Ways to inprove JL

[Mr. Unspeakable]

Whether we like or dislike the current state of Justice League, I feel most of us can agree that there is room for improvement. But how? Here is my list of possible improvements.

1. I feel that the two parts of the show would be better shown together, making JL a hour long show. This can be done easily enough by shuffling Samurai Jack around.

2. Build a superhero block around JL. Shown once a week, and with Batman, Superman, Batman Beyond, and importing X-Men: Evolution (if necessary) should provide enough material to pull this off. This will help negate the negative impact of only showing one new episode a month.

3. Writing Reform. Right now, I feel the writing is the weakest point in the show. Plot holes (like Superman and Wonder Woman wrecking a mall with no consequences) need to be sewn up. The characters, hero and villian, alike need to be made more 3-dimensional. An idea for fixing the latter problem is showing the JL's civilian identities and seeing secondary characters like Lois or the JL's sidekicks. Another improvement would be giving the season an overarching plot so that the JL will still have a global crisis to confront and still have time for smaller plots.

3. Character Rotation. Each season's JL should be slightly different. At the season finale or at the season premiere two or three new members should be introduced and an equal number leave the team. this should help keep the show fresh and people interested in the show.

4. Give it time. Experience should help all aspects of the show. Both the writing and the art should see improvement as the creative team gains experience working together, but I feel the greatest strides foward will be with the VA's. On almost every show the actors grow into the role.

These are a few of my ideas for improving JL. I am very interested in the show an want to see it suceed. I am also interested in any other ideas that you have thought of to help the show. And I would like to apologize for some of the poor writing, that's what you get for writing when you've been up too long.

[GL2k2]

I think the reason there is so much of a backlash is that we as fans of the older series of BTAS and STAS have seen great stories in a half hour format. Now they're giving us more, but falling short.

I strongly feel when and if Paul Dini writes an episode, it will probably be the best one we see. I don't mind everything else in the show, this is only season one, and something's like the voices just can not be changed and I don't really feel need to. But the writing is hurting the show. By calling it a kiddie show is a blantant lie. If thats the case then why not put on Kids WB and call it that. It is not, it is for adults, which is why we anticipated more depth and structure in the stories than we've got. But season two is bound to improve upon the series.

[Mattashell]

I've said it before,
Deeper plots/stories
We need to get to know these (new) characters better

I must disagree about the hero shuffling idea. It will get in the way of devoloping these guys (one will be gone before we get to know him and then we've got a new guy who's got to start from scratch) and it is a little commercial, you know like Superfriends and a lot of the other shows from back when they thought they could hold the kids' interest if they would tune in to see the new Superfriend or GIJoe with the more characters to sell more toys attitude.

Mattashell

[Heehaw]

I think the reason there is so much of a backlash is that we as fans of the older series of BTAS and STAS have seen great stories in a half hour format. Now they're giving us more, but falling short.

That pretty much sums up my views.


and it is a little commercial, you know like Superfriends and a lot of the other shows from back when they thought they could hold the kids' interest if they would tune in to see the new Superfriend or GIJoe with the more characters to sell more toys attitude.

Well, basically, all cartoons are 22 minute commercials. Ratings equals more advertising dollars which will, hopefully, lead to better funding and higher quality episodes. The real money, though, comes from merchandising. All of those Javelin-7s and characters translates to more little plastic people, which leads to more repaints, which leads to more money, which leads to........

If Hasbro has the license, though, it probably won't be used effectively. Certain characters will be left out and the ones that are used will be rehashed to death via repainting and bigger, better backpacks and missile launchers. Any other company would probably produce every character imaginable and then rehash them with appropriate accessories and or outfits.

[Mr. Unspeakable]

One thing I forgot to mention was I feel that the team needs to be shrunk by one or two members. By doing this the pressure to get airtime for everyone should be lessened. The reason I proposed character rotation was to ensure that the characters remain fresh and to get other popular JLA members on the show (like Green Arrow, Atom, and Plastic Man). This could work into the storylines fairly easily.

For instance, say Hawkgirl's home planet is attacked by The Imperium. She's called home by her superiors and MM and Flash decide to follow her, the former because he's got unfinished business with The Imperium and the latter because he's got a bit of a crush on Hawkgirl.

Now the JL's a bit short-handed to face the overarching plot threat. (As to what is, I'm not sure, say Lex Luthor and Brainiac co-ordinating a large group of powerful but not too smart supervillians, in order to stretch the JL thin and strike at their most vulnerable spot.) The JL calls in a recently deposed (again!) Aquaman who agrees to join if the JL will help reclaim his throne. Also the JL encounters the Red Tornado, who wants nothing more than to join his idols, the JL.

During that season, two or three episodes will show what happens to Hawkgirl's group and the rest will show the rest of the JL. The big climax will have Lex and Brainiac take to the field (Lex in that wierd Green/Purple body armor and Brainiac inhabiting a giant WarMech or something) leading their villian band in ambushing the JL at their weakest. And then, when Lex is standing over Superman aiming a kryptonite laser at Supes, gloating, just as he's about to pull the trigger a red streak comes and knocks lex down and breaking his gun. With Hawkgirl's group back the JL just barely wins, but not without casualties. Hawkgirl in a Desaix-like moment is severely wounded and Red Tornado sacrifices himself to destroy Brainiac's mech before it goes thermonuclear. The other Villians, seeing their leaders go down, break and flee for the most part. Hawkgirl's injuries mature Flash somewhat, but he recovers his sense of humor when Hawkgirl's wounds prove to be non-fatal.

Now how's that for off the top of my head? I don't see what's so hard about it you JL writers! :D

[Divv]

I don't think there should be too many character substitutins but maybe killing someone of at the end of season two in a major battle-arc would inject a little more realism into the show.

[JL4Ever]

I think everyone needs to recognize that this isn't B:TAS and thus everyone should evaluate the show without comparing it to other Timm shows first off. As for the complaint about the JL destroying so much property with little consequences Timm has explained why that's so. He said that he felt given the increased power level of these heroes that having them just fight in some warehouse like in B:TAS wouldn't do their characters justice so you have them destroying museums, malls and whole planets. The case that there should be more character development is a bit much. The animators and writers are shuffling five main characters an episode so far. So, unless you want to break each episode into stories about one or two characters like in B:TAS I don't see how each character can be spotlighted to the point that we know them backwards and forward. As for the stories themselves, I'm enjoying them. "Secret Origins" was a bit cliche, but "In Blackest Night" really gave us a look at what makes GL tick and the type of person he is. "The Enemy Below" was a good family drama that did a good job re-creating Aquaman. And "Paradise Lost" was a heart-felt story about the internal conflict going on with Wonder Woman. So, I don't see how the writing is bad. No, it's not Batman: the Animated series, but that's why it's called Justice League.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by JL4Ever
I think everyone needs to recognize that this isn't B:TAS and thus everyone should evaluate the show without comparing it to other Timm shows first off.



Well, first of all, I don't think anyone wants this show to be B:TAS. The point is, we've already seen these creators produce such higher quality shows. There's really no excuse for this show to not be the same quality. The fact that it isn't is the cause for concern.




As for the complaint about the JL destroying so much property with little consequences Timm has explained why that's so. He said that he felt given the increased power level of these heroes that having them just fight in some warehouse like in B:TAS wouldn't do their characters justice so you have them destroying museums, malls and whole planets.



I don't think anyone has problems with the location of the damage being done. If Timm and company want to destroy populated areas, we're all for it. The problem is that if destruction on that scale occurs, the consequences should eb shown. If innocents were killed, there would be hell to pay for our heros. And if civilian and government property were destroyed, no one in the general population would let that go without some sort of complaint or action against the heros for their carelessness. These are the sorts of issues many of us would like to see addressed.




The case that there should be more character development is a bit much. The animators and writers are shuffling five main characters an episode so far. So, unless you want to break each episode into stories about one or two characters like in B:TAS I don't see how each character can be spotlighted to the point that we know them backwards and forward.



This has been discussed in other threads, but I'll point it out again. It can be done. Ever seen Gargoyles? They handled just as many characters, and got a lot more character development accomplished in just the pilot episode alone than JL has most of this season.




As for the stories themselves, I'm enjoying them. "Secret Origins" was a bit cliche, but "In Blackest Night" really gave us a look at what makes GL tick and the type of person he is. "The Enemy Below" was a good family drama that did a good job re-creating Aquaman. And "Paradise Lost" was a heart-felt story about the internal conflict going on with Wonder Woman. So, I don't see how the writing is bad.



Unfortunately, all of those stories had cliches. In Blackest Night had the cliched "it was all a hologram" ending - done over and over in many sci-fi shows. Enemy Below had the cliched military commander that's willing to sacrifice innocents and his men for his own agenda. I can't really say much about Paradise Lost since I missed most of it. But so far, of the episodes I've seen, none of them were free of cliches.

Don't get me wrong - I do enjoy the show. But I see where the complaints are coming from, and I think most of them are valid.

[Mattashell]

You can rest assured, Clayface. Paradise Lost was the most cliched ep we've seen yet.

Mattashell

(PS, Good point about Gargoyles)

[Salvor]

Originally posted by Clayface

Unfortunately, all of those stories had cliches. In Blackest Night had the cliched "it was all a hologram" ending - done over and over in many sci-fi shows. Enemy Below had the cliched military commander that's willing to sacrifice innocents and his men for his own agenda. I can't really say much about Paradise Lost since I missed most of it. But so far, of the episodes I've seen, none of them were free of cliches.

Paradise Lost had the cliched plot about a villain forcing heroes to get a key that opens a gate to a hell dimension... in order to unleash the power of a god. A whole season of BTVS was based on the exact same story.

[Salvor]

Originally posted by Clayface
This has been discussed in other threads, but I'll point it out again. It can be done. Ever seen Gargoyles? They handled just as many characters, and got a lot more character development accomplished in just the pilot episode alone than JL has most of this season. [/B]
This is one VERY good point. It's oh so relevant AND oh so true. It's been discussed before? huh I guess I missed it.

[Heehaw]

A cliche is fine, as long as it is presented in a semi-fresh way. BTAS was full of them, but the presentation of the show, from a technical standpoint, was so stellar that one could look past them. BTAS had unique and filmlike compositions. JL is more straight-on type of "filming".

I think JL has more in common with STAS. That show was more of a straight action type of program. The animation was excellent, most of the time, and very consistent. The backgrounds displayed depth, and the way the scenes were composed were on par with BTAS, though more suited to an action type of show.

STAS is an excellent example of how to do something like JL.

[Maxie Zeus]

Picking up on what Heehaw says, there is another way to handle things. Maybe JL should go in the opposite direction and de-emphasize the stories and characters.

Think about Batman Beyond's "The Call," which I think a lot of people here remember with great fondness. (At least, I do.) It's got a cliched story, even one featuring an old JLA adversary: the old mind-controlling parasite thing. The plot really doesn't make any sense: No one has ever explained to my satisfaction, at least, exactly what Starro/Superman was up to by attacking JLU members and then bringing Batman in solve the case. And we know virtually nothing about the JLU members, so there's hardly any characterization.

Sounds like a JL episode. And yet the thing works beautifully because it is well-executed, moves at a blinding pace, and takes such joy in piling absurd plot twist on absurd plot twist that by the time you realize it doesn't add up, the story is over and you discover you had a great time anyway.

In short, "The Call" is pulp material, and should be judged and respected for it. And if you stand back from Justice League you'll see the same thing.

I keep hearing that the Silver Age comics were the inspiration, but I don't know "Silver Age" from "Silver Surfer" from "Hi-ho, Silver," so I'll stick to what I know: "Secret Origins" is a War of the Worlds ripoff, done so shamelessly it can't fail to have some of that novel's grip. "Paradise Lost" is a Ray (Jason and the Argonauts; Clash of the Titans) Harryhausen spectacular. "The Enemy Below" is Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom transplanted to Atlantis. And "In Blackest Night" is a ludicrous space opera of the sort that went out with 30s serials. Maybe we'd recognize it's supposed to be a lot eye-rolling good fun if the series had a bubble-gum title like The Astounding Justice League.

At least, that's what I find myself thinking of it as, and why I really dig the show despite the deficiencies. That's why more and more I'm beginning to come round to Heehaw's point-of-view, that the execution and not the writing is the key failing. The actors are uniformly talented and intelligent and tasteful, but maybe that's what it doesn't need. If Diana is going to keep blurting out "Great Hera!" maybe it should be Superfriends' Shannon Farnon playing the role; I mean, there was an actress who could deliver the line with conviction!

Tastefulness and intelligence, in fact, are what we associate with Timm, so is it criticism or praise to note that he's giving the series something it may not need? Oh, we've had some good, tasteless stuff: Aquaman losing his hand, and the underground battle with the undead hordes in "Paradise Lost." I even have high hopes for the upcoming Gorilla Grodd appearance, that we'll get the obligatory rape-menace scene: Wonder Woman, bosom heaving, shackled to a pillar and menaced by a giant ape. I'm sure Timm has the balls for it. I only fear that he and his collaborators will shrink from the gloating execution it would need to go gloriously over-the-top: Savage primary colors, lascivious camera angles, and a snarling soundtrack.

"Over the top," in fact, is exactly where I'm beginning to feel the show should be. It's useless advice to give, but I think the series needs to be wilder and more chaotic than it has been. It needs less plausibility, not more; it needs to dance on the ragged edge of disaster. Dare I say: It may need to live fast, die young, and leave a good-looking corpse.

[Mattashell]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
"Secret Origins" is a War of the Worlds ripoff, done so shamelessly it can't fail to have some of that novel's grip. .

Did you notice a character named Wells? This could be a reference to H. G. Wells who wrote the book or Orson Welles who exploited it to cause nationwide panic. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
"The Enemy Below" is Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom transplanted to Atlantis.

Secret Origins also had a character named Carter.

Mattashell

[MILatino]

Originally posted by GL2k2
I think the reason there is so much of a backlash is that we as fans of the older series of BTAS and STAS have seen great stories in a half hour format. Now they're giving us more, but falling short.

Well, I must say that although I like watching JL, I'm somewhat disappointed. It's mostly because of my personal taste in writing.

Characters: I understand that these heroes are drawn from later versions of the "classic" heroes, e.g. not Hal Jordan and Barry Allen. That's fine, but I'm still a stickler for some "classics".

First and foremost, Wonder Woman should not be able to fly. Sorry, but five of the seven regulars can fly. It's too much. Second, Superman is not very super. He gets hurt/stunned way too much to be the Man of Steel. That Superman / WW battle was not credible at all. She's strong, but not that strong that she stuns/tires Superman.

Is it me or is Batman's animation getting worse with each incarnation? BTAS, great! B&R, OK. JL, what's up with the ears?

Stories: The best stories on BTAS were the ones where Batman didn't battle super villians, e.g. Thorne, Daggett, most Two-Face episodes. No aliens, no super techogadgets, no lost worlds within earth, no magic. Just ordinary people who are hard to catch. Let's see some more of that, please.

As for their character development, I like the fact that the personalities of the JL heroes are different and more real. I would like to see more of their civilian roles. They're not costumed up 24/7. Give 'em a life! :)

[Heehaw]

She's strong, but not that strong that she stuns/tires Superman.

I agree that Supes is way underpowered, but WW beat him because he let her. He discovered the whole hallucination-trap thingee and didn't fight back.

I think the show needs to adopt some of that cool fast paced action from the world of anime. If anyone has seen Blood: The Last Vampire or the 2-part Ninja Resurrection you'll know what I mean. That's fantastically animated hyper-kinetic action at it's best. If you haven't seen it, then by all means do. They are pretty hard R features if that means anything to you.

STAS was like them to an extent, though not quite as stylized.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy all,


Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
And yet ["The Call"] works beautifully because it is well-executed, moves at a blinding pace, and takes such joy in piling absurd plot twist on absurd plot twist that by the time you realize it doesn't add up, the story is over and you discover you had a great time anyway.


I hadn't actually considered this angle, but The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai and good time travel movies (Back to the Future for instance) use the same principle to good effect. A lot of Raymond Chandler works this way, too (who killed the chauffeur in The Big Sleep?). I suspect that you may have hit on why I still watch Justice League despite the flaws I see in it.

I was also kicking around the idea that JL needed to aim bigger from a different angle. The early notes on JL talks about "throwing planets" at the League, but I don't think we've seen that kind of stuff at work yet. Team-books (vs. singleton heroes or team-up books) necessarily require larger-than-life threats; Galactus would never show up in Spider-Man for example. So far, it seems to me that most of the threats they've handled so far could have been done with one fewer hero than they had, and possibly even as a plain old team-up.

Unfortunately, I think a threat big enough to justify the entire League can't be dealt with substantively in an hour (40 minutes without commercials). So maybe the earlier idea to make all JL arcs 3-parters isn't a bad idea.

-- Ed/Ace

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound So far, it seems to me that most of the threats they've handled so far could have been done with one fewer hero than they had, and possibly even as a plain old team-up.

That's a good point. Imagine "In Blackest Night" with only GL. He would have to confront his accusers, fight the Manhunters, defend himself in court, break out of prison, confront his corp-mates, solve the mystery, clear his name, and save the power from the Manhunters. Talk about dramatic!

We might also learn a lot more about him than that he goes back to the 'hood and sulks when he accidentally blows up 3 billion people. D'oh! :D

[G. Wen]

Many of the fights in JL are initiated by very superficial reasons. For ex., in Darkest Night, Hawkgirl decides to take on the GL corps because they weren't supporting John. Nobody is that pugnacious! Put more reasoning and plot behind the action sequences. This will give the story more emotion, and make the viewer feel more in tune w/ the show.

[The New Batman]

They can get a new person to play Superman, one who doesn't sound so much like a diplomat. They can also make him stronger, like S:TAS.

[kid_flash]

Originally posted by MILatino

Stories: The best stories on BTAS were the ones where Batman didn't battle super villians, e.g. Thorne, Daggett, most Two-Face episodes. No aliens, no super techogadgets, no lost worlds within earth, no magic. Just ordinary people who are hard to catch. Let's see some more of that, please.

As for their character development, I like the fact that the personalities of the JL heroes are different and more real. I would like to see more of their civilian roles. They're not costumed up 24/7. Give 'em a life! :)

The only thing interesting with the JL fighting thugs would be the team fighting over who gets the job done. Sure, a few stories with some evil mastermind who doesn't have powers would be cool, but you could only do it like once a season, max. You need to go bigger than that with JL. The Justice League is there when the world's in danger, not when someone robs the Kwik-E-Mart.

A civilian roles ep would be fun. They could even make it actually matter for the Justice League by having a story like Mark Waid's amazing "Man and Superman" story in JLA #51-54.