Battlestar Galactica "Crossroads Part 2" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Swordfish_II]

http://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/sc-fi.jpghttp://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/bsg.jpg

Battlestar Galactica
320 - Crossroads Part 2

"Baltar's trial leads to leads to vicious betrayals and new alliances... but who are the final five Clyons?"

[Anyone00]

In the original series there were third parties involved possessing higher technologies and consciousness that either the Colonies or the Cylons. I wonder if Starbuck's reappearance and claims of visiting Earth is a result of similar third parties being included in the new series and showing their hand or is it just a Cylon trick or Lee hallucinating?

As for four of the five final Cylons: are they really Cylons or are they just having their heads screwed with?

[Discloner]

As for four of the five final Cylons: are they really Cylons or are they just having their heads screwed with?I'm just going to assume that they are indeed cylons because we've been told by the series creator that we'd find out who the final five were in this episodes.

That being said, they really didn't do much to surprise us. I don't know about anyone else, but I saw the Starbuck thing coming since the episode she died in; and the other four were made pretty obvious over the course of these last two episodes...kept expecting for them to toss in something completely unexpected; but it never came.

That being said the episode wasn't bad. Tons of stuff happened that could lead to very exciting plots in season 4.

[Wounded_Dragon]

This is gonna be a long painful wait for the year 2008 and the rest of the show that makes me go wow. :sweat:

The final mood was really well done.

[EroSennin]

Wow what a fantastic season finale. So we see the final 5 and I was damn glad to see Starbuck back. I didnt think she'd be back so soon after I heard an interview where she said she just got a new pilot for nbc.

[Duke]

Wait, so who was the 5th Cylon?

Why do I have a feeling we're gonna have a time skip next season so that Hera & Tyrol's kid (forget his name) can play a more active role in the plot?

I figured Starbuck was going to come back, but I was expecting it to be next season, honestly.

Also saw Baltar's not-guilty thing coming a mile away, only cemented by Apollo's little rant there.

That said...2008!? I know Sci Fi likes to stretch out BSG, but come on!

[Paul_Cousins]

This episode rocked. This is probably one the top five best episodes of the series. 10 out of 10. This episode was the pay off for the entire series.

From the moment the Lee when on the stand to testify, more like a good summon (Lee really has matured and become very wise since the beginning of the series), to the panning of Earth, it was only very good roller coaster ride.

All it took one statement by an honest, honorable man to save Balter.

And I loved Saw statement at the end, "My name is Saul Tigh. I am an officer in the Colonial Fleet. Whatever else I am... Whatever else it means... That is the man I want to be. And if I die today, that's the man I'll be."

Well we know who 4 of the other 5 cylons are. So who is the fifth...

Also, though it was not directly mentioned, there are now two cylon hybrids, not just Athena's child.

And what was that song at the end? I would like to buy the CD to it to listen to.

It bites that we will have to wait till 2008 for the fourth season, but this episode is probably going to spawn a 100 fanfics to keep us busy reading.



Edit:I found out what the songs title is from the BSG tv.com website, the title is "All Along the Watchtower".

[RedKing52]

I hereby nominate Lee's entire speech as my favorite moment of the whole series (with Galactica's jump into New Caprica's atmosphere close behind ).

Now, my thoughts and feelings. Ah, oh f***? I'm...I'm going to go to sleep and try to process this in the morning. Or even better, go watch End of EVA and see if the mind f***s cancel each other out or what not...Until then, I see no reason not to give it a perfect score. Don't let the rumors of the DTV prove to be false, Mr. Moore. Don't keep us waiting too long.

5/5

[The Clown Prince]

Man, so much to process in this episode. But in a good way. :D Part of me though was disappointed on how predictable everything was. Baltar's not guilty, the fact that only those 4 heard the music obviously meant "something" and my personal guess as to what it was turned out to be true. and then there is the fact that Starbuck returned. The surprise though that she said she had been to Earth, knows where it is, and is gonna lead everyone there.

So what's the connection between 6, Roslin, Hera, and Athena?

I did really like the camera panning away from everything, and then zooming in on Earth. I would really like to know what kind of Earth everyone is going to arrive to. Is it a futuristic Earth, or an Earth that we know? Was the 13th colony the reason we have humans on Earth?

There is a great interview over at Salon.com here (http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2007/03/24/battlestar/index.html) with Ronald D. Moore. The best and most important part of it I'll post below but do check out the rest of the interview, there is some really good other tidbits about the show....



One of the delicate issues with serialized dramas is that they can run out of gas.

Well, you can argue that daytime soap operas never seem to run out of gas -- they go on for 20 years! But we're not really set up to do that. Ours has a beginning, middle and end. Our main title every week says "A Search for Earth," and at some point you gotta find earth, or it becomes "Gilligan's Island." The audience loses faith that you're ever going to get anywhere and the cylons are never going to destroy the Galactica and what's the point. We've always felt that there's an end to this show, and we've moved into the third act of a three-act structure. Especially after this season's finale, we've moved the story to a place where we're talking about conclusions and climaxes and what's it all about -- getting into the endgame. How long it takes to finish out the saga is another matter.

So you couldn't say now whether you think of Season 4 as the last of the series?

I'm considering that right now, to be honest. It's in the air. I don't know. It hasn't been formally decided and I haven't made my own decision. It's a possibility.
The worst thing that could happen to us is if we overstayed our welcome and got to a place where we had not finished the story and then we got canceled. I'd rather go out on my own terms creatively and go out strong.

We won't be seeing Season 4 until January 2008, but I understand there's going to be some kind of miniseries or movie coming before then?

There is something that they're calling "extra episodes" or "extended episodes" -- they keep shifting the nomenclature. Essentially, we are shooting two hours of "Galactica" that will be broadcast on SciFi Channel sometime in the fall. Let's say they broadcast it on a Friday; then, on the following Monday, it will be available on DVD.
That story will not pick up our cliffhanger at the end of Season 3. That didn't seem right. The story will be set on the Battleship Pegasus and will take place in the past, relative to where we are in Season 3. But the events set up in that story will then pay off in Season 4.

What was the reasoning behind doing that?

They came to us. It gives Home Video something to sell in the stores. Since we won't be back until January, which is a long time to be off the air, it gives the fans something to see and keeps the show alive. So it serves multiple masters. There was no way we could pick up the cliffhanger in that format, and then ask people to wait to really start the season later. One of the story lines everyone had really liked was the Pegasus story and the character of Admiral Cain, so we decided to go with that.

There's been talk of you doing another series called "Caprica," set before the cylon attack on the colony of that name. Is that still happening?

It's possible. It's been in development at SciFi for a while and they haven't picked it up. And I don't know if they're going to pick it up at this point. There's talk of doing it as a TV movie and seeing how that works, as a back-door pilot, much as we did with the "Galactica" miniseries. Right now there's nothing telling me that they're going to move on it anytime soon, so I'm starting to feel that it's going to remain on the development shelf.
It was a different kind of show. Instead of an action-adventure sci-fi piece, it was more of a prime-time soap, a sci-fi "Dallas." It was about a family, the Adamas, and a company, and it was about the creation of the cylons 50 years ago. It was not going to be space-based, but set entirely on the planet of Caprica. But it would have sci-fi touches, and it would deal with issues like artificial intelligence and the various schemings and backbitings that you get in the traditional soap opera.

Are you already at work on Season 4 of "Battlestar Galactica"?

Yep, we've broken the first eight episodes. We're pretty happy. There are a lot of things coming; a lot of things change in the season finale of this season and propel us into the story lines of next season.

Can we expect something in this Sunday's season finale that will be as surprising as the finale to Season 2?

Well, the Season 2 finale is a pretty high bar. It certainly had some shocks. I don't know if we can really top Season 2, but it's up there.


I'm sure we'll be hearing by years end when the hype machine begins for the airing of these episodes if they will indeed be the final ones.

I really hope, HOPE that when the show does end, we get to see everyone spend time on Earth, and get an explanation of what happend to the 13th colony. Atlantis perhaps? Something else? I don't know. I just don't want a cheap ending like Voyager gave us. God, that was terrible to do the fans of the show.

The Clown Prince

[The Clown Prince]

An interesting theory by a poster at Aintitcool....


But if the first Cylon war was the result of the mechanical Cylons gaining sentience and rebelling, for Tigh to be a skinjob the skinjobs would have to predate the mechanical Cylons. And that doesn't make sense. Unless the skinjob Cylons have never really been Cylons at all. After all, we only have their word for it that they are an advanced model of the toasters - what if they're lying?

Going a little further there, Adama and Tigh have been friends for decades, before the Cylons rebelled I believe. What if the mechanical Cylons have always been that, mechanical. Some third party comes across their path after the first Cylon war when they left Caprica and took control of them. The old models that rebelled are never seen again (which BTW I have been hoping for badly in this show), and we get these controlled non-sentient versions of the originals.

Interesting theory that the human looking Cylons might not be Cylons at all....

Plus a lot of the posters over think that those 4 are not Cylons, but like Starbuck, something much more. They're probably these "Final 5" that has been talked about, but may not be "Cylons" like we know.

The Clown Prince

[JohnCrichton]

Tigh being a skinjob is what's set me thinking the most. That and this quote here "it was about the creation of the cylons 50 years ago.." So yeah, with Tigh... it'd be impossible. I was thinking about this with some others. They were kids a long time ago and have histories that everyone knows.

I don't think they'd go the clone route cuz that would be cheap.

But I've been saying since Season 1 that there's a third alien party out there. The gods of Kobol.

Remember when they found Kobol there's the legend that some alien race worked with the humans to get them going. Then Boomer says, "We know more about your religion than you do."

Since then I figured that Phantom Six and Phantom Baltar are alien entities... gods of Kobol.

That and that when the mech Cylons went out to space they found the gods out there and brought 'em back for the big war.

"What if God felt he made a mistake with the humans?" So, the gods came back to wipe out the humans.

These aliens/gods have been around for a long time it sounds like, so they could have planeted some of their own in the human race like Tigh, Boomer, and the others.

That these Final Five are singing an Earth song could mean this third party has ties to Earth.

Kara being back was a surprise. I knew she'd be back, but I thought she wsa gonna come back late in the next or final season.

Didn't we see her ship blow up and debris fly everywhere? I could see Kara coming back, but her ship? Her return, I thought meant she was the Fifth Cylon and it would explain how she was able to get visions and the such.

Another curious thing... Roslin getting woozey and powering down the same time the fleet did. I was thinking, could the blood she got infused with be changing her?

I really liked the rock opera ending. Something about the way it was ending with the guitar rockin' gave me a feeling of Beast Wars or something.

5/5

Awesome... but motherlovin' brutal we gotta frackin' wait 'til 2008 to see new episodes. >__O

EDIT: Another thing, if they're hearing songs from Earth, maybe the Cylons are artificial humans from a destroyed Earth. The Earth got used up, destroyed, and the human race had to go out and colonize out in space, running into the gods of Kobol along the way to create the 12 colonies.

Left behind were the 12 artificial humans that maybe want the humans to pay for the crimes they visited on Earth.

[Anyone00]

...we've been told by the series creator that we'd find out who the final five were in this episodes.

Well then, O.K., they're Cylons.

As for Tigh's age: Well he did say 'all this time' and refereed to the two wars I think he still might be a more recent Cylon implanted with the memories of the original human Tigh.

Or maybe Count Iblis did it:p

[JohnCrichton]

These writers and good and know cheap plot devices when they see 'em. Making him not the original Tigh would take away from the impact of the revelation.

He's the original, we all just have to figure out what that means. And I think it means that the third party alien race (who're either gods of Kobol or artificial humans from Earth) planted people among the colonies a long time ago.

[mr.happy]

This was quite good, but very understated for a season finale, and not the least bit surprising. Baltar's trial was generally much more entertaining than I thought it would have been, although the ending seemed a little abrupt, and it did seem to lack a little bit of back-and-forth throughout. It was kind of a cake walk for Team Baltar, and the outcome was never in doubt.

Kara's inevitable return seemed too soon. It would have been better to have killed her off much earlier in the season, but it was a good return in any event, even if it still isn't completely clear if she's just a vision of sorts, a Cylon, or whatever.

This one didn't have me itching for more the same way the season 1 finale did, but it was a huge improvement over the season 2 finale.

Didn't like the flirting between Adama and Roslin, though.

[The Clown Prince]

It is official! Ronald D. Moore does CONFIRM that those 4 revealed as Cylons are indeed Cylons. But that there is something different about them than the other ones.

You can read the great interview which was conducted after last lights season finale at the link here http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm Moore does comment on the fact about Col. Tigh's age and what does it really mean. And he makes mention that we now have two human/Cylon hybrid children.

The Clown Prince

[DarkAngel]

This was quite good, but very understated for a season finale, and not the least bit surprising.
I think the lack of surprise is the big "problem". I loved the episode, but unlike the previous two season enders, it didn't pack any surprise for me. In part, I'm upset about the previous weeks preview for the episode and the inclusion of the "we're all cylons" line. Connecting the dots would have been easy enough without that.

But overall, I preferred it over last year's. "Lay Down Your Burdens, II" had a better cliffhanger with respect to the surprise/shock factor (though the revelation of 4/5 of the Final Five is more meaningful to the show's arc), but "Crossroads, II" was a stronger episode overall.


Baltar's trial was generally much more entertaining than I thought it would have been, although the ending seemed a little abrupt, and it did seem to lack a little bit of back-and-forth throughout. It was kind of a cake walk for Team Baltar, and the outcome was never in doubt.
The outcome was never in doubt, and you're right about the lack of "back-and-forth". I was expecting more individuals to take the stand, such as Zarek, and did expect more re-directs and a longer proceeding. I also would have liked to have seen Lee's words during their closing statement and to see the prosecution's closing statement as well.

But it was entertaining. And Lee's statements really made the trial for me. I definitely appreciated the hypocrisy of Roslin's blanket pardon while still putting Baltar on trial.


Kara's inevitable return seemed too soon.
I thought so too. But I wouldn't have killed her off sooner, which I don't think would have been fair to Sackhoff, nor beneficial to the season. I'd have just preferred they didn't show her at the end, and instead saved her return appearance for the beginning of next season. That would have created more debate/uncertainty over whether Starbuck would be back or not.


Didn't like the flirting between Adama and Roslin, though.
The "flirting" has been going on for quite some time.

[mr.happy]

I think the lack of surprise is the big "problem". I loved the episode, but unlike the previous two season enders, it didn't pack any surprise for me. In a way I don't really mind either. It had just enough to be a good episode, and too often season finales go a little too far, I think.


In part, I'm upset about the previous weeks preview for the episode and the inclusion of the "we're all cylons" line. Connecting the dots would have been easy enough without that.I always stay away from previews and spoilers, so I hadn't seen any of that, but it was pretty obvious what was going on. I'm actually kind of disappointed that this bunch turned out to be 4 of the Final 5, assuming it's not just a trick. Two of them are just so-so characters and late-comers to the show, and they never really had much relevance, Chief had already been through his Am-I-a-Cylon phase last season, and only Tigh seems like a worthy candidate, but even that is kinda hard to swallow. Still, he's gotta be pretty jazzed about being able to get his eye back now. ;)

I think Dee would have been a much better Final 5 candidate than most of this bunch.


The outcome was never in doubt, and you're right about the lack of "back-and-forth". I was expecting more individuals to take the stand, such as ZarekNot to mention Six. She had clearly been teased as an important player in the trial, but where was she? Would her testimony that the Cylons forced Baltar at gunpoint have been too much of a legal and creative deus ex machina? I thought it would have made a nice counter to Gaeta's perjury.


I thought so too. But I wouldn't have killed her off sooner, which I don't think would have been fair to Sackhoff, nor beneficial to the season. I'd have just preferred they didn't show her at the end, and instead saved her return appearance for the beginning of next season.Yes and no. While it would have been effective to leave it at a surprised Lee staring at someone we can't see, it wouldn't have been half the ending without Starbuck's revelation that she has been to Earth, and she's going to take them there. It's not like she has had an awful lot to do this season anyway, until she was killed in the Scar - Special Edition episode, so I still say it would have made more sense to take her out earlier.

I'm still not convinced this was really Starbuck in the flesh, though. Not only did she drop off Lee's space-radar(?) similar to how Starbuck's own phantom Cylon did, and nobody else seemed to see or react to her, but she flew a standard Viper, not a Cylon ship. I would not be surprised if she's just in Lee's head similar to how Baltar and Six are in each other's heads. It was just too convinient that the grounded Lee would suddenly find himself in the cockpit of a Viper just as Starbuck returns.


The "flirting" has been going on for quite some time.True, but it was particularly sickening this time. I just can't stand that sort of sickly "you hang up first", "no, you hang up", "no, you", "you" crap.

[DarkAngel]

Two of them are just so-so characters and late-comers to the show, and they never really had much relevance, Chief had already been through his Am-I-a-Cylon phase last season, and only Tigh seems like a worthy candidate, but even that is kinda hard to swallow.
But I think it would have been too much to swallow if all the final five were major players. I like Tyrol's inclusion, because it adds more credence/weight to his earlier doubt/fear. Tori is a surprise, but I like her for that reason. I wouldn't want too many obvious choices in the 5. And Anders, I think, has been a great addition to the show and is among my favorite supporting characters. Tigh has been one of my favorite characters ever since the miniseries, largely on the strength of Hogan's portrayal. I'm quite satisfied with the choices.

I also love the irony of Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders playing such a major part in the Caprica resistance, as well as in the secret jury in "Collaborators." All three were, at times, more than willing to shed human blood in vengeance for aiding the cylons, and now they turn out to be cylons. Love that.

And I'm wondering if Starbuck's meant to be a Final Fiver or not? I was thinking right after the episode she was. Now I'm not sure. If not her, who's the last member?


I think Dee would have been a much better Final 5 candidate than most of this bunch.
It would have elevated her character, but I'm not a big fan of hers for whatever reason. Never really liked her all that much.


I thought it would have made a nice counter to Gaeta's perjury.
Yeah, it would have. And I hope we get some scenes early next season between Baltar and Gaeta. I'd love to see the latter called on his perjury. Talk about balls, especially after nearly getting airlocked without any real evidence of collaboration. He's lucky to be alive and shouldn't have any business fabricating evidence against another supposed collaborator.

Of course that traumatic experience is probably what motivated him to lie. At least partly.


True, but it was particularly sickening this time. I just can't stand that sort of sickly "you hang up first", "no, you hang up", "no, you", "you" crap.
I don't remember that being the dynamic. Are you sure you weren't reading more into it than was actually there?

[mr.happy]

But I think it would have been too much to swallow if all the final five were major players. I like Tyrol's inclusion, because it adds more credence/weight to his earlier doubt/fear.Yes, it was always annoying how that particular subplot never went anywhere, so I suppose this is a reasonable pay-off, but he's just so lame a character, it's hard to imagine him having any relevance as a Final 5. It's hard enough to take some of the regular Cylons seriously as it is.


Tori is a surprise, but I like her for that reason.I hate Tori for replacing Billy.


And Anders, I think, has been a great addition to the show and is among my favorite supporting characters.I never cared for him. He always seemed to be shoe-horned into storylines, and from a character perspecive, he's really just another take on Helo.


Tigh has been one of my favorite characters ever since the miniseries, largely on the strength of Hogan's portrayal.Yes, Hogan has done a terrific job, particularly this season. His character was often badly underwritten or predictable, but Hogan did such a great job with what little he was given. It's more my concerns about him potentially leaving the Tigh character behind that motivates what little objections I have to his inclusion into this exclusive little group.


And I'm wondering if Starbuck's meant to be a Final Fiver or not? I was thinking right after the episode she was. Now I'm not sure. If not her, who's the last member?Starbuck would make a worthy Final 5'er, but also a predictable one. Somehow I don't think she's the last one.


It would have elevated her character, but I'm not a big fan of hers for whatever reason. Never really liked her all that much.Recently, she has been annoying, but she was great in small doses when she used to be the conscience of the fleet in a way. She was much better with Billy than she was/is with Lee, though.


I don't remember that being the dynamic. Are you sure you weren't reading more into it than was actually there?Hey, are you flirting with me? ;)

There's just something about those two that reminds me of the worst ever viagra ad. I'm sure they'll have matching bathtubs next season.