a serious action/adventure show. Yes, it has its funny moments of course. It's not ALL action and adventure, nor should it be. I do want to see lighter moments between members, but do they need to date? Does there need to be solid sexual tension between characters to make this show interesting?

Well, some sexual tension is actually interesting. I cannot deny that I always liked the triangle between Clark, Lois and Superman in S:TAS. But this was because there was a definite conflict. Lois liked Superman and not Clark, and it was fun to watch Clark and Lois fight and tease. Yes, that was fun. And you know why it stayed fun? Because nothing solid ever became of it in the animated series. And yes, it's funny to see Flash trying to make passes at Hawkgirl, who blows him off, or Diana who just isn't really interested. But do we need the two of them to date?

I am sorry, ideas like this would not only be damaging to the show, but would simply be corny. Why would Superman and Diana date? Just because they are both superheroes and serve on the same team together? Why should anyone genuinely respond to Flash's advances? We don't need romance on the show for the sake of having romance on the show. If each of these character had their own series, then I would suggest introducing a romantic interest.

BTAS had Selina Kyle, who worked wonderfully, in my opinion as a foil for Bruce Wayne. What great, strong character she was. And you could see the chemistry between the characters. You could see the playfulness and the way Bruce always tried making Selina like HIM and not BATMAN.

BTAS also featured Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon, which was a very legitimate relationship as well. I enjoyed watching them in the episodes they appeared in together, and especially the two of them in Sub-Zero. This relationship made some sense, though. They were all but introduced from the beginning as being romantically involved; or at least we all knew they would be eventually. Two young kids hanging out together with similar goals and mindsets made sense wanting to be together. They were already good friends, and when they brought the relationship to a higher level, you could see why. They'd already been through a lot together.

I don't see that same chemistry with other heroes that fans seem to clamor for. I think it's just the age old obsession with Superman and Wonder Woman. It doesn't make sense to me beyond that. But maybe I'm just biased; maybe I don't want to make sense to me because I think this would cheapen the show.

As I often do when I write at such length, I've forgotten completely where I was going with this post, but I will certainly add to it later. I would just like to get intelligent feedback with informed opinions on this much of the matter, and then we will continue the discussion from there.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Mr. Obsession
02-15-2002, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Clark J. Kent
fans have actually embraced and relished in the idea of Batgirl and Batman, the incestuous relationship of Batman BeyondInteresting observation. Technically their relationship was not incestuous, though I thought it was interesting that one actually happened between the two. The argument could be made that a physical relationship between Bruce and Barbara would be psychological incest, but that argument depends largely on how the characters perceive each other. And this is best discussed on the Bat/Supe/Beyond board.



As for the rest of your post, well I don't see the harm in posters saying that various members of the League would make cute couples. I mean we know it not going to happen, just let those fans have their fun.

Clark J. Kent
02-16-2002, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Obsession
Interesting observation. Technically their relationship was not incestuous, though I thought it was interesting that one actually happened between the two. The argument could be made that a physical relationship between Bruce and Barbara would be psychological incest, but that argument depends largely on how the characters perceive each other. And this is best discussed on the Bat/Supe/Beyond board.Actually, I was suggestin that it was psychological in nature, and I realize that I never specified that in my post so that is my fault. And this is not best described on the B/S/BB as it was support for my argument backing up a topic decidedly Justice League.


As for the rest of your post, well I don't see the harm in posters saying that various members of the League would make cute couples. I mean we know it not going to happen, just let those fans have their fun. Personally, I don't get the impression that it is for fun. I think these are legitimate discussions of ideas they actually want to see happen. And I just wondered what about romance for romance's sake was so attractive to viewers of an action/adventure show. And if you were talking to the WEIRDO that I was talking to last night who wanted to see Felix Faust and Diana get together, you'd be just as passionate about this debate. This person was downright frightening. Matt-Man knows who I am talking about.

If you want shows about guys liking girls and girls not liking them back, turn on Smallville. It's a fantastic show, (better than JL!) and that's just about it's weekly theme

Spider
02-16-2002, 01:59 PM
Clark,

Speaking solely for myself, my remarks regarding Hawkgirl and Flash were truly all in fun. Besides, I don't want to see Flash get a black eye. ;)

I think the writers handled that one scene ("In Blackest Night", if memory serves) very well. I liked it when Hawkgirl said *nothing* in return. Sometimes, silence can be deafening. :)

Mr. Obsession
02-16-2002, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Clark J. Kent
Actually, I was suggestin that it was psychological in nature, and I realize that I never specified that in my post so that is my fault. And this is not best described on the B/S/BB as it was support for my argument backing up a topic decidedly Justice League.Sorry, what I meant was that if you want to continue discussing the Bruce/Barbara relationship (which I'd be more than happy to do) it should continued over at the other board.



Personally, I don't get the impression that it is for fun. I think these are legitimate discussions of ideas they actually want to see happen. And I just wondered what about romance for romance's sake was so attractive to viewers of an action/adventure show. And if you were talking to the WEIRDO that I was talking to last night who wanted to see Felix Faust and Diana get together, you'd be just as passionate about this debate. This person was downright frightening. Matt-Man knows who I am talking about.

If you want shows about guys liking girls and girls not liking them back, turn on Smallville. It's a fantastic show, (better than JL!) and that's just about it's weekly theme I'm sure that there are some people who actually what various members of the League to hook up, but most of what I've seen have just been made in good fun. Besides we know it's not going to happen. So from my point of view I don't see any harm.

Majin Vegeta
02-16-2002, 10:36 PM
I think that Justice League is doing great right now, and any foolish changes such as the ones mentoined here would upset the balance of things. This is an action show- for romance, there are other sources, aren't there? Let's keep Justice League clean.

Karkull
02-17-2002, 12:37 AM
I'm up for it if--IF--they can get a decent story out of it. Doing it for the sake of doing it would be wrong.

TheScarecrow
02-17-2002, 01:16 AM
Just what would be so bad if Sups and WW did attempt to hook up, or if there was a love triangle between them and Lois? Why would any form of romance on JL whatsoever cheapen the show?

I don't understand that at all to tell you the truth.

MILatino
02-18-2002, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by TheScarecrow
Just what would be so bad if Sups and WW did attempt to hook up, or if there was a love triangle between them and Lois? Why would any form of romance on JL whatsoever cheapen the show?

I don't understand that at all to tell you the truth.

I agree with you... IF the writing is done well and it's done maturely.

Superman/WW? The whole nature of WW's existence and cultural upbringing doesn't allow WW to easily fall for any man. It does happen, as we've seen with her mother's romance with Hades, but generally the Amazons see men as a nuisance if not inferior. :cool:

A well-written story would be WW starting to see Superman in "that way" and having personal issues due to her upbringing. There could be good WW/Hawkgirl comradery developed (something terribly lacking in the show so far) as WW shares this with the only other woman on the team. As for Superman, will he abandon is loyalty to Lois? :eek:

Hawkgirl/Flash? I don't see it. He's too immature. If he grows up soon, she might appreciate his sense of humor and she might lighten up. Remember, however, that her silence could indicate that there really is a Hawkman and she just didn't come and and tell everyone her private business. I would rather see a Green Lantern / Hawkgirl interest. They both have similar professions and discipline.

In any case, they could do a story about how two of them consider it only to find out that it won't work as long as they're part of the team. It would be similar to two cops working together and a romance getting in the way of their professionalism and judgement.

MattL.
02-19-2002, 02:03 PM
Personally, I think Bruce and Barbara was one of the damn best ideas that Batman Beyond put forth, its extremely natural (I can't believe no one thought of it before) and it lends something to the mythos. So I'll leave it at that.

I agree that we shouldn't have couplings for the sake of couplings and at least there should be couplings that make some form of sense within the stories and the characters themselves.

Rather than just taking two hot looking characters and beerslamming them into a couple. Lord knows I've seen enough of that with anime character couplings. (Even the Digimon kids get this kind of thing.)

I'll also agree that it shouldn't be a major focus of the show. However, I wouldn't mind seeing it on some subtle levels and depending on how naturally it flows from the main stories, coming to some kind of fruition.

Also much of it depends on how it is all played and how far it goes.

For example, having Wonder Woman and Superman get together would just be an insult to the actual Superman mythos itself. Lois is his destiny. *But* I think having an anttraction to him on her part and him feeling it to. It could be very intresting especially since Superman seems to be a bit older and Diana younger. A little May/December romance can be intresting as long as it isn't something gratuitous or sick.

and I actually dont mind the speculation about Flash and Hawkgirl because theres a neat contrast of personalities there yet, there has been moments where the Fastest Man Alive got a smile out of her for his shameless flirting. Do I want the show to be about this romance, hell no. But I do think its a coupling that has something natural going for it and isn't just put in the show because fans want to see two hotties boff.

Karkull
02-19-2002, 05:12 PM
Y'know, the Flash and Hawkgirl hooking up would be a little too much like Fry and Leela.

RorShaq
02-19-2002, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by MattL.
For example, having Wonder Woman and Superman get together would just be an insult to the actual Superman mythos itself. Lois is his destiny.

Ya know, I've always felt that Wonder Woman was a much better match for Superman than Lois. The Clark-Lois-Superman triangle was one of the best parts of the old mythos, and it's a real shame that they ruined it in the early 90's. Superman has deep feelings for Lois, sure, but his responsibilites to the world are too great. In true character, he wouldn't allow himself to commit to her. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, serves as the perfect substitute...he can't have the one he truly wants, but he comes to grips with the way things are. That sort of sacrifice is far more in line with Superman.