Sit back...relax...ENJOY it darnit! [Archive]

Mr. Obsession

01-31-2002, 04:45 PM

Amen Bird_Boy.

I admit that JL has flaws, but I'm also seeing improvement so far in each episode over the last. The writing is improving and the acting is improving. And that's where the majority of peoples complaints are.

The other complaints, about the animation studio chosen and the synthesized music, that's not shows fault, that's Cartoon Network's. And to be fair CN doesn't have the biggest budget of the AOLTW channels. Besides paying for JL, the network is also paying for Samurai Jack, and the continuing Cartoon Cartoon shows, and the three new CC's, and acquiring new shows for Adult Swim (both comedy and the upcoming action block) and acquiring new shows for Toonami. CN has to budget their resources, and JL has to do the same with what they're given.

People want BTAS, I say go watch BTAS. JL, by it's very nature can never be what BTAS was. BTAS gave us a in-depth look at one of DC's major characters, JL is presenting seven.

Apache Chief

01-31-2002, 04:48 PM

Amen. I'm going to go throw in my tape right now and watch Paradise Lost commercial free. Of course, parts one and two are over in about forty minutes without the ads - but so what! And don't even tell me I'm the only one taping, Tivoing, or otherwise saving this kick-ass show!

Batman49

01-31-2002, 04:50 PM

I agree. Glad to hear that there are people who like this show. I've been waiting for this show for a long time and it hasn't dissappointed me.

Fil

Batman 80

01-31-2002, 05:26 PM

Its about time someone posted a thread like this. I'm so sick and tired of reading the bashing that JL has been recieving. This show gets a perfect 10 in my book.

Bud 'n Lou

01-31-2002, 05:31 PM

I respect your opinions, but I disagree. Justice League has a lot of very evident flaws. There's nothing wrong with saying it. I think we're all aware of the problems, but many of us don't wanna say anything. We're all fans, but some of us feel like we're betraying the creators, and think we're somehow no longer loyal fans, if we make criticisms. I think that's wrong. In fact, by pointing out the flaws, hopefully we're HELPING the creators make a better show by letting them know what to improve on for next season.
By now, I think we should all stop the "it's still early in the season" excuse, because we've seen several episodes so far. It's not unfair to make a judgement so far, good or bad. You've all expressed your positive views on the show after seeing what's been presented so far, so by that token, people should be able to express negative opinions too.
Also, I don't believe people are still using the "it's only a cartoon" line. Cartoons can be sophisticated. In fact, that's what I expect from them. Animation is not an excuse for a show being mediocre.
I think that most of us have just put on blinders because of our fandom, so we won't have to recognize the problems with JL. We're all so excited to have a JL series, some of us don't WANT to see the flaws. But you shouldn't ignore the problems. It doesn't make sense to me. It seems mindless. If you broke your leg, you wouldn't try to ignore it, you'd try to do something about it, so it will heal and get better.

Failure

01-31-2002, 05:40 PM

Well, I dont think any of us are saying we should be blind to the flaws of JL. I think all of us will admit there can be some improvements made. But the way the complaints have been neverending you'd think JL made Superfriends look like Citizen Kane or something. I'm not saying people shouldn't complain, but I am saying that people shouldn't just focus on the negatives.

daedalus222

01-31-2002, 05:42 PM

LOL--no but seriously, I was just playing although I did find this post funny. I think it's telling that people attacking the shows flaws are being deemed spoilsports and thatthe chief reasons to not complain are that

1. It's just a 20 minute cartoon

2. Would u prefer that JL not be on the air

Decorum prevents me from answering those the way I would love to as I obviously disagree with those line of thought but I will say this. Every fan that has criticized the show seems particularly well-versed in the JLA (comics verision) and in Timm's previous efforts. The opinions from these people sem well-thought out and if u actually read them seem pretty reasonable.

MOre importantly, it seems these people (myslef included) WANT THE SHOW TO SUCCEED. However, we are not sheep and are not going to accept crap just because it is ONLY A CARTOON (so's Akira dude--why r u on this board if u don't like cartoons?) and bc booty JL is better than no JL (that logic just escpaes me--let me take half your paycheck for the heck of it and see if u like that bc some is better than none).

My point is that we are ALL fans...but being true hardcore fans mean to support somehting u wish was better and to call out what is bad so that they make it better. Parents do it...teachers do it and FANS do it.

Stop trying to censor those of us who want the ultimate JL show.

Bud 'n Lou

01-31-2002, 05:49 PM

Thank you, Daedalus.
And I'd also like to add that, no, I DON'T expect JL to be B:TAS. But I do expect it to be better than it is. With the creative team behind Justice League, that's not an outrageous expectation. I've come to expect a certain degree of quality from them that JL has yet to live up to. It's early in the series, yes. But, really, that's no excuse. These people are not new to the business. They've got experience, and, in fact, a history of high quality work to their credit.

Killtacular

01-31-2002, 05:56 PM

I agree with Bud 'n Lou.

I could overlook all of the visual errors if they had better writers. The writing SUCKS. The dialogue is complete cheese and the zooms to people staring and saying "Oh my god" is getting as annoying as The Mummy Returns. And half of the dialogue is recycled straight out of other cartoon series.

I'm not saying Paul Dini has to come back. I'm saying that Paul Dini SHOULDN'T HAVE TO come back.

The Flash

01-31-2002, 05:56 PM

I wasn't saying stop pointing out the flaws, but must we repeat our complaints over and over and over? Most of the posts on this board complain about the show. I don't mind that some of the time, but reading the same thing over and over again in different wordings does kinda get old. Yeah Superman is a wuss, maybe they'll fix that next season. I can enjoy the show (and not whine about it), even though his weakness bugs me...among some other things.

Batman 80

01-31-2002, 06:02 PM

I agree with the Flash.

Livewire

01-31-2002, 06:18 PM

I like JL. In fact, after watching "Paradise Lost", I think it's getting better. However, I was not one of the people eagerly awaiting for Timm and Co. to do this show. I don't even read mainstream comics. I had only gotten into Timm's style in '96 with the advent of S:TAS. I loved it. From then on, I was hooked on his style. His shows had great animation, clever writing, and excellent voice acting. Where am I going with all this, you might ask?

What I'm trying to say is that if he had never done JL, I wouldn't have minded. His track record was nearly perfect imo(I didn't like BB), and I just didn't think this show would work. The first few episodes had a rocky start, but I think there has been a lot of improvement, especially WW's voice acting. The animation has been very good, too. I don't think there is anything wrong with people pointing out JL's flaws. I still enjoy it, but as a fan of Timm's earlier work, I know JL could be so much better.

Dark Knight

01-31-2002, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by Bud 'n Lou
I respect your opinions, but I disagree. Justice League has a lot of very evident flaws. There's nothing wrong with saying it. I think we're all aware of the problems, but many of us don't wanna say anything. We're all fans, but some of us feel like we're betraying the creators, and think we're somehow no longer loyal fans, if we make criticisms. I think that's wrong. In fact, by pointing out the flaws, hopefully we're HELPING the creators make a better show by letting them know what to improve on for next season.
By now, I think we should all stop the "it's still early in the season" excuse, because we've seen several episodes so far. It's not unfair to make a judgement so far, good or bad. You've all expressed your positive views on the show after seeing what's been presented so far, so by that token, people should be able to express negative opinions too.
Also, I don't believe people are still using the "it's only a cartoon" line. Cartoons can be sophisticated. In fact, that's what I expect from them. Animation is not an excuse for a show being mediocre.
I think that most of us have just put on blinders because of our fandom, so we won't have to recognize the problems with JL. We're all so excited to have a JL series, some of us don't WANT to see the flaws. But you shouldn't ignore the problems. It doesn't make sense to me. It seems mindless. If you broke your leg, you wouldn't try to ignore it, you'd try to do something about it, so it will heal and get better.

Those are good points, and I have no problem with people expressing their critisisms. Its when people have nothing to offer BUT critisism that I have to speak up. Sure theres problems but theres lots of good to say about the show too.

And When I say that the show just started Im not only saying that the show WILL continue to get better, but that it has already started to. So many people I know had their minds set after Secret Origins and they just wont budge that each episode after that has gotten progressively better. And waaaaay to many people are sour because the show isn't BTAS. It's not. Its JL. They are two different shows that have different attitudes.

Finally, when I say something like "its just a cartoon." I can see how you might misread that. I guess what I really mean is that its just a TV show. Obviously cartoons can be sophisticated, and JL is far more sophisticated than most. But the show is here to entertain like any shows. You'll either enjoy it or you wont. So if you dont, dont watch it; and if you do enjoy it.

Critisism is great. And you're totally right that if we just sat around twiddling our thumbs going "THIS IS THE BEST SHOW EVER!" then absolutely nothing would improve. But where the heck is the praise??? Theres so much good to be said and too many people have taken an extreme position against the show that it's become unreasonable. I dont understand why some people bother posting about it if its so bad?

Ruffian

01-31-2002, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by Bird Boy
So, all I got to say is....sit back....relax....and enjoy it.
What he said. ;)

Maxie Zeus

01-31-2002, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by Dark Knight
But where the heck is the praise??? Theres so much good to be said and too many people have taken an extreme position against the show that it's become unreasonable. I dont understand why some people bother posting about it if its so bad?

I think you and others may be picking up on the fact that there hasn't been careful, argumentative and thoughtful praise like there has been careful, argumentative and thoughtful criticism. (At least, I've found the criticism to be that.) There actually has been a lot of praise for the show, but most of it is of the short "The episode ROCKED!" or "JL is COOL!" kind of burst.

I've been a critic of the show, but I also feel the lack of praise. If no one else will pick up the reins, I guess I'll have to go over to the "What JL Does Right" thread pretty soon and do it myself. :)

Failure

01-31-2002, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
I've been a critic of the show, but I also feel the lack of praise. If no one else will pick up the reins, I guess I'll have to go over to the "What JL Does Right" thread pretty soon and do it myself. :)

Definitely pick it up and run Maxie! Profound, analytical criticism isn't exactly my strong point, otherwise I would've contributed to the "What JL Does Right" thread. But if anyone can write a convincing argument, I'd place my faith in you.

MattL.

01-31-2002, 09:04 PM

Actually this thread does bring up a very good point.

It *is* possible that we spend so much time being critiques and analyst and trying to making everything adhere to this alter of "sophistication" that we've forgot how to enjoy it.

One of the things that I like about Bruce Timms work is that in stark contrast to the mainline comics of the past 20 years that seem to pride themselves so much on "sophistication", Timms work isn't overthought.

Which I think is something people in their quest for comics to be "sophisticated" and accepted tend to forget.

Just as much as you can underthink superheroes, you *can* ovethink them to.

Some genres, the story comes to you. In others, you have to go to the story. Superheroes is like that. You can't go into it having a stick up your ***** about spandex and superpowers trying to wedge into "reality".

But at the same time, it shouldn't be an excuse to approach it in a careless and stupid manner.

I think all of the Bruce Timm series including this one (dispite any flaws) succeed in creating the balance needed.

Bird Boy

01-31-2002, 09:20 PM

yeah, like flash said (
I wasn't saying stop pointing out the flaws, but must we repeat our complaints over and over and over? Most of the posts on this board complain about the show. I don't mind that some of the time, but reading the same thing over and over again in different wordings does kinda get old. Yeah Superman is a wuss, maybe they'll fix that next season. I can enjoy the show (and not whine about it), even though his weakness bugs me...among some other things.). I'm aware of JL's flaws, I just wanna stop hearing about them...everytime a new episode airs, it's the same thing....

ah well....hopefully this won't turn into what I think it will....

-BB

Barb Gordon

01-31-2002, 09:36 PM

I think I'd have to agree with what everyone has remarked upon. Fans should be allowed to critisize a show, new or not, but not to overdo it, that JL is not and will never be B:TAS, and that you can't expect everything to be correct. Flaws are a thing a of life. If we all kept commenting on what was wrong, and the animators listened to us, so that everything was fixed to our liking....we would STILL find more flaws, we would never be satisfied. Perhaps that's it: Fans want to be satisifed, they want it done right. I want it done right too, but nothing is ever going to be perfect, and you have to accept that. If they get the majority of things right, then yeah, I'm thrilled. There will be flaws, like Wonder Woman shouldn't be able to beat up Superman, etc., but there will also be a lot of good things. At least for me, I love how they're doing Batman so far, they're doing a great job with keeping him in character, and the Flash as well. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, it's what makes life fun. Everyone here can find something to like about JL, and we can also all find something that really bothers us about it. Simple bashing and arguments about the flaws are no fun. Of course people are going to get sick and tired of post that say "this was horrible" or "that sucks, that's not right". But if we were to have intelligent conversations stating reasons for why something may bother you, then I think everyone would be happy. We could probably learn a lot from each other and what we all think about certain things if we had good reasoning for our statements about our likes and dislikes. But, this is just my personal opinion, and I could be completely wrong here. I'm done carrying on, later!

Barb^-^

Failure

01-31-2002, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by Bird Boy
ah well....hopefully this won't turn into what I think it will....
-BB

I'm sure we can keep all this civil. We've all done a good job so far. *knock on wood*

Maxie Zeus

02-01-2002, 09:42 AM

One thing to keep in mind is that JL, like any series, is made up of individual episodes, which can vary in quality. As has been pointed out, BTAS had its share of clunkers. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that an individual episode like "I've Got Batman In My Basement" or "Critters" (to take some uncontroversial examples) are rife with flaws, and to point this out is not inconsistent with loving BTAS and thinking it a great series.

But to go from "'Paradise Lost' is flawed" to "Justice League is flawed" is a bigger step -- it's a generalization based upon experience with the individual epis. It says that there were enough flaws of the same kind in enough episodes to say that the series itself suffered from them.

That is why there is a lot of merit in the defenders' response that we should wait on the rest of the episodes in season 1 before we generalize about JL itself. The point is not to claim that the episodes to come will be better (who can know that?) or that we should hope that they will get better (who doesn't hope that?), but that it is too soon to make the general claim, precisely because we haven't seen all of them.

By all means point out the flaws in "The Enemy Below," "Secret Origins" or "Paradise Lost." Those flaws will remain even if every other episode to come is pure gold. (Just as "The Underdwellers" still stinks even though BTAS as a whole is fantastic.) But it would be more accurate, and would make life around here pleasanter, if the criticisms weren't couched in quite so general a way.

:)

James Harvey

02-01-2002, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
By all means point out the flaws in "The Enemy Below," "Secret Origins" or "Paradise Lost." Those flaws will remain even if every other episode to come is pure gold. (Just as "The Underdwellers" still stinks even though BTAS as a whole is fantastic.) But it would be more accurate, and would make life around here pleasanter, if the criticisms weren't couched in quite so general a way.

:)

Thank you, Maxie. You said it perfectly. And on that note, I'm going to bow out of these seemingly worthless debate so I can enjoy the show on my level. I got some really great advice today on a friend about these discussions and it just made a light turn on in my head. I don't need to defend my decision or the show. Why? Becuase the relentless naysayers will only do damage to themselves, and not the show. I'm not pointing fingers or singling anybody out, but I'm finding it pointless to carry on this debate when it's obvious nothing is getting through. I recommend fans who enjoy the show take this complaints with a grain of salt. Don't let their negativity disrupt your enjoyment.

And with that said....I return to my corner anxiously anticipating the next episode of Justice League.

But one more thing: If I see anyone insulted, bashed, or harrassed for liking this show, I will take action. Personnel insults against other posters is something I won't tolerate here [ie: You're dumb becuase you like JL]. It's just not cool to do that. I'm just telling you all this now.

SimonMoon5

02-01-2002, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by The Flash
I wasn't saying stop pointing out the flaws, but must we repeat our complaints over and over and over? Most of the posts on this board complain about the show.

How odd. I see exactly the opposite. I guess we only see what we don't want to see. In other words, altering your question slightly, "Must we repeat our enjoyment of the show over and over and over? Most of the posts on this board glorify the show!"

Personally, I get sick and tired of excessive praise for episodes which are imho no more than mediocre. YMMV.

SimonMoon5

02-01-2002, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Dark Knight

And When I say that the show just started Im not only saying that the show WILL continue to get better, but that it has already started to.

You'll either enjoy it or you wont. So if you dont, dont watch it; and if you do enjoy it.

I dont understand why some people bother posting about it if its so bad?

Pardon the excessive trimming, but I only wanted to comment on certain statements. Also, I hope this doesn't sound harsher than I meant it to.

(1) The show has just started? We've already seen nine weekly episodes. Is that just the beginning? Aren't we nearly halfway through? I think the show has begun and continued and continued.

(2) The "if you don't enjoy it, don't read/watch/whatever it" excuse is overused. To me it suggests a desire to avoid hearing different points of view.

How about if I said, "If you DO enjoy it, don't post about it!" That would not be taken very well, would it?

Anyway, how can we know if we don't like a particular episode until we watch it? Telling us not to watch an episode we won't like is not very useful advice. Naturally, we would like to see the episodes get better. Should we not watch the hopefully-better episodes just because we have been displeased with the early ones?

(3) Why do we post if it is so bad? Well, why do you post if it so good? Why do you even need to say anything about the perfect show? What more can be said about perfection? (Okay, sarcasm off. )

Why post? Part of it, I admit, is to counterpoint the high praise for mediocrity, which I find difficult to understand. Part of it is to explain this different (ie, critical) point of view, so that there can be mutual understanding.

And to the general topic of the thread, " Sit back...relax...ENJOY it darnit!"...well, some of us can't help but notice flaws since the flaws are so evident. We don't go looking for flaws; rather, flaws come looking for us.

chocolatemilk

02-01-2002, 12:19 PM

It's really hard to "enjoy it" when you don't enjoy it that's my point. I love the characters but I don't enjoy the show... I want to, in the worst way, but can't.

JL4Ever

02-01-2002, 12:39 PM

I'm going to go through SimonMoon5's last post point by point to provide the flip of the arguement presented.

Simon said:
(1) The show has just started? We've already seen nine weekly episodes. Is that just the beginning? Aren't we nearly halfway through? I think the show has begun and continued and continued.

I say:
The first season is 26 episodes long so no we aren't halfway through yet. In my opinion, the show is just getting off the ground as we haven't seen the full first season.

Simon said:
(2) The "if you don't enjoy it, don't read/watch/whatever it" excuse is overused. To me it suggests a desire to avoid hearing different points of view.

How about if I said, "If you DO enjoy it, don't post about it!" That would not be taken very well, would it?

Anyway, how can we know if we don't like a particular episode until we watch it? Telling us not to watch an episode we won't like is not very useful advice. Naturally, we would like to see the episodes get better. Should we not watch the hopefully-better episodes just because we have been displeased with the early ones?

I say:
It's good advise to tell someone not to watch a show that they don't like. Would you eat a bowl of beans if you don't like beans in tthe anticipation that the next bean will taste any different? I felt the same way the anti-JL people feel now when Star Trek: Deep Space Nine came on. I'm a diehard Trek fan but I just didn't like the show and found myself continually complaining about. But midway through the second season I just said this horrible, I don't like it and I'm not going to watch. So, either give the show a chance or don't watch it for your own good.

Simon said:
(3) Why do we post if it is so bad? Well, why do you post if it so good? Why do you even need to say anything about the perfect show? What more can be said about perfection? (Okay, sarcasm off. )

Why post? Part of it, I admit, is to counterpoint the high praise for mediocrity, which I find difficult to understand. Part of it is to explain this different (ie, critical) point of view, so that there can be mutual understanding.

I say:
This is a board designed to give Justice League fans a place to gather and discuss the show, and as fans we like the show, atleast most of us. I'm not saying you can only say good things in order to be a fan, but we fans bemand a more even conversation instead of just people bashing tyhe show.

Simon said:
And to the general topic of the thread, " Sit back...relax...ENJOY it darnit!"...well, some of us can't help but notice flaws since the flaws are so evident. We don't go looking for flaws; rather, flaws come looking for us.

I say:
In some cases this is true, but when people complain about where Wonder Woman put some crystals and why she took the Javelin-7 I see that as minimal, inconsequential and pointless. Who carea really? Is this stuiff so important that you can't enjoy the show? If it is you should do what makes you happy and avoid the show, unless of course this is nit-picking.

The Flash

02-01-2002, 02:04 PM

Very well put, JL4ever.

Ed Liu

02-01-2002, 02:04 PM

Howdy,

I expect this will probably be my last post on the subject, and I seem to have a positive talent for killing threads dead, but...

Originally posted by JL4Ever
I'm a diehard Trek fan but I just didn't like the show and found myself continually complaining about. But midway through the second season I just said this horrible, I don't like it and I'm not going to watch.

You state yourself that it took 'till the middle of the second season to stop watching DS9, but you were continually complaining about the show until then. Why did you keep watching that long when you didn't like the show?

I suspect a lot of the JL "bashers" are exactly in the same boat as you were in with DS9. We're die-hard fans of the comics or of the older DC Animated Universe shows, but we just don't think JL is up to par with the earlier works, and we're complaining about it.

I'm not saying you can only say good things in order to be a fan, but we fans bemand a more even conversation instead of just people bashing tyhe show.

I've seen numerous posters bringing up flaws in JL in intelligent, non-inflammatory, thought-out ways. Most rebuttals to these flaws boil down to "JL is great!". The most compelling argument I've heard so far to address what we perceive as flaws is, "Don't watch the show." We fans (the ones who are still spotting stuff wrong with JL) want a more even conversation, too.

Finally, one man's gripe is another man's triviality. I accept that things that bug me don't concern you. That doesn't make my gripe any less valid to me, or your lack of concern for it any less valid to you.

-- Ed/Ace

JL4Ever

02-01-2002, 02:18 PM

Ace the Bathound wrote:
You state yourself that it took 'till the middle of the second season to stop watching DS9, but you were continually complaining about the show until then. Why did you keep watching that long when you didn't like the show?

I suspect a lot of the JL "bashers" are exactly in the same boat as you were in with DS9. We're die-hard fans of the comics or of the older DC Animated Universe shows, but we just don't think JL is up to par with the earlier works, and we're complaining about it.

I say:
The reason I watched the show so long was because I wanted to like it, and although I complained, I was always looking for the positives unlike bashers here who will just come in and say this was bab, that was bad and therefore the show is bad. Bashers are those that "bash." I think it's important to understand that because a basher isn't always rude, they just have nothing positive to say.

Ace the Bathound wrote:
I've seen numerous posters bringing up flaws in JL in intelligent, non-inflammatory, thought-out ways. Most rebuttals to these flaws boil down to "JL is great!". The most compelling argument I've heard so far to address what we perceive as flaws is, "Don't watch the show." We fans (the ones who are still spotting stuff wrong with JL) want a more even conversation, too.

I say:
Again, you don't have to be rude to be a basher, you just have to be completely negative. As a fan, I like to hear both sides but if all you're going to do is say this wrong and that is wrong so the show sucks, then why should I listen to you, you're obviously one sided from the get go.

Ace the Bathound wrote:
Finally, one man's gripe is another man's triviality. I accept that things that bug me don't concern you. That doesn't make my gripe any less valid to me, or your lack of concern for it any less valid to you.

I say:
You're very right here, all I'm saying is stop dwelling and enjoy or switch the channel completely if it bothers that much.

JLU Dude

02-01-2002, 02:19 PM

I really enjoy the show a lot. I think it's cool. I really like it.

Spider

02-01-2002, 02:20 PM

Jim Harvey,

You wrote:

I'm not pointing fingers or singling anybody out, but I'm finding it pointless to carry on this debate when it's obvious nothing is getting through.

****************

I've had numerous discussions that eventually went this route in Forums on music, philosophy, and religion. There does come a time when one (I think) needs to move on. I just thought what you said was spot on.

But I do like reading constructive criticism. I enables me to dissect the show on a number of levels. In short, it educates me on a subject I know next to nothing about. :)

James Harvey

02-01-2002, 02:33 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Spider. I felt it was just the right hting to say. So - you like to discuss music, eh? Post some stuff up in the AniGen board and let's see if we can get some good music discussions going. :)

Dark Knight

02-01-2002, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by SimonMoon5

(2) The "if you don't enjoy it, don't read/watch/whatever it" excuse is overused. To me it suggests a desire to avoid hearing different points of view.

How about if I said, "If you DO enjoy it, don't post about it!" That would not be taken very well, would it?

Well I think JL4Ever covered most of this stuff pretty well so I dont want to sound like a broken record, but I'd like to say a few things anyway.

With all due respect, I dont see how the "if you dont enjoy it, don't read/watch/whatever it" excuse can be overused. TV, books, and media and general is here for recreation. Its here for pleasure and if thats not what you're getting you're wasting your time. I understand that a lot of people are upset that the show isnt what they expected and theyve been fans of the animated DC shows for a long time. But that's no excuse for allowing a show you cant find anything good to say about hold you prisoner.

I had this same experience with the Simpsons. Id watched them since I was about 7 years old and taped all my favorite episodes (I could literally sit and watch the show for about 5 days straight with all my volumes), but around season 10 or 11 (whichever one it was that Maud died in) I was disgusted. I felt that all the intelligent humor I loved had vanished. So after about 4 episodes of that I was done. I changed the channel and I no longer watch the new episodes of the Simpsons. I didnt want to waste my time and energy complaining when there was better stuff to do.

Now its everyones own individual decision to consider just how much JL displeases them and if its worth sticking it out or not. I dont know what anyone should do exactly thats a personal choice, but trust me it can be done.

And finally I think too many people are taking this to be a little too black and white. I've never said "JL IS GREAT AND THATS MY ARGUMENT!" and ive never said "JL IS PERFECT AND I ONLY WANT TO DISCUSS ITS STRENGTHS!" I welcome critisism. As someone said over the past couple of days if we dont critisize the show the creators wont get any feed back as to how to improve. Critisism is fine and I have some of my own as well, but overall I love the show. The only people to which I say "Why are you even posting?" Is the people who have nothing to offer but critisism and negative points. The true bashers of the show. I could never put so much effort into something I have no love for.

Are there things that could be improved? Always.
Is there stuff that id like to see that they havent gotten to yet? Sure.
Is there stuff that id like to see that they might never get to? Probably.
Does that make the show bad? Thats a matter of opinion I guess.
Does that make the show a failure? Absolutely not.

"And with that said....I return to my corner anxiously anticipating the next episode of Justice League. "

Well said Jim. I also am done debating.

Bud 'n Lou

02-01-2002, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Jim Harvey

Becuase the relentless naysayers will only do damage to themselves, and not the show.

I don't understand this statement.

I'm not pointing fingers or singling anybody out, but I'm finding it pointless to carry on this debate when it's obvious nothing is getting through.

The same can be said for BOTH sides of the arguement.

I recommend fans who enjoy the show take this complaints with a grain of salt. Don't let their negativity disrupt your enjoyment.

I guess I can only speak for myself, but I really don't think anyone's intention to is disrupt other posters' enjoyment of the show. We're fans too, or else we wouldn't be here.

But one more thing: If I see anyone insulted, bashed, or harrassed for liking this show, I will take action. Personnel insults against other posters is something I won't tolerate here . It's just not cool to do that. I'm just telling you all this now.

So far, I don't think I've seen any of the posters who have expressed negative opinions of the show make any such personal attacks. However, I noticed at least one instance when one of JL's defenders made a comment that could possibly be filed under this category (attacking a poster for mistakenly calling the show "JLA" instead of "JL"). I hope you plan to take action against those posters that defend the show who show disrespect for other posters [I]as well as those who have negative opinions of the show.

James Harvey

02-01-2002, 05:10 PM

So far, I don't think I've seen any of the posters who have expressed negative opinions of the show make any such personal attacks. However, I noticed at least one instance when one of JL's defenders made a comment that could possibly be filed under this category (attacking a poster for mistakenly calling the show "JLA" instead of "JL"). I hope you plan to take action against those posters that defend the show who show disrespect for other posters as well as those who have negative opinions of the show.

This will swing both ways. This policy will count for both sides. It's unfair to only emphasize one side, so this will apply to both sides. Yes, you may not agree with someone, but that's no reason to personally attack the person. I am predicting that this will happen soon (I've been running boards for four years so I have a sixth sense about this) so I'm tell y'all now so you can't whine about it when said person gets banned.

SimonMoon5

02-02-2002, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by JL4Ever

It's good advise to tell someone not to watch a show that they don't like. Would you eat a bowl of beans if you don't like beans in tthe anticipation that the next bean will taste any different? I felt the same way the anti-JL people feel now when Star Trek: Deep Space Nine came on. I'm a diehard Trek fan but I just didn't like the show and found myself continually complaining about. But midway through the second season I just said this horrible, I don't like it and I'm not going to watch. So, either give the show a chance or don't watch it for your own good.

This is a board designed to give Justice League fans a place to gather and discuss the show, and as fans we like the show, atleast most of us. I'm not saying you can only say good things in order to be a fan, but we fans bemand a more even conversation instead of just people bashing tyhe show.

when people complain about where Wonder Woman put some crystals and why she took the Javelin-7 I see that as minimal, inconsequential and pointless. Who carea really? Is this stuiff so important that you can't enjoy the show? If it is you should do what makes you happy and avoid the show, unless of course this is nit-picking.

Well, if the show has "barely gotten started" and "will certainly improve", then shouldn't someone who is disappointed in the show continue to watch?

Also, I think us complainers aren't saying "Gosh, I hate this show," but rather "Gosh, the show isn't nearly as good as it could be." I said the show was mediocre, and that's my opinion of it. Is it the worst show ever produced? No. Is it something I hate to watch? No. Is it something I love to watch? No. It is somewhere in between.

It could be better. And maybe it will be better. Is that not an acceptable excuse to watch it? And why do I have to make excuses for watching it? Should movie critics who pan movies be shunned for the fact that they watch movies that they do not like and also have the temerity to say that they don't like it?

The beans analogy doesn't hold water. Beans are unlikely to get better, whereas the show's apologists keep saying "It will get better." If I can believe that the show will get better, then I have a reason to expect that the show will get better. Unlike beans. Though I like beans anyway.

For example, to continue with your Star Trek analogy. When I was in college and Star Trek: The Next Generation started, most of the early episodes were, well, not good. However, the potential was there (unlike many of the later Trek serieses), and the shows did get better. I would recommend that anyone who started watching the early ST:TNG episodes keep watching because it gets better, and I would also recommend that people complain about the poor quality of the early ST:TNG episodes.

"Give the show a chance or don't watch it"? I *am* giving the show a chance by watching it. It doesn't meet my standards of excellence, but I am giving it a chance.

"We fans bemand [sic] a more even conversation"? So, you are saying that I can not be counted as a fan? And I think the nay-sayers are making the conversations more even. Otherwise, it would just be "Hey, JL's great" and "Yup, it sure is."

As far as why WW took the Jav-7, yes, that's important. The Javelin-7 seems to me a useless object for the characters designed solely to make a great toy. It seems out of place, so every time it is used, it seems to me that there needs to be a good reason to use it. The JL had no reason to use it when they went underwater, and WW had no reason to use it to fly home, since she was able to fly from home to Man's world. Some of us expect that everything in the story makes sense (leaving aside issues of suspension of disbelief regarding how superpowers work). If a character takes an action, we should be able to ask, "Why is she doing this?" Preferably, we shouldn't have to ask, it should be obvious. If Superman suddenly punches out Batman in the middle of a fight, there should be a reason, and we shouldn't have to go grasping at straws to explain it. If Wonder Woman suddenly grows five arms, there should be a reason. If Batman suddenly gains the ability to read minds, there should be a reason.

" Is this stuiff so important that you can't enjoy the show? If it is you should do what makes you happy and avoid the show"

Avoiding the show does not make me happy.

Maxie Zeus

02-02-2002, 07:37 PM

The show is getting lots of support from some quarters, and is coming in for sharp criticism from others. Neither side is drowning out the other.

No one should worry about "being heard" or should worry that the "other side" is getting too much attention. Just say what you want to say about the show. That's all you can do, and that's all that you should concern yourselves with.

neilf

02-02-2002, 08:11 PM

Exactly. As has been stated before - I'm glad this show was made. But I also expect it to be good. It could be a great show, and maybe honest criticisms from the fans will help the makers of the show see where they indeed could make improvements. The fact that Mr. Timm has always tinkered with character designs to refine them shows how he is always looking to make it better. I say our thoughtful reviews of the good and bad could be a major help. But don't be afraid to voice any opinions because we should just get down on our knees and thank them for making this show. They've made a whole lot of money because fans like us watched this show. Don't forget that when Hollywood thought they could make a Batman movie without keeping the character the way the fans wanted it they bombed. If creative people took the fans advice and constructive critisism (to a certain degree of course) then wouldn't they make even more money. Let the failed Superman and Batman movies be lessons on being thankful to get the property made in the first place. The celluloid from Superman III and IV or the last two Batman movies isn't even fit for lining a bird cage. So let's remember freedom of speech. We can view both sides and respect each others opinions (even if we disagree).

MattL.

02-02-2002, 08:32 PM

I think the show will improve and I think they'll even get over the current thing of using Superman as a raquet ball.

I think the Star Trek TNG analogy actually works very well. After all like Star Trek this is an ensamble peice as opposed to Batman and Superman. So it may take the show a little while to find its strength.

Thats true of all the shows actually. Even my fav STAS. When it starts its cool and all but just a tad bit slow, then the Intergang subplot kicks in and the ball really starts to roll.

anyone who started watching with say...the Toyman episode could only hope it would reach the coolness of eps like Apokolips Now or Legacy. Low and behold, it did.

This show comes with a megaton of expectations as well as tweaks and changes that will naturally bug some fans at first. But I suspect that by the time we're season 2 or 3 of JL it *will* get better and those these little things that are bugging us we'll be glad that they did.

and by the way Timm and co. if you do utilize fan input, STOP USING SUPES AS A RAQUETBALL! Other than that, keep working fellas. :)

Maxie Zeus

02-02-2002, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by MattL.
This show comes with a megaton of expectations as well as tweaks and changes that will naturally bug some fans at first. But I suspect that by the time we're season 2 or 3 of JL it *will* get better and those these little things that are bugging us we'll be glad that they did.

Ya know, maybe one reason some of us critics are feeling skeptical is because we wonder if the show is going to be around for more than the initial batch. If it isn't, then there isn't a good chance that they'll have the time to iron out the kinks in the remainder.

Yes, I know. Huge ratings + the home on CN = automatic renewals as far as the eye can see. It's just that some of us are just still in "crouch and cover the balls" mode after the abuse KWB rained down on TNBSA and BB. We're having a little difficulty adjusting to the new reality.

So us natural pessimists need to keep chanting: "CN is not KWB. CN is not KWB. There's every chance they'll get it right. CN is not KWB."

:)

Crimson

02-02-2002, 09:46 PM

I'm glad to see there are some people who actually like Justice League ; reading these message boards, I was starting to think I was the only one. After the show premiered, I came to these boards looking to engage in conversation about it. What I found was endless complaining, nit-picking and whining. The incredible negativity kept me from participating until now.

Being a fan of the show doesn't mean having to blindly accept anything the creators offer you; there's nothing wrong with critiquing the show. But there are people on these boards who clearly are unable to find anything about this show they actually like, which leaves me wondering why they bother to watch it? It's a mentality that escapes me, watching a show you don't like on a weekly basis just so you can go online and complain and criticize it. Don't like? Don't watch it. I used to like Angel ; it stopped entertaining me; I stopped watching it. I don't watch it every week, just so I can run to an Angel message board and rip it apart.

Justice League is exactly what a comic book or cartoon based on one should be: heroes with cool powers, saving the world. Basic and powerful. Of course, comic books haven't been that basic (or good) in years. And that's probably a major reason why the comic book industry is in such pathetic shape. It no longer fulfills the needs of its intended target audience, i.e., teen boys. It's has been co-opted by aging fan boys who have, apparently, outgrown the genre but are unwilling to leave it behind. Rather than appreciate it for what it is, they insist that it "grow" with them.

If you're looking to a cartoon based on a comic book for "sophistication" or "mature themes," you might need to reevaluate your tastes. For sophistication, I read novels. I look to the superheroe genre to satisfy the 10-year old that still lurks inside of me. And as a 10 year old, I can assure you, I didn't give a damn about character development. I wanted action.

There are people posting here who seem to think the show focuses on action too much, at the expense of character development or emotional complexity. Thank god. Those things are fine, as long as they aren't what the show is about. But, personally, I don't think I would even want it as a lesser focus. These characters are iconic archetypes -- why lessen them by making them "real." X-Men: Evolution points out the flaw in this approach. A fun show, overall, if a bit too Dawson's Creek -y. But engaging the characters in soap opera dramatics trivializes them.

As for me, I'm loving Justice League . It may not be flawless (and how many things are?), but it comes damn near close to fulfilling my expectations of a cartoon JL. It's certainly incomparably better than any version of Superfriends , an epically bad show that is so dreadful it doesn't even work as camp.

Crimson

02-02-2002, 10:13 PM

As far as why WW took the Jav-7, yes, that's important. The Javelin-7 seems to me a useless object for the characters designed solely to make a great toy. It seems out of place, so every time it is used, it seems to me that there needs to be a good reason to use it. The JL had no reason to use it when they went underwater, and WW had no reason to use it to fly home, since she was able to fly from home to Man's world

Things like that really are inconsequential. It has no bearing on the plot, and why waste precious time out of a measly 20 minutes to explain things that can easily be extrapolated. Why did she take the Javelin? If the team is relying on the Javelin as transportation, I think it's a safe guess that it can travel faster than any of the members (Flash excluded?). If that's the case, Diana could return home faster.

Also, Diana left Themyscira with, apparently, nothing except the costume she was wearing. If she intends to remain in "Man's World," it's not unreasonable to assume she would want to pack up some of her personal belongings to take back with her. They would certainly be easier to transport with the Javelin. See, very easy explanations. Does the show really need to waste time on such minor details?

kid_flash

02-03-2002, 01:40 AM

People have a real habit of criticizing action cartoons. I mean, no one criticizes SpongeBob Squarepants or Dexter's Laboratory. Ya either like it or ya don't.

What I don't get is why people compare JL to BTAS. They're two completely different shows, there is literally no way you can achieve the pyscological level we saw in BTAS when doing JL. JL, on the other hand, has a real hear to it. I mean, J'onn J'onnz is from Mars! He's got super-powers! How do you relate to him? Well, there's a real heart to the character, as seen in Secret Origins. The same goes with Aquaman in The Enemy Below and Diana in Paradise Lost.

So, as others have said, it's like people watch the show for the sole purpose of nitpicking it. I dare you (nay, I DOUBLE DARE you!) to just sit back and have some fun. Challenge yourself, see if you can do it!

SimonMoon5

02-03-2002, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by kid_flash
People have a real habit of criticizing action cartoons. I mean, no one criticizes SpongeBob Squarepants or Dexter's Laboratory. Ya either like it or ya don't.

Wacky comedies have different critieria for being criticized. An action-adventure, plot-based show should be criticized for any failings in the plot aspects; a wacky comedy should not.

And, imho, this is JL's biggest failing. It may have pretty pictures. It may have the occasional line of characterization. But the plots are not strong, and the plots are the most important part, imho.

SimonMoon5

02-03-2002, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by Crimson

If the team is relying on the Javelin as transportation, I think it's a safe guess that it can travel faster than any of the members (Flash excluded?). If that's the case, Diana could return home faster.

Okay, now explain what the rest of the League was planning to do while she took the Jav-7 for an unspecified amount of time (possibly years). :)

Crimson

02-03-2002, 02:02 PM

Okay, now explain what the rest of the League was planning to do while she took the Jav-7 for an unspecified amount of time (possibly years).

Has it been established that there is only one? That would seem odd ... surely the League expects to use the Javelin in combat situations, and therefore could expect it to suffer damage. Not having a backup(s) would be illogical ...

MattL.

02-03-2002, 03:04 PM

Crimson, excellent post. Couldn't have said it better myself.

I would add that I do occasionally like sophisticated experiments like Dini and Ross's Peace on Earth but I dont want every Superman story to be that. Nor should ever Batman story be DKR or whatever NYPD Gotham crap they have going on this week.

Sometimes, I just want Clark to dive into phone booth, turn into Superman and get into a titanic battle of good vs. evil with a supervillan with the fate of the world or at least Metropolis or Superman himself hanging in the balance. I dont see anything wrong with that at all. Its fun and it takes a good writer to make it work so in that respect it really isn't so unsophisticated after all.

Bruce Timms work sets the perfect balance of tone, drama, and action in all his series and I only wish that mainline DC would learn more from that than just stuff like stealing the Kara In-Ze costume for the current convoluted backstory Supergirl.

SimonMoon5

02-03-2002, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by Crimson
I'm glad to see there are some people who actually like Justice League ; reading these message boards, I was starting to think I was the only one.

There are several areas where there is more gushing praise than biting criticism. For example, the thread labeled "Paradise Lost: Part II" contains almost nothing but praise for the first two pages.

Originally posted by Crimson

After the show premiered, I came to these boards looking to engage in conversation about it. What I found was endless complaining, nit-picking and whining.

Of course, complaining *is* conversation.

Originally posted by Crimson

Being a fan of the show doesn't mean having to blindly accept anything the creators offer you; there's nothing wrong with critiquing the show.

Whew, for a minute there, I was beginning to think I was evil. :p

Originally posted by Crimson

But there are people on these boards who clearly are unable to find anything about this show they actually like, which leaves me wondering why they bother to watch it?

I've covered this before, so I won't do it again.

Originally posted by Crimson

It's a mentality that escapes me, watching a show you don't like on a weekly basis just so you can go online and complain and criticize it.

Is this my motivation? Of course not.

Why would someone read all these critical posts just so they can go online and complain about criticism? :p

Originally posted by Crimson

Don't like? Don't watch it.

"Don't like critical posts? Don't read them. " Is that a fair response?

Originally posted by Crimson
Justice League is exactly what a comic book or cartoon based on one should be: heroes with cool powers, saving the world.

It seems that your idea of perfection differs from mine. I also require plots that make sense and plots with endings that are satisfying.

Originally posted by Crimson

Basic and powerful.

Characters like that would be nice. I can't wait until some show up on Justice League.

Originally posted by Crimson

If you're looking to a cartoon based on a comic book for "sophistication" or "mature themes," you might need to reevaluate your tastes.

Fortunately, this is not addressed at me, so I can ignore it.

Originally posted by Crimson

It's certainly incomparably better than any version of Superfriends , an epically bad show that is so dreadful it doesn't even work as camp.

I've read this statement as a justification for the "Justice League" cartoon's supposed magnificence, and I have to wonder... when did Superfriends set the bar for being the best that a cartoon can be? Yes, Justice League is better than Superfriends. Is that the best we can hope for, to merely be better than Superfriends?

SimonMoon5

02-03-2002, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Crimson

Has it been established that there is only one? That would seem odd ...

Well, they do refer it to as "the" Javelin-7, not "a" Javelin-7. I'm guessing that the first six were destroyed off panel (due to the League's love of property destruction) before they were able to get the 7th Javelin. :)

neilf

02-03-2002, 03:44 PM

I'm probably going to get flattened for this comment but I have to say it. Why are the people who defend the show (which by all means is their right to do so) so defensive and angry with the fans who are pointing out how the show could be better? I have yet to see someone giving constructive criticism to the show make comments towards those who defend it. Those defending the show seem to be hostile towards those that are merely trying to articulate how the show could be better. I know that JL can't be another BTAS. But that doesn't mean that I should be happy about poor dialogue and acting. Or that I should accept that because there are seven characters I should forget about characterization. I have stated in other posts the personal reason that I love the BTAS and STAS eps so much. I shouldn't be scolded for having an opinion on how I'd love to see this show improve. If you love the show - great! If you love these characters and are disappointed with some aspects of the show then you should be able to intelligently voice your opinions.

I suppose people who didn't like the last two Batman movies should have kept their opinions to themselves also. That way Hollywood would keep pumping out garbage like Batman and Robin (the movie with Clooney). Maybe it's because of fan reaction and the statements we made that they realize they have to get back to what makes the character appealing. These boards are for discussion - not for being chastized for not sharing the same opinion as everyone else. We should be polite to each other and respect each other's views.

Crimson

02-04-2002, 05:26 AM

Originally posted by SimonMoon5

Well, they do refer it to as "the" Javelin-7, not "a" Javelin-7. I'm guessing that the first six were destroyed off panel (due to the League's love of property destruction) before they were able to get the 7th Javelin. :)

Referring to something as "the" doesn't necessarily imply that it is unique. Although I guess it hasn't been established on the show, one way or the other, I doubt there is only one. The Avengers have several, but will still refer to it as "the Quinjet"

Crimson

02-04-2002, 05:46 AM

"Don't like critical posts? Don't read them. " Is that a fair response?

My earlier visits to these boards left me the impression of almost total negativity. As I result, I didn't participate or continue reading. I did, however, pop back from time to time to see if things were different. Finally noticing that the board is not filled only with complaints about the show, I decided to participate.

The difference between "not reading critical posts" or "not watching a show you don't like" is vast. Once I'm familiar with things around here, if I find there are posters who are completely negative, I can chose to ignore those posts. Message boards are selective. TV shows are not. If you (and I don't mean you specifically) don't like a show, there really is no point in watching it.

I also require plots that make sense and plots with endings that are satisfying.

I haven't noticed any plot points that are glaringly illogical. And "satisfying" is awfully subjective.

Fortunately, this is not addressed at me, so I can ignore it.

Except that you clearly didn't ignore it. :p

I've read this statement as a justification for the "Justice League" cartoon's supposed magnificence, and I have to wonder... when did Superfriends set the bar for being the best that a cartoon can be? Yes, Justice League is better than Superfriends. Is that the best we can hope for, to merely be better than Superfriends?

Okay, perhaps my comparison wasn't broad enough. How about this ... ? Justice League is better than any previous cartoon superhero group: better than Superfriends , better than either X-Men , better than WildCats or The Avengers . It is, in fact, better than any other superhero cartoon, excluding its predecessors BTAS, STAS and BB -- and if it doens't quite match BTAS, at its best, it is on par with the other two.

Supernovametalstar

02-04-2002, 11:37 AM

I've only recently gotten a chance to watch JL and I like it very much. After reading some of the threads here, it seems that people are expecting the show to be the perfect version of what they want, whatever that may be. I think that some people over analyze the show. Take Paradise Lost for instance. Someone pointed out that they reused some footage of Flash running from a STAS. I didn't even notice it until I watched it over again, and even then, I had to watch frame by frame to see exactly what they were talking about. If I was watching the show just to point out the flaws, then I wouldn' t have any fun watching it :D . There's this whole debate on Superman being too weak and other things that apparently stem from the comics, that is way over my head.

I'm not saying that people can't complain about a show if they don't want to, but it seems like some people go overboard. I can't find any faults with the show so far aside from the episodes ending too fast. Maybe because the show is still so new to me and I've had the benefit of seeing some of the better animated ones, that I don't know about the faults of previous episodes. But from what I've seen it is a good show (can't call it great yet) and I'm throuroughly entertained for the 20+ minutes that it is one, and even watch the replays, which is something I cannot say for a vast majority of animated programs.