Why didn't the Bat-family join the JLU?

[S.C.B]

Before anyone states the obvious, I know about the Bat-embargo. I'm talking about this from a character and storyline perspective.

Why do you think Nightwing, Batgirl and Robin weren't in that line up in 'Initiation'? Was it their choice? Dick (perhaps by now) has Bludhaven, Barbara is at college, and Robin is in school and is "with the Titans" (that's not me shoe-horning Teen Titans into continuity, that's a Static Shock quote), so maybe they all decided to decline the offer.

Or do you think it was Batman? I can see him not wanting them in League, but there are a few different reasons as to why. First is that he simply wants someone watching over Gotham while he's off hopping galaxies and having lunch with Green Lantern. Another is that he doesn't think they're good enough for the League and the large scale battles they have to take part in (although I don't think that's it, it would probably come across that way when Bruce got around to telling them).

Third, Batman might just be worried about them, since he's closer to them than any of the League (Diana and Supes included). He can't afford to be nervously glancing over his shoulder at Robin while in the middle of a fight with Darkseid.

Which do you think it is? Or perhaps you think it's something else? Share!

[Wolf Boy2]

Because they would've been killed quickly and easily by JLU enemies.

There were non-powed JLU members like Green Arrow and Batman, but the Bat-Family was nowhere in their league (no pun intended).

Nightwing.... maybe. But Tim and Barbara? Heck, no.

[N0-1_H3r3]

After pondering the "What happened to Dick Grayson" question recently, I'd imagine that, during an odd period of reconciliation, Batman asked Dick/Nightwing to keep an eye on Gotham while he was away on League business, at around the time the League was founded (before it was restructured into the JLU). After the Thanagarian Invasion, the system was still working - between Nightwing, Batgirl and Robin, Gotham is kept safe while Batman is on league business, and if something big comes up in Gotham, Batman can head home and take charge again.

When the League scaled itself down and 'loosened up' after the Cadmus Incident, Batman was on league business less and less, and Nightwing takes that opportunity to leave and set himself up in Blüdhaven - he and Bruce part on decent terms, though.

Of course, because he's busy in Blüdhaven a while later when Tim is captured and brutalised by The Joker, he can't answer the calls for assistance... which drives him and Bruce apart... but that's a theory for another, more future-focussed thread.

[Wolf Boy2]

According to Mystery of the Batwoman, Barbara was studying in London roughly around the time of JL season 2 (MOTB had references to Kasnia, and the JL episode "Maid of Honor").

[Batlaw]

I always satisfied myself with the scenario that Bat-kids were left in charge of Gotham while Bats tended to League Business. That and the fact just because we didnt see them, doesnt mean they werent there lol.
I dissagree with the sentiment none of them couldve handled their own in the League though. But I do imagine / accept that few if any Leaguers would aggree to or permit a 12yoa Tim / Robin on the League (there is a great issue of the JLU comic though featuring Robin w/ the League btw).
Ultimately though, the only real reason for their exclusion from JLU was because the staff were not permitted to use them. Remember "Double Date" was originally going to be a Batgirl episode.

[Antiyonder]

I dissagree with the sentiment none of them couldve handled their own in the League though. But I do imagine / accept that few if any Leaguers would aggree to or permit a 12yoa Tim / Robin on the League (there is a great issue of the JLU comic though featuring Robin w/ the League btw).

That would be Justice League Adventures #33.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

Bruce didn't want them to get hurt. Robin is too young for Justice League. I don't think other members would allow him to fight with them.
Batgirl and Nightwing were looking after Gotham City and possibly going to an institute/college. They were just to busy to join Justice League.
It's possible. :sweat:

[1D_]

The Bat Embargo crap, no question they would be around in some way because they show up for Hereafter. Probably just Babs because of the age and RotJ didn't do Tim any favors.



But I do imagine / accept that few if any Leaguers would aggree to or permit a 12yoa Tim / Robin on the LeagueI always thought Gordon should have told him to lose the kid the first time he saw Tim/Robin.

I can think of about 10 -15 JLU member I'd take nightwing over, certainly everybody in Cat and Canary and Double Date, while they (along with SuperGirl) are the most intresting new members I don't see any of them taking NW. I found Batgirl and Tim annoying on TNBA so they weren't missed. One can infer that they were watching Gotham, even that maybe that Batman was away with the JL during the flashback in RotJ which is why Tim was patroling Gotham alone.

[Wolf Boy2]

I like to think that STAS and BTAS/TNBA do not happen side-by-side. I have several reasons for thinking this.

"Last Son of Krypton" happens sometime during Batman's 'year one' time, since he still has a reputation for being a "nutcase." By the end of BTAS, most people knew he was at least semi-good.

I think "World's Finest", "The Demon Reborn" and "Girl's Nite Out" happen during the 2 "lost years" between BTAS and TNBA. "Knight Time" happens shortly after "Sins of the Father." "Legacy" follows "Knight Time." TNBA stories occur during the gap between "Legacy" and "Secret Origins" and during the first season of JL.

"The Demon Within" happens after "Secret Origins", in my opinion. Batman was still a solo operative in JL, and in "A Knight of Shadows" he tries to solve the problem by himself before consulting the League halfway through the episode. Therefore it's not unlikely that he would've resolved the Etrigan issue without bothering the JL. Jason Blood was more help than they would've been anyway.

By this reasoning, JL season 2 would've happened alongside or immediately following the end of TNBA, with Tim being no older than he was in TNBA. Since JLU took place over a couple years or so, Tim would still have been a teenager after "Destroyer."

This also harmonizes with b.t.'s insistance that Batman Beyond takes place 15 years after "now."

[Batlaw]

This also harmonizes with b.t.'s insistance that Batman Beyond takes place 15 years after "now."
Isnt it 50 years after ?

[CapdCrusader376]

Well its defenitly the Bat-Embargo, i read that on "Double date" it was supposed to be more of a Triple Date with Nightwing and Batgirl as the 3rd couple but they werent aloud to use them in JLU, i believe is was an interview with BT, and i believe that Nightwing was up to Par with most of the league and actually a way better asset than alot of the members that were added, but because of the Embargo we dont get to see him, as for the Robin and Batgirl dont care much for but they should have atleast mentioned her.

[SuperBat]

How many people actually read SCB's post? He specifically said he was curious about an in-story reason, not the Bat Embargo.

So to further the conversation, I'll agree with what you said, SCB. I think he expected Batgirl and Robin to watch Gotham, and kind of neglected to include them for their own safety. On top of that, I'm skeptical as to whether or not Tim would've been allowed to join. I don't think Bruce would've asked Nightwing to be watching Gotham at this point, and I don't really think Nightwing would've wanted to be in the League with Batman.

[Trevor Balena]

I don't really think Nightwing would've wanted to be in the League with Batman.
I dunno. I mean, if they hadn't been allowed to use Batman when JL was first starting, I'm sure a lot of us would be saying, "Well, Batman wouldn't have wanted to join, anyway." But as we saw, he eventually saw the value of being on the team.

Similarly, it's easy for us to say that Dick would be too stubborn to accept Bruce's invitation, or too prideful to be on the same team with his former mentor... but Dick is a professional, like Bruce. He, like Bruce, would see how important it is to take his work to the next level. There's no Bludhaven to protect if the whole Earth gets blowed up, right?

So I have to think Nightwing would have been in there if they'd been allowed to use him. As it stands, I alternate between thinking that he was there and we just didn't see him, and thinking that Batman pulled some strings to get around the "no more cowboys" rule and let Dick become one of the "associate" members J'onn mentions in "Divided We Fall", so he can continue to look after Gotham and Bludhaven in Batman's absence but still respond to Omega Level threats.

[SuperBat]

I dunno. I mean, if they hadn't been allowed to use Batman when JL was first starting, I'm sure a lot of us would be saying, "Well, Batman wouldn't have wanted to join, anyway." But as we saw, he eventually saw the value of being on the team.

Similarly, it's easy for us to say that Dick would be too stubborn to accept Bruce's invitation, or too prideful to be on the same team with his former mentor... but Dick is a professional, like Bruce. He, like Bruce, would see how important it is to take his work to the next level. There's no Bludhaven to protect if the whole Earth gets blowed up, right?

So I have to think Nightwing would have been in there if they'd been allowed to use him. As it stands, I alternate between thinking that he was there and we just didn't see him, and thinking that Batman pulled some strings to get around the "no more cowboys" rule and let Dick become one of the "associate" members J'onn mentions in "Divided We Fall", so he can continue to look after Gotham and Bludhaven in Batman's absence but still respond to Omega Level threats.
If the Bat-Embargo hadn't existed, I can easily agree that Nightwing could've and should've been there. But the topic is why Bruce's partners weren't there within the story, and I think that, in-story, it's still the easiest explanation.

Sure, Nightwing would've fit into the JLU easily, but since he wasn't there, we have to assume there was a reason. I could believe that he was there, but never seen. However, it's sort of like imagining that Det. Bullock was murdered before JLU started-- there's no sign of it, so it's easier to think otherwise.

And just to clear things up, I'm not sure I see it as their differences that kept him out. It's more likely that Dick was simply trying to keep things from escalating between he and Bruce again. By that time, living under his shadow wouldn't have been much of an issue.

[Wolf Boy2]

Isnt it 50 years after ?
Yes. That was a typo.


I just doubt Nightwing would join the JLU, since he wants to distance himself from Batman. In "Old Wounds" Dick thought that Bruce was trying to control him -- se why would he join an organization where Batman would literally be his boss? Maybe letting Dick be independent while other heroes like Green Arrow were forced into service was Bruce's way of giving Dick the freedom that Dick always thought Bruce was denying him.

And Batgirl was in London. Like or hate MOTB, it clearly happens alongside JL season 2. Personally, I consider it part of JL more than TNBA because of the digital animation and sly continuity references.

[S.C.B]

Interesting thoughts all around, but I don't think it was the tension between Bruce and Dick that prevented him from being with the JLU. The point of 'Old Wounds' was to show that Dick realised that Bruce wasn't as bad as he had thought, and it is heavily implied that he went to reconcile with him at the end of the episode.

Something I felt about the TNBA episodes when I recently bought the DVD was that the tension between Dick and Bruce was blown way out of proportion by the fans. I was expecting far more turmoil (and Nightwing) than I got. As it stands, it feels more like the banter between, say, Batman and Green Arrow if the worked in the same city. Bruce finds it hard to see Dick as his own superhero, and therein lies the problem. I could see the ingredients for something more, but the show never went there.

But then again, their 'truce' may have been a shaky one, and I agree with Wolf Boy2's point that Dick probably wouldn't like Batman being the boss.

Interestingly enough, it looked like there was a similar situation between Speedy and Green Arrow in 'Patriot Act' (although Arrow is a bit more outwardly patronising towards his 'ex-partner'). Perhaps Nightwing is a reserve member like Speedy and the Crimson Avenger.

[Wolf Boy2]

The point of 'Old Wounds' was to show that Dick realised that Bruce wasn't as bad as he had thought, and it is heavily implied that he went to reconcile with him at the end of the episode.
Exactly! Back during the days of Batman Beyond, fans were saying they wanted to know "what happened to Nightwing". I never wondered. His story was (IMO) completely wrapped up in TNBA.



Interestingly enough, it looked like there was a similar situation between Speedy and Green Arrow in 'Patriot Act' (although Arrow is a bit more outwardly patronising towards his 'ex-partner'). Perhaps Nightwing is a reserve member like Speedy and the Crimson Avenger.
Maybe. Or he could be leading The Outsiders like in the comics. Maybe they were leaving the door open for an Outsiders series.

[Trevor Balena]

Or he could be leading The Outsiders like in the comics. Maybe they were leaving the door open for an Outsiders series.
I always got the impression that every superhero that existed (yeah, except for the Bat-family, and for characters they couldn't use) was drafted into the JLU in one form or another. I got the impression there weren't any other superteams, except maybe the Teen Titans (but those would be heroes that are too young for the League).

Heroes that aren't full-time members are, at the very least, "associates" (mentioned by J'onn in "Divided We Fall", and perhaps including people like Nightwing, Mr. Miracle, and Big Barda) or "reserve members" (mentioned by Mr. Terrific in "Patriot Act", and, as we saw, including pseudo-sidekicks like Speedy and presumably semi-retired guys like Crimson Avenger).

[Simpler Simon]

I'm a fan of the associates/reserve members theory for Nightwing at least. Depending on how you set the timeline, if Nightwing is busy establishing himself in Bludhaven during JLU, he'd be too busy to put in regular league hours. Can't make a name for yourself when you have to commute to Metropolis every other day to fight Mordu, AMAZO, Brainthor, etc.

Robin I've always believed was in the Titans at this point - not the Teen Titans from the Murakami series per sey, but some form of the Titans. Surely if all the superheroes joined together, their kid sidekicks would have a team as well.

Batgirl, I dunno where I'd place - she's not at the same level as Nightwing physically, and she's not as young and reckless as Robin either. I can't see her being an asset to the League at this point.

[Trevor Balena]

I'm a fan of the associates/reserve members theory for Nightwing at least. Depending on how you set the timeline, if Nightwing is busy establishing himself in Bludhaven during JLU, he'd be too busy to put in regular league hours. Can't make a name for yourself when you have to commute to Metropolis every other day to fight Mordu, AMAZO, Brainthor, etc.
Given how gung-ho the Big Seven seemed in "Initiation" for there to be "no more cowboys", I don't think they would have taken, "Yeah, I'm in the middle of a big move, can I get back to you?" as a good enough reason. ;)

I think it's more likely that Batman used his influence to get Dick special dispensation. He probably told the others that he'd devote more time to the League if they let Dick and Barbara stay "associates" and protect Gotham (and Bludhaven) in his absence.

The way I think of the associates is like this: they get a communicator (J'onn was contacting the associates in the normal way in "Divided We Fall"), they have access to the Watchtower when they need it (Miracle and Barda just seemed to be able to walk on in), but they are allowed to do their own thing 99% of the time... unless there's an Omega Level situation, and then they're expected to coordinate their efforts with the League. Which they'd probably want to do anyway, so it's a pretty good deal.


Robin I've always believed was in the Titans at this point - not the Teen Titans from the Murakami series per sey, but some form of the Titans. Surely if all the superheroes joined together, their kid sidekicks would have a team as well.Agreed.


Batgirl, I dunno where I'd place - she's not at the same level as Nightwing physically, and she's not as young and reckless as Robin either. I can't see her being an asset to the League at this point.The writers would have had to make her a bit more competent than she was in TNBA, for sure, but we know they were hoping to have her in what eventually became "Double Date". From the sounds of things, they were going to focus on her intelligence and computer skills in that episode (as a pseudo-Oracle), which would have been a good way to go.

[S.C.B]

Exactly! Back during the days of Batman Beyond, fans were saying they wanted to know "what happened to Nightwing". I never wondered. His story was (IMO) completely wrapped up in TNBA.

I wouldn't say completely wrapped up. There was still romantic tension between Dick and Barbara that was going somewhere, and I personally would have liked to see Nightwing dealing with how easily he was replaced by Tim. But enough was resolved that I wasn't clamouring for him to appear in BB.

When future Barbara said, "Look up Nightwing sometime, has he got stories", I assumed she meant the stuff we saw in B:TAS and TNBA, not some unseen argument between the two. I honestly believe that while they may not talk to each other very often in the BB timeframe, they aren't bitter. Even Bruce and Barbara sit down for tea and crumpets now and then. The only real big thing was between Bruce and Tim, and that was just a matter of dealing with emotions that were too raw after the 'incident'.

Now, I'm not saying everything between Bruce and his partners is sunshine and daisies, but I don't think it's as fraught and super duper angst ridden as many believe, particularly by the time BB ends.

[SuperBat]

I wouldn't say completely wrapped up. There was still romantic tension between Dick and Barbara that was going somewhere, and I personally would have liked to see Nightwing dealing with how easily he was replaced by Tim. But enough was resolved that I wasn't clamouring for him to appear in BB.

When future Barbara said, "Look up Nightwing sometime, has he got stories", I assumed she meant the stuff we saw in B:TAS and TNBA, not some unseen argument between the two. I honestly believe that while they may not talk to each other very often in the BB timeframe, they aren't bitter. Even Bruce and Barbara sit down for tea and crumpets now and then. The only real big thing was between Bruce and Tim, and that was just a matter of dealing with emotions that were too raw after the 'incident'.

Now, I'm not saying everything between Bruce and his partners is sunshine and daisies, but I don't think it's as fraught and super duper angst ridden as many believe, particularly by the time BB ends.
I'm prone to agree with you.

[Simpler Simon]

The way I think of the associates is like this: they get a communicator (J'onn was contacting the associates in the normal way in "Divided We Fall"), they have access to the Watchtower when they need it (Miracle and Barda just seemed to be able to walk on in), but they are allowed to do their own thing 99% of the time... unless there's an Omega Level situation, and then they're expected to coordinate their efforts with the League. Which they'd probably want to do anyway, so it's a pretty good deal.

Ah, so it's the superhero team equivalent of 'friends...with benefits.' Gotcha.

[Toddman]

According to Mystery of the Batwoman, Barbara was studying in London roughly around the time of JL season 2 (MOTB had references to Kasnia, and the JL episode "Maid of Honor").

Two things:

1) In "Mystery of the Batwoman" there's a view from outside Barbara's balcony that shows a clocktower, but I don't think that's supposed to be Big Ben or the London skyline.

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tnba/episodes/00motb/25.jpg


2)True that Kaznia is mentioned in MOTB, but there's no mention of the events referred to in "Maid of Honor."



Toddman

[HaagenDas]

2)True that Kaznia is mentioned in MOTB, but there's no mention of the events referred to in "Maid of Honor."I could have sworn they talk about a Kasnian civil war?

[Toddman]

I could have sworn they talk about a Kasnian civil war?

Well, the Penguin and Thorne are selling weapons to Kasnian group in MOTB, but I don't think they ever state what the purpose of the weapons purchase is or mention a civil war of any kind. Remember that Kasnia has been depicted as a haven for all kinds of illegal international dealings from STAS to BB.


Toddman