John Byrne - What happened?

[Dub]

Having been too young when this stuff was happening, I've heard people say this his work on Superman, X-Men, and fantastic Four was his best work ever.


But in stark contrast - his work on Wonder Woman and Spider man (which was more recent) was gawd awful. Having actually SEEN Spider man and a FEW WW's when he was doing them I'd have to agree. His Spider Man reeks of raw bone :p

So what exactly happened that caused such a downgrade in his art and writing? Why's he...I guess the word is despised by so many people I see on comic message boards?

[Anthonynotes]

Originally posted by Jon "WB" Gray
Having been too young when this stuff was happening, I've heard people say this his work on Superman, X-Men, and fantastic Four was his best work ever.


But in stark contrast - his work on Wonder Woman and Spider man (which was more recent) was gawd awful. Having actually SEEN Spider man and a FEW WW's when he was doing them I'd have to agree. His Spider Man reeks of raw bone :p

So what exactly happened that caused such a downgrade in his art and writing? Why's he...I guess the word is despised by so many people I see on comic message boards?

Well, I didn't think much of his Superman revamp---which might explain some of the criticism against him: his habit of taking whatever book he gets on and rearranging/retconning everything on a whim/to suit his own needs, even if the ideas he comes up with seem ill-advised (see: that "Clark Kent was a jock in high school"/"Supes was sent to Earth as a gestating fetus" origin stuff and that "Supes uncharacteristically kills some PZ crooks with green-K" story (my three least-favorite aspects of his rewrite), or what I've heard of "Spiderman: Chapter One", or the controversy over his having WW's mother Hippolyta travel back in time to become the "Golden Age" Wonder Woman in the 40's [though I wonder if DC head honchos might've been partially behind that one---makes it easier to reprint old JSA stories/sell merchandise based on stock imagery of said characters, seeing as WW was involved in the JSA heavily before being retconned away after "Crisis"])...

-B.

[CadaverousEyes]

Everyone burns out sooner or later. Just look at Dixon.

[Calhoun07]

I don't know the man personally, but from my vantage point as a fan and based on things I have read, Byrne is too busy jumping ship everytime somebody cancels a book he's on and he's too busy grinding personal axes that he's lost the focus of what made his work great to begin with.

The early stuff I saw him do, Fantastic Four especially, worked so well because it harkend back to the great stuff that made those books so enjoyable to begin with. He went back to the basics with so many characters while able to pull out fresh ideas to keep the stories poppin' without sacrificing the integrity of the groundwork the comics were built on. There are those that say Byrne's work on FF is second only to Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, and I think that is due to the fact that Byrne went back to the basics established by those creators. He was to the Fantastic Four what Bruce Timm was to Batman.

However, when he went to Superman, he had to live up to this image of being this great creator that could take any fledgling title and turn it into a top ten book (and gee, there are certain creators burning pretty bright right now trying to do that...I sure hope they don't lose their gusto in their quest to be the next big thing!) and he didn't just go back to the basics with Superman, he decided to tweak a few things here and there. And it was that tweaking that got him the most attention. And I think it started to make him lose his sight of what it took to make a book great again. It wasn't the tweaking the book to make these great changes that got fans talking that made these books memorable, it was going back to the basics.

And in the end, I think he focused more on the tweaking than on the basic foundations of the characters that made them great to begin with. He began to lose books, getting them pulled from under him. And he's a human being, and he needs to make a living to pay his bills, so he had to jump ships when it was finacially reasonable for him to do so, but I think he let politics cloud his judgement on many career choices he made. And in the end, I feel he turned into another hack trying to grasp to some kind of wunderkid formula that actually wasn't what made him great to begin with.

Again, that's just my view as a fan. I could be totally off from the reality of it all.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

When you've drawn and written as many comics as he has, you do go a little insane. Many books he did in the 80s-90s were one-man shows--he often did the lettering, penciling, inking, scripting all by himself...he was a workaholic. On the other hand, his work became "quantity over quality" and so it suffered.

I don't think his art is TOO bad, even now. It's perhaps a little too rough and sketchy, but the fundamental soundness of the layout is still there.

I'm not sure if his art was better or worse in the older days. They were certainly much cleaner and aesthetically pleasing, but often a little stiff and undynamic. His 70's X-Men and Avengers stints was probably his peak, IMO. I think his short stints as Avengers artist surpassed his X-Men work. However, Byrne is a poor inker of his own work. I'll find a webpage I saw that showed some BEAUTIFUL pencils, but the finished product often comes out mediocre because of poor inking. I think only a select group of inkers are good for Byrne. The main one being Joe Sinnott.

His writing has been up and down. I've found much of his stuff, including his earlier scripts, passable and competent for comic fare, but rarely remarkable. His FF run may have been his best work as a writer.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Some beautiful early pencils of Jean and Scott Summers done about 20 years ago.

http://danscam.5u.com/jeanscott.jpg

Pencils from an old X-Men splash page.

http://danscam.5u.com/lobotomy.jpg

[Domino]

I don't care what anybody says, I thought John Byrne's Next Men was a work of sheer genius. I can't say I'm one of his "faithful fifty," (the 50,000 fans that seem to follow all of his work) but I do still enjoy and appreciate a lot of his work, like in Superman/Batman Generations. I didn't care for his Wonder Woman at all though. He's had hits and misses like anyone else as far as I'm concerned.

[whitmore_sean]

Originally posted by Brainatra
Well, I didn't think much of his Superman revamp---which might explain some of the criticism against him: his habit of taking whatever book he gets on and rearranging/retconning everything on a whim/to suit his own needs,


Well, it's not entirely fair to say Byrne changes all of this stuff on some mad whim. He was brought into "Superman" specifically to change everything, because the books up till that point has been (a) selling poorly, and (b) slightly ridiculous (I mean, Beppo the Super Monkey? Super-ventriliquism?). It was for that same reason he changed all that stuff on "Spider-Man Chapter One"...true, it all stunk, but his job description on that book was "change stuff".



even if the ideas he comes up with seem ill-advised (see: that "Clark Kent was a jock in high school"/"Supes was sent to Earth as a gestating fetus" origin stuff and that "Supes uncharacteristically kills some PZ crooks with green-K" story (my three least-favorite aspects of his rewrite),


I'm sure as heck not going to defend all of Byrne's decisions ("Hulk Chapter One", anyone?), but I loved each and every one of his Superman retcons. The Clark Kent jock stuff was great. How are you supposed to respect a character if he's constantly putting on this mild-mannered, wimpish front? Unlike Batman, Clark Kent is the real person and Superman is the disguise. He should be conforming Superman's persona to make life as Clark easier, not vice versa. As for the fetus thing, wasn't that necessary to explain how Kal-El was able to leave the planet? All Kryptonians were bonded to the planet via the Eradicator, right? Certainly helps to explain why all of the Kryptonians didn't simply fly away in ships of their own. And as for Zod and the others...well, Supes did go nuts and create a split personality after he killed them, right? At least he was remorseful. :)



or what I've heard of "Spiderman: Chapter One", or the controversy over his having WW's mother Hippolyta travel back in time to become the "Golden Age" Wonder Woman in the 40's [though I wonder if DC head honchos might've been partially behind that one---makes it easier to reprint old JSA stories/sell merchandise based on stock imagery of said characters, seeing as WW was involved in the JSA heavily before being retconned away after "Crisis"])...


Yes, well, "Spidey Chapter One" was as horrible as you'VE have heard. And it sounds like you hit the nail on the head with the Hippolyta thing. I can't imagine that Byrne was ready and rearin to solve the age-old question (that nobody was asking, I might add) about Wonder Woman in the JSA. This sounds more like the DC Continuity Gods coming up with new and fun ways to give their fans aneurisms. I can't wait for Byrne to come back to "Superman" so he can explain how Supes really WAS in World War II. :cool:




SEAN
"I've got gout!"

[Anthonynotes]

>>>
Well, it's not entirely fair to say Byrne changes all of this stuff on some mad whim. He was brought into "Superman" specifically to change everything, because the books up till that point has been (a) selling poorly, and (b) slightly ridiculous (I mean, Beppo the Super Monkey? Super-ventriliquism?). It was for that same reason he changed all that stuff on "Spider-Man Chapter One"...true, it all stunk, but his job description on that book was "change stuff".
<<<

I suppose so....

>>>
I'm sure as heck not going to defend all of Byrne's decisions ("Hulk Chapter One", anyone?), but I loved each and every one of his Superman retcons. The Clark Kent jock stuff was great. How are you supposed to respect a character if he's constantly putting on this mild-mannered, wimpish front?<<<

Well, I guess part of my reaction stems from figuring Clark Kent was supposed to represent someone for the reader to identify slightly with (sort of a "Walter Mitty" sort of thing). Seeing him as one of the "in crowd" kids at high school doesn't do much for me. And I don't think it's required for one to become an all-star jock (the other extreme from "wimpish") to garner respect....

>>
Unlike Batman, Clark Kent is the real person and Superman is the disguise.<<<


A post-Crisis take on the character admittedly, though still a valid one...

>>> He should be conforming Superman's persona to make life as Clark easier, not vice versa. As for the fetus thing, wasn't that necessary to explain how Kal-El was able to leave the planet? All Kryptonians were bonded to the planet via the Eradicator, right?<<

Post-Crisis, yes; pre-Crisis, I think it was mostly assumed that their heavy trust in their own technnology and Jor-El's predictions of doom being written off as him being "off his rocker" were the main reasons they didn't leave (that and far as I could tell a bit of a distaste for exploring beyond their planet much....).

>>>
Certainly helps to explain why all of the Kryptonians didn't simply fly away in ships of their own. And as for Zod and the others...well, Supes did go nuts and create a split personality after he killed them, right? At least he was remorseful. :)
<<<

Well, that still doesn't in my opinion make what he did in that plotline right....even if he "felt remorseful" (guess by that standard, it'd be OK to go out and kill someone if I "felt remorseful" afterwards)...plus, one reason that Superman strikes my interest is that he's someone who *can* figure out a "better way" of solving a problem than the average person might. And he's willing to go to rather great lengths to figure out a way that doesn't involve killing others, even if it means sacrificing his own life in the process. (and even *I* could think of other ways he could've taken care of those PZ crooks---haul 'em in front of the Guardians of Oa for a trial and let *them* take care of them, stick them in the same sort of interdimensional prison they gave the Crime Syndicate [pre-Crisis admittedly, but still], imprison them on a planet orbitting a red sun, etc. THe only thing that'd "let them escape to seek revenge on Earth" would be editorial/writer's decisions, and even then, unlike the pocket universe's Earth, there's enough hereos to make the population of China pale in comparison to stop even three pre-Crisis-powered Kryptonians [the Green Lanterns for a few]....).

Though I suspect my opinion in all of this is probably influenced by having grown up on the Silver/Bronze Age version of Superman, along with (from the sounds of the arguments over the above PZ Crooks-being-killed story) my own politicial beliefs re: capital punishment...

>>>Yes, well, "Spidey Chapter One" was as horrible as you'VE have heard. And it sounds like you hit the nail on the head with the Hippolyta thing. I can't imagine that Byrne was ready and rearin to solve the age-old question (that nobody was asking, I might add) about Wonder Woman in the JSA. This sounds more like the DC Continuity Gods coming up with new and fun ways to give their fans aneurisms. I can't wait for Byrne to come back to "Superman" so he can explain how Supes really WAS in World War II. :cool:
<<<

Well, I *can* wait.... ;-) (And there's plenty of stories about Superman-in-World War II and what he was like: see any stories from the Golden Age, or read old issues of "All Star Squadron"....)

-B.

[umbc8]

Originally posted by Brainatra
, imprison them on a planet orbitting a red sun, etc. THe only thing that'd "let them escape to seek revenge on Earth" would be editorial/writer's decisions, and even then, unlike the pocket universe's Earth, there's enough hereos to make the population of China pale in comparison to stop even three pre-Crisis-powered Kryptonians [the Green Lanterns for a few]....).

Though I suspect my opinion in all of this is probably influenced by having grown up on the Silver/Bronze Age version of Superman, along with (from the sounds of the arguments over the above PZ Crooks-being-killed story) my own politicial beliefs re: capital punishment...

-B.

While I'm not exactly that big a fan of the PZ Execution storyline, I do have one disagreement with what you have said. If they PZ criminals did escape and come to our earth, I don't think the post-Crisis heroes would really stand a chance. First of all, nobody is up to their power levels (Superman is the regarded as the most powerful in the DCU, and even he's not as powerful.) The Kryptonite from the post-Crisis earth won't hurt them. As for the Green Lanterns (depending on if this story occurs before or after Hal Jordan killed the Corps), it was shown that power of the pre-Crisis Superman was more than any Green Lantern could handle. The post-Crisis power rings were slightly depowered (no longer allows for time-travel, etc) so I doubt even the Lanterns could have stopped them. And if it was just Kyle? Not a chance. And by the time someone got the idea to filter the sun so that only the red radiation would get through, think about how many people would be dead and cities destroyed. Like Doomsday, times 3, intelligence, fighting skills, and with more power. Now, we don't know what all was supposed to be going through Superman's mind at the particular moment, but perhaps he realized all of this. Perhaps he felt it was better that he suffer for killing the criminals, instead of all of the people that would die if they came to his Earth.

[umbc8]

I think part of Byrne's problem is also that he's getting older. It's been about 20 years since he was at his peak. Also, his art problems might be due to his having so much to do on his current projects. Lately he's had 2 or 3 comics that he's worked on at one time that he's done everything but edit and color. He had Wonder Woman and Jack Kirby's Fourth World going at the same time, doing the writing, penciling, inking, and lettering in both. I think he might have been working on Spider-Man: CHapter One at this point, and was doing the same duties on it (although, later on, he had an inker). Then he left DC and worked on Amazing Spider-Man (pencils only), Spider-Man:Chapter One (see above), writing Spider-Woman, working on Superman & Batman: Generations for DC, and I think it was right around this time that he was also doing the writing, penciling, inking, and lettering on X-Men: The Hidden Years. Then, after he finished the Spider-Man stuff, and the DC stuff, he was writing Hulk, still working on X-Men: The Hidden Years, and was working on that project that explains what happened in the Marvel universe between Captain America getting frozen in WWII, and the Fantastic Four coming together.

As far as I know, when he was working on Fantastic Four, he was onlyworking on Fantastic Four. When he worked on X-Men, he was only working on X-Men. When he was working on the Superman books, he was only working on the Superman books.

The added work and extra duties, plus the added years are what I think has contributed to his not-as-good-as-before work. Although, I have to say, his early Amazing Spider-Man work looked good when Scott Hanna was inking it. In fact, I would have to say that my favorite Byrne artwork has either been his pencil work, or stuff inked by Scott Hanna, Dick Giordano, or Karl Kesel.

[Anthonynotes]

Originally posted by umbc8


While I'm not exactly that big a fan of the PZ Execution storyline, I do have one disagreement with what you have said. If they PZ criminals did escape and come to our earth, I don't think the post-Crisis heroes would really stand a chance. First of all, nobody is up to their power levels (Superman is the regarded as the most powerful in the DCU, and even he's not as powerful.) The Kryptonite from the post-Crisis earth won't hurt them. As for the Green Lanterns (depending on if this story occurs before or after Hal Jordan killed the Corps), it was shown that power of the pre-Crisis Superman was more than any Green Lantern could handle. The post-Crisis power rings were slightly depowered (no longer allows for time-travel, etc) so I doubt even the Lanterns could have stopped them. And if it was just Kyle? Not a chance. And by the time someone got the idea to filter the sun so that only the red radiation would get through, think about how many people would be dead and cities destroyed. Like Doomsday, times 3, intelligence, fighting skills, and with more power. Now, we don't know what all was supposed to be going through Superman's mind at the particular moment, but perhaps he realized all of this. Perhaps he felt it was better that he suffer for killing the criminals, instead of all of the people that would die if they came to his Earth.

Well, there *are* the various magical heroes of the DCU, who would still more than be capable of stopping them cold (since they'd still be vulnerable to magic)---also possibly the Golden Age Green Lantern in that category (Alan Scott's ring/power being magically-derived vs. the other Lanterns' technological basis). And if push *really* came to shove, there's always the Spectre....

Also, IIRC, Superman had exposed the three Kryptonians to Gold Kryptonite prior to killing them....Gold-K, of course, permanently removing all their powers. Thus, my finding the need to kill them even less convincing...

-B.

[lifelongcartoonfan]

I really don't know what's on john's head these days. The man has to juggle many departments by himself for the last couple of years. That to me is why he is lacking in creativity these days. He has to do the writing and the pencilling and the inking and the lettering himself. To any one else it whould mean less money down a person's wallet, but in john's case it's ending up little by little sacificing his artwork just becuase he wants to do other things in his books to save time and money. This all started with his work on his creator-owned John Byrne's Next Men for Dark Horse. He had to do all the work expect for the coloring himself. At that particular time, the artwork had remain consistent.

Jumping on ahead, he goes by the same creative process on Wonder Woman, Spider-Man:chapter one and X-Men:The hidden years just to name a few. I just wish he stop this idea of his doing everything himself and stick to just writing and drawing his work and leaving the extra work to folks that know what they are doing. I fell sad that his art style is not as dynamic and as wild as his early years, but as one person in this post pointed out that he is getting old and he should stop letteing politics in the comics industry bother him and being negative and *****y about it.

I have been a Byrne fan since Fantastic Four, and i have his Superman work as well( Keith Williams and Karl Kesel are his best inkers in those books), personally his Spidey revamp had something going in the beginning but then he lost direction as the series wore on. Hopefully his forthcoming DC series will get him back to what he once was but somehow i doubt it will ever get him back to his former glory.

Pablo aka longtimecartoonfan
email:gundam2771@yahoo.com