Marvel Versus DC: Comparing "Ultimate Avengers" and "Superman Doomsday"

[James Harvey]

Last year saw the release of Marvel's first DTV feature, The Ultimate Avengers, a DTV based on the Marvel comic The Ultimates. A sequel, Ultimate Avengers 2, was also released last year. Last month, DC released their first "DC Universe" DTV project, Superman Doomsday, based on The Death of Superman. This is the first DTV project from DC to be based explicitly on a comic storyline and not previously based on an animated series, in one form or another. Naturally, many users have compared Superman Doomsday to The Ultimate Avengers, to either reinforce facts or provide simple comparisons.

So, naturally, what if we directly compared the two similar projects?


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/jimharvey/ualogo.jpg http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/jimharvey/sdlogo.jpg

So what are your thoughts on comparing these two movies, something fans having doing already across the internet. Is there even a comparison to be made? And if so, how would you compare them? Does one excel over the other? How is one better than the other in that respect? In short, which was is better?

Can these two movies be compared and, if so, what comparisons can be made between The Ultimate Avengers and Superman Doomsday?

Please understand this thread is for discussion on this topic only. If you wish to individually examine these two respective movies, then please click on their respective links below.

Related Threads:
-The Ultimate Avengers Feature Talkback (Spoilers) (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=160936)
-Superman Doomsday Feature Talkback (Spoilers) (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=197608)

Note: Topics such as this can be volatile, so please be respectful of each other. Any users who flame others, post unecessary and/or rude remarks will be issued a warning as seen fit by the moderators. Please be respectful of each other.

[Dusty]

Superman Doomsday for sure, Marvel just can't get it together when it comes to animated movies, (and some live action ones)


D.

[SaBaWoJuLe]

Normally we would compare Superman: Doomsday with all four Marvel DTVs, but since it's just one, I'll follow suite.

Out of all four, Ultimate Avengers was the only one I liked. Ultimate Avengers 2 wasn't to my liking, Iron Man wasn't very good, and I got tired from Doctor Strange (maybe a second viewing will change my mind). So UA1 was the only one I liked. I liked how they came up with the idea of placing the two arcs that made up the first The Ultimates onto one another instead of having one arc and concluding with the other, creating some sort of gear shift in-between the movie. However, this movie was in no way a PG-13 film. It was actually a PG one. Yes, there is a World War II sequence, and blood, but it's played safe like on a animated series. And even the blood are just scars. Yes, there is a more detailed animation, but it looks cheap. Ultimate Avengers was not a PG-13 rated movie, it more like a PG rated pilot for a show. So the marketing of the film being PG-13 was a lie.

Now with Superman: Doomsday; Bruce Timm did what he did before in BTAS and JLU where he took a story from the comics, and made it better. The Death of Superman had some flaws, and the DTV adapation is so much better. Superman's death is more heroic, and it is more Superman-like. And despite the fact that the whole storyline would be too much to adapt, he took a great idea by having the ideas that made up the comic version into the movie version. And the one thing that beats the Marvel DTVs as a whole: it is really a PG-13 movie. From the blood, to the action, to the scenes between Lois & Superman, it is matured and fits the PG-13 rating well. Something Ultimate Avengers failed with.

So because of all that, Superman: Doomsday wins!

[Tempest]

I like BOTH ULTIMATE AVENGERS 1&2 by FAR over SUPERMAN DOOMSDAY! Captain America was portrayed better than he ever has been on TV and was much closer to his 616 Steve Rogers than he was an "Ultimate". ALSO a much more charismatic protagonist than Superman could dare to be.

AND I like EVERYTHING else better about UA in every way shape and form over SUPERMAN/DOOMSDAY. ESPECIALLY the detailed UA designs over Bruce Timm's lazy been-there-done-that streamlined dustoffs. ULTIMATE AVENGERS was EPIC to me and something I can watch over and over. S/D I had almost no desire for a second viewing I was sooo dissapointed.

There's a lot of Bruce Timm fawning here, so expect this bias to apply on the voting just for people to choose SUPERMAN/DOOMSDAY on the mere basis Timm did it. But I'm just not seeing the same movie as the folks that dig S/D, it had too too many stripped down half baked negatives for me. And also as far as a PURE comic adaptation it's not even close.

[batsy2]

in my opinion DC Comics comes up with better stuff than marvel it has better storyline batter action and good choice in voice actors

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

I thought both movies had pretty thin stories, but as 'Superman: Doomsday' greatly surpasses 'Ultimate Avengers' in animation and voice acting.

[Wolf Boy2]

Ultimate Avengers hands down. It introduced a whole team, while Superman: Doomsday rehashed something that is being done in two shows and a feature film (and only a year after JLU ended). Ultimate Avengers reinvented a franchise that had not been used since the 1990s. Superman: Doomsday gave us MORE Superman in an era where we are already drowning in him.

[Tempest]

Ultimate Avengers hands down. It introduced a whole team, while Superman: Doomsday rehashed something that is being done in two shows and a feature film (and only a year after JLU ended). Ultimate Avengers reinvented a franchise that had not been used since the 1990s. Superman: Doomsday gave us MORE Superman in an era where we are already drowning in him.

VERY well said! I agree with every word.:cool:

[Dean Cain]

I've enjoyed pretty much everything Bruce Timm has done, but Superman/Doomsday felt pretty shallow all things considered. Sure it was a great couple fights, and I liked the portrayal of Superman, but overall there wasn't much there.

I still rate it above Ultimate Avengers though, because UA was just so awful. The voice acting wasn't very good, the story was paper thin (As opposed to S/D, which was maybe construction paper thin), and the the only mature thing about it was the amount of blood spattered about. Lame.

[Frank Castle]

I liked Superman Doomsday more. Neither movies were great to begin with but Doomsday was more exciting for me.

[Wolf Boy2]

I still rate it above Ultimate Avengers though, because UA was just so awful. The voice acting wasn't very good, the story was paper thin (As opposed to S/D, which was maybe construction paper thin), and the the only mature thing about it was the amount of blood spattered about. Lame.
Wow. UA was one of my favorite animated movies of all time.

I have to say I connected emotionally more with the Ultimate Avengers characters, like Cap losing his friends and then waking up in another time. SD was just another death of Superman story. SD was like hearing a different group cover an old song. Sure it's a good song, but it's still a cover.

I might also point out that Bruce Timm's streamlined designs were created for a television budget. Bruce Timm's actual artwork is more detailed. So don't nesscessarily diss Timm. However, since the DCAU style was created for a TV budget, it has no place in a movie unless the movie is in DCAU continuity.

I didn't think the animation was even as good as B:TAS in terms of coloring. The two B:TAS movies and even some B:TAS episodes used three-tone coloring on faces and shiny objects, something later eliminated in favor of two-tone "light and shadow" coloring. I can understand cutting down on the tones when dealing with cel animation. I can forgive early JL because digital color techniques were still experimental (hence the reason why JL season 1 has the WORST coloring of the entire DCAU). But a high-budget DTV movie should have a much glossier and lavish color scheme than it had. Ultimate Avengers and the other Marvel DTVs did. Thus far, I think "Subzero" is the best colored comic-based DTV and UA was the best animated.

[lordsmurf]

I've enjoyed pretty much everything Bruce Timm has done, but Superman/Doomsday felt pretty shallow all things considered. Sure it was a great couple fights .... but overall there wasn't much there.

This was my thought too.

Although I have to disagree about Superman. I thought he acted out of character (getting intimate with Lois, yet she didn't know his real identity?).

This is why I like Ultimate Avengers more.

If DC wants to make some great OVAs/DTVs, then use characters we don't see very often (Hal Jordan GL, for example).

The SD movie would have been better with the Superboy/Cyborg over that silly clone. The Eradicator and Steel would have made the movie too long, but the Cyborg/Superboy could have been quickly explained, and stayed a bit more canon to the book.

I'm still wondering why Lex was the poster boy for anorexia. :sad:

[Wonderwall]

I'm still wondering why Lex was the poster boy for anorexia. :sad:

I thought he looked pretty ripped when he was pummeling clone Superman. And Tempest, I don't know if you know this but I don't really care. Just because there are more fancy( and unnecessary) lines in UA doesn't mean: A) That Bruce's designs are lazy, its his style, most artists once they find their niche don't change it drastically. Especially for animation where adding more is actually taking away. This isn't a comic, its a cartoon, alot of extra lines aren't necessary, the force is, and I feel BT's designs are some of the best for animation, maybe not a comic, but then I just addressed that. I like Steve Gordon's designs as well, but Marvel being about dollar signs, pump these out too quickly B) Because of the more simplified style Superman Doomsday overall, was a superior animated movie. The action scenes for both movies were impressive, but the more subtle sequences were like night and day, they were that different, in UA, they looked and moved awkward( unless they were sitting down ), in SD, they were believeable. Im starting to sound like my teacher, but it bothers me you call it lazy, because that's far from the truth.

I chose SD over UA, I felt the character moments won it for me, as the action for both were a tie for me. It wasn't like I thought UA was crap, I actually liked it, but its flaws for me were more apparent. UA 2 I didn't like, as it was same boring enemies, with a boring backdrop as Black Panther and Wakanda, don't interest me, something about jungle settings and superheroes for me don't mesh well. But I like both movies, both weren't great for me, but both good to very good.

[ShadowStar]

The question we should be asking is "Is 'Return of the Joker' beaten by any of the more recent DTVs?", to which the answer is a resounding NO.

But to be on topic, I didn't like Superman: Doomsday much at all. Though the story has been told better before (I prefer JL's "Hereafter"), here it wasn't terribly interesting because we were being thrown into a new world without having the luxury of getting to know these characters first. Result: jarring voice acting and characterisation. I grew accustomed to the new takes on the characters, and their voices, by the end, but I won't like them any more with repeat viewings (though we'll see). Through and through, it seemed as though they were being too ambitious at the wrong times and trying to make something that, in such a format, should have been live-action, into a cartoon. This is not to say a live-action version would have been better, but it would have been easier to roll with, if that makes sense.

[David64]

Superman Doomsday... then again, anything Bruce Timm and Co. does, I know it's going to be gold :D

The Marvel animated movies haven't been as good, and are kinda boring at times... and the animation is not as good. It seems kinda choppy to me.


Plus, I've always been more of a DC fan then a Marvel fan. :sweat:

[Cortez2301]

Both these movies are in my greatest animated movies ever but I would have to choose Superman:Doomsday.Ultimate Avengers was more like an origin story (not that they are bad) but Superman Doomsday had more drama in it.It was incredibly dark and I just loved the action and the characters.
The question we should be asking is "Is 'Return of the Joker' beaten by any of the more recent DTVs?", to which the answer is a resounding NO.I second that.ROTJ and MOTP are still my favourite comic book animated movies ever.

[batsy2]

Superman Doomsday... then again, anything Bruce Timm and Co. does, I know it's going to be gold :D

The Marvel animated movies haven't been as good, and are kinda boring at times... and the animation is not as good. It seems kinda choppy to me.


Plus, I've always been more of a DC fan then a Marvel fan. :sweat:

same here buddy same here

[Spider-Friends]

This is almost seems unfair. I really think the only thing that should matter is what a non-comic fan would think of both of these movies.

I loved the Ultimates comic so much that I think it was hard for me to enjoy Ultimate Avengers. I didn't give a crap about the Death of Superman storyline so I had no problem enjoying Superman: Doomsday.

Still I've tried to watch both with non-comic fan eyes and Superman: Doomsday, while not great, is a better movie.

[JLU Dude]

But I'm just not seeing the same movie as the folks that dig S/D, it had too too many stripped down half baked negatives for me. And also as far as a PURE comic adaptation it's not even close.

Nor was Ultimate Avengers a pure adaption of Ultimates, but Superman: Doomsday for the most part was pretty true to the structure of the Death and Return of Superman as opposed to the Ultimate Avengers DTVs to the Ultimates. That and Wonderwall's right: Ther lack of lines isn't laziness. It's done to try to ensure good animation and added lines take away from that. Just look at most of the 90s X-Men toon when a bad animation studio gets ahold of detailed animated designs.

Though I don't think that the UA models "looked and moved awkward" in the quieter moments, but I may need to rewatch the movie.


The question we should be asking is "Is 'Return of the Joker' beaten by any of the more recent DTVs?", to which the answer is a resounding NO.

No offense, but no one in the talkback thread was comparing it to RotJ. They were comparing it to Ultimate Avengers, as well as the other Marvel DTDVDs.


The SD movie would have been better with the Superboy/Cyborg over that silly clone. The Eradicator and Steel would have made the movie too long, but the Cyborg/Superboy could have been quickly explained, and stayed a bit more canon to the book.

These things are budgeted for so much time and while I'd like to have seen those guys, they have involved backstories and it'd been a tangent. With the clone it was streamlined. That and and regarding Superboy, there's a legal battle over that character.

Neither movie is a strict apartion of their source material. If I wanted to see the stories panel for panel, I'd read the actual comics. But you know what? I have no problem with some of the characters looking different, that Lex Luthor look like his classic bald self or that most of the characters in the Ultimate Avengers DTVs act like their classic selves as opposed to the Ultimate selves.

[ShadowStar]

No offense, but no one in the talkback thread was comparing it to RotJ. They were comparing it to Ultimate Avengers, as well as the other Marvel DTDVDs.



Sorry about that. We were talking about the DTVs and I wanted to ask if anyone agreed with me.

[JLU Dude]

Sorry about that. We were talking about the DTVs and I wanted to ask if anyone agreed with me.

It's okay. You've got nothing to be sorry for.:)

[Wolf Boy2]

I loved the Ultimates comic so much that I think it was hard for me to enjoy Ultimate Avengers. I didn't give a crap about the Death of Superman storyline so I had no problem enjoying Superman: Doomsday.
I've yet to read all of the Ultimates, but I enjoyed the death and return of Superman comics a lot. When I saw UA, I only knew of the 90s cartoons (which UA completely WHUPPED!).


Still I've tried to watch both with non-comic fan eyes and Superman: Doomsday, while not great, is a better movie.
I think people's reasons for liking a movie are more personal than just whether or not they read comics. If they don't like the DTV, chances are they wouldn't like the comic much either.

I've watched Mask of the Phantasm and Return of the Joker with my father and several friends from school. MOTP got a better reception from my dad than ROTJ (he fell asleep during ROTJ, and when I woke him up he yawned, said Batman as a cartoon "just didn't work" in his opinion and didn't even finish the movie). His initial reaction was that Terry was a terrible Batman and looked nothing like the original.

However my school friends were unimpressed with MOTP and enjoyed ROTJ much more. The Cyberpunk themes of Batman Beyond connected more with college students than the 40s noir of B:TAS.

My best friend didn't like UA at all, even though she loved MOTP and ROTJ (especially ROTJ since she's a hardcore metalhead). For me, MOTP and UA are the best specifically because of their old 40s elements. The WWII opening is my favorite part of UA. I also liked the millitary element of UA.

I've don't really connect with romance like Terry and Dana, Bruce and Andrea or Clark and Lois because I've never been in love. That's completely lost on me, and I'd sooner feel an emotional connection with automobile tires than with lovers.

But Captain America as a "man out of time" resonated with me, as I relate to that. My obsessions with swing music and old-time radio drama coupled with being homeschooled and never attending high school, I skipped the entire teenage scene and went straight into college as an absolute space alien. I very much feel like a person from the 40s who woke up in modern times. While I was listening to the Glen Miller Orchestra on records, other kids my age were listening to death metal on iPods. LOL

Plus, Cap is in the Army and I am in college Army ROTC, so that makes me relate to him more. I love the scene where Cap is walking along in his class A (dress uniform) and does a double-take at the freaky goth couple. I RELATE TO THAT! I laughed out loud, because I have been in that exact same situation in the school hallway.

So I guess that's part of why I like UA better. Nobody in Superman: Doomsday really speaks to me as characters. They're just walking, talking, cussing, bleeding and dying plot devices.

[DarkAngel]

I saw Ultimate Avengers last night. I liked it quite a bit. And I'll be watching UA2 tonight or tomorrow, so once I do that, I'll be back with more thoughts.

Comparing SD and UA is hard. They're both pretty solid. Visually, just as far as design and coloring, UA stood out to me more. With SD, during the opening moments on first viewing, I remember being a bit disappointed (more with the color), though that did fade as it progressed.

With the animation, its close. The action came across quite well with both. But SD's was better. I think it was more noticeable with the "quieter" scenes, but even with the more action-oriented moments.

In comparing the heroes, UA wins out. I loved the moments between the Avengers and the various personalities. Of course, that'll probably happen when comparing any team-based movie to one featuring a single hero, so perhaps its not entirely fair. But it's reality.

With the villains, SD comes out ahead. The aliens didn't do much for me, nor for the movie beyond providing motivation to bring the team together. In that sense, obviously, it was needed, but I wish they could have come up with a better threat. And Hulk was great opposition at the end, but he wasn't truly a villain. Neither was the Superman clone, but at least they developed his motivation and the growing sense of threat he represented in way that led more naturally to the climactic confrontation. He wasn't just mindless, uncontrollable rage that was dropped in at then end. Now, Doomsday was. But I prefer him based on visuals, the built-up/setup, and what he was able to do ("kill" Superman), and his placement at the beginning worked better in then allowing the feature to work towards something of greater depth next.

There wasn't a lot of depth of plot with either, but based on better established villains/opposition, SD's worked better and felt more meaningful in the end.

SD wins out with its action as well. In UA, I loved the fight with Hulk, as well as the short bit following Cap's awakening. Some great moves from him there. But with two fantastic lengthy battles vs Doomsday and then the clone, SD's my choice.

Voice-acting I'll call a tie. Music I'll call a tie as well, since generally I take more notice of it on repeated viewings and I've only seen UA once.

Repeatability of viewing I'll give to SD. I've already seen it a couple times. I don't feel as much pull to repeat UA and there aren't as many specific scenes I'd love to re-visit.

One last aspect that comes to mind goes in favor of UA. And that's not being familiar with the Ultimates comics, and therefore having no expectations about what I'd see or even hope to see. The whole thing felt new for me, which was great to experience.

I'm sure I'll think of other aspects and points of comparision, but this is all I've got at the moment. I will be back with more thoughts for certain once I see UA2.

[Tempest]

But Captain America as a "man out of time" resonated with me, as I relate to that. My obsessions with swing music and old-time radio drama coupled with being homeschooled and never attending high school, I skipped the entire teenage scene and went straight into college as an absolute space alien. I very much feel like a person from the 40s who woke up in modern times. While I was listening to the Glen Miller Orchestra on records, other kids my age were listening to death metal on iPods. LOL

Plus, Cap is in the Army and I am in college Army ROTC, so that makes me relate to him more. I love the scene where Cap is walking along in his class A (dress uniform) and does a double-take at the freaky goth couple. I RELATE TO THAT! I laughed out loud, because I have been in that exact same situation in the school hallway.

So I guess that's part of why I like UA better. Nobody in Superman: Doomsday really speaks to me as characters. They're just walking, talking, cussing, bleeding and dying plot devices.

That's a beautiful post man, I actually got a lil choked up. Cap/Steve Rogers in UA (a composite of 616 and ULTIMATE versions) is a faaaar better written characterization along his gobs of protagonist charisma is something that carries UA and nothing and no character in SUPERMAN/DOOMSDAY can touch that.

[Zentron]

The only thing I didn't really like about the UA movies was the way they were coloured. The blur added to the colour edges, the dodge & burn look to it was not the best thing.

[desi]

I was expecting too much of UA. The movie would have more of a chance if they didn't show that near-perfect trailer to promote it. I would love to see the full version of that pilot.

[Sue]

I like the Avengers enough, but I enjoyed the Superman/Doomsday DVD more.

[ifthismeansevos]

Well a problem I had with Superman Doomsday is the fact I saw "Doomsday sanction" just two weeks before.
In S D Doomsday kills a lot of people on screen and off screen. But they are meaningless.
I mean they just help to tell you how dangerous this alien was.
Then you have the JLU episode. Doomsday kills just one guy out of screen but that's the only thing you need to know this guy is crazy and rage driven because he kills a very important character at least for me since i remember the guy in B TAS and the moment i saw him in cadmus i was like oh my gosh!

So S D was just unnecesary. I think the very same thing of Judas Contract (Last time i heard it was one of the next proyects) Why are they doing things they did so very well already?
UA in the other hand is a good proyect because it takes the best of UU and 616 so here you don't have Hulk as a jerk who tested the serum in himself. you got the tragic origin and then he becomes the jerk! much better.

Only thing i regret of UA 2 is the fact the killed Hank Pym before Ultron.
I hope my statements are clear. I've lost practice in my english.

[Miyamoto Musashi]

I haven't seen any DTV from either of the two companies, but Superman: Doomsday has a more interesting looking title

[Spider-Man]

Comparing the two I guess I would have to go with Ultimate Avengers. While I enjoyed Superman Doomsday I thought Ultimate Avengers had a better story even if the bad guys were just your generic aliens. I thought it still made for a great movie. Superman Doomsday was also really good but a little light on plot even if it too had some great moments. I think Ultimate Avengers is just a shade better.

[RONDC20]

You know I enjoyed both quite a bit actually. People here complain about one or the other having thin story lines or whatnot, but you want to know what I think the real problem is? Movie length. Lets face it, the fact is that these films are too short, barely making the 90 minute mark.

This is one thing that's really bugged me about these films. The Japanese make 2 hour animated films all the time, so what's stopping us from doing it?

They used to use the excuse that an animated movie longer than 80 minutes is too long to keep the attention of a child, but that excuse does not hold merit when it comes to PG-13 animated films aimed at an older Comic Book fan audience.

Both Brad Bird animated films from Pixar are quite long and have began pushing the length of american made animated films. The Incredibles is 115 minutes long and Ratatouille is 111 minutes long and Cars while not directed by Brad Bird was still quite long and clocks in at an impresive 116 minutes long. Take into consideration that 120 minutes is 2 hours.

I just think their being lazy, theres no excuse for these films being so damn short. Anime does it all the time. With slightly longer films we would get meatier plots and better films, now I know this is not a sure thing, but I think It would help.