Shooting at Virginia Tech: Over 30 Deaths

[Jave]

It's all over the news, here's the Yahoo! Link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070416/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

I'll comment later, but man, this is just a horrible tragedy.

[Captain Zechs]

I was waiting for someone to post this, I was going to, but decided not to.


This is terrible, and I really want to know the motives, even though I am sure they will be ridiculous. I just hope he is not a student, that would be terrible.

[Kury Wagner]

I heard about this an hour or so ago. Scary stuff.

[Frank Castle]

Oh man that's horrible. I'll definitely pray for the victims and their families.

[GWOtaku]

How in the bloody hell did this nutcase get inside a student dorm armed with a gun unmolested? How in heaven's name could he not be found and be allowed to strike again? I hate to judge early, but at the moment it seems to me that this tragedy could have been far less worse if Virginia Tech had security even halfway competant. This is just horrible, I can't imagine having gone through something like this during my own college career.

[The Guitar Slayer]

I just hope he is not a student, that would be terrible.

So if he was a sexually abused young relative of a professor, that makes it better? Or if he was a mentally unstable member of the ROTC from the next town over?

It's bad no matter how you spin it, and it's useless to try and qualify what makes it "more" or "less" bad. There's 20+ bodies on the ground, and about 21 injuries so far. This sucks.

[Michael24]

Over 30 deaths? I read the story a little while ago and it said only 22 people were dead, including the shooter himself. I guess they've found more victims?

Terrible story. :(

[SilverKnight]

I just hope he is not a student, that would be terrible.Because him being a homicidal maniac suddenly makes killing 30 people and injuring about two dozen others a hell of a lot less tragic.

I'm as curious as anyone to find out who this guy was, but that, at the moment, is irrelevant. Thirty dead people and their families take precedence.

[GWOtaku]

It wouldn't be better, although if I were a student there and the killer were one of my classmates I would be even more disturbed.

I just can't understand how he was allowed to be on the loose for so long...

[Jave]

Over 30 deaths? I read the story a little while ago and it said only 22 people were dead, including the shooter himself. I guess they've found more victims?

Terrible story. :(According to the link at least 31 got killed, including the killer.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Scary stuff. Especially since VA Tech is pretty close to my school. A lot of other students were frantically calling up friends from Tech earlier to find out if they were alright.

I have a few aquaintances there, so I'm also really hoping everyone I know is alright.

This is a really terrible tragedy. 31 deaths is simply unthinkable for something like this, and simply scary.

[tb4000]

When we know what the motive is, it makes us feel better and have closure. Never knowing why he did this is what will tear people up. You can't just be like, "I'm glad that bastard is dead." Well, you can, but you don't know what was going on with him.

[Captain Zechs]

What I don't understand is how they did not stop this before the second shooting, it almost seems as if they were slacking, surely with the technology we have we could have found him, or atleast found a better way to protect the students.

[Lord Dalek]

That's horrible! I wonder how PSU is handling the news (haven't went down for class yet).

[ToOn~g@l]

Man thats scary. I hope they do find out why he did it. And it looks like we really need to make our places of education more safe for everyone. And I just realized that one of my cousins go there. I hope she's okay.

[Juu-kuchi]

Horrific. As if we need another event in which some person shoots down a school.

[Deadman]

thats terrible. i hope they rest in peace.

[Timmay]

I'm glad they killed that son of a *****.

31 dead in classrooms, 2 dead in dorms, they're not sure if the shootings are related yet.

[Bubblegum Girl]

I didn't find out about this until I got a call from my grandpa who told me about this since I have an older brother who actually attends to Virgina Tech. I was really lucky that nothing bad happen to him. It's very scary to think that my own brother could have been killed out there. I keep thinking that he should come back to the house since it's not safe at VT...I feel like now you can't be safe anywhere anymore...:sad:

[silverfox1027]

Terrible. I have a friend at VTech, and I already know that she's okay, but the thought of this happening at any university if horrifying. Nobody goes to class expecting to die.

I heard that the shooter was a grad student who found his girlfriend with another man (those 2 being the deaths in the dorm), and after that he proceeded to go on a rampage. This is unconfirmed, though.

This whole story just makes me feel sick.

[Kylewayne]

O_O! That is so sad...that is just so wrong people doing a thing like that. I mean if you have issues or something WHY must they take the lives of others. Seriously, it's becoming more and more scary to even teach or be a student in a school these days. I blame mostly security. Shouldn't their be more security so things like this shouldn't happen? Then again their is always loopholes in getting around security. This is so stressing. I feel so horrible for the students and families that had to suffer a loss.

[Ahiru-kun]

I can't believe stuff like this is still happening. Wouldn't a guy with two handguns and a vest stand out? Plus he killed himself so no justice can be done. It's especially unbelievable seeing as how we're 6 1/2 years removed from 9/11. My heart goes out to the families.

[AlltruismNervana]

The real world in America today is a sad place.

It would be better if we all voted and spoke our mindes to our elected officials, but no one sees this as productive so no one dose it, sad really!

I remember a time when people looked to the future as a bright and better place.

People just do not believe that today and I think that is what causes the higher levels of stress, and people to over react to situations.

But I am only as sure as i am of my own opinion and that is subject to change.:D you can never be too sure of anything:D

[TheDarkness]

They're gonna blame video games and sugary snacks for the cause of this.


Like always...

[AlltruismNervana]

Do you not see this comming in someone?

I know every one may be afraid of lawsuits but what were the warning signs if any?

Most people that do stuff like this do not go off with out warning .. people just did not care enough to listen or the healthcare dollars were not there for him and his family.

What price Family Mental Heathcare would be to all the families that lost loved ones?

An ouce of prevention would be worth many pounds of cure in this case!!

[Zeonic Freak]

I know a guy who is going at VT right now, i talked to my friend and he said he was on AIM a while ago and is alright. It happend the opposite side of where he was.

Im just happy that hes ok...

I hope they figure out his motive, not like the guy who shot Dimebag on stage, which is going to remain a mystery to this day...

[James Bester]

This is terrible, and I really want to know the motives, even though I am sure they will be ridiculous. I just hope he is not a student, that would be terrible.And if he's some insane random maniac, it isn't that bad? Wow, your logic continues to amaze me.

Anyway, I can't believe this actually happened. What astounds me is that the school went along with business as usual after the first shooting. If anyone even slightly suspicious enters school grounds at my high school, we go in complete lockdown. You'd think a college like Virginia Tech would be even more cautious. My thoughts and prayers go out to the unfortunate families involved in this tragedy.

[Kury Wagner]

My father and I were discussing this over dinner, and we were thinking about the enormous amount of grief this will cause. You figure, 33 died. How many people knew those 33 people? Friends or maybe just classmates? Then let's think about family, not just of the 33, but of the friends of the 33, the 25k students in general, the professors, etc. Such a massive amount of people that were, at the very least, worried for a few minutes. Then there are the people who heard only vague details and worried, like me. I only heard of a college shooting in Virginia at first, and I panicked since my boyfriend goes to college in VA. It's just amazing how dramatic such an event is.

Dad and I also were thinking of the counseling that'll be needed for some people, the fact that the school year is nearly over and how this will probably screw with a lot of grades, how the security of the college will be questioned by future and current students and family... there's just a lot at hand here.

[Dr.Pepper]

I heard that today. It was only a coicidence that we had an assembly that talked about school shootings today.

[KCJ506]

Oh, great. Look who's talking about this in Fox News right now...

(Hint: His initials are JT and he's blaming it on video games...)

[ThePeterNetwork]

What I want to know is what makes people want to acquire guns and start killing people? What possesses them to harm people in such ways? This would be my greatest fear, and I pray it never happens to me. :(

[FireWarrior]

Just heard about this. That's horrible! I couldn't believe the number when I heard it. Such a tragic event to happen.

[SirLemming]

I wish we lived in a world where things like this wouldn't happen and where nobody on television would say a freaking word about it.

[tb4000]

I'm glad they killed that son of a *****.

31 dead in classrooms, 2 dead in dorms, they're not sure if the shootings are related yet.
He killed himself, which he probably planned to do.

[DBZNarutoWarrior]

What horrible, stupid people share the earth with us. They have no right to have been here at all. It's really sad that they had to be cut down in their prime during classes, and it's really sad because some were getting ready to graduate also.

[Captain Zechs]

Although I feel it is bad that it was anyone, I feel if it were a student, the situation, specifically emotionally, would be a lot worse. What if that were your bestfriend who was the killer? Plus, if it were a student, I think a lot of kids, whom were close to said person, would feel partially guilty, as in, why didn't they know he was capable, or willing to do such a thing, or why they didn't know he was pushed into such a position where he decided to do such a terrible thing.

That is why I say I think it would be a bit worse if it were to be an actual student.

[SirLemming]

Although I feel it is bad that it was anyone, I feel if it were a student, the situation, specifically emotionally, would be a lot worse. What if that were your bestfriend who was the killer? Plus, if it were a student, I think a lot of kids, whom were close to said person, would feel partially guilty, as in, why didn't they know he was capable, or willing to do such a thing, or why they didn't know he was pushed into such a position where he decided to do such a terrible thing.

That is why I say I think it would be a bit worse if it were to be an actual student.

I get what you're saying. It's always worse to be hurt by one of your own. In the end it doesn't matter of course, but one could also say that thousands of people die every day and we don't feel bad about them... That's just the way we operate, even if it doesn't make sense; we just feel worse about certain tragedies than others. Not much you can do about it except just doing what you can to help whoever you can instead of pretending to care about everybody equally.

[BonyT]

Just been in shock about this all day --- the worst mass murder in US history, and it happened right in my back yard. I live about an hour and a half from VA Tech. Two people from my Church are associated with the university, one as a student and one who works there; my first thoughts (along with a number of my friends who called me to ask if I knew anything, or that I called, when this all started) were to find out if they were okay. As it turns out, both were home today, not even on the campus. I just can't imagine the agony of families and friends who haven't heard from their loved one on campus yet, and families who are getting calls tonight with ... news they've dreaded hearing. Wow. Don't know what to do but pray.

[Nel]

My sympathies to everyone connected to those victims.

And the shooter's just a cowardly SOB, taking himself out and avoiding justice.

And thank you, Mr. Thompson, for using the murders of over 30 people to push along your anti-videogame agenda.:shrug:

[RogueFanKC]

Nothing I can say that hasn't been said before, but likewise, my thoughts and prayers for the families and friends of the students...and yes, even the gunman's himself for he most likely has friends and family who know and love him. And unlike the other families, they will be subjected to much scorn and derision unfairly by association (and they're the ones who have to live with the fact that their son/friend committed the homicide and caused so much pain).

And I get the feeling that there will be a lot of finger-pointing in the aftermath of this, and that's the LAST thing I feel needs to happen if people need to grieve and heal. I just hope that the families of the deceased can find it in their hearts to forgive and not lash out in anger and spread the hurt around.

:crying:

Rest in peace.

[Desensitized]

And thank you, Mr. Thompson, for using the murders of over 30 people to push along your anti-videogame agenda.:shrug:
Have they even said if this idiot even played videogames before? I almost pray he didn't just so that idiot would shut up.

There was a school shooting here back at my college a few months ago and that bastard did the same thing. Yet he wonders why he's so hated.

Anyway, this is horrible news about the 33 dead.

[purplehairedwonder]

This is such a sad story. I can't imagine how scary that would be. I've tried to put myself in their shoes, thinking about if that happened on my campus and just can't do it. 33 deaths... it's so tragic.

[Mr. Pedro]

Jesus, I wasn't aware the body count had risen even higher until an hour ago. I was almost dimissing this at first as an overly-cautious shutdown of the school. That is, until the reports started flowing in.

I genuinely feel for the students, faculty and the loved ones of all those injured and killed. Nobody deserves anything like this.

[tb4000]

My sympathies to everyone connected to those victims.

And the shooter's just a cowardly SOB, taking himself out and avoiding justice.

And thank you, Mr. Thompson, for using the murders of over 30 people to push along your anti-videogame agenda.:shrug:

He was never planning to receive justice. He already knew he was going to take out multiple people and himself. Justice or owning up to it was never part of the equation. He's already done the damage.

[Executioner]

I'm glad I live in a country when these kind of things never happen.

Well, I think it is kind of sad about all of this. I wonder if it had been only one shooter. If there were more, the rest could've fled (after killing the scapegoat perhaps)

[Gatomon41]

I'm glad I live in a country when these kind of things never happen.
Sinclair's "It could Never Happen Here" then has an important message for you.

Back on topic:

It's a sad day for America. My prayers to the victims, and their loved ones.

[tucsoncoyote]

Well this isn't the first time it has happened..

Nor will it be the last... after all a lot of folks think of this as "The University of Columbine." but people tend to forget other shootings that have happened on other campuses in the past. They tend to want to blot these graphic images out of their head, as they want to make it seem that "It can't happen here.."

Well Sinclair is giving everyone a major wake up call and I'm going to show you that it can happen here, Even in a place as Remote as Tucson, Arizona.

For example: back on October 28, 2002, here in Tucson, at the University, a failing U of A nursing college student and former gulf war veteran by the name of Robert Flores, who was 40, walked into an instructor's office at the nursing department, and fatally shoots one of his instructors. A few minutes later, armed with five guns, Flores entered one of the nursing classrooms he attended, and killed two more of the instructors before fatally shooting himself in the head.

Now it's kind of funny. Everytime the body count goes higher with each shooting, other stories like this one get ignored or tossed on the back burner for weeks on end, sometimes never getting noticed at all.

But then there have been tons of shootings in schools, colleges and even 4 year universities, and everyone tend to go and "Stick their head in the sand." ignoring it with a sense of "I'm Invicible" or "It can't happen here.. Not at this University.

But if you do a little digging the real truth of the matter comes out.. There's a lot of violence in the world today, and usually I feel I must stress something here.. A lot of this violence is usually caused by the fact of stress and pressure.

For Example take the Tucson Incident.. Why did Mr. Flores Kill 3 instructors before turning the gun on himself? Well the answer is clear as the nose on your face.. He was failing in his nursing classes.. and he felt that revenge would be a dish best served up with Hot Lead...

But then so did this shooter.. According to MSNBC and NBC Proper it appears the shooter had a motive, that he was a student, and in a sense this trigger was in fact that he and his girlfriend were on rocky grounds.

Did the guy have any remorse? More then Likely not. Did he know what he was getting himself into? More then Likely he did.

Frankly this guy had it all planned out, and in the end, he got his so called "Deathwish". Odds are this guy did it because of a number of reasons. Maybe he was failing in school. Maybe others picked on him and looked down on him as a loner or someone who was in their Opinion "Creepy".

Frankly I feel today's world is too stressful, that people put way too much emphasis on college and being part of the social ladder, and being part of the cliques and circles that people live in.. This is why stories like this happen.. Day after day, day in and Day out. after all Last week an accountant in Detroit shot 2 of his bosses and killed the company's Receptionist.. all because he was fired. (and usually it takes soemthing as simple as a stressful moment to make a person 'snap'.

After all Like I said, this isn't the first, nor will it be the last.. only sooner or later, someone will do a lot more damage.. it may not be with a gun, but maybe a bomb, or god forbid if the persons who pull these stunts eventually go to the point of releasing biotoxins or even building their own little suitcase dirty bomb nukes.

Give it time people, after all this is just another note in a larger symphony of what is happening to society.. and sooner or later, folks will realize that the madness has to stop somewhere.. and maybe someone will get the idea to ease off these folks who snap.. after all It's just a case of putting too much pressure on people and making them do too many things that causes folks to go off like this.. Maybe the world needs a major Chill Pill and a two week vacation.. maybe then when stress is relieved that things might get back to normal..

of course in today's world...? This .. is Normal..

:coyote:

[Freedom Fighter]

It is sad and disheartening to wake up and the first thing I see on TV is the news about the massacre at Virginia Tech. It's horrible to hear about such things. By the time I got around to hearing some of the testimonials, including the one guy that actually got hit in the arm and was calm enough to retell what happened when the gunmen got into his classroom... it's just unreal. You don't want this happening anywhere at any university, and even if it sadly does, you never imagine something this big with this many deaths.

My heart tonight goes out to all of those family and friends who lost loved ones today. None of them deserved to have their lives tragically cut short.

[Boomhauer]

Sad ol news today yo.

[Tay the Cat]

I thought it was bad enough that Jack Thompson blamed this on video games.

I just found out Fred Phelps will be at the funerals of the victims.

[Alex Toon]

I can't believe it.
I thought that nothing would ever come close to Columbine. Unfortunately, I was wrong.:crying:

[Gatomon41]

I thought it was bad enough that Jack Thompson blamed this on video games.

I just found out Fred Phelps will be at the funerals of the victims.

I wish they just permaban both those guys from the United States. Not only are they using this tragedy to their own advantage, they're also causing further harm.

[Kury Wagner]

I thought that nothing would ever come close to Columbine. Unfortunately, I was wrong.:crying:Columbine didn't tally that many victims, though. What, 20-some people were injured, 15 died? I mean, yeah, that's still like whoa, but I guess I have issues registering it as huge.

[Eidan]

I think it's a sad reflection on the world at large when someone thinks of the number of people who died in Columbine, and make their deaths seem somehow less significant because more people didn't die with them.

That being said, I'm still wondering if the Virginia Tech shootings will have the cultural impact that Columbine had. Since the shooter was 23, you most likely won't hear as much criticism leveled at the media.

[Kury Wagner]

I think it's a sad reflection on the world at large when someone thinks of the number of people who died in Columbine, and make their deaths seem somehow less significant because more people didn't die with them.The way I think is very fact-based. I'd prefer if you didn't cut on me because I made a statement about a statistical fact. I never said that Columbine was a petty event. I just said I have personal issues thinking of it as a massive tragedy. Certainly it was a big deal, on many levels.

[Malex]

Being two hours away from Tech, I really feel for all of those students. Even if we are rivals, many of us UVA students are donning orange and maroon today as a symbol of remembrance. This also really hit home since my cousin is an Engineering major at Tech, but she was fine. Many family members throughout the world called my parents and myself to make sure I was okay. It didn't help that CNN called it a "Virginia Massacre." Sadly, this was, nonetheless, a massacre. My Wahoo heart goes out to those Hokies.

[JLApe]

The shooter had serious issues.

"You Caused Me to Do This" (http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=73958)

[Captain Highwind]

I'm really getting tired of the news putting cheesy background music to this story. It makes it sound like they're mocking the tragedy rather than treating it seriously.

[XOMiss_Samantha]

This is just horrible. It just can't belive how low and disgusting mankind can be. It makes me angry that I walk the same earth as some one who could do such a terrible crime. My heart and prayers really go out to the family and friends of those who were lost.

[Ishtar]

I've seen all bout this shooting over the news. I feel sorry for the students that lost their friends and the familes that lost their children. It's a shame incidents like these happen.

[Rolling Cloud]

I'm really getting tired of the news putting cheesy background music to this story. It makes it sound like they're mocking the tragedy rather than treating it seriously.

I agree with this! The BGM really is cheesy! The music is done by somebody called the: "Hidee Tidees!"

[Jedah Dohma]

I found out about online while I was at school yesterday. This is truly disheartening. On my way home, I told my mom about this and she was horrified. Truly a tragic day.

My condolences go out to the family and friends that have lost their loved ones in this horrible incident.

[Kitschensyngk]

I just found out Fred Phelps will be at the funerals of the victims.

Oh, great. As if the victim's relatives didn't have it bad enough without picketers telling them that it's their fault this happened.

Why do some people feel the need to capitalize on tragedies like this? We should all just be left to mourn the deceased without newsmen shoving cameras in their families' faces while politicians blame video games and rap music and religious nutjobs say that it happened because God hates you.

[Kagetsu]

These things are horrible. It's peoples points of view seen through their own prism that scares me more. There are organizations running training camps to teach young men how to kill unarmed civilians in just this manner, except they have AK-47 and grenades. But it's America's "gun culture" that causes this tragedy. I believe civilians allowed to legally carry firearms can help defeat crime. But I don't believe it can prevent it.

People believing that this nut case did it because he was upset at wealthy Americans. Please, people who do this are complete wackos and anything they make up in their heads will justify it to them. It has nothing to do with video games or corporate abuse of the environment.

I'm glad now after Columbine, police go in after the shooter rather than hiding behind their cars waiting to negotiate. I'm very glad for people like the professor that had been a holocaust survivor. At the cost of his life, held the door while his students escaped through the windows.

I'm disturbed at people hiding under their desks. Dropping low to the ground is good, but a desk isn't going to stop a 9mm round. But I fully understand that most people will freeze in bad situations.

And they want to attack the 2nd amendment. If the 2nd Amendment were carried to the letter. Every ablebodied male would be required to maintain a combat ready M-16, submit to periodic inspections and go to training once a month. Don't pretend it means a National Guard.

[WolfieKiwi]

Found out yesterday when I got home. I'm angry at the principle for not closing down the school after the first shooting... but then again, I don't really know much about the situation he/she was in during the time.

Several news channels broadcasted the memorial at VA Tech. It was heartbreaking watching all the sad faces... My condolences to all the victims and their famlies.

[tucsoncoyote]

The shooter had serious issues.

"You Caused Me to Do This" (http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=73958)

Well JLApe, that's just one part of the larger picture here, and in fact MSNBC even shows another side (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18155081/)of this person who killed 32 people.

And from what I can see, and have read about this article this one really needed help bad, and yet everyone ignored him. That's right Ignored him. If someone had come forward, and said, "Hey this person needs help", I think something might have been done.

But since our society tends to ignore the dangers around us, this really is what society deserved.. a rather rude wake up call.

Now I'm not saying that the 32 victims are evil here, in fact no one really was. But a lot of things could have been done if people had noted the warning signs..But again Like I said, society in general tends to ignore these things until it goes over the line.

After all this even is very similar to our shooting in Tucson at the U of A nursing school in October of 2002, where our shooter had issues as well. So in the end no one did anything here as well, and the end was very much the same, only on the smaller scale..

But this? This shows that people need to stop being ignorant and oblivious to today's world.. After all this guy could have been stopped but no one recognized what happened until it was way too late.

So in a way this is a harsh lesson, and in fact it could have been stopped.. but society in a way failed this person, and in the end, he ended up ending 33 lives..

Also I have to point out something.. A person like this was suffering what I like to call "Irrational Rationality". This is a case when someone thinks killing is okay until they realize what they did.

Then rather then taking responsiblity they tend to take the cowardly way out by committing suicide or by having the cops kill them (Death By Cop is the term).

Most folks don't want to take responsibilty for their actions and this was just another part of a larger equation.

so in the end, things could have been done, but sadly they were not, and 32 folks got taken to the hereafter by a person who needed help. and no one stepped forward to do something.. Could have, should have, would have.. Six words that didn't stop a person from hurting others.

Nuff Said.

:coyote:

[SilentBat18]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html

some more info... and i would like to say that this scares the crap out of me 'cause well, i'm an RA in one of the dorms on campus and we have problems with unidentified people being let up into the residential floors of the building. there were countless reported incidents of sexual offendors, predators and evena bank robber at one time passing through our campus. You never know when it might turn ugly. my condolences and sympathy to all the victims' families; i can't imagine how it may feel to lose someone dear to you in such a tragic way.

[Elven Moon]

I have a childhood friend who goes to that school. She is fine, but a friend of hers was injured in the shooting. As I grew up in Virginia, I could have very easily gone there :crying:

I want to say I feel terribly sad, but frankly this sort of thing doesn't shock me anymore.

[JLApe]

Well JLApe, that's just one part of the larger picture here, and in fact MSNBC even shows another side (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18155081/)of this person who killed 32 people.

And from what I can see, and have read about this article this one really needed help bad, and yet everyone ignored him. That's right Ignored him. If someone had come forward, and said, "Hey this person needs help", I think something might have been done.

But since our society tends to ignore the dangers around us, this really is what society deserved.. a rather rude wake up call.

Now I'm not saying that the 32 victims are evil here, in fact no one really was. But a lot of things could have been done if people had noted the warning signs..But again Like I said, society in general tends to ignore these things until it goes over the line.

After all this even is very similar to our shooting in Tucson at the U of A nursing school in October of 2002, where our shooter had issues as well. So in the end no one did anything here as well, and the end was very much the same, only on the smaller scale..

But this? This shows that people need to stop being ignorant and oblivious to today's world.. After all this guy could have been stopped but no one recognized what happened until it was way too late.

So in a way this is a harsh lesson, and in fact it could have been stopped.. but society in a way failed this person, and in the end, he ended up ending 33 lives..

Also I have to point out something.. A person like this was suffering what I like to call "Irrational Rationality". This is a case when someone thinks killing is okay until they realize what they did.

Then rather then taking responsiblity they tend to take the cowardly way out by committing suicide or by having the cops kill them (Death By Cop is the term).

Most folks don't want to take responsibilty for their actions and this was just another part of a larger equation.

so in the end, things could have been done, but sadly they were not, and 32 folks got taken to the hereafter by a person who needed help. and no one stepped forward to do something.. Could have, should have, would have.. Six words that didn't stop a person from hurting others.

Nuff Said.

:coyote:A product of an extremely dysfunctional, if not abusive or unhappy, family perhaps. Had to be, for someone to repress all his emotions till adulthood.

But c'mon, I've been through that. Even carried much of the angry, bitter, resentful feelings throughout my college years, though not too much in depression. But I don't end up murdering people.

He *should have* gotten help as early as middle school.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Well JLApe, that's just one part of the larger picture here, and in fact MSNBC even shows another side (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18155081/)of this person who killed 32 people.

And from what I can see, and have read about this article this one really needed help bad, and yet everyone ignored him. That's right Ignored him. If someone had come forward, and said, "Hey this person needs help", I think something might have been done.





Not necessarily. You still have to convince the person to go seek help. A few suspect ravings and an obsession with violence isn't enough to get the police and the mental hospital to come knocking down the door and taking him away.

And it's human nature that a person isn't going to feel inclined help you unless he or she is close to you. I truly doubt this guy had many "close" friends anyway. (But then neither do I, which again shows that there are so many people out there who may fit the a similar "profile" as these killers but aren't violent people at all)

The problem with the "don't blame guns, blame society" idea is that it offers absolutely no solutions except those based on a few neatly categorized generalizations. There have been abnormally violent people since the dawn of humanity. This is a fact. If you're going to root out each and every one of them based on a few assumptions and "models" you're going to be on a wild goose chase for a long, long time.

[tucsoncoyote]

Not necessarily. You still have to convince the person to go seek help. A few suspect ravings and an obsession with violence isn't enough to get the police and the mental hospital to come knocking down the door and taking him away.

And it's human nature that a person isn't going to feel inclined help you unless he or she is close to you. I truly doubt this guy had many "close" friends anyway. (But then neither do I, which again shows that there are so many people out there who may fit the a similar "profile" as these killers but aren't violent people at all)

The problem with the "don't blame guns, blame society" idea is that it offers absolutely no solutions except those based on a few neatly categorized generalizations. There have been abnormally violent people since the dawn of humanity. This is a fact. If you're going to root out each and every one of them based on a few assumptions and "models" you're going to be on a wild goose chase for a long, long time.

So you would rather ignore the problem and look the other way and let folks like this just run around in society like ticking timebombs until something sets them off? After all this guy didn't need to use a gun (After all Guns are easy to accquire and use), but he could have used really any destructive device depending on what his talents were. If he were a nursing student, this student could have purchased any CDC related material (Be it smallpox or anthrax or any biotoxin), and used that against the people. If he had experience in Say Chemistry or nuclear physics, then a simple homemade bomb, or a dirty suitcase nuke isn't out of the possibility.

In short he (the Shooter) was an english student, to him, anything was possible and he searched for the easiest way to take out as many people as possible without doing much physical collateral damage.. but what's to say that the next time this happens, someone won't come up with one of these more 'creative ideas'.. after all it's just a small step from purchasing guns to that of building your own homemade bomb (anyone can find that info on the internet today don't you know..)

but eh, that's your opinion.. but yes he should have sought help, in fact one of the teachers did suggest it.. but by him not taking the advise, well the end result is the same, and is totally moot.

:coyote:

[The Guitar Slayer]

This guy has been in trouble before, and his writing was a big, big hint to the people around him. That's why he was referred for counseling. That meant he was given a slip of paper that said, "Go. Take care of yourself. Talk to a doctor, someone who can help you." And he made the choice not to. You can dam up a river so that the horsie has a nice manageable stream to sip from and you can take him over there with a nice little swirlie straw, but you can't make that thing drink unless he wants to.

I'm a bit more miffed that they let this guy buy a gun in the first place. We're so 'OMG TERRORISTS' around here, and just because the guy isn't Middle Eastern, we let him buy a gun. Because he doesn't fit the profile of a threat, we let him have the gun. I would love to see my flatmates from Dubai try to buy a gun in Virginia (of all places, ha). If one set of people can't buy guns because they aren't US citizens, then anyone who isn't a US citizen should not be able to buy a gun in this country -- be it Ethiopia, Japan, New Guinea, New Zealand, or even Sweden. I thought the rules applied to everyone? Or was that something that expired when I was in 3rd grade?

Anyway, the college made a big, big mistake in by saying, "Oh, we thought it was just a domestic thing at first so we didn't tell anyone til 2 hours later....like right when the guy took out the engineering building."

You have two corpses in your dorms...and you don't tell anyone because it's "domestic"? Like, man and woman arguing over who didn't do the dishes? So if it was over relationship problems, two dead bodies really don't garner any notice. But when it's a senseless massacre that you can't hide from your potential students and investors, yep, time to pay attention.

That sort of scares me. A lack of respect for two individuals who are just as dead as the ones that went down in the big spree.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

So you would rather ignore the problem and look the other way and let folks like this just run around in society like ticking timebombs until something sets them off? After all this guy didn't need to use a gun (After all Guns are easy to accquire and use), but he could have used really any destructive device depending on what his talents were. If he were a nursing student, this student could have purchased any CDC related material (Be it smallpox or anthrax or any biotoxin), and used that against the people. If he had experience in Say Chemistry or nuclear physics, then a simple homemade bomb, or a dirty suitcase nuke isn't out of the possibility.

In short he (the Shooter) was an english student, to him, anything was possible and he searched for the easiest way to take out as many people as possible without doing much physical collateral damage.. but what's to say that the next time this happens, someone won't come up with one of these more 'creative ideas'.. after all it's just a small step from purchasing guns to that of building your own homemade bomb (anyone can find that info on the internet today don't you know..)

but eh, that's your opinion.. but yes he should have sought help, in fact one of the teachers did suggest it.. but by him not taking the advise, well the end result is the same, and is totally moot.

:coyote:

Essentially the implications of what you're suggesting is that anyone who fits the profile of a killer--I'm talking personality, not just personal record--should be hauled in and shaken up until they admit they need help. The problem is that this isn't feasible because a: it's a violation of individual rights and b: under this system, many people who DON'T deserve this treatment are going to be hauled in and subjected to this as well. How many people on this very forum love Halo, or FPS vide games? I'm willing to be a lot. And judging by the people complaining about these Senators attacking video games, I'm betting that they don't want to be hauled in for playing Counterstrike or Halo all the time. But to institute a system that you're suggesting would have to entail this very idea. Because then we're trying to "help" people based on a few assumptions of what a potential killer is like.

Let's face facts. People who say tightening gun control won't help argue that these people will find ways to get weapons to do it anyway. People who say weeding out society by finding these guys won't help will argue that there are too many people to weed out anyway, and it's too tough to really identify who will kill and who is just a harmless eccentric. And so it goes.

Don't get me wrong. I sympathize with your idea. IMO it's definitely better than those people saying "let's give EVERYONE a gun and make America the Wild Wild West!" I just see too many obstacles to it working effectively.

[JLApe]

It would have been simpler if he was a juvenile. 'Cos if he refused (to go for help), his parents would have to be called in. But he's an adult - 23 years old - and therefore has the right to refuse help. The right to get him to do anything against his spoken decisions expired after he turned 18.

How did he go through high school with nary an incident?

[KCJ506]

It appears that Dr. Phil has joined in on the Jack Thompson bangwagon.

Link (http://gamepolitics.com/2007/04/17/dr-phil-blames-video-games-for-virginia-tech-massacre/)

[Zeonic Freak]

I was with my friend watching NCSU Wolf Tv, and for filler for the next couple of hours, they aired a program called "Zune", which the first 20 min is the focus of Virgina Tech Police.

We were like "oh god, this isnt the best time to show VT officers doing thier job", so one guy there called the tv station saying "hey, you know what your playing?". We were like "im pretty sure there showing/interviewing the people who died, oh boy."

They gotta felling there getting some complaints tommorow, if the hand full of people were still watching.

Talk about Irony...

[tucsoncoyote]

Essentially the implications of what you're suggesting is that anyone who fits the profile of a killer--I'm talking personality, not just personal record--should be hauled in and shaken up until they admit they need help. The problem is that this isn't feasible because a: it's a violation of individual rights and b: under this system, many people who DON'T deserve this treatment are going to be hauled in and subjected to this as well. How many people on this very forum love Halo, or FPS vide games? I'm willing to be a lot. And judging by the people complaining about these Senators attacking video games, I'm betting that they don't want to be hauled in for playing Counterstrike or Halo all the time. But to institute a system that you're suggesting would have to entail this very idea. Because then we're trying to "help" people based on a few assumptions of what a potential killer is like.

Let's face facts. People who say tightening gun control won't help argue that these people will find ways to get weapons to do it anyway. People who say weeding out society by finding these guys won't help will argue that there are too many people to weed out anyway, and it's too tough to really identify who will kill and who is just a harmless eccentric. And so it goes.

Don't get me wrong. I sympathize with your idea. IMO it's definitely better than those people saying "let's give EVERYONE a gun and make America the Wild Wild West!" I just see too many obstacles to it working effectively.

Now you are trying to put words in my mouth that I didn't speak. and that is almost like calling the kettle black here.

But the point is this. This guy was an English Major, and luckily for us he wasn't a science major. After all If I can think of possible ways of taking out people, what's to stop the next person from taking out a group of people with say oh, A bomb? Not that much if they sure in tootin' have an IQ to produce explosives with their Intelligence.

Also the Biotoxin threat? Also Very real. After all Anyone can put a request into the Centers for Disease Control who's a up and coming doctor or a nurse and then decide to use the biotoxin for their own nefarious purpose.

Heck even someone who can drive, can turn a car into a lethal weapon.. all they need to do is learn how to drive, and in fact I've seen some 10 year olds drive rather well for their age.. Let's see them get their license (they usually do.)

But the point is this, I'm not saying ban guns, I'm not saying Let society take control of everyone's life here, but I'm saying Society needs to do more then just sit with it's head in the sand like an ostrich, and do diddly squat about issues of this nature. A lot of times people who usually ignore the warning signs usually end up dead... that's what I'm saying here.. Get your head out of the sand and keep alert cause who knows.. the next time someone might pull off something I suggest.. then I can hear folks say, Geez Tuc, don't say that!

Ah well thems the breaks world..

:coyote:

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

But the point is this, I'm not saying ban guns, I'm not saying Let society take control of everyone's life here, but I'm saying Society needs to do more then just sit with it's head in the sand like an ostrich, and do diddly squat about issues of this nature. A lot of times people who usually ignore the warning signs usually end up dead... that's what I'm saying here.. Get your head out of the sand and keep alert cause who knows.. the next time someone might pull off something I suggest.. then I can hear folks say, Geez Tuc, don't say that!

Ah well thems the breaks world..

:coyote:

No, I understand what you're saying, and I wasn't putting words into your mouth, I was just elaborating on what I think would REALISTICALLY happen given the implications of your IDEA (not your opinion). Like I said, the idea is fine--but finding a workable system for your idea is tough. That is what I'm saying.

Either way, I don't know what your calling kettle black comment meant. If I was accusing you of saying something you weren't, then that would be just that, and that's fine. I just don't see where my doing that would contradict what I'm saying...and I certainly haven't accused you of putting words into my mouth either.

[Burgundy Ranger]

I'm sorry. When you read quotes from gun shop owners such as:

Roanoke Firearms owner John Markell said his shop sold the Glock to Cho in March. The serial number had been scratched off, but federal agents traced it to the store using a receipt found in Cho's backpack.

"It was a very unremarkable sale," said Markell, who did not handle the sale personally. "He was a nice, clean-cut college kid. We won't sell a gun if we have any idea at all that a purchase is suspicious."How in the Sam Hill is he gonna know who's suspicious and who ain't? We can't be letting such value judgements rest in the hands of shop owners who -- and I can't say it's so in this case, but it's true in general -- are only out to make a sale?

Then it's time to come to the cold realization that it IS the insanely high ease of availability to buy these weapons.

No background check? No waiting period? Unconscionable. But that's the way the NRA and other gun lobbies want it and they're too big (for their britches) to be challenged or convinced otherwise.

I know many, many responsible gun owners who do everything the right way. My dad and grandfather hunted every winter. (I have my father's rifle to this day -- won't ever buy ammo for it, it's strictly a family memento)

Until now, I've understood how wrong it would be to 'penalize' the ones who get it and follow every last guideline for storage, safety, security, use, etc.

But I gotta say it's time for them to have to take a step back and have things be a little more difficult for them if it means keeping semi-automatics out of those who have no business having one.

We've seen too many times that we won't ever 'change the people.'

It's time to change how/when/IF they get a gun.

[Tay the Cat]

I'm sorry. When you read quotes from gun shop owners such as:
How in the Sam Hill is he gonna know who's suspicious and who ain't? We can't be letting such value judgements rest in the hands of shop owners who -- and I can't say it's so in this case, but it's true in general -- are only out to make a sale?

Then it's time to come to the cold realization that it IS the insanely high ease of availability to buy these weapons.

No background check? No waiting period? Unconscionable. But that's the way the NRA and other gun lobbies want it and they're too big (for their britches) to be challenged or convinced otherwise.

I know many, many responsible gun owners who do everything the right way. My dad and grandfather hunted every winter. (I have my father's rifle to this day -- won't ever buy ammo for it, it's strictly a family memento)

Until now, I've understood how wrong it would be to 'penalize' the ones who get it and follow every last guideline for storage, safety, security, use, etc.

But I gotta say it's time for them to have to take a step back and have things be a little more difficult for them if it means keeping semi-automatics out of those who have no business having one.

We've seen too many times that we won't ever 'change the people.'

It's time to change how/when/IF they get a gun.
Well, this has more to do with the state of Virginia than anything. Someone who lives there told me they don't have strict gun rules.

[Gatomon41]

Just attended a vigil for the victims. I also suggest a prayer (if you so practice). I think everyone is at a shock, and there are alot of people tramuatized by this incident. It's best to talk to friends anf familly to make sure they have anxienties and reassure them.

[FireStarterLE]

This is an image I put together from others I've found and have been using it on my FaceBook and MySpace. I think these words are nice in a situation like this, describing not only what the victims went through but the whole community and their families and friends and everyone else:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a283/FireStarterSE/crying.jpg?t=1176870531

[JLApe]

Now you are trying to put words in my mouth that I didn't speak. and that is almost like calling the kettle black here.

But the point is this. This guy was an English Major, and luckily for us he wasn't a science major. After all If I can think of possible ways of taking out people, what's to stop the next person from taking out a group of people with say oh, A bomb? Not that much if they sure in tootin' have an IQ to produce explosives with their Intelligence.

Also the Biotoxin threat? Also Very real. After all Anyone can put a request into the Centers for Disease Control who's a up and coming doctor or a nurse and then decide to use the biotoxin for their own nefarious purpose.

Heck even someone who can drive, can turn a car into a lethal weapon.. all they need to do is learn how to drive, and in fact I've seen some 10 year olds drive rather well for their age.. Let's see them get their license (they usually do.)

But the point is this, I'm not saying ban guns, I'm not saying Let society take control of everyone's life here, but I'm saying Society needs to do more then just sit with it's head in the sand like an ostrich, and do diddly squat about issues of this nature. A lot of times people who usually ignore the warning signs usually end up dead... that's what I'm saying here.. Get your head out of the sand and keep alert cause who knows.. the next time someone might pull off something I suggest.. then I can hear folks say, Geez Tuc, don't say that!

Ah well thems the breaks world..

:coyote:You're also missing a point here. This guy refused help. They tried (everything short of use of force). You acknowledged it too in a previous post. But he's too reclusive and distrusting to take them up on it. Had they tried harder, he would still refuse.

The reality is: you are not exactly like the next person. Nor do you carry the mental and emotional baggage the alleged shooter has. Do you? You can't read anybody's mind either. So how would you know what the next person is thinking? You have no way knowing it any more than knowing when the next road accident is going to happen.

Just because a person is capable of violent thoughts does not mean that person has to act on them. 'Can' does not 'will'. Unless you're telepathic.

[Executioner]

Just because a person is capable of violent thoughts does not mean that person has to act on them. 'Can' does not 'will'. Unless you're telepathic.

Mad men hear no reason. Especially when they have a loaded gun in a hand and were sorrounded by targets (example: students)

I'll take a more radical approach and say he should've been lobotomized. He was really dangerous. I wonder why the teachers didn't send him into a clinic if they knew a long time ago that he was unstable.

[Antiyonder]

People believing that this nut case did it because he was upset at wealthy Americans. Please, people who do this are complete wackos and anything they make up in their heads will justify it to them. It has nothing to do with video games or corporate abuse of the environment.

I'm glad now after Columbine, police go in after the shooter rather than hiding behind their cars waiting to negotiate. I'm very glad for people like the professor that had been a holocaust survivor. At the cost of his life, held the door while his students escaped through the windows.

The fact that the professor was a civil decent human despite going through a holocaust just makes me feel contempt for the shooter. If a holocaust survivor can keep it together than, there is no reason to flipout just because you can't deal with the "trials and tribulations" of the social world.

[tucsoncoyote]

Well, this has more to do with the state of Virginia than anything. Someone who lives there told me they don't have strict gun rules.

That's very true, especially in Virgina. In the case of the suspect all he did was break out a credit card, and 3 forms of identification (One being his driver's license, another his greencard and the third being a bank check with his account # on it, and after filling out the paperwork to run a background check this sale was in fact done in just 10 minutes.

Now a couple things that could have altered this outcome was if one of these people this shooter was "Stalking" had filed a complaint against him or had him charged with a misdemeanor, would have the check returned such results (and the Virgina State Police (VSP) would have kept an eye on this guy a lot more closely..

Now the interesting thing is that no one reported his stalking, and in fact no one even pressed charges (and charged him with a misdemeanor.

In short, he was cleaner then most saints.. on a good day..

What's doubly ironic here is that the gun store that sold him the Glock 19 actually had 32 video cameras on the premises.. 32... but how did this guy get away with it? He didn't commit his act til 36 days after he purchased his weapon. (the Store I might add had only enough video recording for just 30 days... So you see, here is another case where he's not even on the tape, let alone having any sort of a criminal record.

In closing this whole thing really was at a point where the guy goes in and is all innocent, but just 36 days later, he comes out to be the Devil's Hellspawn. Just because of a couple of issues that never should have happened.. but still did..

so in the end, he got away pretty darn scott free, and killing himself? he left very little other then his writings and his screenplays and even his disturbing notes to leave behind.. to let us all sort out this mess.. and in fact he left one other thing behind... 32 dead bodies, and his own lifeless corpse..

pretty darn 'clean' if you ask me..


Mad men hear no reason. Especially when they have a loaded gun in a hand and were sorrounded by targets (example: students)

Well the same holds true to those that strap a bomb to their chest and walk into a crowded public place just to detonate it just to see how many people they can take out in one shot. and if the person had the right tools, they could do it quite nicely with a small suitcase style "Dirty bomb nuke.." Real nice thought there don't you think?


The reality is: you are not exactly like the next person. Nor do you carry the mental and emotional baggage the alleged shooter has. Do you? You can't read anybody's mind either. So how would you know what the next person is thinking? You have no way knowing it any more than knowing when the next road accident is going to happen.

True, but then do you know what I am thinking? What your neighbor's thinking? what the guy down the street is thinking? It makes you wonder.. after all the guy living next to you could turn out to be the next Charles Manson, or Ted Bundy. The teenager down the street who's skateboarding could turn out to be the next Eric Harris , Or Dylan Klebold, The friendly quiet guy who lives down in the next block could be ending up the next Killer who takes out an entire family (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16991099/) just for the kicks of it..

Don't say you do know because in reality you don't.. but then still you shouldn't look the other way either.. after all by ignoring issues at hand, things like this can and will happen. that's all there is to it.


Just because a person is capable of violent thoughts does not mean that person has to act on them. 'Can' does not 'will'. Unless you're telepathic.

Or you're the one that's pointing the gun.. or has that bomb strapped to his chest.. then you just can throw that logic out the window, and again it becomes moot. after all it all depends on whether you are the one pointing the gun, or if you are the one on the receiving end. and when you think of it that way, that says a lot.


:coyote:

[Nobuyuki sama]

That's very true, especially in Virgina. In the case of the suspect all he did was break out a credit card, and 3 forms of identification (One being his driver's license, another his greencard and the third being a bank check with his account # on it, and after filling out the paperwork to run a background check this sale was in fact done in just 10 minutes.
He would have had just as easy a time in Arizona, you know.

What's doubly ironic here is that the gun store that sold him the Glock 19 actually had 32 video cameras on the premises.. 32... but how did this guy get away with it? He didn't commit his act til 36 days after he purchased his weapon. (the Store I might add had only enough video recording for just 30 days... So you see, here is another case where he's not even on the tape, let alone having any sort of a criminal record.

I have no idea how that's relevant. Mind clarifying your meaning?

[tucsoncoyote]

He would have had just as easy a time in Arizona, you know.

Well if our so called shooter had a nuclear weapon instead of a gun in his possession, and he was going to the University of California in Chico California, and had detonated it, all he would have gotten slapped with is a $500 Fine.(It's on the lawbooks!) (http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/california/?page=20)



I have no idea how that's relevant. Mind clarifying your meaning?

Certainly.. The store where he purchased the firearm (The Glock that is), had 32 video cameras that were connected to a single recorder.. however since the recorder "Recycles" it's tape after just 30 days, and since he purchased this weapon 36 days ago.. he wouldn't have been on the tape at all for that store.. so in a way, his purchase would have been dismissed...and thus it wasn't until the ATF guys showed up at the store where he purchased this gun did the owner even know about it. so in a way, they should just make recorders that keep track in stores like these for up to 3-6 months at a time rather then just 30 days.

:coyote

[Damien]

Well, I'm not all that surprised. There are a lot of crazy, stupid people out there, and they all snap eventually.
I think one big problem here is that there were two hours between the shooting in the dorms and the shooting in Norris Hall. Two...hours. Where was that lockdown after the first shooting was reported? Do they not have University Police? Even then, two hours is plenty of time for local law enforcement to get on that.
All that's left to do at this point is to pray for the families of the victims.

[Nobuyuki sama]

Certainly.. The store where he purchased the firearm (The Glock that is), had 32 video cameras that were connected to a single recorder.. however since the recorder "Recycles" it's tape after just 30 days, and since he purchased this weapon 36 days ago.. he wouldn't have been on the tape at all for that store.. so in a way, his purchase would have been dismissed...
Considering it was a perfectly legal sale at the time, I don't see why the store owner would have given two figs about it afterwards in the first place.
Besides, there's a state-mandated (http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=va#records) paper trail. Video evidence is unnecessary.

[tucsoncoyote]

Considering it was a perfectly legal sale at the time, I don't see why the store owner would have given two figs about it afterwards in the first place.
Besides, there's a state-mandated (http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=va#records) paper trail. Video evidence is unnecessary.

That's true but then of course the perpitraitor (who bought the gun) still got it. Also it's funny because tonight on both Fox and CNN, they interviewed the Gunshop owner and in fact one comment struck me as funny, and it was what the gun shop owner said, (And I'm going to Paraphrase it here:


We have a lot of denials every day. and even if they are clean, I wouldn't sell a gun if I smelled alcohol on the buyer's breath.

Now don't you find it ironically funny that he could have said no to the buyer and watched their reaction, yet for someone who is drunk they wouldn't sell a gun to them?

Also Like I stated earlier even a Car can be used as a Weapon, and this is going off the beaten path here for a moment, but if you didn't hear, the New Jersey Governor who was driving an SUV with a Legal limit of Alcohol in his blood (.10 Blood Alcohol Level), had an accident that almost ended his life as he sped down the Jersey Turnpike at 91 mph?)

it's funny you can't sell a gun to a drunk, but he can still get behind a wheel of 2 tons of Solid Metal and send it hurtling down the highway at 91 mph, and impact with a number of people possibly killing them and injuring them.. and then getting back on topic here.. it's amazing what a a small 124 grain slug can do travelling at 0.9 mach (that's 500+ mph) for all you folks out there who aren't scientists).. after all think about it this way...

Ke=0.5mv^2

or Kinetic energy equals one half the mass times the velocity squared.. so think about it.. a 124 grain slug traveling at 500+ mph has the same impact force roughly as 2 tons of metal traveling at just 91 mph..give or take the math of today's world.

but when you think about it, either way if you're hit by either one... you're dead. pure and simple.

:coyote:

[The Guitar Slayer]

It's as I said above -- do you really think a student from the Middle East would have had the same access to the gun as this guy? Nope. Rules are enforced and applied unfairly.

[Hanshotfirst113]

This redefines sad and heartbreaking. I'll keep everyone involved in my prayers, and hope that someday they can all heal in some way. Make you wonder...

[Zeonic Freak]

Ive had this thought for a while...

How does a full time college student afford a gun in the first place? let alone 2!?!?

I mean, he must have had a job over the christmas break and worked his butt off, but think about it, would paying 57whatever dollors to buy a gun be on your list of things to buy other than food, drinks, books, and other college kids needs?

And where did he get the second gun? He just bought the Glock from the gun store right? id like to hear where he got the second gun...

Also i heard something interesting last night on the Jonn and Jeff show on talk radio, one of them said that sums everything up "You just dont know what a crazy person is going to do."

So yea, no where is safe anymore, but its nothing to cower and worry over, if you time is up, its up...

[tb4000]

Mad men hear no reason. Especially when they have a loaded gun in a hand and were sorrounded by targets (example: students)

I'll take a more radical approach and say he should've been lobotomized. He was really dangerous. I wonder why the teachers didn't send him into a clinic if they knew a long time ago that he was unstable.
Because people act like that all the time. How many kids do you know that do the whole goth/emo lifestyle, write poetry and plays like that, etc.? Yet you think they're harmless.

[Hanshotfirst113]

Because people act like that all the time. How many kids do you know that do the whole goth/emo lifestyle, write poetry and plays like that, etc.? Yet you think they're harmless.

Sometimes they are. It's a tricky tightrope to walk; I mean, I've written about some pretty depressing stuff and suffered from depression, but I'm not the type of person who'd hurt anyone.

[tucsoncoyote]

related Link(s): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/

Well then this puts everything into perspective and another piece of this puzzle falls into place.

So in a way both incidents are now connected.. The First incident in the dorm rooms and the second at Norris Hall (where the slaughter started) now has a crucial piece of the puzzle.. and it explains why he was missing or not seen for 2 whole hours.

The shooter was "Mailing a package to his local NBC News Studio.....

Don't you just love it that now this explains a lot... He kills 2 people in the dorm, goes back to his dorm room, arms himself to the teeth, takes a package he has put together, and sends it off in the mail to the local NBC Television station, then returns loaded for bear, and starts his 30 person slaughterhouse.

Gives a New meaning to the words, "Going Postal"... Literallly.

Also it's amazing that this guy didn't go storming after his rampage to that News station and Pull off a "David Horowitz" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Horowitz_(consumer_advocate)) hostage play by forcing a newscaster to read a statement on air and then shoot him with a real gun.

So now that the FBI has the tapes, photos, and the rambling notes, we can now get a better look into what this guy was thinking.. and from what I'm reading right now, this boy was troubled, and blamed the rich for his misery..

but seriously when you get to this point, it explains a lot and yet it opens new questions for authorities to ask...and to examine.

:coyote:

[Zeonic Freak]

Hey guys i got another question or imput that i heard on my local rock radio. What if other student had concealed weapons to defend the school, and if that were in affect, what would the outcome be like if the VT thing did happen?

Im saying this as certain students who vollenter/or pose as students (like rookie cops or certain people from the military that fit in the college age group) to carry a concealed weapon with them to protect other students incase a shooting were to happen.

The only negitive thing about this is, people dont trust someone with a gun unless they have a badge with them, even though constitutionally everyone who is a legit citizen in the US has "the right to bear arms". So to protect everyone, these kinds of people would not wanna tell everyone they have a gun then add "naw man its cool, im here to protect you", so they would have not tell anyone (unless they fully trust a friend) that they have a weapon/part of this program to carry one.

I personally like the idea, and i think it can have a better affect if a shooting were to happen, as in less lives lost, as in zero i would wanna assume...

[tucsoncoyote]

And now I'm going to add some more info in from my last post..

Did He (Cho) actually Seek Help? No.. but then if you look at the article I posted, here's a new little twist.. and I'm going to quote it right here..straight off the page:


As early as (November) 2005, police and school administrators were wrestling with what to do with Cho, who was accused of stalking two female students and was sent to a mental health facility after police obtained a temporary detention order.

The two women complained to campus police that Cho was contacting them with “annoying” telephone calls and e-mail messages in November and December 2005, campus Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said.
Cho was referred to the university’s disciplinary system, but Flinchum said the woman declined to press charges, and the case apparently never reached a hearing.

However, after the second incident, the department received a call from an acquaintance of Cho’s, who was concerned that he might be suicidal, Flinchum said. Police obtained a temporary detention order from a local magistrate, and in December of that year, Cho was voluntarily but briefly admitted to Carilion St. Albans Behavioral Health Center in Radford, NBC News’ Jim Popkin reported.

Now here's is yet another piece of the puzzle answered.. This kid was trouble from the word go, and in a way he could have been stopped at least 2-3 times..(Once each with the women whom he harassed (and he could have been charged with a Misdemeanor), but neither woman wanted to press charges. (So that's one potential spot where this could have been stopped.

the other was at the point where police obtained that detention order and they could have kept him in check there (but legally any behavioral Center can legally hold a patient for just 72 hours unless a doctor or psychiatrist deems the patient to be a "Threat to himself or Society."

Now then this story goes on further:



To issue a detention order under Virginia law, a magistrate must find both that the subject is “mentally ill and in need of hospitalization or treatment” and that the subject is “an imminent danger to himself or others, or is so seriously mentally ill as to be substantially unable to care for himself.”

According to a doctor’s report accompanying the order, which was first reported by the Richmond Times-Dispatch, Cho was “depressed,” but “his insight and judgment are normal.” The doctor, a clinical psychologist who was not identified, noted that Cho “denies suicidal ideations.”

And if you look at that last underlined and bolded Comment here's the problem.. Cho Denied he had suicidal ideations. yet in the end he harmed himself and 32 other people. Just because he "Denied" he had this problem.


This same comment goes on further:


Under the law, the magistrate could have issued a stronger detention order mandating inpatient treatment, but there was no indication Wednesday that such an order was ever entered.

So this now brings up a very good point.. Legally the doctors at the Behavioral Facility could legally hold him there for just 72 hours then let him go provided that he proved no further problems and wasn't a threat to himself or others.

Yet if they so chose, the Legal system could have kept him in check with a stronger order deeming him mentally ill or disturbed and he could have been kept there until such a time where he would be deemed no longer a threat..

So what does this mean? It means that maybe the Mental health system of 30 years ago was a logical step, but now that Mental health has degraded so much, it makes you wonder how did this system really fail? Or worse, Why didn't the people he was stalking, didn't act on their own actions. Either option would have stopped him from this incident..(Also I have heard that Cho had some issues with the law including going 44 in a 25 zone (A simple Speeding ticket).

But in the end, only way we can figure this out is to let the FBI run their investigation and see why this happened.. that's really all we can do now.

But just think about this.. For almost 17 months this time bomb was ticking and when it went off it killed 33 and injured at least 15.. a horrible price to pay for a failed medical and legal system.
:coyote:

[Peter Paltridge]

related Link(s): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/

Well then this puts everything into perspective and another piece of this puzzle falls into place.

So in a way both incidents are now connected.. The First incident in the dorm rooms and the second at Norris Hall (where the slaughter started) now has a crucial piece of the puzzle.. and it explains why he was missing or not seen for 2 whole hours.

The shooter was "Mailing a package to his local NBC News Studio.....

Don't you just love it that now this explains a lot... He kills 2 people in the dorm, goes back to his dorm room, arms himself to the teeth, takes a package he has put together, and sends it off in the mail to the local NBC Television station, then returns loaded for bear, and starts his 30 person slaughterhouse.

Gives a New meaning to the words, "Going Postal"... Literallly.

Also it's amazing that this guy didn't go storming after his rampage to that News station and Pull off a "David Horowitz" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Horowitz_(consumer_advocate)) hostage play by forcing a newscaster to read a statement on air and then shoot him with a real gun.

So now that the FBI has the tapes, photos, and the rambling notes, we can now get a better look into what this guy was thinking.. and from what I'm reading right now, this boy was troubled, and blamed the rich for his misery..

but seriously when you get to this point, it explains a lot and yet it opens new questions for authorities to ask...and to examine.

:coyote:

What a sick nut. His rant is long, confusing and Gaara-like in tone, he accuses all the members of society he doesn't care for as being "responsible" for everything he's about to do, and he refers to the Columbine kids as "martyrs."

[tucsoncoyote]

What a sick nut. His rant is long, confusing and Gaara-like in tone, he accuses all the members of society he doesn't care for as being "responsible" for everything he's about to do, and he refers to the Columbine kids as "martyrs."

And yet here's the flip side to your statement here Martianinvader. He may have been what you call a 'Sick nut' as you call him, blaming the world for all his problems, yet in the end it was the world who was trying to help him and force him to seek treatment and yet it was he, himself, who refused treatment of any sort.

Yet in the statements I made, the people who failed him the most were the women who should have pressed charges (and failed to do so), against him for stalking (thus forcing some disciplinary action here by the university), and maybe forcing the school to have the magistrate realize the issue at hand
and urge a firmer 'detention order' forcing him into in-patient treatment at the mental health facility. Yet another mistake made was the fact that the resident psychologist failed to note that the denial of suicidal ideation doesn't mean that he wouldn't do it.. usually when someone denies suicidal ideation it means sometimes that the person is beyond the point already.

so in the end by not keeping Cho in check by a simple detention and a missed couple of chances this person was left to simmer for 17 months until his disturbing behavior finally exploded... and yes here is a guy who even called Klebold and Harris as Martyrs.. rather disturbing indeed.

:coyote:

[Executioner]

I'll say it again: Lobotomy. Great madness just requires a small chop, or tubes in the nose.

[Zeonic Freak]

The Photo NBC got along with everything else:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/ChoSh.jpg

[tucsoncoyote]

The Photo NBC got along with everything else:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/ChoSh.jpg

Including this one: http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Slideshows/_production/ss_070418_NBC_VATech/ss_070418_vatech_tease2.300w.jpg

Shows you how "Mentally Stable" this guy is..

After all Pictures don't lie... Only politicians are allowed to do that.

:coyote:

[Chris Wood]

Another question is where were the guy's parents in all this? They don't live that far away. They should have been all over him the first time one of these incidents occurred.

[tucsoncoyote]

Another question is where were the guy's parents in all this? They don't live that far away. They should have been all over him the first time one of these incidents occurred.

I think I might have a theory here Chris, and it deals with the issue that these parents (like Most parents today) can't be with their children, or even keep an eye out on them. (The reason being is that today's economy here in the states has really forced parents to be working nearly constantly to help keep their kids "Comfortable."

so in a way I doubt there might be anything the parents could have done. or even if they could have, remember that the guy was 23, an Adult. so even if his parents had forced him into a Mental health center, all he had to do was prove to the psychologists/Physchiatrists that he wasn't suffering from "Suicidal Ideaations" or that he wouldn't hurt others..

so there is that potential answer.

Edited Note: Now here's something that is also rather insane... and this was on tonight's Larry King.

The owner of the gun store that sold the shooter the Glock 9, legally, had to shut down his store's website after he got 200 or so emails from people who were 'threatening him with bodily harm', and in fact it's ironic... People who are against guns are 'threatening' this guy with 'bodily harm'.. That proves that we as Humans are indeed not intelligent. (and I feel sorry for being one.)


:coyote:

[Peter Paltridge]

"The parents are to blame" is one of today's knee-jerk responses to tragedies, but we have to remember nothing is ever that simple. They can contribute, but sometimes there's nothing they can do.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2007/02/21

Gabe's post from a weary mother of a crazy kid is an excellent read. The things he did to her and others who tried to help him is awful, and there was nothing they could do about it. (Warning: There's some bad words, but it's PA--you knew they'd be there.)

[Chris Wood]

"The parents are to blame" is one of today's knee-jerk responses to tragedies, but we have to remember nothing is ever that simple. They can contribute, but sometimes there's nothing they can do.

Sure, but the question is what did the parents do in this case? I haven't heard that reported yet.

[tucsoncoyote]

Sure, but the question is what did the parents do in this case? I haven't heard that reported yet.

Actually Chris the real question is not what did the parents do in this case? but rather instead what 'could' they have done? I think in this case because of the fact that the person in question is 23 and a young adult suffering from mental issues, not a very lot. After all when you are 18, and you're old enough to vote, to drink, to join the military, you really don't have to follow your parent's rules.

In fact the only thing the parents could have done would have been to consult with a qualified psychologist/psychiatrist/psychotherapist, and in fact had the young man deemed "Mentally incompetent". But then the trick here is to find someone who is qualified as a competent Psychologist/Psychiatrist/psychotherapist, and to get them to do that.

After all Mental Health Rehabilitation today has taken a simplistic turn when it comes to issues like this. The issue at hand is for the mental health system to diagnose the issue, and try to treat the issue with medication/therapy. But the real trick for this is to try and diagnose these problems properly. Once that is done, the only other thing is to stabilize the patient with proper medications, and to do so after al long set of trial and error drug experimentations. (How do I know this? Well I'm part of the issue here, and it's taken the folks that I deal with almost a decade to find the proper medications to keep a person like me in check.)

But then the issue is this: Should we just treat all mentally ill patients with medications? Absolutely not. Though I will say this. Most Mental Health Services believe in a way that all solutions should be just fixed with Drugs. that in itself isn't the answer.. You just can't expect person A or B to take a specific Drug and expect it to work. You have to sit down with them and ask a lot of questions.

But I will also say this.. Psychiatrists are just doctors who tend to think that medicating a person is the answer, when therapy of all types are just important as well.

So in a way did the Mental health issue fail this person? Actually no. why? Because the person in question didn't seek treatment on his own. Only once was he treated (and subsequently released) because someone was concerned about him (A roomate if I recall correctly).

But if the psychologists and psychiatrists had spotted this issue and had made a better decision perhaps this incident might not have happened. but in the end, because of bad judgement calls on the part of the Mental health system, this person literally slipped "Under the radar" so to speak, so in the end, this was the result.

Pretty cut and dry I feel.

:coyote:

[Chris Wood]

However 23 is not very old in a Korean family, in which parents usually wield a lot of power. I knew a 40-something Korean couple living in the U.S. and the husband's parents were always ordering them around.

[tucsoncoyote]

However 23 is not very old in a Korean family, in which parents usually wield a lot of power. I knew a 40-something Korean couple living in the U.S. and the husband's parents were always ordering them around.

Right but this is the United States and Not South Korea Chris. and in fact it's our own, "If you're 18, you're an adult" attitude that gives this idea little meaning. He's 23, he's an adult here in the US, so guess what.. He can do anything he wanted to.. include kill people.

(And you wonder why some folks want to raise the voting age limit and the drinking limit to 21? There's your answer.)

:coyote:

[Kaoru]

Well now I know that his gf was a b**ch and he was a crazed religious fundamentalist. Put the 2 together and you get 32 innocent deaths.

[tucsoncoyote]

Well now I know that his gf was a b**ch and he was a crazed religious fundamentalist. Put the 2 together and you get 32 innocent deaths.

Okay now why was this non-sequitor comment made? After all what I see is completely different from what is being told. Also do you have proof to back up your statement / Commentary? After all if you don't then why the comment?


Also it appears that the shooter exhibited signs that are considered "Common Place" for describing a school shooter:

1. Rather then "Snapping" this person bought a gun up to 5 weeks before he committed the act. In Fact the Glock 19 was bought some 36 days prior to the event. So this is part 1 of the equation.

2. The Shooter (Cho) was considered a threat by others but didn't implicitly make any threats outright (this is part two of this equation)

and

3. Fellow students and teachers raised concerns about his behavior. which includes things like asking him to go seek help, the stalkings and in fact even the temporary hospitalization by a court order.

These inferences can be found in this article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18175525/).

(So there's my proof), what makes your statement hold up?

:coyote:

[Kaoru]

Just watch the news - They're showing a tape he sent to media where he's comparing himself to Jesus Christ suffering and setting an example etc. He also says he did this because of his girlfriend who made 'them' suffer.

[James]

"The parents are to blame" is one of today's knee-jerk responses to tragedies, but we have to remember nothing is ever that simple. They can contribute, but sometimes there's nothing they can do.



I would hardly say it's knee jerk. Given parental nuture is one of the largest factors in shaping our personalities, no one should ever underplay that card, but yes, there comes a practical point when you can't be expecting to simplify any such situation into a finger pointing game. Life isn't that simplistic.

That said, if we are going to be a finger pointing culture, I'd rather fingers pointed at a legitimate influential factor - like the parents - than the real knee jerk I'm waiting to come out of this: he watched CSI once a week/enjoyed playing Metal Gear Solid 3/he watched Child Play 3 when he was 13/listened to Linkin Park/smoked cigarettes three times a day etc.

I'm sure it won't be long before the media decide on a suitable circumstantial target to focus social and political confusion.

Afterall, someone has to be blamed in a simplistic outlet of frustration - and it might as well be a media or lesiure product as that will take the onus of the social and political bodies to have to change some aspect of how they bring up kids/look at the access to dangerous weapons/restructure the outlook on mental care/accept in a high pressure society that some people will snap etc.

[tucsoncoyote]

Just watch the news - They're showing a tape he sent to media where he's comparing himself to Jesus Christ suffering and setting an example etc. He also says he did this because of his girlfriend who made 'them' suffer.

Related Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/

True, but then if you read or have looked at his manifesto you note a pattern when he starts comparing himself to that of 'Eric (Harris) and Dylan (Klebold)' (who were the gunmen in the Columbine shooting in 1999, and if Harris and Klebold had been alive would have been the same age roughly as Cho).

You also note the fact that he has a rage against the "Upper Crust" of society, calling them "Hedonistic" and that in fact if he was trying to compare himself to Jesus Christ, then he really was not following a pattern. Also his commentary rambled on and didn't specify any one person or groups of persons (Unlike Klebold and Harris, who blamed specific Cliques in Columbine).

In fact, Cho's actions were such that it was very "Generic" in nature in some areas, yet it doesn't say in his statement that he blamed his 'so called' Girlfriend or anything of that nature. In fact what you see here is a young man who is angry at the world and thought that he deserved more then being felt like he was the "Loner" which he was.

What I see in this is in fact a very angry and upset young man who is nothing more then a child who is spoiled in nature, who wanted things to go his own way, and in a sense when things didn't go his own way, he literally took matters into his own hands and decided that he would in essence become Judge, jury and Executioner all in one shot.

Add to that his list of victims: Everyone ranged in age from as young as 18 to as old as their mid 70's. One was a Person who was in ROTC, another was an Architectural Engineer, and another was a holocaust survivor (one of the professors who was killed).

In short for someone who blamed the upper crust of society took a hard stance and killed in a 'very generic' way.

Also Like I said in my last post, Cho didn't just suddenly snap, but had been planning this for days if not weeks. (up to as many as 36 days in advance.)

The final say is this: If this young man was sane then why write an 1800 word manifesto that rambled on the issues of the upper crust of society then why did he kill generically... in short, this is the only issue I see that fails to meet a specific issue. His Comments are random in some areas, and yet logical and thought out in others. and in fact it's also ironic that he denied having suicidal ideations yet wanted everyone dead? This suggests to me as a person who is starting to suffer from some sort of anti-social or sociopathic behavior.. and that in itself can be a danger if left unchecked.

But until the FBI can start asking some serious questions there are really no clear 'cut and dry' answers. Only more questions.

:coyote:

[Roman Legion]

Well now I know that his gf was a b**ch and he was a crazed religious fundamentalist. Put the 2 together and you get 32 innocent deaths.Yes, let's all start blaming religion / lack of religion, now. I'm sure it'll be productive.

Just watch the news - They're showing a tape he sent to media where he's comparing himself to Jesus Christ suffering and setting an example etc.I'm not quite sure that comparing yourself to Christ in that way is strictly "fundamentalist" in nature, personally. Not on its own, at least.

--Romey

[DBZNarutoWarrior]

Police found a threat on a computer at my school, so they closed 4 towns down for investigation. Apparently it was from a student a few years ago, and he said, "He has changed his ways." But the file he made had todays date for a threat and he made it two or three years ago. So now I don't have school today, or tomorrow (for safety precautions). I don't really know why people even make threats, let alone act on them. Stupid people.

Also we're going to have a speaker (the brother of the first person killed at Columbine) come in in two weeks to talk to us. This was planned before todays discovery, so it's not related to that threat.

[The Guitar Slayer]

the other was at the point where police obtained that detention order and they could have kept him in check there (but legally any behavioral Center can legally hold a patient for just 72 hours unless a doctor or psychiatrist deems the patient to be a "Threat to himself or Society."

Which they didn't deem fit. This happened over a year ago, not a few days or even a few months or even within a YEAR of these events. I very much doubt the person that went on the rampage was the same person who stalked women or existed in November 2005. Are you the same person you were in November 2005? If you're about my age, I'd hope not; psychological maturation is happening until about 28.

What I'm not seeing the connection about is the stalking and the mass killing. Stalking is very focused attention on a person. Just one. It's very intense. Someone that meticulous and interested about someone or something is not the same person as one who just blindly kills 30+ people. There's a lack of care and a lack of discretion -- an impersonalness that does not fit. Yes, he did plot this all out, but the "execution" (pardon my terminology) is not as neat and as tactical as a stalker's would be.

The lack of fastidiousness makes me wonder if this guy suffered a straight-up psychotic break after the holidays. Seriously. He has all this money (enough to buy the guns) after Christmas and near the start of the new semester, and something just flips a switch inside of him. I don't know what that "something" would be, but it seems he totally went off the deep end.


And if you look at that last underlined and bolded Comment here's the problem.. Cho Denied he had suicidal ideations. yet in the end he harmed himself and 32 other people. Just because he "Denied" he had this problem.

Suicide =/= homicide. Wanting to off myself doesn't mean I would ever off someone else. Self-harm and hatred is usually in relation to feeling that everyone else in the world is better without you or is just better than you, period. Doing what he did, it's indicative that this view someone switched around -- everyone else is defective, not him. He denied he had the suicide problem at the time. I don't know where the change from self-harm and fixation to warpath murder took place, but it's clear it took place.



So what does this mean? It means that maybe the Mental health system of 30 years ago was a logical step, but now that Mental health has degraded so much, it makes you wonder how did this system really fail?

Remember, the mental health system of 30+ years ago recognized homosexuality as a disorder, did not recognize Aspergers and other such autism spectrum disorders, did not have as many diverse treatments for problems such as ADD and ADHD and even depression, and at times still advocated the lobotomy and sterilzation for the "genetically unsuitable." The same cases that champion rights for the mentally ill are the same ones that let Cho make his own choices. He refused help, and it was his right. People didn't have these rights to refuse back then.


Or worse, Why didn't the people he was stalking, didn't act on their own actions. Either option would have stopped him from this incident..

They were victimized. It's the same reason that people don't report rape -- even though it is not their fault, they still feel as if they "let" this happen. "If I had fought harder" or "if I had just did something else that night instead" -- it's the shame of violation. Even if it's not physical, the emotions that go with it are real.


(Also I have heard that Cho had some issues with the law including going 44 in a 25 zone (A simple Speeding ticket).

So you go to traffic court and either appeal it or pay it off. Most people who drive get one of these things sooner or later.


But just think about this.. For almost 17 months this time bomb was ticking and when it went off it killed 33 and injured at least 15.. a horrible price to pay for a failed medical and legal system.

Uh, no. The medical system worked -- it respected his rights in regard to his treatment. He was an adult then too -- he made his choices, and because he wasn't a raving lunatic, they had to let him go. They had no reason to think he would go out and hurt himself or anyone else --

AND HE DID NOT. For 17 months. That's a long time. The way he shifted from a focused target to just widespread bloodshed indicates some sort of event mentally happened. He snapped. He lost it, totally. In his own deranged way, he "planned" this all out and took pretty pictures. Someone who hates himself as much as he did wouldn't have taken these glorifying shots. He became superior, not inferior, for some reason. Hence my advocation of a psychotic break after the holidays.

The legal system worked too. He paid his debt to society via a speeding ticket, and the girls who he had problems with dropped their charges. Innocent until proven guilty. Sorry.

Not everyone who has had legal and mental problems like he did has this as an end result. If it did, we'd have a lot more corpses lying around. People lose it every day, but the thing here is that when he went, he went supernova.


Yet in the statements I made, the people who failed him the most were the women who should have pressed charges (and failed to do so), against him for stalking (thus forcing some disciplinary action here by the university)

Don't blame victims just because they aren't dead. There is a guilt and shame aspect to all of this, as well as the social stigma -- it's just like blaming an unreported rape victim. It's dispassionate and disrespectful of what happened to them. "Oh, but they're not dead!" Would that make you sympathize with them more?


usually when someone denies suicidal ideation it means sometimes that the person is beyond the point already.

I'm not suicidal.



(slashes wrists)

Faulty logic. Sometimes, people really aren't suicidal. Just depressed. I've met a few of them.


But I will also say this.. Psychiatrists are just doctors who tend to think that medicating a person is the answer, when therapy of all types are just important as well.

I've worked with psychiatrists. Part of that little problem is that a) the parents want a simple little pill rather than a regimen that they have to make their kid follow; b) the person wants a little pill so they don't have to do too much legwork; c) psychiatrists can prescribe medicine -- psychologists and therapists can't, so why isn't the person going to the nonprescribers if they don't want medicine?



That said, if we are going to be a finger pointing culture, I'd rather fingers pointed at a legitimate influential factor - like the parents - than the real knee jerk I'm waiting to come out of this: he watched CSI once a week/enjoyed playing Metal Gear Solid 3/he watched Child Play 3 when he was 13/listened to Linkin Park/smoked cigarettes three times a day etc.

They've already started to do this; a few newspapers in London have associated a few of the pictorial shots with the 2004 Korean film Oldboy. From what I've seen, the pictures could have been based off of any film in the genre (from Unleashed to Sin City) -- it's just because the guy's Korean that they've decreed "OMG, Oldboy made him do it!!!!111"

[Captain Zechs]

Wow. This guy is a creep, his letters are so sadistical. I just want the media to stop plastering his face on the news, and rather put more respect towards the victims...

[Zeonic Freak]

Right but this is the United States and Not South Korea Chris. and in fact it's our own, "If you're 18, you're an adult" attitude that gives this idea little meaning. He's 23, he's an adult here in the US, so guess what.. He can do anything he wanted to.. include kill people.

(And you wonder why some folks want to raise the voting age limit and the drinking limit to 21? There's your answer.)

:coyote:

Trying telling that to this girl that helps out at my youth who is Chinese and shes 20, in college but living at home with her mother who doesnt want her near any guy who isnt chinese. Plus she cant help out at our church because her mother says its "too far" since our churched moved, yet she has her own car...

But, she is seeing a black guy on the side. Well... that a topic of discussion another time...

But yea, what is your input on this idea?
http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=2500750&postcount=98

[tucsoncoyote]

Which they didn't deem fit. This happened over a year ago, not a few days or even a few months or even within a YEAR of these events. I very much doubt the person that went on the rampage was the same person who stalked women or existed in November 2005. Are you the same person you were in November 2005? If you're about my age, I'd hope not; psychological maturation is happening until about 28.

that's one person's POV, and in fact that's moot, after all sure he may not have been the person he turned out to be, but still why would a killer comment about a related incident citing "Dylan and Eric" are Martyrs' to the next part of the Same Diatribe stating "THe Rich are evil". if that suggests that he's a sane person, then give me the crow and I'll consume it. (also if you look over the other reports the news have made, this person wrote very disturbing and very graphic stories, complete with vulgarities and obscenities that really make you wonder, what's going on inside this person's head.


What I'm not seeing the connection about is the stalking and the mass killing. Stalking is very focused attention on a person. Just one. It's very intense. Someone that meticulous and interested about someone or something is not the same person as one who just blindly kills 30+ people. There's a lack of care and a lack of discretion -- an impersonalness that does not fit. Yes, he did plot this all out, but the "execution" (pardon my terminology) is not as neat and as tactical as a stalker's would be.

But then neither really is stalking, and we have to look at some stalkers (who were sex offenders and who kidnapped people and then terminated other persons lives. Did they think out killing a person or was that just "Spur" of the moment. (After all Most of these folks aren't always "Focused on their victim(s)" and in fact that too is not clean and tactically swift. So that too renders this comment moot as well.


The lack of fastidiousness makes me wonder if this guy suffered a straight-up psychotic break after the holidays. Seriously. He has all this money (enough to buy the guns) after Christmas and near the start of the new semester, and something just flips a switch inside of him. I don't know what that "something" would be, but it seems he totally went off the deep end.

But then that would violate this article's commentary (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18175525/) about how a Shooter is and in fact this guy had the warning signs all around him.. Perhaps again you forget that in the article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18175525/) it states :


He didn’t “just snap” but instead acquired the weapons weeks earlier.

If you just look at this one comment that says it right there in black and white. Cho didn't 'just snap' he planed this out at least up to 6 weeks in advance. In fact Eric (Harris) and Dylan (Klebold) planned out their Columbine shooting for almost over a month. so this fits that pattern quite nicely. If a Person suddenly 'just snapped' then there would be larger telltale warning signs and in fact this person wouldn't have been able to do what he did with such precision and deadliness. (So again moot).


Suicide =/= homicide. Wanting to off myself doesn't mean I would ever off someone else. Self-harm and hatred is usually in relation to feeling that everyone else in the world is better without you or is just better than you, period. Doing what he did, it's indicative that this view someone switched around -- everyone else is defective, not him. He denied he had the suicide problem at the time. I don't know where the change from self-harm and fixation to warpath murder took place, but it's clear it took place.

Ah now we come to the point that does make sense and in fact i highlighted the words in your comment here that i can agree upon. Namely the fact that he thought everyone else was defective and he was perfect. which suggests to me what psychologists call "Visions of Grandeur" Usually when someone thinks they are perfect and everyone else is flawed, it sends a clear signal to the psychologist that in reality the person is suffering from a "Reality check" or that they are thinking unrealistic thoughts. A person like that that thinks in that type of way tends to lose touch on reality and if it was left untreated then the person can go into what i call "Full Blown Psychosis" Where their reality is absolutely right, and everyone else's view of the world is wrong. This in itself is a warning sign, and most psychologists/Psychoanalysts/psychiatrists take this very seriously as a threat to not only the person suffering from the delusion but also those around him. That's the only thing we can agree upon here at this point. but remember He didn't just "Snap" here he took his time and methodically planned his actions for well over 5 if not 6 weeks.


Remember, the mental health system of 30+ years ago recognized homosexuality as a disorder, did not recognize Aspergers and other such autism spectrum disorders, did not have as many diverse treatments for problems such as ADD and ADHD and even depression, and at times still advocated the lobotomy and sterilzation for the "genetically unsuitable." The same cases that champion rights for the mentally ill are the same ones that let Cho make his own choices. He refused help, and it was his right. People didn't have these rights to refuse back then.

Good point, but still he did get ordered by a magistrate to get help, and in a way he fooled (or rather lulled) the psychologists into a false sense of security. in fact in every commentary I have read, the Psychologist thought that Cho denied suicidal ideations, yet if you look at his writings it screams volumes here, I know most people are not psychologists (be it with a degree or even an armchair variety but believe me, when you look at his one play where his commentary is scathingly distubing it makes you wonder, why on earth most instructors and faculty didn't pick up on this. so there we have another question to ask.


They were victimized. It's the same reason that people don't report rape -- even though it is not their fault, they still feel as if they "let" this happen. "If I had fought harder" or "if I had just did something else that night instead" -- it's the shame of violation. Even if it's not physical, the emotions that go with it are real.

Granted, but still they were the victims and not the person who victimized them. This is how and why a lot of cases dealing with Sexual offenders usually get off the books, especially those who are having some form of spousal abuse. In short the victim feels they brought it upon themselves to reap this punishment but if after the fact that they realized that they were victimized instead perhaps things will be realized, but until they themselves can change their thought patterns they will keep with the issue of them being the ones that did the crime, rather then the one that was victimized here.. But yes good points here..


So you go to traffic court and either appeal it or pay it off. Most people who drive get one of these things sooner or later.

That's very true, but if you continue to read the stories here, Cho got this ticket just days before he carried out his crime. and in fact I think that maybe this might have been (and I stress Might have been), the triggering event that did finally cause him to do what he did. (I've seen cases where people kill themselves becase they were in accidents that at the worst broke noses, or even slight injuries. But someone like Cho getting a ticket just 4 to 5 days before this event? I think they would feel that the world is out there trying to get them. and when you mix in the Delusions of Grandeur, it makes you wonder if this was indeed the trigger that finally sparked this issue.


Uh, no. The medical system worked -- it respected his rights in regard to his treatment. He was an adult then too -- he made his choices, and because he wasn't a raving lunatic, they had to let him go. They had no reason to think he would go out and hurt himself or anyone else --

and yet here we have this psychologist saying Cho denied his "Suicidal Ideations" and let him go. that was a brilliant move don't you think? After all when a prison lets a sex offender go, and people hear about it you should see how many folks go nuts because they realize or find out that this person is in their neck of the woods and around kids. Oh sure the Former Prisoner has rights alright but then do the children or the adults that this person hurt?

But then like you said, they respected Cho's rights, but then again did they (the people who let Cho go) respect any of Cho's 32victims' rights to live? Apparently not.


AND HE DID NOT. For 17 months. That's a long time. The way he shifted from a focused target to just widespread bloodshed indicates some sort of event mentally happened. He snapped. He lost it, totally. In his own deranged way, he "planned" this all out and took pretty pictures. Someone who hates himself as much as he did wouldn't have taken these glorifying shots. He became superior, not inferior, for some reason. Hence my advocation of a psychotic break after the holidays.

Granted. But then again you have to wonder what triggered this so called Break. And I highly doubt it was because of a domestic dispute. (Though I will say that sometimes Domestic Disputes can and will sprial out of control if the authorities are not on it. (and apparently they weren't). But then again how could the authorities know, let alone do anything here. After all remember you said in your own words that all of these people were respecting his (Cho's) rights, but in the end did anyone really respect the rights of his victims? When you can come up with a plausible answer for that, get back to me on it.


The legal system worked too. He paid his debt to society via a speeding ticket, and the girls who he had problems with dropped their charges. Innocent until proven guilty. Sorry.

So then you say 32 dead bodies is a form of innocence? Try to put that one up in a court of law, and see what it gets you. The lawyers would probably laugh anyone out of court for that commentary. (and in fact Like you said, Innocent till proven guilty.. the moment he pulled the trigger and he killed the first two victims? He was guilty as sin.. and he didn't stop till he took 32 other persons lives.. then when the reality set in and he realized what he had done, well he took the cowards way out.. Oh yes, he was innocent alright...32 times over dead wrong on all counts..


Not everyone who has had legal and mental problems like he did has this as an end result. If it did, we'd have a lot more corpses lying around. People lose it every day, but the thing here is that when he went, he went supernova.

All the glory, all the wonderment of a person who has gotten his 15 minutes of glory (or rather his 1 day of glory), and now he's dead.. along with 32 other people. Sometimes though why take out someone who you didn't know just for the heck of it? It seems that was a shallow commentary that would get anyone killed. But then sure he went out like a Supernova.. but then so did Dylan (Klebold) and Eric (Harris) and you saw the results of that fall out. so in a way, he (Cho) got his reward and has now left an indelible mark on humanity. But Like I said, Cho's not going to be the first, nor will he be the last.. this is just another chord in a longer drawn out symphony.


Don't blame victims just because they aren't dead. There is a guilt and shame aspect to all of this, as well as the social stigma -- it's just like blaming an unreported rape victim. It's dispassionate and disrespectful of what happened to them. "Oh, but they're not dead!" Would that make you sympathize with them more?

Well then did Cho even sympathize with his victims as he snuffed out their lives and they didn't have a choice? I guess then that would be an unqualified 'yes'.


I'm not suicidal. (slashes wrists)

Faulty logic. Sometimes, people really aren't suicidal. Just depressed. I've met a few of them.

And sometimes those who say they are suicidal and who suffer from faulty logic, tend to crave attention the most. that's their expression of their cry for help. So yes Faulty Logic is good, it's a way for them to cry help. (But sometimes that cry never comes. and that is the dangerous angle of this.)


I've worked with psychiatrists. Part of that little problem is that a) the parents want a simple little pill rather than a regimen that they have to make their kid follow; b) the person wants a little pill so they don't have to do too much legwork; c) psychiatrists can prescribe medicine -- psychologists and therapists can't, so why isn't the person going to the nonprescribers if they don't want medicine?

That's one I'm not going to touch here.. in fact I won't even comment on this one.


They've already started to do this; a few newspapers in London have associated a few of the pictorial shots with the 2004 Korean film Oldboy. From what I've seen, the pictures could have been based off of any film in the genre (from Unleashed to Sin City) -- it's just because the guy's Korean that they've decreed "OMG, Oldboy made him do it!!!!111"

Well I will say this: At least let's see the Anti-gun folk try to argue that a hammer or a knife isn't a weapon and a gun is.. In fact there are a number of ways he could have killed, Poisons, Biotoxins, Garroting with piano wire, bombs, and even hammers, and baseball bats. Even cars count.. so like I said, let's see how all these so called "Anti gun folks try to explain this, and say, "Oh a hammer isn't a weapon!" this will be a real hoot.


But yea, what is your input on this idea?
http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=2500750&postcount=98

My thoughts on this are that if they had "Undercover security as suggested by the commentary, then there would have been a plus, but also anyone who was undercover could have been mistaken as another shooter and thus it would have gotten ugly. so it makes you wonder.. if this had been the case would the death toll been lower? or higher? And finally one final comment. Anyone within 21 feet of the shooter could have subdued him. that in itself shows how the difference could be.. but I'm still undecided on this one. But if it would have made a difference then maybe it would have made a difference, but until this is put into practice this won't be known.


:coyote:

[ThePeterNetwork]

I wrote a piece about how violence has affected our world on my Livejournal (google it). The only other thing I can add to this is eventually, the Powers that Be are going to look down upon this world, shake their collective heads, and make all the humans disappear in a brilliant flash of blinding light.

[The Guitar Slayer]

that's one person's POV, and in fact that's moot, after all sure he may not have been the person he turned out to be, but still why would a killer comment about a related incident citing "Dylan and Eric" are Martyrs' to the next part of the Same Diatribe stating "THe Rich are evil". if that suggests that he's a sane person, then give me the crow and I'll consume it.

You're missing my point. I'm not saying he was sane at the time of the shootings. I'm just saying he was not psychotic in 2005 as he was when he made this videos, took the photos, and carried out the murders. He was not off his nut in November 2005. If he had been, we would have seen something spectacular back then. When someone goes off the deep end, it's usually within 6 months to a year that they have a ballistic incident or something significant that ends with them being hospitalized or committed.


But then neither really is stalking, and we have to look at some stalkers (who were sex offenders and who kidnapped people and then terminated other persons lives. Did they think out killing a person or was that just "Spur" of the moment. (After all Most of these folks aren't always "Focused on their victim(s)" and in fact that too is not clean and tactically swift. So that too renders this comment moot as well. No, it doesn't. You're missing the point again. When someone stalks someone and kidnaps them, all attention is on that their victim. They take particular care and are attentive to their needs -- whether they provide for these needs depends on the kind of person you're dealing with. When the end of the line comes, kidnappers generally make efforts to conceal their victim's death. It's not just a hack and slash job -- they try to conceal the body, dump it somewhere, or bury it. They don't go "stabstabrippitystabstab" and drop it and run. Not even Jack the Ripper did that -- he observed his victim and then methodically disemboweled her, and minus one incident where he was interrupted, he arranged the corpse for the police to find. He was extremely focused on one person at a time.

Somehow, Jack the Ripper became Rambo here. Cho went from the potential sort of stalking killer that was very into his victim to an indiscriminate one. We can't even find a connection to any of the 30+ people.


But then that would violate this article's commentary (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18175525/) about how a Shooter is and in fact this guy had the warning signs all around him.. Perhaps again you forget that in the article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18175525/) it states : When someone snaps, it does not always manifest in a next-day "Going Postal" scenario. Generally, when someone just loses it, there's an initial burst of activity which is followed by paranoia and then planning -- this especially happens when the initial burst is unchecked or just not noticed; everyone is different. Planning to elude capture, planning to take out someone, planning to run away with another person (whether that person is aware of it or not) -- all common ideas. It's escapism -- body follows mind.


If you just look at this one comment that says it right there in black and white. Cho didn't 'just snap' he planed this out at least up to 6 weeks in advance.He can do both. Easily. Snapping is not always an immediate thing -- a psychotic break does not alway go the way of Selina Kyle in "Batman Returns." Someone steps out of reality, but they decide to fool their "enemies" by continuing to play their game. They know the truth -- this isn't reality at all, just a fake world constructed by those who would undermine them. It's not as well known nor is it as visual at first...but it does eventually become VERY obvious.


In fact Eric (Harris) and Dylan (Klebold) planned out their Columbine shooting for almost over a month. so this fits that pattern quite nicely. If a Person suddenly 'just snapped' then there would be larger telltale warning signs and in fact this person wouldn't have been able to do what he did with such precision and deadliness. (So again moot). It's not moot when you aren't offering enough of an argument to render it so, so stop using the term. Harris and Klebold made a list of targets they wanted to take down. The popular kids, the jocks, and those that made fun of them. They were painfully sane when they did this. And the two of them made a video game simulation using the Doom engine before the shooting about killing all the jocks and cheerleaders -- big sign right there and nobody picked up on it either. Insanity isn't always obvious. They knew who they wanted to kill, and if someone got in their way, they shot them too. Cho just went in, guns blazing. He didn't target any specific rich kid or even the girls that got him in trouble the previous year. He had this oddball version of reality; Klebold and Harris were still in touch with it and actively went looking for their targets. When they couldn't find them, then they just went happy on everything.


Good point, but still he did get ordered by a magistrate to get help, and in a way he fooled (or rather lulled) the psychologists into a false sense of security. in fact in every commentary I have read, the Psychologist thought that Cho denied suicidal ideations, yet if you look at his writings it screams volumes here, I know most people are not psychologists (be it with a degree or even an armchair variety but believe me, when you look at his one play where his commentary is scathingly distubing it makes you wonder, why on earth most instructors and faculty didn't pick up on this. so there we have another question to ask. The problem with your logic is that it's all in hindsight. Yeah, we see it now, but if Cho had come on any forum and said, "Man, my teachers think my writing is disturbing," we'd all be like, "Man, teachers suck. Maybe you should tone it down a little, but they're still being horrible to you and limiting your freedom of expression." Granted, knowing us, we wouldn't have read it and just done the polite thing. At the moment, I'm writing a play that involves no less than 4 suicide attempts with 3 successes in graphic detail-- am I gunning to die? Absolutely not. If he's depressed, it could be seen as a sort of catharsis.

I read the two plays. Technically, they are good -- good formatting, good punctuation and grammar for the most part. There is a plotline (as thin as it is in some areas). Even though the quality is rather low, what I see is someone who is angry and self-victimizing. He is John in both plays, it seems. John loses both times -- life ain't fair to him. He never gets to carry out what he wants to on other people -- he gets victimized instead. If they weren't so deadly serious, I'd think it was one of my goofball playwriting classmates doing an uber parody.

Bottom line on the plays is that they're too organized and "well" written to be done by a guy who's over the edge. He's thinking too well, essentially, to be the person who killed all those people aimlessly.




That's very true, but if you continue to read the stories here, Cho got this ticket just days before he carried out his crime. and in fact I think that maybe this might have been (and I stress Might have been), the triggering event that did finally cause him to do what he did. (I've seen cases where people kill themselves becase they were in accidents that at the worst broke noses, or even slight injuries. But someone like Cho getting a ticket just 4 to 5 days before this event? I think they would feel that the world is out there trying to get them. and when you mix in the Delusions of Grandeur, it makes you wonder if this was indeed the trigger that finally sparked this issue. The things that contradict the idea that the ticket made him do it that are the guns. He got them in March, not in April or after the ticket. Why would he need 2 guns if he wasn't already over the edge and hellbent on doing this? Yes, he planned this, but the amount of ammo and everything he got was done way beforehand. The video shows he's off his nut -- do we know when he made them?


And yet here we have this psychologist saying Cho denied his "Suicidal Ideations" and let him go. that was a brilliant move don't you think? The guy is saying that he denied it falsely in hindsight. At the time, I'm sure the doctor really felt he meant it sincerely. After all, from the horrible capitalist perspective, you can get money from a live patient, not a dead one. What does the doctor have to gain by sending a legitimately suicidal person off?


But then like you said, they respected Cho's rights, but then again did they (the people who let Cho go) respect any of Cho's 32victims' rights to live? Apparently not. Oodles of hindsight here. But hindsight doesn't help the past all that much.


After all remember you said in your own words that all of these people were respecting his (Cho's) rights, but in the end did anyone really respect the rights of his victims? When you can come up with a plausible answer for that, get back to me on it. (sings in Broadway fashion) HIIIIIIIIIINDSIGHT!!!

Hello, anyone in there? Back in 2005, there were no 32 victims. There were two victims that made a decision for themselves, and the authorities had to respect them and their privacy. You can't change that nor can you expect people to see the future.


So then you say 32 dead bodies is a form of innocence? No, silly. I'm saying that any of Cho's previous potential offenses are simply accusations -- he wasn't convicted in a court of law for them and charges were not pressed. No evidence was brought forward in those cases. However, the corpses, videos, writings, and photos from the guy himself are evidence in this scenario. Lots of evidence. The inquiry and investigation will find him responsible, no doubt.


Well then did Cho even sympathize with his victims as he snuffed out their lives and they didn't have a choice? I guess then that would be an unqualified 'yes'.The dead's troubles are over. They're going in the ground shortly, never to be hurt or in pain again. It's the living who have to carry on and clean up the mess. You think those girls aren't suffering right now because of people such as yourself that are essentially calling them chickens and "bad people" and saying they caused the deaths of 32 people? Seriously, all you're stating over and over are things that were only seeable in hindsight. It all adds up in the big picture, but in the day to day, it wasn't visible. Also in the big picture, there are a more screwed up people than Cho that haven't gone nuts. Everyone's different, and we can't have a specific criteria list as to who is crazy or just eccentric.


Well I will say this: At least let's see the Anti-gun folk try to argue that a hammer or a knife isn't a weapon and a gun is.. In fact there are a number of ways he could have killed, Poisons, Biotoxins, Garroting with piano wire, bombs, and even hammers, and baseball bats. Even cars count.. so like I said, let's see how all these so called "Anti gun folks try to explain this, and say, "Oh a hammer isn't a weapon!" this will be a real hoot. ....What does that even have to do with my comment on British newspapers starting to blame Oldboy?

[tb4000]

As far as the "everything can be a weapon" thing, a gun is made specifically to injure or kill. Everything else has a purpose other than that.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

As far as the "everything can be a weapon" thing, a gun is made specifically to injure or kill. Everything else has a purpose other than that.

Guns are so quick and efficient. Just go in and blast away. Bombs, poison, toxins, etc are terribly inefficient, difficult to set up, and often don't even work properly, if at all.

Same with knives or bats. At least if you choose to fight you have a chance. If you don't want to fight, you can run and not worry about getting pegged in the back.

[Dead_Ninja_111]

It was a very sad day, made me scared as ever, but what happens what happens... I guess.


:sad:

[Zeonic Freak]

My thoughts on this are that if they had "Undercover security as suggested by the commentary, then there would have been a plus, but also anyone who was undercover could have been mistaken as another shooter and thus it would have gotten ugly. so it makes you wonder.. if this had been the case would the death toll been lower? or higher? And finally one final comment. Anyone within 21 feet of the shooter could have subdued him. that in itself shows how the difference could be.. but I'm still undecided on this one. But if it would have made a difference then maybe it would have made a difference, but until this is put into practice this won't be known.


:coyote:

That is true, but if theres a set system with the undercovers and the police on the outside having communication and the undercovers to show proof they are there to protect students, then it would work.

And im not saying theres one undercover, i would hope there would be like 20 or 30 at most walking around the campus/going to classes/staying at dorms to protect students. And if there is a shooting and the undercovers know where this is happening, they can all rush in and handle the situation alot quicker than the police can on the outside...

[Czar Gato]

Well now I know that his gf was a b**ch and he was a crazed religious fundamentalist. Put the 2 together and you get 32 innocent deaths.
According to all the sources I've seen, he railed against organized religion- particularly Christianity- in those videos as well. Just becuase someone compares themselves to Christ does NOT mean that they are doing so in a religious context; rather, he probably felt persecuted against society and saw parallels between himself and Jesus's death- however deluded and unrealistic those "parallels" may have been. There are probably a lot of people with similar martyr complexes who feel the same way.

My heart goes out to VA Tech; I know several people who go there, though thankfully none are in the engineering dept. and weren't near Norris Hall at the time. I also feel really sorry for the faculty and students at Westfield High School; not only did the killer graduate from there, but so did at least two of the victims. Also, troubled student from that same school was killed by police last year after he ambushed and fatally shot two police officers.

[tucsoncoyote]

That is true, but if theres a set system with the undercovers and the police on the outside having communication and the undercovers to show proof they are there to protect students, then it would work.

And im not saying theres one undercover, i would hope there would be like 20 or 30 at most walking around the campus/going to classes/staying at dorms to protect students. And if there is a shooting and the undercovers know where this is happening, they can all rush in and handle the situation alot quicker than the police can on the outside...

Yep very good points there Zeonic Freak.. but I want to point something out. If these folks had been in the same classrooms that Cho entered then there would be a chance (All be it slim) that the undercover folks would have created another problem more then likely, and what I am refering to is "Friendly Crossfire" (In short, An undercover person would be shooting at Cho, Cho would be firing back and even if the undercover person was accurate and knew how to handle his weapon well, there is that chance that someone or some folk would get caught in this so called "Crossfire" and possibly be killed.

That's the only thing that might worry me about this undercover thing, having to have an undercover cop/FBI guy having to explain to a innocent's parents that "Gee, we're sorry, we stopped the shooter from hurting your son/daughter, but sadly he/she was killed by one of our bullets.

I think something like that might cause parents then to demand that undercover police not be allowed on campus and then we'd be back to "Square One" once again.

so that's the only flaw I see in this idea here, Zeonic Freak, other then that those are rather good points..

Edited Note: Okay Now i found a second potential flaw here as well. and that is that what if the shooter claimed he was an undercover police officer, when in reality he wasn't (Impersonating a cop), then the cops would get a bad rap and the shooter still would get his rampage, and in the end, people still die.

Edited Note #2: After seeing what has been said about the Incident at V-tech, it's odd that NBC would show Cho's material. yet 8 years ago when Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris did Columbine, no television company whatsoever, did show Eric and Dylan's "Manifesto" and now they (NBC) show Cho's. I think that right there violated the principal that most media companies would keep quiet about this. So in a way you could say that NBC is totally hypocritical about their (Don't show the public what the shooter said), policy.

Edited Note #3: In the last 24 hours we've had at least 3 so called "Copycat" style attempts. 1 in florida where a Teenage boy threatened to kill 100 people at his local school, one in Yuba City, California, where you had a "Meth-head" supposedly gun toting jerk driving around in a truck threatening to shoot at a school and a third attempt at Tempe Arizona, where a suspicious package was found in a boy's bathroom at a local school luckily for that one it was a science project instead of a bomb.


Guns are so quick and efficient. Just go in and blast away. Bombs, poison, toxins, etc are terribly inefficient, difficult to set up, and often don't even work properly, if at all.

Well then maybe you've forgotten that back in 2001-2002 the anthrax incident in New England and the Mid Atlantic staes that killed a few people and in fact this proved that if anyone can drop anthrax into the mail, what's to stop say someone dropping Smallpox into the mail (After all even though Small pox has been "eradicated" since the 1970's The CDC has a "Supply" of said toxin, and anyone can put in a request to study it. Imagine someone who really wanted to harm people released this oneto the general public (I also bet a lot of folks think that people are immune to Small pox, they are not. In fact now doctors ask if you have had a DPT (Diptheria, Pertusus, Tetanus) shot in the last 10 years. In fact Diptheria is in fact Small Pox, Pertusis is Whooping Cough), but the thing is the immunizations for Small Pox and whooping cough only lasts about a decade.. beyond that the immune system in your body isn't resistant to these items and in the end you still can get the diseases.

So all someone has to do is just drop a biotoxin into the system anywhere and we could see a lot more deaths then just a V-tech shooting.

(Also I bet no one knows about Ug99 (Wheat Rust Stem Fungus) (http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050924/food.asp) that's starting to spread across the globe either. )


Same with knives or bats. At least if you choose to fight you have a chance. If you don't want to fight, you can run and not worry about getting pegged in the back.

Well if you have a 2 ton SUV and you aim it at a group of people, well then isn't that a weapon? I mean you forgot about cars.. and I've seen cases where folks use them for weapons.. so sure you can run away from someone if you have a hammer/knife.. but if you are in a car? The tables have turned.


:coyote:

[Cortez2301]

My God this bad.I send my sympathies for the victims families and I hope they rest in peace.This is bad.I'm a student in OTtawa,Canada and I was lucky I wasn't caught in the Montreal shooting in September.I am so sorry about those students.

[Tay the Cat]

According to all the sources I've seen, he railed against organized religion- particularly Christianity- in those videos as well. Just becuase someone compares themselves to Christ does NOT mean that they are doing so in a religious context; rather, he probably felt persecuted against society and saw parallels between himself and Jesus's death- however deluded and unrealistic those "parallels" may have been. There are probably a lot of people with similar martyr complexes who feel the same way.

Strange, his two roomates said he had "Shine" by Collective Soul on continuous repeat on his computer in the weeks before the shootings. It doesn't make sense because "Shine" is the most harmless song ever written. Just look at the lyrics, it's basically a church hymn with electric guitars.

[tucsoncoyote]

And even NASA (Our Space Agency) isn't safe from these style of issues (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18233965/) (With Gunmen shooting people and taking Hostages).

:coyote:

[Tay the Cat]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070421/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

Cho's family has spoken about the situation.

They had no idea of his outrage.

[tucsoncoyote]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070421/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

Cho's family has spoken about the situation.

They had no idea of his outrage.

Totally Clueless... that's typical... after all didn't Dylan (Klebold)'s and Eric (Harris)' parents were the same exact way when Columbine occurred?

:coyote:

[The Guitar Slayer]

Well, what are they supposed to say? "Yeah, totally saw this one coming. Boy, do I feel sorry for you guys. Knew it would happen sooner or later."

Seriously. What are they supposed to say?

[tucsoncoyote]

Well, what are they supposed to say? "Yeah, totally saw this one coming. Boy, do I feel sorry for you guys. Knew it would happen sooner or later."

Seriously. What are they supposed to say?

Well you said what might have been said, but remember Cho was an Adult. He was 23, he made those choices and in the end, he took out 32 other people and himself. So really the parent's couldn't say much.. But in the case of Dylan (Klebold) and Eric (Harris), the Parents did have to apologize in the way you stated. After all Both of these boys weren't 18, they weren't adults.. and the parents should have said or did something. After all these two were not adults, they were still teens. and until they are 18, the parents should be and are responsible for their children's actions.

But as for Cho's Family they should have done something sooner then waited till after he turned 18 and i know you are going to say that they couldn't have done anything.. which is bull...and this happened. but again since Cho was an Adult they can't say anything that would make any other parent feel better. So in a way saying nothing in this case .. is typical..


:coyote:

[Zeonic Freak]

Yep very good points there Zeonic Freak.. but I want to point something out. If these folks had been in the same classrooms that Cho entered then there would be a chance (All be it slim) that the undercover folks would have created another problem more then likely, and what I am refering to is "Friendly Crossfire" (In short, An undercover person would be shooting at Cho, Cho would be firing back and even if the undercover person was accurate and knew how to handle his weapon well, there is that chance that someone or some folk would get caught in this so called "Crossfire" and possibly be killed.

That's the only thing that might worry me about this undercover thing, having to have an undercover cop/FBI guy having to explain to a innocent's parents that "Gee, we're sorry, we stopped the shooter from hurting your son/daughter, but sadly he/she was killed by one of our bullets.

I think something like that might cause parents then to demand that undercover police not be allowed on campus and then we'd be back to "Square One" once again.

so that's the only flaw I see in this idea here, Zeonic Freak, other then that those are rather good points..



:coyote:

Im sure you think Cho went around killing 32 people is unacceptibale. But dont you think leaving the casualties to at most 1-2 people sounds a tad better than what happend monday? When people use guns, chances are someone's going to get the bullet the majority of the time, and if no one dies other than the killer, you could call that dumb luck or fate.

Sorry to sound dark and weight lives, but thats alot better odds to me than to let this person run around killing more and more people...

But then again, it does need work, and i hope something like this in the future could happen, but i still respect your opinion either way...

[tucsoncoyote]

Im sure you think Cho went around killing 32 people is unacceptibale. But dont you think leaving the casualties to at most 1-2 people sounds a tad better than what happend monday? When people use guns, chances are someone's going to get the bullet the majority of the time, and if no one dies other than the killer, you could call that dumb luck or fate.

Sorry to sound dark and weight lives, but thats alot better odds to me than to let this person run around killing more and more people...

But then again, it does need work, and i hope something like this in the future could happen, but i still respect your opinion either way...

There's an Old Marine Corps saying my father used to say, and that is "Even if one person dies it's really unacceptable, but in reality people die whether we like it or not".

We can't change what happened here back on Monday, We can't turn back the clock, but we can learn from it and maybe be a bit more attentive to the warning signs that are out there. And believe me the warning signs were there and only a few folks picked up on them. (The Faculty couldn't do anything because Cho was an adult. They could suggest, and try as they might, they failed. Similarly Cho's family could have sought help for their son any time up until he was 18 years of age, and they too thought nothing of it. Even some of his roommates and classmates could have done something, but they were nowhere even close to even suggest. To most of his friends and roomates they dismissed it as "A phase" and tended to look the other way.

In the end 32 people whom he really never knew up close and personal died at his hands, 32 potential people who could have had a life. In a way Cho Said in his commentary that others had taken away his life, I just figure he wasn't self reliant on himself. and in the end he took away 32 other persons chance to have a life...

So then if you think 32 lives are unacceptable to lose, try 50, or 100, or 200, or 3,000+. After all events like this are occurring every day, and yet in today's world a lot of folks think that 32 lives lost is unacceptable. what about the 240,000 people who didn't heed Nature's warning, and in the end, they too lost their lives in a tsunami. Nature is like human nature.. No one plays fair, even by natural rules. Every event has a price to pay.. this just proves that even further..

I just hope next time people are a little more attentive.. after all this was just a pop quiz... wait till the real tests come, then we'll see who passes, and who fails...

:coyote: