Why follow Lacus? (Gundam SEED/SEED Destiny SPOILERS)

[HellCat]

Try as I might, I still can't figure this out- why, honestly, would people put so much faith in Lacus Clyne? And I mean scary amounts of faith, the kind where they're prepared to die for and don't question.

[GWOtaku]

Two reasons in brief, as I am at work:

1. Based on what we know Siegel Clyne was a revered political figure, or at least one with a considerable amount of importance. As his daughter and something of a celebrity figure already, she was seen as a natural successor to his legacy and ideals.

2. The alternatives sucked. Patrick Zala made himself into a ruthless dictator and persecuted all dissent on the ZAFT Council and elsewhere. With the politicans either in Zala's corner or on the run and most of the military under Zala's control, where else is there to turn to?

Destiny is less clear considering the bad decision to write Lacus out for way too long. It seems clear to me though that her followers kept to themselves in the background, and then got active when Lacus went to outer space and word got around regarding the attempt on her life. Then the Destiny plan came along. It seems to me they fought against that because it was a horrible idea that demanded even more tyrannical control than what Patrick Zala wanted, and because Lacus wanted them to.

[Juu-kuchi]

Yeah, there were no other alternatives. That and pop-star's know best. But that's something to blame the writers and all that garbage.

[HellCat]

Two reasons in brief, as I am at work:

1. Based on what we know Siegel Clyne was a revered political figure, or at least one with a considerable amount of importance. As his daughter and something of a celebrity figure already, she was seen as a natural successor to his legacy and ideals.

2. The alternatives sucked. Patrick Zala made himself into a ruthless dictator and persecuted all dissent on the ZAFT Council and elsewhere. With the politicans either in Zala's corner or on the run and most of the military under Zala's control, where else is there to turn to?

Destiny is less clear considering the bad decision to write Lacus out for way too long. It seems clear to me though that her followers kept to themselves in the background, and then got active when Lacus went to outer space and word got around regarding the attempt on her life. Then the Destiny plan came along. It seems to me they fought against because it was a horrible idea that demanded even more tyrannical control than what Patrick Zala wanted, and because Lacus wanted them to.

1. But that only goes so far. I understand that concept. It has a grounding in real history and worked fine for SEED. But again, that only goes so far.

2. Again, SEED is less the issue for me. There it makes sense as you point out given the speed of events and such. But in Destiny, it doesn't really make sense. We're supposed to believe that after the war a 16+ year old girl with no real combat or command experience was able to retain such loyalty? There's no doubt Lacus can take charge of a situation, but the amount of power she's shown to have....it'd be like if, say, Hillary Duff stole a state of the art military carrier and said "Let's go stop the fighting in Iraq!". Would YOU follow her?

[Juu-kuchi]

Yeah... there wasn't really any person with experience in either politics or military expertise that would lead the other side, it was all just a pop-star who thinks she knows how the world should be run.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Because she is 'teh noobz with teh boobz'.

I'd guess a combination of many things. Her family history helped her gain supporters(many of whom were originally Siegel Clyne supporters), and her status as a public symbol made her very recognizable.

As mentioned, there weren't a whole lot of great alternatives, either.

Granted, that doesn't reason in Destiny since Gilbert was a great leader who was trying to bring about world peace, while Lacus was busy being a secret LOGOS supporter.:shrug:

[Gatomon41]

GWOtaku does have a point that in SEED the choices were either a Rightous Pop Star, the Hitler-esque Genocidal maniac, or the Satlin-esque genocidal maniac.

HelllCat, however, does make the more pressing point that Lacus being a good leader to follow in SeedD is unlikely (until the end of the series). Even then it's just Rightous Pop Star vs. brave New World.

Lacus is truly perplexing because she lacks the qualities of being a leader many would flock to. Take a look at gundam Wing's Trieze. Trieze had charismia, the good looks, the military and political experience, an aura of honor and tradition, the reptuation for victory, the sense that this guy was honorable, was eloquent with words, basically all the good qualties you would find in a leader many would join and die for.

Lacus has no charismia, lacks military and political experience, her pop star past really does not project military virtues, how many battles did her side win?, and lacks the skill with words (although sincere). Basically, all she has is the the good looks and familly rep, but that's it.

Lacus is one of the people who probably should not command a starship, let alone a small fleet.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Her debut had her as a memorial representative. It seems like that would involve some politics. There's a foundation for her to have had political mojo, but they don't develop it until "omg, she gave away Freedom, traitor!" We're given the end results and are supposed to infer that she had to skills to cause them.

[rubberchicken]

You should follow Lacus Clyne because being on her side grants you virtual immortality, up to and including being able to survive your mech's obliteration by heavy beam fire.

[HellCat]

What really gets me is how Lacus is made out to be so wise "We condemn those who take up arms but we're doing the same. Oopsie!" My goodness! She's preaching common sense! Truely she is the brave new hope for the future!

[Conan-san]

What really gets me is how Lacus is made out to be so wise "We condemn those who take up arms but we're doing the same. Oopsie!" My goodness! She's preaching common sense! Truely she is the brave new hope for the future! Course, given Seed D. common sence was as rare as hen's teeth.

[GWOtaku]

Quite a few popular points have been made; let me respond completely and see if I can move the discussion forward.

1. For starters, I'd like to take on the pop star dismissals of Lacus. This is too simple and overlooks the essential point, which is that above all Lacus became a symbol. She was already a spokesman for peace with the memorial council business; circumstances also made her the one hope for those that believed in what Siegel was doing or hated Patrick's tyranny. There are countless examples in both history and fiction where people can and have fought and died for the sake of an idea or symbol that is bigger than themselves or even becomes bigger than the object of worship.

2. But the big criticism is that Lacus has no leadership qualities. Most of you don't think there's a reason for her to be idolized. For starters, I think her alleged lack of charisma is clearly not true. Lacus was already in the public eye and well liked before things went south in SEED, and when things got serious she demonstrated her ability to win sympathy and persuade people. During Patrick's crackdown she was constantly addressing the people and fighting a propaganda war with Patrick with her broadcasts. Her charisma is exactly why she was a problem for Patrick, and why Durandal wanted to make everyone think he had her support.

3. As for military achivement, while she's never had a rank in the military I don't think we can overlook her actions in SEED. How many battles did she win? The one that mattered. Her actions overthrew Patrick Zala and restored ZAFT's Government to what it was when Siegel was chairman. Along with ZAFT forces the Three Ships Alliance was responsible for saving PLANT from devestation by nuclear weapons, and prevented further escalation of the war by getting rid of GENESIS. As the leader of the fleet, responsiblity and credit for its actions falls to Lacus. She did more than enough to make her a prominent figure three years later, which is not a very long time.

A quick note on the hypocrisy of fighting: I don't buy it. Sometimes you must take up arms to fight for principles, and neither Zala nor Durandal were about to be persuaded by mere dialogue. This is one of Wing's big lessons and I wouldn't want Lacus being a second Relena for the sake of ideological purity (I don't want conflict, therefore I refuse to fight). No one speaks of pacifism in CE and they shouldn't, Lacus & friends are acting on the real danger of Earth and Space eventually destroying each other.

4. For Destiny, I don't see why she wouldn't stay in contact with her followers. As the last two points make clear, there's no way her actions in SEED go unforgotten. Durandal wanting her influence is evidence that her actions made her even more famous.

Its also important to note that contrary to Kuwabara's claim Lacus' allies never supported LOGOS, and in fact fought against them when they attacked the first Destroy unit in Berlin. I will also always believe in the logic of opposing the Destiny plan at the end. By any measure it makes Patrick Zala's power grab look like benevolent policy, and while it was a road to peace it amounted to Durandal asking the entire world to live exactly the way he thinks they should. Think that through. Now hands up, who thinks this would work well at all in reality?

5. Finally, the realism objection. Yes, on its face all of this happening to a 16 year old is unthinkable. Then again so is Relena Peacecraft restoring her country and becoming leader of the world for awhile, or even Cecily's circumstances in Gundam F91. The thing is unlikely destinies like these are not uncommon in Gundam let alone anime where just about everybody important is no older than 25, so I think we need to remember this and allow ourselves some suspension of disbelief.

[Gatomon41]

You should follow Lacus Clyne because being on her side grants you virtual immortality, up to and including being able to survive your mech's obliteration by heavy beam fire.

But other act of plot :p , I still can't think of any reason why anyone (except for excessive fans) would follow a pop star. Relena had more reason to have people follow her than Lacus. That's a scarry thought :sad:



1. For starters, I'd like to take on the pop star dismissals of Lacus. This is too simple and overlooks the essential point, which is that above all Lacus became a symbol. She was already a spokesman for peace with the memorial council business; circumstances also made her the one hope for those that believed in what Siegel was doing or hated Patrick's tyranny. There are countless examples in both history and fiction where people can and have fought and died for the sake of an idea or symbol that is bigger than themselves or even becomes bigger than the object of worship.

It would be over simfying to say people died for a symbol. Often, people will die to acheive an idea or dream, but only fools die for a symbol.

Lacus isn't exactly the the ideal martyr. Sure, she's a symbol for peace, but what did she really do? She lost her father and gave Kira a ubermecha. And that's it. It's not like she had to endure years of torment, fight incredable odds with nothing but her wits, make a coragous last stand, etc. etc. Lacus really hadn't done anything that would really encourage very many.

but then agian, perhaps she need only encourage a few.



2. But the big criticism is that Lacus has no leadership qualities. Most of you don't think there's a reason for her to be idolized. For starters, I think her alleged lack of charisma is clearly not true. Lacus was already in the public eye and well liked before things went south in SEED, and when things got serious she demonstrated her ability to win sympathy and persuade people. During Patrick's crackdown she was constantly addressing the people and fighting a propaganda war with Patrick with her broadcasts. Her charisma is exactly why she was a problem for Patrick, and why Durandal wanted to make everyone think he had her support.

She can perhaps influence people's hearts, but I just don't see Lacus having the magnetic quality that would have her win hearts to her side.


3. As for military achivement, while she's never had a rank in the military I don't think we can overlook her actions in SEED. How many battles did she win? The one that mattered.Along with ZAFT forces the Three Ships Alliance was responsible for saving PLANT from devestation by nuclear weapons, and prevented further escalation of the war by getting rid of GENESIS. As the leader of the fleet, responsiblity and credit for its actions falls to Lacus. She did more than enough to make her a prominent figure three years later, which is not a very long time.

Mind you, Lacus only won not because of her military skills, but rather the military skills of those arround her. It wasn't because of her speeches did the Three Ships Alliance gain victory in the Battle of Jachin Due. It took blood, guts, strategy, and wit to gain victory. Lacus perhaps had enough courage to go into battle, but it was not totally her victory nor credit. Without the right officers, Jachin Due might as well had been lost.

I doubt her poltical rivals saw her as a military genious, just someone that anyone else would see as someone else to rally arround.


A quick note on the hypocrisy of fighting: I don't buy it. Sometimes you must take up arms to fight for principles, and neither Zala nor Durandal were about to be persuaded by mere dialogue. This is one of Wing's big lessons and I wouldn't want Lacus being a second Relena for the sake of ideological purity (I don't want conflict, therefore I refuse to fight). No one speaks of pacifism in CE and they shouldn't, Lacus & friends are acting on the real danger of Earth and Space eventually destroying each other.
I agree, Lacus is no hyprocrite. She wants peace, but Lacus also knew that people would have to fight, which is why she gave Freedom to Kira.

[Will Sturnick]

Granted, that doesn't reason in Destiny since Gilbert was a great leader who was trying to bring about world peace, while Lacus was busy being a secret LOGOS supporter.:shrug:

Nevermind that Gilbert's Destiny Plan would have robbed the world of free will.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Nevermind that Gilbert's Destiny Plan would have robbed the world of free will.

A) It wouldn't have taken away free will, just given more order
B) Beats eternal warfare like Lacus wants

[Will Sturnick]

A) It wouldn't have taken away free will, just given more order
B) Beats eternal warfare like Lacus wants

The government would have decided what you do with your life. Sure it would have been based on one's supposed genetic strengths, but people would that have been what people neccessarily chose? It was setting up a society like that portrayed in Ayn Rand's Anthem.

[GWOtaku]

Sturnick's dead right, we're talking about dictating a few trillion lives here. There's no choice or freedom involved there at all.

Also, its absolutely not practical. There is no way the Destiny plan could satisfy all the people, who would inevitably question their futures being decided by the select few that are analyzing their data. What happens when elites are told the data says they shouldn't be in power, or when parents are told their children have to be something completely different from what they want to be or what their parents were?

Simply put it wouldn't end war at all, it'd give people even more reasons to fight. There are countless ways it would have gone horribly wrong, had Durandal managed to succeed.

[GWOtaku]

posted by Gatomon41:

Lacus isn't exactly the the ideal martyr. Sure, she's a symbol for peace, but what did she really do? She lost her father and gave Kira a ubermecha. And that's it. It's not like she had to endure years of torment, fight incredible odds with nothing but her wits, make a courageous last stand, etc. etc. Lacus really hadn't done anything that would really encourage very many.
Mind you, Lacus only won not because of her military skills, but rather the military skills of those arround her. It wasn't because of her speeches did the Three Ships Alliance gain victory in the Battle of Jachin Due. It took blood, guts, strategy, and wit to gain victory. Lacus perhaps had enough courage to go into battle, but it was not totally her victory nor credit. Without the right officers, Jachin Due might as well had been lost.

I doubt her poltical rivals saw her as a military genius, just someone that anyone else would see as someone else to rally arround.This is all true, I take the point that she needed a lot of help to do what she did. As a figurehead she was very important though, and even if it was for symbolic purposes she did seem to have top authority over the fleet at Jachin Due. She's far from the strongest possible leader and as you say she's sure as hell no Treize, but even so there are good reasons for coordinators to look up to her.

[Lighthammer]

I haven't seen Destiny so pardon some ignorant probes here but what I know of SEED, there is a very basic answer to this question:

People tend to follow those who have a vision, a plan, drive and the power to make it happen.


This is a basic, basic, basic aspect of people.

[rubberchicken]

I haven't seen Destiny so pardon some ignorant probes here but what I know of SEED, there is a very basic answer to this question:

People tend to follow those who have a vision, a plan, drive and the power to make it happen.


This is a basic, basic, basic aspect of people.

See also Patrick Zala, Murata Azrael, Gilbert, Gihren Zabi, etc. etc. etc.

The biggest difference here is that all of the above characters have a plan to make lasting changes in the world. All Lacus has done is restore the CE status quo - which has led to war twice so far in the timeline, and will do so again so that Bandai can squeeze a third series out of it.

I wouldn't follow somebody who insists on repeating the same mistake over and over any more than I would follow somebody who advocates mass murder.

[Duke]

it'd be like if, say, Hillary Duff stole a state of the art military carrier and said "Let's go stop the fighting in Iraq!". Would YOU follow her?
If she had stopped a previous war recently, then probably yes.


She can perhaps influence people's hearts, but I just don't see Lacus having the magnetic quality that would have her win hearts to her side.
Perhaps? She single-handedly calmed down every single person in the PLANTs after the EA tried to nuke them again. True, it was Meer, but at that point she was still a really good impersonation (before she became super-peppy later).

What I'd like to know is why more people didn't question why Lacus disappeared for 2 years. She does rectify things at the end of SE4, but still...

[HellCat]

It wasn't in mind when I started the thread, but perhaps this speaks of a cultural difference. Given the amazing devotion Japanese idols receive....let's just hope Goto Maki isn't building a private army.

[GWOtaku]

posted by rubberchicken:

The biggest difference here is that all of the above characters have a plan to make lasting changes in the world. All Lacus has done is restore the CE status quo - which has led to war twice so far in the timeline, and will do so again so that Bandai can squeeze a third series out of it.

I wouldn't follow somebody who insists on repeating the same mistake over and over any more than I would follow somebody who advocates mass murder. The problem for me is this: the same argument could be used to say that Amuro was wrong to stop Char from his colony drop in Char's Counterattack. For me, it's not enough to support radical solutions simply because they're changing a problematic status quo.

We have to ask whether the ends really justify the means here. We also have to accept that these drastic solutions create a new status quo, and we then have to ask where that will lead in the long term. I don't believe it leads to peace, and I haven't heard a good reason why it would.

[HellCat]

But what fully is Lacus fighting for? Her actions if anything imply she perhaps isn't interested in long term commitment. After SEED she went into hiding, wanting to believe everything would work out. It took a second and perhaps worse war before she decided she needed to take a long term role. She's a difficult character to pin down. I think her own talents at deception do make alot of fans untrusting. The whole fact that we're told Lacus is right just because doesn't help. I definetly agree she's the voice of reason in a panicing mob but the series make her out to be amazingly wise and deep. The fact she's willing to take on this burden is applause worthy but it's made out like Lacus is somehow above everyone else. Look at Athrun- he had some understandable doubts about the right path for the future in Destiny and what makes his mind up? A pretty speech from Lacus. That was handled better when it occurred in SEED. Part of it's also probably confounded by the fact anime characters must ignore the bloody obvious so we can draw out the angst

[Gatomon41]

Perhaps? She single-handedly calmed down every single person in the PLANTs after the EA tried to nuke them again. True, it was Meer, but at that point she was still a really good impersonation (before she became super-peppy later).

Calming down is still different from a magetism that can lead people into war. It's one thing to say "Hey, don't be hasty", than saying "Hey, come die for me."


It wasn't in mind when I started the thread, but perhaps this speaks of a cultural difference. Given the amazing devotion Japanese idols receive....let's just hope Goto Maki isn't building a private army.
I may have under estimated the PLANT's cultral perferences. Maybe Pop Stars are more influencial within their society. The issue that troubles me is that Lacus just dosn't inspire enough to make people willing to fight and die for her causes.


But what fully is Lacus fighting for? Her actions if anything imply she perhaps isn't interested in long term commitment. After SEED she went into hiding, wanting to believe everything would work out. It took a second and perhaps worse war before she decided she needed to take a long term role. She's a difficult character to pin down.
I think her own talents at deception do make alot of fans untrusting. The whole fact that we're told Lacus is right just because doesn't help. I definetly agree she's the voice of reason in a panicing mob but the series make her out to be amazingly wise and deep. The fact she's willing to take on this burden is applause worthy but it's made out like Lacus is somehow above everyone else. Look at Athrun- he had some understandable doubts about the right path for the future in Destiny and what makes his mind up? A pretty speech from Lacus. That was handled better when it occurred in SEED. Part of it's also probably confounded by the fact anime characters must ignore the bloody obvious so we can draw out the angst


HellCat covered all the major problems here. We simply don't know her motivations, nor given no reasons why she is right. I just wish someone would show up and demand a logical explination from Lacus.

That's it! Next Series: Gundam SEED III: Spock vs. Lacus! :p

[Duke]

Calming down is still different from a magetism that can lead people into war. It's one thing to say "Hey, don't be hasty", than saying "Hey, come die for me."
Yea, but a major reason Gilbert was able to sway so many people to his side was because of Lacus. OK sure, it was a fake Lacus, but her mere presence gave off much more influence than Gilbert ever did.

[Gatomon41]

Yea, but a major reason Gilbert was able to sway so many people to his side was because of Lacus. OK sure, it was a fake Lacus, but her mere presence gave off much more influence than Gilbert ever did.

Meer was more or less the Mouth of Saruon, delivering Gilbert's words to people willing to listen and trust her. She was simply a propganda machine. Influencing many, yes. But is it the same as true leadership?

[HellCat]

It's different kinds of leadership though. There are people I put alot of faith in. However, that doesn't mean I'm just going to go along with whatever they tell me to do. That's what Lacus basically has the power for and what Gilbert exploited. Personally, it would take ALOT to get me involved in a military cause. I'm similar to Athrun- he acted on his own experiences. Whilst I'm sure Patrick prodded him, we know he really got involved with ZAFT due to the death of his mother. Even when he sees what his father is doing he's still uncertain. That continues into Destiny and although at times it was quite annoying it actually makes him a better character. Rather then be content with Club Clyne, Athrun's the guy who's constantly questioning if he's on the right side.

[GWOtaku]

Well, I can't disagree with the Athrun praise. :) For me he's the strongest character on the show for just those reasons.

There's not much I can say to your latest comments. I think the problem here is that as a character, Lacus is incomplete. We get little to no focus on her and she's been simply portrayed as a sensible alternative to very bad choices, as you say. This is why I wish she'd had her own arc, or at least a recurring sideplot. In part, she's propped up because of a lack of ambiguity assigned to Patrick Zala or Durandal at the end.

The good news is there was some development at least, with Lacus and Kira realizing their mistake in walking away and choosing to step up and take on responsibility at the end. They've graduated from fighting against misguided or evil authority, now they are authority. Its up to the movie and a possible third series to explore how she will act on it.

[DeathscytheVII]

Its really scary if you think about it. Considering that she single handedly destroyed a sovereign state's military in the final battle, as well as topple the head of state. But she really has no vision. The best she could do is just make everything go to status quo, and if the world manages to go one way she doesn't like, she'll just use her 'peace' speech and invincible suits to make it back the way she wants.

My theory is that the entire seed universe is too busy staring at her to think. In the words of Joey: "Don't stare at her boobs! They're like a giant black hole, you'll get sucked right in!"

And the whole seed universe got sucked in


On another note, i really hated how she sucked all the emotion out of Kira. In SEED, despite being whimpy, he at least displayed emotion, but in destiny...he's so....like a statue


It will be cool to see in the third series if there will be a group that is pissed at how Lacus is now the single most powerful military and political figure in the C.E universe.

[Botman]

Its really scary if you think about it. Considering that she single handedly destroyed a sovereign state's military in the final battle, as well as topple the head of state. But she really has no vision. The best she could do is just make everything go to status quo, and if the world manages to go one way she doesn't like, she'll just use her 'peace' speech and invincible suits to make it back the way she wants.

One thing that has went through my mind, is would she have any qualms over forcing nations like the Atlantic Federation to integrate Coordinators into their population in the name of peace?

[rubberchicken]

One thing that has went through my mind, is would she have any qualms over forcing nations like the Atlantic Federation to integrate Coordinators into their population in the name of peace?
Thereby creating an underclass of disgruntled Naturals who are justifiably angry about Coordinators coming in and taking their jobs just because Lacus says so. They'd probably STILL end up being portrayed as mindless villains.

[Botman]

Which brings up another question: did Lacus ever explicitly state that Coordinators are (through no fault of their own) mentally and physically superior in either series, and that it is not a problem easily overcome? Or does she just go on about how Naturals are their "brothers", and completely ignores the root cause of the conflict?

I wonder if she actually deludes herself into believing that the 2 are truly equals, and that there is no justifiable reason to fight.

[Vallen Valiant]

Which brings up another question: did Lacus ever explicitly state that Coordinators are (through no fault of their own) mentally and physically superior in either series, and that it is not a problem easily overcome? Or does she just go on about how Naturals are their "brothers", and completely ignores the root cause of the conflict?

I wonder if she actually deludes herself into believing that the 2 are truly equals, and that there is no justifiable reason to fight.
As far as I can tell, the difference in ability between a Coordinator and Natural was only used as a plot device at the beginning, but was otherwise abandoned within the story itself. Arthur, the XO of Minerva, certainly doesn't look like he is any more competent than other stupid Natural officers. After Natural-friendly OS were developed, the supposedly superior skills of Coordinators as pilots evaporated and was never mentioned again (except for named characters, but since they are "hero" units it hardly mattered. Coordinator and Natural grunts get defeated just as easily as each other).

Then there was the fact that Murrue fought and won against Coordinator Commandos, supposed cream-of-the-crop of ZAFT military, when her own military background was in engineering. This completely clashed with supposed superiority of Coordinator in combat and that one of them can fight many Naturals at once.

Then there is also Lunamaria, a supposed skilled Red-coat of ZAFT military, who seem to have issues in her true capabilities.
(This is likely caused by script flaw; normally protagonists in a Gundam series are formed like how Archangel started out. A ragtag bunch of ill-prepared people who worked together by chance, and win against the odds.
But Minerva's crew were supposedly the best of the best, with trained soldiers rather than kids grabbed off the street. Yet the demands of traditional melodrama means the characters ended up acting like they are still a ragtag bunch of ill prepared amateurs, who whinge and complain with massive insubordination issues. This is what happens when you only change a part of the standard formula without paying attention to the rest that you didn't change.)

Finally, the first Coordinator, George, had won the Superbowl as well as being a rocket scientist. Yet not a single Coordinator has ever been as dominating as he was since. One has to wonder if his unique situation was more due to massive amounts of money spent on his education and hiring of physical trainers since birth, more than him being a coordinator.

As an aside, there is that thing about the young Coordinator beating a bunch of kids in school. That meant nothing actually; all it tells you is that there was a kid who is stronger than everyone else, which is the case in any schoolyard, with or without coordinators involved.

Coordinator's physical differences were NOT the problem, no more than Mutant powers in X-men being the source of their problem. Otherwise we would have to wage war on all our boxing champions, weight lifter gold medalists, fastest sprinters, the entire 2006 team of Pittsburgh Steelers, and anyone else who are above average in fitness. Sure, everyone worked hard to get to where they were, but so did coordinators. The best of the best still needed natural talent to get to the very top besides hard work.

In essence, Lacus didn't address difference between coordinators and Naturals because it is not important to peace. You might as well suggest Martin Luthur King didn't address differences between people of different skin colours by finding a way to make everyone look the same.
People are genetically born with inclinations to repel those who are different from them, but we as humans with brains are also fully capable of reining in and control our instincts. Otherwise what is the point of being human?

Genetic engineering was not the reason war broke out. It's just Green Peace going homicidal in the alternate universe, sponsered by Logos, which happened to be an organisation composed of Coordinaters and Natural working together for their mutual benefit of gaining new weapon contracts.

War for the sake of war, in other words.

[HellCat]

The thing is, SEED raised a very important issue which Destiny completly ignored (except apparently in development notes for Gilbert's character)- From about third generation, Coordinators have difficulty breeding. As Siegel Clyne tried to explain to Patrick Zala, they aren't the next step for humanity. They're an unnatural sub-class of humanity when science jumped the gun and they won't survive unless they stand side by side with Naturals, allowing both genetic groups to mix. This is part of the reason I'm upset they spat in the face of the Cagalli and Athrun pairing. Yeah, let's pair up all the Coordinator characters. Sure it's going to lead to extinction but hey, who cares about that when you have superhuman couples to make? Cheap couples make everything better!

[Vallen Valiant]

The thing is, SEED raised a very important issue which Destiny completly ignored (except apparently in development notes for Gilbert's character)- From about third generation, Coordinators have difficulty breeding. As Siegel Clyne tried to explain to Patrick Zala, they aren't the next step for humanity. They're an unnatural sub-class of humanity when science jumped the gun and they won't survive unless they stand side by side with Naturals, allowing both genetic groups to mix. This is part of the reason I'm upset they spat in the face of the Cagalli and Athrun pairing. Yeah, let's pair up all the Coordinator characters. Sure it's going to lead to extinction but hey, who cares about that when you have superhuman couples to make? Cheap couples make everything better!
Technically everything about coordinator breeding issues has been abandoned at this point. It was used as a plot device for Athrun to be engaged to Lacus, as well as making Talia dump Gilbert and drove him into a "if the world can use genetics to force me to lose the one I love, I will force genetic control over the whole world as revenge." aka Destiny Plan.
(Though the Talia thing was an even worse mess, as I have no idea what kind of relationship she has will Gilbert. She is an ex, yet slept with him in the early episodes. She has a kid, and she was supposedly a loving mother. But nothing actually suggest she cared about her child's welfare. etc etc.)

Coordinators can't go extinct, because they are humans. Assuming interbreeding between coordinators without coordinating their offspring (which is what the story is saying), genetic scrambling would make them indistinguishable from Naturals within five or six generations. But that doesn't mean coordinators will "die off", merely that they had never been anything more or less than human beings.

[Karl Olson]

No politics. It's forbidden by the forum's rules.

[Katsumara]

I'd so those who didn't follow her would have Kira on them. You know what happens when Lacus activates Kira's hax, right? Yeah. Thought so.

[rubberchicken]

No politics. It's forbidden by the forum's rules.
Even when discussing a show that has pretensions of being politically relevant?

[Karl Olson]

Even when discussing a show that has pretensions of being politically relevant?

Considering that it quickly became more of a political discussion rather than a discussion of the show's relation to politics, yes. I mean, if you can stick to keep it tied to the show, I might consider it, otherwise, it's a waste of time, it's off-topic for the forum and it's likely to start a flame war.

Besides, political discussion was only allowed back on TZ post-9/11, and it was booted back off because it became a problem in the Cafe. As such, I'm leary to sanction something close to what has been outright and explicitly banned on other parts of the forum.

[Gatomon41]

Coordinators can't go extinct, because they are humans. Assuming interbreeding between coordinators without coordinating their offspring (which is what the story is saying), genetic scrambling would make them indistinguishable from Naturals within five or six generations. But that doesn't mean coordinators will "die off", merely that they had never been anything more or less than human beings.

Agreed, Coordinator culture (if any) would die off, but it does not mean a spieces would become extinct. Even Sigel Clyne noted the Coordinators didn't evolve. Coordinator modifcations aren't as intesive as say the Abh (Crest of the Stars) or even Neitzeians (Adromeda), and even these modifed human groups are still rather human.

[rubberchicken]

Agreed, Coordinator culture (if any) would die off, but it does not mean a spieces would become extinct. Even Sigel Clyne noted the Coordinators didn't evolve. Coordinator modifcations aren't as intesive as say the Abh (Crest of the Stars) or even Neitzeians (Adromeda), and even these modifed human groups are still rather human.

Well, except that after a couple of generations of tainting their genetic purity with Naturals, they'll probably start to lose things like their 1337 OS programming abilities (which were a completely stupid plot device in SEED, but which are canon nonetheless.)

Thing is, the Coordinators are designed to be superior, and interbreeding with Naturals (oh, wretched miscegenation) will interfere with that. It might not be as much of an issue for Naturals, but there's no way there isn't going to be snobbery on the part of the Coordinators.

[HellCat]

I once came up with a Turn A theory which put Wing after SEED. Gundanium was kind of the ultimate evolution of Phase Shift and the 5 pilots were generations of breeding finally lining up with all five having the perfect mix of dormant Coordinator genes.

[Conan-san]

I once came up with a Turn A theory which put Wing after SEED. Gundanium was kind of the ultimate evolution of Phase Shift and the 5 pilots were generations of breeding finally lining up with all five having the perfect mix of dormant Coordinator genes. Makes about as much sence as anything else in SEED.

[HellCat]

Makes about as much sence as anything else in SEED.

In the PLANTs, they wear shoes on their hands and hamburgers eat people!

[rubberchicken]

I once came up with a Turn A theory which put Wing after SEED. Gundanium was kind of the ultimate evolution of Phase Shift and the 5 pilots were generations of breeding finally lining up with all five having the perfect mix of dormant Coordinator genes.

Explains Heero and Trowa's ability to not die after Wing/Vayeate blow up with them inside.

[Vallen Valiant]

Well, except that after a couple of generations of tainting their genetic purity with Naturals, they'll probably start to lose things like their 1337 OS programming abilities (which were a completely stupid plot device in SEED, but which are canon nonetheless.)

Thing is, the Coordinators are designed to be superior, and interbreeding with Naturals (oh, wretched miscegenation) will interfere with that. It might not be as much of an issue for Naturals, but there's no way there isn't going to be snobbery on the part of the Coordinators.
You are still not paying attention. Coordinators might pass their genes to their children, but coordinators are not clones. They will automatically become Naturals by just breeding between themselves even when other Naturals are not involved, because individual coordinators have different genes to one another.

And that's with the "genetic purity" idea? Coordinators are not a separate race, no more than people who could roll their tongues be considered a separate race. Coordinators came from all works of life, and genetic stock of Naturals across the planet. Don't forget, every coordinator has a parent, a sibling, or grandparent who is a Natural. Only those who were driven mad by anger and vengeance (AKA Patrick Zala) would even consider mass murdering Naturals.

And last I checked, the side that promoted genetic purity was the Blue Cosmos. They were the snobby ones. If back then Green Peace hadn't suddenly gone militant and organised massacres, coordinators would still be part of normal society like they wanted.

[Gatomon41]

I once came up with a Turn A theory which put Wing after SEED. Gundanium was kind of the ultimate evolution of Phase Shift and the 5 pilots were generations of breeding finally lining up with all five having the perfect mix of dormant Coordinator genes.

That's actually more plausable than my theory:

Heero Yuy defeats a time-traveling super gundam called the Shrike Gundam, which both die, and in the process of battle go back to the Cosmic Era. The scienists then use Heero's remains to devlop soldier genes which are inserted via gene therapy into Geroge Glen. :p

[Gatomon41]

Well, except that after a couple of generations of tainting their genetic purity with Naturals, they'll probably start to lose things like their 1337 OS programming abilities (which were a completely stupid plot device in SEED, but which are canon nonetheless.)
Who cares? Genetic purity is pusedoscience. Also, Coordinators are sterlitle after the 3rd generation, so the issue of "genetic purity" becomes mute. There isn't going to be any more Coordinators.

Besides, it's not the genes that make the person.


Thing is, the Coordinators are designed to be superior, and interbreeding with Naturals (oh, wretched miscegenation) will interfere with that.
Coordinators are people with several advantages in their environment. It dosn't mean their superior, just better at certain things.


It might not be as much of an issue for Naturals, but there's no way there isn't going to be snobbery on the part of the Coordinators.
Then they better get over their snobbery or have their bloodline die off. Simple as that.

[rubberchicken]

Who cares? Genetic purity is pusedoscience.
No, that's one of the basic ideas of heredity - that children receive a mix of their parents' genes. In normal cases that's a good thing, since intensive inbreeding often results in an emphasis on their negative genetic traits. However, Coordinators are engineered not to have negative genetic traits - ergo, a Coordinator bumping headboards with a Natural will result in their superior genes being diluted by an infusion of inferior blood.



Also, Coordinators are sterlitle after the 3rd generation, so the issue of "genetic purity" becomes mute. There isn't going to be any more Coordinators. Didn't stop Patrick Zala from being sure they would find a way around it.



Besides, it's not the genes that make the person.
But it is their genes that make them stronger.



Coordinators are people with several advantages in their environment. It dosn't mean their superior, just better at certain things. That's the very definition of superiority.



Then they better get over their snobbery or have their bloodline die off. Simple as that.

See above.

Just over fifty years ago the Nazis had no problems believing the Aryan race to be superior to the Jewish one, despite the fact that there was no appreciable genetic difference between the two. There is a very real and measurable genetic difference between Coordinators and Naturals. Do you honestly expect people not to take any of this to similar extremes?

[Gatomon41]

No, that's one of the basic ideas of heredity - that children receive a mix of their parents' genes. In normal cases that's a good thing, since intensive inbreeding often results in an emphasis on their negative genetic traits. However, Coordinators are engineered not to have negative genetic traits - ergo, a Coordinator bumping headboards with a Natural will result in their superior genes being diluted by an infusion of inferior blood.
Then that's not called genetic purity, which is really a puesdoscience. What you just descirbed is passive eugenics. It's may be helpful (morally questable though), but pointless if you'r decendents are sterile.

I also remind you that the environment determines wither or not a genetic trait is useful. What may be seen as not very helpful may be helpful in another environment. One can see this with the moths of the Black Forest. Once, White Moths were better euiped to survive than black moths, because white was a good cameoflauge. Howevwer, as the forest turned black, the white moths lost their advantage. Black moths were now able to survive better because they now had better cameoflauge.

This may be seen with the Coordinators, who's own gentic advantages may ironically be their disadvantage.



Didn't stop Patrick Zala from being sure they would find a way around it.

No, but I believe he was more motivated by his hate than his logic.



But it is their genes that make them stronger.
Only if they apply those genes. If a Coordinator did nothing but sit, eat, and sleep, those muscles arn't going to be much help.



That's the very definition of superiority.
Only genetic wise, and only in certain situtaions. Natruals are superiorin respect to Coordinators that they have a better chance of continuing their offspring.

Neither are superior over the other in the human sense.



See above.

Just over fifty years ago the Nazis had no problems believing the Aryan race to be superior to the Jewish one, despite the fact that there was no appreciable genetic difference between the two. There is a very real and measurable genetic difference between Coordinators and Naturals.
Not by much though. Coordinators are still human, only if with better genes.

As I stated, their genetic changes are far from other genetic mods in sf. The Coordinators might as well be human compared to the Abh, Augments, Niztechians, Transhumans, Shapers, Saurons, Draka, etc. etc. In comparsion to these guys, the Coordinators are preety baseline.


Do you honestly expect people not to take any of this to similar extremes?
I'm sure there are idoits in the CE-verse who would put their genetic purity over their future. Plenty of examples in history in which hate dominated over reason.

[rubberchicken]

Then that's not called genetic purity, which is really a puesdoscience. What you just descirbed is passive eugenics. It's may be helpful (morally questable though), but pointless if you'r decendents are sterile.

And again, there will be those who stick to the tenet that science finds a way.


I also remind you that the environment determines wither or not a genetic trait is useful. What may be seen as not very helpful may be helpful in another environment. One can see this with the moths of the Black Forest. Once, White Moths were better euiped to survive than black moths, because white was a good cameoflauge. Howevwer, as the forest turned black, the white moths lost their advantage. Black moths were now able to survive better because they now had better cameoflauge.

This may be seen with the Coordinators, who's own gentic advantages may ironically be their disadvantage. Not unless you demonstrate how exactly these traits become a disadvantage. The CE situation is not the Black Forest.

By your logic, our being human instead of being mere cockroaches could potentially become our greatest weakness when we irradiate the world and render it uninhabitable. True, but extreme, and not a valid argument against our advantages over cockroaches.



No, but I believe he was more motivated by his hate than his logic. Perhaps, perhaps not. After all, science found a way to create the Coordinators, it's hardly unreasonable to expect that it may find a way to sustain them.




Only if they apply those genes. If a Coordinator did nothing but sit, eat, and sleep, those muscles arn't going to be much help.They do apply those genes, which is the entire problem. Nobody, Coordinator or Natural, does nothing but sit, eat, and sleep. Part of what (allegedly) separates humans from animals is that they go out and do other things, which is where the genetic difference becomes noticeable.




Only genetic wise, and only in certain situtaions. Natruals are superiorin respect to Coordinators that they have a better chance of continuing their offspring.

Neither are superior over the other in the human sense. So long as we're talking evolution and environment, we may as well address this. The "human" sense is irrelevant. In terms of the evolutionary playing field, a "pure" Coordinator race would eventually crowd out the Naturals. The stronger genes will prevail.

The reproduction issue is a (rather large) strike against them, but some (many, even) will see this as all the more reason to pursue a solution; it's the only thing holding them back.



Not by much though. Coordinators are still human, only if with better genes.

As I stated, their genetic changes are far from other genetic mods in sf. The Coordinators might as well be human compared to the Abh, Augments, Niztechians, Transhumans, Shapers, Saurons, Draka, etc. etc. In comparsion to these guys, the Coordinators are preety baseline. But still noticeably different in performance and capabilities, which is once again the entire issue.

I doubt anyone from CE has encountered any of these others, although now I'm curious. :p

EDIT: You forgot the Androsynth from Star Control. :gir:



I'm sure there are idoits in the CE-verse who would put their genetic purity over their future. Plenty of examples in history in which hate dominated over reason.Hate, or misplaced vision. There are also those who believe they have the duty to the human race to move it towards the next step.

[Duke]

And again, there will be those who stick to the tenet that science finds a way.
Splice frog DNA into all Coordinators! :D

[Beat]

In the PLANTs, they wear shoes on their hands and hamburgers eat people!

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
In ZAFT Plant, poem reads you!

[Gatomon41]

Not unless you demonstrate how exactly these traits become a disadvantage. The CE situation is not the Black Forest.
Sterlity by the 3rd generation isn't a disadvantage?



By your logic, our being human instead of being mere cockroaches could potentially become our greatest weakness when we irradiate the world and render it uninhabitable. True, but extreme, and not a valid argument against our advantages over cockroaches.

well, the fact is, genetic advantage is only determined by the environment and situtation. That's the only point I'm getting at.


Perhaps, perhaps not. After all, science found a way to create the Coordinators, it's hardly unreasonable to expect that it may find a way to sustain them.
Maybe, but at the rate their going (including deaths from wars, etc), the only way they can suubstain the Coordinator Mod is by having naturals who wish to geneer their children.


They do apply those genes, which is the entire problem. Nobody, Coordinator or Natural, does nothing but sit, eat, and sleep. Part of what (allegedly) separates humans from animals is that they go out and do other things, which is where the genetic difference becomes noticeable.
I was refering to if the Coordinator simply does not build up his muscles, or learn combat technquie, or learn or exercise, the genes would be wasted.



So long as we're talking evolution and environment, we may as well address this. The "human" sense is irrelevant. In terms of the evolutionary playing field, a "pure" Coordinator race would eventually crowd out the Naturals. The stronger genes will prevail.
Not unless you can keep those genes to one generation to another. Survival of the fittest also applies to those can procreate as more than the other group.

On a side note, it's not really extinction, since Coordinators are still human.



The reproduction issue is a (rather large) strike against them, but some (many, even) will see this as all the more reason to pursue a solution; it's the only thing holding them back.
Holding them back from what? Some could say the Coordinators have reached a genetic dead end. They've allowed no room for mutations, no diseases to allow their immune system to naturally adapt, and put themselves in artfical controled envronments. They have no outside stimuli which would help them change.


I doubt anyone from CE has encountered any of these others, although now I'm curious. :p
Domination Control Culture Crest of the Gundam Adromeda Trek on Warworld: Genetic Wars :p


EDIT: You forgot the Androsynth from Star Control. :gir:
And the Adeptus Astares.



Hate, or misplaced vision. There are also those who believe they have the duty to the human race to move it towards the next step.
The question is, what is the next step? Perhaps the question really is, is it really a step?

[rubberchicken]

Sterlity by the 3rd generation isn't a disadvantage?
Science.

*ahem*

This is the song that never ends, it goes on and on my friends...



well, the fact is, genetic advantage is only determined by the environment and situtation. That's the only point I'm getting at. And in this environment they do have an advantage. Practically all the events of Gundam SEED point directly to that.

Start of the series, Natural pilots are getting wtfpwned by the Coordinator legions, except for one (count 'em. One. Unless there's another one who I somehow missed) genius pilot. Naturals want to build mobile suits so they can be true Gundam heroes, but their tiny Natural brains won't allow them to set up a working OS. (Again, an utterly stupid plot point, but one that's there nonetheless.)

Who gets Strike working? A Coordinator.

Who keeps the Archangel intact? A Coordinator.

Who crushes the ZAFT Earth occupation forces? A Coordinator.

Who makes it possible for groups like Orb to use mobile suits? A Coordinator.

How do the Blue Cosmos manage to turn the war around and start using nukes again? Stolen (or leaked, rather) Coordinator technology.

How do the Naturals come up with pilots who can stand against the Coordinator aces? By using science, turning them into physical/emotional wrecks in the process - and they still lose to the Coordinators.

Who saves the day at the end? A Coordinator ship (Eternal), two overpowered Coordinator Gundams (Freedom and Justice), and their Coordinator commanders and pilots.

Really, if Fukuda et al were trying to demonstrate that the Naturals could stand on their own feet against the Coordinators, they didn't do a very good job.


Maybe, but at the rate their going (including deaths from wars, etc), the only way they can suubstain the Coordinator Mod is by having naturals who wish to geneer their children. Some people started singing it not knowing what it was, and now they'll keep on singing it forever just because...

For now they need Naturals. And some Naturals, being people and therefore often egotistical, will want the very best for their children - and will continue to make them Coordinators.


I was refering to if the Coordinator simply does not build up his muscles, or learn combat technquie, or learn or exercise, the genes would be wasted. Just so long as a Coordinator doesn't want to be an athlete, an engineer, a scientist, a musician, a doctor, etc. etc. etc., he'll be just fine.

To think that people criticize the Destiny Plan for eliminating people's freedom of choice... there is no way that people will sit idly by and be told that they cannot live up to their full potential. It's like Harrison Bergeron all over again (moment of silence for Kurt Vonnegut.)

You're a Coordinator athlete who, after devoting your life to training, is about to set a stunning new record in the 100-meter dash. Then you're told that it doesn't count, can't be recorded, because you have an unfair advantage.

You're a Coordinator who studied her ass off to land a position designing mobile suits for Morgenleite Foundry. You're the most qualified for the position, but affirmative action laws require that this job go to a Natural instead.

And so forth. You're basically suggesting that Coordinators give up on human achievement so that Naturals won't feel bad about themselves.


Not unless you can keep those genes to one generation to another. Survival of the fittest also applies to those can procreate as more than the other group.

On a side note, it's not really extinction, since Coordinators are still human. Again, I'm not talking about an entire species, I'm talking about this specific combination of superior traits, which were the entire point of the Coordinators' existence.




Holding them back from what? Some could say the Coordinators have reached a genetic dead end. They've allowed no room for mutations, no diseases to allow their immune system to naturally adapt, and put themselves in artfical controled envronments. They have no outside stimuli which would help them change. They're not at an evolutionary dead end, they've just skipped a few centuries of evolution. They achieved the end result without doing the same amount of work. There's no need for them to adapt to a disease naturally because they've already done it artificially - and once you have the genes, Mother Nature doesn't care if you got them by studying hard or by reading the evolutionary Cliffs Notes.

Naturals have to adapt to the disease the long way. Mutant herpes starts spreading and killing people. A few are genetically resistant to the disease - either by not being infected or by not suffering from symptoms when infected. Those without the gene will gradually die off, and those who have it will be fruitful and multiply. The next generation of humanity is resistant to the disease, thanks to this gene that they've inherited...

...which the Coordinators have had all along.

They both arrive at the same place, but one of them gets there much, much more quickly.



Domination Control Culture Crest of the Gundam Adromeda Trek on Warworld: Genetic Wars :poh god not again :gir:


The question is, what is the next step? Perhaps the question really is, is it really a step?I don't claim to know the answer to this, but I've encountered a disturbing number of people who do. The fact that they may not be correct doesn't stop them from believing it.

[Gatomon41]

Science.

Science dosn't slove everything. Plenty of problems in the world, and we still havn't figured it out.


For now they need Naturals. And some Naturals, being people and therefore often egotistical, will want the very best for their children - and will continue to make them Coordinators.
However, unless they have a rate in which Naturals want to be geneered over the amount killed every year, they're still in danger of hiting ZPG.


To think that people criticize the Destiny Plan for eliminating people's freedom of choice... there is no way that people will sit idly by and be told that they cannot live up to their full potential. It's like Harrison Bergeron all over again (moment of silence for Kurt Vonnegut.)
You mean how people today would rather go to fast food places, watch tv or go online all day, and play video games instead of exercising and studying? People don't need to be told they can't live up to their potnential. They themselves can do that by themselves.


You're a Coordinator athlete who, after devoting your life to training, is about to set a stunning new record in the 100-meter dash. Then you're told that it doesn't count, can't be recorded, because you have an unfair advantage.


And so forth. You're basically suggesting that Coordinators give up on human achievement so that Naturals won't feel bad about themselves.
:confused: Apparently, you misunderstood what I was trying to say: People must work towards potential. An athlete works towards his physical potential. Someone who sits all day in an office wastes that potential.


They're not at an evolutionary dead end, they've just skipped a few centuries of evolution. They achieved the end result without doing the same amount of work.
A few things:

A. How does one know a what the next century of evolution brings, when the environment that causes that evolution dosn't exist? They didn't skip anything, they just used the best genes of current humanity to improve their bodies.

B. As I said, they're sterlie, placed themselves in heavilly controled environments, and gotten rid of any potential for mutation. They have no way to evovle.


There's no need for them to adapt to a disease naturally because they've already done it artificially - and once you have the genes, Mother Nature doesn't care if you got them by studying hard or by reading the evolutionary Cliffs Notes.
There is the risk that because the Coordinator immune system works so well, new diseases may develop to combat these new systems. Also, there is the possiblity that because their immune systems don't work as hard, within a thousand or so years, their systems would be inadquate beacause it hasn't been strengtened



Naturals have to adapt to the disease the long way. Mutant herpes starts spreading and killing people. A few are genetically resistant to the disease - either by not being infected or by not suffering from symptoms when infected. Those without the gene will gradually die off, and those who have it will be fruitful and multiply. The next generation of humanity is resistant to the disease, thanks to this gene that they've inherited...

...which the Coordinators have had all along.

How can already born Coordinators develop a gene for a new strain of a disease that did not exist previously?


They both arrive at the same place, but one of them gets there much, much more quickly.
That's speculation. There is no way to know the next stage of evolution within a century, simply because we don't know the envrionment(s) of the future.


I don't claim to know the answer to this, but I've encountered a disturbing number of people who do. The fact that they may not be correct doesn't stop them from believing it.
Indeed that is distrubing.

Still, Coordinators are not the next stage in evolution. Are they are present day humans with better-than-average present day genes.

[rubberchicken]

Science dosn't slove everything. Plenty of problems in the world, and we still havn't figured it out. But it does solve more problems every day, and continues to do so. No reason to assume that scientific growth will stop tomorrow.


However, unless they have a rate in which Naturals want to be geneered over the amount killed every year, they're still in danger of hiting ZPG.
That depends primarily on the wars - which thus far have been instigated by Naturals, although there's still plenty of dislike to go around on the Coordinators' side.

And when they solve the birth issue, it becomes a moot point.


You mean how people today would rather go to fast food places, watch tv or go online all day, and play video games instead of exercising and studying? People don't need to be told they can't live up to their potnential. They themselves can do that by themselves.

:confused: Apparently, you misunderstood what I was trying to say: People must work towards potential. An athlete works towards his physical potential. Someone who sits all day in an office wastes that potential.
What makes you think that there's some huge percentage of Coordinators who just sit around and do nothing all day? They were specifically given that potential so that it could be used. The purpose of creating Coordinators was not so that they could strut around and proclaim themselves to be better than Naturals while resting on their laurels - it was so that they could actually be better than Naturals, by excelling at what they do. For precisely that reason, Coordinators are going to be less likely to do nothing with their lives - their very existence carries with it a sense of purpose that Naturals don't necessarily have. They have the George Glenn example to live up to.




A few things:

A. How does one know a what the next century of evolution brings, when the environment that causes that evolution dosn't exist? They didn't skip anything, they just used the best genes of current humanity to improve their bodies.

B. As I said, they're sterlie, placed themselves in heavilly controled environments, and gotten rid of any potential for mutation. They have no way to evovle.


There is the risk that because the Coordinator immune system works so well, new diseases may develop to combat these new systems. Also, there is the possiblity that because their immune systems don't work as hard, within a thousand or so years, their systems would be inadquate beacause it hasn't been strengtened


How can already born Coordinators develop a gene for a new strain of a disease that did not exist previously?


That's speculation. There is no way to know the next stage of evolution within a century, simply because we don't know the envrionment(s) of the future.

In all of these cases, Coordinators are no less in "danger" than Naturals. The future will affect both equally. A new and unknown disease will be just as unknown to the Naturals as to the Coordinators; the Naturals will have no specific advantage. Furthermore, as the Coordinators are the ones who embrace engineering and artificial solutions to problems, they are the ones most likely to find a swift resolution.


Still, Coordinators are not the next stage in evolution. Are they are present day humans with better-than-average present day genes.

By your own argument: how do you know that the course of evolution wouldn't naturally lead to a Coordinator-like breed of people? We won't stop being "human" until there's an environmental need for it - but Coordinators have already been demonstrated to be stronger, faster, and smarter than other humans. In a straight-up competition, the stronger, faster, and smarter one comes out on top. It's why forced integration of Naturals and Coordinators (remember waaaay back when we were still on-topic?) is asking for trouble.

[Duke]

Start of the series, Natural pilots are getting wtfpwned by the Coordinator legions, except for one (count 'em. One. Unless there's another one who I somehow missed) genius pilot.
Don't forget about Lowe. Sure, he wasn't the greatest pilot right out of the gate, but he did fend off a bunch of GINNs early on using Red Astray.

[CustomMagnum]

Don't forget about Lowe. Sure, he wasn't the greatest pilot right out of the gate, but he did fend off a bunch of GINNs early on using Red Astray.

Lowe had Eight telling him what to do and modifying the OS for him. He pretty much doesn't count when compared to Mu. Not to mention that Lowe was not part of the Earth Forces military.

[rubberchicken]

Don't forget about Lowe. Sure, he wasn't the greatest pilot right out of the gate, but he did fend off a bunch of GINNs early on using Red Astray.

Haven't read Astray, which may be my loss due to the supposed absence of Kira and Lacus therein. So, two genius pilots.


Lowe had Eight telling him what to do and modifying the OS for him. He pretty much doesn't count when compared to Mu. Not to mention that Lowe was not part of the Earth Forces military.
It doesn't matter so much that he's not EFA if he's still a Natural successfully killing Coordinators at their own game.

[HellCat]

Lowe had Eight telling him what to do and modifying the OS for him. He pretty much doesn't count when compared to Mu. Not to mention that Lowe was not part of the Earth Forces military.

Lowe only had 8 assisting him, it's not like Lowe had 8 fighting the battles for him. I believe it's officially said Cagalli had a similar set up in the Rouge. Saying it was all about 8 is like saying that paperclip mascot in Word created anything you wrote.

[rubberchicken]

Lowe only had 8 assisting him, it's not like Lowe had 8 fighting the battles for him. I believe it's officially said Cagalli had a similar set up in the Rouge. Saying it was all about 8 is like saying that paperclip mascot in Word created anything you wrote.
You underestimate the insidious power of Microsoft.

EDIT: Again, I haven't read Astray, but this sounds sort of like when Amuro was stumbling around like a moron at the very beginning of MSG. He survived because of the Gundam, not because of any skill on his part. Is that anything like this?

[HellCat]

You underestimate the insidious power of Microsoft.

EDIT: Again, I haven't read Astray, but this sounds sort of like when Amuro was stumbling around like a moron at the very beginning of MSG. He survived because of the Gundam, not because of any skill on his part. Is that anything like this?

Basically, when ZAFT raided Heliopolis, the chief backer of the Astray project made a desperate bid to save the 3 prototypes they had and stored in each one key data- Red Frame got the partially completed Natural friendly OS, Blue Frame got blueprints for various upgrades and Gold Frame got the information needed to use weapons produced for EA and ZAFT MS. Lowe gained ownership of Red Frame meaning that in combination with 8 (his semi-custom AI computer handheld), he as a Natural can actually operate the MS. 8 is hooked up in the cockpit whilst Lowe is in action and primarily serves to keep him up to date eg if Lowe is running short on power, 8 will make sure he knows. I believe it's said at some point that 8 also has a history of combat techniques uploaded in him so if Lowe himself is in a real bind he can consult 8 for suggestions. However, Lowe himself is the one controlling the MS and has to rely on his own strategies and skill. 8 just makes sure things run smoothly on the technical side and helps Lowe multi task and enact commands more quickly.

[rubberchicken]

Basically, when ZAFT raided Heliopolis, the chief backer of the Astray project made a desperate bid to save the 3 prototypes they had and stored in each one key data- Red Frame got the partially completed Natural friendly OS, Blue Frame got blueprints for various upgrades and Gold Frame got the information needed to use weapons produced for EA and ZAFT MS. Lowe gained ownership of Red Frame meaning that in combination with 8 (his semi-custom AI computer handheld), he as a Natural can actually operate the MS. 8 is hooked up in the cockpit whilst Lowe is in action and primarily serves to keep him up to date eg if Lowe is running short on power, 8 will make sure he knows. I believe it's said at some point that 8 also has a history of combat techniques uploaded in him so if Lowe himself is in a real bind he can consult 8 for suggestions. However, Lowe himself is the one controlling the MS and has to rely on his own strategies and skill. 8 just makes sure things run smoothly on the technical side and helps Lowe multi task and enact commands more quickly.
Ah. *Makes a note to give Astray a look*