Crappy animated Movies (non-disney) [Archive]

Deltamon

02-11-2002, 12:45 PM

Now, be fair. The first Land Before Time was good-its the other 7 (8? 9? 900?!) ya gotta worry about.

Besides the one posted on the post subject thingie (It never should have existed!) I think I'll add The Tekken movie (you know you got issues when Roger the Kangaroo-who I LIKE, BTW-gets more backstory than King. That ain't right, j0). Hey, no one said Anime movies coudn't be mentioned!

The Pebble and the Penguin's another one high on the list, though I find the design of the leopard seal rather cool looking. Damn shame.

Finally...um, this one CGI Christmas special I saw once starring Casper the Ghost (name escapes me)-yup, the movie version of the ghost. Mainframe should be ashamed of themselves.

Clayface

02-11-2002, 12:48 PM

Yeah, I'll definitely put in a vote for Titan AE.

Borg4of3

02-11-2002, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by MTDiva

Yeah, anything with the phrase "The Land Before Time" in the title rates high on the painometer.

Mela

The sequels definately all sucked, but I always will have a place in my heart for the original!

I don't know how many people will hate me for this, but I was bored to death during all the Pokemon movies. I love Pokemon, and used to watch the shows, but I just couldn't stand the movies. Other than that, I'd also like to add Space Jam and Cool World.

James Harvey

02-11-2002, 12:59 PM

The Swan Princess and any sequels. Horrible acting, bad animation, ridiculous plots, and terrible animal sidekicks.

mbaker

02-11-2002, 02:23 PM

I've got some

Gobots: War Of The Rock Lords
Pound Puppies & The Ledgend of Big Paw
Scooby-Doo & The Ghoul School
Scooby-Doo & The Reluctant Warewolf
My Little Pony: The Movie
All Care Bares Movies
Felix The Cat: The Movie
Pinocchio In Space
Heavy Metal 2000
Cool World
The King & I

Blue Priestess

02-11-2002, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Borg4of3
The sequels definately all sucked, but I always will have a place in my heart for the original!

True. The endless string of sequels have diminished it a bit, but the original was good. It's hard to avoid lumping it with 2-478, though (and no, that second number's not a typo).

Mela

sun

02-11-2002, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by Cartman
How about any of the "Land Before Time" movies. They really suck. The first "Land Before Time" does not "suck" It is very well done, written, animated, music, and character development...the others were poor, yes, but the first was very good, at least in my opinion....Thanks, don't mean to differ, but on that first one, I think you are incorrect. Stuart

sun

02-11-2002, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by Clayface
Yeah, I'll definitely put in a vote for Titan AE.

NOt the greatest, but I wouldn't use" crappy" Great animation, some good music, all right, not the greatest, but a good effort compared to some...also it ended the career of Don Bluth....He produced some real good work, at a time, when there was not much else around......Stuart

Manhunter

02-11-2002, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by mbaker
I've got some

Gobots: War Of The Rock Lords

True,although the Rock Lords theme song at the end was kinda catchy.

Rock Lords!/Rocks that come alive/Rock Lords!/Fighting to survive/Living rocks with strength and might/Rising up to crush and fight/Rock Lords!/Powerful living rocks!

Scooby-Doo & The Ghoul School
Scooby-Doo & The Reluctant Warewolf

Scrappy alone makes them crap.

Deltamon

02-11-2002, 04:14 PM

A second solid vote to Heavy Metal 2000.

Back when I was studying in the Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdaale, our teacher gave us two DVDs to watch: that one and Gladiator. Even though I'd already seen Gladiator on the big screen, I definately got a kick to seeing it again with a very exited audience watching and adding to the Comodus-bashing (C'mon, he's the type of villain you like to laugh and mock his sexual fetishes at! Its fun!).

Then, they put Heavy Metal 2000, the one all the guys wanted to see 'cause it was all 'mature' and stuff.

I literally left the room, it was so horrible. Never in my whole life have I ever done that-and LIKED it! Artwise, it was like they were trying (and failing) to draw in a Gargoyles-like style, with sex, violence and bad metal music force-fed into the whole thing in hopes no one notices the rather weak plot behind it. And whoever found it cute to name the main character FAKK-2 definately doesn't get out much. But I digress.

Geez, you guys make me rant about alot of things...Deltamon sad :( :( :(

atf487

02-11-2002, 04:42 PM

Well, since I can't vote for Disney, Ill vote for rugrats. That show has really declined in quality. It used to be cool, around 10 years ago, with all the funny animation, but when they brought it back it just sucks now. Those movies have been some of the worst I have seen. Really, 2!!!!!

GL2k2

02-11-2002, 05:29 PM

ANTZ
Heavy Metal 2000
Rainbow Brite
Care Bears: The Movie (I actually saw this in theaters. My brother had to take me, I am in his debt to this day.)
Any of the ripoffs you find in Walmart or Kmart for Disney movies called Mulan or Pocahontas or Hercules.
Prince of Egypt (I thought it ended to quickly. I forgot it was made for kids.)
Final Fantasy: Spirits Within
Darkside Blues
Tekken
Pebble and Penguin

Blue Priestess

02-11-2002, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by GL2k2
Final Fantasy: Spirits Within

Okay, I have mixed feelings about this one--if it wasn't for this movie, I would never have been the salivating FF addict I am now. And the animation--at times--was sorta eerie. However, the story was lifted straight from Aliens, and the character development was nonexistant.

AFTER I played the games, I came to hate it for stealing the name without really having anything that was even remotely related to the Final Fantasy franchise except for a guy named Cid (and they spelled that "Sid", instead of the game way). No blending of fantasy & sci-fi, no recognizable critters like Chocobos or Moogles... It made FF:TSW all the more disappointing.

Still, I didn't touch an RPG till after I saw this, so I can't HATE it. All logic says I should, but I just CAN'T.

Mela

John-Paul

02-11-2002, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by Danielle
That new Balto movie that CN's having on Cartoon Theatre that has the exact same cliche as all the D*sney sequels? :D

That's true.It looks JUST like Lion King 2 only with dogs instead of cats!

John-Paul

02-11-2002, 06:49 PM

I wanna add The Trumpet of the swan and..........ummmmmmmmmmmmm there WAS another one but I forgot it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quick!

Tell me a site with a list of animated movies!

Zorakfan

02-11-2002, 06:51 PM

Rugrats, Rugrats, Ru Rugrats.

SINick is soooo dead after my pilgrimage to Jonenkand.

mbaker

02-11-2002, 08:04 PM

Here's some more.

Pinocchio & The Emperor Of The Night
Happily Ever After
Once Upon A Forest

Mad Monkey 7

02-11-2002, 09:22 PM

The Page Master
An American Tale 2, 3, & 4.
Hercules & Xena: The animated movie
Rock-A-Doodle
All Dogs Go to Heaven 2
Little Nemo
The Jetsons Movie

Sango

02-11-2002, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Mad Monkey 7

Hercules & Xena: The animated movie

Awwww...No fair! You stole the one I was going to put! :p

I remember when I first watched that movie. It was hilarious! What I mean by that is that it was animated so poorly, the jokes were so corny, and the crappy titan song made it hilarious. I did actually rent it a lot just to sit down and make fun of it.

I pretty much agree with everybody on here, especially the Land Before Time sequels. I remembered how much I loved the first one when I was young so one day I decided to rent the 2nd one to see if it was any good. Well, it certainly proved me wrong....^_^;; Haven't seen another one since...

Mr. Unspeakable

02-12-2002, 12:18 AM

For me, anything by Ralph "Rotoscope master" Bakshi.

Samhaine

02-12-2002, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by Jim Harvey
The Swan Princess and any sequels. Horrible acting, bad animation, ridiculous plots, and terrible animal sidekicks.
And the songs! Argh, horrible movie all around. In fact, I used this film as an example of the bad animated movies in a presentation on animation a few months back (I had a topic just like this, so there's more films to throw up to if you're interested). I can't believe John Cleese actually performed for this pile of dung.

Sango

02-12-2002, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Unspeakable
For me, anything by Ralph "Rotoscope master" Bakshi.

Ugh...I agree and I've only seen one of his movies! The LOTR one he did was frightening...Gollum had a grass skirt and everyone loved to feel each other...a lot...¬_¬

sun

02-12-2002, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Unspeakable
For me, anything by Ralph "Rotoscope master" Bakshi.

Ok not the best, but he too was one of the only early competitors with Disney that tried to present a different point of view...Without these early compeditors, and eventually, the financial sucess of Land Before Time, and an American Tail (first one) both marketed by Spellberg, there might be no one else but Disney.....Sould I mention, a film by Ralph...Fritz the Cat? wayout, but some good animation...I am not totally against Ralph, his work will be remembered by many, "Cool World, wasn't bad...not great, but not bad....

Joe Tully

02-12-2002, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Sango

Ugh...I agree and I've only seen one of his movies!

Uh...if you've only seen one of his movies then how can you possibly agree that all of his movies are bad? :confused:

I haven't seen much of Bakshi's films, but Mighty Heroes and New Mighty Mouse were both good. I think it's a good idea to at least see a fair representation of someone's work from different times and in different styles before completely dismissing them.

RogueMartian

02-12-2002, 01:04 PM

Jimmy Neutron, boy genius. This one got an oscar nomination. The land before time movies at least have the decency to go directly to video, and not pass go and can thus be ignored.

RockItShipper

02-12-2002, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by Sango

Ugh...I agree and I've only seen one of his movies! The LOTR one he did was frightening...Gollum had a grass skirt and everyone loved to feel each other...a lot...¬_¬

I loved Fritz the Cat, perhaps Bakshi should've gone more in that direction with LOTR? :P Aside from that hula bit, I thought Gollum was ok... better than Rankin-Bass' frog.... But I draw him looking very worn and all, but with a strong indication of what kinda creature he is.

I think R-B's Return of the King fits here, too. I'm just glad the Mirkwood-elves designs from their Hobbit weren't used. Ick.

Sango

02-12-2002, 02:27 PM

I guess I shouldn't judge all of his movies because of one I disliked. I guess we all get a little judgemental at times, eh? ^_^;;

Mr. Unspeakable

02-12-2002, 03:22 PM

Personally, I thought the R&B Gollum design was perfect. Gollum was a degenerate creature and the voice was what I'd thought he'd sound like. That's one thing that R&B's The Hobbit had going for it, the voicework, it was dead on for me.

As for Bakshi, I always had the feeling that when one of his movies was successful, he never knew why it why successful and thus could never build on his success. And Rotoscoping in my opinion just does not work. But then again, I'm not an expert.

Joe Tully

02-12-2002, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Unspeakable
And Rotoscoping in my opinion just does not work. But then again, I'm not an expert.

Well, rotoscoping can work well. It was used pretty well by the Fleischers back when they invented it and used it in toons like their version of Snow White and Minnie the Moocher, for example. And Disney used it for their Snow White too. But Bakshi went overboard with it for his LOTR movie. Rotoscoping's like any tool, you can use it either well or poorly.

RockItShipper

02-12-2002, 05:30 PM

Part of the problem with rotoscoping is where it's used. Up 'til I saw Bakshi's LOTR, the worst use of rotoscoping I'd seen was in the Fleischer's last/2nd movie, Mr. Bug Goes to Town. But I think it's a major sign things are going wrong when you need that to finish a full-length feature.

And RE: Gollum.... The thing about book characters is that's really a matter of interpretation. I go with the natural result of "big eyes": sunken cheeks to reveal them, as well as extremely emancipated hobbit-features stretched around them. But aside from the Mirkwood elves (um, couldn't R-B borrow the Hermey design?), I think their Hobbit's not that bad in the character design arena- particularly since they have Gandalf's eyebrows poking past his hood. I like going that literal route, particularly with Tom Bombadil- lotsa red in the face, brown in the hands.

Mattashell

02-12-2002, 11:45 PM

People who call themselves animation fans shouldn't bash Bakshi.

Here's why:

Heavy Traffic, Coonskin (If it's racist against anyone, it's whites), and American Pop are works of art.

The New Adventures of Mighty Mouse brought quality to Saturday morning for the first time since Jay Ward quit the biz.

He did classic work for Terry Toons.

If not for Bakshi we would never have known John K.

His work often suffered from a lack of funds, but often I find great integrity in work by him that seems unfinished. LotR is the most prominent example.

thanks for making me realize for the first time that Rankin/Bass and Ralph Bakshi have the same initials.

Matta

RockItShipper

02-12-2002, 11:58 PM

Not to mention Fritz the Cat. What fun is animation if it's all G-fare?

Evil Dr. Reef

02-13-2002, 09:42 AM

Titanic: the Animated Movie.
There was a thread about this on one of the boards, and I wrote a very nice rant on it, if you'd care to find/read it.

Blue Priestess

02-13-2002, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by Evil Dr. Reef
Titanic: the Animated Movie.

Is... is this a typo? Please say yes.

Please?

... Oh God, all hope & joy just left my universe. Wasn't the live action one bad enough?

Mela (likes her leading men with testosterone, thanks)

RockItShipper

02-13-2002, 09:47 AM

The mess Disney made of "The Thief and the Cobbler".

Evil Dr. Reef

02-13-2002, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by MTDiva
Is... is this a typo? Please say yes.

Please?

... Oh God, all hope & joy just left my universe. Wasn't the live action one bad enough?

Unfortunately, it's not a typo.
And you know what the worst part is? They changed the ending so nobody dies! Now Titanic has a happy ending, though. I mean, come on! It's appaling.

sun

02-13-2002, 10:53 AM

Based on a book by George Orwell, a political satire on the rise of Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin...the idiots who made this animated version, changed the entire nature of the original work, by changing the ending, and the point the author was trying to make when he wrote the book in l948---Stalin was still alive...

Animation ok, but, it is the same as if the Titanic never sunk, and all were saved, when it was hit by an ice cube....I gurantee that changing the tone, and intent of the author, in making a film, is one of the worst things a producer, director team can do...and these people did it. Or Romeo, and Juliet, after a near miss, find each other, and go off to England and live happily ever after....Has anyone seen this piece of junk "Animal Farm" 50s version. I showed it in one of my history classes when I taught and had not previewed it...an error on my part, and just about vomited when I realized what had been do

Thanks for reading this....Stuart

DR. BELCH

02-13-2002, 11:01 AM

--those stock-footage specials from Warners in the eighties? Daffy Duck's Fantasy Island, for my money, was the worst of the lot--the editing felt sloppy, Mel Blanc's aging voice was painfully evident in the newer footage, and it didn't feel worthy of the Friz Freleng name. I'm like, "Just wish a way off the island and be done with it."

RockItShipper

02-13-2002, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by oldtoonguy
Based on a book by George Orwell, a political satire on the rise of Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin...the idiots who made this animated version, changed the entire nature of the original work, by changing the ending, and the point the author was trying to make when he wrote the book in l948---Stalin was still alive...

Animation ok, but, it is the same as if the Titanic never sunk, and all were saved, when it was hit by an ice cube....I gurantee that changing the tone, and intent of the author, in making a film, is one of the worst things a producer, director team can do...and these people did it. Or Romeo, and Juliet, after a near miss, find each other, and go off to England and live happily ever after....Has anyone seen this piece of junk "Animal Farm" 50s version. I showed it in one of my history classes when I taught and had not previewed it...an error on my part, and just about vomited when I realized what had been do

Thanks for reading this....Stuart

Animal Farm's not the only satire to be rewritten as a kiddie animated feature. Gulliver's Travels, Alice in Wonderland...

Joe Tully

02-13-2002, 11:37 AM

Oh god, Gulliver's Travels has to go on this list. I generally love the Fleischer toons, but that was terrible. It was just so predictable and slow-moving, no characterization at all...

Mr. Bug Goes To Town was good though. I didn't have any problem with the rotoscoping in it, the story was OK...it managed to be funny in a few places.

Blue Priestess

02-13-2002, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Joe Tully
Oh god, Gulliver's Travels has to go on this list. I generally love the Fleischer toons, but that was terrible. It was just so predictable and slow-moving, no characterization at all...

Yeah, I have to agree. I expected so much better from a studio that did Superman and acid-trippy Betty Boop cartoons set to jazz music. I didn't like the different styles. Gulliver & a couple of characters looked like they were directly rotoscoped, down to the smallest detail, while others looked like the Fleischer house style, in that they were unreal.

Didn't see Mr. Bug, though. Looks like it might be good--doesn't lend itself to rotoscoping too much.

Mela

DR. BELCH

02-13-2002, 03:18 PM

Rocky:
Animal Farm's not the only satire to be rewritten as a kiddie animated feature. Gulliver's Travels, Alice in Wonderland...
Mustn't forget Kid's Klassics' Tom Sawyer and Friends (the way they spelled "classics" should say it all). Not even a mention of Ol' Jim. The animation's not much to speak of...but I did like the use of Grieg's music in the Peer Gynt shorts.

sun

02-13-2002, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Joe Tully
Oh god, Gulliver's Travels has to go on this list. I generally love the Fleischer toons, but that was terrible. It was just so predictable and slow-moving, no characterization at all...

Mr. Bug Goes To Town was good though. I didn't have any problem with the rotoscoping in it, the story was OK...it managed to be funny in a few places.

I haven't heard that one mentioned in many years.....What is most interesting about that second Fleischer attempt, and last, at full length animation, is that many of the ideas were later used by both Disney and Spellberg, in ANTZ, and A BUGS LIFE.... one shot, in Mr.Bug goes to Town, where the feet are walking around, and almost stepping on the bugs, showed up in a similiar vain, in ANTZ. and Mr Bug goes to town, as Joe pointed out, was not a crappy film...Some good spots, as was mentioned....Neither it, nor Gulliver's Travels were financially successful, and the Flescher's not only lost their rights to make full length annimated films:after their "Superman" series,(1941) which had some outstanding toons, they lost their studio too..for more info on early animation, See Lenord Maltins, great book on the subject, "Of Mice and Magic" That book is a great source on cartoons from all the studios, from l920-1980....If you are really interested in the history of toons, you need to look at that book, perhaps, not all of it, but enough to get the feel. It has tremendous research and effort, and at the end, a list of almost all cartoons made by the major studios during the period....Good luck to all..Stuart.

John-Paul

02-26-2002, 11:54 PM

BUMP!

Joe Wagner

02-27-2002, 10:04 AM

I'm gonna have to stick with Titanic: The animated movie and the earlier Looney Tunes movies that seemed to run for six hours at a time. I never could stand to sit through those. The Land Before Time series is a good one to rip on from numbers 2 to infinity. The only movie I think I've disagreed with so far has been Titan AE. I enjoyed this movie a ton and wish that Fox hadn't shut down it's animation studio after it. Granted it wasn't the greatest of all animated features but I did find it entertaining. After Titan AE we were probably going to get Michael Turners Fathom and some other stuff - it's a shame they pulled the studio.

-Joe!

The Dork Knight

02-27-2002, 07:56 PM

The LBT movies are the worst. I tells ya them be makin' a new movie right about now! (Sorry, that's my occasional prospector in me.:D)

- Foley Is Good

sun

02-28-2002, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by jjwspider
I'm gonna have to stick with Titanic: The animated movie and the earlier Looney Tunes movies that seemed to run for six hours at a time. I never could stand to sit through those. The Land Before Time series is a good one to rip on from numbers 2 to infinity. The only movie I think I've disagreed with so far has been Titan AE. I enjoyed this movie a ton and wish that Fox hadn't shut down it's animation studio after it. Granted it wasn't the greatest of all animated features but I did find it entertaining. After Titan AE we were probably going to get Michael Turners Fathom and some other stuff - it's a shame they pulled the studio.

-Joe! You are 100 per cent correct. In this field, the fewer is not better....I suspect we will be down to Disney, and Spellberg's Dreemworks, maybe someone will occasionally take a chance on something great, but Fox lost millions on Titan AE, and Anasasia (I am not sure if that was Fox too) and other studios will be reluctant to spend what a full lenght movie costs, aside from cheaters, like Pokeman, the great ones, may have already been made.....any comments? Stuart

The Game

02-28-2002, 10:55 PM

Ah yes, the horrid Swan Princess. Forgot that one existed.

Let's put it this way- the only decent animated movie (that is in the Disney style) would have to be Anastasia. That movie rocks- there are few others. (MOTP is good).

Momijii

03-01-2002, 03:13 AM

I'm saying The Land Before Time movies...one to many.

Joe Wagner

03-01-2002, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by oldtoonguy
You are 100 per cent correct. In this field, the fewer is not better....I suspect we will be down to Disney, and Spellberg's Dreemworks, maybe someone will occasionally take a chance on something great, but Fox lost millions on Titan AE, and Anasasia (I am not sure if that was Fox too) and other studios will be reluctant to spend what a full lenght movie costs, aside from cheaters, like Pokeman, the great ones, may have already been made.....any comments? Stuart

Anastasia was indeed a Fox Animation studio film. I think what really hurt both of these movies was their lack of advertising and their marketing on Titan AE sucked. Anastasia had previews running every Saturday morning on Fox, and that was about it. Titan on the other hand had about as much support as the Iron Giant. I think they only showed the previews on their dying Saturday morning line up and didn't fork out the money for any other station. Plus they way they marketed it as "Star Wars meets the Matrix" was completely wrong. I have the Star Wars saga on VCD and the Matrix on DVD and have seen both tons of times and while I loved Titan AE it was neither one of these - except for it was in the sci-fi genre.

If I had marketed it you would have seen something along the lines of earth and then pull back until you saw some CGI ships whip past the camera view - and then you would see Earth exploding in front of you. From their an action shot of Kale running from the Dreeg and a voice over along the lines of "Earth is no more. Humanity is dying. Will you survive?" From there a flash of the characters and an action scene or two following with the Titan AE logo smashing onto the screen with a black background and something along the lines of "Humanities final hope arrives on June ?, are you ready to join?" (BTW Powerman 5000 would play in background when the Titan AE logo comes up - can't remember the song name but it was on the soundtrack).

Granted this is rough but it has to be better than the CGI shot of a ship, followed by a scream and then comparissions to Star Wars and the Matrix. Plus these spots would have aired on all the other channels during "Invasion America" on WB and Superman, Batman and Batman Beyond on Kids WB, Xyber 9, Power Rangers and the Marvel toons on Fox, Batman and Toonami on Cartoon Network, and during the daily Nick, and nightly NBC and ABC schedules. The marketing was there and Fox couldn't truly expect it to succeed without marketing the film. Shame to because I would have loved to have seen Fathom and what they were capable of there too.

-Joe!

sun

03-01-2002, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by jjwspider

Anastasia was indeed a Fox Animation studio film. I think what really hurt both of these movies was their lack of advertising and their marketing on Titan AE sucked. Anastasia had previews running every Saturday morning on Fox, and that was about it. Titan on the other hand had about as much support as the Iron Giant. I think they only showed the previews on their dying Saturday morning line up and didn't fork out the money for any other station. Plus they way they marketed it as "Star Wars meets the Matrix" was completely wrong. I have the Star Wars saga on VCD and the Matrix on DVD and have seen both tons of times and while I loved Titan AE it was neither one of these - except for it was in the sci-fi genre.

If I had marketed it you would have seen something along the lines of earth and then pull back until you saw some CGI ships whip past the camera view - and then you would see Earth exploding in front of you. From their an action shot of Kale running from the Dreeg and a voice over along the lines of "Earth is no more. Humanity is dying. Will you survive?" From there a flash of the characters and an action scene or two following with the Titan AE logo smashing onto the screen with a black background and something along the lines of "Humanities final hope arrives on June ?, are you ready to join?" (BTW Powerman 5000 would play in background when the Titan AE logo comes up - can't remember the song name but it was on the soundtrack).

Granted this is rough but it has to be better than the CGI shot of a ship, followed by a scream and then comparissions to Star Wars and the Matrix. Plus these spots would have aired on all the other channels during "Invasion America" on WB and Superman, Batman and Batman Beyond on Kids WB, Xyber 9, Power Rangers and the Marvel toons on Fox, Batman and Toonami on Cartoon Network, and during the daily Nick, and nightly NBC and ABC schedules. The marketing was there and Fox couldn't truly expect it to succeed without marketing the film. Shame to because I would have loved to have seen Fathom and what they were capable of there too.

-Joe! Thanks for your insite and knowledge. it is appreciated Stuart