Escaflowne

[.Automatisch]

It would be great if they put Escaflowne on the action block. I was a good show and I still don't know why Fox canned it.

[Edward_Bebop]

Never actually seen it. I heard that it's like a movie too though.

[Naraht]

ok, I loved Escaflowne.....but I don't want to see it on US TV dubbed. Even if CN would pay to have it re-dubbed.

It's a great rent, I recomend it...but it's not CN material. It starts out slow, changes in the middle, and picks up towards the end. I don't think it starts out strong enough to attract US audiences....but that's just me.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Nope, doesn't fit. The show should be able to make it on Toonami, to be honest. Yes, it's sorta slow, but there is at least one action scene per episode, and it's themes are basically more suited for teens and stuff.

But then, so are more AS shows, so what do I know...

The dub is also pretty bad. But it should be able to run relatively unedited on Toonami.

[Evil Dr. Reef]

Yeah... Toonami would be a better home for Escaflowne. Unless you could convince CN to show it unedited. Then it'd make a good candidate for AS Action.

[Sheamon]

Why I want Escaflowne to be on Adult Swim action:
1) No need for edits. Its relatively tame in the first place, but I can see Toonami going crazy with edits.
2) Its my favorite anime. Of course I want it on TV again, in a proper manner this time.
3) Escaflowne has one of the best openings ever. It would be such a shame to see it removed on Toonami for one of their custom made ones. And I could certainly see Toonami screwing up the time continuity of the first (without the opening) and final (without the closing) episodes with their custom ones. They've done it before, and I can't really expect that Esca would get through unscathed.

Why I don't want/don't think it will be on:
1) Fox still owns it if I remember correctly (I don't know, I'm all confused about the ownership right now) and I don't see them giving it up.
2) Escaflowne's great because it appeals to all audiences (male, female, young, old). But its not really a show that I want on a block that supposed to be targetted towards 18+. Atleast at this point in time where they're targetting 7 year olds it would be a step forward...

[vegetaprinceofsayian]

(post removed due to trollish content)

[.Automatisch]

I hate when dubbies that only like fake anime (American DBZ) try to say stupid things about great animes such as Escaflowne, as Vegeta has demonstrated. If AS chose it, it wouldn't be too diferent from what they have already. If they showed uneditied, it would be a great thing considering all the action scenes that were cut out from Fox Kids. If you want to see a great action anime, see the Escaflowne movie, which has nothing to do with the show.

[vegetaprinceofsayian]

Originally posted by vegetaprinceofsayian
(post removed due to trollish content)

trollish content! i have my opinon and you have yours. escaflowne is sucks. i don't have to like a show just because someone else does. i didn't attack the person who watches the show, just the show itself, people do worse to me and you don't remove their posts.if you don't want me in the forum just say so.

maybe the last post for vegeta prince of sayia-jins

[vegetaprinceofsayian]

[QUOTE]I hate when dubbies that only like fake anime (American DBZ) try to say stupid things about great animes such as Escaflowne, as Vegeta has demonstrated. If AS chose it, it wouldn't be too diferent from what they have already. If they showed uneditied, it would be a great thing considering all the action scenes that were cut out from Fox Kids. If you want to see a great action anime, see the Escaflowne movie, which has nothing to do with the show.

shut up n00b i never said anything about you, just the show you watch. i have the right to my opinion just as you have yours but don't attack me again. how do you know what i watch, how dare you call me a dubbie. i have many a tape or DVD which is original non-edited, non-dubbed. you don't know what you are talking about, so just shut your mouth. i hope you read this before the mod takes it off. which i'm pretty sure he will because he just likes pissing me off, i believe.

[Naraht]

Originally posted by vegetaprinceofsayian
[QUOTE]I hate when dubbies that only like fake anime (American DBZ) try to say stupid things about great animes such as Escaflowne, as Vegeta has demonstrated. If AS chose it, it wouldn't be too diferent from what they have already. If they showed uneditied, it would be a great thing considering all the action scenes that were cut out from Fox Kids. If you want to see a great action anime, see the Escaflowne movie, which has nothing to do with the show.

shut up n00b i never said anything about you, just the show you watch. i have the right to my opinion just as you have yours but don't attack me again. how do you know what i watch, how dare you call me a dubbie. i have many a tape or DVD which is original non-edited, non-dubbed. you don't know what you are talking about, so just shut your mouth. i hope you read this before the mod takes it off. which i'm pretty sure he will because he just likes pissing me off, i believe.

Actually, it'll probably get deleted cause you're attacking a fellow TZer, and that's against the rules around here. Look, you are entitled to you opinion, but there are more eloquent ways of posting than "Me hate this show. People who watch are dum!" I'm exagerating..but you can see how that can be inflamitory, and why we don't like that sort of thing....

The mods aren't out to get you.....though at times it may seem like it....try not to act like Vegita...or at least..not like Vegita when he's angry. This isn't an RPG...be yourself, and...umm..pretend it's school, or work, and you have to be civil...and everyone will be happier...=D

[Sheamon]

trollish content! i have my opinon and you have yours. escaflowne is sucks. i don't have to like a show just because someone else does. i didn't attack the person who watches the show, just the show itself, people do worse to me and you don't remove their posts.if you don't want me in the forum just say so.

maybe the last post for vegeta prince of sayia-jins

You're getting attacked and your messages are being edited because you're acting like a 5 year old troll. Spend the time writing posts that are ON TOPIC, ARE WRITTEN WELL and BACK UP THE CLAIMS INSIDE. When you do that like everyone else does, then you'll find people treating you and your posts better. If not, then leave. I for one wouldn't miss you.

[AgentMaxX]

Well, Fox still owns Escaflowne, despite the fact that they will never air it again. Bandai probably won't give them anymore anime (yay!) because they got screwed big time. Fox also picked up Slayers after CN announced it had plans for getting the rights to it, but even though they have the rights to it, Fox will probably never air it.

[Edward_Bebop]

Can anyone explain to me why FOX does that? I mean they buy a bunch of good show, as I have been told, and they never show them. Instead they show rather unintelligent shows such as this one I saw this morning. It was something like "M Knights" or something like that. It was awfully drawn, and REALLY cartoonish. It was supposed tp be anime, but it wasn't even close. And second, FOX OWNS SLAYERS??? My friend is crazy about that show, and I've been dying to see it.

I bet that CN has thier kill lasers aimed at FOX.

[Joe Tully]

i hope you read this before the mod takes it off. which i'm pretty sure he will because he just likes pissing me off, i believe.

Yeah, it's not like you're making genuine mistakes or anything. :rolleyes: Please, don't make accusations like that. That's just asinine. And if you have a problem with a mod, PM him about it instead of whining about it on the boards.

Everybody stop the childish name-calling. Everyone is allowed to their own opinion here, but you can't just start insulting people. This thread is close to getting closed, and people are getting close to crossing the line.

Anyways...to try to get this back on topic...

I only saw Escaflowne once on Fox. It seemed OK. I remember hearing a lot about how Fox did the show injustice. It might be good to see it on AS, it would give the fans a chance to see it done better. Hopefully with less edits.

[Sheamon]

Can anyone explain to me why FOX does that? Etc...
Thats not too hard to figure out :p (although keep in mind this is only my take on the matter and is not official).

Toonami in 2000 was becoming better than ever. They go and add Gundam Wing, who's ratings tops even Dragonball Z's. FOX sees that and figures that they can do the same thing. They thought if they went out and got another mecha series starring teenagers that came out around the same time they could get the same results. FOX finds out that CN, among others, is looking at Escaflowne, one of the most critically acclaimed and well known TV animes of the 90's. They watch the first 4 episodes (thats right, this has been confirmed as an official fact) and nothing more, and decide off of that that they'd purchase it. Know as I'm sure all of you who are familiar with Escaflowne (not to mention practically any show) know, the first 4 episodes offers little indication about what the remainder of the rest of the series would be like. It was a huge error on FOX's part that still has effect today. FOX throws so much money at Bandai that they can't refuse, and instead of selling the show to CN, they sell it to FOX.

The guys at FOX start preparing Escaflowne for a run on the network. They started their editing work (the truth is, Escaflowne is an extremely tame series and has little that needs editing in the first place, even for Toonami/FOX Kids audiences) and made all the wrong decisions. What the guys at FOX couldn't understand was that Gundam Wing and the like was such a huge hit because it appealed to both males and females. Escaflowne is the same way, unedited. Its a mecha action show, but its main character is a female and the romance and character development is actually a bigger part of the show than the action and plot is. Since FOX is a bunch of idiots, they decide that Gundam Wing was a hit because it appealed to little boys that crave action. They got all indications that they can that Hitomi is the main character and instead try to make Van the main character. This includes axing tons of character development throughout all the episodes they show, and the infamous entire first episode being removed (which half of is in 'schoolgirl anime' fashion). Needless to say, the experiment was an utter failure because of their attempts to target it towards only boys (not to mention the fact that Yoko Kanno's godly soundtrack was replaced with techno music and the oh so beatiful opening sequence was removed for the famous "Escaflowne! Escaflowne! Escaflowne!" crap). FOX cancels the show but even though they no longer have any other plans on airing it they decide to hang on to it rather than sell it to Toonami. After all, if Toonami got the show they'd air it practically unedited (although I'm sure the opening sequence would be removed unfortunately). There'd be a huge rush of both boy and girl audience members and Toonami would have another Gundam Wing-level ratings boom on their hands. If you're FOX Kids, who competes with Toonami, preventing this from getting into their hands is worth far more than any dollar amount that CN can throw their way.

...went a little overboard there I guess. Oh well, atleast you know the story now, from my perspective atleast :p Unfortunately I find it hard to believe that Esca will ever be on CN until the license agreement with FOX expires.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Among some of the things Fox did was:

--Take two original episodes and edit them into one episode.

--Take two episodes and bits of a third one and edit them into one episode.

--Rearrange the order of the scenes

--Cut out scenes

--Speed up the pace by cutting down the running time of interaction scenes, sometimes in mid-sentence...

--Try to catch up on important info they edited out earlier by creating an obscene number of "flashbacks" (basically taking scenes they cut out previously and putting a CGI border around it to indicate that IT'S A FLASHBACK!)

I could go on, but I'd just get more disgusted as I type. I'm not even a huge fan of the show, but this is pretty shabby treatment to any show, if you ask me.

[Edward_Bebop]

Evil, evil Fox.

Yeah, FOX bad, very very bad. Baaaad. FOX bad.

(Sorry, had to do Rain Man, it just seemed right)

You would think that the creators of the shows would have like, sued them. But FOX owns the shows, so I guess a lawsuit would have been useless.

[Sheamon]

FOX owns the TV license, they can edit it in any way they see fit, just like CN can do with Outlaw Star and the like. I'm sure Akane, Kawamori, Watanabe and the others (especially Yoko Kanno and Hajime Mizoguchi) would be extremely po'ed seeing the 'americanized' version, but there's nothing they can do about it.



--Take two original episodes and edit them into one episode.

--Take two episodes and bits of a third one and edit them into one episode.

Not exactly. Here's what happened. The first episode was cut entirely. No, it was not edited into the first one. They merely sprinkled a few flashbacks of the first episode through the rest of the series. When FOX reached episode 6, they cut so much out of the episode that they simply couldn't end it there. So they edited half of episode 7 in as well. The next episode was the last half of episode 7 and the first half of episode 8. And so on for a while... Eventually they got back on track so each episode of the edited version was actually the original set up of the series. When they reached episodes 16-18, they melded the 3 episodes into 2. Finally, they edited nearly half each of episodes 19 and 20 and fit all but the last 5 minutes or so of episode 20 into a single episode. Phew, sure was confusing. (keep in mind that YTV in Canada used the FOX edit which is where I'm getting the info for the never aired in america episodes)

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

They had a pattern of 2 episodes edited into one for a little while, and in one or two of them they'd throw a flashback in from a previous one, even if it only lasted 2 seconds. IMO, That's 3 eps in 1. I'm reaching a bit, though...

I taped it off TV and I memorized that one little fact, after giving my old Bandai subbed Escaflowne tapes another viewing.

[Sheamon]

I'm reaching a bit, though...

Yep, you are :p A perfect example is episode 6 of the FOX version. This has the second half of episode 7, then starts off episode 8 and sprinkles in some flashbacks from the first episode before ending halfway through episode 8. While it contains footage from 3 different episodes, its far from '3 episodes edited into 1'.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Yes, but I'm trying to slam Fox Kids here, so a little bit of exaggeration helps. ;)

Seriously, though, it really can't get imaginably worse than what I've listed...

EDIT: Okay, "Macron 1" was worse beyond imagination...

[VinceA]

Macron 1
Do you mean Macross?

[Naraht]

The question was posed earlier as to why Fox would get the rights to certain shows, then not air them? It's so CN wouldn't have them, and it's possible that Fox doesn't want to air them after the whole Escaflowne debacle.

There are some things hurting Escaflowne...it's a one season show...26 episodes. And it's too adult for Toonami, and too teenager angst for Adult Swim. It would probably land on Toonami without any blood. Which means it would run for 5 weeks, then either repeat ad nausium, or disapear into the abyss.

For the amount of money it would take for CN to aquire the rights from Fox (who paid a bundle for it, and aren't going to let it go at a loss to a competitor) and the re-edit the show, redo the dub, and put it on air......the ratings won't help will the void in CN's pocketbook. It's not worth it to them, so they won't get it.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by VinceA

Do you mean Macross?

No. Macron 1.

[Sheamon]

and the re-edit the show
which wouldn't take that long considering
1) They'd go from the unedited dub
2) There isn't that much to cut in the first place.


redo the dub
Getting Kirby Morrow and Michael Dobson to record the word 'darn' instead of 'damn'? Thats nothing. There's no other dialogue to edit.


the ratings won't help will the void in CN's pocketbook.
Yes... they do. How do you think they make their money? Advertising revenue from shows with good ratings.

It's not worth it to them, so they won't get it.
The only thing preventing them from getting it is FOX. If the price is too high its one thing, but if they can get it at a reasonable price, I don't see why CN would refrain from getting the next Gundam Wing on their hands (heck, why not air it unedited at night like GW? makes sense)

[Naraht]

quote:
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and the re-edit the show
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which wouldn't take that long considering
1) They'd go from the unedited dub
2) There isn't that much to cut in the first place.

.....even if there isn't "much" it still takes time, and time == money
quote:
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redo the dub
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Getting Kirby Morrow and Michael Dobson to record the word 'darn' instead of 'damn'? Thats nothing. There's no other dialogue to edit.

ok, I'm a bit grey on the dub thing, but I assume that Fox had the dub done...which would have been on the Fox edited show. A re-edit would require a re-dub. If it was dubbed before editing, then there might not be as much of a problem.
quote:
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the ratings won't help will the void in CN's pocketbook.
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Yes... they do. How do you think they make their money? Advertising revenue from shows with good ratings.


Gee...I didn't know that. I work in Television....CN can only charge So Much for advertising. The typical toonami show has ONE Break, and the out break. Airing a show once doesn't earn back the money invested. And re-airing it ad-nausium will make the fans unhappy.
quote:
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It's not worth it to them, so they won't get it.
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The only thing preventing them from getting it is FOX. If the price is too high its one thing, but if they can get it at a reasonable price, I don't see why CN would refrain from getting the next Gundam Wing on their hands (heck, why not air it unedited at night like GW? makes sense)
If they could get it at a reasonable price.....they would have. They can't, so they won't, so it isn't going to happen.

[Sheamon]

ok, I'm a bit grey on the dub thing, but I assume that Fox had the dub done...which would have been on the Fox edited show. A re-edit would require a re-dub. If it was dubbed before editing, then there might not be as much of a problem.

No, the dub was done before it was presented to the networks. Like I said already, there's no need to redub anything, and even if they go the typical 'remove damn, kill, etc...' route there's still not that much to change in the first place.


.....even if there isn't "much" it still takes time, and time == money



Gee...I didn't know that. I work in Television....CN can only charge So Much for advertising. The typical toonami show has ONE Break, and the out break. Airing a show once doesn't earn back the money invested. And re-airing it ad-nausium will make the fans unhappy.

Why bother getting anything in the first place then? Lets follow your idea and Cartoon Network can play nothing but DBZ repeats and Outlaw Star for the millionth time. No point in getting any more DB/Z episodes, or any new Gundam shows, etc... since they actually require some work.

[Naraht]

Noooo...my point is Toonami isn't the place for it, and it won't fly on Adult Swim. Also, there are a number of inexpensive shows out there, but for what it would cost to get the rights to Escaflowne, there's no way CN could pay for it out of advertising revenue. Tenchi/DBZ/DB/OS all have a large number of episodes, so the re-airing isn't as big a deal...Esca only has the 26 (and the movie) so it's more money per episode.

[Sheamon]

Well I agree with you about the cost of licensing it (always have :p), although I've always seen it as a perfect fit for Toonami (certainly not adult swim, although it would fit on the current 'teenage' swim lineup).


there's no way CN could pay for it out of advertising revenue. Tenchi/DBZ/DB/OS all have a large number of episodes, so the re-airing isn't as big a deal...Esca only has the 26 (and the movie) so it's more money per episode.

Except Esca has both more episodes than Outlaw Star (26 to 25) and requires a lot less editing. (When you really get down to it, if CN actually had some guts they could air it uncut sans parts of episode 14 when Van massacres everyone) And its arguable that Esca's ratings would top OS's since it is targetted towards both boys and girls where OS is more of a boy's show. I agree, to a certain extent about the others. Then again, you could argue this about plenty of shows that CN has already shown on Toonami, and they didn't neglect to air those shows.

In the end, our arguing/discussion is pretty much worthless since FOX won't be giving up the show for any price. -_-

[.Automatisch]

Has anyone seen the movie? I did at Otakon and is was very action-packed. I'm not sure if it has been released in the US yet, but if it has I highly reccomend it. BTW, it does not really have to do with the show.

[Sheamon]

Yeah, I've seen it. Its in a grand total of 5 theaters in the whole country right now. :yawn: