I know exactly what 4kids' next project should be [Archive]

Andrew T. Hingson

10-21-2007, 05:17 PM

I can't believe I didn't think of this before, it seems so obvious now.

4kids has the mon-genre locked down so they don't need to bother focusing on those series anymore. If they want to grow their brand they need their own Dragonball. This is something they attempted to get with Shaman King and then One Piece and as we all know both failed miserably to accomplish this.

What they're looking for is a shounen style action/adventure series with exciting battles and lots of merchadising possibility. There's actually not a lot of those types of series left to pluck from Japan airwaves at the moment and I'm obviously of the opinion that they should completely stop looking toward pre-existing foreign series for their fix.

However they do happen to have good enough relations with Japanese studios to accomplish what I believe they should be doing.

Their next project should be a shounen style action/adventure Japanese co-production. If they lack ideas for that, I'm sure someone in Japan has some ideas for that genre (afterall, IGPX was an IG show concept before CN came along and asked to make a co-pro).

What do they get out of this? They get a series crafted exactly how they want it and a series they can market world wide and while they don't tend to care what otaku think no one would have a reason to complain as long as it was an original series.

Along with that they get a show more likely to interest kid audiences here. And that's precisely what they need now that they half a bigger stake in Saturday mornings than any other company.

You know I've always been a fan of "everybody wins" or "best of both worlds" solutions and believe it or not there may even be those types of solutions for the 4kids situation.

HG Revolution

10-21-2007, 05:22 PM

It'd still probably suck. Besides, isn't Chaotix their attempt at a co-pro?

4Kids still hasn't died yet and they probably should. No need to keep them living in failure and misery for any longer.

Dudley

10-21-2007, 05:26 PM

They shouldn't acquire or do a co-produce anything. If they want to make something, they should do it themselves instead of relying on outside help.

Gokou Ruri

10-21-2007, 06:20 PM

Considering Bratz and Winx Club were their highest rated shows, I'm surprised they dont try to do more girl shows (then again, Doremi and Mew Mew bombing probably scared them off from that)

Master Moron

10-21-2007, 06:25 PM

EscaflownePilot

10-21-2007, 06:30 PM

Just because Ninja Turtles was watchable doesn't mean that 4K!ds has a clue how to make an original series. I guarantee without Peter Laird's input 4K!ds Ninja Turtles would suck too. A co-production would still have 4K!ds generic music, corny dialogue, and bad voice direction.Exactly. I used to defend 4Kids to the hilt because, for as much as I disliked them releasing their acquisitions dub only and with relatively poor dubs at that, I always fell back on how wonderful TMNT was.

But look at TMNT, then look at Viva Pinata, TMNT Fast Forward, and Chaotic. Not saying those three shows are universally terrible, but there's such a tremendous gap in quality from them and TMNT, and I think it's pretty apparent that Laird was mostly responsible for how TMNT turned out. Not that I don't still give 4Kids credit for allowing Laird's input to the extent they did, but I highly doubt 4Kids could give us anything near the TMNT level on their own. And yes, I realize those three aforementioned shows are somewhat of co-productions themselves, but so much of 4Kids' involvement shows through in all of them I think they are great examples of what another 4Kids original would be like.

Rud

10-21-2007, 06:36 PM

Exactly. I used to defend 4Kids to the hilt because, for as much as I disliked them releasing their acquisitions dub only and with relatively poor dubs at that, I always fell back on how wonderful TMNT was.

But look at TMNT, then look at Viva Pinata, TMNT Fast Forward, and Chaotic. Not saying those three shows are universally terrible, but there's such a tremendous gap in quality from them and TMNT, and I think it's pretty apparent that Laird was mostly responsible for how TMNT turned out. Not that I don't still give 4Kids credit for allowing Laird's input to the extent they did, but I highly doubt 4Kids could give us anything near the TMNT level on their own. And yes, I realize those three aforementioned shows are somewhat of co-productions themselves, but so much of 4Kids' involvement shows through in all of them I think they are great examples of what another 4Kids original would be like.

mabey its just that no one (japanese company's) wants to co-produce anything with 4kids because they know how crappy they are.

Silverstar

10-21-2007, 06:42 PM

Considering Bratz and Winx Club were their highest rated shows, I'm surprised they dont try to do more girl shows (then again, Doremi and Mew Mew bombing probably scared them off from that)

Currently 4Kids is only interested in shows which somehow pertain to games, hence the whole 'Game Station' makeover. There aren't too many girls games that would be suitable to be made into shows, unless someone's going to suggest turning Mary-Kate & Ashley: License to Drive into a series.

Master Moron

10-21-2007, 07:10 PM

Currently 4Kids is only interested in shows which somehow pertain to games, hence the whole 'Game Station' makeover. There aren't too many girls games that would be suitable to be made into shows, unless someone's going to suggest turning Mary-Kate & Ashley: License to Drive into a series.

They seriously have a game with that title? You know, if they had a game called "Mary-Kate and Ashley: License to Kill" it might be pretty cool.

EscaflownePilot

10-21-2007, 07:11 PM

Currently 4Kids is only interested in shows which somehow pertain to games, hence the whole 'Game Station' makeover. There aren't too many girls games that would be suitable to be made into shows, unless someone's going to suggest turning Mary-Kate & Ashley: License to Drive into a series.But keep in mind they have a whole 'nother block to program for next fall when they take over Kids' WB. And I highly doubt this "Game Station" image is going to last.

Andrew T. Hingson

10-21-2007, 09:05 PM

Well guys you have to face the reality that 4kids isn't going under any time soon. So this suggestion is more of a "keep them away from existing properties" suggestion more than anything else.

Granted Laird IS the reason TMNT was a quality production until Fast Forward but maybe a really good Japanese director could do the same thing for a co-pro with a Japanese studio. They COULD just produce it themselves but a co-pro is more cost effective and we're better off with someone helping them then leaving them to their own devices (the world has enough bad cartoons as it is).

YoshiAngemon

10-22-2007, 12:31 PM

Seeing as how they have the Game Station Moniker, I'd be shocked if they picked up Bomberman Jetters! If they did that, they better get help from Hudson Entertainment! Otherwise, I'll stick to the subbed stuff I watch on YouTube.

DrTooth

10-22-2007, 01:34 PM

Granted Laird IS the reason TMNT was a quality production until Fast Forward but maybe a really good Japanese director could do the same thing for a co-pro with a Japanese studio.

But then of course, Laird is also the reason why the show was cancelled abruptly, dispite actually being more popular than the 2k3 series with kids. I blame them for the writing, and the Fox censor people for having it toned down to the nub, due to their reaction with Nightmare Recycled and Insane in the Membrain.

Honestly, at this point, i want to say that 4Kids would look into the original version of Dinoking, Mushiking (look it up). Same exact show, but with bugs instead of Dinosaurs.

I don't see them grabbing anything too important, as they royally screwed up One Piece. and not just the edits. They pretty much didn't care about the show outside of the dub as well. Rotten time slots, canning it from their network after a season and a half.

So their next "big" project would probably be more reruns or some claptrap from Italy. The Japanese stuff is getting too expensive, and it's no longer worth it, since they wind up screwing something up so bad and sitting on the rights, older fans never get a chance to see a decent dub with uncut DVD's. Then they send them hate mail over and over.

Andrew T. Hingson

10-22-2007, 03:16 PM

But then of course, Laird is also the reason why the show was cancelled abruptly, dispite actually being more popular than the 2k3 series with kids. I blame them for the writing, and the Fox censor people for having it toned down to the nub, due to their reaction with Nightmare Recycled and Insane in the Membrain.

Laird didn't get any version of TMNT animation canned so what are you talking about?

Fast Forward was canned because the toys weren't selling well enough.

Undrave

10-22-2007, 06:33 PM

If they want to do something like that they first need to find someone who understands the shonen code and how those series work. Without that no success.

It would end up like Chaotic, a pale imitation of hobby anime. Those who wrote obviously have no idea how to make a successful hobby anime.

D Dubbs

10-22-2007, 06:41 PM

Wasn't Capsule Monsters a co-production with Japan?

It did okay on 4Kids TV, but not great, so I'm not sure that 4Kids would want to try something like that again.

Jeff Harris

10-22-2007, 07:00 PM

You know, Sketch, there was a show with action that was a co-production of 4Kids and a major Japanese animation studio a few seasons back.

It had action, adventure, suspense, and strong characters. Based on an existing worldwide brand, it brought the franchise into the 21st century.

And it bombed . . . horribly.

The show was G.I. Joe: Sigma Six. It was the series that soured 4Kids' relationships with both Hasbro AND GONZO.

So, lessee. Toei doesn't like 4Kids. Gonzo doesn't like them. Right now, I can assume that Nelvana isn't too crazy about 4Kids decision to make DiGata Defenders online-only. Hasbro isn't too crazy about them. Nobody likes 4Kids.

Except Warner Bros, who's paying them a bundle to program their Saturday morning block next season to replace the one that's constantly beating the Fox block 4Kids currently programs (and will do so next season as well).

D Dubbs

10-22-2007, 07:43 PM

Nobody likes 4Kids.

Sunrise and Sega still like 4Kids (hence, Dinosaur King)...

Microsoft co-produces Viva Pinata with them...

Mirage Studios and Playmates still work with 4Kids on TMNT...

Jeff Harris

10-23-2007, 02:33 PM

Sunrise and Sega still like 4Kids (hence, Dinosaur King)...That's because they're selling something.

Microsoft co-produces Viva Pinata with them...That's because they're selling something.

Mirage Studios and Playmates still work with 4Kids on TMNT...That's because they're selling something.

See, 4Kids is first and foremost an advertiser. They don't care about the end product, only if the target group is watching the program and buying the products based on the shows. The reason they got into syndication was to help sell products for other companies, like Nintendo, SEGA, Hasbro, Live Nation, and others. Shows that sell products (that they get a cut of) will remain on the block and positioned in prime slots. Others tend to get pushed aside. You see more shows like Yu-Gi-Oh, Fast Forward, Dinosaur King, Sonic X, and Viva Pinata, all of which have strong merchandising behind them over shows like Ultimate Muscle and One Piece (a lot of the money went to Viz, the property's publishing holders, rather than 4Kids), Tokyo Mew Mew, Winx Club, or Cramp Twins (properties they don't outright own). If The Adrenaline Project had merchandising behind it, you'd bet your butt that it'd be on at a better time. I'm sure when DiGata's merchandise comes out in the States, it'll be back on-air.

To make a long story short (too late), if a company seems to like 4Kids, it's because 4Kids is selling something for them. Bottom line.

DrTooth

10-23-2007, 03:40 PM

Laird didn't get any version of TMNT animation canned so what are you talking about?

Fast Forward was canned because the toys weren't selling well enough.

Actually, truth be told, he did. The toys weren't selling really fast, but they sold much better than the pathetic "Paleo patrol" line. One reason the toy line isn't in stores was that the retailors didn't feel the FF toys and the movie toys could co-exist.

But Peter pulled the plug saying when the last of the episodes were done, there shouldn't be anymore. Mainly due to fan complaining, and somehow, i don't think he liked the final project.

Except Warner Bros, who's paying them a bundle to program their Saturday morning block next season to replace the one that's constantly beating the Fox block 4Kids currently programs (and will do so next season as well).

And 4Kids, as we all know is going to bungle the hell out of that. the CW sucks. Upn dragged down an entire network due to the fact no one liked their crap shows. other than WWE and the Chris rock thing, causing an alright network to combine with a weak, pathetic CBS company. Now they're the idiots behind the "take the money and run" Phenom.

Jyose

10-23-2007, 05:41 PM

4kids tried 3 times to find their DBZ

Ultimate Muscle - A moderate success
Shaman King - Dismal Failure
One Piece - Such a failure that the original creators were pissed off.

I'm going to have to agree with Sketch that they either need an anime designed specifically to their whims(A-la Ultimate Muscle) or they need to stop doing anime completely. Also posted on this thread, they are just advertisers, unlike Viz who are distributors, they have a whole other set of hurdles to take care of. If they were able to co-produce a very popular game with Japan that had an Anime and manga with it, I think they'd do pretty well, but when's the last time they had a successful project?

To me, 4Kids is like the middle aged father who tries to get "down" with his kids by talking like a street rapper from the 80s.

Undrave

10-23-2007, 06:05 PM

They tried with Chaotic but they totally miss their mark. Unless the game turns out to be a huge success (which I doubt, I heard it's pretty boring), the whole Chaotic project is gonna turn into a failiure.

They had such potential with their own version of a 'hobby anime' where the character PLAY the game (like in Yu-gi-oh!) instead of the game being based of them (which usually is the downfall of TCG games like DBZ, Naruto, Inu-yasha, Bleach, Shaman King etc etc) but the writers obviously missed the key elements of hobby animes.

In the meantime I got myself a random 'booster' pack for the Di-gata collectable game. It could have used more depth :/ and randomized stone... plus more cards per booster. Two is ridiculous. Couldn't find a starter sadly.

DrTooth

10-23-2007, 06:08 PM

One Piece is actually Toei's fault too. Funimation originally tried to get the rights, by $kids put up more money or something. So it's just as much their own fault as 4Kid's. And with Shaman king? Well, at least they tried. unlike all their other DVD's, they did release them uncut with Japanese Dialogue and Subtitles. Too bad they couldn't sell any, or we could have got the entire series.

Seems 90% of the time, the "president" of the company has no freaking clue about what he's doing, and just screws things over. I wouldn't doubt for a second half the reason Nintendo did their own Pokemon dub was they were P.o'd at 4Kid's messing up the sucess of Kirby (they even had a line of toys to produce, we just got kids meal premiums), and whatever they could get of FZero (which, face it, no matter who dubbed it, it was going to be nothing more than a repetitive suckfest).

If they're close to bankrupcy, how do they stay in business? and if money is an issue, why don't they just sell their anime rights to someone who actually knows how to handle a product? Someone who can redub them and release them Uncut.
You see, most people hate 4Kids due to the overediting and Americanization of their anime... not me. I hate them because they constantly screw up and don't know what they're doing. no wonder they're losing in the ratings to Kid's WB. Often times opposite terrible shows.

Undrave

10-23-2007, 06:14 PM

DrTooth

10-23-2007, 06:33 PM

If that's true, which it probnably is (first I ever heard of it) then the DVD's would have been pretty successful.

I remember hearing that Funimation lost both Naruto and one Piece to different companies when trying to bid for them. The company that has Naruto (tell me the name please, I forget) made it a humongous success (even though most of the fans watched the fan subs well before anyone considered exporting it), and 4Kids just couldn't get one piece to work. Crappy dub or not, they consistantly aired it at pointless timeslots that never worked out. And the fact it p.o'd the older fan base was no help either.

But luckily Funimation interviened after 4Kids decided to sit on their thumbs. now they're just sitting on the rights to half the series. And the rights to pretty much all these other animes. I bet if they could sell off some of the more popular lines with fans (Tokyo Mew Mew, Shaman King to name a couple) they could fund a project all their own. And hopefully that isn't flash animated. it would be win win for the company and anime fans everywhere.

I mean, they are running out of Japanese companies to alienate. Tatsunoko productions didn't sell their sould to them yet. Maybe they can buy something off them adn screw it up!

Jyose

10-23-2007, 06:34 PM

They had such potential with their own version of a 'hobby anime' where the character PLAY the game (like in Yu-gi-oh!) instead of the game being based of them (which usually is the downfall of TCG games like DBZ, Naruto, Inu-yasha, Bleach, Shaman King etc etc) but the writers obviously missed the key elements of hobby animes.

I haven't seen any of chaotic at all, how bad is it?
Also I figure that Hobby/Game Anime is falling out of style anyway, and thusly 4Kids is running out of game based anime to pick up from Japan. Either shift their focus to creating their own work or shift entirely to a girl focus with shows like Winx and Bratz.

I thought the common accepted explaination for the discontinuation of uncut DVDs was actually due to a dispute between FUNi and 4Kids over the profits?

Coming up with shonen ideas is something I can do on a dialy basis XD give me a few days and I can give you a full on toyetic franchise AND a TCG with full rules ready to be put into motion. Give me some parameters and a theme and I'll cook you a receipe for success 4Kids!

Drop me a line, we'll talk. I'm pretty innexpensive too.

XDGet back in line!

And Viz has Naruto

Undrave

10-23-2007, 06:47 PM

I haven't seen any of chaotic at all, how bad is it?
Also I figure that Hobby/Game Anime is falling out of style anyway, and thusly 4Kids is running out of game based anime to pick up from Japan. Either shift their focus to creating their own work or shift entirely to a girl focus with shows like Winx and Bratz.

Well...it's not terrible per sey...but it just lacks the 'spark' that makes you want to play the game.

There's a total lack of overarching narrative, something even Beyblades had. Theres a few arc stories and that's it.

Two seasons in and nobody has yet to question WHY Chaotic exists and where it comes from?! Unbelieveable!

And what I consider the biggest sin of all in this faux-hobby anime: The characters decks have ZERO personality. Beyond knowing that Kaz plays underworlder and just so happen to have in his deck THE big boss of the Underworld and Tom the same for Overworlder (undermining both character's credibility as big shot leader if you ask me), I can't tell you what else they play. They seem to only have a small stock of monster models animated (lame monsters IMHO too) and to make things worst those monsters lack any sort of specialty beyond a few episode specific trick.

Basically in that show anybody can end up playing anything.

You just don't do that in that type of show. The humans and the monsters totally lack any uniqueness in their battle style. Tsk tsk tsk.

and what do you mean get back in line? :p

Jeff Harris

10-23-2007, 06:57 PM

And 4Kids, as we all know is going to bungle the hell out of that. the CW sucks. Upn dragged down an entire network due to the fact no one liked their crap shows. other than WWE and the Chris rock thing, causing an alright network to combine with a weak, pathetic CBS company. Well, to be fair, The WB wasn't the best-ran network either. Aside from a handful of shows, The WB barely registered a blip on the American consciousness. The CW took The WB's schedule and much of its management, a majority of The WB's last-season shows, and Kids' WB, which kept its name despite being a part of The CW.

The CW is essentially The WB with UPN shows. Even the name is essentially the same (rarely seeing just CW ala UPN). Everything from The WB, with the exception of Smallville, Supernatural, and Beauty and the Geek, is gone. Everything from UPN, with the exception of Chris, Girlfriends, Next Top Model, and Smackdown, is gone. The WB actually got a chance to say goodbye to its audience. UPN, "thanks" to Fox owning most of the major market UPN affiliates, didn't.

And the only thing The WB did right (at least for the first five years) was Kids' WB, and it'll be gone after this season.

Yes, The CW sucks.

Jyose

10-23-2007, 07:02 PM

and what do you mean get back in line? :p

Thanks for the damning overview of Chaotic, the show is about as Chaotic as it's namesake

Get back in line because if anyone's pitching doomed-from-the-start series to 4kids, it's gonna be me!

I have a wonderful series about electronic talking Wildebeasts who, with their affinity to their human partners, destroy the forces of evil. These electronic wildebeasts(called Elewildebeasties) evolve when they find something called a Pepsi crystal. An evolved elewildebeastie will fuse with it's owner creating a elewildebeaman, who has the power to do various tricks. The evil Coke corporation is using captured elewildebeasties to power their factories which cements their dominion on the world. It's up to 10 year old Alphonse Elrick and his elewildebeastie Schmonic to save the world. But get this, Alphonse is ditzy, childish, and inexperienced, have we seen that before? NO Also there's his partner Clobberella who beats you up.

Undrave

10-23-2007, 07:18 PM

Thanks for the damning overview of Chaotic, the show is about as Chaotic as it's namesake

Get back in line because if anyone's pitching doomed-from-the-start series to 4kids, it's gonna be me!

I have a wonderful series about electronic talking Wildebeasts who, with their affinity to their human partners, destroy the forces of evil. These electronic wildebeasts(called Elewildebeasties) evolve when they find something called a Pepsi crystal. An evolved elewildebeastie will fuse with it's owner creating a elewildebeaman, who has the power to do various tricks. The evil Coke corporation is using captured elewildebeasties to power their factories which cements their dominion on the world. It's up to 10 year old Alphonse Elrick and his elewildebeastie Schmonic to save the world. But get this, Alphonse is ditzy, childish, and inexperienced, have we seen that before? NO Also there's his partner Clobberella who beats you up.

Except *I*'m serious. My ideas aren't the kind to be doomed from the start.