Toon Zone Talkback - 4Kids Ent. Posts Loss for 2nd Quarter of 2007

[TheFZAtUGSOnline]

This is the talkback thread for 4Kids Ent. Posts Loss for 2nd Quarter of 2007 (http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=18466).

Ouch, looks like TMNT and Chaotic aren't helping the company save itself at all, let's hope that Dinosaur King and Di-Gata Defenders try to save the company...

[J'onn J'onzz]

This is the talkback thread for 4Kids Ent. Posts Loss for 2nd Quarter of 2007 (http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=18466).

Ouch, looks like TMNT and Chaotic aren't helping the company save itself at all, let's hope that Dinosaur King and Di-Gata Defenders try to save the company...
I'm sure most people are hoping that 4kids won't get saved, not will.

[Karl Olson]

Yeah, they need to clear out the current management, which mean they need to bomb long enough for the board to get angry enough to a get a real CEO in there. They don't know how to run a company, they've lucked into fads. That's not savvy, that's luck.

[Elrohir]

4Kids has never cared about bringing quality shows to kids. All they care about is money, and now they're losing it.

[Dark Fact]

I haven't seen any evidence that Chaotic is even taking off. The show is boring, and from what I've heard from people who played the game online, even the game is boring. We'll have to see how Dinosaur King takes off. If it doesn't, I'm not too sure about the company's future. :shrug:

[River26]

I agree with you guys. If they don't bring fresh material and do it fast. There's no chance that they'll survive and just crumble like sand.

I never liked the company anyways. Sonic X was my fav anime, but since they took control of it. It became un-watchable. But for OP, thank goodness FUNimation took it away from them.

Plus they had poor acting. They just threw these random actors that they would think would fit the characters. But fortunately, they were sadly mistaken. Not only that but several posters on Youtube already have literally cut them down to shreds. By their comments alone.

[Draft]

Hooray!!!

Best News i've heard all day!

Heres to 4K!DS dead by the end of the decade, so kids 2-0 years from now will wonder "What's 4K!DS Entertainment"

[River26]

And regard to Toon Overlord's Eyeshield 21 sig. Can you guys imagine if 4Kids were to pick up Eyeshield 21. I mean, talk about disaster city.

- Not only will the acting be un-emotional but will sound like from a bad movie that has bad acting (remember Double Dragon)?

- The names would be changed to fit Americanized names

- OP/ED themes would be no doubt Americanized. "Yo, yo, we're fresh. We can do our best if we give it our all." And similar crap like that roflmao.

- There would be arc jumping, episodes will be compressed. It will just be a total nightmare.

I'm definitely glad that VIZ Media took the initiative to promote it's Eyeshield 21 anime both on Toonami Jetstream and NFL Rush.

[Dudley]

4Kids has never cared about bringing quality shows to kids. All they care about is money, and now they're losing it.

That statement couldn't be more true. Every time I read their press release, they seemed to care more about how much money their gonna make of the franchise, than the franchise itself.

[Arxane]

That statement couldn't be more true. Every time I read their press release, they seemed to care more about how much money their gonna make of the franchise, than the franchise itself.

Well, to be fair, virtually every company cares mostly about money. I doubt Viz and Funi and Geneon and all the rest are bringing anime over to the US out of the kindness of their heart.

However, those companies have shown that you can respect the properties you own while you try to make money. Viz has a money-making machine in Naruto and pimps it in ways that would make the Japanese merchandise machine cheer, but they had the decency to respect the property and treat it correctly in order to appeal to both the hardcore fans and the kids who're only just getting into the series.

4Kids, on the other hand, think its methods are somehow responsible for their past millions. They honestly believe that bad jokes, replaced soundtracks, and lazy voice direction - coupled with no concessions to the hardcore crowd - are the keys to profiting from anime in America. Unfortunately for them, the anime fandom has gotten large enough that 4Kids' tactics are no longer tolerated, and if they don't change their ways soon, they'll fade away like Goku to the next dimension.

[TKnHappyNess]

Maybe they should do the same thing to the shows that LittleKuriboh does with Yu-gi-oh Abridged: Cut out all the boring crap, add some humor, and it's good. LK took the 4 or 5 ep Yugi vs. Pegasus ep and made it good.

[D Dubbs]

To be honest, I think you guys are taking the bashing too far. Yes...4Kids certainly isn't the greatest dubbing company but they aren't all bad either. They've managed to create a Pokemon dub that many fans (including myself) enjoyed for 8 years. And although I'm not a fan of TMNT, I've heard that the 4Kids series was one of the best things to happen to the franchise.



- OP/ED themes would be no doubt Americanized. "Yo, yo, we're fresh. We can do our best if we give it our all." And similar crap like that roflmao.


Well, chances are pretty good that Viz will create a American opening for Eyeshield, like they did with other Jetstream-exclusive shows, such as PoT and MAR.

[RomanMack]

It doesn't matter if they change their ways soon, cause they barely have anymore anime.

The only one that'd really benefit from uncut DVDs is Yu-Gi-Oh. That's it. Everything else they have is something they made.

[Undrave]

To be honest, I think you guys are taking the bashing too far. Yes...4Kids certainly isn't the greatest dubbing company but they aren't all bad either. They've managed to create a Pokemon dub that many fans (including myself) enjoyed for 8 years. And although I'm not a fan of TMNT, I've heard that the 4Kids series was one of the best things to happen to the franchise.



The thing is the TMNT show got away with far more stuff than 4Kids' liscenced franchises. I mean Leo decapitated Shredder on screen for gawd sake! Sure it was just an Utrom exo-skeleton but we didn't know that!

And its not just anime they mess with, anything from other country. They even cut small stuff out of Di-gata Defenders and crop it up to make it full screen instead of the original widescreen format. They cut like 20 seconds off the first episode. For what? More promotion of Chaotic I suppose.

[Gokou Ruri]

The thing is the TMNT show got away with far more stuff than 4Kids' liscenced franchises. I mean Leo decapitated Shredder on screen for gawd sake! Sure it was just an Utrom exo-skeleton but we didn't know that! American shows can get away with more than dubs can, but I don't see how that makes it bad.

[Undrave]

American shows can get away with more than dubs can, but I don't see how that makes it bad.

It's a double standard? Normally that's considered bad.

[PC!]

4Kids, on the other hand, think its methods are somehow responsible for their past millions. They honestly believe that bad jokes, replaced soundtracks, and lazy voice direction - coupled with no concessions to the hardcore crowd - are the keys to profiting from anime in America. Unfortunately for them, the anime fandom has gotten large enough that 4Kids' tactics are no longer tolerated, and if they don't change their ways soon, they'll fade away like Goku to the next dimension.

Very well put. It worked quite well back in the day when anime wasn't very commonplace, and unfortunately, they still think it works today. Simply put, the desires of anime fans have changed over the years, and 4Kids is unwilling to adapt with them. And now they're paying for it. With their hot properties gone, they're scraping together whatever they can find to get by. And it's not working particularly well.

[Elrohir]

Well, to be fair, virtually every company cares mostly about money. I doubt Viz and Funi and Geneon and all the rest are bringing anime over to the US out of the kindness of their heart.

However, those companies have shown that you can respect the properties you own while you try to make money. Viz has a money-making machine in Naruto and pimps it in ways that would make the Japanese merchandise machine cheer, but they had the decency to respect the property and treat it correctly in order to appeal to both the hardcore fans and the kids who're only just getting into the series.

4Kids, on the other hand, think its methods are somehow responsible for their past millions. They honestly believe that bad jokes, replaced soundtracks, and lazy voice direction - coupled with no concessions to the hardcore crowd - are the keys to profiting from anime in America. Unfortunately for them, the anime fandom has gotten large enough that 4Kids' tactics are no longer tolerated, and if they don't change their ways soon, they'll fade away like Goku to the next dimension.
There's nothing wrong with making money. But when a business puts that above their work ethic, they risk losing it. 4Kids is an excellent example of a very poor work ethic. People who don't even like cartoons somehow end up working on them. As a result most of the shows are noticeably poor in quality. A product is only as good as what's put into it.

[Light Lucario]

To be honest, I think you guys are taking the bashing too far. Yes...4Kids certainly isn't the greatest dubbing company but they aren't all bad either. They've managed to create a Pokemon dub that many fans (including myself) enjoyed for 8 years. And although I'm not a fan of TMNT, I've heard that the 4Kids series was one of the best things to happen to the franchise.

I agree with this statement so much. I understand why people bash 4Kids and dislike them and all, but there are just some moments where it goes too far. Especially when its like hoping that the company will die out after hearing about how much money it loses. I know that other companies do better work than 4Kids, but I don't see the majority of their work as being unwatchable. I am one of those fans that enjoyed their dub of Pokemon so much. Most people will agree that it was their best dub, if not one of the best, that 4Kids ever did. I wasn't too much of a TMNT fan either, but it was a extrememly good series.

[TheAnimeBoy16]

To be honest, I think you guys are taking the bashing too far. Yes...4Kids certainly isn't the greatest dubbing company but they aren't all bad either. They've managed to create a Pokemon dub that many fans (including myself) enjoyed for 8 years. And although I'm not a fan of TMNT, I've heard that the 4Kids series was one of the best things to happen to the franchise.

I have to second this. People hate the company so much, however, it sometimes gets to a point where it just gets too far. And, 4Kids hasn't been all bad. Take their Pokemon dub for example, when it was discovered that it's current owners, Pokemon USA, was going to change it's voice actors from the ones that were already in place, people were angry and, to the surprise of many, thought that a 4Kids dub was better than a new dub and caused people to flood inboxes trying to stop this dub from coming on air (it didn't work though obviously). TMNT got a rebirth in the marketplace thanks to 4Kids and thansk to it's movie it shows it's still viable in the marketplace. So, people need to tone down the 4Kids bashing to a minimum.


Also, despite me being a 4Kids hater just as the next hardcore otaku, I have to be concerned here. 4Kids Entertainment hasn't produced a killer property, save for TMNT, since Yu-Gi-Oh and that has basically left the limelight for the most part. And, despite the MAJOR hype Chaotic had before it's launch, that has for the most part bombed. And, their Fox block is doing terrible compared to it's predecessor (Fox Kids). Their TV dubs recently have caused firestorms, especially One Piece, which ticked off the home country to the point of it being virtually taken away from them while the licensing agreement was still in effect. And if they don't find/create a killer property soon, they may be in serious financial difficulties. So much so that they may need to consider going private OR put itself on the block (as I said in another thread). Either those OR a major management cleanup is in order. The PRs are really concerning me since they stress that they still have money in the bank despite, what seems like every quarter, they lose that money. If they were smart, they would try to slow down on the money spending and a management change is in order. They probably shouldn't have ended the PUSA/4Kids Pokemon Partnership since that's, IIRC, when this major downfall began. Their other downfall is the fact that the majority of their products are aged. The way things look now, 4Kids may be either bought out, be private, or will be in bankruptcy protection (this is different than regular bankruptcy in that you can come out of it in a few years time) by the end of the decade. The days of massive bankruptcy filings is over, this is the age of bankruptcy protection. Man, am I smart or what? :D

[macattack]

I actually don't think the dubs are too bad, all things considering, they just needed better writers. Oh, and the edits sometimes bordered on ridiculous. But even 'One Piece' was watchable in my opinion. Then again, as someone who watched DIC's hackup of Saint Seiya, virtually everything looks A-grade compared to that.

[D Dubbs]

They probably shouldn't have ended the PUSA/4Kids Pokemon Partnership since that's, IIRC, when this major downfall began.

The way I understand it, 4Kids didn't want to stop dubbing Pokemon. PUSA took the property away from them.

Everything else you said seems pretty reasonable, though.


I actually don't think the dubs are too bad, all things considering, they just needed better writers. Oh, and the edits sometimes bordered on ridiculous. But even 'One Piece' was watchable in my opinion. Then again, as someone who watched DIC's hackup of Saint Seiya, virtually everything looks A-grade compared to that.

Yeah, I don't find their dubs unwatchable either. As far as Pokemon goes, the translations were almost always accurate. Yu-Gi-Oh!...eh, not so much, but at least 4Kids realized that it was a more 'serious' property and kept out bad puns and other jokes of the sort (for the most part, anyway). And from the few episodes of Sonic X that I've seen...it seems to have a pretty good dub as well.

[J'onn J'onzz]

The way I understand it, 4Kids didn't want to stop dubbing Pokemon. PUSA took the property away from them.

Everything else you said seems pretty reasonable, though.



Yeah, I don't find their dubs unwatchable either. As far as Pokemon goes, the translations were almost always accurate. Yu-Gi-Oh!...eh, not so much, but at least 4Kids realized that it was a more 'serious' property and kept out bad puns and other jokes of the sort (for the most part, anyway). And from the few episodes of Sonic X that I've seen...it seems to have a pretty good dub as well.
The thing is, they don't have Pokemon anymore, Yu-Gi-Oh! is over (though GX is still going, a lot of people don't like it as much as the original) and the rest of their series are either finished or aborted for some reason or another. It's just embarrassing the way they program their block. They have more episodes of Kinnikuman Nisei. They ordered Toei to make another season, then only aired 13 episodes of it. There are MORE episodes just sitting around undubbed. And Magical DoReMi. What happened there? They have a bunch of episodes sitting around undubbed with it, too. Tokyo Mew Mew, I understand that the Japanese hated it so much that they wouldn't allow 4kids to dub any more, same with F-Zero. It's just embarrassing how they're just given up on all their shows. The block is just dead air, yet it could be airing new material. They botched up their whole company by poorly dubbing their shows, and just not airing stuff (they have two unaired mew mew episodes dubbed, an unaired episode of F-Zero, I'm assuming they have some Pretty Cure dubbed...) They need to get some quality control, and maybe then they can salvage their company, instead of just relying on reruns of the few products of theirs that did succeed, such as Yu-Gi-Oh!

[D Dubbs]

The thing is, they don't have Pokemon anymore, Yu-Gi-Oh! is over (though GX is still going, a lot of people don't like it as much as the original) and the rest of their series are either finished or aborted for some reason or another. It's just embarrassing the way they program their block. They have more episodes of Kinnikuman Nisei. They ordered Toei to make another season, then only aired 13 episodes of it. There are MORE episodes just sitting around undubbed. And Magical DoReMi. What happened there? They have a bunch of episodes sitting around undubbed with it, too. Tokyo Mew Mew, I understand that the Japanese hated it so much that they wouldn't allow 4kids to dub any more, same with F-Zero. It's just embarrassing how they're just given up on all their shows. The block is just dead air, yet it could be airing new material. They botched up their whole company by poorly dubbing their shows, and just not airing stuff (they have two unaired mew mew episodes dubbed, an unaired episode of F-Zero, I'm assuming they have some Pretty Cure dubbed...) They need to get some quality control, and maybe then they can salvage their company, instead of just relying on reruns of the few products of theirs that did succeed, such as Yu-Gi-Oh!

Ah, this is the type of response I like, rather than "4Kids. NeEDs tO dI."

Yes, it's true their lack of management seems to be rather prominent, as of late. I'm certainly not arguing against that. I just don't approve of people saying that 4Kids needs to disappear off the face of the Earth, when they are capable of producing good things. That's all.

[River26]

It's true that their leadership skills isn't up to par with FUNimation, Bandai Entertainment, Geneon Entertainment, ADV or VIZ and their voice actor selection. But still without them. We would never have heard Pokemon in the first place. Seeing as I'm still a Pokemon fan (which now I only buy the movie DVDs as buying each single episodic DVD would be a pain lol). Well, this until Pokemon USA took the rights away from 4Kids to the newest Pokemon series ^^. Daimond and Pearl.

[Jacob T. Paschal]

It's true that their leadership skills isn't up to par with FUNimation, Bandai Entertainment, Geneon Entertainment, ADV or VIZ and their voice actor selection. But still without them. We would never have heard Pokemon in the first place. Seeing as I'm still a Pokemon fan (which now I only buy the movie DVDs as buying each single episodic DVD would be a pain lol). Well, this until Pokemon USA took the rights away from 4Kids to the newest Pokemon series ^^. Daimond and Pearl.

As I heard it 4Kids was asking for far too much money and PUSA couldn't pay up so they took the series into their own hands.

[D Dubbs]

As I heard it 4Kids was asking for far too much money and PUSA couldn't pay up so they took the series into their own hands.

...What?

Why would 4Kids be selling the Pokemon license to PUSA? I'd imagine it'd work the other way around.

[Jacob T. Paschal]

...What?

Why would 4Kids be selling the Pokemon license to PUSA? I'd imagine it'd work the other way around.

You're misreading my post. I was saying that 4Kids was asking for an increasinly large amount of money to dub the show each season and this was bankrupting PUSA so they didn't renew their contract and PUSA went with TAJ, or something similar to that.

[D Dubbs]

You're misreading my post. I was saying that 4Kids was asking for an increasinly large amount of money to dub the show each season and this was bankrupting PUSA so they didn't renew their contract and PUSA went with TAJ, or something similar to that.

I still don't understand why 4Kids would need to get money from PUSA to dub the show. I've never heard this theory before, so I'm interested: What role did PUSA have with the dubbing of the anime while 4Kids had it?

[Jacob T. Paschal]

I still don't understand why 4Kids would need to get money from PUSA to dub the show.

Like I should've said earlier, this should be taken with a grain of salt, unless we can confirm it.

Maybe they were charging too much for studio employees?

[D Dubbs]

Like I should've said earlier, this should be taken with a grain of salt, unless we can confirm it.


Ah, okay.

Well, thanks for trying to explain. This is an issue that still puzzles me to this day.

[Master Moron]

4Kids has never cared about bringing quality shows to kids. All they care about is money, and now they're losing it.

Oh, I'm sure they're under the impression that the shows they produce are quality shows. They are pretty delusional, after all.


The thing is the TMNT show got away with far more stuff than 4Kids' liscenced franchises. I mean Leo decapitated Shredder on screen for gawd sake! Sure it was just an Utrom exo-skeleton but we didn't know that!


I really wish people would stop mentioning that scene as an example of how cool the show is. That scene was cool for about three seconds, then it turned cheesy when his body got up and started walking without a head.

As I've said before, my thoughts on 4K!ds Ninja Turtles are that it has a great story, but horrible production values. As much as I love the story, I can't say that the voices, writing, or music does it justice.


I actually don't think the dubs are too bad, all things considering, they just needed better writers. Oh, and the edits sometimes bordered on ridiculous. But even 'One Piece' was watchable in my opinion. Then again, as someone who watched DIC's hackup of Saint Seiya, virtually everything looks A-grade compared to that.

You forgot the fact that their dubs changed the music and had horrible voice direction. Gee, is there anything that their dubs did right?


The thing is, they don't have Pokemon anymore, Yu-Gi-Oh! is over (though GX is still going, a lot of people don't like it as much as the original) and the rest of their series are either finished or aborted for some reason or another. It's just embarrassing the way they program their block. They have more episodes of Kinnikuman Nisei. They ordered Toei to make another season, then only aired 13 episodes of it. There are MORE episodes just sitting around undubbed. And Magical DoReMi. What happened there? They have a bunch of episodes sitting around undubbed with it, too. Tokyo Mew Mew, I understand that the Japanese hated it so much that they wouldn't allow 4kids to dub any more, same with F-Zero. It's just embarrassing how they're just given up on all their shows. The block is just dead air, yet it could be airing new material. They botched up their whole company by poorly dubbing their shows, and just not airing stuff (they have two unaired mew mew episodes dubbed, an unaired episode of F-Zero, I'm assuming they have some Pretty Cure dubbed...) They need to get some quality control, and maybe then they can salvage their company, instead of just relying on reruns of the few products of theirs that did succeed, such as Yu-Gi-Oh!

You know, I don't understand how 4K!ds cannot realize that they're doing something wrong when Japanese companies are pulling the rights to their properties. I mean, when the companies you're doing business with are getting pissed off at you, common sense should tell you that you're doing something wrong.

[Gokou Ruri]

As I've said before, my thoughts on 4K!ds Ninja Turtles are that it has a great story, but horrible production values. As much as I love the story, I can't say the voices, writing, or music does it justice. Isn't the writing pretty much the story, though?


You forgot the fact that their dubs changed the music and had horrible voice direction. Gee, is there anything that their dubs did right? Changed music isn't automatically a bad thing.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Isn't the writing pretty much the story, though?

Writing is more about the dialogue. You can have a great story, but mess it up with crappy dialogue. Then again, I never really had any problems with the dialogue in TMNT. It's not award winning, but it was decent.


Changed music isn't automatically a bad thing.

Nine times out of ten it is.

Besides, the music is chosen to capture the feel of the show. Changing the music typically results in changing the feel. Sometimes it can work, but that is usually when the new music is at least similar to the original music.

[Undrave]

About 4Kids asking too much money of PUSA...maybe they just wanted a bigger cut of the Pokémon profit pie and PUSA said no?

about music...

The thing is they HAVE to change the music when they make cuts, because then they wouldn't be timed correctly.

But there is way to make better music that fits better instead of relying on the same thing over and over.

Anime dubbing company should adopt the Japanese model and make music good enough to actually SELL as a CD and thus make profit. In Japan shows are REALLY advertisement because they're placed on the network following the same principal: company have to pay the network for the airtime of their productions. Thus its in their best interest for the shows to be marketable and thus sell LOTS of derived products. Hence why Anime music is great, it's made to be sold on its own.

The TAJ VAs can do some great acting, as proven by dubs like Slayers, even if they don't have great range of voices, but the 'funny voices' just need to stop -.-

[Master Moron]

Isn't the writing pretty much the story, though?


Well, I suppose I should have said dialogue rather than writing. Though, I suppose most of the credit for the story can go to Eastman and Laird, since the show is mostly based on their comics. I'm not sure how much credit 4K!ds writing staff should get for the story.


Changed music isn't automatically a bad thing.

Yes, it is. You can't retain the emotional impact of a scene if you change the music. It also demonstrates that they have no respect for the source material, which is a bad thing in and of itself.


The thing is they HAVE to change the music when they make cuts, because then they wouldn't be timed correctly.


That is simply not true. Shows like Yu Yu Hakusho, Kenshin, and Sailor Moon S had a lot of edits when they aired on Cartoon Network and they still kept the music. Granted, those shows had less edits than most 4K!ds shows, but that just demonstrates how many unnecessary edits 4K!ds makes. It's not like 4K!ds just tones down the violence, they swap scenes around and splice episodes together for seemingly no reason. Honestly, if that was the real reason that they changed the music, don't you think 4K!ds would have said so? I remember reading an interview with one of the music people for 4K!ds and he said the music was changed for "artistic and marketing reasons". Whatever the hell that means.


Anime dubbing company should adopt the Japanese model and make music good enough to actually SELL as a CD and thus make profit. In Japan shows are REALLY advertisement because they're placed on the network following the same principal: company have to pay the network for the airtime of their productions. Thus its in their best interest for the shows to be marketable and thus sell LOTS of derived products. Hence why Anime music is great, it's made to be sold on its own.


No, no, no. That's the worst thing that can possibly happen. I don't want to see anime cds sold in stores that have a bunch of American music on them. That just further Americanizes the product and divides the fanbase.

[D Dubbs]

Honestly, if that was the real reason that they changed the music, don't you think 4K!ds would have said so?

They did.


In an interview somewhere, a 4Kids rep said that it was easier/quicker to rescore One Piece than it would be to "repair" many scenes where the music wouldn't flow correctly after a cut.

[Jacob T. Paschal]

They did.

What happened to the comment about the dub YGO music being better? I was about to rip you a new one! :p

[RomanMack]

No, no, no. That's the worst thing that can possibly happen. I don't want to see anime cds sold in stores that have a bunch of American music on them. That just further Americanizes the product and divides the fanbase.But Japan puts in J-Pop just to advertise a certain single or whatnot, so it wouldn't be much of a diffrence if an American company does the same as well. They're going for the same goal: Advertise a song.

Like, say, I doubt Pokemon's First Movie soundtrack would'a sold as much copies if it included only the Japanese BGM. All the cartoon movies at that time had their own soundtrack full of popular american songs at that time, so it was a given they'd do the same with Pokemon, which was one of the most popular cartoons back then.

[Undrave]

You can retain the dramatic impact of a scene when changing the music. You just have to redo the music following the intent of the original. American composers are just as capable of providing dramatic music than Japanese ones. It's not that changing music is bad in itself, its the music they replace it with that sucks. If they were to try to sell the music by itself they would have to work harder on making it marketable.

Also the taste in music on each side of the pacific is not the same. Hence the 'marketing' comment. It's also cheaper on the dubbers when they don't have to pay royalties for the music and don't have to 'repair' it as mentionned.

[Jacob T. Paschal]

The thing is there's no reason to replace the music (that is actually orchastrated) with crap made on a computer.

[Gokou Ruri]

Yes, it is. You can't retain the emotional impact of a scene if you change the music. It also demonstrates that they have no respect for the source material, which is a bad thing in and of Like Undrave said, Americans composers are just as capable as Japanese ones. I prefer Sailor Moon's English music to the Japanese one, actually. The transformation music was more "uppy" so it got you more energetic (while the Japanese one was pretty calm and mellow in the first lot of episodes), same with the attack music. Along with stuff like She's Got the Power and Carry On (which felt more natural than Miracle Romance did during the fight against Queen Beryl, if you ask me.)

[Jave]

Isn't the writing pretty much the story, though?Since I've seen plenty of shows with separate writing and story credits, I'm gonna say no.

[D Dubbs]

What happened to the comment about the dub YGO music being better? I was about to rip you a new one! :p

Did a little research and found that I was wrong on that. But yes, I do like the dub music, although it's a little unfair for me to compare it to the original, having only watched around three episodes of the Japanese version.


The thing is there's no reason to replace the music (that is actually orchastrated) with crap made on a computer.

I believe most of the background music in Japan is synthesized by a computer as well, at least for TV shows. However, for anime movies, orchestral music is more common.

[Undrave]

I believe most of the background music in Japan is synthesized by a computer as well, at least for TV shows. However, for anime movies, orchestral music is more common.

They CAN be released in orchastrated version on CD however.

But yeah...BGM music is done with computer...only they use more 'instrument' sound ya know?

[EroSennin]

4kids enacting anti-hostel takeover measures .http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070816/4kids_entertainment_shareholder_rights.html?.v=2.

Seems like they know the end is coming.

[D Dubbs]

4kids enacting anti-hostel takeover measures .http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070816/4kids_entertainment_shareholder_rights.html?.v=2.


Can someone please explain that article (and more importantly, what it means for 4Kids)? I'm not too good with understanding the stock market and such...

[Elrohir]

In response to what many have said against 4Kids haters, I believe they have legitimate complaints, though they sometimes express those complaints in less than civil ways, but they are nonetheless legitimate.

No, not all their shows are "unwatchable" and yes, Pokemon was a good dub. I believe most of the people who worked on Pokemon grew to love the show and did in fact want to make it good. But even in Pokemon the poor business ethic of the company shines through. 4Kids wanted too much money and lost the show.

And as an amateur video editor myself, it seems clear that whenever they changed the music it was because they didn't want to bother trying to make the original score fit the edits. That's not always a bad thing, but if the new score is not as good as the old one they should take a step back and re-analyze how they do it. Again a poor ethic.

[Rolling Cloud]

Can someone please explain that article (and more importantly, what it means for 4Kids)? I'm not too good with understanding the stock market and such...

In simple terms, 4kids is trying to make it so that no other company can overtake them and buy them out. :P

[D Dubbs]

4Kids wanted too much money and lost the show.

That's only an unconfirmed rumor. We don't know what happened behind the scenes.


That's not always a bad thing, but if the new score is not as good as the old one they should take a step back and re-analyze how they do it. Again a poor ethic.Well, what people think of the score is a matter of opinion. You can't say that it's a poor work ethic based on an opinion.



In simple terms, 4kids is trying to make it so that no other company can overtake them and buy them out. :P

Thanks for explaining.

[Undrave]

Well, what people think of the score is a matter of opinion. You can't say that it's a poor work ethic based on an opinion.

Though the ammount of effort put into the music could be considered part of the work ethic. If the original had 8 tracks worth of instruments and included a chorus and its replace with 4 tracks of generic ring-tone worth 'music' then it's not just a matter of opinion.

You know it's bad when you prefer the DenLiner chime to a BGM ^o^

[Movie06]

In simple terms, 4kids is trying to make it so that no other company can overtake them and buy them out. :P

But what would happen if some comapny did overtake them and buy them out?

[Rolling Cloud]

But what would happen if some comapny did overtake them and buy them out?

Then, they'd be out of luck, I suppose. All the report stated was that they were trying to set up protection in case of Hostile takeovers. If another company did manage to overtake them, then 4kids would've failed and a new company can start raking in the money that 4kids would've brought in.

[D Dubbs]

Though the ammount of effort put into the music could be considered part of the work ethic. If the original had 8 tracks worth of instruments and included a chorus and its replace with 4 tracks of generic ring-tone worth 'music' then it's not just a matter of opinion.

You know it's bad when you prefer the DenLiner chime to a BGM ^o^

Well in the case of 4Kids, they use computer-synthesized music, which is what most of the Japanese originals used. So as far as effort goes, 4Kids is on the same track.

If you compare the music any further, it's pretty much a matter of opinion.

[Undrave]

Well in the case of 4Kids, they use computer-synthesized music, which is what most of the Japanese production teams used. So as far as effort goes, 4Kids is on the same track.

True but there is various level of computer music. What I meant is that if the original got like 8 virtual instruments playing at the same time and the replacement got only 4 then the impact isn't the same. Get me?

[D Dubbs]

True but there is various level of computer music. What I meant is that if the original got like 8 virtual instruments playing at the same time and the replacement got only 4 then the impact isn't the same. Get me?

Eh...I guess. That's a really hard comparison to do, though, especially with all the various sound combinations that synthesizers can produce.

[Movie06]

Then, they'd be out of luck, I suppose. All the report stated was that they were trying to set up protection in case of Hostile takeovers. If another company did manage to overtake them, then 4kids would've failed and a new company can start raking in the money that 4kids would've brought in.

Well, I wouldn't mind it if Gregg Hoffman's company took over 4Kids, that is if he was still alive and had an interest in the Anime business.

[Arxane]

Well in the case of 4Kids, they use computer-synthesized music, which is what most of the Japanese originals used. So as far as effort goes, 4Kids is on the same track.

If you compare the music any further, it's pretty much a matter of opinion.

Correct, and my opinion is that 4Kids does not know how to compose its music properly.

From all of the 4Kids' shows I've watched (mostly One Piece), there is one big difference between how most Japanese composers and 4Kids create their music. The Japanese composers create music pieces, a.k.a. songs you can list on a soundtrack. These songs set the overall tone for a specific scene or several scenes, and can often be identified individually. 4Kids, on the other hand, creates music jumbles, or a mish-mash of tunes that try to conform to every single frame in the scene, if not every action in every frame. Occasionally they'll come up with songs that can be listened to separately, but most of the time their music is a collection of amalgamated unrelated tunes that run nonstop from beginning to end (hence the absence of silence in a 4Kids soundtrack).

Synthesized music can be enjoyable - hell, I enjoy the Bourne soundtracks, which is a lot of synthesized music - but 4Kids' music just doesn't cut it compared to other, better examples of the genre.

[Jacob T. Paschal]

Correct, and my opinion is that 4Kids does not know how to compose its music properly.

From all of the 4Kids' shows I've watched (mostly One Piece), there is one big difference between how most Japanese composers and 4Kids create their music. The Japanese composers create music pieces, a.k.a. songs you can list on a soundtrack. These songs set the overall tone for a specific scene or several scenes, and can often be identified individually. 4Kids, on the other hand, creates music jumbles, or a mish-mash of tunes that try to conform to every single frame in the scene, if not every action in every frame. Occasionally they'll come up with songs that can be listened to separately, but most of the time their music is a collection of amalgamated unrelated tunes that run nonstop from beginning to end (hence the absence of silence in a 4Kids soundtrack).

Synthesized music can be enjoyable - hell, I enjoy the Bourne soundtracks, which is a lot of synthesized music - but 4Kids' music just doesn't cut it compared to other, better examples of the genre.

Not to mention One Piece has an epic soundtrack in Japan.

[Master Moron]

They did.

Unfortunately, "an interview somewhere" isn't a source. In this interview with Al Kahn he mentions changing the music to make it appeal to a Western audience: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interview/2005-04-24/alfred-r-kahn In this interview, a writer and producer from 4K!ds says they change the music for "artistic and commercial reasons": http://www.animeboredom.co.uk/anime-articles/80/ Neither interview mentions the edits as a reason for changing the music.


But Japan puts in J-Pop just to advertise a certain single or whatnot, so it wouldn't be much of a diffrence if an American company does the same as well. They're going for the same goal: Advertise a song.

Like, say, I doubt Pokemon's First Movie soundtrack would'a sold as much copies if it included only the Japanese BGM. All the cartoon movies at that time had their own soundtrack full of popular american songs at that time, so it was a given they'd do the same with Pokemon, which was one of the most popular cartoons back then.

I have no idea how many soundtracks the first Pokemon movie sold. But, it can't be doubted that the fact that it had the name Pokemon on it contributed heavily to the sales. The thing is I don't think people should be associating Japanese cartoons with Britney Spears and N'Sync or whoever was on the Pokemon soundtrack. I'd be kind of pissed off if they inserted J-Pop all over The Simpsons and South Park in Japan. It's just wrong on so many levels.

[D Dubbs]

Unfortunately, "an interview somewhere" isn't a source. In this interview with Al Kahn he mentions changing the music to make it appeal to a Western audience: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interview/2005-04-24/alfred-r-kahn In this interview, a writer and producer from 4K!ds says they change the music for "artistic and commercial reasons": http://www.animeboredom.co.uk/anime-articles/80/ Neither interview mentions the edits as a reason for changing the music.

Well I wasn't the one who found the source, so I guess I can't argue with you there.


I'd be kind of pissed off if they inserted J-Pop all over The Simpsons and South Park in Japan. It's just wrong on so many levels.

Well, they do add J-pop openings and closings to American shows occasionally, such as Ben 10 (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=195446).

Guess you're pissed off now, huh? :sweat:

[Master Moron]

You can retain the dramatic impact of a scene when changing the music. You just have to redo the music following the intent of the original.

How would an American composer no the intent of the original? It's not like they have the Japanese director there telling them what mood the scene is supposed to invoke


Also the taste in music on each side of the pacific is not the same. Hence the 'marketing' comment. It's also cheaper on the dubbers when they don't have to pay royalties for the music and don't have to 'repair' it as mentionned.

I'm well aware that Americans don't like J-Pop. But, instrumental music used as bgm is pretty much universal. Besides, I don't think the music should be used merely as a marketing tool. Yes, marketing is important, but it should not be the sole purpose of the music chosen.


Like Undrave said, Americans composers are just as capable as Japanese ones. I prefer Sailor Moon's English music to the Japanese one, actually. The transformation music was more "uppy" so it got you more energetic (while the Japanese one was pretty calm and mellow in the first lot of episodes), same with the attack music. Along with stuff like She's Got the Power and Carry On (which felt more natural than Miracle Romance did during the fight against Queen Beryl, if you ask me.)

I have no idea what any of that has to do with anything I'm saying. So, the transformation music was more energetic during the first season. So what? What makes you think that the creative staff who made the show think that the transformation is supposed to be more energetic? I might feel differently if the original director was unsatisfied with the original musical score, and supervised the creation of a new musical score, but that's a whole nother can of worms.

[Gokou Ruri]

The thing is I don't think people should be associating Japanese cartoons with Britney Spears and N'Sync or whoever was on the Pokemon soundtrack. Why not? I loved Billy Crawford's take on the Pokemon theme. :sweat:


I'd be kind of pissed off if they inserted J-Pop all over The Simpsons and South Park in Japan. It's just wrong on so many levels. They do. Lots of Japanese versions of foreign shows have J-Pop/Rock themes.

[D Dubbs]

Why not? I loved Billy Crawford's take on the Pokemon theme. :sweat:


You're not alone, my friend. That was probably my favorite part of Movie 1.


How would an American composer no the intent of the original? It's not like they have the Japanese director there telling them what mood the scene is supposed to invoke

I have no idea what any of that has to do with anything I'm saying. So, the transformation music was more energetic during the first season. So what? What makes you think that the creative staff who made the show think that the transformation is supposed to be more energetic? I might feel differently if the original director was unsatisfied with the original musical score, and supervised the creation of a new musical score, but that's a whole nother can of worms.

Obviously, you feel that everything needs to be kept in its original state. That's perfectly acceptable. But here's what it really comes down to:

Some people believe that dubs need to follow every exact detail of the original version. Some people believe that the dub can take liberties from the original version.

Really, it's just a matter of opinion, and there's no use in arguing over it.

[Master Moron]

Well, they do add J-pop openings and closings to American shows occasionally, such as Ben 10 (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=195446).

Guess you're pissed off now, huh? :sweat:

Not really. I really don't mind that much if the openings and closings are changed if they're the only things that are changed. As long as the bgm is all kept it's not too big of a deal. Now, if they play J-Pop constantly throughout the episodes, then yeah, that would kind of piss me off.

[Space Cadet]

Not really. I really don't mind that much if the openings and closings are changed if they're the only things that are changed. As long as the bgm is all kept it's not too big of a deal.

Okay, so you don't mind when the same thing happens here with Prince of Tennis, Ronin Warriors, Mobile Suit Gundam, Z Gundam or Naruto for the first 52 episodes?

[The Overlord]

I thought that 4Kids changed the music, because they would have to pay the Japanese companies for use of the original music. So they just their own music because it is cheaper and 4kids prides itself on cheapness.

[Master Moron]

Why not? I loved Billy Crawford's take on the Pokemon theme. :sweat:


Oh, my God, there's so many reasons. I really could spend an hour coming up with reasons and still not think of all the reasons.

The first reason is that people associate an anime with something that it was never supposed to be associated with in the first place. Why should being a Pokemon fan be associated with being a Billy Crawford fan?

The second reason is that it divides the fanbase. There's the normal Pokemon fans who like the Billy Crawford theme and the geeky fans who like the Japanese theme. Whereas, if the movie kept all of the original bgm it would simply be a take it or leave it situation.

A third reason is that it further exemplifies the marketing tactics of the franchise. One of the largest criticisms of the Pokemon movie when it came out was that it was just an ad to sell merchandise. The use of pop songs to sell a soundtrack just further exemplify that.

A fourth reason is that eliminates Japanese elements of the movie. While watching a Japanese movie it is nice to experience certain Japanese elements, including music. Part of the reason I like watching Japanese movies is to experience the Japanese elements in it. When you eleminate that part of the reason I enjoy watching them is gone.

Do I have to go on? Because to be honest, I really don't want to. This is an especially difficult argument for me to make since I'm not a Pokemon fan and I'm not very passionate about what happens to it. Nevertheless, my feelings remain the same.


Obviously, you feel that everything needs to be kept in its original state. That's perfectly acceptable. But here's what it really comes down to:

Some people believe that dubs need to follow every exact detail of the original version. Some people believe that the dub can take liberties from the original version.

Really, it's just a matter of opinion, and there's no use in arguing over it.

No, that's not what it comes down to at all. There's a difference between taking liberties and changing 100% of the background music.


Okay, so you don't mind when the same thing happens here with Prince of Tennis, Ronin Warriors, Mobile Suit Gundam, Z Gundam or Naruto for the first 52 episodes?

Well, I would prefer if they kept the original theme songs. But, it's not really the most important thing in the world. I watched most of those shows when they aired on Cartoon Network and I really didn't have a big problem with them. I remember stating multiple times that I actually prefered the American version of the Prince of Tennis theme song to the Japanese version. Now, keep in mind that in principal I think the original Japanese opening should be kept. But, if the opening is the only thing that is changed then I can learn to live with it.

Of course, keep in mind that there's a difference between changing the openings on the DVD versions and changing the openings on broadcast versions.

[D Dubbs]

Oh, my God, there's so many reasons. I really could spend an hour coming up with reasons and still not think of all the reasons.

The first reason is that people associate an anime with something that it was never supposed to be associated with in the first place. Why should being a Pokemon fan be associated with being a Billy Crawford fan?

The second reason is that it divides the fanbase. There's the normal Pokemon fans who like the Billy Crawford theme and the geeky fans who like the Japanese theme. Whereas, if the movie kept all of the original bgm it would simply be a take it or leave it situation.

A third reason is that it further exemplifies the marketing tactics of the franchise. One of the largest criticisms of the Pokemon movie when it came out was that it was just an ad to sell merchandise. The use of pop songs to sell a soundtrack just further exemplify that.

A fourth reason is that eliminates Japanese elements of the movie. While watching a Japanese movie it is nice to experience certain Japanese elements, including music. Part of the reason I like watching Japanese movies is to experience the Japanese elements in it. When you eleminate that part of the reason I enjoy watching them is gone.

Do I have to go on? Because to be honest, I really don't want to. This is an especially difficult argument for me to make since I'm not a Pokemon fan. Nevertheless, my feelings remain the same.

Whoa. How can you say that when you just posted this?


Not really. I really don't mind that much if the openings and closings are changed if they're the only things that are changed. As long as the bgm is all kept it's not too big of a deal. Now, if they play J-Pop constantly throughout the episodes, then yeah, that would kind of piss me off.

Shouldn't it work both ways?


No, that's not what it comes down to at all. There's a difference between taking liberties and changing 100% of the background music.

How so? Changing 100% of the background music is certainly taking a liberty. I never said they had to be small liberties.

[Master Moron]

Whoa. How can you say that when you just posted this?



Shouldn't it work both ways?

Shouldn't what work both ways? I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Oh, I see you were just talking about the opening to the Pokemon movie. Well, if the opening was the only thing that was changed in the Pokemon movie, it would be another story entirely, but it wasn't.


How so? Changing 100% of the background music is certainly taking a liberty. I never said they had to be small liberties.

Well, if you're taking that many liberties one might wonder why you should even dub a show in the first place? Why not just make a new show so you can make it whatever way you want to make it? Why take a foreign show and twist it around until it's no longer the same show?

[D Dubbs]

Shouldn't what work both ways? I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Oh, I see you were just talking about the opening to the Pokemon movie. Well, if the opening was the only thing that was changed in the Pokemon movie, it would be another story entirely, but it wasn't.

Well, it's not like 4Kids was inserting songs from their soundtrack left and right. Besides for the ending credits, there was only one additional song they added in the movie other than the main theme.


Well, if you're taking that many liberties one might wonder why you should even dub a show in the first place? Why not just make a new show so you can make it whatever way you want to make it? Why take a foreign show and twist it around until it's no longer the same show?Right. That's what I was going for. 4Kids tries to remake most of their foreign properties in their own style. You're either okay with that, or you aren't. And most otaku aren't.

[Space Cadet]

Well, if you're taking that many liberties one might wonder why you should even dub a show in the first place? Why not just make a new show so you can make it whatever way you want to make it? Why take a foreign show and twist it around until it's no longer the same show?

Cause even after all that, it's still cheaper to import a foreign show than to make one from scratch.

Look at Harmony Gold. They combined three unrelated anime series to make Robotech. It became successful.

They even took your advice. They made Robotech: Shadow Chronicles to continue the story beyond the TV series. It was an original production. It did so well, that another movie is being made for 2009.

Voltron is another one that's successful.

[Jave]

They do. Lots of Japanese versions of foreign shows have J-Pop/Rock themes.Not nearly as much as most people may think. Heck, doing search on Youtube I find lots of Japanese opening that keep the original theme song (albeit dubbed to Japanese).

[RomanMack]

A third reason is that it further exemplifies the marketing tactics of the franchise. One of the largest criticisms of the Pokemon movie when it came out was that it was just an ad to sell merchandise. The use of pop songs to sell a soundtrack just further exemplify that.Well, like I said, most big animated movies get a soundtrack to sell in stores with whatever-music-is-popular at the time. Pokemon was just following suit. So it's not really marketing anymore than, say, Rugrats first movie did with it's soundtrack.

[Undrave]

American kids didn't go see Pokémon the Movie for the Japanese-ness of it. They went to see a Pokémon movie.

In fact it's well known that most Americans don't like to go see foreign movies. Why do you think 4Kids feels the need to make it look like their shows 'Aren't from Japan anymore'.

A good example of a good BGM replacement music with effort put into it, to me, is 'Run Around' from Digimon 02. That song was a fitting battle song in the show AND you can listen to the full version no problem. It's on my mp3 player actually.

Sadly 02 was an exception in term of musics rather than the norm.

[Movie06]

You know, if a company wants to make their own BGM music for an Anime, go with "Hello Zepp" by Charlie Clouser, it's the theme song from the movie Saw. You know, funny enough; that would've made a good alternative song for Moon Revenge for the Sailor Moon R movie.

[Gokou Ruri]

The first reason is that people associate an anime with something that it was never supposed to be associated with in the first place. Why should being a Pokemon fan be associated with being a Billy Crawford fan? No different than a show inserting an J-Pop/Rock song in the original, really.


The second reason is that it divides the fanbase. There's the normal Pokemon fans who like the Billy Crawford theme and the geeky fans who like the Japanese theme. Whereas, if the movie kept all of the original bgm it would simply be a take it or leave it situation. Pokemon is a children's franchise. It's mainly enjoyed by children. The "geeky fans" are people like me in the 20s who still play the games and possibly watch the show. They're in the minority, and if you take into account the ones who prefer/know of the Japanese version, they're even less. I don't think dividing the fanbase is much of an issue.


A fourth reason is that eliminates Japanese elements of the movie. While watching a Japanese movie it is nice to experience certain Japanese elements, including music. Part of the reason I like watching Japanese movies is to experience the Japanese elements in it. When you eleminate that part of the reason I enjoy watching them is gone. I could understand that if it were something like Grave of the Fireflies, but this is Pokemon. Pokemon is pretty universal when it comes to culture. Most of the characters already look Caucasian, and outside some random text and the occasional appearance of riceballs, there's nothing really Japanese about their world (sans the names).

[Undrave]

Beside a Fanbase can divide itself on its own XD no company needs to be involved.

[Master Moron]

Cause even after all that, it's still cheaper to import a foreign show than to make one from scratch.


That pretty much sums up why 4K!ds sucks so much. Instead of making their own shows, they import shows and butcher them. So, basically if you're an American, you don't get to see the original anime and you don't get a good American show either. You just get a mess.


Well, like I said, most big animated movies get a soundtrack to sell in stores with whatever-music-is-popular at the time. Pokemon was just following suit. So it's not really marketing anymore than, say, Rugrats first movie did with it's soundtrack.

The Rugrats movie was also loathed by critics. I don't know why you'd want anything to be compared with that.


American kids didn't go see Pokémon the Movie for the Japanese-ness of it. They went to see a Pokémon movie.

In fact it's well known that most Americans don't like to go see foreign movies. Why do you think 4Kids feels the need to make it look like their shows 'Aren't from Japan anymore'.


That's all the more reason why it's necessary to keep the original Japanese music. Kids aren't going to seek out the original Japanese language versions. The English dub is the only version they're likely to see, so it's important that the element of the background music is kept.


No different than a show inserting an J-Pop/Rock song in the original, really.


Except that j-Pop has been associated with anime for as long as I've been alive. It's not creating an association that didn't previously exist.

[RomanMack]

I believe I read that Rugrats' first movie earn the most money outta any 2-d animated film to date. So while the critics may have hated it, it still earned a hefty amount of money. And really, that's all that could matter with some movie makers.

Regardless, the point is alot of animated films had soundtracks filled with popular songs. Of course they'd want to do it with Pokemon, given that it was a top kids-show back then.

Really, they're gonna do what gives them more money.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

I believe I read that Rugrats' first movie earn the most money outta any 2-d animated film to date. So while the critics may have hated it, it still earned a hefty amount of money. And really, that's all that could matter with some movie makers.


..... The Rugrats movie earned $100 million domestic and $40 million international, which doesn't even come close to The Lion King's $328 million domestic and $455 million international. That's less than 1/5th what it made.

For 2-d animated films, aside from The Lion King, the highest grossing 2-d film animated film of all time, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, Tarzan, The Simpson's Movie (already), Lilo and Stitch, Pocahontas, The Little Mermaid, and The Prince of Egypt all earned more in the domestic market.

Once you take into account the film's terrible international gross, if you look at worldwide grosses, then The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Hercules, The Emperor's New Groove, Pokemon: Myuutwo Strikes Back, Brother Bear, Atlantis, Spirited Away and Princess Mononoke have all made more money as well.

This is just taken from a list of films released since 1980.

So no, I don't think that Rugrats was some huge overwhelming success, although it did well as far as movies based on TV shows go.

[RomanMack]

Oh, then that damn list someone showed me on here was bogus, then. :sweat:

[Jave]

Oh, then that damn list someone showed me on here was bogus, then. :sweat:That list wasn't bogus. The list you saw listed animated theatrical movies that were based on already existing TV series, in which Rugrats did turn out first. Of course, said record was broken a few weeks ago when The Simpsons Movie came out.

[Movie06]

That list wasn't bogus. The list you saw listed animated theatrical movies that were based on already existing TV series, in which Rugrats did turn out first. Of course, said record was broken a few weeks ago when The Simpsons Movie came out.

And rightfully so I might add, the Simpsons Movie is definately better than The Rugrats Movie.

[Master Moron]

I believe I read that Rugrats' first movie earn the most money outta any 2-d animated film to date. So while the critics may have hated it, it still earned a hefty amount of money. And really, that's all that could matter with some movie makers.

Regardless, the point is alot of animated films had soundtracks filled with popular songs. Of course they'd want to do it with Pokemon, given that it was a top kids-show back then.

Really, they're gonna do what gives them more money.

You seem to be saying "Most kids movies are just made to sell merchandise, so why shouldn't Pokemon"? One of the reasons the Pokemon movie got torn to shred by critics was because it was a two hour movie to sell toys. I'm not saying the Japanese version wasn't made to sell toys either, but you seem to be advocating altering the movie in order to sell more merchandise. I mean, they might as well digitally edit Pikachu into a Coca-Cola can if that's the only purpose for bringing the movie over here.

Look, I'm not saying that they shouldn't make any toys or merchandise based off of kids movies, but when you're actually changing parts of the movie in order to sell merchandise, then the movie becomes an advertisement, and kids deserve better than that.

[RomanMack]

You seem to be saying "Most kids movies are just made to sell merchandise, so why shouldn't Pokemon"? One of the reasons the Pokemon movie got torn to shred by critics was because it was a two hour movie to sell toys. I'm not saying the Japanese version wasn't made to sell toys either, but you seem to be advocating altering the movie in order to sell more merchandise. I mean, they might as well digitally edit Pikachu into a Coca-Cola can if that's the only purpose for bringing the movie over here.

Look, I'm not saying that they shouldn't make any toys or merchandise based off of kids movies, but when you're actually changing parts of the movie in order to sell merchandise, then the movie becomes an advertisement, and kids deserve better than that.And that they may do, but as I said, companies want money. And they'll try every little thing just to squeeze out more money.

Really, it may be wrong... But it was expected given that almost every other popular animated movies were getting their own soundtrack full of popular songs. More merchandicing = More money.

Besides, I'm not saying they should change the BGM in the actual movie. But releasing a soundtrack for the said movie with songs that were barely even in the movie is no big deal.