Gee...There's Not Much Room For Compromise Here, Huh?

[Karkull]

Can't we just agree to disagree? Sure, Justice League has its flaws, but it's still one of the best damn shows on television today.

Besides, if it's so flawed, why are people dedicating their time to talking about it here? It just means that there's room for improvement. Remember: on BTAS and STAS they only had to characterize one major superhero. On Justice League they have seven. It takes a little while to strike the proper balance.

I have absolute faith in what the creative team is doing, but I'm not above bringing up potential weaknesses for discussion.

Peace on the Justice League board!

[Failure]

Yeah I've noticed this. 2 polar oppsites in opinions, those who think JL is utter crap and should be improved dramatically and those who think JL is pretty good already and will improve.

If people really hated it though, they probably would've stopped watching by now or will do so in the near future. So they (the folks behind JL) must be doing something right to spark all this fan reaction.

[Bud 'n Lou]

I'm one of the people who thinks JL needs to be greatly improved, but I never called it crap. I'm a fan of Timm's previous work. And though I don't like JL very much so far, I continue to watch it BECAUSE I'm a loyal fan. I'm sticking by it and hoping it gets better, but in the meantime, there are huge flaws staring me in the face that I can't ignore. The only thing I can do about it is voice my opinion and hope the creators get the message. For now, and probably til the series ends, I'll continue to watch it. I watch it because I'm a faithful fan. It may not seem like it because I have a lot of negative to say about the show, but I am. That's why I watch, and that's why I post here.

[Bruce Wayne]

I find that in shows, its all in the matter of opinion. Some may not like JL, and some may love it to the extent that if they missed an episode, they're jumping off a bridge without a cord.

[Harvey Dent]

Aside from some dialogue and Superman's inconsistency power-wise, I really, really, really like this show, and incourage all the nay-sayers to wait until the season is over before passing judgement on this show. Rome wasn't built in a day, but when it was completed, it was a sight to behold. I believe the same applies to JL. Give it a chance, please.

[Spider]

I wrote regarding the level of dissection a couple of weeks ago. Specifically, I was impressed by how the quality of Justice League warrants this bimodality. After all, not all television shows would be worthy our collective time, would they? I for one hope to continue to read the disparate and (almost always) passionate views, so long as civility is maintained. :)

[Failure]

Originally posted by Bud 'n Lou
I'm one of the people who thinks JL needs to be greatly improved, but I never called it crap. I'm a fan of Timm's previous work. And though I don't like JL very much so far, I continue to watch it BECAUSE I'm a loyal fan. I'm sticking by it and hoping it gets better, but in the meantime, there are huge flaws staring me in the face that I can't ignore. The only thing I can do about it is voice my opinion and hope the creators get the message. For now, and probably til the series ends, I'll continue to watch it. I watch it because I'm a faithful fan. It may not seem like it because I have a lot of negative to say about the show, but I am. That's why I watch, and that's why I post here.

Sorry, maybe "utter crap" was a bit of an exaggeration on my part. :)

[SimonMoon5]

The problem is that a lot of us who see major faults with the show see so much potential in the show that we want it to be good. Some of us are also optimists, hoping that the show will be better each time, but we end up like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football. Each time, we think, "Maybe Lucy won't pull it away this time."

[Karkull]

Originally posted by SimonMoon5
The problem is that a lot of us who see major faults with the show see so much potential in the show that we want it to be good. Some of us are also optimists, hoping that the show will be better each time, but we end up like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football. Each time, we think, "Maybe Lucy won't pull it away this time."

Wow...you really hit it on the head there, didn't you? Good call.

[kid_flash]

But would a compliment or two hurt? I mean, there are so many people here who ONLY point out the bad things. Well, that's just peachy, but you had to like SOMETHING about it, right? I just don't understand how people can continue to watch something they don't like. Just doesn't make sense. Yeah, that whole "faithful fan" thing. But, y'know.....you're not enjoying it. It was created to be enjoyed. By watching it, aren't you kinda tearing down the purpose?

[Karkull]

Originally posted by kid_flash
But would a compliment or two hurt? I mean, there are so many people here who ONLY point out the bad things. Well, that's just peachy, but you had to like SOMETHING about it, right? I just don't understand how people can continue to watch something they don't like. Just doesn't make sense. Yeah, that whole "faithful fan" thing. But, y'know.....you're not enjoying it. It was created to be enjoyed. By watching it, aren't you kinda tearing down the purpose?

What, you don't read my other posts? I like the show. Read Maxie Zeus' thread An Open Letter About JL Criticism about how both kinds of posts being acceptable.

[Bud 'n Lou]

By now, I think this debate is getting pretty tired. Both sides keep making the same points over and over again. I guess this is because both sides are also ignoring the other side's counterpoints to their own arguements, even if they make some sense. I can't tell you how many times so far I've seen this senario:

JL defender: "Why do you watch the show if you don't like it?"

JL critic: "Because I'm a fan of past series, and I'm sticking with it in hopes that I will see it improve over time."

To which the rebuttal is to ask the same question again.

Or this one:

JL critic: "I don't understand why so many of the defenders refuse to see the flaws in the show."

JL defender: "I never said there were no flaws, but I still see a lot of good in the show too, and I choose to concentrate on that."

And again, the response is to bring up the same point.

You don't have to agree with what someone says or does, just because you wouldn't say or do it, but you can at least accept it as a different point of view. Many people don't appear to be willing to listen objectively to the other side. It seems like a lot of people are just sticking their fingers in their ears while others explain their side, rather than listen, and possibly reach some kind of understanding.

I feel a little corny saying all that, but I think it had to be said.

[Failure]

I've gotta agree with you Bud, at this point, the debates are going in circles. Hopefully a new ep will inject some life into it.

[neilf]

Everyone here has made a valid point. We could all find a happy medium. As i have been quick to point out flaws - I have also pointed out positives about the show as well. I don't dissect the show line by line but merely point things out in broad strokes such as - needs better dialogue and voice acting. I also think Superman is out of character. That probably bugs me because he is our (my son included) favorite character. I should point out that I think the character designs are great. The action sequences are cool, and the plots have been solid. I hope that we see improvements for the second season, which is probable since all of Timm's past shows improved as they got into their second and third seasons respectively. We'll just have to wait and see. Peace! Toonzone rules! :D

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

Originally posted by Karkull
Can't we just agree to disagree? Sure, Justice League has its flaws, but it's still one of the best damn shows on television today.

Besides, if it's so flawed, why are people dedicating their time to talking about it here? It just means that there's room for improvement. Remember: on BTAS and STAS they only had to characterize one major superhero. On Justice League they have seven. It takes a little while to strike the proper balance.

I have absolute faith in what the creative team is doing, but I'm not above bringing up potential weaknesses for discussion.

Peace on the Justice League board!

Amen, Brother!!

[Crimson]

Originally posted by neilf
I also think Superman is out of character. That probably bugs me because he is our (my son included) favorite character. I should point out that I think the character designs are great.

How so? I'm not being argumentative, I'm just curious what you think is out of character for Superman. I know there has been some complaints about him being apparently powered-down, but I haven't noticed anything out of character for him.

[Maxie Zeus]

Bud n Lou hits it just right. I'm only going to say one more thing, and then I'm going to drop this.

Look, much has been made about the need and desire for intelligent and insightful commentary (whether negative or positive). Okay, why be coy? I've made much about this. And such is the force of my personal charisma (yeah, right!) that lots of other people have gone traipsing down merrily behind me singing the same tune.

But it's possible to make too much of the ideal.

Mea culpa time, folks. I for one usually fail to live up to this high standard. And while that's nothing to be proud of, it's not the greatest shame in the world, either.

As some of you may realize (it's in my signature, fergawdsake) I maintain an episode guide (http://www.scrye.com/~jallman/anbat/anbatndx.html) devoted to the BTAS, TNBA and BB series. I try to be insightful in my reviews/critiques. But quite often I'm not.

Here, for example, is the sum of my commentary on "Beware the Creeper (http://www.scrye.com/~jallman/anbat/tnba/sets/tnbaac.html#beware)":


Loosey-goosey episode that has infectious fun with the series' characters and conventions.

And here's all I could muster up for "The Forgotten (http://www.scrye.com/~jallman/anbat/btas/sets/btasfh.html#forgotten)":


Least said, soonest forgotten.

Not much there, eh? "Beware the Creeper" has its share of detractors, and I can hear them now: "But you don't say anything about why it's good or why you like it. Basically you just say that you thought it was cool." And the latter comment isn't even a critique. It's a mugging.

How do I justify or excuse this sorry state of affairs? I can't, but I can explain it. For the plain fact is that many episodes simply rout me from the field. Faced with an episode like "The Eggbaby (http://www.scrye.com/~jallman/anbat/bb/ind/eggbaby.html)" or "Prophecy of Doom (http://www.scrye.com/~jallman/anbat/btas/sets/btaspr.html#prophecy)" I can't say much more than "Cool!" or "Yuck!" Oh, I try to be entertaining about it -- I'll admit to taking malicious pleasure in trashing "Plague (http://www.scrye.com/~jallman/anbat/bb/sets/bbpr.html#plague)", for instance -- but that can't disguise the intellectual vacuity of the result.

Now, if after four years of effort with this site I haven't managed to replace comments like the above with something more substantive, how can I legitimately scold someone who sits down and in fifteen minutes tries to compose his thoughts (either positive or negative) on "Secret Origins" or "Paradise Lost"? I'll preach the ideal -- that we should do our best to be clever and analytical -- but I try not to throw crockery at anyone who does no better than the low standard I too often set.

That, parenthetically, is one of the reasons that I (personally) am not keen on seeing the names of the creative staff mentioned in connection with the criticisms. Bruce Timm and his collaborators may be possessed of infinite talent, but patience, ingenuity, time and money all have a way of running out on even the greatest. They have done great work and, yes, they often fail to achieve the same high standard. But how often have you been at your best? (And how good and kind it is of others to dwell, at length, on your failure to always be at your best.)

This is not to justify or excuse critical lassitude -- the mindless "that ROCKED!!" or the nasty "that SUCKED!!" -- but only the reminder that most people are often flabby, and that everyone is sometimes flabby. And that a little, ah, generosity of spirit toward each other is not out of place.

I'll make you a bargain: Only try to be fair and generous with each other, and I will try to be fair and generous with you when you fail.

:)

[Failure]

Hey Maxie, do you have any plans to put up JL episode ratings on your page like you did with BTAS & BB?

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Failure
Hey Maxie, do you have any plans to put up JL episode ratings on your page like you did with BTAS & BB?

Not for awhile. If I do, it would be on a new page paired with STAS. For that to happen I have to get all the STAS eps on tape (some of them I still have never seen).

[Failure]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus


Not for awhile. If I do, it would be on a new page paired with STAS. For that to happen I have to get all the STAS eps on tape (some of them I still have never seen).

Too bad, they make for some great reading. Well, at least the one's with reading to do. :D

[Gyro]

I know there has been some complaints about him being apparently powered-down I think superman needs to be powered-down, I don't like heros that are as powerful as him...

[jm5150bc]

Originally posted by Karkull
Can't we just agree to disagree? Sure, Justice League has its flaws, but it's still one of the best damn shows on television today.

Besides, if it's so flawed, why are people dedicating their time to talking about it here? It just means that there's room for improvement. Remember: on BTAS and STAS they only had to characterize one major superhero. On Justice League they have seven. It takes a little while to strike the proper balance.

I have absolute faith in what the creative team is doing, but I'm not above bringing up potential weaknesses for discussion.

Peace on the Justice League board!

Here, Here !! A Kindred Soul !!

I agree absolutely, as I have said in many of my other posts.
Less Nay-saying, More THANK YOUs...

That being said- much of the criticism has been well-meaning,
although some has been downright nasty and unnecessary.
None of us who are "Pro-JL" are saying that any of those who are.. um... "Not-So-Pro-JL" (I don't think that any of us are 'Anti-JL", right ?) should blindly accept the show just because it IS JL. But would it be too much to ocassionally hear a "Thanks" to Timm & Co., despite the show's flaws ?? These guys have a pretty impressive track record, after all, and all of the other series' that they have done have had their... um... MISCUES as well, even the probably-never-to-be-outdone B:TAS ("Prophecy of Doom", anyone ??!). But they seem to hit them out of the park WAY more often than not, and JL seems to be improving with every episode that airs.

And one more thing that I have to get off my chest- Dini was NOT the key to the other series' success, as much as I love his writing... (and I've met him and talked to him). His input on JL would be great, no question, but he wrote some of the "miscues" that I mentioned before, as well. But I've read some posts that say Timm is NOTHING wihout Dini, and thought that was a bit unfair. All of these guys, in various collaberations, made these shows what they were, and deserve our THANKS and SUPPORT.

Thanks, fellow Toonzoners, for letting me air that out !!!

[neilf]

Originally posted by Crimson


How so? I'm not being argumentative, I'm just curious what you think is out of character for Superman. I know there has been some complaints about him being apparently powered-down, but I haven't noticed anything out of character for him.

Hi Crimson. I guess I'm comparing Superman's characterization in JL to STAS. In past posts I've stated that Tim Daly exuded an air of confidence that is not coming across from George Newburn. Daly's Superman had more of a commanding presence due to Daly's fine acting. The Superman we see here seems less assertive and a bit meek at times. Part of that comes across in the way they have made him a bit of a punching bag (with a glass jaw). It's my humble opinion that Daly's version of Superman would fit this supposedly more mature Superman in JL and that the current version would have fit better in the early years.

[Crimson]

Originally posted by Gyro
I think superman needs to be powered-down, I don't like heros that are as powerful as him...

I couldn't agree more. I don't know why DC has a need to make their characters powerful to a god-like level ... a Superman who can move planets, a Wonder Woman who can lift mountain ranges, a Green Lantern who is, apparently, now all-powerful (at least, so I've gathered from the boards), a Batman who is virtually infallable ... this doesn't make the characters more interesting, it makes them less so.

Modern comic book writers seem to have only two modes of development: tear the character down, or power them up.

The Superman of TAS was the first time I've ever really enjoyed the character. I liked seeing him strong, but still capable of being staggered by someone like Livewire ... otherwise, where's the excitment or challenge?