Doctor Who "Daleks in Manhattan" (Spoilers)

[HellCat]

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k22/HellCat86/docTZ.jpg
Doctor Who Season 3
"Daleks in Manhattan"
Written by Helen Raynor
BBC 1, 6:35 pm

Amongst the rising skyscrapers and sprawling sewers of 1930's New York city, the Daleks are preparing their most horrifying plan yet...

[MonkeyFunk]

For the record, Helen Raynor previously wrote Ghost Machine, probably the best episode of Torchwood.

[Lord Dalek]

For the record, Helen Raynor previously wrote Ghost Machine, probably the best episode of Torchwood.Considering Torchwood was almost a complete buzzkill, that means nothing.

[Rasputin]

'Ghost Machine' was the only episode I could stand. To give it some credit, it was that episode that persuaded me to stick with Torchwood despite the first couple of disappointing episodes. Unluckily enough the very next episode was 'Cyberwoman', so I'm glad I jumped ship when I did, if I'd already seen the one good episode it had to offer.

I'm very interested in this episode because Depression-era New York is a favourite of mine, culturally speaking (arc deco, hard-boiled fiction, and the 'interesting times' surrounding the '30s on the whole). Throwing Daleks into the mix just fills this whole scenario with awesome.

It's interesting though, how both the early second-season and early third-season two-parters involve suspicious goings on in arc deco worlds. I hope this is better than 'Rise of the Cybermen', though, as two-parter openers go.

This also makes the fourth Dalek story in three seasons. How does that run compare to the rest of Doctor Who? I don't want them to be overused.

And who's thinking there might be a reference to one 'Mister Saxon'? The Face of Boe's last message seems a tantilising hint of who this might be.

[Lord Dalek]

This also makes the fourth Dalek story in three seasons. How does that run compare to the rest of Doctor Who? I don't want them to be overused.Between 1963 and 1966 there were a total of seven Dalek stories, which is quite a bit more than what has been seen so far in this series.


And who's thinking there might be a reference to one 'Mister Saxon'? The Face of Boe's last message seems a tantilising hint of who this might be.Rearrange the letters. ;)

[HellCat]

Ghost Machine was indeed the best. We had an interesting technology, the cast acting like human beings and Torchwood as a whole acting like a secret agency should. Too bad the rest of the season was a bust.

[Conan-san]

Sec pulling off a Cell...so does that make him Semi-perfect Sec?

But seriously, that was f'd up. F'd up something horrid.

[Temple Fugate]

Well I was kind of ticked at myself for actually watching the "Next Time..." last week, (I usually don't) but looking at the title I can see that it doesn't matter AT ALL. :(

[MonkeyFunk]

I give it three or four stars - I always find it hard to judge the first half of a two-parter alone. There were a few quibbles that took it down a little for me: for one thing - and I don't think I've ever made this complaint at all - the musical score seemed pretty heavy-handed. Could've done with more Gershwin. And maybe this is a little nitpicky, but I found it hard to swallow that the Daleks didn't notice the Doctor at the end.

On the other hand, the sets and costuming were great. The Hooverville scenes reminded me of that Spielberg series, Into the West - in a good way, definitely.

Observation: the first episode not to mention Rose, whose name has cropped up more than the arc word.


Ghost Machine was indeed the best. We had an interesting technology, the cast acting like human beings and Torchwood as a whole acting like a secret agency should. Too bad the rest of the season was a bust.

What about... uh... *waves hand* that one with the alien eye and the guy becoming a ghost? That wasn't bad.

[Rasputin]

I loved how neck-deep this adventure was in its time-frame. It was easy to believe this to be 1930s New York just from the ambience of time and the sincerity of its characters. Although you're right, Monkeyfunk, that it's hard to judge this seeing as it's the first half of a two-parter, and I noticed the Daleks not noticing the Doctor at the end, which was a little surprising. It could have been that they were too pre-occupied with THE FINAL EXPERIMENT! to pay attention to the prisoners.

And I've got to say, I am very impressed with THE FINAL EXPERIMENT! turned out. I loved the juxtaposition of creepy makeup and classy black suit. I hope this isn't Sek's only appearance (so no Lumic-esque *KA-THWOK* for you, Monkeyfunk!). They show's had good characterisation of the Cult of Skaro as beings that will do literally anything to survive. Clinging onto existence with their last ounce of strength. It's no wonder the Doctor gets so angry at their existence. They're testing the axiom of 'survival of the fittest' to the absolute limit.

I was probably too hasty to give the episode a 5*, but dang was that some good make-up.

[James]

Loved the style, atmosphere, music, acting, voicework and whole frame of the tale. Even the pigmen amused. My only slight confusion was the Dalek's logic in regards to humanity being somehow a step up if fused...

Let me explain:

My dog stays at home, sitting on the rug by the fire, while I go off to a different country to war.

I lose all my men except me.

Do I come back and look at that dog and say "hey, while I've flown to a different country, been involved in a war beyond this dog's imagining and lost, I must somehow be substandard to this dog. This dog continues to survive next to the fire while my race dies when we go to commit genocide on a scale this dog couldn't comprehend.

Ergo, this dog clearly has a stronger ability to survive than I, so when I merge with this lazy mutt, I'll be a superior force on the battlefield - providing the battle is for a place on the rug by the fire.

It just seemed an odd comparison. Compare yourself with the Time Lords Sec, sure, go ahead.. but humanity...? You better have a damn good explanation next week.

[Lord Dalek]

Well I was kind of ticked at myself for actually watching the "Next Time..." last week, (I usually don't) but looking at the title I can see that it doesn't matter AT ALL. :(Eh, it isn't as bad as Robots of Death. :p

[Temple Fugate]

Why pig-men? It was done pretty well, and they drew some emotion into it (Although that dancer girl is a terrible girlfriend if she couldn't recognize the guy until she was two inches away from him. His voice wasn't that different and neither was his haircut or body type.) but I'm not sold on WHY pig-men. Then again, zombies have been done a million times.

Great to see the Doctor not getting hung up on Rose and diving right into the mystery. There was that little scene where Martha apparently wanted the Doctor to pay attention to her, which was unwelcome, but what can you do? Love stories are a necessity when writing any good story (for reasons I barely understand). It didn't take away from the episode.


It just seemed an odd comparison. Compare yourself with the Time Lords Sec, sure, go ahead.. but humanity...? You better have a damn good explanation next week.I was thinking the same thing. I mean, hasn't Earth survived ONLY because the Doctor keeps showing up in the nick of time to save it? Humans aren't superior, they've just got a superior bodyguard. Daleks need to outsource, and not to New York goons or pig-men, either.


Eh, it isn't as bad as Robots of Death. :pAnd that's not as bad as The Deathly Hallows. :sweat: I like "Daleks in Manhattan." It sounds neat and fun. But also spoilery.

The elevator reveal of the Dalek was great, with the light coming on in that little circle.

The running reference has been eluding me and I just had to peek. I have no idea what it means, but I'm eager to find out.

As a cliffhanger, this episode really works. I didn't even see the TBC coming until it was on the screen. That meant I was completely absorbed in the episode and lost all track of time, and when a show does that I know it's doing something right. Great supporting cast. I hope the second part is as great as the first.

Doctor Who #728 (3x04): "Daleks in Manhattan" - ****

To Be Continued...

[Stewie]

(Although that dancer girl is a terrible girlfriend if she couldn't recognize the guy until she was two inches away from him. His voice wasn't that different and neither was his haircut or body type.)Or if not a bad girlfriend, at least very stupid. I expected The Doctor to ask her "Seriously, you haven't yet figured all this out?"

This didn't do it for me. I'm trying to think back to the previous 2-parters and Part One always seemed to have more going on than this one. There was no threat or danger here. Just a reveal of a future threat. I expect to look back on it fondly once I've seen part 2, but for now...

And I'm getting bored with the Daleks. The Doctor can only face the greatest threat the universe has ever known so many times before I start to think that the threat isn't so great after all.

Oh hey, so this new Dalek-human meld is going without the metal case of doom, right? Then wouldn't they be vulnerable to sharp sticks and clubbing materials like all regular humans? The plunger and what-not is what makes them dangerous.

Oh, and I don't care to see any more suggestion of companions forming a romantic relationship with The Doctor. It's not fun.

[MonkeyFunk]

The plunger and what-not is what makes them dangerous.

They can always train as ninjas.

[James]

Why pig-men? It was done pretty well, and they drew some emotion into it (Although that dancer girl is a terrible girlfriend if she couldn't recognize the guy until she was two inches away from him. His voice wasn't that different and neither was his haircut or body type.) but I'm not sold on WHY pig-men. Then again, zombies have been done a million times.

Precisely. Why robo-men? Why Orgons? Daleks have always used slaves. Taking a bit of pig and adding it to man, and hell, you have a DIY Orgon! It adds a little colour to the plot and quirkiness to the visuals.

As for Tallolah, I just figured she had an inkling it was him, deep down, but was too scared from what he was saying to consciously come to terms with the obvious.


Great to see the Doctor not getting hung up on Rose and diving right into the mystery. There was that little scene where Martha apparently wanted the Doctor to pay attention to her, which was unwelcome, but what can you do? Love stories are a necessity when writing any good story (for reasons I barely understand). It didn't take away from the episode.Absolutely. I used to find Rose's "it's an excitin' adventuah, innnit?" sort of motivation demeaning to the pain, suffering and courage they experience. Martha seems far more on the level with the experience she's dealing with.


I was thinking the same thing. I mean, hasn't Earth survived ONLY because the Doctor keeps showing up in the nick of time to save it? Humans aren't superior, they've just got a superior bodyguard. Daleks need to outsource, and not to New York goons or pig-men, either.
Not unless the Daleks have encountered blundering Torchwood. I suppose the Dalek's point - if I was less glib - was that they've taken the Dalek as far as it can go and it failed. There needs to be a new element. Humanity survives like rats, maybe that's the element. Maybe. I don't think Sec is certain, but I think after so much defeat of the superior race, he's grasping.


And that's not as bad as The Deathly Hallows. :sweat: I like "Daleks in Manhattan." It sounds neat and fun. But also spoilery.
You should have seen the Radio Times front cover for spoilery.


As a cliffhanger, this episode really works. I didn't even see the TBC coming until it was on the screen. That meant I was completely absorbed in the episode and lost all track of time, and when a show does that I know it's doing something right. Great supporting cast. I hope the second part is as great as the first.Same here. Interestingly, as with "Dalek", there have been several fan attacks on the accents (and like "Dalek", there was a great deal of American actors in the show). I read many people say Tallolah (or however it's spelt) say that her NY accent was a mess, and I read a couple of NY'ers saying it was actually the sort of thing you'd hear in NY.

Any comments on that from the US crew?

[Temple Fugate]

Same here. Interestingly, as with "Dalek", there have been several fan attacks on the accents (and like "Dalek", there was a great deal of American actors in the show). I read many people say Tallolah (or however it's spelt) say that her NY accent was a mess, and I read a couple of NY'ers saying it was actually the sort of thing you'd hear in NY.

Any comments on that from the US crew?Well, I believed all of them. I wasn't sure if the director was going for over-the-top on the accents or not, since the many times I've been in NYC I never really caught those kind of accents from anyone I talked to. I have no idea if the accents really did sound like that in 1930 or not. I certainly didn't have a problem with the American accents in "Dalek."

Conversely, I showed a couple friends an episode last week ("Smith and Jones") because one used to watch the original series and one needed sci-fi indoctrination and they were both bored. They got a kick out of the British accents and wouldn't shut up about them for a good twenty minutes. I was like "Dude, I got used to it in five. Pay attention to the show!" Apparently they took it less seriously than I did just because everyone "talked funny." :sweat: That's America for you!

P.S. They still enjoyed the episode.

[Rasputin]

I suppose the Dalek's point - if I was less glib - was that they've taken the Dalek as far as it can go and it failed. There needs to be a new element. Humanity survives like rats, maybe that's the element. Maybe. I don't think Sec is certain, but I think after so much defeat of the superior race, he's grasping.

That's what I was thinking about Sec's plan. It seemed like the other Daleks were appalled at the very suggestion of tainting the superior Dalek form with human contents, but they may have felt that they had no choice. This is one of the reasons why I'm endeared to this show's interpretation of the Daleks so much. These were the most feared and powerful creatures in existence until suddenly driven to the edge of extinction. Now they're so few in number, they've been driven to desperation in a mad quest for mere survival. It's like the final months of the Nazi regime, throwing all ideology to the wind in search of that one, miraculous thing that will reverse their fortunes and make them rulers of the planet again. All of a sudden those inferior, Slavic T34 tanks look rather attractive, and that degenerate Jewish science might not be so bad after all. Defeat and the prospect of all Dalek life being extinguished has given them a new perspective of things.

And I forgot to mention, Martha is still showing excellent credentials as a better companion than her predecessor. Though I wonder if any of the Doctor's acquaintances will ever point out that his companions seem to share a certain characteristic of being female, attractive, and aged 18-25?

[Conan-san]

Martha is still showing excellent credentials as a better companion than her predecessor. Though I wonder if any of the Doctor's acquaintances will ever point out that his companions seem to share a certain characteristic of being female, attractive, and aged 18-25?

Where the hell does that put Jack, Mickey and Mr. One Hit wonder then?

[Lord Dalek]

In other news... (http://www.thefutoncritic.com/news.aspx?id=20070423scifi01)

[Lord Dalek]

Same here. Interestingly, as with "Dalek", there have been several fan attacks on the accents (and like "Dalek", there was a great deal of American actors in the show). I read many people say Tallolah (or however it's spelt) say that her NY accent was a mess, and I read a couple of NY'ers saying it was actually the sort of thing you'd hear in NY.

Any comments on that from the US crew?Aside from Tellulah (Ah its jest a pwahp!), the accents were pretty good. Ex-pats mostly...

AND HUGH QUARSHIE! YAY!!!!!!!

[Sandoz]

Yeah, Tellulah's accent was the only bad one of the bunch. It was like she was chaneling a cartoon's impression of a 30s gangster moll.

I thought this was a pretty blah episode. I thought the cliffhangar was a bit silly, especially when the hybrid was revealed and there wasn't even an ounce of slime on that nice suit.

[Temple Fugate]

In other news... (http://www.thefutoncritic.com/news.aspx?id=20070423scifi01)
Chris Regina, Vice President of Programming, SCI FI Channel, said 'Doctor Who' has become a favorite among SCI FI audiences. We are happy to bring the show back for its third season and look forward to following the Doctor's continuing adventures with his newest companion."Ya know, I hate to be cynical about this, but I heard the same kind of thing from them about MST3K, Sliders and Farscape. But that's PR for you. They're going to put up a good face until a certain number of people stop watching it or the executives start pushing politics about it, and then they'll pull the plug. At least the Doctor has the good fortune of not having his production backed by Sci-Fi.


Yeah, Tellulah's accent was the only bad one of the bunch. It was like she was channeling a cartoon's impression of a 30s gangster moll. See, I'm from upstate, and I was fooled by what I considered to be a fine 30's accent. I blame Hollywood.


I thought this was a pretty blah episode. I thought the cliffhangar was a bit silly, especially when the hybrid was revealed and there wasn't even an ounce of slime on that nice suit.The Dalek armor isn't just a life support unit. It also does dry cleaning.

[HellCat]

I'm sure there was slime. I know I saw one or two bits on the trousers.

[James]

Ya know, I hate to be cynical about this, but I heard the same kind of thing from them about MST3K, Sliders and Farscape. But that's PR for you. They're going to put up a good face until a certain number of people stop watching it or the executives start pushing politics about it, and then they'll pull the plug. At least the Doctor has the good fortune of not having his production backed by Sci-Fi.

Precisely. I think Scifi will continue to warm to Doctor Who while they don't have to take part in putting large wads of production money forward, which was the nail in Farscape's coffin.


See, I'm from upstate, and I was fooled by what I considered to be a fine 30's accent. I blame Hollywood.Well to my Brit ears, it worked. Less because I thought New Yorkers talked like that, but because, as you say, it's a genre thing.


I'm sure there was slime. I know I saw one or two bits on the trousers.

I'm surprised given the whole fantastical nature of genetic splicing, that people are focusing on none slimed trousers. If a process can bond two races, I'm sure it can keep any unneeded residue from affecting the threads.. to a minimal degree, if what HC says is correct!

[Conan-san]

I'm sure there was slime. I know I saw one or two bits on the trousers.I dunno, I was too busy being COMPLETELY HORIFIED BY THE TURN OF EVENTS thank you very much.

[HellCat]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/gallery/s3_04-05gallery/800/50.jpg
Little patches all over.

[Frozen]

This is easily the best episode this season, and it's great to see what the show can do with a better writer and more time to do things properly. It was also good to see Captain Panaka get a character to play instead of just a script (take note, George...). Also, it's always good to see the Daleks!

Not sold on the pig-men, but that's because I wanna see Ogrons come back. Also, the future of Dalek evolution not only looks like a cast-off from Space Precinct, but has a Bronx accent? Gedd outta here!

[HellCat]

Also, the future of Dalek evolution not only looks like a cast-off from Space Precinct

I thought exactly the same.

[James]

This is easily the best episode this season, and it's great to see what the show can do with a better writer and more time to do things properly. It was also good to see Captain Panaka get a character to play instead of just a script (take note, George...). Also, it's always good to see the Daleks!

Yes, I liked "Panaka" in this. I thought this was an exceptionally good piece of light drama. I'm surprised it has had such flak. I loved this.



Not sold on the pig-men, but that's because I wanna see Ogrons come back.

I guess when you don't have access to the nearest Orgon planet, pig men are the closest next best thing!

[Tinytooncrazy]

The Daleks stories are so for me they good but notwhere as good as the classic series and I want them to bring back the flamethrower daleks

[Stewie]

The Dalek armor isn't just a life support unit. It also does dry cleaning.That's the real reason behind their previous dominance in the universe. Dry Cleaning.

[Rasputin]

You know...you look at that face of his, and after a while you start wondering how good his depth perception must be...

And I say 'pfft' to the Space Precinct comparisons. Gerry Anderson would've killed for prosthetics that good.

You can see his brains! His braaaiiins!

[Frozen]

You know...you look at that face of his, and after a while you start wondering how good his depth perception must be...

And I say 'pfft' to the Space Precinct comparisons. Gerry Anderson would've killed for prosthetics that good.

You can see his brains! His braaaiiins!

RTD would kill for an ounce of Gerry Anderson's imagination, I think you'll find.

[HellCat]

FANBOY FIGHT!! *smashes case of lightsaber prop* I'll hurt you all so hard, your Tribble plush will feel it!

[Rasputin]

RTD would kill for an ounce of Gerry Anderson's imagination, I think you'll find.

...you're getting no argument from me on that score, I assure you.

Anderson is more imaginative, but RTD has the humongous budget. I don't see the conflict.

[Frozen]

FANBOY FIGHT!! *smashes case of lightsaber prop* I'll hurt you all so hard, your Tribble plush will feel it!

Hah, no fanboy fight here. If Rasputin also thinks Gerry Anderson's a genius, he's alright by me. Also, lest we forget, Rasputin is Russia's greatest ever love machine! :D

[Rasputin]

Hah, no fanboy fight here. If Rasputin also thinks Gerry Anderson's a genius, he's alright by me. Also, lest we forget, Rasputin is Russia's greatest ever love machine! :D

And lover of the Russian Queen!

Here is a cat that really is gone!

*boogies!*

...

It is a shame how I carry on...

[Frozen]

And lover of the Russian Queen!

Here is a cat that really is gone!

*boogies!*

...

It is a shame how I carry on...

Say... Didn't they put an ice-pick in your head? Or was that Leon Trotsky? I get confused. I mean, whatever did happen to all the heroes?

[Rasputin]

Say... Didn't they put an ice-pick in your head? Or was that Leon Trotsky? I get confused. I mean, whatever did happen to all the heroes?

No, I didn't get the icepick treatment. Trotsky got that in exile in Mexico, the lucky blighter.

I was the one who was poisoned, shot twice, tied to a chair, castrated and thrown off a bridge. I drowned, if I remember rightly.

However, I was later reincarnated as Alan Moore. So all is well.

[James]

No, I didn't get the icepick treatment. Trotsky got that in exile in Mexico, the lucky blighter.

... which was followed by the icepick treatment. Given your thread sparing partners name, I would seriously consider posing a question as to his involvement.

Now, wasn't the an episode to be discussed here?

[Frozen]

Sorry, Uncle Jimmy... :p

[James]

Sorry, Uncle Jimmy... :p

Sorry for the off-topicness, or for ice picking Rasputin? Come on, give it up now, the world needs the truth.

Someone asked recently was this the best Dalek story of all time, and I would say part one is a classic Dalek story back to what Dalek stories should be about. Not quite as great as Genesis (though slightly not as drawn out), or maybe as fun as Remembrance, and certainly not as brilliant as the original duo: The Dead Planet or Dalek Invasion of Earth, but beyond that, I think this was a great Dalek story. Well above, Resurrection, Revelation, Destiny, Death, Day, Planet, The Chase etc.

Here's my top 10 Dalek stories!

1. Dalek Invasion of Earth
2. The Dead Planet
3. Genesis of the Daleks
4. Parting of the Ways
5. Remembrance of the Daleks
6. Daleks in Manhattan
7. Dalek
8. Evil of the Daleks (from what I've read and what I've heard on audio)
9. Doomsday
10. The Daleks Masterplan (from what I've read)

[Frozen]

I'm definately of the opinion that the earlier Dalek stories were the best. Masterplan and Evil of are awesome (although, I do have the benefit of only having read the books. Maybe I wouldn't be so keen if I'd actually seen them! :D )

The more recent efforts are... okay, at best (but that's another thread for another time). Manhattan started well, but...

[Bones Justice]

This episode was pretty good. I like the Daleks as villains even though they simply don't seem smart enough to have been a threat to the entire race of Time Lords.

Tallulah and Lazlo just seemed to drag the story down. They should have given more screen time to Solomon because he was a much more interesting character. The pig-men looked more silly than scary but they didn't play it that way, to my dismay.

I was not a bit surprised by the resultant fusion at the end. This wasn't much of a cliffhanger. Still, I enjoyed it enough to give it three stars.

[Undrave]

I thought Tallulah's exagerated 30s accent was cute ^^;;