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Beat
05-02-2007, 11:32 PM
Let's face it. When was the last time someone cared about a pro boxing match? It's been years by my mark, and it's hardly mentioned in this board. I don't even follow the sport anymore, as I'm unable to spell the heavyweight champion's name. (A Ukranian man if I remember correctly). Wrestling's still popular, MMA is catching on, but boxing is another story.

This article sums it up nicely.




http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070425
Boxing is almost down for the count

By Bill Simmons
Page 2
Editor's note: This column appears in the May 4 issue of ESPN The Magazine.
The De La Hoya-Mayweather fight feels like a trip down memory lane, back to the days when boxing still mattered and people asked questions like "Where are we watching the big fight this weekend?"
Before May 5, most every group of pals will force the one guy with the biggest TV to host a pay-per-view party, either by guilting him into it or by going through the charade of pretending someone else with a much crummier TV is hosting, knowing full well the buddy with the giant plasma will step up in the end.
Sounds just like the old days, right?
When was the last time boxing captured the attention of casual sports fans? Consider this: When A-Rod turned into Roy Hobbs, somewhere between his ninth and 12th bombs, my mother (the most casual sports fan alive) innocently wondered on the phone, "Hey, what about this A-Rod?" I knew it was coming. And within the next two weeks, she'll definitely weigh in on the Mayweather fight, even if it's a hard-hitting analysis like "I hope Oscar doesn't get hurt; he's so handsome," or "Somebody needs to wash Floyd's mouth out with soap."
Unquestionably, it's the biggest fight in years. It's also the last Big Fight, period. Here's a top-10 list of boxers who could be described as popular and famous right now:
1. Oscar De La Hoya.
And we're done. De La Hoya is the only boxer who matters anymore. As with any other superstar athlete, Oscar generates a wide range of opinions -- he's a classy dude, he's never beaten anyone great in his prime, he's full of himself, he's a warrior, he's overrated, he has a gravity-defying noggin that looks like Sputnik -- but at least people have opinions about him. You can't say the same for Mayweather, the best pound-for-pound fighter alive but also someone who could show up on "Lost" as one of the Others and go unrecognized by viewers and everyone else on the island. We need Floyd's brilliance to push the fight to another level, but Oscar's star power makes it relevant in the first place.
Well, what happens when Oscar retires? Only one megafight remains that doesn't involve Mike Tyson and a grizzly bear: the Klitschko brothers breaking their lifelong vow and battling for the heavyweight title, which won't happen unless they both go broke (impossible) or a girl comes between them (improbable, but not impossible). So unless Don King hires some überhooker to play one against the other, or unless someone improbably emerges as the Tiger Woods of boxing, this could be the last Big Fight for a long time. And it might not even be that good a fight: The bookies originally made Floyd a 3-1 favorite, mainly because he's a sleeker, deadlier, more polished version of Sugar Shane Mosley -- yes, the guy who beat Oscar twice.
The outcome doesn't matter as much as boxing's brief return to the mainstream, which has been propelled partially by HBO's De La Hoya/Mayweather 24/7, a masterfully entertaining "reality show" about the lead-up to the fight. The first episode alone featured Floyd dropping about 10,000 f-bombs, 50 Cent improbably showing up at Floyd's camp on a Segway and Floyd's uncle Roger answering the question "What would it be like if Flavor Flav was a boxing trainer?"
Meanwhile, poor Oscar has to balance sparring sessions with family life and his many business interests, and as we watched him sitting in his enormous kitchen or training in front of hundreds of media people, the parallels between Oscar and the "domesticated" Rocky Balboa (from Rocky III) were more than a little creepy, right down to Floyd's playing the role of a hip-hop Clubber Lang.
You'd have to hark back to Leonard-Duran for a matchup with such clearly defined white hat/black hat roles. Floyd hasn't just positioned himself as the villain; he wants to be the villain, making him different from Jones Jr., Holmes, Tyson, Hagler and everyone else since Duran who has begrudgingly worn a black hat to sell a fight. Deep down, every boxer from the past 25 years has wanted to be loved. Floyd wants to be remembered. Big difference.
For our purposes, it's been a revelation to watch two superior boxers promote a fight without forcing mutual contempt simply for the hype. Floyd genuinely dislikes Oscar and resents his fame. Oscar genuinely dislikes Floyd for not showing him respect. Over everything else, that's what makes this a special sporting event: In a world where NBA refs hand out flagrant fouls like parking tickets, baseball pitchers aren't allowed to protect teammates and hockey players settle scores by high-sticking someone in the helmet and waiting for three other guys to jump in, it's nice to know that two athletes can still settle a feud by beating the crap out of each other.
So why does boxing have to go away? Sure, it's a completely corrupt sport that lacks any semblance of organization, but that's been the case since, well, forever. The bigger issue? Lack of star power. American kids don't grow up hoping to become the next Ali or Sugar Ray anymore; they're hoping to be the next LeBron, Griffey, Brady or Tiger. The thought of getting smacked in the head for 20 years, soaked by the Don Kings of the world, then ending up with slurred speech and a constant tremor doesn't sound too enticing. Fifty years ago, before anyone knew better, Allen Iverson might have been the deadliest middleweight alive and ended up broke and incoherent. In 2007, he's worth tens of millions and there's a chance he'll be able to hold an articulate conversation when he's 70.
Which scenario sounds more appealing to an inner-city kid with serious athletic chops? Take a guess. It's ironic that Muhammad Ali -- once upon a time our most popular athlete and a boxing ambassador -- damaged the credibility of the sport more than anyone else by turning into a quivering mess. Maybe he is a great man, maybe he had a great career, maybe he was the warrior of warriors, but nobody wants to end up like him. Even the sport's most talented boxer (Mayweather) started fighting only because of his father and uncle (two former boxers). Raised in a different family, he'd definitely be playing centerfield or point guard for a living.
Boxing could have staved off its decline, at least a little, with a UFC-like business plan that included a constant presence on one cable network, one loaded PPV card per month, one championship belt per division, better marketing and promotion, and a charismatic, accountable leader like Dana White. But it's a pipe dream, and we know it: Too many dirtbags make too much money feeding off the perpetual disorganization and lawlessness, so that's how things will stay. The sport resembles a broken-down mansion that seems as if it can be salvaged -- right until the housing inspector tells you about the water-damaged walls and termite-infested foundation rotted to the core.
We need to knock down the house and start over. And in the years following the De La Hoya-Mayweather fight, as boxing crumbles from a lack of mainstream interest, we will. Until then, let's enjoy the Last Big Fight. Call your buddy with the big TV and tell him you're coming over on May 5.


Does anyone here even care about the fight this weekend? Did anyone even know De La Hoya was going to fight? I'm curious, having watched this sport seem to shrivel up.

Temple Fugate
05-02-2007, 11:37 PM
I've never cared for boxing. Watching two people beat the crap out of each other isn't what I consider entertainment.

Pro wrestling...is different. I'm not an avid watcher, but many of my friends are, and I appreciate the theatricality while simultaneously disapproving of the wrestlers who have destroyed themselves or are on the road to doing so.

In my world neither "sport" would exist. But obviously this isn't my world and a significant portion of the population prefer different tastes.

Robin2099
05-03-2007, 12:30 AM
Yeah pretty much. ODLH is the only legit draw left in boxing, and with UFC taking more and more of the audience away boxing will only become less and less popular.

Tapout
05-03-2007, 12:34 AM
Boxing is done. Pro wrestling was never a threat because they've coexisted for near a century now. Boxing is on its deathbed partly because of slimeball promoters like Bob Erum and Don King, and partly because of MMA. The Hispanic market still loves Oscar, but the rest of the country really hasn't cared about boxing since Tyson's reign of destruction in the late 80s. After being an MMA fan for the last few years boxing is even more boring. Seeing guys punch each other with blatant disregard for getting taken down and/or kicked is just no fun. And when was the last time boxing gave us something like this?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/CellaronMacDougal/gabriel-gonzaga_mirko-filipovic1.gif

I hope Liddell vs. Rampage outsells DLH vs. Mayweather by a huge margin so this whole debate can be put to rest.

Moto Pete
05-03-2007, 06:37 AM
It's a shame in the 60's-70's Boxing was next to Baseball as a sport. Mike Tyson took over the 80's and then made a joke of it in the 90's. With no HW Champ that people like or know the sport is doomed. I will be watching this fight and it should be great, but people don't seem to care any more


bring back the pimps, fur coats and flamboutcy of the Ali-Frasier days

RedNinja84
05-03-2007, 09:43 AM
The last major boxing match that got hype was Lennox Lewis vs. Tyson about eight years ago. There is just no boxer who can carry the title and be well known at this point.

Anthony C.
05-03-2007, 12:06 PM
Boxing is done. Pro wrestling was never a threat because they've coexisted for near a century now. Boxing is on its deathbed partly because of slimeball promoters like Bob Erum and Don King, and partly because of MMA. The Hispanic market still loves Oscar, but the rest of the country really hasn't cared about boxing since Tyson's reign of destruction in the late 80s. After being an MMA fan for the last few years boxing is even more boring. Seeing guys punch each other with blatant disregard for getting taken down and/or kicked is just no fun. And when was the last time boxing gave us something like this?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/CellaronMacDougal/gabriel-gonzaga_mirko-filipovic1.gif

I hope Liddell vs. Rampage outsells DLH vs. Mayweather by a huge margin so this whole debate can be put to rest.


Did you see Corrales-Castillo I back in 2005? That was perhaps the best fight ever. Look people should know by reading alot of my posts that I'm a huge boxing fan. In fact I actually write articles for Eastside Boxing. Also there were great fights that took place this year (like Rafael Marquez v Israel Vazquez). To be quite honest the talent level overall in boxing has not dipped, just the coverage. There are alot of people and forces to blame for boxing's decline: greedy sanctioning bodies, greedy promoters, The lack of a checks and balances organization to protect the sport, the lack of a unified champion in every sport, and the fact that all the best fights don't happen. To be quite honest, MMA is killing boxing right now and it may throw the sport off the cliff in Boxing can't do anything about it.

However, as a sport boxing is my favorite by far. No other sport when done right combines drama, action, and strategy better than boxing. I'm a guy who loves a good boxing match and I always will. BTW here is my personal favorite article I wrote for Eastside:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=9993&more=1

Beat
05-03-2007, 04:48 PM
When boxing journalists bring up MMA, I hate to say it, but they sound...well, they sound like cranky old men. (Not accusing you of this Anthony)

http://cbs.sportsline.com/columns/story/10162545

Back around 10 years ago, I was a big boxing fan. I had a poster of Oscar De La Hoya in my room right above a movie poster I had hung. My grandmother of all people watched the De La Hoya/Ceasar Chavez fight, which was probably the biggest Latino fight card that I can remember in recent memory. I was really into it.

Somewhere between now and then, boxing became more disappointing, and dare I say it, horrifically boring. After watching Evander Holyfield get owned by Lennox Lewis for 12 rounds, and then hearing the decision was a draw, I just shook my head.

There are a lot of reasons boxing seems to be dying. MMA is only one, but it's a big one.

Robin2099
05-03-2007, 05:09 PM
Did you see Corrales-Castillo I back in 2005? That was perhaps the best fight ever. Look people should know by reading alot of my posts that I'm a huge boxing fan. In fact I actually write articles for Eastside Boxing. Also there were great fights that took place this year (like Rafael Marquez v Israel Vazquez). To be quite honest the talent level overall in boxing has not dipped, just the coverage. There are alot of people and forces to blame for boxing's decline: greedy sanctioning bodies, greedy promoters, The lack of a checks and balances organization to protect the sport, the lack of a unified champion in every sport, and the fact that all the best fights don't happen. To be quite honest, MMA is killing boxing right now and it may throw the sport off the cliff in Boxing can't do anything about it.

However, as a sport boxing is my favorite by far. No other sport when done right combines drama, action, and strategy better than boxing. I'm a guy who loves a good boxing match and I always will. BTW here is my personal favorite article I wrote for Eastside:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=9993&more=1
The problem though is that for every Corrales/Castilo, we get crap like Mayweather/Baldomir, or Manfredo/Calazghe. At least with UFC your normally gauranteed at least one exciting fight per PPV card, whereas with boxing you spend more money and can get nothing but glorified sparring sessions. Honestly the only fights im interested in are ODLH/Mayweather(cause I really hope DLH knocks Floyd and his big mouth out) and Wlad/Brewster.

Robin2099
05-03-2007, 05:14 PM
When boxing journalists bring up MMA, I hate to say it, but they sound...well, they sound like cranky old men. (Not accusing you of this Anthony)

http://cbs.sportsline.com/columns/story/10162545 Yeah, cause UFC is boxing's biggest competitor, they like to take as many potshots at it as possible. My favorite is when they call them glorified bar bouncers. You could claim that in the early stages of the UFC. But not know with guys like Hughes, Franklin, Couture, Liddell, Fedor and others.

Beat
05-03-2007, 05:34 PM
The whole "Boxers are gentlemen, MMA fighters are thugs" argument? Yes because such upstanding citizens as Mike Tyson and Mayweather shouldn't be compared to such low class members of society as Rich Franklin, a former Math teacher, or Matt Lindland, a silver medalist in freestyle wrestling, to name a few.

Tapout
05-03-2007, 05:58 PM
When boxing journalists bring up MMA, I hate to say it, but they sound...well, they sound like cranky old men. (Not accusing you of this Anthony)

http://cbs.sportsline.com/columns/story/10162545

The Sherdogger's collective heads are currently exploding over this article. Mike Freeman is such an idiot that part of me believes this is a joke. This guy might have had a point in 1993 when Keith Hackney was punching Joe Son in the balls for two minutes and the whole concept was basically gladiator fights without swords, but 2007 MMA is nothing like what the first dozen or so UFC events were. Just to echo some other posters, MMA fighters are about as far from thugs as you're going to find. Gilbery Yvel is pretty much the only guy worldwide known as a dirty fighter, to the point where he can't even get licensed in the United States anymore.

Frozen
05-04-2007, 07:26 PM
Did you see Corrales-Castillo I back in 2005?

That was, indeed, a great fight--and one De La Hoya/Meriweather could do well to emulate. However, I fear it'll just decend into the same territory as De La Hoya/Hopkins: two great fighters afraid to go for it for fear of their reputations. That in itself may well do boxing more harm than good, and all this hype is just going to bite the sport on the ass if it turns out to be a chess match.

RayChuang
05-05-2007, 09:19 AM
When boxing journalists bring up MMA, I hate to say it, but they sound...well, they sound like cranky old men. (Not accusing you of this Anthony)

http://cbs.sportsline.com/columns/story/10162545



I read the article and found it very condescending, to say the least.

These people don't understand that UFC is attracting a HUGE audience of males 18-34, and many celebrities are going to the big UFC pay-per-view events in Los Angeles and Las Vegas, NV nowadays. Why do you think HBO will start showing UFC events soon?

Robin2099
05-05-2007, 06:01 PM
I read the article and found it very condescending, to say the least.

These people don't understand that UFC is attracting a HUGE audience of males 18-34, and many celebrities are going to the big UFC pay-per-view events in Los Angeles and Las Vegas, NV nowadays. Why do you think HBO will start showing UFC events soon?
That's if it happens though. A lot of higher ups at HBO, are against UFC airing there, because of their history with boxing, and the fact that everyone in boxing hates UFC. That's why UFC 70 was shown on Spike.

Beat
05-05-2007, 06:33 PM
They inked a deal supposedly. It was announced after UFC 70, and the main thing is that HBO gets to provide its own commentators.

Tapout
05-05-2007, 06:48 PM
The higher-ups are actually the ones who were in favor of the deal. They went over the heads of the sports department, who were/are the ones who hate MMA and didn't want anything to do with it. The people running the show know that the UFC will make them money.

RayChuang
05-05-2007, 07:50 PM
The higher-ups are actually the ones who were in favor of the deal. They went over the heads of the sports department, who were/are the ones who hate MMA and didn't want anything to do with it. The people running the show know that the UFC will make them money.

Given the strong success of UFC on Spike TV and the huge PPV buys, it's small wonder why HBO will carry UFC fights. They know that the money in UFC is huge, especially with the most desirable viewer demographic of all: males 18-34 years old.

Beat
05-06-2007, 12:35 AM
If anyone cared, the fight was a split decision for Mayweather. A sequel may be inevitable, but both said this would be their last fight. Fight was pretty boring all things considered, nothing really worth noting.

Tapout
05-06-2007, 02:51 AM
If anyone cared, the fight was a split decision for Mayweather. A sequel may be inevitable, but both said this would be their last fight. Fight was pretty boring all things considered, nothing really worth noting.
Last fight against each other, or last fight period? I would say they're getting up there for athletes, but Chuck Liddell is 37 and Randy Couture is 43. Both those guys aren't morons like Tyson and Holyfield and actually saved some money so its not like they need to keep fighting.

Chris Wood
05-06-2007, 01:09 PM
Ultimate fighting seems like a more exciting idea than boxing, but I don't think I care for the execution, as displayed in that clip above. Beating a guy when he's down is classless and lame.

Frozen
05-06-2007, 03:46 PM
All things considered I thought this wasn't too bad a fight. Sure, it was no Tyson/Holyfield, Castillo/Corrales, but it was a lot better than most Mayweather dance classes.

What the sport doesn't need is somebody to think "Hey, De La Hoya/Mayweather worked, let's try this again" with another 'superfight' hyped to the rafters, because it only takes one match to get this much hype and fall flat on its face to do the sport real damage.

Beat
05-06-2007, 05:23 PM
Ultimate fighting seems like a more exciting idea than boxing, but I don't think I care for the execution, as displayed in that clip above. Beating a guy when he's down is classless and lame.

IF he can beat you from there. I can just as easily submit a guy from my back as I can from my feet, which is what makes the sport so fun.

Besides, the referee knew Cro Cop was out cold and tore Gonzaga off of him before any hard shots could be landed.

Robin2099
05-06-2007, 07:23 PM
I think this pretty much is boxing's last hurrah. The fight was hyped to the rafters, to the point that the non hardcore boxing fan probabbly expected Hagler/Leonard or Hollyfield/Tyson. Instead we got Floyd doing what he does best, which is run and pot shot, and Oscar fighting a completely idiotic fight.

EinBebop
05-06-2007, 09:26 PM
The last few boxing cards I saw were boring as hell. You were lucky if you got one good match, which is pretty frustrating if you just shelled out $40 for a PPV. Then comes MMA, which flips that around and frequently delivers a great card top-to-bottom, and it's no wonder that boxing has died.

De La Hoya was definitely the last hurrah, because he was the last boxer that anyone cared about who wasn't a die-hard boxing fan.

Chris Wood
05-06-2007, 11:08 PM
IF he can beat you from there. I can just as easily submit a guy from my back as I can from my feet, which is what makes the sport so fun.

Besides, the referee knew Cro Cop was out cold and tore Gonzaga off of him before any hard shots could be landed.

But what's the point in hitting him when he's down? If he's already down then mission already accomplished, right? Plus you can't do any cool kicks on the ground.

I'd rather see something like Van Damme's Bloodsport or Jet Li's Fearless. All-out mayhem but no wrestling on the ground.

Beat
05-06-2007, 11:22 PM
But what's the point in hitting him when he's down? If he's already down then mission already accomplished, right?

Actually, if you know what you're doing, you can still be pretty dangerous on the ground. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36Ix0YYz3wE)


I'd rather see something like Van Damme's Bloodsport or Jet Li's Fearless. All-out mayhem but no wrestling on the ground.By today's standards, Bloodsport looks so ridiculous that I can't take any part of it seriously anymore. I still love the movie, and have it on DVD, but it's completely unrealistic.

EinBebop
05-06-2007, 11:38 PM
But what's the point in hitting him when he's down? If he's already down then mission already accomplished, right?Wrong. Knocking down and "knocking out" are not the same thing, for starters. Hitting a guy "when he's down" is also a lot more challenging that you would think. Knockouts on the ground aren't at all common.

If there is a knockout, the referees will jump in. And they do tend to err on the side of caution... rarely do you ever see a situation where a referee should've stopped a fight sooner; they're more likely to stop a fight too soon... they were REALLY bad about that when they were trying to get established as legit a few years ago.

Now, that little clip showed a fighter continuing to go after his opponent when he was knocked out... as a fighter, your don't consider your opponent out until the referee tells you. The referee may not see it as a knockout, or may hesitate to call it. By pushing the fight, they force the referee to protect his opponent and stop the fight, as opposed to possibly giving a "briefly" knocked out opponent time to recover. But the referees are on the game, and are protecting the loser before a couple more hits are landed.

As brutal as it may sound, there are statistics out there that say mma is safer than boxing or even football.
Plus you can't do any cool kicks on the ground.But you can do cool submissions.

Chris Wood
05-06-2007, 11:50 PM
By today's standards, Bloodsport looks so ridiculous that I can't take any part of it seriously anymore. I still love the movie, and have it on DVD, but it's completely unrealistic.

Well, if you can't get a couple of chuckles out of a Van Damme movie then what's the point? But I didn't notice any wires or CG, so it seems pretty realistic to me. Not that they're actually making contact of course, but that's the movies.


Wrong. Knocking down and "knocking out" are not the same thing, for starters. Hitting a guy "when he's down" is also a lot more challenging that you would think. Knockouts on the ground aren't at all common.

If there is a knockout, the referees will jump in. And they do tend to err on the side of caution... rarely do you ever see a situation where a referee should've stopped a fight sooner; they're more likely to stop a fight too soon... they were REALLY bad about that when they were trying to get established as legit a few years ago.

Now, that little clip showed a fighter continuing to go after his opponent when he was knocked out... as a fighter, your don't consider your opponent out until the referee tells you. The referee may not see it as a knockout, or may hesitate to call it. By pushing the fight, they force the referee to protect his opponent and stop the fight, as opposed to possibly giving a "briefly" knocked out opponent time to recover. But the referees are on the game, and are protecting the loser before a couple more hits are landed.

I suppose that's what I don't like about the sport. It just isn't classy. If the guy gets up again, knock him down again until he can't get up anymore. But I can't imagine someone like Muhammad Ali or Bruce Lee beating up someone already on the floor.


But you can do cool submissions.

Again, that sounds more like wrestling, which doesn't interest me. I want to see roundhouse kicks, and plenty of them. They should really bring kicking into boxing to give it new life.

Beat
05-06-2007, 11:58 PM
Again, that sounds more like wrestling, which doesn't interest me. I want to see roundhouse kicks, and plenty of them. They should really bring kicking into boxing to give it new life.

You mean kickboxing? That...never really caught on outside of Thailand and Japan. Today, a significantly large amount of kickboxers are entering MMA, Cro Cop among them (He was a former K-1 fighter)

EinBebop
05-07-2007, 12:05 AM
Again, that sounds more like wrestling, which doesn't interest me. I want to see roundhouse kicks, and plenty of them. They should really bring kicking into boxing to give it new life.Tastes vary, and that's okay. You'd probably enjoy K1, mma with no groundfighting. They've even had a few former boxing champions transition over; Mike Tyson is supposed to have signed a contract.

bigddan11
05-07-2007, 12:12 AM
I didn't even know about the fight until yesterday, but it'll either be the last hurrah, or items like "The Contender" and "Rocky Balboa" will help revive the sport, but I do believe UFC, Pride Fighting, Bodog, and all the other MMA's are the wave of the future.

Chris Wood
05-07-2007, 06:11 AM
You mean kickboxing? That...never really caught on outside of Thailand and Japan. Today, a significantly large amount of kickboxers are entering MMA, Cro Cop among them (He was a former K-1 fighter)

K-1 did seem to be really popular when I was living in Japan. I even bumped into Andy Hug, one of the superstars of the time, in a club. Needless to say I didn't look twice at his date. Actually he seemed really mellow.

I've never watched any K-1 matches, but maybe I should check it out. I thought it had been replaced by MMA recently.

Frozen
05-08-2007, 06:14 PM
Oh, Christ. Corrales is dead (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/6633887.stm)... :crying:

Anthony C.
05-08-2007, 07:17 PM
Oh, Christ. Corrales is dead (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/6633887.stm)... :crying:

I wrote an article for eastside boxing which a tribute to Corrales:
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=10895&more=1