Has Gundam gotten lazy?

[HellCat]

I was thinking recently, in the last few years we've had at least 2 Gundam stories that just re-use pre-existing mecha with no real context (True Odyssey and Gundam ALIVE). With that and things like the Destiny ZAFT Zeon rehashes, have they gotten that lazy that now they blatantly just want to rehash things with as little new work as possible?

[Juu-kuchi]

A probable likelihood.

[GWOtaku]

I don't know that I agree, some designs are derivative but some are pretty unique. With True Odyssey/MS Saga: A New Dawn, the whole point of that game was to put Gundams & mobile suits into an RPG and let players customize things. Never played but it seemed like a good concept to me, & not one that demands new/fresh designs. A lot of the novetly for fans would've been lost otherwise. Of course the game apparently didn't do that well, so maybe it did need something more.

I can't speak to Gundam ALIVE. As far as Destiny goes, ZAFT MS were taking after Zeon mobile suits to begin with so at least putting in the Zaku and Gouf made sense within the continuity of the Cosmic Era universe. It was also nice to see them modernized and holding up pretty well in combat after UC, where the Zaku is iconic but soon became an outclassed metal punching bag for other, more advanced mobile suits. In Destiny, Zakus are packing heat with beam rifles on par with what the Buster Gundam had. They're derivative, but I like watching them.

As we've talked about before though, there could have been a lot more diversity. Lots of designs got reduced to really brief appearences, like all those mobile suits at Armory One and those bug-like MS that Freedom had to kill after the assassin attack at Malchio's place. Aside from the mobile armors the EA's arsenal didn't look all that different, and terrifying as it was Destroy was ripped straight from Zeta Gundam except with even more guns. So the Earth Alliance looked the same and ZAFT designs were either old or taken from Zeon. Looking at most episodes you wouldn't know that they had anything besides the Zaku/Gouf. And then there's the "new" Freedom and Justice, this is why I prefer Akatsuki (high-tech and awesome) and Destiny (a logical and practical upgrade from Impulse).

Then there's Astray and MSV, which have awesome designs but haven't been put into animated form in any significant way. I blame the animation budget. They end up recycling footage for the MS they've got, let alone using some for a few fresh designs. They don't have to pull a Zeon and toss out a new MS of the week to harass the main chracters, but if they placed more importance on this they could work in some more designs to keep things fresh. Usually in Gundam mecha change and evolve over time; in Destiny mobile suits were mostly the same from beginning to end.

To sum it up: they didn't get lazy, they got cheap. It all goes back to the big criticism I've made before, that lately with animated Gundam they spend so much money and effort on celebrity power that they don't pay enough attention to the bread and butter of what makes it fun to watch. If you look around there are still tons of good designs out there, but in my view fewer of them are making the big time. Manga is great and all, but if they really wanted to sell model kits they'd go out of their way to show off more of their work in animation.

[HellCat]

I don't know that I agree, some designs are derivative but some are pretty unique. With True Odyssey/MS Saga: A New Dawn, the whole point of that game was to put Gundams & mobile suits into an RPG and let players customize things. Never played but it seemed like a good concept to me, & not one that demands new/fresh designs. A lot of the novetly for fans would've been lost otherwise. Of course the game apparently didn't do that well, so maybe it did need something more.

I can't speak to Gundam ALIVE. As far as Destiny goes, ZAFT MS were taking after Zeon mobile suits to begin with so at least putting in the Zaku and Gouf made sense within the continuity of the Cosmic Era universe. It was also nice to see them modernized and holding up pretty well in combat after UC, where the Zaku is iconic but soon became an outclassed metal punching bag for other, more advanced mobile suits. In Destiny, Zakus are packing heat with beam rifles on par with what the Buster Gundam had. They're derivative, but I like watching them.

I don't agree on the Destiny issue. ZAFT MS were definetly Zeon inspired but they were updated to be more clean and compact. Suddenly we have these designs with exposed cables and useless spikes. There's just no logical design evolution there.

(Note- PLEASE don't let this be yet another Destiny discussion).

[Zeonic Freak]

"Lazy" to me is not as harsh as the words i have for the newer gundam series.

Well, to me the only good thing Gundam/Bandai has done is the Zeta Gundam movies (which i havent seen all of as of yet, ill get there when i finish the series).

I think Bandai should just take a break from gundam, kinda like the length between Turn A and Seed, that was like 3 years right there.

Because as everyone knows, the more demand for a series to fit the needs of people, the more degreading it will become...

[GWOtaku]

Lets not stray into series quality, as that will lead to a repeat of discussions/arguments that have been had before. As I understand it, the topic is asking about originality in mecha designs.

I think there is a degree of unnecessary aesthetic quality present in many mobile suits and Gundams, so I'm not so worked up over technical consistency. I do think co-opting old designs is terribly unoriginal, but I'm not prepared to say "Gundam is lazy" when there's no lack of original designs put out there even today.

My opinion is that there hasn't been a shift in creativity, but rather this is a trend of how and what they choose to market.

[Hanshotfirst113]

Is this in reference to the mecha designs or storytelling or something else?

[Lord Dalek]

You're asking this NOW?

[Hanshotfirst113]

Lazy or repetive; there's a subtle distinction ;)?

[Lighthammer]

Through and through Gundam *IS* a rehash every time. Thats not something we should really loose sight of.

Gundam series continue to exist today because the concept is popular but almost every series has taken the same basic elements that made previous series popular and rehashed them.

This is almost a concept that is unheard of the US but very popular in Japan ironically because of grave differences in copyright laws.

Gundam itself is still a little unique in the respects that many people who worked on the first series broke away and made other series and as time went on people who worked on the new series also broke away to make their own series making many of the rehashes unique and 'legal' while still being able to fish out of the old bag of tricks.

On *MANY* levels, this is still why Gundam Wing went over so well in the US and why no other Gundam series compared to date (sadly SEED included).

Many people in the US want NEW, not rehashes. Something has to be gone for a significant number of years before they will be willing to accept a new version of an old story where as in Japanese culture they tend to like maintaining something in society for a long time even though its face has changed a little.

So yea, to answer Hellcats question a bit more directly: Have the gundam series gotten lazy? No, they have been. The US's introduction into the Gundam series simply gives us a different perspective on it.

[Lutochris]

You think Gundam is just now starting to get repetitive?

And don't think this is a Japan vs. America thing, because we've had Star Trek for much longer than Japan has had Gundam.

P.S. I've been meaning to ask so instead of starting a new thread, does anyone know the status of ZZ or Victory as far as a U.S. release? Will it ever happen?

[HellCat]

I didn't say this is a new trend. My point was in the last 2 or 3 years they've put out some works that are especially blatant in reuse of mecha designs, to the point they just slap pre-existing designs in out of context.

[Zeonic Freak]

You think Gundam is just now starting to get repetitive?

And don't think this is a Japan vs. America thing, because we've had Star Trek for much longer than Japan has had Gundam.

P.S. I've been meaning to ask so instead of starting a new thread, does anyone know the status of ZZ or Victory as far as a U.S. release? Will it ever happen?

You and me are in the same boat bro. I thought i heard something like 2 years back about ZZ getting ready to come to america or a English VA list. But seeing how bad Bandai is putting Gundam in the US, i dont think very soon...

As for Victory, i wish as well. Its on the top of my list of "series others need to watch because its that good". My prediction is i think well see MG Victory Gundam models before Bandai ever decides to put the series here in the US.

[Ragebot]

On *MANY* levels, this is still why Gundam Wing went over so well in the US and why no other Gundam series compared to date (sadly SEED included).

Not to mention the little small fact that Wing aired on weeknights at 5:30...

[Lighthammer]

You think Gundam is just now starting to get repetitive?

And don't think this is a Japan vs. America thing, because we've had Star Trek for much longer than Japan has had Gundam.

P.S. I've been meaning to ask so instead of starting a new thread, does anyone know the status of ZZ or Victory as far as a U.S. release? Will it ever happen?

Unlike Gundam, Star Trek goes through phases of popularity.

Yes, between TNG, DS9 and STV, star trek went non-stop for 15 years but the ratings PLUMMETED after TNG ended. They dropped even more when DS9 ended, they were perpetually non-existent when STV ended and when Enterprise started, there simply was so little fan base to support it. They were forced to try to bring in a new crowd by adding sex appeal. Rick Berman was stripped of the legacy after Enterprise failed.

This isn't a good example of a franchise that sustained itself. Star Trek as a legacy still beats strong in the Sci-Fi community but Star Trek the series wore itself out LOOOOOOONG ago.

If anything, this demonstrated how accurate I was from the get go. Post Baby Boomers, Americans don't have the attention span to care about series for more then a few years.

I'll prorate this because I KNOW someone is going to bring up Simpsons. It's a totally different ball game with that series being arguably the first series that attracts crowds of all ages.

[ImpulsiveNinja]

I just desperately Cling to wing.. then again I stopped following Anime.

I just had this conversation with my friend today after exploring the silly dub lines in Wing.

"I guess the gaurds we randomly gathered from elsewhere have no effect on those mobile suits!"

yes.. that was said..

Anyway.. I always felt that Gundam could have always been better.. I think I like wing because it's Bad. But I love it all the same.

plus it's like Firefly. And Firefly I love.

[Ragebot]

Yes, between TNG, DS9 and STV, star trek went non-stop for 15 years but the ratings PLUMMETED after TNG ended. They dropped even more when DS9 ended, they were perpetually non-existent when STV ended and when Enterprise started, there simply was so little fan base to support it.

It's a bit more complex than this. True, the ratings for DS9 weren't that great once TNG ended, but that had to do with the growing amount of new dramatic series in first-run syndication. Remember, when TNG premiered in 1987, it was the only dramatic series to debut in syndication. The landscape of television had changed considerably when DS9 ended.

The real definiative sign of Trek's flagging popularity was the dismal ratings Star Trek: Voyager received in its fifth season (1998/99), the show had gone from being UPN's flagship series to being one of their least-watched programs.

However, VOY still maintained tolerable ratings up to and including its final season and the same goes for the first season of Enterprise. Both the VOY finale and the ENT premiere did quite well. It was at the end of season 2 (2002/03) when the show's ratings drowned to a point of no return.

[Gatomon41]

The thing both Gundam and Star Trek shared was the fact both were bening produced, writen, and directed by a group of worn out hacks.

Berman and Braga was starting to show they burnt out their creativity by Voyager, and having them produce and write Enterprise showed they lost any talent what so ever. Fukuda and Morosawa likewise also began to show they were laging by GSD. Both groups practably ran their series into the ground.

My suggestion to get over this laziness is to get a new producer and director. Enterprise 4th season was proably the best when a new producer and writers took over. Not only did they scrap the previous and pointless main arc, they also began with a new and enliving format. They did what needed to be done.

It's probably radical to suggest the CE-verse do the same. Drop the nowhere plot, the rehashed mechs, and the same boring story, and produce something new with a new plot and direction.

[Lighthammer]

Berman and Braga was starting to show they burnt out their creativity by Voyager, and having them produce and write Enterprise showed they lost any talent what so ever. Fukuda and Morosawa likewise also began to show they were laging by GSD. Both groups practably ran their series into the ground.

I don't wanna side track this thread TOO much but I feel on my honor I have to point this out.

Berman's reign on Star Trek ended the moment he *HAD* to think for himself. TNG had the steam to carry itself through the final two seasons with or without Berman being there.

DS9 has *A LOT* of controversy behind it. Theres been an ENDLESS debate on weather DS9 is not a complete rip off of Babylon 5 or not. The biggest fact that suggests that it is dates back to a meeting JMS and Roddenberry had earlier on. B5 was originally scripted as a star trek spin off BY JMS. When Roddenberry passed away, it made it look like Berman snatched it and ran with it. I don't think any one, save Berman will ever know the real truth behind this. The debate doesn't even take a thread to pop up in TrekBBS (http://forums.toonzone.net/www.trekbbs.com).

In the Trek universe, one might suggest that the primary reason for its recent decline is mainly due to who got their hands on the shuffle at the end. Berman's management of the franchise is ruined it. Berman wasn't even Gene's pick to succeed him. Berman *GOT* Paramount to believe he was the right person for the job.

[Dead_Ninja_000]

I would call Gundam being more so old than lazy.

[Zeonic Freak]

The thing both Gundam and Star Trek shared was the fact both were bening produced, writen, and directed by a group of worn out hacks.
.

For a second there, i thought you were talking about Tomino and Yatate...

[Lutochris]

The point I was originally trying to make in comparing Trek to Gundam was in response to a comment by Knighthammer that people in the US somehow don't tolerate repetition. I was offering up Star Trek as proof that this was false. Like Gundam, Star Trek is basically the same thing over and over, slightly updated for new generations. No, Trek didn't maintain mainstream popularity like Gundam apparently has in Japan, but the core fanbase was always there, otherwise why would it be going on virtually nonstop since 1979? Then there's the Simpsons, Law & Order, James Bond, etc, that are basically the same thing over and over, yet their franchise power is unstoppable. Trust me, people in the US have no problem with repetition.

PS. Are ZZ and Victory the last UC left to be released? Is Bandai still saying they eventually intend to release everything?

[rubberchicken]

PS. Are ZZ and Victory the last UC left to be released? Is Bandai still saying they eventually intend to release everything?
And Crossbone. ;_;

[Zechs]

Gundam is just old. It always seems to be the same story only with diffrent character.s It's just been done some many times people are getting bored with it.

[HellCat]

I think the discussion has shifted from my original intent.

[Jake7832]

I agree, the Gundam series is indeed old, but you have to look at it this way: They aren't getting anywhere with new anime nowadays.

Plus, Naruto is an old anime. They just put it in america and spruced it up a bit to make it look new...its popular and hyped up now.

[HellCat]

Bringing this back due to some new information I've stumbled on.
Before Ichishiki's recent string of SD series, we got a series called Musha Generation. The plot is quite close to TO and ALIVE, with classic inspired characters piloting SD musha styled versions of familiar designs. So far I've only picked up one of the kits, Musha Blue Gundam which is piloted by Heero. Essentially, the design is just the Blue Destiny with some Wing-like elements slapped on to justify giving it to Heero. It was so close I did some research....Musha Blue is just the SD Blue Destiny, repackaged with some new silver and transparent add ons. Looking at the other 4 kits (a Turn A, Gerbera Gundam, Master and a Gundam Mk IV), it seems all of them boil down to being standard SD kits with some minor musha decoration slapped on. Wow.