Do you love Lain?

[IkeTheMachine]

because i've always been a huge fan...

[Morgan Sloat]

Always? lol there's only 13, but yes, despite it being weird, it's very cool.

[Sheamon]

Yep, one of my favorites :)

[Kesh]

Never seen it, but I'd really like to.

[Matt Hazuda]

I got the box set for Xmas, and I just finished up disc 2 and will start on 3 soon. I'm really enjoying this series! The opening song "Duvet" is one of my fav anime songs, and the opening is really good too! This seems like it would be grea on Adult Swim either Saturday or Sunday. I think I'm gonna have to watch it every disc all in one sitting when I'm done so I can completely get it. It's definately not a onme-time watch series. So Matt or anyone else in the know, any chance CN will pick this up? It doesn't seem like it has much in the way of edits(at least what I've seen so far) and would be a step in the right direction if they're going for more mature shows on AS, plus they have their releationship with Pioneer, who distributed this series.

[randomguy]

I dunno. It's too surreal and weird for me, in the sense that it's oddness is an effective tool to mask that it doesn't mean anything. I think anime creators have an old trick of making things seem deep by making them up as they go along and filling them with psychadelic imagery (see: Evangelion, see: Ghost in the Shell)

[Sheamon]

Oh yes, how could I forget 'Duvet'. :p Best anime opening ever if you ask me :)


So Matt or anyone else in the know, any chance CN will pick this up? It doesn't seem like it has much in the way of edits(at least what I've seen so far) and would be a step in the right direction if they're going for more mature shows on AS, plus they have their releationship with Pioneer, who distributed this series.
I'd go crazy with happiness if that ever happened. But it won't. Ever. Why?
1) Unlike Eva, where religon is just a window dressing that can be removed without effecting the story or characters, in Lain its a huge part of the story. You can't remove it without completely destroying the show, and we know that on CN even the mere mention of anything remotely religous is forbidden (allowing everything but the word 'God' on Cowboy Bebop, removing multiple scenes where Treize presents his athiestic qualities in Gundam Wing, removing the word 'Merry Christmas' from an episode of Big O, etc...).
2) Whats even a bigger reason though is just the basic structure of the show. Its not an action show. Its a surrealistic drama. The 13 episodes basically consist of conversations between Lain and her friends/parents, and scenes in the Wired. Cowboy Bebop made it through relatively uncut, but CB is an action show. So is Pilot Candidate, Outlaw Star, and all the other shows on Adult Swim(not to mention Toonami). Since CN has never shown a show that hasn't had atleast some action(Tenchi Muyo), you certainly can't expect them to have something with none.

And then of course there's the guy who shoots himself in the mouth in the second episode with the blood splashing in Lain's face. Of course thats not something that would keep a show off, they'd just brutalize it with edits :P

Lain on CN's a nice dream, but just that a dream. :(

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by randomguy
I dunno. It's too surreal and weird for me, in the sense that it's oddness is an effective tool to mask that it doesn't mean anything. I think anime creators have an old trick of making things seem deep by making them up as they go along and filling them with psychadelic imagery (see: Evangelion, see: Ghost in the Shell)

Wacky imagery aside, I do think Evangelion does have something to say--its character study is something most shows have not done to that degree. A flawed show, but I think it deserves its hype.

Ghost in the Shell isn't psychedelic, it's dry and political for the most part. YMMV. I thought it was mediocre.

[randomguy]

Yeah I didn't exactly care for it. Kinda hollow in my opinion. You're right, it isn't psychadelic, but it is dry and melodramatic ^_^. As for Eva, that's what everybody says, but I just don't see it. Its like all of its characters operate of Freudian principles taken to the highest extreme- that is to say, all their problems (and Lord knows theres plenty of them) can all be traced to single defining moment and/or attitude. I think its almost comical at times how dramatic the show feels it has to make its characters. Everybody has had at least one parent die, somebodys had sex with the stepmother, somebody saw their brother commit suicide, etc. etc. It's absurd at times- like Metal Gear Solid, for instance. It's just THAT overdone. Not a bad show, just kind of a goofy one.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

I see your point, but on the other hand, a show has no direction and punch if the characters are screwed up for no apparent reason. Or a bunch of reasons. If you're trying to explore your cast, you have to give them some kind of focal point to latch onto. Otherwise, then we'd be complaining about how the show was vague on explaining the characters, especially for a psychiatrically-driven show.

I guess if you're familiar with Ingmar Bergman, then the show does not seem all too strange when compared to his works. I found it, at the very least, different from other anime shows PRECEDING IT. (Many newer shows owe something to Eva or downright rip it off--though not as overdone and much more subtle, even Cowboy Bebop's character studies owe a bit to Eva's)

"Good" different or "bad" different is something up to the viewers, but I cannot totally slam a show that has some chutzpah to do something outside of the realm.

Ghost in the Shell isn't much different from what I've seen before in film...there are plenty of political/sci-fi thrillers out there that do a better job. I'm not sure if I'd call it melodramatic, either...if it was, I would probably have liked it better. If they were crying and yelling and getting over-emotional, it at least would have kept me awake...as it stands, it just seemed dry, monotonous and frankly, boring to me.

[randomguy]

Well I find Ghost in the Shell's melodrama in its headiness- it tries to tackle big issues but is kinda vague and clumsy about it. It's true, everybody rips of EVA (webmaster of toastyfrog.com refers to after 1996 as the AE/DC period- after eva, dumbness comes) but I think it's ripped off more in terms of its random throwaway religious references. Seems like everybody after that point mysteriously started throwing religious crap into their games/animes. One of the most obvious byproducts was Xenogears, so loaded with religious references totally taken out of context it was mind-boggling.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Hard to say...there is certainly an overabundance of religious imagery/context in the show, but I didn't pay too much attention to it as I was trying to get to the meat of the show, which was, in so many words, the creator's personal "therapy" session.

As for it being ripped off by games and shows...I have no doubt about that being true. On the other hand, I've seen a couple of "heavy" religious-imagery shows before Evangelion, such as 1980's Space Runaway Ideon (which has been unfairly overlooked for the last 2 decades).

It's not too bad...I don't mind it if it's done for dramatic purposes, as long as it adds something to the atmosphere or the characters, then I don't have a problem with it. Still, I think shameless religious references have dipped in many recent anime shows. In fact, I'd say there are too many "cute girl kiddie shows" in Japan right now...and not enough overblown pretentious ones.

Personally, I don't mind pretentious shows. I greatly prefer ambitious but flawed shows to stupid and light ones. That is to say, I'd pick an Evangelion over a Love Hina or Slayers any day of the week (sorry Love Hina and Slayers fans). I only ask that they give me some characters with depth and emotion and some interesting situations to go along with it.

Getting back to Ghost in the Shell, I will give props to the fact that Mamoru Oshii is one of the best directors in anime. The look and feel of the film has a very professional and assured presence behind it. It's the screenplay that falters. If they cut out the political backtalk and just focused on the plot--which was actually a very simple plot, when it came down to it--then it might have worked better. Instead watching crusty old guys in suits and ties talk about the various sections in the Japanese investigation branch, I wish the film focused more on these things: Motoko's relationship and obsession with the Puppetmaster...and better dialogue. I can't stress how wrong the dialogue seemed at times...

[Fata Morgana]

Originally posted by Sheamon
Oh yes, how could I forget 'Duvet'. :p Best anime opening ever if you ask me :)


You know it. ;) Though I'm still a little more partial to "Tank!"



I'd go crazy with happiness if that ever happened. But it won't. Ever. Why?
1) Unlike Eva, where religon is just a window dressing that can be removed without effecting the story or characters, in Lain its a huge part of the story. You can't remove it without completely destroying the show, and we know that on CN even the mere mention of anything remotely religous is forbidden (allowing everything but the word 'God' on Cowboy Bebop,


BZZZT! Wrong answer! AS did allow the word "God" on CB, Home Movies, Sealab 2021, and SG: Coast to Coast. What's forbbidden on AS is "God-d@mn." Mentioning religion is allowed on AS, and I really don't see that a whole lot would be edited out of Lain if it were on AS.



removing multiple scenes where Treize presents his athiestic qualities in Gundam Wing, removing the word 'Merry Christmas' from an episode of Big O, etc...).


Yeah, but those were Toonami edits. It's expected that they would be a little silly, since CN is worried about what the parents will say.



2) Whats even a bigger reason though is just the basic structure of the show. Its not an action show. Its a surrealistic drama. The 13 episodes basically consist of conversations between Lain and her friends/parents, and scenes in the Wired. Cowboy Bebop made it through relatively uncut, but CB is an action show. So is Pilot Candidate, Outlaw Star, and all the other shows on Adult Swim(not to mention Toonami). Since CN has never shown a show that hasn't had atleast some action(Tenchi Muyo), you certainly can't expect them to have something with none.


I think I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. Part of the reason they've only shown action is that they're marketing to younger people, and they're thinking is probably that something like Lain wouldn't appeal to that age group. Cowboy Bebop was chosen as the first AS anime simply because (IMHO) it's so appealing, and it really is aimed at an older audience. CB was Cartoon Network's attempt at netting an audience (and I think it worked). Of the other shows that will be on the Saturday AS, most of them were originally part of Toonami, or were intended for Toonami when they were acquired. I really do believe that as time goes on, CN will accquire more diverse, _adult_ titles for Saturday AS.



And then of course there's the guy who shoots himself in the mouth in the second episode with the blood splashing in Lain's face. Of course thats not something that would keep a show off, they'd just brutalize it with edits :P


That one doesn't bother me so much. The point still gets across, even if most of the blood is removed.



Lain on CN's a nice dream, but just that a dream. :(

Watch out! That's what most people used to say about "Cowboy Bebop" :p

Fata Morgana

[Kesh]

Originally posted by Leaping Larry Jojo
Getting back to Ghost in the Shell, I will give props to the fact that Mamoru Oshii is one of the best directors in anime. The look and feel of the film has a very professional and assured presence behind it. It's the screenplay that falters. If they cut out the political backtalk and just focused on the plot--which was actually a very simple plot, when it came down to it--then it might have worked better. Instead watching crusty old guys in suits and ties talk about the various sections in the Japanese investigation branch, I wish the film focused more on these things: Motoko's relationship and obsession with the Puppetmaster...and better dialogue. I can't stress how wrong the dialogue seemed at times...

Hm. You have a point here. I like GitS, but it does get slow in spots. And the dialogue is pretty bad... sometimes it works, but other times it's too stilted, and some of the voice acting is too forced. I still like it though. :)


Originally posted by Fata Morgana
Cowboy Bebop was chosen as the first AS anime simply because (IMHO) it's so appealing, and it really is aimed at an older audience. CB was Cartoon Network's attempt at netting an audience (and I think it worked).

You've got a point here. The only reason I even bothered watching AS was because of the rumors I heard about Cowboy Bebop. Turned out to be quite worth it, and I got a few other laughs along the way (Sealab, Space Ghost).

Of course, now i'm probably going to stick strictly to AS Action, unless another good anime gets tacked onto the Sunday lineup.

[VinceA]

I'm hoping that some good Earth-based (no aliens, mecha, etc) comedic anime gets put in on Sunday nights. Provide a little consistency - yet variety - to Comedy Swim (as opposed to Action Swim)

[Matt Hazuda]

Originally posted by VinceA
I'm hoping that some good Earth-based (no aliens, mecha, etc) comedic anime gets put in on Sunday nights. Provide a little consistency - yet variety - to Comedy Swim (as opposed to Action Swim) This would be a great spot for something like Love Hina(but not necessarily that, since I know there's some haters out there who don't want this on CN :p) Would Slayers count, or would it be more of a ASS(Adult Swim Saturday)?( even though that probably wouldn't happen due to Fox Kids/Disney hold the broadcast rights even though they'll never show it. B*stards) I'm drawing a blank on other comedic animes, anyone else got other suggestions?

[Sheamon]

I think you guys are going a little overboard with the importance of Eva in the anime genre. The thing with Eva is that the perception of it being groundbreaking and influencial is there, but a lot of that simply comes out of the hype that surrounds the show. When you really get down to it, Eva is a show that used many established precendents and ideas and used them excellently. That doesn't make it original or groundbreaking at all. What people forget is that Eva 'ripoffs'(using your language here, although I don't agree with using that term from both sides) many things itself, atleast by using the same standards that the 'ripoff' people use for the shows that they claim ripped off Eva. Mobile Suit Gundam is the biggest thing that comes to mind since Shinji is so similar to Amuro Ray, but you could also throw in Key the Metal Idol (Tokiko-Rei, Sakura-Misato), and obviously Gunbuster. I don't think that 'brings down' Eva by any means, heck, I never even bring it up because I don't care. But when you start talking about the Eva ripoff stuff, you have to realize that by using your standards, Eva is exactly what so many of these shows that you bring up are: a ripoff.

Another aspect of the thing is that many of these 'ripoffs' aren't even close to ripoffs in the first place. Serial Experiments Lain and Eva are nothing alike, but they have a tendency to get lumped together many times. Lain's 'bizarre' scenes aren't psychological. Lain doesn't have religous symbolism like Eva, it actually uses religon in the plot, which Eva doesn't. The same thing can be said with Xenogears to a certain extent, which also mainly uses the religon for its story, although it does have some religous symbolism itself (like the Anima Relics being named after the tribes that split off from Moses, and naming cities after months on the Jewish calender). But then again, Eva wasn't the first to do so, so instead of saying Xenogears ripped off Eva, we should say both ripped off the first show which used it. And don't forget that Xenogears was in production for a while. Before Eva came out. Its hard to be classified as a ripoff when they already started planning the thing before Eva aired as this mega popular show. And Cowboy Bebop? How?! Please explain what you meant by that, because I don't see where you're coming from.

A lot of the Eva ripoff discussion comes simply because it is one of the most popular animes out there. With popularity comes fans who feel they need to start throwing out things like that even if its not true, simply because they want to see their favorite show praised even more. Cowboy Bebop's a perfect example. People say Outlaw Star is a Cowboy Bebop ripoff. Many say it. What they forget is that Outlaw Star came out before CB did. The reason you don't hear 'Cowboy Bebop ripped off Outlaw Star' is because Cowboy Bebop itself is one of the most popular animes out there.

And oh god no... Love Hina on Adult Swim? Even if I hadn't heard the DBZ-level bad dub I wouldn't want it there :(



...Watch out! That's what most people used to say about "Cowboy Bebop"

Well, I certainly hope you're the one who's right about it. It would certainly alleviate any negative feelings I had about the channel right away ^_^ Of course with the way they've been handling things in the past 6 months or so, I find it very hard to be optomistic about the channel until I see some concrete reasons to be. :(

[BebopWeb]

I have heard of lain... but never seen it..

[BebopWeb]

is it worth watching?

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by Sheamon
And Cowboy Bebop? How?! Please explain what you meant by that, because I don't see where you're coming from.

A lot of the Eva ripoff discussion comes simply because it is one of the most popular animes out there. With popularity comes fans who feel they need to start throwing out things like that even if its not true, simply because they want to see their favorite show praised even more. Cowboy Bebop's a perfect example. People say Outlaw Star is a Cowboy Bebop ripoff. Many say it. What they forget is that Outlaw Star came out before CB did. The reason you don't hear 'Cowboy Bebop ripped off Outlaw Star' is because Cowboy Bebop itself is one of the most popular animes out there.



No offense, but you need to condense your post...some of your paragraphs started to repeat themselves...I rubbed out your first few paragraphs and took out a few of the middle, and essentially I've still got the same thing from the paragraphs I'm using here. Not complaining too much about it, I get carried away with my protests as well, but it makes it easier for me if I can nail it down to a few quotes... ;)

Hoo boy, anyway, let's tackle the Cowboy Bebop "ripoff" thing. Note that I did not *say* that Cowboy Bebop "rips off" Evangelion...I merely implied that there is some influence in style. "What?" While the subject manner and pacing on CB is quite different from Eva's, the manner in which the show tackles its characters has a certain similarity to it...the issues of self-identity and introspection have always been staples of anime, but the almost textbook approach in which it handles it...is an Eva staple. As for the Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw Star comparisons...I pay it no mind. They were being produced by the same studio at around the same time, so there is nothing concrete that can be said other than the fact that Sunrise had a western fetish that year.

Besides, we all know the Cowboy Bebop is really a Lupin ripoff. *ducks*

This brings us to Evangelion itself. Is Evangelion an original setup? No, it is not. You can point to Mobile Suit Gundam, Giant Robo and even the older Mazinger Z shows for influence. In my opinion, the greatest source for Evangelion was Space Runaway Ideon, a 1981 show which ended in similar fashion to Eva (the movie). Even shoujo shows like Rose of Versailles and World Masterpiece Theatre's bleaker outings can be seen in Evangelion. So what is it about Evangelion? Strip away the generic setup and context of the show (the aliens, religion, conspiracies) and you have basically a textbook Neo-Freudian analysis of the cast. It has been done in subtler ways before, but rarely in such an open and obvious degree (in anime). Some may even say blunt and unsubtle. I myself have not said if this is actually good or bad. Maybe both. But its blunt handling of "self" and the "id" was, at the very least, different. One could say that it is essentially a dissection of shows like Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta Gundam, and other such "boy in a mecha, rejected by father" works.

In my opinion, the concept of "groundbreaking" isn't something "totally new, never-before-seen," because there is no such thing--everything is an addition or elaboration of something before it.

*Whew* This probably requires an in-depth look at the history of anime in general (not just mecha anime). Do you really want to extend our canvas? I'm game--I'm confident of my knowledge of anime in general to discuss it...

[Sheamon]

No offense, but you need to condense your post...some of your paragraphs started to repeat themselveslol, sorry about that :p


I merely implied that there is some influence in style. "What?" While the subject manner and pacing on CB is quite different from Eva's, the manner in which the show tackles its characters has a certain similarity to it...the issues of self-identity and introspection have always been staples of anime, but the almost textbook approach in which it handles it...is an Eva staple.

I didn't get that out of CB though. In Eva they pointed out character traits very clearly with the psychological scenes which basically consisted of narrating every psychological aspect of the character to you (which worked quite well IMO until the final episode). In CB it seemed to have a much for subtle approach, atleast from my point of view, where the only scene that could be considered 'Eva style' was episode 12 when Faye basically narrated her personality to Gren.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Spike's abstract "self-identity" monologues come to mind...Faye's "finding myself...who am I? What am I?" whining comes to mind...a lot of self exploration in CB, while done in a much subtler style, strikes me as very post-1995. Self-identity monologues have been very "in" since Key and Eva...even older anime like Gunbuster, Zeta Gundam and Armored Trooper Votoms were much more subdued character studies, with the characters' struggles less "hit you over the head" kind of textbook presentation. The characters didn't ask self-identity questions very often in older anime...they simply struggled with it. Something happened during the 90s, and while it could be a number of shows and outside factors, I believe Eva at least contributed to a certain trend, new or not.

I don't believe shows get popular for nothing...even Pokemon was a fairly fresh TV concept when it first hit U.S. airwaves. (Even if it had been common in video games already). I am certain that something in Evangelion struck a chord in the Japanese viewing public, if only for a temporary period. My hypothesis (in brief) is as presented in my previous post...

Now I'm starting to repeat myself.... :o

[randomguy]

I agree with the whole Cowboy Bebop as a post 1995 show. In terms of character study, that is. I think though, Evangelion pretty much popularized the throwaway religous material in Japan. Think how screwed up their idea of Western religion must be by this point. And Xenogears couldn't have been in development pre Evangelion, the Playstation wasn't even released until '95, the year eva came out. And Xenogears' plot shares the so-convulted it's abusurd mentality of Eva. Of course, I'm gonna say something, and that's that in general, anime is deriative stuff that pretends to be intelligent and is taken to be far deeper by fans than it really is, and is more or less, flavor of the week based. What this has to do with anything else, I don't know, I just wanted to say that. Dunno why. Oh, and Cowboy Bebop IS a ripoff of Lupin, deal with it everyone, and while on that subject, who wins in a gunfight, Spike or Daisuke Jigen?

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Well, I know Squaresoft ARE Evangelion fans...there's a blatant "plug suit" reference in Final Fantasy VII...and there was one very obvious Asuka magma diver suit in one of the Midgar laboratories.

But I won't say anything about Xenogears since I haven't played it right to the end yet...

As for anime being "deep" or not...I believe it really is up to the viewer to decide. For instance, no matter how many times I watch it, I don't glean much from Citizen Kane. Some people discuss the multiple meanings or "Rosebud" while I just see some inventive camera tricks. Entertainment Weekly frequently expounds on the sophisticated merits of "Friends" while I just see some aging 30-year olds cracking some bad jokes. But that doesn't mean I'm right; it's just how I see it.

If you gave me the time, I'm sure I could draw up a convincing essay on the social merits of "Pokemon." It's all in the way you choose to see it.

[randomguy]

That, my friend, is a good point. I guess it all comes down to one thing: I hate Evangelion, and I criticize every chance I get. That's just the kinda guy I am. Could I do better? Well, I'm working on an animated pilot right now, so I'm trying....

[Matt Hazuda]

Suprsing how a discussion about Lain changes into the "deepness" of Eva isn't it? :p

[randomguy]

Occurences like that seem to be pretty frequent around here.

[Sheamon]

Spike's abstract "self-identity" monologues come to mind...Faye's "finding myself...who am I? What am I?" whining comes to mind...a lot of self exploration in CB, while done in a much subtler style, strikes me as very post-1995. Self-identity monologues have been very "in" since Key and Eva...

Yeah, thats arguable. Although its not like the self-identity exploration first arose in the 1994-1996 period. I dunno, I simply haven't gotten the 'feel' from Cowboy Bebop that it had the same kind of 'bang you over the head'-'we're gonna dictate all the character traits to you' thing.


I think though, Evangelion pretty much popularized the throwaway religous material in Japan. Think how screwed up their idea of Western religion must be by this point.
Except Eva doesn't really bash or screw around with the opinions of those who don't follow western religon. ^_~ Atleast from my view point, using a few religous terms to make the show more cool and controversial doesn't equate to screwing around with the religon.



And Xenogears' plot shares the so-convulted it's abusurd mentality of Eva.
Except Eva doesn't have a convoluted plot. Its a rather simple one actually. Fight angel. Character development. Repeat ad nauseum. The 'confusing' or 'convoluted' part of Eva dealt with the character studies and their habit of totally neglecting certain things in the storyline like the Eva series and the lance, but then again they weren't really part of the plot, atleast from the series standpoint. And unlike Eva, Xenogears(not to mention Lain) uses religon for the plot, its not like they looked at Eva, saw that the use religous terms made it more popular, and decided to follow suit. Its not like Eva where you can throw away any and all use of religon and have the show in tact.

I'm not an Eva-hater/basher, whatever, I enjoyed it immensely. But its taken to so many extremes on so many levels that it drives me crazy, especially when it comes to the insane over-glorification of its effect on the market.


Of course, I'm gonna say something, and that's that in general, anime is deriative stuff that pretends to be intelligent and is taken to be far deeper by fans than it really is, and is more or less, flavor of the week based. What this has to do with anything else, I don't know, I just wanted to say that. Dunno why.
I think many animes are very intelligent and portray themselves as such in a proper way. But I will say that many fans, especially Eva fans tend to go overboard with it.

[Wyloms]

I love Lain I bought the series a long time ago when it first came out. I knew nothing about it other then it won a award in japan. I had bought the first video twice trying to get the collecter sticker but never got them I did get the last 3 but my collection looks stupid with out the first sticker. Oh lain on Adult swim I doubt that even people who like anime might not like lain cause its to hard to follow the whole "Wired thing" and Lain being the...... Well I don't want to ruin it for people who never watched it so I will just say it is a good series even for 13 episodes.