Justice League Unlimited "Epilogue" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Bird Boy]

The season finale for Justice League Unlimited has arrived!


http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/talkback.jpg (http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/)

Episode #26 - Epilogue
Original Airdate - July 23rd, 2005 - Second Season Finale

50 years in the future, the history of the Justice League is the key to Batman’s darkest secret –and his final destiny.

Note: Due to a forum error, the original talkback for "Epilogue" was erased. Our apologies for the inconvenience.

[Caswin]

Just watched it again. Still awesome.

In retrospect, though, to someone who doesn't happen to be the Internet show-researching type... figuring out the nature of the black-and-white sequences just doesn't seem too likely.

How'd this one manage to not get a commentary?

[Wonderwall]

Just watched it again. Still awesome.

In retrospect, though, to someone who doesn't happen to be the Internet show-researching type... figuring out the nature of the black-and-white sequences just doesn't seem too likely.

How'd this one manage to not get a commentary?

Because when JLU season 1 features were being done WB decided to add the now unofficial 2nd season, but there wasn't time to do anymore commentaries, which then lead to the CADMUS feature on the 2nd season. Though with all the talk that this one episode generated, I wonder if a commentary would've been necessary. Woulda been nice still tho:p

[Caswin]

Though with all the talk that this one episode generated, I wonder if a commentary would've been necessary.For the people who don't frequent World's Finest and such? (That is to say, easily most of the people who bought this DVD) Yeah, I'd say so.

[theRedDeath]

Man, I thought this was such a terrible episode. I'm so glad JLU got picked up for another season so this wouldn't really be the "final" episode.

I hate the Terry as Bruce's son/clone angle, I think it totally belittle's Terry's character. And for a JUSTICE LEAGUE episode, it was practically ALL about BATMAN.

Now, and I realize i'm in the minority here, but I don't really care for Batman anyway. I liked JLU for other characters and for the team dynamic. If Batman was never in a single episode I would have liked the show just as much, maybe even more. And here we have the JUSTICE LEAGUE finale and it's "Batman" this and "Batman" that. bleh.

The show is called Justice League Unlimited. Is it too much to ask for the finale to feature...oh I dunno...THE JUSTICE LEAGUE!?

I realise they were trying to do a bookend type sendoff of the entire DCAU, which starts and ends with B:TAS to Batman Beyond, but I just think the finale to the Justice League show was an inappropriate forum to do so.

---

[Caswin]

And for a JUSTICE LEAGUE episode, it was practically ALL about BATMAN... The show is called Justice League Unlimited. Is it too much to ask for the finale to feature...oh I dunno...THE JUSTICE LEAGUE!?Try "Divided We Fall". I get the impression that that was meant as an end to Justice League, with "Epilogue" piggybacking on JLU as the finale to everything.

[Michael24]

Yeah, "Divided We Fall" is the Justice League finale. "Epilogue" is like an additional 'bonus episode.'

Personally, I was bored by "Epilogue," but that's only because I was never a fan of Batman Beyond in general. It's my least-favorite DCAU show, so naturally I didn't care for "Epilogue." But even then, the idea of Terry turning out to be Bruce's son (one way or the other) seemed lame beyond belief, from the way it was done to just the very idea of it. Though it was nice to see the Phantasm again, as well as the Grey Ghost reference.

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

'Epilogue' is one of my all time favorites, and I get so sick about people saying the episode made Terry into Bruce's clone. Yeah, so every person in existence is a clone of their father right?

Anyway, I thought it was great, and it's actually getting me interested in 'Batman Beyond', which I used to despise as a concept. The episode itself featured some great animation, rich dialogue, and perhaps my all time favorite Batman scene, the Ace swing-set moment. I, in no way, think Terry's identity as Bruce's father changes his strength as a character; I mean, the whole point of the episode was that no matter how Terry came into existence, his fate is, and always has been, his own. Yeah, so anyway, 5/5 for me.

[HaagenDas]

One thing I loved about this episode was right at the end...how Amanda Waller of all people helped a man, Terry McGinnis, feel that he was significant and had something to contribute. That this man can step out of the shadows of Bruce Wayne, even with being his son, something that Tim Drake couldnt do and Dick Grayson even had a lot of trouble doing. For me the last scene is always chilling and a great window to life...that people grow old, they pass away and leave us, but life does go on and the chapters turn in the book of human civilization. The legacy of Batman keeps on going...well after Bruce Wayne gives up the cape and cowl.

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

That this man can step out of the shadows of Bruce Wayne, even with being his son, something that Tim Drake couldnt do and Dick Grayson even had a lot of trouble doing.
Whoa, great mention there. It makes you think of Terry as a total contrast with Bruce's former sidekicks. Even though they are not his children, they have trouble being their own person. Terry is his child, and yet he has the strength that they lacked. Not only is this neat to think about, but it gives more meaning to why the 'Terry as Bruce's' son twist is actually good.

[EazyV]

Great episode.

[Shadowmask]

Waller's motivations (and maybe redemption?) in this episode were interesting, but the whole "Terry is Bruce's son" bit feels too much like fan fiction for my tastes. And the scene where Terry is talking to Waller is painfully masturbatory. Waller's dialogue is pretentious, but it's as if Terry thinks he's Hamlet. It's not one of the worst DCAU episodes, like "Love is a Croc" or "Terry's Friend Dates a Robot," but it's still pretty bad. 2/5

[EazyV]

Waller's motivations (and maybe redemption?) in this episode were interesting, but the whole "Terry is Bruce's son" bit feels too much like fan fiction for my tastes. And the scene where Terry is talking to Waller is painfully masturbatory. Waller's dialogue is pretentious, but it's as if Terry thinks he's Hamlet. It's not one of the worst DCAU episodes, like "Love is a Croc" or "Terry's Friend Dates a Robot," but it's still pretty bad. 2/5

Dude, the title alone for "Terry's Friend Dates a Robot" makes it a bonifide classic.

[dc_gothamite]

great episode IMO that capped off what Timm & Co. started all the way back in 1992...

"Divided We Fall"/"Destroyer" will always be the definitive finales of JLU in my book... but as Michael24 said, "Epilogue" was more like a bonus.

Given the whole point of the story, i didn't mind that the JL itself took a backseat to the story. At least we got good final looks at Star, Dr. Light, and Red Tornado... frankly, i found it to be a nice change of pace. For a show based on so-called 'kiddie-books,' it was dialogue-heavy, and didn't insult the viewers' intelligence... i guess beauty's in the eyes of the beholder, cuz i thought it was great.

As for the whole "Terry being Bruce's son" thing... i'll admit, it caught me off guard at first. I kinda thought they ruined Terry's character, but I gradually came to accept and even adore the idea.

To me, the 'bombshell revelation' was basically a symbol for the curse of Batman. One of the most interesting aspects of "Batman Beyond" as a series was the fact that it really provided a somewhat grim fate for Bruce Wayne. When u go back and watch "Mystery of the Batwoman" or see Batman flirt with Wonder Woman, you can't help but feel bad knowing that Bruce will ultimately end up a lonely and bitter old man. This is where his crusade has taken him. For all the good he had done, he left nothing for himself emotionally and became a detached figure. The Batman name would become synonymous with the brooding, loner archetype.

Terry always wanted to prove himself as his own man, out of the old man's shadow... however, by being his 'son,' he felt that this was it... as much as he wanted to, he could never escape the 'genes' or the 'curse'... balancing the life of a man and a BATman has been too difficult. If this is what i'm destined to do, I'll do it... but I won't be happy about it... you screwed me over...

the thing I love about this is that ultimately, it doesn't even matter. Death and chance created the first Batman, and it did so again with this one. At the end of the day, Warren McGinnis raised Terry. Derek Powers had the elder McGinnis murdered WITHOUT any Cadmus machinations. And most importantly, Terry is not Bruce Wayne. He says f*** it, I'm gonna marry Dana, and still keep the Batman alive. The 'bombshell' just represented the curse of Batman, and how even that can be overcome.

[Alex Weitzman]

?

Um, where'd the extremely huge talkback go?

[BCVM22]

Note: Due to a forum error, the entire talkback for "Epilogue" was erased. Our apologies for the inconvenience.


?

Um, where'd the extremely huge talkback go?

Yup.

Do the "View Post" and "Multi-Quote" buttons come up broken for anyone else?

[Alex Weitzman]

Yup.

Ouch. (Both the inconvenience and my inability to read new edits on old posts.)

I really hope this can be salvaged and restored.

[Aldrius]

The only thing that'd make this episode better for me is if Amanda and Andrea had an actual conversation instead of Waller's narration.

CCH and Dana are both A-list actors and their voices REALLY suit each other. (CCH being very monotone and powerful, Dana being more emotional and softer.) Plus it'd be neat seeing how crazy Beaumont's gotten over the years.

[The Old Maid]

Noticed we lost the poll too.

Can we merge this with the the Canadians saw it first (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=143915&page=3&highlight=epilogue+spoilers) talkback thread? That one is just as long, some 20 pages. The only reason it was not made the Official Thread is because an official thread was coming when the episode aired in the States.

[Spider-Man]

I think th is episode gets alot of unnecessary flack for the big revelation that Bruce Wayne is technically Terry's father. Some felt it was forced on but I didn't see it as such especially since the creative team said they were working ont his idea for a second possilble DTV that did not happen. I think this was great timing for the revelation because the Cadmus arc really led into it and provided the perfect backdrop for it. I still think this is a great episode with simply beautiful animation and a compelling story.

[A.J]

OMG! We lost the complete talkback of epilogue! :eek:

[Old Batfart]

What did you think of Terry's Epilogue character design? I didn't really like it. To me, it seemed too different from the way he looked as a teenager, and too much like they were trying to emphasize his biological connection to Bruce by making their physical appearances similar.

I really liked the lean look Terry had in BB, and I think they could worked from there rather than have Bruce feeding Terry growth hormones (my personal theory). And those sideburns... :ack:

Terry went from this:
http://aycu21.webshots.com/image/14700/2003285260823902750_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003285260823902750)

To this:
http://aycu12.webshots.com/image/16451/2003283192791849921_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003283192791849921)

Here's what I'm guessing was an early Terry design by Bruce Timm. I think (with some minor touch-ups) it would've made a much better early-30s Terry than the design that was chosen. It just seems like a much more natural progression.
http://aycu12.webshots.com/image/16451/2003220224352495264_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003220224352495264)

What do you think?

[BCVM22]

I think it looked perfectly fine for a guy we hadn't seen since he was in high school. He filled out a bit more - fighting superstitious and cowardly criminals every day from age 16 onward'll do that to you - and grew his hair longer. The pencil design at the bottom looks too thin and too unkempt compared to Terry's series design, neither of which would be logical processions from his high school-age design.

[Old Batfart]

Sure, we haven't seen him since he was 17, but that doesn't mean he couldn't remain on the lighter side. Dick spent his childhood fighting criminals with Bruce, but even in his 20s he isn't a lot bigger than Terry at 16. Tim, who left crime-fighting early, IS heavy-set. I don't think the Batman gig alone would require Terry to change so drastically. There's lots of superheroes that remain lean but strong. He could fill out a bit, but I think they went a bit overboard on the muscle-bound look.

The unkempt hair is mostly what I meant by a few touch-ups (I should've clarified that). I don't think it's too thin - it's thicker-set and older-looking than Terry was as a teen, but still looks like the same guy. The eyes and jawline have matured, the neck is thicker. I think it would've worked.

The Epilogue design just looks... odd at times. Sometimes it seems okay, other times in the episode it's kinda... off. I'm not sure how to describe it, but it just doesn't always feel like it's the same guy. Reminds me of Elvis on steroids. :D

[Alph]

Well, I agree that he shouldn't have been so buff. Especially with a suit that augmented his abilities like that. But I don't actually have a problem seeing him as the same person even with the buff design. But that's mainly cuz the voice is the same (I swear, the voice is THE most important thing when identifying with a character.)

[The Guitar Slayer]

Well, think of who Mommy and Daddy are. Dick didn't get heavy because his parents were acrobats and had been for many years -- they're supposed to be less bulky and more aerodynamic. Barbara, even though we didn't see her mommy, remained thin like her dad did as she got older. Tim and his father seemed to be quite poor -- not eating enough? Ergo, Tim may have been more of a porker as a kid if he hadn't been in such bad conditions. He may not have been thin if he had been eating right.

Now, looking at Terry. Bruce isn't a tiny guy in BTAS, TNBA or JLU. Looking at his appearance in the Zantana and martial arts flashbacks from BTAS, he wasn't always this big either, and Terry was even younger than that. Terry grew into his biological father's frame. Mary, his mother, is not like Babs or the other typical designs of JLU women -- she has a curvier figure and has more weight to her than the stick-y appearances of Dana, Barbara, and the others in Timmverse. That says that Terry is going to gain weight from what he was as a teen -- he's going to be bulkier when he grows up. So rather be a bit tubby in the costume, Bruce likely put him on an exercise regimen; "Don't depend on technology." Remember those times the suit started to short out? They both probably do, so once Terry had time (post high school graduation), he was probably put through a Bruce-like exercise program to make him less dependent on the suit for strength.

This is a better comparison. (http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/episodes/epilogue/02.jpg) Closer to the original expression rather than shocked -- that affects a person's face shape.

Jaw did get a lot harder -- that's a structural difference more than an actual bulk/weight thing. That's the one thing I would fault this design on. He grew sideburns, making the face more square looking (and more Bruce-like). Same nose, slightly thicker lips, but those are affected by age too. Except for the jaw, I'd say that's a very good Terry aging. And for all we know, Terry broke his jaw in the interim; Bruce likely did back in the day, and if they heal and form scar tissue the same way -- there you go.

I looked at some screencaps from Zantana and Night of the Ninja -- I think they drew some influence from there as to older-but-still-young Terry's look.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

I think Terry looks good as an older guy. They could have made him to be closer looking to his 17 year old model, or his brother, but that's unrealistic.
Those sideburns look good on him. They made him look like younger Bruce with slightly different facial features! :yawn:

[Alph]

Well, think of who Mommy and Daddy are.

That was the TC's point. Since they retconned who Terry's old man is, they also retconned what adult Terry would look like. Sans retcon, he would have looked way less bulky.

At least, I think that's what the TC was saying.

Anyway, I still think Epilogue was a more or less a waste, since it just focused more on Batman when Superman of the future and every other core Leaguer of the future could have better used the closure.

Seriously, why not an episode revealing that Superman eventually actually had a son? That would have been way more satifsfying, in my opinion (after watching "For the Man Who Has Everything") and wouldn't need any retcons.

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

Anyway, I still think Epilogue was a more or less a waste, since it just focused more on Batman when Superman of the future and every other core Leaguer of the future could have better used the closure.

Seriously, why not an episode revealing that Superman eventually actually had a son? That would have been way more satifsfying, in my opinion (after watching "For the Man Who Has Everything") and wouldn't need any retcons.
Sure, other characters had a lot more depth to be had, but as an episode intended to be the bookend to the DCAU, Batman was the obvious choice, not because he was undeveloped, but because he was the beginning and it is only natural he should be the end. And anyway, as much problems you have with Bruce Wayne overload, the episode was more of a Terry McGuiness episode, who, for the record, did appear less than Superman over the course of the DCAU.

Anyway, I don't mind the older design at all. It doesn't look very different at all, and it's very believable that that would be his natural progression.

[Stu]

I think it's great. It's practically John Romita Sr's version of Peter Parker done in animation. Given that there's a direct nod to his work from Amazing Spider-Man #50, I wonder if this was intentional or not...

But yeah, I really like the design.

[ITDEFX]

I always hated Terry's lips.

[The Guitar Slayer]

That was the TC's point. Since they retconned who Terry's old man is, they also retconned what adult Terry would look like. Sans retcon, he would have looked way less bulky.

They didn't retcon Mary's motherhood at all, and she is curvier than the stick-like Barb and Kara and Co. As for Warren, Terry never bore a resemblance to him. At all. If you look at screenshots from Rebirth (here (http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/beyond/bios/warrenmcg/09.jpg) and here (http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/beyond/bios/warrenmcg/10.jpg)), Terry has an athlete's figure already with defined shoulders, hips, and waist, while Warren is very much a straight, narrow guy with sloping shoulders and a receding hairline at middle age -- and even in Epilogue, he still has that, even though he's 17+ years younger.



Anyway, I still think Epilogue was a more or less a waste, since it just focused more on Batman when Superman of the future and every other core Leaguer of the future could have better used the closure.

Not really. Superman is still Superman. Wonderwoman would still be Wonderwoman. The Lanterns are still the Lanterns in the ever-changing rotation. Batman the Animated Series started this DCAU, and we followed Bruce Wayne down his dark path, from young man to bitter man in his middle years to broken man as he neared the path's end. He's not dead yet, and he has fight in him...but he can never take down Supes or anyone anymore. Bruce Wayne aged. He got old. His body wore out, but the rest of him is still sharp. He's stuck in this dying shell, and because of the way he allowed his Mission to rule his life, he would be alone in that big old house. Barbara is angry at him, Dick doesn't speak to him, Tim didn't speak to him for many years. Jim Gordon is dead, Alfred is dead, Leslie is dead. Selina gave up on him. Wonderwoman never aged. Talia is still as devoted to Daddy as ever. Andrea walked out of his life because she knew they could never be together due to philosophies. He would die alone in his house. Then Terry comes along, and Barbara warns him of Bruce's Mission and the costs. Eventually, he would be driven away too -- it was just how Bruce was.

But Epilogue shows that he does have family -- he could not drive Terry away, no matter how hard he tried and how close he got. Terry is his son, biology or not. It's redemption for a character that was steadily approaching rock bottom.


Seriously, why not an episode revealing that Superman eventually actually had a son?

Man of Steel, Woman of Tissue argument.


That would have been way more satifsfying, in my opinion (after watching "For the Man Who Has Everything") and wouldn't need any retcons.

I don't know if that would be so. If he had a son with Lois, she'd be dead by now, in all likelihood. Bruce is like a cockroach -- he won't die, no matter what. Lois, not so much. And also, don't forget that Supes didn't age like Bruce did, like humans did. He will outlive all of his friends and family. Even his son. Parents shouldn't bury children -- it's not the natural order of things. However, Superman would have to; his hybrid son would probably be "afflicted" with a shorter lifespan if not one more similar to Lois'. Superman, if he had a son, would have a sadder Epilogue than Bruce. Bruce finds a family in it, but Clark would just keep losing and losing his family. It's optimism versus a cursed/charmed life.

[Simpler Simon]

I'm not a fan of the hair, as it gives Terry a 70's greaser look, but overall the design was appropriate for someone we haven't seen in a few years.

I mean I look at photos of myself from the last year of high school and the last year of college, and there's a big change - pretty much like the comparison here. Maybe even the hair. :sweat:

[EazyV]

Well, I agree that he shouldn't have been so buff. Especially with a suit that augmented his abilities like that. But I don't actually have a problem seeing him as the same person even with the buff design. But that's mainly cuz the voice is the same (I swear, the voice is THE most important thing when identifying with a character.)

Yup yup, Eric Mathews IS the Batman of the future :D

[Alph]

I don't know if that would be so. If he had a son with Lois, she'd be dead by now, in all likelihood. Bruce is like a cockroach -- he won't die, no matter what. Lois, not so much. And also, don't forget that Supes didn't age like Bruce did, like humans did. He will outlive all of his friends and family. Even his son. Parents shouldn't bury children -- it's not the natural order of things. However, Superman would have to; his hybrid son would probably be "afflicted" with a shorter lifespan if not one more similar to Lois'. Superman, if he had a son, would have a sadder Epilogue than Bruce. Bruce finds a family in it, but Clark would just keep losing and losing his family. It's optimism versus a cursed/charmed life.
That's another thing that confused me. If 65 is the new thirty due to modern medicine, Superman isn't all that special in terms of aging. Batman is the greater oddity, since apparently he doesn't take enough meds to look half his age like Static does.

[FireWarrior]

I actually didn't have a problem with it at all. I mean c'mon the last time we saw Terry in BB he was 17. In Epilogue he was 32, that's 15 years. That's a lot of time to grow and change. Plus as Guitar Slayer stated, Terry's biological genes pretty much determined how his body type was, a pretty built looking guy.

[Bic]

Some good points about the genetics explaining Terry's body type, but it seems that everyone has forgot a single important factor in this argument. Terry has a significant other. As anyone who is my age or around there (um maybe just me then) can attest to, if your significant other is a halfway decent cook, weight gain is guarantied. Fortunately, Terry's night job keeps him in good shape through it all. :p


Man of Steel, Woman of Tissue argument.Wow, I remember hearing that argument for the first time back in the late 70's (or was that real early 80's) - The paper by Larry Niven originally came out in 1971. That caused a lot of speculation at my school back then.

[A.J]

Didnt like the lips but loved the rest. Freaking awesome!

[N0-1_H3r3]

That's another thing that confused me. If 65 is the new thirty due to modern medicine, Superman isn't all that special in terms of aging. Batman is the greater oddity, since apparently he doesn't take enough meds to look half his age like Static does.
Bear in mind that Bruce is a hell of a lot older than Static. Bruce was [generic superhero age between 20 and 40] when Static was still in High School. He's a good two decades older than Static, at the very least.

Further, Static's career isn't as strenuous as Bruce's. Static has powers to rely on... Bruce has never had that luxury, and instead has pushed his body further and harder than almost anyone else on the planet. Even in his 80s, he's more than a match for a couple of street thugs, but his body has suffered from the continual strain of training and fighting and healing from debilitating injuries (by the time he retires, how many times do you think he's been shot? Or landed heavily after being thrown across a room by a strong villain or explosion? Or suffered any other injuries that should have put him in hospital, but he's too stubborn and secretive to go?). Modern medicine can only do so much, and has a long way to catch up with the kind of life Bruce lived in his younger days... 65 may be the new 30, but Bruce passed 65 several decades ago...

[SuperBat]

I don't know if that would be so. If he had a son with Lois, she'd be dead by now, in all likelihood. Bruce is like a cockroach -- he won't die, no matter what. Lois, not so much. And also, don't forget that Supes didn't age like Bruce did, like humans did. He will outlive all of his friends and family. Even his son. Parents shouldn't bury children -- it's not the natural order of things. However, Superman would have to; his hybrid son would probably be "afflicted" with a shorter lifespan if not one more similar to Lois'. Superman, if he had a son, would have a sadder Epilogue than Bruce. Bruce finds a family in it, but Clark would just keep losing and losing his family. It's optimism versus a cursed/charmed life.
I've hit on this before, but I'll chime in again.

First of all, if Superman had a son, he'd be Terry's age, so it wouldn't be "sadder" for another fifty or sixty years. Second, I hate (and disagree with) the theory that Superman is some kind of immortal who outlives everyone. I agree that he'll live longer than most, but to say that he would outlive his son seems completely wrong to me.

I'll start with what I've said before. Superman is given superpowers by our yellow sun. Super powers. Not super life. He's immune to the things that afflict human beings, but even the healthiest human dies at some point in old age. We see in "The Call" that Superman does age. In 50 years time, he's aged considerably, though gracefully. Bruce looked older than BB's Superman at the beginning of "Rebirth," just thirty years in the future, so it's clear that Superman ages much slower. But he still aged. In the forty years or so that he's lived on Earth in DCAU time, he's aged no differently than anyone else. We see that time does age him, as it would a perfect human. So I can't be convinced that he won't die of old age eventually. It might take him a lot longer, but I say it will happen.

Back to the topic at hand. You went as far as to say that his hybrid son would be "afflicted" with a shorter lifespan. Well, I'd say that Lois' hybrid son would be "blessed" with a longer lifespan. At the rate he's going in "Epilogue," Bruce (the pinnacle of human fitness) could live to be somewhere between 110 and 120. I'd say the average lifespan, then, could be between 90 and 100, being as they're sixty-five years ahead of our time. So if we assume that Superman lives "longer," I'd say it'd take him to 150, MAXIMUM. So if Superman has a son who lives somewhere between himself and Bruce, that would kill him off around 135-ish. Well, we know that Superman is at (the very) least forty years older than his son. So when Superman hits 150, his son would be 110 at the most. So looking at this from my point of view, he wouldn't outlive his son anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I'm just making this up as I go, because I don't think either of them would live anywhere near that long anyway...

[danreyes1]

My only problem: Those lips! Ugh!

[DisneyBoy]

Heya Old Maid, thanks for the link to the Canadian talkback thread. That sure was one heck of a night...

[Project:Cadmus]

Personally I loved the episode, it offered another visit into Batman Beyond, which has always been one of my personal favorite shows, and I did really like seeing what became of the characters post. series.

Though despite it being an interesting idea, I didn't see the need for Terry has Bruce's DNA thing, science its entire point seemed to be to prove that Terry is his own Batman, something that has been brought up and proven in the show before.

Still liked all the emotions, particularly Terry's anger. And I suppose Project: Batman Beyond serves as a good aftermath to the Cadmus Arc, showing Wallers new trust in Superheroes, enough to make sure there would always be a batman.

And, yeah the black and white parts were confusing, didn't even know they were supposed to be Terry's imagination until I read it here.

[BrendaBat]

I really REALLY hated this episode! Not only does Terry being Bruce's biological son cheapen his character (and Batman Beyond as a whole), but the way it happens is just stupid.

Waller was such a cool character in JLU. But in Epilogue, she goes insane and becomes so obsessed with Batman that she begins stalking Mary and Warren McGuiness because they're similar to Bruce's parents (I don't see how, but whatever :shrug:). Then she infuses Warren with Bruce's DNA (again, don't see how that could work. But its the future, so I'll go with it...). And she conspires to MURDER Mary and Warren when Terry is seven years old in the hope that maybe he'll follow in Bruce's footsteps and let his grief turn him into a maladjusted, angsty vigilante.

And, even after Terry's parents survive Wallers Bat-fangirl murder plot, Terry is still somehow drawn to Bruce's doorstep. Why? Did his Bat-genes lead him there!?

This plot twist also hurts Dick and Tim's characters in a way by implying that Terry was more "worthy" of carrying on Bruce's legacy then they were because he's Bruce's "real" son.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Aww, poor original "Epilogue" thread.

I just re-watched the episode, and I wondered why those heroes were chosen to be the Justice League in Waller's flashback. Batman, obviously, because the story is about him, and Dr. Light most likely because Lauren Tom was already voicing Dana and GL. That leaves us with Shayera, Stargirl, and Red Tornado.

Shayera could represent the gray area that comes with protecting a planet. She was ready to kill Ace, an innocent, because she knew the consequences. Her philosophy is closer to Waller's, which sets up the contrast to how Batman handles the situation.

Stargirl is both the youngest member of the League and a legacy character. She represents the past and the future. Like Terry, she has a father figure in the superhero business.

Red Tornado is a robot, programmed to follow someone else's commands. Although we don't know his exact story on JLU, he was able to fight his program and make his own decisions. Terry was worried that his Wayne genetics were a kind of programming that determined what choices he would make, but in the end, he too was able to override them to become his own person.


And, even after Terry's parents survive Wallers Bat-fangirl murder plot, Terry is still somehow drawn to Bruce's doorstep. Why? Did his Bat-genes lead him there!?

No, but clearly that was a problem Terry had to wrestle with. Was his life pre-determined from the moment Warren was altered or does he have some say in it? As for Waller, she's got a lot to consider when it comes to national security, we've seen her plan and execute some extreme stuff before. The worst decision of her career (teaming with Lex Luthor) was actually behind her at that point.

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

And, even after Terry's parents survive Wallers Bat-fangirl murder plot, Terry is still somehow drawn to Bruce's doorstep. Why? Did his Bat-genes lead him there!?
I take it you missed 'Rebirth'. He was running from thugs and naturally fled to a remote and nearby area. It's ridiculous to take the fact that he's Bruce's son and act like his genes are the reason for everything.


This plot twist also hurts Dick and Tim's characters in a way by implying that Terry was more "worthy" of carrying on Bruce's legacy then they were because he's Bruce's "real" son.
But were Tim and Dick ever meant to carry on Bruce's legacy? Not that I know of.

[BrendaBat]

I take it you missed 'Rebirth'. He was running from thugs and naturally fled to a remote and nearby area. It's ridiculous to take the fact that he's Bruce's son and act like his genes are the reason for everything.
I know Terry ended up on Bruce's doorstep because he was chased by thugs. I was being sarcastic. Maybe I should have used smileys to drive the point home. :p :anime: :D :sweat:
And I didn't make the argument that his genes are the reason for everything. The show did. :p

Anyhoo, the basic point of my post was that the story in Epilogue required WAY too much suspension of disbelief. I know, Waller hatched some insane plans in the course of JLU. But the "screw with McGuiness DNA to create a biological son for Batman than kill the kid's parents and pray he becomes so traumatized that he grows up to wear spandex and fight crime" plan was just beyond stupid. I mean, even if Terry had been a clone of Bruce Wayne, the chances of him becoming a superhero were too small to make Waller's extremely complicated plan worth the trouble (For example, Terry's upbringing was different than Bruce's and the McGuinesses couldn't leave Terry enough money to travel the world meeting martial arts masters with a badass former-spy butler).


But were Tim and Dick ever meant to carry on Bruce's legacy? Not that I know of
Neither was Terry. He only became Batman because he stole the Batsuit and Bruce reluctantly let him keep it. Dick didn't carry on Bruce's legacy because they had a falling out, Tim wasn't allowed to because of the whole Joker thing, and Barbara left because she got sick of Bruce's angsty bullcrap and wanted to lead a normal life.

[Reverend]

Bear in mind that Project Batman Beyond was abandoned at the crucial point. Had Andrea gone through with the hit I doubt very much that Waller would have left the rest up to chance. I imagine she would have stepped in herself (of through a proxy) to take care of the orphaned Terry and guide him to becoming the new Batman.
One would assume he would have turned out darker, more militant than the Terry we know. Might make a good alternate universe story.

[Daphne Blake]

Just want to mention, I haven't read all the replies but the ones I did had some interesting perspectives.

Personally, when I watched it (seen it once and it was a while ago). I didn't dig the concept what so ever. Terry being Bruce's son/clone seemed to me lame and cliqshade(sorry don't have a clue how to spell that word so I did it how it sounds!), fo me it spoilt it. I haven't really gotton into Batman Beyond, watched the first 2 eps. and wasn't too bothered about it, though I am interested to watch more when I finish buying the boxsets I do want but I am a massive fan of B:TAS and I personally felt no other comic book hero show has touched it because of it's darkness and characters. But honestly, I really didn't like the concept of that eps, and I felt that Terry's and Bruce's bond could have been derived from something more dark like the thrist for vengence.

[Wolf Boy2]

Falling back on "divine intervention" was the lamest mistake the writers could've ever made.

I'd have liked it much better if Bruce had known all along who Terry was and had been pulling strings, manipulating Terry into being Batman.

[Wonderwall]

Falling back on "divine intervention" was the lamest mistake the writers could've ever made.

I'd have liked it much better if Bruce had known all along who Terry was and had been pulling strings, manipulating Terry into being Batman.

Cept that strips every bit of heart Bruce Wayne has. And although the guy is callous, one thing he isn't is heartless. Honestly, how is that even remotely a good idea, if that were the case this episode would be totally pointless, as there's no moral at all. This was the best way they could've gone with it once they started. And I hate when shows make all these characters have all these plots strung together since before the beginning but we don't know it until later, its the most contrived plot device. They were already pushing it with Waller being involved, but they handled it well, had Bruce known too would've been stupid.

[Reverend]

I think Bruce did know. He may be old but he's still the world's greatest detective. Precisely when he knew is another matter, it depends on your point of view (see: Time Warped.)
However I don't subscribe to the idea that Bruce manipulated Terry into being Batman, indeed if you watch Rebith again you can see Bruce dose everything he can to scare him off, almost to the point of getting Terry's head kicked in when he switches off the suit.

[Toddman]

Bear in mind that Project Batman Beyond was abandoned at the crucial point. Had Andrea gone through with the hit I doubt very much that Waller would have left the rest up to chance. I imagine she would have stepped in herself (of through a proxy) to take care of the orphaned Terry and guide him to becoming the new Batman.
One would assume he would have turned out darker, more militant than the Terry we know. Might make a good alternate universe story.

Without a doubt, Waller would have stepped in and subversively provided the finances and guidance that would have been necassary to fulfill the rest of the "Batman Secret Origin" process.

And Reverend brings up an interesting point about the theory that Waller had intentions of engineering a Batman that fell more closely in line with her own more aggressive sensibilities...

Consider that young Bruce Wayne had just enjoyed a viewing of "The Mark of Zorro" the night his parents were killed. According to the dream/flashback in "For the Man Who Has Everything" he was even imitating the actions of the heroic lead character just as the gunman stepped out of the shadows. Wayne was so traumatized not just by the deaths of his parents but also by the instrument that killed them that he swore off the use of guns in his crimefighting quest forever.

In "Epilogue" we see that the McGinnis family is leaving the theater after a watching a gun-toting version of the Grey Ghost. Just like Wayne, young Terry McGinnis is imitating the actions of the movie's lead character, pretending to fire rounds from a machine gun. Again a would-be killer steps out of the shadows, only this time the killer is about to strike with a blade, not a gun.

One might assume that since Bruce Wayne was so affected by the gun that took the lives of his parents, perhaps Terry McGinnis would have embraced guns, just as the fictional Grey Ghost did.

...either that, or he really would have freaked out about scythes.


Toddman

[N0-1_H3r3]

Bear in mind that Project Batman Beyond was abandoned at the crucial point. Had Andrea gone through with the hit I doubt very much that Waller would have left the rest up to chance. I imagine she would have stepped in herself (of through a proxy) to take care of the orphaned Terry and guide him to becoming the new Batman.
Equally likely is that Bruce, unable to give up on old habits, would have taken Terry in, having seen the obvious similarities between Terry's current situation, and his own past, much as he did with Dick and Tim decades earlier.

But then, that's probably why Andrea didn't go through with it - she knows what Bruce went through, and what he became, and doesn't want to force someone else to go down that same path.

Regardless, Terry would have ended up becoming a hero of sorts - regardless of all other factors, he's got that same compassion and respect for others that Bruce, and most of the Justice League demonstrate, just as Waller explains. Terry has those 'heroic instincts'; the inclination to help people and act selflessly, and had them before he became Batman, as demonstrated by the way he stands up to Jokerz when they're tormenting other people. Even if he just ended up becoming a Cop or similar, that part of his personality would still have exerted itself somehow.

[Wolf Boy2]

Here's a good question: since the McGinnis couple has "psycological profiles nearly identical to Bruce's parents", does that mean the Waynes would've divorced had they stayed alive?

Oh, and BTW, the Grey Ghost always did use guns. You can see it on the Grey Ghost posters in the BTAS episode.

[Wonderwall]

Here's a good question: since the McGinnis couple has "psycological profiles nearly identical to Bruce's parents", does that mean the Waynes would've divorced had they stayed alive?

I've wondered that a few times too, but who knows, life doesnt work the same for certain couples just cuz their psychlogical profiles are similar. I always thought they divorced because Warren would think that Mary( that was her name right? ) was unfaithful due to the fact that both her kids look nothing like him.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Here's a good question: since the McGinnis couple has "psycological profiles nearly identical to Bruce's parents", does that mean the Waynes would've divorced had they stayed alive?

I doubt it. There are lots of differences between the Waynes and McGinnises. The Waynes only had one kid. Plus they were much better off financially. And they were born a century apart.


I always thought they divorced because Warren would think that Mary( that was her name right? ) was unfaithful due to the fact that both her kids look nothing like him.

True that.

[Yojimbo]

I've wondered that a few times too, but who knows, life doesnt work the same for certain couples just cuz their psychlogical profiles are similar. I always thought they divorced because Warren would think that Mary( that was her name right? ) was unfaithful due to the fact that both her kids look nothing like him.

I think it was implied on "Rebirth" that Warren McGinnis became a work-aholic, he even took work home. Mary McGinnis got tired of being stuck with raising two children alone, since it seemed implied throughout the series that she had her own dreams she wanted to pursue, (wanting Terry to took on more responsibilities while she studied for certification [never revealed what]).

[ShadowStar]

Just tried (unsuccessfully) to watch "Return of the Joker", "Time, Warped" and "Epilogue" back to back. I would have succeeded if not for a phone call helf way through "Epilogue" that meant I missed a chunk of it. :p But I have to say... they're awesome. All of them. Some of you should try that sometime. I was always struck by how how beautifully "Return of the Joker" seemed to close off the universe, but then again, that was before I saw JL/JLU, and I hadn't even seen TNBA or S:TAS. Anyway, watching all three of the aforementioned stories back to back was quite the experience. I was in awe throughout. 15 year long universes is where it's at in the entertainment business! The DCAU may be over, but it went out with a bang... several times. Gotta appreciate that. Random and off-topic: In the UK, "Return of the Joker" was first released on my 11th birthday, so that stirred up some fond memories today. :) It was the edited version, though, and I've since got the uncut one, which I watched now... but who cares! :D I was just reading Maxie Zeus' analysis of "Epilogue" and it opened my eyes to how epic stuff like this doesn't come our way very often.

http://www.toonzone.net/anbat/bb/epilogue.htm

Anyone agree with him about his thoughts on Batman Begins? That movie's a serious contender for the title of best superhero movie ever, but he says it's garbage compared to "Epilogue"... Much as I enjoyed Batman Begins, "Epilogue" is so much more special. Who here would go so far as to say that the DCAU walloped all live-action superhero movies (most of you, I hope)?

[ROBOTRON]

:D - 5 Stars.

Pure friggin' genius. What a way to end the Cadmus arc...with one of my fav DC chars, Batman Beyond (Terry McGinnis). Should've won an Oscar or Emmy or whatever award there are for toons.:cool:

[Alex Weitzman]

Yes!

I found a back-up copy of my review from the original thread. For a while, I thought I'd lost the durned thing forever. So, this may not be new (especially for anyone who remembers it from the first talkback), but there's no harm in posting it again so that it can be on Toon Zone somewhere.

-------------------

There are two main reasons to love Epilogue, and it should surprise no one that one of them is far more favored than the other. That chosen reason, of course, is for what Epilogue does for the character of Bruce Wayne/Batman. For 13 years now, we've had a brilliant run of the DC Animated Universe, and the whole reason it exists boils down ultimately to the initial appeal of Batman, perhaps the most singularly accessible and compelling superhero character ever created. Accessible for his recognizable humanity, compelling for his distance from typical reality. That his incarnation within the DCAU has been (rightly) praised as the single finest cinematic version of Kane and Finger's creation only adds to the fact that, when you really focus and explore Batman, you're almost guaranteed to create bliss in an audience.

It is to the credit of Timm and McDuffie that they do not rest on just this fact alone. Epilogue does not exhibit the lackadaiscal half-effort of someone who knows they're playing with a character that would be popular no matter what (blame can be levied towards other sources for that, but prudence dictates not naming names); instead, it burns with the dangerous fire of a terrible storytelling risk. That risk should be dead obvious to anyone who has seen the episode. The revelation of Terry McGinnis' parentage (at least, genetically) is the sort of thing that could be seen as flat-out line-crossing - a horrible thing to note for an artistic team whose long run so rarely shows anything like that. But, much like the torrid implications of Barbara Gordon's man-hopping, the difference between high-stakes drama and soap operatics remains a matter of justification and expression. The revelation is treated with the shock and fury it deserves, but the characters are written so intelligently and acted so insightfully that these gasps and yells come from a place we completely believe. Epilogue, in that sense, is a good example to note the entire DCAU's faith in the power of true theatrics: because these basic theatrical elements are so well-conceived, Epilogue doesn't go "too far", but definitely goes where we'd never have dreamed.

The obvious questions get brought up, of course: what does this mean for Terry, and for Bruce? For Bruce, it may mean close to nil. As noted elsewhere, the B&W sequences are fantasies, not flashbacks (still, credit is also due to TimmCo's crafty use of said sequences in such a way that the episode can still be entirely understood if such scenes were indeed flashbacks). Ergo, Bruce may not know; at least, there's no hints in "reality" as to whether he does or does not. Beyond the positive finale for Bruce's lineage, though, there is a certain appropriateness in the shift of Bruce's focus in life, as seen in the final scene between him and Terry. It's a little thing, but the fact that Bruce made soup for Terry is something that strikes me as very Alfred-esque. Old men who don't let age stand in the way of caring for their crimefighting surrogate sons and making sure they keep healthy. During Batman Beyond, Old Man Wayne never really existed in an Alfred role; he never had that tone. He was stricter, and still more of a drill sergeant. Even though that's still visible in that last scene of Epilogue, there's an underlying love shining through that wasn't ever quite as noticable before. For so long during Bruce's Batman years, it seemed that Alfred had to force his goodness and kindnesses on Bruce, a man too focused on his solemn vow to really appreciate it. That Bruce's final years see him becoming Alfred is, for me, an incredibly happy thing.

For Terry, naturally, the point of the whole endeavor is that he continues to fight crime of his own accord, and that the drive for justice that he feels has nothing to do with who he is genetically. There is no doubt a certain kind of Greek coincidence at place with the rest of Batman Beyond when you take Epilogue into account, particularly with Rebirth. Is it a crime to change the random occurrences of Rebirth's first meeting of Terry and Bruce into something ordained by the slow, grinding wheel of Fate? Not really; coincidence is no more justifiable or perferable than the other, outside of the realm of opinion. Consider also that the motivating parental death for Terry was due to Derek Powers, a man who could not take control of Wayne Enterprises until Bruce Wayne gave up being Batman, and thusly also stopped caring about keeping an eye on his family's company. In that roundabout way, the first death of Batman is responsible for the eventual rebirth of Batman "Beyond". This means that, DNA aside, Bruce's fate has significant repercussions on the future fate of Terry McGinnis.

But, you know, while all this interconnecting about the Batmen is fun (and it is), I'm keen to have a different kind of fun with Epilogue. It's that second reason to love the episode that I hinted at early on in this review. I mean to prove that, Batman stuff aside, this episode is really a perfect finale for JLU - ESPECIALLY the Cadmus arc. The Cadmus arc always brought to light an ideological debate, a question of the responsibilities of superheroes. When all was said and done, Cadmus was proven wrong and the League was proven right....right? Well, yes, but Cadmus itself cannot be proven anything except ineffectual. Cadmus, as a section of a bureaucracy, cannot hold a belief anymore than it can drink a glass of water. But Amanda Waller can. The Cadmus arc is not really that much about Cadmus (in the end, it is exactly what we thought it was - a reactionary section of the government that tried to prove something that wasn't true), but it IS about Amanda Waller. To me, this is the perfect path to take. There is no way to say anything about a group if it's not really an example of group mentality, and at no point in JLU's history has either the League or Cadmus ever shown real group mentality, the way a cult or the Nazis do. But you can key into an individual, and show the arc of beliefs, mistakes, and emotions that make them up. To me, that's poetic.

Waller is illuminated by Epilogue in a way that mirrors the illumination of Hawkgirl in Starcrossed. Both characters seemed to have a single tune to hum, until the final episode rewrites the way we look at their earlier actions and shows new beauty and real intelligence. Epilogue's span of Amanda Waller's actions reinvigorates the key behind what she was doing with Cadmus, and ultimately brings closure to what she has learned. What is Cadmus? Cadmus is control. Cadmus is worry about the League being out of control. Cadmus is Lex craftily controlling the government so that he can be granted ultimate control. Most importantly, Cadmus is Amanda Waller needing to control the tide of justice. She is the one member of Cadmus who is there on purely ideological reasons. Eiling's there on seeming callous prejudice. Hamilton's there on fear. And so forth. Ergo, the purpose of Cadmus rests with the reasons of Amanda Waller. Now, compare Cadmus and the League. What's the main differences between them? Ultimately, just two things: the people associated with and the core mission. Why didn't we see Superman cross the line? Because his prevention system was there all along: people like Green Arrow and the Flash, and a devotion not to power but to assistance of innocents. Amanda Waller took from the wrong side of the law because they were available, and associated with the wrong people; additionally, she did not have a need to follow heroic principles, because all she felt she needed was to control the system itself.

So, what happened after Divided We Fall? Waller only learned half the lesson. She realized she wasn't hanging out with the right crowd, but she never learned the lesson about not crossing the line. She never learned to hold to noble principles after the Brainiex debacle. And in Epilogue, she finally learns that lesson. While she's hanging out with the League - again, the right people to be with - she's seeing how much good they do, and again feels the need to control it. She chooses Batman: 1. he's the one that actually engaged her in the ideological debate; 2. he's the easiest to synethize genetically; and 3. he's the ultimate example of heroism, as the man whose life is always the most on the line. So she starts Operation: Batman Beyond, which halts when Andrea Beaumont tells her off. We don't hear the exchange, but we know the outcome and can therefore guess. It is here that Waller finally realizes the point. Andrea Beaumont once fought without the same proper core mission of the League as well, but Bruce taught her something, and she teaches it to Amanda: you can't have one without the other. You can't kill in the name of creating a man who never kills, and you can't devote yourself to his side without devoting to his cause.

The Cadmus arc completes itself in the guise of old Amanda Waller, a woman who now knows the truth. It was never appropriate for her to stake a claim in controlling the system of good and evil in the first place. Whether having poor fellows, poor principles, or both, the pieces are in place to plummet. Amanda Waller shows she knows this in Epilogue, a woman who finally understands the value of real heroism. And consider this: the marriage of the most noble associates and the most noble of goals is the exact definition of the Justice League in the first place. Noble in principle, not in authority. Superman toed the line in JLU, caught himself, and apologized. It took Amanda Waller several more decades, but she also eventually realized her folly and turned herself around. As fine a point as Epilogue places on closing up the DCAU as a whole, and particularly Batman, I am more in love with what it does for the individual series under which it is housed. It truly is the best finale for this season, and it brings full closure to this season-wide storyline that some thought got dodged with Divided We Fall. It didn't get dodged. It's just not easy enough to wrap up in a neat little package in just that small timeframe.

[ShadowStar]

An absolutely brilliant essay, Alex. The perfect companion to Maxie Zeus's one. You guys make it look so easy - thank you for providing me with all the more reason to love "Epilogue".

[dark knight 90]

WOW!! - I much prefer these in depth essays as opposed to the sparse reviews. Great Job!!:D

I like the way the episode is quite ambigous and plays with your feelings on these particular charcters. After the abrupt ending that the series had i was hoping the team would return to give the show and its characters a sense of closure... but still allowing the story to continue in our mind.

Again, a really solid deconstruction of the episode!!!

[Antiyonder]

While it was nice to get a Justice League series in the first place, it would have been nice to see Batman Beyond go on for another season.

And while the movie "Return Of The Joker" was the best from the series, it was disappointing that it had to end with Unmasked airing for it's final episode. Mainly because Batman and Superman will always have the comics to fall back on, whereas Terry might not.

So as you can imagine when this episode aired, it was nice to visit Terry's time again in "The Once And Future Thing Part 2" and this episode. Though it was a shock to find he was Bruce's son, it doesn't ruin the coincidental meeting between Bruce and Terry (from the Batman Beyond premiere). Plus I'm thankful they touched upon Terry and Dana's relationship. Good move.

But hey, they call it Unlimited for a reason.

[zmanjz]

Hard to believe it took me nearly 5 years to catch this episode.

(Though not all that suprising when CN has basically abandoned quality action animation for drek)

What a phenominal piece of work that episode was. It reminded me just how epic the DCAU truly was, with phenominal depth and effort devoted to character development.

It still amazes me how each episode of the series can stand well alone, but when viewed in light of the entire series, it remains an unmatched feat of storytelling in this medium.

[GWOtaku]

I wasn't intending to bump for it but since this thread is now up again, I just thought I'd point to my recent blog post Why "Epilogue" Honors Terry McGinnis (http://blog.toonzone.net/blogs/103/why-epilogue-honors-terry-mcginnis/). As the title suggests, the focus was mostly on refuting lingering concerns from some fans that Epilogue somehow changed Terry's status as an independent, unique character. To the contrary, I say that it gave him a fitting finishing touch. Read it all; thoughts are more than welcome!

[BigFatHairyDeal]

I wasn't intending to bump for it but since this thread is now up again, I just thought I'd point to my recent blog post Why "Epilogue" Honors Terry McGinnis (http://blog.toonzone.net/blogs/103/why-epilogue-honors-terry-mcginnis/). As the title suggests, the focus was mostly on refuting lingering concerns from some fans that Epilogue somehow changed Terry's status as an independent, unique character. To the contrary, I say that it gave him a fitting finishing touch. Read it all; thoughts are more than welcome!

Good read. As with many things in life, the question is not so much "Yes or no?" but "How much?" Does making Terry Bruce's biological son take away from Terry? The answer to me is at least "a little," even though Terry's status isn't totally diminished. For one, making Bruce Terry's biological son already raises the question how effective Terry could be as Batman if he were someone else's boy. Overall, though, this is minor, because the show has done a good job of pointing out that Terry can stand on his own two feet, but Bruce is still another level. We already know Terry is gifted, we just get a(n in)convenient explanation of how he got that way.

The things about this episode that a lot of people don't like, I conjecture, has less to do with Terry's stature and more with the overall plot. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." We all had our conceptions of Terry's background and upbringing, and learning that he was actually Bruce's son, and Cadmus tried interfering with his life, would be completely out of left field if those two weren't the principal characters. Instead, it's just somewhat surprising, and possibly unlikable. If you were fine with Terry's original origins, the retcon regarding genetics might sting. I ask, does the change make the story better, or is it more of a plot twist? I guess the latter, and totally unnecessary at that.

My only other gripe about the episode is that it's a little guilty of Batman cheerleading. Throughout the DCAU's run, many fans have openly questioned if the there's too much emphasis on Batman's qualities, and not enough on the "coolness" of the other heroes. This episode isn't really bad in that regard, and fortunately Waller's gushing can be largely written off as ramblings of an admirer, but amidst her narrative it starts sounding like that's what the writers are telling us. This is perhaps only a problem for me because I'm always wary of how much of a role Batman should have in the JLA; I've always argued Batman's role should be noticeably limited, but noticeably important. Painting Batman as "the guy," I think, is a really bad idea, especially since he's supposed to be "part-time."