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G. Wen
10-13-2007, 12:17 AM
No, this isn’t what you think; I’m not going on a rant about “misogynist” wrestling. One Fri. night, with waaaay too much time on my hands, I decided I wanted to find out about the origins of entertainment wrestling (I’m weird like that). That’s when I ran across this article (I quoted the segment of greatest interest to me):

Professional wrestling also has a great deal in common with the ideological underpinnings of the American carnival tradition, which according to Phillip McGowan "placed the subversive on display" and allowed Americans to define what was normal and what was "Other" (McGowan, 2). Sometimes, this is easy to see. One of the most enduring heel characters in professional wrestling has been the anti-American "foreigner, usually tied to on-going geopolitical crises. In an early-1980s contest pitting the Iron Sheik against uberpatriot Sergeant Slaughter, what is "Other" and what is "normal" is quite obvious. But the "Other" represented in the ring is more than geographical. Non-white, non-Anglo wrestlers often find their identities reconstructed as gimmicks: Ron Simmons, WCW's first black world champion, later competed in the WWF as Farooq, the leader of a militant black faction called the "Nation of Domination." Similarly, those who just "don't fit in" also make easy "Others." Scott Levy, after an initial WWF run as spoiled rich boy "Johnny Polo," transformed himself into Raven, a nihilistic, apathetic product of early 1990s grunge-his finisher, the "Evenflow DDT," recalled an early Pearl Jam song. Mick Foley, in his first WWF incarnation, portrayed Mankind, a leather-masked freak that had been confined to a basement since childhood and who reputedly enjoyed pain. Although the heel "Other" may occasionally, win, in the long run he is usually beaten by the face, who represents the "normal" side of American life. Wrestling fans, like carnival goers, could therefore encounter a menacing "Other" that was contained and ultimately defeated.
While the most common formula for wrestling before the "Attitude Era" was for the virtuous face to use his brute force and skill to overcome the trickery of the "Other" heel, in recent years "Others" have been pushed as faces. In an obvious, but ephemeral, example, the Oddities, promoted as a group of sideshow freaks, enjoyed a brief WWF run as fan-favorites. As American society has become more inclusive, wrestling has adapted. Today, the "Other" is just as likely to be the face as the heel, and a character like the clean-cut real-life Olympic gold medallist Kurt Angle is entrenched as a heel, while the painted, wig-wearing, sexually ambiguous Goldust is a beloved face-something that would have been unthinkable ten years ago.
www.dieiscast.com/AR_CarnivalEntertainment.html (http://www.dieiscast.com/AR_CarnivalEntertainment.html)


How the hell does this relate to women? Well, there was 1 thing that always bothered me about entertainment wrestling: NONE OF THE WOMEN WRESTLERS (TO THE BEST OF KNOWLEDGE) COULD WRESTLE! I have no problem with them wearing skimpy clothes (many guys wear less than the women). I have no problem with them looking “perfect” (most guys are also perfect athletically built). But none of them could wrestle! Their wrestling matches only serve to enhance their seemingly sole purpose: eye candy. Bra and Panties Match. Wresting moves consisting of girls just hugging and rolling around on the floor. I know it’s a guy’s show, and I know no one wants to see Ugly in skimpy clothes (me included), but is that that difficult to find attractive women who can wrestle?

Well, keeping in mind the article I just quoted, and keeping in mind this is NOT 1950 (when women were only expected to stay at home), do you think a female wrestler will be cast as a face or a heel if she behaved like this, if she can get cast at all:

1. She fights in swimsuits/bikinis/etc. But she will only perform in matches that
showcase her stunt skills, not her eye candy appeal. So contract wise, she will decline to do Bra and Panty matches, and other matches in similar nature. She will not brag about her decision in the ring, or talk down to women who decide to do those matches, because she has no right to criticize how others present their bodies.

2. She will work out to keep her sexy figure (like the guys). But she will not get cosmetic enhancements (also like the guys).

3. Contract wise, she will also decline to do Playboy shoots. She will not brag about this in the ring.

Will you watch a wrestler like that? Do you think a large enough audience will want to watch her? Or do you think she will be considered dangerous and subversive to the cultural fabric, and will only be cast as a heel? If you think the later, can you explain why?

I decided to post this because it’s something I think about, and because I know people here will discuss things without making immature statements such as, “U IZ FEM NAZI AND U IZ THE SUCK!!!!111!!”

Moto Pete
10-13-2007, 06:03 AM
it is what it is

The Weed Of Cri
10-13-2007, 07:40 AM
The sexed-up promotion of female "wrestlers" is a relatively recent innovation, and one that could probably (along with so much else that has gone wrong with the sport) be laid at Vince McMahon's feet. Go back 20 years or more and you'll find an entirely different world where women wrestlers were required to have the same rings chops as the best of the men. Some of them, like Wendy Richter and Leilani Kai were good-looking gals, but they'd have been considered much too bulky for Playboy spreads or swimsuit calendars. And there were a lot of others like The Fabulous Moolah (who continued to wrestle into her 60's) and Dump Matsumoto, whom no one would ever accuse of being beautiful, who were enormously popular with male and female wrestling fans and were tough enough to put on very intense and brutal shows for their fans.

The Non Human
10-13-2007, 03:32 PM
The sexed-up promotion of female "wrestlers" is a relatively recent innovation, and one that could probably (along with so much else that has gone wrong with the sport) be laid at Vince McMahon's feet. Go back 20 years or more and you'll find an entirely different world where women wrestlers were required to have the same rings chops as the best of the men. Some of them, like Wendy Richter and Leilani Kai were good-looking gals, but they'd have been considered much too bulky for Playboy spreads or swimsuit calendars. And there were a lot of others like The Fabulous Moolah (who continued to wrestle into her 60's) and Dump Matsumoto, whom no one would ever accuse of being beautiful, who were enormously popular with male and female wrestling fans and were tough enough to put on very intense and brutal shows for their fans.

pretty much the bulk of how i would respond to all of this....before vince mcmahon got into the whole 'crash tv' period in the late nineties, he had moolah, wendy richter etc.in serious bouts for the women's championship. you still had you're eye candy valets like elizabeth and in the nwa precious, baby doll and such...but alongside that you still had legit female wrestling that didn't have to turn to lingerie pillowfights for attention. of course in todaty's reality tv crazed world it only further hinders american women's wrestling to the point where almost every women has to be a glitzy, sexy drama queen with a bland, generic look. vince is always looking to cash in on the reality craze in any way that he can and it usually involves the women's division....as far as i know, in japan women's wrestling is still very much intense and a serious competition.

PTurkey
10-13-2007, 08:53 PM
is that that difficult to find attractive women who can wrestle?
WWE's approach seems to be "find attractive women and then teach them to wrestle" as evidenced by Candice Michelle, Maria, Michelle McCool and even Trish Stratus. They had a lot of really good female wrestlers in their developmental systems, but they didn't use them and they fired them. But to their credit, they have a good amount of female wrestlers in their main roster right now: Mickie James, Beth Phoenix, Melina and Victoria. They're good, but boob jobs seem to be mandatory in WWE, which hinder their athletic talents, which sucks.

TNA's approach seems to be "find attractive women wrestlers." TNA looks like it's off to a good start in promoting legitimate women's wrestling. Gail Kim, Tracy Brooks, Jackie Moore, Roxxi Laveaux, Christy Hemme, Amazing Kong, Talia Madison, Angel Williams, and ODB are all trained, competent wrestlers. Shelly Martinez, I'm not so sure about.

Outside of the big two, there are dozens of attractive women who can wrestle on the American independent wrestling scene and even more in Japan and Mexico. SHIMMER Women Athletes, an independent promotion based outside of Chicago affiliated with the third largest promotion Ring of Honor, is America's most prominent stage for non-WWE/TNA female wrestlers. WWE and TNA seem to have taken notice of them and signed some of SHIMMER's talent. It's excellent. Shimmerwrestling.com! Buy the DVDs!

So yeah, they exist, you just need to know where to look.


Will you watch a wrestler like that? Do you think a large enough audience will want to watch her? Or do you think she will be considered dangerous and subversive to the cultural fabric, and will only be cast as a heel? If you think the later, can you explain why?Yes, I would, and I think Lita in her prime would be the best modern example of a face woman that didn't rub sex in the viewer's face that got really popular, so a face character like that definitely could work, but as long as certain people are in power, I don't see it happening again in WWE any time soon unless it's as a prudish heel.

tucsoncoyote
10-13-2007, 11:28 PM
Actually the Issue of Women Wrestlers goes a long way back to at least the mid 1980's here when you had women like Wendy Richter come along and try to make women seem equally strong as men. And that in itself seems okay even by today's standards.

But if you really want to look at how Wrestling and women have sunk to a new Low, you have to look no farther than at Gorgeous Ladies Of Wrestling (or G.L.O.W., for short.)

This series started in 1985, and for the next 5 years, G.L.O.W. literally took women and wrestling and turned it into sort of an exploitive "Jigglevision" kind of look, sort of what Master of Cri calls "Lingerie based pillow fights.

I mean I still recall the days when you had names like Debby Debutante, and Babe, the Farmer's Daughter, going up against women with names like The Heavy Metal Sisters, and Palestina. In fact i still remember seeing one show where they literally had the women in the ring doing what is called a "Street fight" Anything goes, including the costumes. Luckily the Folks at the Rivieria pulled the plug on that fight, before the FCC came down on them. But G.L.O.W. still exists today and even there's been talk of these folks coming back online. Pretty scary stuff when you have this kind of female exploitation on Television.

So what does this mean for Women and wrestling? Well even though Some folks would consider the WWE and TNA to be legit cases and that Women are being used much in the same way as the original Idea (A la Wendy Richter) most folks won't turn off the tube. But then I have a feeling this is part of the same G.L.O.W. mentality. Get women up on stage to wrestle in skimpy outfits, and let the human hormonal libido kick into overdrive.. I guess after G.L.O.W. came along, a lot of what you see on both the WWE, and TNA, are in fact nothing more than G.L.O.W. wannabes, except maybe Lita.. But then I've given up on wrestling long ago.. Frankly seeing this kind of thing, borders on the G.L.O.W. mentality and if McManon is trying to be another David B. McLane and try to put the "G.L.O.W." in women's wrestling..

But that's my spin on this..

Oh and in case anyone wants to dispute this I suggest they look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgeous_Ladies_of_Wrestling)for what I am talking about. (And if folks think Wikipedia is wrong on this one, I suggest they read the article..after all this is where today's female wrestling idea McMahon is trying to push on all of the folks.. After all P.T. Barnum was right.. "There's a rube sucker born every 60 seconds.")

:coyote:

krazymed
10-15-2007, 05:37 PM
Trish Stratus was awesome, but she set a horrible precedent. She proved that WWE can get away with placing beauty over talent. She's the exception that proves their rule. Why else would Candace Michelle get a title reign?

Now while I agree that G.L.O.W. was bad, it was never WWE bad. I was secretly glad that the Diva Search was a total disaster at live events, because it exposed all the faults of bringing in "sexy" women and then just assuming the wrestling would come natually. They had to move it to the website because it made the company look bad on TV.

And when the women do have time to wrestle, you'd be lucky to see them actually have a 5-minute match or characters that mean anything. Mickie James wrestled in 15-minute indy matches, yet she comes into WWE as a lesbian stalker. Beth Pheonix did the same thing, but she's the female Brock Lesnar in a 2-minute drill every time she's out there. Victoria had a psycho gimmick that wasn't dependant on her looks at all, and now she's resorted to carrying around a male cheerleader.

Much like men's wrestling, WWE and TNA (to a much smaller degree now) are not the places to go if people want to actually see women's wrestling. There's Shimmer, Chickfight, IWA-MS.