Justice League Adventures #4 Talkback (Spoilers) [Archive]

Dan Slott

02-14-2002, 04:54 AM

Supes,
Well, thanks for plunkin' down your hard-earned cash and picking up the book. Sorry it wasn't all to your liking.
Hmm... Okay, first off, you said "Maybe I'm just sick of all this Amazon magic stuff, but I didn't buy the bit about the soil in the pots deal. It just seemed stupid to me." Well... Collecting the soil and water of conquered lands in pots was a war-time tradition that dates back to the rule of Xerxes. As the story goes, at the start of the Persian War, Xerxes offered up a twist on this tradition, turning this symbol of defeat into demands for surrender. He sent two emissaries, one to Athens the other to Sparta, each armed with a GIANT pot. The two warrior-states were given an ultimatum: fill the jars with earth and water of their lands and return them to Xerxes court. This would signify their surrender and would spare them the wrath of the Persian Empire! Now THIS was a major dis-- because both Athens and Sparta were proud testosterone-pumpin', kick-ass, manly states! But you know what? They complied. They filled both giant pots up-- all the way to the top and returned them to Xerxes court... with the emissaries STUFFED INSIDE! And that pretty much threw down the gauntlet and started one of the biggest wars in the history of man. Yowch! So you wanna call the 'bit about the soil in the pots' stupid? Take it up with history, Xerxes, and the warrior states of Athens and Sparta.
Okay... Speaking of 'throwing down the gauntlet'.... Next in your post you said, and I quote, "Also, Batman's dialogue was terrible. Page 18 is the worst where he is going on about how he is a man and was able to defeat the Amazons. Wow, Batman does not talk like that. My tip to Mr. Slott would be to check out a little cartoon that aired in the 90's called Batman: The Animated Series. It should give you some tips about the kinds of things Batman would say. Most of us here are at least a little fond of it."
Hmm... My "tip" to Mr. Smart-Alec-Poster would be to check out the ending to Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back. (Just kidding!)
C'mon, man! Of course Batman would talk like that! In fact, he did. See? It's in print. Look, he's not saying he's a man to get his ya-yas off. He's purposefully goading the Queen of the Amazons, raising her ire so she will play into his hands (just as he would 'push the buttons' of any of his foes-- like he pushes the Joker's buttons at the end of 'Mad Love,' or the Riddler's buttons at the end of "Riddler's Reform," Ubu's buttons at the end of Part One of the 'Demon's Quest'... or any gosh-darn number of episodes of that "little cartoon that aired in the 90's" that I must have missed when I was... I don't know... Living in a cave?).
Didn't mean to go off like that, but I actually do LIKE getting criticism on my work-- when it's constructive and insightful. I really do! If I make a mistake, or you guys see how I can do something better the next time out, I really want to hear your opinion... Cause, gosh-darn-it, I want to put out the best comics possible. So please, let me have it! (If THAT ain't a cue for a custard pie in the face-- I don't know what is!) But, geez man, lay off the sanctimonious "My tip to Mr. Slott would be to check out a little cartoon" crap. Imagine we're just hanging out at a Carl's Jr. or something and in between onion rings and Mountain Dew you say something like-- "Dude, this scene DID NOT work, and here's why...." And I'll be all "Hmm... I see your point. What if next time I tried something like this?..."
See? It's not that hard. Now everyone play nice.

Dan

(P.S. Hey, Jim Harvey... What's with this 'Creative Team Unbeknownst To Me" stuff? Just last month you told me that my issue of Superman Adventures was one of the best in the entire run! And I KNOW you've seen Min's fabulous art before! What's up with THAT? Aw! Don't worry, Jim, I still think you're the bee's knees and the cat's pyjamas. TTYL!)

James Harvey

02-14-2002, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Dan Slott
(P.S. Hey, Jim Harvey... What's with this 'Creative Team Unbeknownst To Me" stuff? Just last month you told me that my issue of Superman Adventures was one of the best in the entire run! And I KNOW you've seen Min's fabulous art before! What's up with THAT? Aw! Don't worry, Jim, I still think you're the bee's knees and the cat's pyjamas. TTYL!)

A very, very, very bad joke. For some reason, it looked right when I was typing it out. Now, that I go back and look at it, looks...bad. I mean, who doesn't know Min S. Ku and yourself. Hell - I've Q & Aed ya for the newspage. It was just a joke gone horribly wrong.

I'm picking up this issue today so I'll be putting my thoughts up later tonight or tomorrow...

Bird Boy

02-14-2002, 11:09 AM

I officially hate my area. I just found #3 (which I didn't buy..not enough money w/ me). Yes, I know I gripe about this alot, but this is just not right....I hate being behind in the comics....:(

though from the look of the pages I may not wanna pic this ish up..hmmm

-BB

Spider

02-14-2002, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by Bird Boy
I officially hate my area. I just found #3 (which I didn't buy..not enough money w/ me). Yes, I know I gripe about this alot, but this is just not right....I hate being behind in the comics....:(

though from the look of the pages I may not wanna pic this ish up..hmmm

-BB

Bird_Boy,

You talk about being behind? I'm behind about 20 years or so. I've been hunting through a few stores in my area, but I've yet to find comics of any kind. I want to keep up on some of the stuff everyone's writing about in this Forum. :)

Trent Lane

02-15-2002, 01:07 AM

A decent issue. I loved the art, Ku got it down this time, but the story was just a little short. I agree, it was a little rushed, but I'm not here to criticize- hell, I've only written two fanfics, who am I to talk? Overall, out of ten, this one was probably a six, passing in my book...

Min S. Ku

02-15-2002, 01:19 AM

Hello Everybody...

This is my first post ever, to a public message board. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out how to use all the features to enhance my posts...

My name is Min S. Ku, and I'm currently one of the pencilers on Justice League Adventures. My very first DC cover is now on the stands (JL Adv #4) and I'd love to hear what you all thought of the story and the art, whether good or bad.

Best,

Min

Min S. Ku

02-15-2002, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by Joker85
well, quite frankly, I was dissappointed. I thought the story was rushed, stupid, and pointless and I thought the art was bad. For a WW type story, she wasn't in it all that much. The dialogue was really cheesy and the amazons looked terrible! If JL Adventures keeps going down this track, it will be going without me.

Ouch.

Min S. Ku

02-15-2002, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by Superman
Just got this ish and I have mixed feelings on it.
I really enjoyed the art, it looked great. The story on the other hand...

There were some things I liked about the issue though. The Supergirl cameo was great and the art was a major improvment over Ku's work on issue number 1.

Oh, and one more thing I didn't like was the preview pic for next issue. Starro? I hope this writer I've never heard of can come up with a way to make this story fit in with the continuity. I don't mind no name writers coming along with thier story ideas, but when you are dealing with Timm's universe I think that the easiest way to make fans hate your story is to mess with the continuity.

Thanks Superman. I personally liked my pencils on this issue better than the first issue. Looking back at the first issue now, I wish I had designed a funkier-looking alien;

How's this for continuity? the Amazons story takes place after the events of "Paradise Lost."

Best,

Min

DisneyBoy

02-15-2002, 08:18 AM

I've only seen Part One of "Paradise Lost", but I'm very happy to know that continuity is important to you, Ku, and I'm glad you are here to chat with us!

I can't say that I'm a huge fan of your work, but from the preview pages here at Toonzone, it seems to be improving. My biggest critique is that you figures tend to look a little stiff or in awkward poses, almost as if you are trying to perfectly nail the "model sheet" designs, without focusing as much on the look of the character in the story itself. As for the entire issue, when I went to pick it up at my shop yesterday night, it still wasn't in so I can't really comment on it. #1 however...well, I read it and loved the cover, but the inside was...a disappointment (sorry!). The alien definately needed a different design and once again, I found the characters to be a little stiff. From what I see now, your art has improved and maintains more of a flow/fluidity that seemed missing in #1. Hopefully by issue #12 I'll be singing your praises...

As for future issues, the one featuring a slew of DC villains has me deeply worried. Being the continuity-stickler that I am, I am worried that the designs you may give certain villains, or even the presence of certain villains, may not make sense with the continuity of the Justice League show. Did you and the writer run through the issue with Timm and co? I doubt it, and I really don't want this series to be another guessing-game like Adventures in the DC Unvierse was, when it comes to characters (for example: wasn't the Weather Wizard an african-american in his appearance on S:TAS?). Now that there's a show, let's try and follow it, while still remaining liberal enough to write interesting stories.

Before I go, will Athena look the way you drew in her in the show, or was that your personal interpretation? Thanks again.

Clayface

02-15-2002, 09:59 AM

I just around to picking up this issue last night. I've read it and want to make comments on it, but since I'm at work and don't have it in front of me, I'll wait until I get home to post any detailed comments. I can say right now though that I liked the story (though some of the dialgoue seemed a little off to me - I'll get to that in my next post). The art I didn't care for - I'll point out specific examples of what I didn't like when I post agian later.

Clayface

02-15-2002, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Spider

I've been hunting through a few stores in my area, but I've yet to find comics of any kind.

Have you tried doing a search for your local comics shops? Try this:

http://csls.diamondcomics.com/

If there's none in your area, i'd recomend http://www.westfieldcomics.com/.

Karkull

02-15-2002, 10:59 AM

To Dan Slott & Min S. Ku:

First off, thank you for coming to post on these boards with us. The thought of being able to converse with the writer and aritst this way is very cool indeed.

I really liked the issue a lot (I'll go out and buy #1-3 now as well...that's a lot). First, the story. The plot was a little rushed, but that's the price you pay when you're telling a story like this in under 25 pages. Kudos, Dan, for using all seven members of the League and for giving them decent characterization. I love the job you did on Superman--it was like watching the version from STAS in the Justice League (I could hear Daly's voice when reading him say "Boy, do I hate magic"). And Batman was awesome--he really would use that "a man" line to goad his enemies (I thought it was in character). And, no offense to Bruce Timm, but I thought that the ending was more believeable than the end of Paradise Lost--they were uncomfortable, yet grateful, for the League's help...and no one was banished from the island, :) .

In addition, the art was simple and sweet--it captured the flavor of the art deco style. Finally Superman's jawline doesn't make him look like he's pushing fifty! The "cameo" by Supergirl was awesome, as was seeing J'onn fighting in his Martian form. I can't wait for issue #6--the supervillain issue.

(I noticed that, on the cover, the Riddler seemed to be wearing his BTAS costume...is he? If he is you have my eternal thanks!)

It's too bad that you two aren't the full-time creative team--you do great work!

Dan Slott

02-15-2002, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by Trent Lane
A decent issue. I loved the art, Ku got it down this time, but the story was just a little short. I agree, it was a little rushed, but I'm not here to criticize- hell, I've only written two fanfics, who am I to talk? Overall, out of ten, this one was probably a six, passing in my book...

Trent,
Please criticize! Everybody has every right to criticize. I TOTALLY want to hear where you think I went wrong... that way I won't do it again. You read something, you think it can be better, I want to know. Really!
The whole 'story was just a little short' point is something I've been picking up on this board and other reviews around the web. It's totally valid. I guess my problem was I was trying to give everybody in the League a moment to shine AND keep the panel count down.
In the past, I got some criticism for making my last adventures comic (SUPERMAN ADVENTURES #57) a little text heavy. And I felt that the next adventures story I wrote (a BATMAN: GOTHAM ADVENTURES inventory-- which hasn't been slated yet) was a little panel heavy. So maybe I went a little overboard (or rather underboard) with panel counts and balloon placement on this script. You'll notice that there's only 4 six panel pages in this story-- everything else was whittled down to four and five panels a page. This was a a deliberate effort to have a story with bigger visuals (Allowing a larger canvas for Min Ku's gorgeous art! AND big "hero shots" and "money shots" for a book that's also aimed at younger readers).
If I had more space, I probably would have spent more time on the scene where Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, and the Flash are fighting the Amazon Army. They'd probably have to deal with the problems of fighting an army of NOT ONLY Amazons, but mind-controlled normal women as well. I also would have spent more time on the Hippolyta/Superman fight-- letting you see just how much RAW POWER is exchanging between these two titans. AND I also would have liked to play with Hippolyta's inner-frustration of having her daughter hanging out with this modern-day version of Hercules-- a man's world hero that is the antithesis of everything she believes in. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, if I had to do this story again I would address the concept of opressed women in the world getting the chance to take up arms and fight their male opressors... and just what DOES happen after the jars are all smashed and everything returns to "normal"... or does it?
The problem there was that I wrote this story months and months before the tragic events of Septemper 11th. In the aftermath of the tragedy, we looked for answers and in doing so examined the cultures of the Middle East. We all became more aware of the Taliban AND their treatment of women. In that light-- I don't know if I could have written this story... or if I WOULD have written it differently.
On a more trivial note (a WAY more trivial note), this story was also written months and months before the first episode of Justice League had aired on cartoon network. In fact, this issue was the first Justice League Adventures script in the drawer at DC-- and, for a while, had a good shot at being Justice League Adventures #1. (So all of you people who think that Min's art 'progressed' from Issue #1... PSYCHE! He actually did this one FIRST! But trust me-- you ain't seen NOTHING yet! Just wait till you see his double page splash for Issue #6! Or his shot of a certain DCU villain stomping through downtown Tokyo in Issue #10! Man, that's gorgeous!). Anyway... The only Justice League reference I had to work with was the full script to the three part "Secret Origins", the series bible, and the OUTLINE for Paradise Lost parts 1 & 2. So, yes, I did know that Diana was going to be exiled... but since I did not know the specific dialogue, I tried to keep reference to it vague. So for all of you continuity hounds, the answer to the question everyone keeps asking is-- Yes, this story takes place AFTER Paradise Lost.
So in a nutshell... I'm reading ALL your posts-- and placing great stock in your opinions and concerns! Your enjoyment is the REASON we put out comics so PLEASE let us know what we're doing right-- and more importantly-- what we're not! Thanks to all of you guys who take the time to write out all of your well-thought-out and constructive criticism! It really means a lot! I know I speak for both me and Min when I say it really fires us up and gets us focused for putting out the best comics we can!
Dan

Min S. Ku

02-15-2002, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by DisneyBoy
I've only seen Part One of "Paradise Lost", but I'm very happy to know that continuity is important to you, Ku, and I'm glad you are here to chat with us!

I can't say that I'm a huge fan of your work, but from the preview pages here at Toonzone, it seems to be improving. My biggest critique is that you figures tend to look a little stiff or in awkward poses, almost as if you are trying to perfectly nail the "model sheet" designs, without focusing as much on the look of the character in the story itself. As for the entire issue, when I went to pick it up at my shop yesterday night, it still wasn't in so I can't really comment on it. #1 however...well, I read it and loved the cover, but the inside was...a disappointment (sorry!). The alien definately needed a different design and once again, I found the characters to be a little stiff. From what I see now, your art has improved and maintains more of a flow/fluidity that seemed missing in #1. Hopefully by issue #12 I'll be singing your praises...

Thanks for the honesty Disneyboy. I really do appreciate negative feedback as long as the poster cites specific reasons on what didn't work for them. I actually found your posts "helpful" and have been keeping a conscious effort to make my figures look less stiff. Unfortunately you may not see a visual improvement until months down the line since we work on these books w-a-a-a-y in advance! (the amazon story was actually drawn back in May of 2000!).

I know one complaint in the past has been that I stick too close to the model sheets... It's a conscious effort on my part. Personally if I was a kid, I would want the Adventure comics to look as closely as to what I see on TV, since that's what they're based on. Growing up with GIJOE in the 80's, I never liked the fact that the GIJOE comic books never LOOKED like GIJOE the cartoon series. (Except issue #24... Russ Heath filled in and boy did his art look like it was transferred from a TV episode! Just recently I found out that the reason why it looked so good was because he designed a lot of the early GIJOE model sheets for the tv show!) That's always been a high priority for me... I want to match the art from TV to the printed page as close as I can. (Although, having couple of JL Adv issues under my belt, I do find myself drawing Superman's face slightly different from the model sheet... it's almost like a blend of the original series look (STAS) with the current JL look. )

[i]
As for future issues, the one featuring a slew of DC villains has me deeply worried. Being the continuity-stickler that I am, I am worried that the designs you may give certain villains, or even the presence of certain villains, may not make sense with the continuity of the Justice League show. Did you and the writer run through the issue with Timm and co? I doubt it, and I really don't want this series to be another guessing-game like Adventures in the DC Unvierse was, when it comes to characters (for example: wasn't the Weather Wizard an african-american in his appearance on S:TAS?). Now that there's a show, let's try and follow it, while still remaining liberal enough to write interesting stories. [/B]

WB animation sends all of their model sheets, storyboards and scripts over to DC on a regular basis. Being that we were working months in advance before the cartoon aired, we had to work with what was given to the creators. When we did the Supervillain issue, there wasn't any villain models yet, so I did my best in creating the classic DC villains in the animated style. The biggest challenge was designing the Royal Flush Gang -- the Batman Beyond's version was as cool as heck, but since they'll be looking like that in the future, I tried to apply the simplistic look to the designs set forth in the comics of today. Let me know if I succeeded or not.

I'm really looking forward to #6... it was the most fun I ever had in comics, period! I only wished Dan (Slott) had included 100 villains instead of the measly 41! This story would look so good animated!

The Weather Wizard was African-American on the TV show? Are you sure about that? You are referring to the "Speed Demons" episode of STAS right? I used the TV version of the WW in the pages of #6. Jim Harvey posted images of some of the villains we're using in the issue awhile back in the news section. WW's included in there.

A last point on continuity... the animated universe has so much potential... we get to take the best from DCU and streamline it into the animated world. I know Dan (Slott) especially keeps a conscious effort to add to the continuity set forth on the animated series (he's a huge fan of the show -- he has EVERY episode on tape from 1992!), and he'd never take anything away from what's been established on tv.

[i]
Before I go, will Athena look the way you drew in her in the show, or was that your personal interpretation? Thanks again. [/B]

I don't know if Athena will be making an appearance on the show (you might want to ask Dan Slott about this, since he read a few of the tv scripts). So it was my personal interpretation (as was Ares).

Min

Min S. Ku

02-15-2002, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Karkull
To Dan Slott & Min S. Ku:
(I noticed that, on the cover, the Riddler seemed to be wearing his BTAS costume...is he? If he is you have my eternal thanks!)

It's too bad that you two aren't the full-time creative team--you do great work!

You bet! All of Batman and Superman's villains will look like their tv counterparts.

Thanks Karkull!

Min

Min S. Ku

02-15-2002, 11:56 AM

Hey Dan! Good to see you on the boards!

Originally posted by Dan Slott

You'll notice that there's only 4 six panel pages in this story-- everything else was whittled down to four and five panels a page. This was a a deliberate effort to have a story with bigger visuals (Allowing a larger canvas for Min Ku's gorgeous art! AND big "hero shots" and "money shots" for a book that's also aimed at younger readers).

As the penciler, I had no complaints about drawing this story... if you look over the pages, EVERY PAGE but one (page 3) featured a Justice Leaguer... Personally I'd rather draw the super-heroes than the supporting characters. It's the Spider-man/Aunt May analogy... Dan and I talked about how we'd be reading and absorbing the Spider-man scenes from the early Lee/Ditko/Romita comics, but quickly scan over the Aunt May scenes... Well, this story featured NO AUNT MAY scenes! I enjoyed it very much!
[/B][/QUOTE]

DisneyBoy

02-15-2002, 12:38 PM

Oh dear! This thread is going spoilers galore! :rolleyes:

As I said, I haven't yet seen the last part of Paradise Lost or read the issue...so all the little surprises everyone keeps mentionning...like Ares and the whole exile bit....I REALLY DON'T WANT TO KNOW!!!

(Sigh) That's the price you pay I guess when you talk about something everyone else knows more about...

In any case, I'm not really surprised about hearing that you work months in advance, Min S. Ku, but it felt like you approached issues #1 and #4 differently. Please remember, I haven't yet seen anything else of the issue besides the four preview pages posted here, but it felt like you were trying to make the panels "flow" more than in #1. Did you have less time to work on (what became) the first issue? As for the model sheets, I totally agree that whichever artist is working on this series should try and follow the Timm designs to the T (no...I didn't mean for that to sound so funny!). After all, if the series follows the show, they should look the same (unlike the many disappointing issues of He-Man and The Masters Of The Universe that came with the figures and those that were published by Marvel), but you seem to have a harder time drawing in the animated style.

Now, I realize that the late Mike Pareobek (didn't mean to misspell that!) didn't exactly make his interpretation of Batman in The Batman Adventures look exactly like he did in animation, but his approach/style/whatever worked in the series. Similarily, I adore Ty Templeton's art because it resembles Timms, but is almost better. The two are different, but the style and look maintain the same feeling. Unfortunately, I (please don't kill me here...I'm going to be completely honest) am disappointed that you are going to be doing the art on so many other issues of JLAdventures because as much as you try...your work doesn't feel like the series. It just doesn't gel. Don't get me wrong, I think I'll enjoy your next few issues, visually speaking, but of late, all the artists that really had a knack for the animated style have moved on and I don't feel like Levins, Rousseau or you compare. This doesn't mean that I'll be biased towards them and never buy this series if you continue to work on it - it just means that I don't have high hopes.

That leads me to the issue of creative-continuity-liberties. Now TBA took a different route for the origin of Batgirl in issue #12, but the series almost completely followed the continuity of the show. That said, one would think that it was hindered by never being able to, say, change a costume design or kill off a character, yet somehow it was valued as one of the best comics out there.

I am happy that Justice League Adventures is going to try and stretch it's wings a little and explore areas that the show hasn't yet...but as far as bringing in 41 villains...I cringe . I loved Adventures in the DC Universe, but it was meant to be an "attempt" at the animated style of art and continuity (not to downplay Delaney's work cause I loved it). Did it completely make sense all the time with the B: TAS and S: TAS universes? No, but back then it was all we, as fans wanting to see GL or Superboy, had. Now there is a real show, with it's own developping continuity and character designs, in which these characters can be best featured, I don't think we really want anyone else starting up multiple interpretation/versions of them. I'm not saying you guys should write stories about the Flash's breakfast or Hawkgirl's favorite song just to play it safe, but I really wish that the creative team (whoever it is - are you and Dan Slott permanent?) wouldn't jump the gun and introduce characters that only existed in the TNBA universe. Timm and company haven't done it yet, and since they don't really care about checking to see that they follow events in this comic, character interpretations that are in these pages before they are integrated into the television show will probably make no sense with their animated counterparts. Adv. in the DCU was meant for "personal interpretations" - this comic should be about the show .

I hope you don't think me rude or jaded for saying these things, but what's the point of following a comic series that doesn't make sense with the comic it's based on? I know that this series will largely make complete sense with what happens on JL, but drastic storylines like issue #6, or (not to give you ideas) a guest-spot by Lois Lane, could easily be the crack that breaks the window. You, Ku, said you loved that one GI Joe issue that finally got things the way they were on tv, because all of the other ones didn't resemble the show. Unless this comic is cautious, it will quickly become exactly what you didn't like as a boy. That is what this book will become if the creative team(s?) start bringing in every character under the sun and interpreting them as they please. Cold as it sounds, this isn't the book to experiment with. If Mr. Slott wants to feature Riddler and Bane in JLAdventures, please go and do it instead at Gotham Adventures! Lord knows Levins and Peterson need some competition.

I'm sorry, because I'm sure I would be offended if I was the one reading this after putting a lot of sweat and blood into a couple of issues. But, we've waited for Justice League for a long time. Please keep the comic in check with the show and wait for the animators, writers and directors to handle the massively complecated issue of inter-show continuity before you try and goof. I just want this book to be the best it can be, and if you guys do too, don't keep jumping the gun. This isn't supposed to be a playground for vastly different ideas, and I fear it will become just that when writers "drop by and write a story" (assuming of course that the rotating creative team will become a permanent fixture). As I said, I don't know who the permanent team is or if one existed. This series could easily become a free-for-all, just as Superman Adventures was in the last few months of it's run, and I don't want that - none of us do.

All I ask is that you remain as creative as the current boundaries of the show allow. If one day, the team at WB sends you specks for an uncoming Black Canary episode and you want to feature her, great ...but please don't go doing your own thing. I think you could still tell tales of the League without further confusing continuity issues. Try to deal with the subjects that the show doesn't have the chance to. I like the idea for the Amazon story, although having them leave the island and attack "man's world" would make them known and feared by the world. I hope further issues address or at the very least remember that. Why not create a little developping attraction between say WW and Supes or Flash and Hawkgirl? While these things may seem to go against the continuity of the show, you could still place the characters in a romantic situation without actually having them kiss or admit feelings - which would probably conflict with the show's continuity. Take the two Batgirl and Robin issues of TBA for example - they flirted and interacted, but never got together. Plant the seeds of what's to come if you find out things from WB that we don't know yet. For once I'd just like to see a comic and show in almost complete unison. I haven't seen that since TBA and TB+RA. Another example is Wonder Woman's lasso - the people at WB say it doesn't reveal the truth, but yours does. I personally prefer the original power of the lasso, but if JLA becomes about personal preferences, than it doesn't reflect the structure of the show.

Now that Gotham Adventures is "free" of the restrictive chains of an animated series, you'd think that the stories would be a little more provacative and perhaps take things a step further. Templeton's tales did just that - revealing to Riddler that he could be insane - having Harley make a serious attempt at going straight - but now we've been treated to 40-some-odd mind-numbingly jouvenile stories thanks to Mr. Peterson, and if nothing changes soon, it'll hit the can, so to speak. Superman Adventures had a great chance to address the issues of "Legacy", but they instead preferred to tell stories about magical this-and-that and it lead to their downfall...

I've rambled on for long enough. I just hope that the talents currently working on Justice League Adventures, that being Ku., Delaney and Slott, really take to heart what I've said rather than take offence. I appreciate having the animated world more than you'll ever know. I wouldn't be reading comics today if not for a decade of amazing stories, artwork and heart, and this is why I want to see all the animated-style books live up to their full potential and surpass this "cartoony-watered-down-kiddie-version" stereotype they have unfortunately been saddled with. It's all in your hands, and it is possibly the hardest job in the comics industry today...but it is an honor, as well. Live up to it.

Dan Slott

02-15-2002, 01:57 PM

DisneyBoy,
You, sir, put a lot of time and effort into that post-- and it was greatly appreciated! I understand how frustrating it can be to follow a show AND a comic based on that show. You really DO want the continuities to mesh-- as do we. But, as it has been stated before, there are all kinds of bizarre constraints, scheduling problems, and priorities put on both animation and comics. There's only so much information we can receive-- wether story scripts and outlines AND style guides. Sometimes things are in flux-- sometimes they're not.
For example-- I get this vibe from the story bible that BIG PLANS are in the works for Hawk Girl (and Thanagar). Because of that, I've kinda steered clear of her character and her background in my issues-- because I don't, as you put it, "want to jump the gun." That would bug me to bits if I ended up getting her continuity all wrong-- so I play her JUST as she has appeared in the story scripts and aired shows. Conversely, my pal Ty Templeton sees her as the most interesting character in the group BECAUSE her back story isn't written in stone yet. That's why he made her the hub of his first issue.
Conversely, if there ISN'T ANYTHING about a character in the series bible-- and no plans to use him/her in the series to date... Well, then I'm going to jump in and get my grubby writer's mitts all over them. Think of all the cool Blockbuster, Dr. Phospherous, Gentleman Ghost, and Lady Shiva stories you could do in the B:GA book! Just because they weren't used on the show means they'd be fair game-- you could reinterpret them however you'd like and have a fun ol' time. (Same goes for the Prankster, Terra Man, and the Kryptonite Man over in the SA continuity). So am I going to hamstring myself by NOT using 41 villains (a good chunk of whom we haven't seen yet)? No way! Bring on Professor Zoom: The Reverse Flash! Roll out the Brotherhood of Evil! Make way for the modern day Royal Flush Gang! Why? 'Cause we're all having fun! Woo hoo! (And I hope you will too!)
Remember, in the end we all reconcile with continuity in our OWN minds. You in yours. Me in mine. John Byrne in his. And so on. And I think that's for the best. Well, that's my opinion. And... well... hopefully it's just as valid as anybody else's.
TTYL!
Dan

DisneyBoy

02-15-2002, 01:59 PM

Sorry, I wanted to understand one more thing: Count Virtigo was also shown on the newspage as appearing in JLA #6. Vertigo was in the Batman: The Animated Series episode called "Off Balance"...and his design was drastically different than the one seen on the newspage. Why did you redesign him? Oh, and upon checking the World's Finest summary of Speed Demons, I realize that I could have been mistaken that he was an african-american. The only photo there is one in which his face is lit up, and since I never saw the episode, I accidentally thought he was black. Sorry, for that...but what's with Count Vertigo?

Issues with 41 villains seem a little crowded for me. I'm not too confident that an intelligent plot can emerge from a story basically constructed to showcase as many characters as possible. There really isn't any way that this story can do all of those baddies justice, since many of them probably won't even have significant, character-revealing dialogue. This was the same problem with the pilot for Justice League. While it came off pretty good, the tale still invovled seven main characters, five of which hadn't been given origins and were therefore new. That's one of the biggest problems I've heard the writers mention: finding each member of the League something to do! I suggest that those working on the comic, which only has 22 pages, try to break up the group into smaller portions for stories. If you really wanted to draw all these villains, why not make a poster? This issue, which I am, admittably (is that a word?), judging before I've read it, seems like one big stunt. Quality not Quantity.

Dan Slott

02-15-2002, 02:07 PM

Yes, Count Vertigo DID appear in the BTAS episode "Off Balance". Since then, Batman has gone through two costume changes, and Count V has, as of Issue #6, only gone through one. If you ask me, he needs to catch up!
And, hey, maybe you can have quality AND quantity? Trust me, the villain issue is a hoot and a half! We all had a blast working on it-- and hopefully you'll have one reading it! (Hey, if I knew how many figures Min could fit on a page-- why just LOOK at the cover to JL Adventures #4!-- I would a' put in 100 villains!)

DisneyBoy

02-15-2002, 02:45 PM

Dan Slott, thanks for the kind reply! I was just in the process of writing another post as to why I don't think it's wise or purposeful to include so many villains in #6, which I'm sure you'll read and respond to as well, so I won't repeat myself here. Instead, I'll opt to remind you that I don't think there's anything wrong with having fun with a comic book - that's what they're for. However, I really don't think you'll be helping create a continuity with the show by free-styling on so many characters. I am very glad that you respected Hawkgirl and understood what I meant in my last post. All in all, I'd like to see Zatanna and Circe appear in JL continuity...but my point is that not everyone can.

Take B: TAS for example. They had hundreds of villains to work with and re-interpret, but not everyone made the cut. In order to make the show the best, or ultimate version of the Batman mythos, only the best characters, stories, dialogue and animation made the cut. They could have easily made a dozen team-up episodes crammed with characters, whether or not they were needed, but, as Dini or Timm once put it "If there is a reason for the team up...fine, but otherwise it is a stunt" (taken from an old issue of Starlog I bought one summer). I am so protective of the animated legend because it succeeded because is the best version of these characters. If people start bringing in characters just to make a party of it, the quality goes down and the project often becomes a farce. Let's take Super Friends as an example. The writers kept the series upbeat and fun (from what I hear- I've never watched it), and so many people here find it unbarably campy because it prioritized fun. B:TAS was very careful with what they brought to the screen, and TBA was as well. Sure, Huntress and Anarky made appearances, but the issues that featured them aimed to do the characters justice. Invovling 41 villains purely to get a group shot out of it sounds like a stunt. If the story is about the JL being auctioned off to villains, it sounds rather campy and cliche to me...which worries me. The Adventures titles have a hard enough time making a profit without them being reduced to a melange of characters, settings and snappy patter with no substance to the plot. The creative team behind B:TAS didn't include every villain because so many of the Batman villains aren't needed in the series. Similarily, why include Captian Cold when there is Mr. Freeze? And who the heck is Queen Bee? Once we have read the issue, I really don't think it will have mattered much if she was there at all.

I completely respect your desire to include a variety of characters in Justice League Adventures, and also to go where the show hasn't before, but I really don't think this is the place. If it ends up being a fantastic story, I assure you you will recieve an apology from me, but I don't think I will be pleasantly surprised. If you want to write about the Royal Flush gang without having to worry about continuity then write a fanfic, like we do, and post it, or just write it for your own pleasure, but don't try to push the series where it isn't yet ready to go. If I was writing the JLA, I certainly wouldn't let myself have the team meet He-Man and She-Ra, two icons from my youth, even for the fun of it. True, the villains you have included are at least from the same Dc Universe, but that doesn't mean they all merit a spot in the animated world. Let's keep it an exclusive club, okay? It's better that way. Otherwise, all the animated shows and comics will become be are the DC Universe with different artwork. This isn't the DC Universe and thank god for it! No "Crisis on Infinate Earths", no "Azrael" and no "Death of Superman"! Please, no more experimenting!

I just read your comment about Count Vertigo. Sounds like Ku made an oversight rather than an intended costume change. He looks more like Paralax than the Count.

Spider-Man

02-15-2002, 03:19 PM

Invovling 41 villains purely to get a group shot out of it sounds like a stunt. If the story is about the JL being auctioned off to villains, it sounds rather campy and cliche to me...which worries me. The Adventures titles have a hard enough time making a profit without them being reduced to a melange of characters, settings and snappy patter with no substance to the plot.

Disneyboy, first off...calm down. Take a breathe and realize what you're saying. You're taking a very pessimistic view of things, playing them out for their worst possible outcome. Why not wait until something hits before you judge it. I find you above comment to be very unjustified. Why? I have read plenty of stories where there has been a lot of villians, and the story turns out to be a masterful read. Look at the beautiful Kingdom Come. That series featured close to 500 characters. Did that burden the series? No. Did it make it less entertaining? No. Was it a stunt? No. Yes it good? Yes! Were some there for group shots? Yes. Did it matter? No. Not one bit.

You know, it's funny how you mention the "auction" to be a campy idea. If I recall, the episode The Strange Secret of Bruce Wayne revolved around Hugo Stange auctioning off Batman's ID. And it was pulled off successfully. Not only that, but it featured multiple villians. Granted, there wasn't 41 villians, but there was more than one. Did that bring down the episode? Make it worse? No! It made it an enjoyable romp. I think this issue will follow suit. I for one enjoy Ku's art. I like how he stays on model for the reasons he mentioned above. I hate seeing comics based on shows that stray so far from the show sheets.

This will not "reduce" the title to a gimmick. This will not be the downfall of the animated comics. Bad creatives are - and this issue has a stellar creative team. This is a story. If this story was a gimmick, DC would be plugging it with special events and the like. But they are not. This is being treated as a story. Plain and simple. The animated titles do have a hard time being taken seirously, mainly becuase of the ignoance of many comic book readers who think an "Adventures" title is for kids. Well, their loss.

Yes, the story premise does sound a bit cliched, but so did The Strange Secret of Bruce Wayne. Give it a chance, Disneyboy. You may like it.

The creative team behind B:TAS didn't include every villain because so many of the Batman villains aren't needed in the series. Similarily, why include Captian Cold when there is Mr. Freeze? And who the heck is Queen Bee? Once we have read the issue, I really don't think it will have mattered much if she was there at all.

Well, actually, there are over 100 JLA villians. Including 41 isn't going to be all of them. And Captain Cold (who pre-dated Mr. Freeze I believe) is a Flash villian. If you pick up any current Flash issue, you'll see how amazing that character is, epsecially in the hands of Geoff Jones. Don't knock a character unless you've done your research. And Queen Bee is an old school JLA villian who recently got a revamp.

If you want to write about the Royal Flush gang without having to worry about continuity then write a fanfic, like we do, and post it, or just write it for your own pleasure, but don't try to push the series where it isn't yet ready to go.

This is where i think you are completely out of line. He is a writer who works on the comics. Let him write an interesting story. I know this is gonna sound bad..obut you are one fan out of a million. There are alot of other fans who may be looking forward to this. I can't wait to see the RFG. Bruce Timm said in one of Jim's interviews that they may pop up in season 2. That rocks! But that gives you no right to tell them who or who they can't right about. If you do that, why not give Peterson a call and tell him not to do anymore Catwoman stories. I think you're completely out of line here becuase you're basically telling him what to do, not only is it rude but disrespectful.

Let's keep it an exclusive club, okay? It's better that way.

Again, only your opinion. I would like to see more villians done in the animated style. Bring them all on. I want to see more! Experiment! I want to see Aztek animated! I want to see "Tower of Babel" animated! And why not? The animated DCUniverse gives us the possiblities to explore so much. To restrict it is almost a crime. Think before you make these demands. Just becuase you don't want to see them, doesn't mean anyone else wants to see them. If we didn't experiment we wouldn't have Harley Quinn. Or Mercy Graves.

I hope you weren't offended by this, Mr. Slott. I hope nobody was offended by this. That was not my intention - just chucking in my thoughts.

Jim Harvey: Fixed some of your typos, Spider-Man!

Karkull

02-15-2002, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by Min S. Ku
You bet! All of Batman and Superman's villains will look like their tv counterparts.

No, I meant that, on the cover, it looked like he was wearing his original costume--the green sports jacket, black shirt, and grey pants ensemble from BTAS--as opposed to the green leotard from TNBA. I was thanking you because I feel that the skin-tight green jumpsuit makes him look stupid.

James Harvey

02-15-2002, 04:18 PM

I think it's still his TNBA design. I think it was in B:GA #12 (whatever number that Riddler issue was) that he actually wore his suit over his spandex costume. From the looks of <a href="http://www.toonzone.net/comics/solicitations/2002-04/dcuniverse/jladvs06.jpg">issue #6</a>, it looks like it'll be just that. I can't wait to see what characters we'll be seeing in this issue.

Also, I can say right now I enjoyed JLAdv #4, but I'll chuckin a more detailed review eventually. The story was good, though not great, and the art was good as well. Its funny how the artists on the comics can get the Superman design right, yet the animated version still makes him look a bit...off...

Karkull

02-15-2002, 04:35 PM

Nope, I'll have to disagree. He still looks like his head is shaved, but that's obviously a dress shirt he's wearing (with buttoned sleeves). It's just all green in this picture.

DisneyBoy

02-15-2002, 04:50 PM

Thanks for addiding to the conversation, S-P.

My last few posts may have seemed negative or rude, but I did my absolute best not to disrespect anyone with my opinions. That wouldn't be fair and would turn this entire thread into a fiasco, which is not my intent. I am completely calm and I do realize what I am saying. I specifically said that I would still buy the issue and comment on it once I had done so, so don't worry about me pre-judging it.

Actually, I am talking about what I know, and since I haven't read the issue, I obviously can't comment on it being good or bad. I made certain to say "If this happens..." because I wouldn't want to sound like a know-it-all. Basically, I am doing everything possible to make this discussion worth everyone's time - please remember that I'm not out to get anybody.

I agree that a story arc can feature a multitude of characters and still be a masterpiece, I just fear that this won't be the case with #6. As I was typing one of my earlier posts, I recalled "The Strange Secret of Bruce Wayne" episode, and the villain-auction at the end. I can't say that it was the best episode of the series, but the auction idea sorta worked. Here (as far as I know) we'll have 41 villains all together hoping to purchase and kill the League. Can you really imagine them all being together in one room? Riddler and Joker hate one another, the two Cold baddies would probably get in an argument and I seriously doubt anything would get accomplished. I'm not saying that Mr. Slott is a bad writer - what I'm saying is that a story like this will be very hard to pull off. From what I've understood, it sounds like it will be a more whimsical story...like "Injustice for All", which is probably the only way it could work because if it was a serious story, those villains wouldn't all be together in the first place. Kinda like "Disney's House of Mouse". I love that show, but it can't be taken too seriously with Snow White and Pumba sharing lunch :p ! Whatever the case - a serious story or a funny one - I'll give it a fair chance.

I used the word "reduce" because I don't think the series really needs anymore "whimsical" stories. The subtitle " Adventures" is synonymous with cutsey, "kid-tested mother approved" based-on-a-cartoon-show-so-it-can't-be-taken-as-seriously-as-mainstream-DC-books stereotypes. A few years ago, I would have argued with anyone who called the stories childish or watered-down, but with Peterson's run on Gotham Adventures I'm beginning to lose hope. The first two issues of JLA weren't fantastic and I think it may be wiser for the series to attempt to appeal more to adults and children...like TBA did. Of course, a balance like that is hard to achieve, but too many whimsical stories could hurt the series by alientating the older audience. Gotham Adventures is doing that already. I don't want to see it happen to JLA before the first year is up.

I am looking forward to that issue. I want to see this series soar! Just because I question the track a story could take the series towards doesn't make me rude or out-of-line. I'm allowed to question the writer's ideas just as much as you, Spider-Man, are allowed to question mine. The only thing that must be maintained is respect and I feel I've done that.

One of the things that keeps the animated series popular is a relatively understandable continuity. Featuring the Royal Flush Gang when they are known more for Batman Beyond, and offering no explanation as to how they formed/existed in JL time could be problamatic. I'm not saying Mr. Slott has or will do that. I'm not saying that would be wrong. I'd enjoy hearing a good story about how Starro could have been invovled with the Justice League prior to the event of "The Call". Heck, I may even adore it, regardless of established continuity! But, in challenging continuity too fiercy, it could quickly become a mess of different people's ideas and soon there could be no "animated version" any more. Do you want this series to change depending on who writes which issue? What if someone else writes a story in which Wonder Woman has a third eye? I think we'd all say that it doesn't make sense with the show. I'm not saying that Dan's done something like that...Instead, I'm hoping that issue #6 won't have that effect because it will only hurt the series. It is possible that a writer can do something that won't make sense, S-P (not to say Dan has - I wouldn't know!) They are people just like everyone else and can have poor story ideas. I'm saying what I'm saying in the hopes that Dan Slott can use my feedback to avoid writing a bad issue and instead improve the quality of the book. It's just my opinion, and my suggestions are drawn from my experience. #25 of TB+RA was a horrid story about how Ra'a Al Ghul tries to use a UFO to conquer earth, and a JL-auction does have the same campy ring to it. I'm not saying it is campy , only that it could be.

Stories like Tower of Babel could be brought into animated continuity, but I'd like to think they'd only be brought in if they were worthy. Just because it worked in the DCU doesn't mean it has to be in JLA. Experimentation is good in moderation. As it is, we have a rotating creative team and some background info on the main characters - Let's not let the liberty go to our heads (again, not to say you have Mr. Slott!) Oh, and Harley and Mercy were introduced after careful consideration and experimentation done off screen! I am sure that Ku took the redesigns seriously, but that won't ensure that we'll all like them. Harley and Mercy were carefully introduced and could easily have been flops - the same easily applies to the many villains we'll see in #6...except I worry that not all of them will be carefully introduced to us. Think about it...22 pages...7 Leaguers...41 baddies...I really don't think I'll get to know or appreciate most of them...do you?

Take Templeton's "Krypto" issue of Superman Adventures. Why not make the cute little pooch a part of continuity? It didn't make sense completely. He didn't fit in. If a woman dressed in a bee outfit with giant wings fits into JL...I think I'm allowed to be worried that the series may become campy :rolleyes: . If she is well developed, fine...if not....she shouldn't be there. That makes sense, doesn't it?

Oh, and I take issue with the use of the word "demand" . I've demanded nothing. These are my two cents, and obviously I'm not the one with the job writing the series so I can only speak from the point of view of a fan. I sincerely hope your work in #6 rises high above my fears Dan..and rises to the occasion...but until I have that book in my hands, read and finished, I'll be here worrying...

Oh, it's so hard to be a fan!

DisneyBoy

02-15-2002, 04:53 PM

Oh Karkull, about Riddler...I've got some bad news. He's not wearing the B:TAS suit. In fact, the green sleeve isn't his hand - it's Metallo's, miscolored by whoever colored the cover. It's too big to be in proportion in Riddler's head. It's closer to the viewer, yet behind Bane, making it Metallo's!

Brian Cruz

02-15-2002, 04:53 PM

Too bad you guys have to wait till Tuesday to see what JL Advs #7 will be about. Just reading the description made me cringe.

Joker85

02-15-2002, 05:06 PM

Well, I think that this issue could have been better if the writer hadn't used all 7 members of the League. Take notes from the show, and only use a few. Like I said earlier, this appeared to be a Wonder Woman focused issue, but she wasn't in it as much as I would have liked. But thats just my personal opinion. As for the art, I'm not real sure why I didn't like it. It just, again in my opinion, didn't look good. the amazon's lacked detail,to me. I plan to keep getting this title, I understand that it takes any comic awhile to get on it's own 2 feet and find it's style. I'm curious, is there going to be rotating creative teams indefinitely, or will there be a more permanent one soon?? I'm glad that the artist and writer of this issue are coming to the board. that shows how down to earth you are and that you appreciate the fans opinions. Thanks for listening to mine! :)

James Harvey

02-15-2002, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by Joker85
I'm curious, is there going to be rotating creative teams indefinitely, or will there be a more permanent one soon?? I'm glad that the artist and writer of this issue are coming to the board. that shows how down to earth you are and that you appreciate the fans opinions. Thanks for listening to mine! :)

For at least the first 12 issues, the creative teams will be rotating. There's a chance after DC prints the initial year or so worth of issues that there will be a creative team, but it's slim that a permenant team will be chosen. All we can do it hope. I'm not abig fan of the rotating creative teams, myself. I'd like to see one, maybe two, permenant teams on the title.

DisneyBoy

02-15-2002, 05:34 PM

"Too bad you guys have to wait till Tuesday to see what JL Advs #7 will be about. Just reading the description made me cringe."

Great. Fan-frickin-tastic!

John Delaney

02-15-2002, 05:37 PM

I just finished reading JLAdvs. #4 and I gotta say I really liked it!!Min, page 5 panel 2 was beautifully drawn and designed. All your women look great but I especially liked page 9, panel 1. Dan, I thought Batman's chemically treated batarangs in conjunction with his knowledge of amazonian weakness' was absolutely brilliant! Very Batman. I have got to say the unsung hero of this issue and last issue is colorist John Kalisz. His use of palette is giving this book a real top quality look and his understanding of light and shadow placement is exceptional.
Kudos all around guys!
John

DisneyBoy

02-15-2002, 06:34 PM

LOL Thanks for getting this thread back on topic John!

Karkull

02-15-2002, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by DisneyBoy
Oh Karkull, about Riddler...I've got some bad news. He's not wearing the B:TAS suit. In fact, the green sleeve isn't his hand - it's Metallo's, miscolored by whoever colored the cover. It's too big to be in proportion in Riddler's head. It's closer to the viewer, yet behind Bane, making it Metallo's!

Crap. I can see the part of Metallo's arm lifting, but the continuation is the green. Oh well.

:rolleyes:

DisneyBoy

02-15-2002, 07:14 PM

I know it's green...I just don't know why! I would be very surprised to see anything done in B:TAS style anymore. Ever since Timm declared that TNBA was they way things were meant to look, nothing, not even the flashback in Mad Love was rendered in the original B:TAS style. Sad really, since some characters looked much better in it. Including Riddler...and Batman!

Dan Slott

02-15-2002, 07:14 PM

DisneyBoy, John D., Spider-M, Jim, Joker85, and everybody else...
Thanks for taking the time to write up all your thoughts and concerns! It's fun (and instructive) to hear everybody's opinions!
Joker85-- It was a deliberate choice to stick Wonder Woman in the gem and take her "out of the story" for a while. This story had a good shot at being Issue #1 and I didn't want it to be a 'Wonder Woman and her Amazing Friends' episode. Everybody needed a moment to shine. Also, this was my first (and possibly only) Justice League story. And I'd be damned if I wasn't going to play with all the bits and pieces! And, boy was it FUN!
DisneyBoy is right. That IS Metallo's shirt miscolored green. The Riddler is in his current BTAS unitard and shaved head. Min and I are trying very hard to keep everything and everyone up to date and in the correct costumes-- except for Count Vertigo. Yes, both Min and I have seen the BTAS episode "Off Balance," and decided to go with an "Adventures" style of his DCU costume. Why? Because it looks cooler.
Jim! Hey there! How's it goin'?
John Delaney-- Yup! I was dying to do that Batman bracelets trick! AND point out the Batman broken back/purple ray solution. Was it petty and fanboyish? Shyeah! So what? (BTW, I know a Marvel editor who had such a BETTER solution than what they used: The Lazarus Pit! Isn't that just brilliant! And it comes from the Batman U too! BTW-- Am I the only one who finds it weird that when Batman breaks his back, everyone bends over... well... backwards to get it fixed. And they find a magical healer person-- out of left field-- who waves her hands and makes everything better. BUT WHEN BATGIRL BREAKS HER BACK then it's just "Aww... well... she's Oracle now. See ya!" Please tell me that someone else is bothered by that!)
Whoa! Did I go off on a weird tangent there OR WHAT?!
Anyway, thanks!
Dan

(P.S. Big favor here. Could everybody please just call me "Dan." All this "Mr. Slott" stuff is making me feel O-L-D! See ya!)

DisneyBoy

02-15-2002, 07:22 PM

Thanks again for the response, DAN ( :D ) and I just wanted to make sure that nothing I've written has offended you...

BeastBoyWonder

02-15-2002, 07:35 PM

I just read this thread, and my only comment is that its HILARIOUS!

EDIT: If you're looking for an...interesting...story, check out the story strings in the "Batman, Superman, and Beyond" forum. They may be on the second page.

Karkull

02-15-2002, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by Dan Slott
AND point out the Batman broken back/purple ray solution. Was it petty and fanboyish? Shyeah! So what? (BTW, I know a Marvel editor who had such a BETTER solution than what they used: The Lazarus Pit! Isn't that just brilliant! And it comes from the Batman U too! BTW-- Am I the only one who finds it weird that when Batman breaks his back, everyone bends over... well... backwards to get it fixed. And they find a magical healer person-- out of left field-- who waves her hands and makes everything better. BUT WHEN BATGIRL BREAKS HER BACK then it's just "Aww... well... she's Oracle now. See ya!" Please tell me that someone else is bothered by that!)

That bothers me too, Dan. They've even had issues where people have offered to help, but Barbara Gordon's like, "no, thanks, but I like being crippled!" Well, not really like that, but that's the message she sends across when she rejects offers for treatment.

DisneyBoy

02-15-2002, 07:38 PM

Ahh, the Lazurus Pit...good times :p

Clayface

02-15-2002, 08:26 PM

Ok, time to throw my hat in the ring. Here are some of my observations, thought not nearly as well thought out or presented as some of the comments by other posters!

I'll start with the writing - this means you, Mr. Slott! ;)

Overall, I enjoyed this issue. I thought it was fun, and had some very interesting ideas in it.

Yes, it was a bit rushed. But, as has been stated, you only had so many pages to present the story. So, I can forgive that.

Some of the dialogue by the Amazons was a bit stiff. I'm guessing you were going for a more formal speech pattern with them, but for me, it just fell flat.

I loved the whole earth-filled-jars bit. Very cool to see, and even cooler since I was already familiar with the source material.

I liked the final battle. It was well done, IMO, because it showed exactly what the team was about. A weakness of each character was shown. And then we saw how some other character's strength could make up for that first character's weakness. A very nice example of how each character balances another, and why they work so well as a team.

And I absolutely loved Flash's comment about "chicks" in the military - it was so un-PC, so sexist, and so Flash!

While the issue had a few minor flaws story-wise, I think overall it was very enjoyable. I look forward to more issues from you in the future!

Clayface

02-15-2002, 08:47 PM

Ok, now on to the art, and Min Ku. I'll start right off by saying I've not been a big fan of yours. And unfortunately, this issue hasn't won me over any. Generally, I find that the characters you draw are just too stiff, and often misproportioned, and this issue is no exception.

Here are some specific examples of panels that bugged me while reading through the issue:

Page 1: WW's head looks wrong on her body. I don't know why - wrong angle, wrong size, wrong something. But it just doesn't work.

Page 4, panel 2: Batman. Please, stop using that hand-on-the-hip pose. It looks so bad - Batman looks like he should be part of the Ambiguously Gay Duo there. And his hips are just too narrow. Flash looks rather emaciated in the background - especially his face.

Page 6, panels 2,3, and 5: MM looks like a neandertal.

Page 10, panels 1 and 2: My biggest pet peeve about your art - that dang shadow/highlight on Batman's cape. No, no, no, no, no, no! This crives me crazy! If you look back at Timm's original designs for the character, he specifically pointed out that when Batman's head is in front of the cape, you shouldn't use shadows like that to highlight the shape of his head. He was so right. It looks terrible. Please, please, please stop doing this! I'm begging you!
Also, in the first panel, I know its supposed to be an action shot, but it looks like Batman's about to fall flat on his face.

Page 15, panel 4: Popeye arms?

However, its not all bad. There are some panels that worked really well for me.

Page 3, panel 3: Nice proportions, nice shapes, and excellent pose. You couldn't have done a better job on this one.

Page 3, panel 5: Great close-up. Love the shapes you used on her face, and the energy around her eyes.

Page 5, panels 2 and 3: Love the way the flashback was handled here - very cool the way her hair is also the frame for the flashback. And sillouette in the next panel is very nice.

Page 6, panel 1: Very natural poses, and Flash looks great.

Page 11, panel 4: Great profile shot of Flash.

Page 18, panel 6: Nice proportions, natural poses, and the action is presented wonderfully. Great panel!

Page 20, panel 1: Probably the best WW action shot I've seen in any of the comics thus far. You did an excellent job here.

You've definitely got the potential to do these characters well, but I think you need some more work.

Joker85

02-15-2002, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by Clayface

Page 20, panel 1: Probably the best WW action shot I've seen in any of the comics thus far. You did an excellent job here.

You've definitely got the potential to do these characters well, but I think you need some more work.

Now that I agree. That was an excellent WW shot!! The whole comic had the potential to be this good,and I believe it very well could be in the future.
Dan, having you explain WW lack of time in the comic, and then going back and rereading it helped me to understand your point a little better. I can appreciate that now. Thanks for replying!! :)

Min S. Ku

02-16-2002, 01:01 AM

You step out for a day and you find this thread to be on it's third page already! How do you guys ever get any work done? ;)

Disneyboy... no offense has been taken. I do seriously care about this book (and the other animated titles) because a) I'm a fan of the show(s) and b) I make my living drawing in the animated style. If the book doesn't do well, I'm out of a job. :(

I love hearing the things I do RIGHT (who doesn't appreciate positive feedback?), but it's probably the negative feedback that sticks to me and haunts me when I'm at the drawing board. So I appreciate the time all of you took to suggest the areas of improvements I need (proportions, fluidity of characters...did i miss anything?) Believe me that I'll be keeping these points in mind when I'm drawing in the future.

Regarding Martian Manhunter looking like a Neanderthal, I absolutely agree! J'onn's head looks DEFORMED! I do cringe at some areas from this book, but this was my very first assignment in drawing the Justice League. I am a lot more comfortable drawing the fab seven and Martian Manhunter looks a lot better these days! ;)

John D...thanks for chiming in on what you thought of the book...always love to hear what my fellow storytellers have to say about your work. BTW, I thought your story turned out very well, art and story wise. Clear, solid storytelling... Great design of the big ship on the front page! Loved that roll call in the splash...how come I never got to do a roll call? sniff sniff

Originally posted by DisneyBoy
I know it's green...I just don't know why! I would be very surprised to see anything done in B:TAS style anymore. Ever since Timm declared that TNBA was they way things were meant to look, nothing, not even the flashback in Mad Love was rendered in the original B:TAS style. Sad really, since some characters looked much better in it. Including Riddler...and Batman!

I know this has been mentioned already, but that is indeed the TNBA Riddler with Metallo's arm miscolored green. Hopefully they'll have it corrected before it goes to press. Regarding nothing being rendered in the original B:TAS... that's probably the reason why Dan and I decided to go with the TNBA Catwoman instead of the B:TAS. I personally liked the designs of the original Catwoman, Ivy, the Riddler etc...but I also like TNBA versions of Scarecrow, Bane and the Penguin to name a few. I was really tempted to use MY favorite versions of some of these characters...like BTAS Catwoman, TBNA Bane, BTAS Poison Ivy... etc; but we thought it would be best for continuity's sake, to keep them all as the current, established looks. It's also the reason why we decided to update the look of Count Vertigo... We weren't using any BTAS designs, so why start with him? Besides, I agree with Dan that the green and black costume from the comics made him look COOLER (at least IMHO).

Thanks again to everybody that's contributed to the critiques.

Min

Salvor

02-16-2002, 04:22 AM

Ok here's my contribution to this thread (hey Min, long time no talk :))

Storywise I found it very enjoyable. I'm actually surprised by the amount of complaints, considering the story seemed a lot better written than the previous ones (I didn't manage to read Paul Storrie's though). Especially the fight scenes worked really well. The interactions between the members and the stand-alone fights were nicely balanced.

Artwise well I think Clayface pretty much summed it up. You know, I think it could be easily improved, there are just a few things that need to be fixed... nothing paramount. To my mind most panels give a way too broad view of the scene. See page 6 panel 4, page 7 panels 2, 4, page 8 pannel 4 and so on. Hence the misproportionned bodies Clayface hinted at. Au contraire, close-ups such as page 6 panel 1, or page 14 panels 1, 4 are very good-lookin'.

Also, Min, you should work on your Superman :). He looks a bit off. Again, it's minor. Other characters look fabulous (great job on Ares by the way).

Karkull

02-16-2002, 10:05 AM

Hmm. I thought that Min's Superman was good. Oh well.

The redesign for Count Vertigo is pretty cool, but was he ever pegged down as being Count Vertigo in BTAS? He probably was--I might have missed it--but I just thought that it was a character adapted from Vertigo. Either way, he looks pretty cool.

I noticed that he was missing his monocle, so does that mean that his power comes from another source?

Trent Lane

02-16-2002, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Dan Slott

Trent,
Please criticize! Everybody has every right to criticize. I TOTALLY want to hear where you think I went wrong... that way I won't do it again. You read something, you think it can be better, I want to know. Really!

Okay, the thing that got me about this one is that is was pushed into twenty-two pages. A war between the Amazons and the Justice League would make a great two parter, especially if they had gone after Ares instead of standing there like he was just some other guy. I realize the probably didn't know who it was, but Wonder Woman seemed to at the very least have a hunch. I'd say that's the biggest thing, the fact that they didn't confront Ares. On the plus side, props for the Supergirl cameo, that was pretty cool, and I could hear J'onn's voice coming from Kara. And it was cool to see Batman yet again take control of the situation as he did. The writers of JL must be the biggest Batman fans in the world, and I'm all for it!!! I hope the criticism was a little more elaborate than my last post, but I have a TON of respect you for the work guys you do. Keep it up and I look forward to your next appearance in the JLAdv.!!! And thanks to you and Min Ku for dropping by the board, it's cool to get to talk to guys like you....

DisneyBoy

02-16-2002, 11:28 AM

I second that notion! I totally respect and am greatful to Delaney, Min, Dan, and everyother artist and writer that drops by on these boards to converse with us. There's nothing more important to a fan than knowing that he or she has been heard. The way you all took out criticisms and kept posting proves to us that you really do care about your work and about us, and that really means everything.

Mr. Slott, it's been a while since I gave a compliment on your work so here goes - THANK YOU FOR FEATURING ARES!!! I discovered the 80's Wonder Woman George Perez run when DC re-issued the first issue and I instanly fell in love. It was the best presentation of Diana I'd ever seen, and I hope to find issues #13- #24 at the next comic convention I attend. It really means everything to me that Diana finally gets the animated/adventures attention she deserves and since Justice League is her first big chance, I intend to watch her development closely. Knowing that you tried to bring in Ares is a great step, though I still do wish that the show would have done it first so that this issue doesn't someday make no sense. In any case, I eagerly await finally getting to read this story, and once again, thanks for caring!

P.S.
I liked your explanation for the TNBA designs. And I can forgive the whole Count Verigo thing :rolleyes: . He was in one episode - if it was Catwoman or Two-Face you redesigned then I have something to complain about! I'm sure #6 will be enjoyable...but rumour has it that #7 has a cheesy plot...care to comment?

Dan Slott

02-16-2002, 01:43 PM

From the glimpses I've seen of JUSTICE LEAGUE ADV. #7 it looks to be a throwback to MY FAVORITE ERA of FLASH! During the wondrous SILVER AGE almost anything could happen to Barry Allen! Remember the story where his head grew to giant sizes? Or when Mirror Master turned him into a living mirror-- or a genie trapped in a bottle? Once Gorilla Grodd zapped him with a super-science ray that not only turned him into the FATTEST MAN ON EARTH-- but also gave him amnesia to boot! And don't forget there was a classic tale where Abra Kadabra turned Barry into a LIVING PUPPET! Those were some of the greatest, most fantastical stories EVER!!! I am so bummed that we live in a time where fans DEMAND that their comics be REALISTIC-- as if guys 'powered by yellow sunlight', dressed up in tights, defying the laws of gravity, breaking the speed of sound, while looking through non-lead-lined objects with their X-Ray vision could EVER EVER EVER EVER BE REAL!
Ahem... Slowly... stepping... off... the... soapbox....
Anyway, it looks like the team on ISSUE #7 is taking a crack at doing a SILVER AGE style Flash tale, where the Flash goes through a bizarre transformation. Into WHAT? You'll have to wait and see! All I can say is that I CAN'T WAIT! I'll definitely be the first in line to pick up a copy of that issue! I only wish that I had the cajones to pitch a story like that!
TTYL!
Dan

(BTW: If you want to see what some on-line reviewers have said about Justice League Adv. #4, check out these sites:
Dave's Capsules & Awards for Feb 13 at the AOL Newsgroup: rec.arts.comics.reviews
www.SpinnerRack.com
www.comicbookgalaxy.com
www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com
and there's also been some posts at the DC Comics message boards at
http://dcboards.warnerbros.com
Anyone know of any others? Just wondering. Thanks).

The Green Hornet

02-17-2002, 12:41 AM

Heres what i REALLY liked about JL Adventures #4

The art is great-- every hero looks fairly true to form and seeing J'onn as KARA is AWESOME =)

The dialogue is actually pretty good (most of it anyway) Flash's lines are actually pretty good and not too simple-- his question as to whether supes has that line copywrited causes me to chuckle every time i read the panel

Here what i didnt like so much about this issue

Flash has his butt handed to him yet again-- i sure wish someone would remember he has some uses of the speed force other than just runing really fast =)

Superman-- even SUPER CHARGED WITH THE FULL POWER OF A YELLOW STAR HE COULDNT BEAT HIPPOLYTA?? come on guys i understand hes supposed to be underpowered, and maybe i wouldnt have such a problem with this if it werent for who you had beat her

I am really coming to hate The Batman-- which is sad because i used to love his character

how many more times can this keep happening? the league is at a standstill when batman either swoops in, pulls out some hidden trick from his sleeve or simply decides to beat the person hes fighting-- meanwhile superman and flash are looking like batman could beat them mano-a-mano no secret plans no bat-belt etc
this is getting old........FAST

for ONCE id like to see some villian hatch a SWEET plot, have batman arrogantly come in thinking he can stop it and then have that supervillian hand batman his ass-- leaving Superman and/or Flash to figure out the complex scheme and then also HANDEDLY beat the supervillian toe to toe-- making batman look bad for once

ANYWAY after loving issue 3 and now 4, JL Adventures has officially joined my pull list (as the first comic ive begun pulling since i began reading comics again no less!

good job overall and i REALLY REALLY look forward to your upcoming FLASH story in 7!

Batman 80

02-17-2002, 03:31 PM

What is issue number 7 going to be about? And when will we see Mongul or Grodd or the Injustice Gang in JL adventures?

James Harvey

02-17-2002, 03:38 PM

What is issue number 7 going to be about?
Gotta wait until Tuesday...but it centers on The Flash.

And when will we see Mongul or Grodd or the Injustice Gang in JL adventures?

Hard to say, whenever a story about them is written and assigned an issue number.

Dan Slott

02-17-2002, 03:43 PM

Well, since I'm not the writer for Issue #7, I don't think it's my place to give away any tidbits. But I can tell you that it will be a Flash centered story. To answer your other questions: You'll see a couple members of the Injustice Gang in Issue #6 (done by Min and Me-- the same team as Issue #4). And you can expect a brief cameo by Gorilla Grodd in Issue #10 (another Min and Me production!)-- that's a good SIX MONTHS away if you can stand it-- a pretty long time to wait for just a cameo! But you'll be seeing Gorilla Grodd in the cartoons any time now. Hope that helps.
TTYL!
Dan

PDStorrie

02-18-2002, 12:17 AM

Hey there Dan,

Originally posted by Dan Slott
In the past, I got some criticism for making my last adventures comic (SUPERMAN ADVENTURES #57) a little text heavy. And I felt that the next adventures story I wrote (a BATMAN: GOTHAM ADVENTURES inventory-- which hasn't been slated yet) was a little panel heavy. So maybe I went a little overboard (or rather underboard) with panel counts and balloon placement on this script. You'll notice that there's only 4 six panel pages in this story-- everything else was whittled down to four and five panels a page. This was a a deliberate effort to have a story with bigger visuals (Allowing a larger canvas for Min Ku's gorgeous art! AND big "hero shots" and "money shots" for a book that's also aimed at younger readers).

One of the things that blew my mind when I was getting ready to write my first BATMAN BEYOND story was going through the back issues and realizing that the AVERAGE panels per page count was 5, with plenty of 4 panel pages mixed in. My previous work had plenty of 6 panel pages (or more) and the lower panel count took some getting used to. I guess what I'm saying is, "I feel your pain."

On a more trivial note (a WAY more trivial note), this story was also written months and months before the first episode of Justice League had aired on cartoon network. In fact, this issue was the first Justice League Adventures script in the drawer at DC-- and, for a while, had a good shot at being Justice League Adventures #1.

Likewise with my issue, which became JLAdv. #2. I'd had the story done for months before the first ep aired. In fact, when I saw the first episode, I was slightly disappointed to learn that Hawkgirl normally used a power mace because I had her using a spear instead! Surprisingly, no one called me on it.

Anyway... The only Justice League reference I had to work with was the full script to the three part "Secret Origins", the series bible, and the OUTLINE for Paradise Lost parts 1 & 2.

Consider yourself fortunate! I only had the series bible. Guess I should grumble to Steve W. :)

PDS

Dan Slott

02-18-2002, 08:51 AM

"Consider yourself fortunate! I only had the series bible. Guess I should grumble to Steve W."

PDS

PLEASE don't grumble to Steve, Paul. Steve doesn't like grumbling. I probably got more ref. than you because I live in New York and it's easy for me to drop by DC and read stuff in the office. (A lot of the scripts are "top secret" and can't leave the premises-- or else they release the dogs!)
By the time I was working on Issue #6 though, I was able to read the scripts for "Injustice for All", "The Fury", "War World", and "In Blackest Night". This is one of the joys AND curses of working on licensed properties-- you GET to see the stuff ahead of time-- AND you MUST see the stuff ahead of time. It makes it really hard to ENJOY the show as a fan because you know all the surprises and NOTHING is new. I am SO looking forward to "The Brave and the Bold" episodes, because I have no idea what's going to happen in them!
BTW Paul, your story really HONKED me off! No offense-- it wasn't the story itself, (AN ACTION PACKED STORY and a RIPPING YARN!!!), BUT it WAS a story about women warriors fighting the Justice League with magic weapons. When I read the scene where one of your female warriors zapped Hawkgirl with magic water and then blasted J'onn with magic fire I was all, "AHH! That happens in my story too! Nooooooooo!" Now bear in mind, my issue was in the drawer well before Ty Templeton's, Fabian Nicieza's, and months before yours! Oh, the agony! Now NONE OF US KNEW WHAT THE OTHERS WERE DOING of course (except for maybe Ty and myself-- we're buds and bounce stuff off each other all the time. Fabian has been my official-comic-book-mentor for over a DECADE and we gab about stuff too). But that didn't stop Ty and myself from having nearly identical lines of Flash dialogue (Issue#1 FLASH: "Hey, I'm the Flash. 'Quick' is my middle name!"/ Issue #4 FLASH: "Lady, 'fast' is my middle name!"). And that didn't stop both Fabian and me from having key fight scenes in the DCU country of Qurac! AHHHHH!
So there you have it! Through nobody's fault, my issue ends up with little bits of Issues #1, #2, and #3! But, he says screaming like a lunatic from the bell tower, I was HERE FIRST! AHHHHH!
Whoa! That was theraputic! Anyone who read through my lil' session there-- thanks for puttin' up with my histrionics. It's appreciated.
BTW Paul, you've chimed in on your Justice League Adventures experience-- but what did you THINK about the issue itself? I'd really like know, man! So out with it-- I can take it. :)
TTYL!
Dan

DisneyBoy

02-18-2002, 11:25 AM

I finally had a chance to pick up JLA #4, and now I'm beginning to feel like my comments last week may now overshadow the fact that I did enjoy this read! Yup, I liked it !

Now, for all of the complaints that I hand you, Min, I was surprised by how many panels I really thought were perfect ! Frankly, if you only drew the heads of the characters, I'd have nothing to complain about! Um...let me re-phrase...I think you have some trouble getting the legs on Wondie and co. right, especially in action shots, but the facial features were dead-on! Diana, Batman and J'onn looked great in several panels (which I can't name now since I don't have the issue here), but the Flash on that first panel looked - yikes! His head just didn't look right at that angle....but all in all, this was leaps and bounds ahead of #1!

The Supergirl cameo was funny - especially J'onn's expression upon Batman's suggestion! Seeing Ares pleased me - although I don't think you can be compared to George Perez (no offense!) To echo what's already been said, a two-parter would have worked better, Dan, though you didn't really have much choice...but I really think you should be praised for trying to incorporate nearly everything related to Wonder Woman into 22 pages! Sure, it seemed like a can of over-stuffed Raveoli, but anyone could pick up this issue and learn about Diana's history - without feeling like they were attending history class! Major cudos for that! I thought the God-weapons were a bit cheesy (were they ever a part of DC continuity?), but the pots made sense, mainly because you verified it here at the boards.

One question : Why did you write that their bracelets were the source of their power??? (Oh the agony!) The (muffled laughed) femenim bracelets were only from the Lynda Carter show as far as I know...and I found it odd that you still made that association after recognising that Hercules beating and assaulting Hippolyta was the reason for the bracelets...kinda mixed continuities there....

But anyways, I really enjoyed it! Finally a story that didn't take me five minutes to read! I'll be re-reading it over and over thanks to your work and Min's art - though I still plan on criticising until he gets it perfect! :D

Oh, Min, what's with the designs for the buildings on the island? It looked more like Iraq...sorry..Quraq...than Greece! And that shot on the second page made their buildings look like a Roman-styled stage I saw at Canada's Wonderland once! odd.... ;)

The Electric Knight

02-19-2002, 06:20 AM

First of all can I say how great it is to see comic book artists and writers come and talk with us fans.

I've bought all the JLAdv issues so far, I didn't really care for the first issue, but I really liked number 2 and 3. I picked up issue 4 a few days ago, and, while I didn't like it quite as much as 2 and 3, I still thought it was pretty good.

I really like your work Mr Ku. You seem to capture the style nicely. I can see where people are coming from with the stiffness, but overall I didn't really notice it. It was all pretty nice, some panels were especially good. I really didn't like the bit where Supes is hit down then it seems to flip him upside down for a close up of him saying "Boy I hate magic", that didn't seem natural. But besides that it was all pretty cool. Good job!

Oh, and the cover - awesome!

Mr Slott you obviously put a lot of work into the background of this story which is always good to see. It was an interesting romp, but, as I've found with all of them, it was tight-squeezed. 22 pages for seven characters is hard no matter how you say it. And the reason this feels extra cramped is because one character isn't slightly spotlighted, they are all given pretty equal time. In ish 2, Martian Manhunter standed out, and in ish 3, Supes did, so they didn't feel quite as pushed. It was a worthwhile story nonetheless. Good job!

I'm just glad Mr Peterson isn't writing for this book...then it would feel really cramped. His love for unnescessary splash pages is detrimental to a story with just Batman let alone seven heroes... :rolleyes:

TEK :)

Min S. Ku

02-19-2002, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by The Electric Knight

I really like your work Mr Ku. You seem to capture the style nicely. I can see where people are coming from with the stiffness, but overall I didn't really notice it. It was all pretty nice, some panels were especially good. I really didn't like the bit where Supes is hit down then it seems to flip him upside down for a close up of him saying "Boy I hate magic", that didn't seem natural. But besides that it was all pretty cool. Good job!

Thanks for your two cents TEK! That panel you mentioned was on the top of my list of "things I would have done differently if i had the chance." I agree that it interrupted the flow of the action. Glad to hear you liked it overall though!

Min

TheHuntressDiana

02-20-2002, 07:59 PM

I thought the part where adding "the sweat and tears of women would bring the unwavering loyalty of every woman born on that soil..." Very interesting twist.

On page 5...the center panel. Where Diana is explaining about the soil in the pots...loved the blending of her hair and the colors...just everything about that panel. Nice work. :)

I also enjoyed the images of the other Amazons doing "bullets and bracelets"

I do have to say though...I am disappointed that you decided to use the "when an Amazons bracelets are bound by a man, she loses her powers"... I've never liked that one.

Seeing Flash bested by the sandals of Hermes....was interesting.

Ahh...Ares. Gotta love the God of War (whether it be the DC Comics version or the Xena version {May Kevin rest in peace}). And he leaves with "Believe what you will Princess. but there will come a day..." I love it when Gods act all mysterious. :)

Good issue. I enjoyed it. :dot:

Maxie Zeus

02-21-2002, 03:16 PM

If anyone is wondering where the rest of this really cool thread went, I split it off into it's thread: Justice League Artists Talkback. (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20620)

Grrr. Still have to track this issue down. You people are having all the fun, and I'm stuck cleaning up the threads. :mad: :D :p

Maxie Zeus

02-27-2002, 08:37 PM

So I'm coming in really late, but that's not my fault (rackin' frackin' comic book shop).

I am not a big comic book reader, which basically means that I can only go with my gut reaction. And my gut reaction was: Whoa, this is pretty dang cool!

Art: I'm easy to please, and if it has a minimal number of cool panels (all of which are mentioned above) and doesn't have any really bad screw ups then I'm happy as a clam. In fact, there was only one panel that bothered me, #4 on p. 8, with J'onn flying through a rock and failing to get through the gem. Not until the second time reading it did I realize that J'onn had phased through the rock on the way in. I thought Hippolyta had materialized a rock and trapped him. I think that's mostly due to the ill-defined and flapping feet on the other side (without them, I think it would have looked like J'onn was emerging from the rock), but maybe it would have been better just to drop the rock entirely. I was so distracted trying to figure out that damn rock and what it was doing there that basically missed/ignored J'onn's problem with the gem. (But maybe that's just me being stupid -- I noticed no one else in this thread had that problem. :D)

One panel I don't think was mentioned were the paired opposites on the top of page 15, which gave us a quasi-panoramic view of the battlefield, while simultaneously suggesting Batman's act of looking around to find the weak spot. Maybe that's an old stand-by technique, but on my first reading through, I actually stopped to admire it.

Story: Twenty-two pages is a short space, and the issue works better as an anecdote -- JL and Amazons whoop ass -- than as a story as such. (I think this is what some people were getting at about it being "rushed.") But I think there's nothing wrong with that, especially when it's handled with the aplomb that Dan brings to it.

There are lots of quick, almost throw-away bits that do a tremendous amount to raise the suspense and generate conflict. Five quick panels on pp. 2 and 3 set up Hippolyta as the ambiguous figure who is too easily swayed by the false Athena; 4 panels on pp. 5 and 6 give us some good intra-JL tensions -- the last is especially important, since it raises and defuses the issue of female loyalty that Diana's explanation immediately raises in our minds.

The story does a great job of characterizing the heroes and showing off their various powers. I love the idea of each JLer being paired off against a specially prepared Amazon; that way we get to see them use their special ability, see them thwarted, and then triumph when (as Seinfeld would say) they pull the old switcheroo on the Amazons.

Against what someone said earlier, Batman did not simply walk in and save the day. As intimated on p. 13 (panel 4) he simply saw earlier the need to avoid specific foes. But even he fell into the trap on p. 14 of pitting himself against his special foe. Once he showed the way, GL and Flash quickly picked up on it. As for smashing the pots, that's what the JL had come to the island to do; he just got in the first blow. And Diana was really the key at the end, using the lasso to strip Ares of his disguise. Beautiful teamwork, all around, and not just a case of one hero swooping in to save the day.

As for those pots: Probably I was spoiled, since I'd read this thread and thus knew the background that Dan had prepared, but it didn't bother me as implausible or contrived. It does seem to me open to misinterpretation by the casual reader. The explanation is parcelled out over four panels (on p. 5), and the juxtaposition of words and text might have been handled more cleanly. For instance, even knowing what Dan had said, I interpreted the figures in panel two (that really cool panel of Min's) as showing the Amazons filling the pots. Now, if I, knowing what Dan had said about this being a historical allusion, could make that mistake, how much easier for the casual reader like Supes to assume it was Amazonian mumbo-jumbo from top to bottom?

I wonder that it might have worked better if the allusion to "man's wartime rituals" had been made in panel two. Something like this (Diana throughout):

Panel 1: "Long ago it was the custom..."

Panel 2: "...that the advancing armies of men would fill jars with the earth and water of fallen nations. These amphorae would be brought home... ...as symbols that these lands were now part of the greater empire."

Panel 3: "The Amazons adapted it when we discovered that by adding women's sweat and tears... ...a most precious gift was gained..."

Panel 4: "..the unwavering loyalty of every woman born to that soil."

That's a real nitpick, I know. But it says something about how much I liked this story that that bit and the J'onn/rock encounter are the only bits that jarred or annoyed me. The rest was enormous fun.

Min S. Ku

02-28-2002, 02:13 AM

Wow! What a review! Late is better than never, and I'm glad you chimed in Maxie Zeus...

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
So I'm coming in really late, but that's not my fault (rackin' frackin' comic book shop).

I am not a big comic book reader, which basically means that I can only go with my gut reaction. And my gut reaction was: Whoa, this is pretty dang cool!

Thanks! That was my basic gut reaction too, when I first read this script...

Art: I'm easy to please, and if it has a minimal number of cool panels (all of which are mentioned above) and doesn't have any really bad screw ups then I'm happy as a clam. In fact, there was only one panel that bothered me, #4 on p. 8, with J'onn flying through a rock and failing to get through the gem. Not until the second time reading it did I realize that J'onn had phased through the rock on the way in. I thought Hippolyta had materialized a rock and trapped him. I think that's mostly due to the ill-defined and flapping feet on the other side (without them, I think it would have looked like J'onn was emerging from the rock), but maybe it would have been better just to drop the rock entirely. I was so distracted trying to figure out that damn rock and what it was doing there that basically missed/ignored J'onn's problem with the gem. (But maybe that's just me being stupid -- I noticed no one else in this thread had that problem. :D)

That's another panel that makes me cringe today... It was me, trying to follow Dan's plot to the letter... He wanted me to show Supergirl changing back into J'onn's martian form, phasing through a rock to reach Diana, but finding himself not being able to penetrate the magic gem. Like you suggested, if I had to do it again, I'd probably would've gotten rid of the rock altogether.

Appreciate all the time and effort all of you guys took to weigh in on your thoughts of this issue!

Min

Dan Slott

02-28-2002, 06:04 AM

Ah! Seems like Min and Maxie can't smell what the rock is cookin'! Um... Look guys, the rock is necessary. If not for the rock, new readers wouldn't know that J'onn COULD become intangible. We needed to see him go through something, so that when he couldn't go through the gem, we too would share his surprise.

Hmmm... Min & Maxie, is it just me or does that sound like it has the making of a good WB Cartoon? Just kiddin'! Anyway, I agree with both of you. There was probably a better way to show J'onn's intangibility earlier in the story. :)
TTYL!
Dan

Maxie Zeus

02-28-2002, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Dan Slott
Ah! Seems like Min and Maxie can't smell what the rock is cookin'! Um... Look guys, the rock is necessary. If not for the rock, new readers wouldn't know that J'onn COULD become intangible. We needed to see him go through something, so that when he couldn't go through the gem, we too would share his surprise.

I kinda guessed that's what it was about. But then I thought:

(a) If we needed to be told he had that phasing ability, why did he also have dialogue communicating that fact? I haven't got the ish here at the office (and I may have to go out and buy and eat a hat with a stuffed crow on it if I'm misremembering) but as he pressed thru the rock and against the gem, didn't he have a line about how the gem was impervious to his phasing ability? I thought that line alone would give the required info.

(b) Maybe this is a matter of execution: Having the rock and the gem in the same panel kind of confused matters. There's a lot of information being squeezed into that one panel: That J'onn can phase through most matter, but can't get through this gem. In the earlier panel we see him changing from his "Kara" form to his true Martian form in one graceful arc. Maybe if the rock slide-through had been in that panel, as part of that arc of metamorphosis, it wouldn't have looked quite so odd. But I dunno.

Really, I am just nitpicking. I'm a natural nitpicker, though, so if I'm just picking away at one little nit, that tells you how much I really liked the whole thing. ;)

[BHmmm... Min & Maxie, is it just me or does that sound like it has the making of a good WB Cartoon? [/B]

No, "Maxie & Min," cuz gods get top billing! :D So how about this pitch: It's the picaresque adventures of a delusional shipping tycoon who thinks he's the reincarnation of a Greek deity, and the comic-book artist who travels about with him recording and sketching his comic misadventures. It's like Don Quixote for the prepubescent set!

Oh, wait, you were looking for a "good" WB cartoon. That's different. :p